#SistersInLaw – Episode 281: “Order In The Court”

Date: February 25, 2026
Hosts: Jill Wine-Banks & Kimberly Atkins Stohr
Format: Listener Q&A (Sister Sidebar)

Overview

In this lively “Sister Sidebar” episode, legal experts Jill Wine-Banks and Kimberly Atkins Stohr respond to listener questions on a range of topical legal and political issues. Topics include refugee rights under new DHS operations, ballot retention controversies in Georgia, legal liabilities for hiring undocumented immigrants, the impact of civic engagement, decorum at congressional hearings, the limits of presidential pardon power, and the scope of presidential immunity. The tone is engaging, frank, occasionally humorous, and rooted in deep legal expertise.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Operation Paris & Refugee Rights Lawsuit

• Listener Question: Will the plaintiffs succeed in UHA v. Bondi, challenging the detention of legally resettled refugees under "Operation PARIS"?
• Jill’s Response:
  • She’s “optimistic” plaintiffs will prevail.
  • Explanation: Operation PARIS unlawfully targets refugees with valid U.S. status for detention because of delays in completing their lawful permanent residency paperwork, a process which the law does not intend to penalize.
  • A TRO (temporary restraining order) is already in place; arguments for a preliminary injunction have been heard, and the judge’s skepticism toward the government’s rationale bodes well for the plaintiffs.
  • Quote: “I think that he's going to grant a preliminary injunction and that eventually this will go away completely.” (02:58)
• [01:35–03:53]

2. Ballot Retention After Federal Elections

• Listener Question (Kathy, Oregon): Why are 2020 ballots still being stored in places like Fulton County, GA, beyond legal requirements?
• Jill’s Response:
  • Federal law requires ballots be kept for 22 months; in Georgia, state law is 24 months.
  • “Obviously we're way past the 24 months from the 2020 election. So I can't really answer… I don't know why they kept them. It costs money… and they aren't necessary…” (04:31)
  • Exception may exist for ongoing litigation, but in these cases, ballots should’ve been destroyed.
• [04:11–05:46]

3. Hiring Undocumented Immigrants – Legal Risks

• Listener Question (Tim, Chicago): Is it illegal to hire undocumented immigrants, and does the government go after employers as aggressively as it does individual immigrants?
• Kim’s Response:
  • It is unlawful to “knowingly” hire someone ineligible to work in the U.S.; the knowledge and intention of the employer are key.
  • Enforcement is much less aggressive toward employers than immigrants themselves.
  • Quote: “To get to your question, no, I have not seen any particular ramping up… to try to sting people who hire undocumented immigrants… certainly not with the same fervor…” (07:01)
• [05:48–08:05]

4. Beyond “Call Your Congressman” – Effective Civic Action

• Listener Question (Manchu, Blue Sky Social): What can be done about Trump administration illegality, besides contacting Congress?
• Kim’s Response:
  • Stresses importance of citizen pressure, citing public outcry as pivotal in exposing injustice (e.g., Epstein files).
  • Lists engagement options: supporting/volunteering for legal organizations, election work, community outreach, etc.
  • Quote: “If we start calling some tools ineffective, we are throwing in the towel on our democracy.” (10:01)
• Jill’s Addition:
  • Cites historical examples (Vietnam protests, Watergate) as proof of public action’s power to drive accountability.
  • Quote: “Show the power of the people. It really does matter.” (12:17)
• [09:30–13:18]

5. Decorum at Congressional Hearings

• Listener Question (Jean): Are there rules of decorum for congressional hearings, and why weren’t they enforced during Pam Bondi’s appearance?
• Jill’s Response:
  • Yes, strict rules exist; enforcement is up to the committee chair.
  • Pam Bondi engaged in personal attacks and disruptive behavior, which the chair (Jim Jordan) allowed.
  • Quote: “Unless the chair is willing to stop personal attacks and make sure that the rules are enforced, it's never going to happen.” (15:09)
• [13:18–15:18]

6. Checks on Presidential Pardon Power

• Listener Question (D.J., Greensboro): What can Congress do to ensure responsible use of the president’s pardon power?
• Kim’s Response:
  • The pardon power is near-absolute—Congress cannot limit it without amending the Constitution.
  • Citizens should encourage presidents and governors to use clemency for genuine justice, such as relief for the wrongly convicted.
  • Quote: “Clemency is not the enemy when it's abused. It's awful, but it's something that we should be encouraging our leaders to use in a more effective way.” (17:00)
• [15:43–18:00]

7. Presidential Immunity & Prosecutable Crimes

• Listener Question (Marie, Albuquerque): What kind of crime by a president could lead to a ruling on presidential immunity at the Supreme Court level?
• Jill’s Response:
  • Not all presidential conduct is protected—those outside official duties can be prosecuted.
  • “Hush money to Stormy Daniels just because you wrote the check in the White House does not qualify…”
  • DOJ (or a state AG) would need to bring charges to test the limits; federal prosecution unlikely under a Trump-aligned DOJ.
  • Quote: “There are things… just because [they happened] in the White House, [that] does not qualify as something that is subject to immunity.” (18:23)
• [18:00–end]

Notable Quotes

• On civic pressure: “If we start calling some tools ineffective, we are throwing in the towel on our democracy.” – Kim (10:01)
• On the importance of protest: “It was public pressure that got Richard Nixon… to turn over the tapes.” – Jill (12:05)
• On the post-election ballot storage: “So I can't really answer your question because I don't know why they kept them. It costs money to store them…” – Jill (04:31)
• On prosecuting a president: “I think there are cases… which have clearly nothing to do with the president's responsibilities as president that could be challenged.” – Jill (18:24)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Time | |---------------------------------------------|-------------| | Operation Paris lawsuit | 01:20–03:53 | | Ballot retention in Georgia | 03:53–05:46 | | Laws & enforcement: hiring undocumented | 05:46–08:05 | | What actions can citizens take | 09:30–13:18 | | Congressional hearing decorum | 13:18–15:18 | | Limits of presidential pardon power | 15:43–18:00 | | What crimes could test presidential immunity| 18:00–end |

Memorable Moments

• Jill’s history lesson on how old-school public activism changed policy in major political scandals (12:00).
• Kim’s passionate defense of civic activism—even phone banking and postcard writing—as essential democratic tools (10:00, 12:18).
• Jill’s blunt assessment of committee chair Jim Jordan’s failure to maintain decorum (“…because the chair isn’t enforcing them. The chair… was Jim Jordan.” – 14:15).

Tone & Delivery

Conversational, accessible, and empowering—Jill and Kim mix legal analysis with encouragement for listeners to get involved, underscoring the tangible impact of civic engagement on democracy and justice.

Summary prepared for #SistersInLaw, Episode 281: “Order In The Court” (February 25, 2026).