#SistersInLaw – Episode 275: "Watching The Watchers"

Release Date: February 4, 2026
Panelists: Joyce Vance, Jill Wine-Banks

Episode Overview

This special "Sidebar" edition of #SistersInLaw turns the focus to listener questions, delving deeper into the pressing legal and political issues facing America. Joyce Vance and Jill Wine-Banks respond to questions on the surveillance of protesters, the illusion of normalcy amid rising authoritarianism, the dynamics between local and federal law enforcement, tools Congress can use to check executive power, and proposals for structural reform in the Department of Justice. Throughout, the hosts invoke both history and contemporary parallels to explore the threats and responsibilities of democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Surveillance of Protesters and Government Databases

(Listener question via audio: Jessica from Hillsborough, NC)

• Legal and ethical implications: Joyce Vance discusses the legality of federal agents photographing protesters and collecting license plate data, noting that while agents are allowed to gather evidence for legitimate investigatory purposes, "they can't trample on Americans' civil rights."
  • "There are some databases where agents collect evidence and that's perfectly legitimate, or at least the law allows it. The no Fly List is one example of that." (02:50)
• Risks and remedies:
  • Getting removed from such lists is unclear; FOIA requests may help but come with personal risks:
    • "I'm quite frankly not sure that there's a legal mechanism...using FOIA, the Freedom of Information Act...comes at a cost, putting yourself on the government's radar screen." (03:50)
  • Recent trends are highlighted, including federal agents in Minnesota being ordered not to engage with protesters.
• Potential retaliation against protesters:
  • Joyce recounts a social media incident where a protester reportedly lost their Global Entry status after attending a protest.
  • "If you believe that steps have been taken to retaliate against you for protest, please reach out to your local ACLU or to other lawyers." (05:53)
• Jill adds: Deep distrust in government handling of such lists, voicing worry over the potential for Americans to end up on the No Fly List for engaging in protest.
  • "[W]e can't trust the government. And so when they say they're doing this database, it is concerning beyond belief." (05:14)

2. Fighting the "Illusion of Normalcy" in American Political Life

(Written question: Pear Jess from BlueSky Social)

• Joyce on democratic vigilance:
  • Discusses her own experience during the early Trump years, surrounded by normalcy while feeling deeply alarmed.
    • "[I]t became clear, clear that the administration had no interest in being a rule of law administration. And I was deeply frightened and everybody around me was like, you are such a drama queen." (08:09)
  • Advocates finding solidarity and seeking out rigorous analysis from historians like Ruth Ben-Ghiat ("Strongmen"), to avoid "being gaslit" into complacency.
  • Cites the civil rights movement's creed: “Never worry alone.”
  • Calls for continuous awareness: "This is a moment to stay woke about what's going on." (09:16)

3. Local Law Enforcement and ICE Cooperation

(Audio question: Dakota, local law enforcement in Durham, NC)

• Jill on local autonomy & sanctuary policies:
  • States and cities can—and increasingly do—refuse voluntary cooperation with ICE, through laws like Illinois' Trust Act, or local policies limiting detention agreements and information-sharing.
  • “Get your county or your state to start restricting detention agreements, limiting information sharing, protecting sensitive locations...” (12:13)
• Legal exposure:
  • Legal recourse is sometimes available if there’s negligence or excessive force.
  • Emphasizes city and state action as a counterweight to federal overreach.

4. Congressional Tools to Curb Executive Power

(Written question: Coal Mine Phoenix, BlueSky Social)

• Beyond impeachment and inherent contempt:
  • Jill discusses legislative and oversight powers Congress already possesses but often fails to assert:
    • "They could use their own power to legislate. They could use their own power to enforce their constitutional rights." (13:54)
  • Senate confirmation powers for appointments cited as an underused check.
  • Points to recent bipartisan resistance as a hopeful sign.
• Joyce on restoring balance:
  • Importance of reestablishing Congressional guardrails and oversight.
  • Cites the impact of the January 6th House Select Committee as an example of effective oversight.
    • “These congressional oversight hearings...have real meaning. The House Select Committee on January 6th did work that changed the way we viewed January 6th.” (15:54)
• Jill adds historical context:
  • Fondly remembers the Watergate-era Senate hearings as a time when oversight led to real legislative and cultural change, contrasting with current polarization.

5. Structural Separation of DOJ and the Presidency

(Written question: Adam, Lexington MA)

• Would an independently elected Attorney General safeguard DOJ integrity?
  • Jill recaps proposals for a separately elected AG (as in many states) and discusses possible legislative pathways.
    • “I worked for the attorney general who is separately elected from the governor. And it really does ease the problems...that the attorney general can investigate freely and fairly.” (17:49)
  • Wonders whether a constitutional amendment would be required but asserts new norms and protections are overdue.
    • "So I think legislation of certain things could happen even if the department weren’t separated with an independently elected attorney general.” (19:22)
  • Cites post-Watergate norms and the need for enforceable rules around White House-DOJ separation.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Joyce Vance on surveillance:
  • “There may be some parallels from the civil rights era and what the FBI did to folks, Martin Luther King and others, and it may be that we'll have to draw on that law to determine the limits of legality.” (03:20)
• Jill Wine-Banks on government trust:
  • “We can’t trust the government. And so when they say they’re doing this database, it is concerning beyond belief.” (05:14)
• Joyce Vance on the need for awareness:
  • “We just cannot do that any longer. This is the moment to reclaim a phrase that Trump likes to throw in our faces: this is a moment to stay woke about what’s going on.” (09:16)
• Jill Wine-Banks on congressional abdication:
  • “As long as they sit there and do nothing and let him do it, he's going to keep getting away with it.” (14:34)
• Jill Wine-Banks remembering Watergate:
  • "I go back to when oversight hearings actually resulted in action, when there was bipartisanship...I dream about returning to that era." (16:50)
• Jill Wine-Banks on structural DOJ reform:
  • "Would it require a separate constitutional amendment? I'm not really sure...But I've seen other cabinet offices...recreated or decreased. So yes, I think there is a need to legislate the norms and policies about separation." (18:06)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:16] — Joyce on the legality and risks of protest surveillance
• [05:05] — Jill raises alarm over government database misuse
• [06:57] — Joyce on resisting the illusion of normalcy
• [11:07] — Jill on local law enforcement autonomy regarding ICE
• [13:51] — Jill on Congress’s lost tools for curbing executive power
• [17:43] — Jill on DOJ independence and potential reform

Tone and Language

The conversation is direct, passionate, and grounded in both legal precedent and personal experience. The hosts speak candidly about contemporary threats to civil liberties, the resilience required of citizens, and the difficult choices facing both policymakers and individuals.

Episode Takeaways

• Vigilance is critical: In the face of government overreach and creeping executive power, citizens and lawmakers must not succumb to the illusion of normalcy.
• Know your rights and remedies: Legal frameworks exist but they're challenged by new technologies and tactics; individuals should document retaliation and seek legal assistance.
• Local action matters: States and municipalities can and do push back on federal overreach, especially in immigration enforcement.
• Congress must reclaim its power: The legislative branch's failure to check the presidency puts democracy at risk—restoring oversight and bipartisan action is crucial.
• Structural reforms need debate: Proposals to transform DOJ independence show that foundational changes may be necessary to preserve checks and balances.