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- [00:10]
A
Welcome back to Sisters in Law with Jill Wine Banks and me, Kimberly Atkins Storr. The US has begun drafting criminal defense attorneys to use because the DOJ is so short. And so that is why Barb and Joyce are not. No, just kidding. Could you imagine? He gets summoned to the doj like, you must prosecute this case against the Larry immediately. No, they are not being held hostage, but they will be back soon. And so it is just Jill Wine Banks and me this week. But that still doesn't stop us from telling you news that all four sisters are very excited about. We are are headed to Rocky Mountain High Colorado, Denver, baby. We will be at the Cervantes masterpiece on April 23rd. Tickets are available at politicon.com tour we can't wait to see you there. And we have some more live shows coming up. Aren't you excited, Jill?
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B
I am. I can't wait to announce them.
- [01:28]
A
It will be great. But, you know, not to bring down the mood, but we have to talk about what this show is about today, Jill. First, we are digging into the fact that there are more Epstein files coming. Imagine that. More files because they were caught not having released them all. Also, we'll get a little bit into the legalities of the war with Iran. We are not like foreign policy analysts, but we can tell you a little bit about what the law is and is not to help you sort of of, you know, manage that story a little bit better. And we're gonna talk about a group of states suing to stop Donald Trump's new round of tariffs after the Supreme Court struck down his first round. But before we get into all of that deep stuff, it is spring. Like, Jill, I don't know about you, like the crocuses were popping up out of the lawn. I've seen some tulips poking through snow. True story. True. But spring is springing, Jill, and it makes me think about my rituals for sp. So I braid my hair. I have done so when the weather.
- [02:35]
B
Right.
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A
Thank you. And I also plant some fresh herbs, which I love. It makes when you cook with fresh rosemary or fresh mint or something, it's so much better than when you use the stuff from a little jar. So what are your spring rituals, Jill?
- [02:54]
B
So first I have to say that I work with a phenomenal trainer who comes to the house and my husband said, your hair got so long. What happened? And she said, well, it's not my hair. I braided it and added extensions. And she was showing him how she weaves the extensions in. So he was really Fascinated. For me, I don't really have a lot of spring rituals, although I always start focusing on what annuals do I want to plant. We're way behind D.C. and I've been following when the cherry blossoms are going to bloom, because I just. I love that. I always wish I could just fly there for the day to see them in full bloom. But aside from thinking about the gardening, this year I'm doing something that is not a spring ritual. But I have decided that it is time for me to really start cleaning house. And I don't mean physical cleaning, sweeping. I mean, like, stuff that I have been accumulating for all the years I've lived in this house. And it's just I've gotten overwhelmed by my possessions. And I am looking to hire someone who will help me to actually carry this wish forward. So that's my spring.
- [04:09]
A
Help it declutter. Like, what was the lady on that show, Kondo, that she came in and she went through all your stuff, and if it didn't spark joy, you had to get rid of it.
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B
Oh, my God. I need her. I need her. I'm going to. I will. I'm going to find someone. I will.
- [04:25]
A
All right, Foreign. The news is more stressful than ever. Isn't that the truth? And I think all of us want to escape. And you can escape to a relaxing tropical beach far away from the craziness. Because even if you don't buy a plane ticket, I got the next best thing for you with Osea Malibu. I feel like I'm in paradise when I incorporate them into my regimen. Right now. I'm really enjoying their dream collection. It's an amazing combo for unwinding and resetting for the day ahead. And it's the perfect way to give your skin a fresh start now that it's spring. You need to try it. Have you tried it, Jill? I love putting it on before bed. Oh.
- [05:18]
B
I not only have tried it, but my husband has tried it, and he loves their products. I am shocked. My husband never used anything, and he just. He liked the smell so much, he thought, I'm going to try it. And he's a big user. So to fill in our listeners, I want them to know that osea's Dream Night Serum and Dream Night Cream are clinically tested formulas as powerful as any retinol that you have ever tried. They're designed to reduce the visible effects of stress, which. Kim, we both have a lot of stress now. Stress on skin while you sleep. I like putting on their dream bioretinol body serum first and I was very excited to try it. It's a brand new full body restorative treatment that visibly distresses the skin with a holistic blend of bioretinol, red seaweed, magnesium and lavender. Then I follow it up with the night cream. Both products are so nurturing and now I wake up with firmer, more moisturized skin that glows wherever I applied it. It doesn't just visibly firm and improve skin elasticity. It also smooths lines and wrinkles with less potential irritation than the traditional retinol of other brands.
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A
Skincare is self care and the dream collection makes it easy to give your skin a rest. Say good night to dryness, dullness, wrinkles and a lack of firmness and say hello to serenity. It's the perfect relaxing ritual and works overnight. In the morning your skin is softer, smoother and more radiant. Both of its products are truly an essential treatment in any bedtime routine and they are so efficient and lead to real transformation in your body and well being.
- [07:16]
B
There really is nothing better for promoting a restful night while visibly firming and improving skin elasticity. And we also love that everything is vegan, cruelty free and comes in sustainable packaging. So don't wait. Give your skin a rest with clean, clinically tested skincare from osea. And right now we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code sisters tenceamalibu.com that's o s e a malibu.com code sisters 10 the link is also in our show notes. Just when you thought the Epstein files couldn't get worse, but also thought they would because otherwise why would Donald Trump and the Department of Justice work so hard to keep them from disclosure as required by the Epstein Transparency Act? But it did. It got much more damaging. First of all, Kim, I want to ask you, how did we know that there were missing 302s that have now been released?
- [08:32]
A
Yes. So as we Talked about before, 302s are the summaries that the FBI makes of testimony that has been given in a case. So in the released Epstein files there also were some indices. So these indices, people were going through them like investigative journalists and other people. And there have been some really good work by them creating searchable files and stuff about what's in there. Well, they noticed that that the this index did not match up with the actual documents that were released and raised some flags about that. And so soon everyone, including lawmakers, was calling on the DOJ to release what they clearly had not released. And by not releasing it, they were violating the law.
- [09:24]
B
I love that you said indices instead of indexes, but so proper you are. Yeah. I mean, there was an index in the Ghislaine Maxwell trial that showed that there were four interviews of a young woman, a woman who talked about when she was like, 13 to 15, being sexually abused, including by Trump. And there was only one of the four interviews in the actual files produced. And so that led to a lot of outrage and saying, you know, we need the others. So, Kim, the one that was released did not mention Donald Trump. It mentioned her being abused when she was somewhere between 13 and 15 by Jeffrey Epstein. And she was interviewed by the FBI in July of 2019. But the other three do mention Trump. So what do we learn from these other three? What is important there? And now that they have been released and we can read the actual interviews.
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A
Yeah, so it's pretty terrible. I should give a trigger warning right here for anybody, and I'm not gonna get deep into details about it, but, you know, just to be safe, I should do that. And these are allegations that were made in these interviews by this woman. Donald Trump has, you know, has denied any wrongdoing with Epstein and otherwise. But this testimony from this woman, who you said was a teenager, a young teenager at the time, barely a teenager, that she was introduced through Epstein to Donald Trump and that she did meet Trump and that Trump attempted to assault her and she got away by biting him, but also gave other information that about the relationship between Trump and Epstein, that it seemed to be a relationship that had gone on for some time, that they, Trump had spoken, had seemed jealous of Epstein for a while, but sort of seemed like he, you know, came up enough to not have to be jealous of him anyway. I mean, it's really interesting in that it paints this picture of two individuals that were deeply in each other's circle and that Donald Trump was, at the very least aware of the abuse was going on and at worst, perhaps participating. Again, this is just her accusations, but that's what was in. That was in these transcripts.
- [12:05]
B
So let me just say, as a prosecutor who has read multiple 302s, hundreds of them, these are particularly stark in their allegations and includes the. That at the time could have and should have been investigated. Yes, there was a lot of there there. And the FBI seems not to have followed up on this for some reason, and that's of interest to me. There are many clues that could have confirmed or proven untrue her allegations, but none of that happened, and it should have. So now here we are. It's 2026. These interviews were in 2019, but the abuse was when she was 13, not in 2019. And I just want to point out she met him because he called for babysitting services and she went to babysit for his non existent children. I'm talking about Epstein. Yes, Epstein. He, Epstein. That's how she met Epstein, who then introduced her to Trump. So what about the statute of limitations? Because these crimes are really old. So let's look at both federal law and state law, because these crimes, you know, sexual abuse of a minor are both federal and state crimes.
- [13:42]
A
Yes. So in most states, and I think in most of the states where it would be relevant here in the Epstein cases, there is either an extremely long or no statute of limitations at all when it comes to the abuse of a child. Now, the length of it can sometimes depend on what the age of the child was when they were abused. But generally speaking, for example, under federal law, there is no statute of limitations when it comes to the abuse or rape of a child. But in some of the states where Epstein has properties, there are varying ones. In Florida, for example, if the victim is under 16, there is no statute of limitations. But there may be one if it was a teenager that was older than that. There's no statute of limitations for criminal prosecution in South Carolina, meaning that charges could still be filed. Now, a problem with that, of course, is evidentiary. The longer a case is, it becomes more difficult, if not impossible, to try. So, you know, this is a sort of a rhetorical argument in some sense, but New York has the New York Child's Victim act, and the statute of limitations lasts until a victim turns 28 years old. And for civil lawsuits, they may file a claim until they turn 55 if the. If the victim is under 11, no statute of limitations at all. And also in New Jersey, there's no statute of limitations. So it depends on the jurisdiction as to when a case could be brought. But as I said, the longer it
- [15:28]
B
takes, the harder it is as a matter of proof. At trial, memories go stale and people just don't have the detail anymore that they would have had even in 2019. I mean, seven years is a long time. Most statutes of limitations are five years for that particular reason. And you're mentioning states where it is possible that she was abused because.
- [15:53]
A
Yes, either.
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B
It could have been Florida, New York, New Jersey. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I want to ask you, as a journalist and as a citizen, what do you think should happen now? To an investigation that should have started seven years ago. And what's likely to happen or result?
- [16:14]
A
Yeah, you know, I think that the public should continue its pressure on the Justice Department to follow the law and live up to the promise that Trump made on the campaign trail and release all of these documents. The reason that we have this extra little tranche, the reason that we got the documents that we got when we did, was because the people pressured their government officials to get it out. And Congress passed a law, and now the DOJ has to abide by a law that they've been violating for a while, because this was all supposed to be done weeks ago. But it's that kind of pressure. So I feel like the more that we learn, the more that that drumbeat is, and it's just in that way is proof of democracy in action. And so in that, I'm very heartened by it. The House Oversight Committee has been interviewing and subpoenaing at times, people to testify about this, whether it's their alleged involvement or with respect to the investigation. And I know Pam Bondi is set to give a deposition behind closed doors. If it's behind closed doors, might there actually be information that is, you know, credible and usable to get behind what happened there? Perhaps because, you know, we've seen her in public hearings where she's essentially hot dogging for a audience of one. So will she actually act like an attorney, like, with some sense in these closed door depositions? We'll see. But I think that the fact that the public has kept pressure up is why these members of the House are acting. That's why we got that bill passed. And that's the only way we get closer to full transparency and the kind of full investigation and justice that these survivors deserve.
- [18:10]
B
You know, I've lived to see how public pressure does make a serious difference. And I know people keep writing to us saying, don't tell me to write to my Congress, because what good does it do? I'm telling you folks, it makes a difference. Call, write, email, send letters, send telegrams, if they still exist, a postcard, it really mounts up. And they do keep track of what people are saying. So it does make a difference. Keep the pressure up, because that's the only way there will be accountability. And we owe it to the survivors of this abuse. And there are at least a thousand of them, according to estimates. So make sure you keep up the public pressure. If you aren't concerned about microplastics and cleaning products, you should be. They aren't good for us Our families, our pets, our world. And most people don't realize they're bringing them into their homes every day. That's why we've made the switch to Blueland across all the cleaning products in our homes, especially at the start of the year when we're rethinking routines and trying to build more sustainable habits at home. Certified by Cradle to Cradle Blueland products meet the highest standards of clean. They're effective yet gentle on people and the planet.
- [19:46]
A
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- [20:13]
B
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A
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- [21:54]
B
You know, affordability has become a key political word. And that's because it seems like nothing is affordable these days and that anything you buy falls apart way too fast. Now it's all about quality and cost. Especially in my closet. If it's not well made and versatile, it's just not worth it for us. That's why we love Quince. Their fabrics feel elevated, the cuts are thoughtful and the pricing actually makes sense to fill you in. Quince makes high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100% European linen, 100% silk, and organic cotton poplin. Working directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. That means you're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing.
- [22:50]
A
Yeah, you know, sustainability means a lot to me, and so does high quality clothing. And it's nice not having to choose between the two here. They have so many must have items. And their lightweight cotton cashmere sweaters are perfect for the changing season, especially with their can't miss seasonal colors and prints for spring. Cause spring has spring. At least it's trying to spring, and so you gotta be ready for it. Most importantly, all of their pieces are versatile, well made, and make getting dressed simple. Plus, Quince uses 100% European linen. Their cotton poplin is crisp and holds its shape. The gauze is soft without being flimsy. And from the stitching to the fit and the fabrics, everything Quince makes is built to hold up season after season. These are pieces you'll reach for over and over. That's true, Jill. I have a couple of pieces from Quince that I, you know, bought like, in the early days of the pandemic. And I've washed them a thousand times, and they're still so, so good.
- [23:54]
B
They are an amazing product. And when you choose Quince, you're getting smart, stylish, and effortless clothes at prices you'll love. The cashmere is so cozy in the cold. I personally love their wraps. And in Chicago, even in summer, it's cold indoors because air conditioning is set way too cold for me. So I love having that cozy thing that I can put over me. Everyone needs Quince washable stretch silk blouse. I wear mine a lot. It's great under suits, but it's also great just with pants. And it's the star of the show. The material feels amazing, and the style is perfect for relaxing at home or taking care of business. There's nothing better for looking your best. And now that the weather is getting nicer, well, it is. We have rain, but we have, like 60 degrees this week in Chicago. So it is getting better. And that means the ultimate workout motivation is new activewear from Quince.
- [25:01]
A
Quince Clothing is consistently rated 4.5 to 5 stars by thousands of customers. Real people like us who wear these pieces every day and truly love them. So stop waiting to build the wardrobe you actually want. You don't need a closet full of options. You need pieces that work right now. Go to quince.com sisters for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will. And some good news, Quints is now available in Canada too. So if you're in Toronto, our friends in Vancouver, you know, in St. John's you can get quints now too. It's great, great news. I love. Those are some of my favorite places by the way. I do love them. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q U I n c e.com sisters for free shipping and 365 day returns. Again, that's quince.com sisters and the L link is in the show notes. Well, if it looks like a war and smells like a war and claims the lives of American troops like a war, it seems like a war to me. But so much about the US and Israel's military attack on Iran which has sparked wider conflict in the region has been left unexplained by the administration, including the reason why we got the US into this and whether it even is a war. It's a big mess. But luckily my sister in law is a former US General Counsel of the army, the first woman to hold that position, by the way. So let's start with the basics. Jill. Can a president even declare war without consulting Congress first?
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B
Well, that is the $64,000 question. Although that may be a dated reference that no one knows anymore because there used to be a TV show called the $64,000 Question which was a lot of money when there was a TV show. That name.
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A
I love that show.
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B
Oh you remember it. Oh I'm so glad.
- [27:12]
A
Okay.
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B
Yeah. So I also before I answer your question, I just have to point out that the late night comic shows have all featured Mark Wayne Mullen soon, well, maybe nominated now to become the Secretary of DHS to replace the fired Kristi Noem. And he was saying in one sentence it's a war. No, it's not a war. Well you said it's a war. Well no, they said it's a war. Well no, I mean I think if we could include in our show notes the clip of him saying it's a war. It's not a war. Yes, it sure looks like a war. It's not a declared war because no one has declared a war or has authorized the use of force. And those are things that the Constitution gives the power of Congress. And the reason they give it to Congress is because when you put Americans lives at risk service members, it is deemed that it should be Something that the public supports. And the way you know that the public supports it is if their representatives in Congress, Senators and members of the House vote a war resolution or authorize the use of military force. And that's why we have the Constitution saying that. But there is a small conflict because although Congress is given that power in Article 1, in Article 2, the President is made the commander in chief of the military, which means he can command and order them to do certain things. And in this day and age where Congress has ceded much of its power, its power of the purse, its power to declare war, the President can get away with doing this. Yes, I think the Constitution requires that Congress do this. There is also a law that was passed because of the Vietnam War to stop presidents from expanding wars that says that the President can do certain things, but only for like 60 days. And then if Congress doesn't authorize the action, it's over. The President can extend it for 30 more days. So then you're talking 90 days. But again, it's over if Congress doesn't approve it. So that's where we are. I believe the Constitution gives the power to Congress and that the action of bombing a foreign country when it's not attacked us, it's not retaliatory, it's not self defense, is unconstitutional and illegal.
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A
It was really wild to see so many members of Congress who support the President saying when, when asked point blank on in television interviews, where does the war. Who has the war power? They kept saying, oh well, Article 2 of the Constitution gives the President the power to take decisive action when American interests are in. And it's like, did, did you miss the whole first article? Not, not just the whole first article of the Constitution, but the one that created your job like this is literally your job. And they were all twisting themselves in us anyway. So the horse is out of the barn when it comes to Article 1 powers. But Congress, Congress wasn't powerless. Jill, to my point, tell us about their effort to rein in Trump when it came to Iran.
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B
Well, let me start with the conclusion. The effort failed, but it's not over.
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A
It could, I mean, it's not funny though. I mean it's really, it's awful. It's, it's the abdication of their.
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B
It is, but they do need some effort. Let's, let's just, you know, let's give credit where credit is due. There was an effort. The War Powers Resolution that was introduced by Representatives Massie and Ro Khanna failed to get the proper number of votes. And that was because because strangely enough, there were some Democrats who went with the Republicans and said, no, they didn't want to limit Trump's powers. And there were some Republicans who voted with the Democrats to say, yeah, this is a power that we have and Trump doesn't and we want him to enforce it. You know, Massey said, the Constitution is clear. Our Constitution provides Congress initiates the powers of war. And so he was trying through this resolution with Ro Khanna to get it. But there were some Republicans who said, well, I'd like to shorten the war powers resolution from 60 days to 30 days, and if he doesn't get our approval in 30 days, then we have to stop it. Well, you know, that isn't how it should be, but even that hasn't passed. So right now it's just a defeated resolution. And I hope that they will get their act together and agree that at some point in time they will not fund it and they will take action to preserve their power as Congress because they've become pretty much useless. I mean, what's even a worse word than useless? They really aren't doing their job.
- [32:46]
A
Remember all this when you cast your votes in the midterms, ladies and gentlemen, vote for people who are willing to do the job. Well, one reason, one rationale behind the rules we have about engaging, engaging in war and who can do it is because it is the most important and solemn decision that I think most elected officials can make is entering into that. And that is because of the great risks that it poses people, particularly our service members, who put their lives on the line. And that's why historically we have seen President and administration officials treat military strikes and wartime or military casualties with the solemnity they deserve. But Jill, President Trump and Secretary Hegseth are not usual. What have they said about the. As of, I believe as of this recording, six service people have lost their lives in this mission. What have they said about them making the ultimate sacrifice?
- [34:01]
B
So let me emphasize something you referred to, which is the solemnity of a declaration of war or of engaging in a war and the risk to service members and their families who will lose some of them. And back in Vietnam, because it was a draft at the time, it made a big difference because it wasn't an all volunteer force as it is now. And people were like, I don't want to go and fight for a stupid war that I think is not justified. And that made a big difference in how war was conducted. But Trump said, and I just want to quote him, as one nation, we grieve for the True American patriots who have made the ultimate sacrifice for our nation, even as we continue the righteous mission for which they gave their lives. Sadly, there will likely be more before it ends. That's the way it is.
- [35:03]
A
Okay, that's the way it is.
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B
I'd say that that last sentence, that's the way it is, shows total disregard and disrespect for the men and women who are risking their lives in this particular engagement. And then we have Hegseth, who basically treated it like it was a PR problem rather than a recognition of the service and an honor to recognize the fallen. He said this is what the fake news misses. This was at a Pentagon briefing on Wednesday. He avowed that the United States was winning decisively in the battle against the Islamic Republic. But when a few drones get through or tragic things happen, it's front page news. I get it. The press really only wants to make the President look bad, but try for once to report the reality. Well, the reality is that people have died. And it's not just Americans who have died. Other people have died and more will die as Iran continues to engage in strikes in multiple countries and aiming at Israeli and US targets. But beyond that, other Middle Eastern countries are being hurt and there's a chance we'll run out of anti drone missiles and that more will then hit. So. But the big question is, how do you treat the caskets of the fallen? And I remember when in 2003, President George W. Bush forbid the coverage of the caskets and the reason was PR because it was turning America against the war. They could see the consequences.
- [37:02]
A
And.
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B
And he issued a bar against the press covering the return of caskets. President Obama eliminated that bar and opened it up again. And now who knows what the Pentagon's going to do. They certainly don't want any publicity about the returning members of the service who have lost their lives in this.
- [37:26]
A
I mean, that's literally. They're hiding the dead. They're hiding the dead as opposed to going to their funerals, attending them, you know, doing this whole saying their names, thanking them for their sacrifice, thinking their families, thinking their families.
- [37:46]
B
One of the excuses used was, oh, we can't do this because it will invade the privacy of the families. Oh, it will not. Families will appreciate the recognition for the service of their loved ones. And the alternative that's being proposed is that the press cover the memorials so that they can talk more about the details of the person. Talk about invading the privacy is going to the funerals. So, you know, Representative Vindman and Senators Duckworth and Kelly have spoken strongly against what the president and the secretary of Defense have said. But I wonder, Kim, as a journalist, what do you think about should the press cover the return of the caskets? What do you think is the right balance?
- [38:37]
A
I don't think you hide the dead in your coverage. I don't think. I mean, I just am gobsmacked by Hegseth saying that the only reason the press covers our fallen troops is to make the president look bad. Are you kidding me? Do you? I mean, that is so insulting to the families. Yeah, you don't want to be intrusive. I mean, as a young journalist, I covered funerals of public officials or local people that in the community. It's a horrible thing to do. It's terrible. But it puts something more than a name to the loss you covering what the the impact of the war is. And that includes grieving families. That includes lives that were promising that were ended too soon. So, yeah, it is a part of it. It's not a fun thing to do. But saying that it's just an attempt to throw mud at the president is outrageous. Spring cleaning season is here, so get rid of your lumpy old mattress and wake up rested and ready to take on the longer days with Helix. After all, great sleep is critical to success, and there's nothing better for sleep than a Helix mattress. I first heard about them when they asked to sponsor our show, but we're very selective here on Sisters in Law, so we of course wanted to try them out. And as our sister Joyce has mentioned, she can't stop talking about them. In particular, she has one in every room in her house because she aced the Helix Quiz, which tailors your mattress to your sleeping style. Joyce matched with the Helix Midnight mattress and joined us in getting the best sleep of her life. Ever since. Tossing and turning is a thing of the past. Now our families are getting them, too, and they love finding their ultimate fit.
- [40:45]
B
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- [41:18]
A
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- [41:47]
B
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- [44:28]
A
Yes. So the language itself authorizes a president to impose, quote, temporary import surcharges not exceeding 15% ad valorem for a maximum of 150 days. Now to do this, it has to be under the Statute, a fundamental international payment problem, including a large balance of payments deficit or imminent dollar depreciation. So this sounds like a, to me, this is me talking now, not the language. This sounds to me. Okay. I'm not a tariffs expert, but like if something imminent happens financially, such as payments not being made or you know, the dollar tanks unexpectedly, that the president can have for a limited time, 150 days some space to maneuver a little bit with tariffs just to get you through that little bump. This does not sound to me like it authorizes, you know, tariffs of 10 or 15% on various countries, willy nilly indefinitely. But that's just me.
- [45:40]
B
Right. And of course he used it for global impacts. It's on every country except he does make some exceptions and we'll talk about that a little later because those are
- [45:52]
A
basically, he is trying to recreate the struck down tariff, just plugging it into a different statute and seeing if it.
- [45:59]
B
And you are right because the reason this was passed was the dollar used to be pegged to gold. And there was a time, and this law was passed in 1974 when it looked like the gold standard was going to tank the dollar. And so they passed it. So it is a very specific, it's limited 150 days and it is limited to a balance of payments or a tanking of the dollar and not anything else. So before we get to discussing that detail of what is a balance of payment versus a trade deficit, which is what Donald Trump is saying, and they're not the same. But so what are they asking for in this lawsuit? We need to understand that first.
- [46:46]
A
Well, they're asking for them to be stopped, to declare them illegal and also refund whatever money they've been collecting off of them immediately. Because, you know, you see, we're now we're in, we have this problem with the other struck down tariffs. How do you even refund them and will they all be refunded? Probably not because they went on for so long. So they're like hold the phone and give that money back now. So they, they're asking for them to be enjoined from carrying this out.
- [47:16]
B
And as I read what they have put forth in their argument in this request to enjoin the implementation of this tariff, they have some pretty good arguments. So and one of them is this difference that we've been talking about. Balance of payment versus.
- [47:35]
A
Yeah, balance of payment.
- [47:36]
B
So let's, let's get into that a little bit.
- [47:39]
A
Yeah. So in the, in their briefs, the Democrats argue that global tariffs are not under the language of this, because this statute clearly says balance of payment, and that is a specific thing. That is, if a transaction that, that has to do with specific transactions taking place in real time, that does not mean a trade deficit, which is a big, you know, big concept that, that Trump still hasn't even defined how we, how he gets to the trade deficits that he claims with these countries, but that one country is benefiting more from a trade deal than another, and that it's unfair and that creates a deficit, and so that the countries have to react. That is not a balance of payment problem. In fact, the brief argues that balance of payment problems don't even happen anymore because of just modern banking.
- [48:36]
B
Like, because gold standards ain't anymore.
- [48:40]
A
Yes. It's like just the fact that we no longer have, you know, the, the fixed rate exchange system that, you know, you're, you're see, you're checking to see what gold is doing on a particular day to know what's gonna. We don't do that anymore.
- [48:54]
B
Exactly. And a trade, that part of the statute, we buy more from overseas than we export overseas. And that's not what they. This law is intended for. So even if we have a trade deficit with a country, this law doesn't apply. And there's another interesting argument which has to do with the argument that was had before the Supreme Court on iipa. And the government in that case basically said, we have to use IIPA because Section 122 isn't applicable to here, so we have to use this other law. So they've made these obviously inconsistent arguments. And is there a way around that? Is there any answer to that?
- [49:44]
A
Well, for this particular litigation, no, they're absolutely right. This does not apply to this statute at all. It just doesn't apply. Now, it's interesting. I was actually interested when the government tried to argue this. I suppose maybe they thought it was the quickest way. But if you recall, in the Supreme Court decision striking down the first tariffs under I eapa, there was a dissent by Justice Brett Kavanaugh which basically was like trying to do the work of White House counsel, saying, well, yes, you can't do it under this one. But look, there are all these other statutes that a president can use that if these circumstances apply, he may be able to do, like Brett, like Brett Kavanaugh is basically trying to do from the Supreme Court. So I'm actually surprised that they didn't immediately issue an executive order. That's basic, exactly what Kavanaugh said, and then declare that. But I think those the difference between those statutes is they don't have the same emergency powers that the president uses, which is why he did it just at the stroke of an executive order, as opposed to going through the proper administrative process to try to impose these tariffs. So I think that's the answer to the question. But, yeah, yeah, you know, it's so
- [51:08]
B
odd that a president with total control of Congress, he has the majority in the House and the Senate and they can impose tariffs. Why isn't he going to them in the same way? Why isn't he going to them for war powers? They can declare a war. Don't you think he can convince his own members that they should support it? Well, obviously they couldn't.
- [51:30]
A
So I don't think he thinks he needs to because he's just been doing things on his own and for the vast majority of the time, he get away with it. And also what a blessing to these Congress people who support him because they don't have to put their names on it. They don't have to get their hands dirty and explain to their constituents why they backed this tariff which is killing American businesses. They can just say, oh, well, it's the president's job under Article 2. It's covering their backsides, too. So it's just a particular tidy little messed up thing that's going on here.
- [52:02]
B
Kim, I note that no Republicans have joined as plaintiffs, even though the damage in their states will be as severe. And why do you think that that's happening and why are Republicans saying it's happening?
- [52:19]
A
Yeah, I think that it is. As I said, I think they're covering themselves the same way that Republicans in Congress are. They don't want to either. For the ones in Congress, they don't want to be attached to terrorists that are unpopular. And for those outside, they don't want to get on Donald Trump's bad side because they see no future if that happens. They're really beholden. State Republican parties are really shockingly beholden to the president, even those that are, even some Republicans in bluer states, states or so. So, you know, they didn't feel comfortable doing that in this particular environment. But as you said, Jill, I suspect, I know the attorney general of California, you know, said he thought that secretly that they were rooting for them to win because they are at least hearing from their constituents about the, the impact of these tariffs and that they want, you know, just what it's doing to businesses, what it's doing to the economy. It's hitting states and local communities, too. So they know that it's bad, but politically they can't. They gotta watch their words, too.
- [53:40]
B
I, I think honestly that it is really fear of Donald Trump. And the attorney general of Oregon said, I think in the current political environment, it's very difficult for Republicans to join on to a case like this challenging their party's leader. We absolutely know that there are free trade Republicans out there and they should be supporting this, but they're really afraid. And as you said, they probably are hoping that the Democrats prevail in this. So let's look at what happens if the Democratic plaintiffs win the injunction, which they are confident that they will. It's going to go to appeals courts and eventually to scotus. You're our SCOTUS expert. So what do you think is going to happen? And will it be irrelevant? Because the 150 days, and that was the advantage of IEEPA, it was a permanent thing, only 150 days. So they didn't want to go with something that was only 150. Although they're now saying, well, we'll use this as a bridge till we figure out another way to do it.
- [54:48]
A
Right, Right.
- [54:49]
B
So will this even be decided by the time the 150 days expire?
- [54:55]
A
Yeah, it's. Well, first of all, if the Supreme Court keeps it consistent and fires up that shadow docket like it's been, they can totally, totally weigh in before, before this 150 days also. Yes. If there is not so to, to have a question that the court is able to take up, it can't be moot. Which means that the issue before it can't have already resolved itself. And what Jill is asking is, because this is only for 150 days, if it gets to the court after that, will they just say, oh, well, it's moot, we can't act on it? Not necessarily. There are exceptions to the mootness doctrine, such as things that are able and likely to be repeated. So if Trump's just gonna, you know, right after that, fire up a bunch of other ones and think, oh, I got 150 days. No, if the Supreme Court knows that they could do that. And listen, I'm out of the game of predicting what the Supreme Court will do other than rule in Trump's favor. But they did rule against him in the tariffs case and based on the language of the statute, and I feel like this statute is even clearer than the IIPA provision that was in question in the first one. So I do think the possibility is greater that they would strike it down in fact, that they could do it on the shadow docket without full briefing and stuff this time. So I don't know. That's just my hunch, but I could be wrong.
- [56:24]
B
Well, it sounds like a tax being imposed by the President, even though that is a power the Constitution gives to Congress, not the president. Even 122 says it's five months unless Congress acts. So it's just another power grab by President Trump in his quest to be I don't know what to call it, an authoritarian dictator and one that creates more economic chaos with Americans having to foot the bill. So where is Congress on this and how fast will it get to court and be resolved? Running a small business can get crazy. I know that because my husband runs a small antique store. So make this the year to simplify your workflow and take things to the next level. Whether it's a law firm, a podcast, or an antique store, you want to focus on the cases, the show, or client management instead of the stuff that feels like busy work. Unfortunately, there are a ton of hats to wear. It's distracting and can take the focus off your mission. That's why we wanted to tell you about Gusto. It's perfect for anyone who wants to take charge of their operation. And I know that in addition to my sisters, there are so many law firms and other small businesses that would benefit.
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A
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B
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A
that can save you so much money, time and worry. And best of all, it's quick and simple to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast. Plus you don't have to pay a cent until you run your first payroll. Don't just take our word for it. Gusto was named the number one payroll software according to G2 in fall 2025 and is trusted by over 400,000 small business. Join them and start optimizing your business. Try gusto today@gusto.com sisters and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months free payroll@gusto.com sisters one more time gusto.com sisters and the link is in our show notes. Now we are at what is truly, truly our favorite part of the show, which is answering listener questions. If you have a question, you can email it to us@sistersinlawolitikon.com or tag us on social media using Sisters in Law. If we don't get to your question during the show, we will want you to tune in on Wednesdays to our new show Sister sidebar, where we answer even more questions. As I said, that drops every Wednesday, so don't forget to check that out, too. Today's first question comes from Kelly on Instagram, who asks what's to stop the DOJ from simply destroying incriminating documents from the Epstein files that they don't want made public. Jill?
- [60:57]
B
Well, I love that question because it brought me back to the days of why didn't Richard Nixon destroy the tapes? And he didn't for very silly reasons. And then we quickly subpoenaed them, and as soon as we subpoenaed them, it would have been a crime to destroy them. And at this point, it is a crime to destroy them because they have been requested, demanded, required under a law that was signed by Donald Trump into law. And so you can't just destroy them at this point. Maybe they could have gotten away with it earlier, but I think that would have left everyone with the same feeling that we now have, which is, is man, there must be some pretty damaging information in those documents or they wouldn't be fighting against releasing them.
- [61:58]
A
Okay, our second question comes from Shelley in Mount Pleasant, Michigan. Hey, Shelly, that's not far from where I grew up, so thanks for listening. Regarding the Epstein files, why isn't it a crime to have visited the island and not reported the crimes going on there? That's a great, great question. It gets to the laws that require people to report criminal activity when they see it. Overall, Shelly, those are very rare. The general rule is that people, if they witness a crime, are not required to report it. If you see somebody doing what looks like clearly looks Like a drug deal, when you're walking down the street, you do not have a duty to turn around and run to your police office and report it. But for child abuse, and that includes child sexual abuse, there are some exceptions to that. It depends on the state or the jurisdiction. I should say his island is in the U.S. virgin Islands. And there, there is a duty of mandatory, mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse, but it's only for a certain class of people and they tend to be people like teachers, therapists, home health workers, things like that. So if you are an average citizen and you don't hold one of those positions, no, there is not a mandatory, there is no mandatory requirement that you report crimes. Now, you may be a witness to it if they are investigated by someone else, but that is why. And our final question comes from Carla in Phoenix who asks, are there any legal roadblocks to bringing back the draft? Wow. Could Trump do it unilaterally? Jill?
- [64:02]
B
This relates of course to the conversation we were having about the war powers and about whether you can cover caskets as the press. And the answer is the draft was abolished. And so you would have to create a draft system both in terms of having a law that allows the drafting of U.S. citizens. You'd have to set the rules about whether women could be drafted.
- [64:31]
A
Now.
- [64:32]
B
Now in the old days it was just men and it was only in a certain age range. But now women are accepted into the military and so would men and women be drafted. That would be part of the legislation. And no, it can't be done unilaterally. It would take Congress to pass in both houses and then the president to sign or Congress to override a veto if he should decide to veto. And, and the draft, it was interesting to watch it be abolished and the change it made and how we perceive the military. We now have a much more professional military because they are all volunteers. But at time of war you have to wonder, will we have enough? In the same way we're worried, do we have enough anti ballistic missiles to survive the drone attacks? And, and the drones cost like 20,000. Our ballistic missiles are in the millions. So it's a disproportionate spending. But yeah, he can't do it unilaterally.
- [65:37]
A
Well, thank you for listening to Sisters in Law with Jill Winebanks and me, Kimberly Atkinstore. We miss Joyce and Barb and can't wait to have them back. And we hope to see you all in Denver at our live show at the Cervantes masterpiece on April 23rd. Tickets are available at politicon.com tour so make sure you get them before they sell out. I think all of our shows have sold out, Jill, that we've done, so you better get your tickets.
- [66:07]
B
Yes, they have been. Of course they were.
- [66:10]
A
Yeah. So don't forget to pick them up. And also pick up some Sisters in Law merch for the show and other goodies@the politicon.com merch. And don't forget to check out our sister podcast, Sister sidebar on Wednesdays. And show some love to this week's sponsors, Osea, Malibu, Blueland, Quint, Helix, and Gusto. The links are in our show notes. Please support them because we can't make this show without them. See you next week with another episode. Sisters in Law Quince is now available in Canada too. So if you're in Toronto, our friends in Vancouver, you know, in, in St. John's you can get quince now, too. It's great, great news. I love. Those are some of my favorite places, by the way. I do love them.
- [66:57]
B
I. I hope they still like us.
- [67:03]
A
They love us.
- [67:04]
B
I mean Americans, not you and me.
- [67:07]
A
Well, they love us like we're not. All right, we probably need to cut that out of the ad.
- [67:13]
B
Couldn't help myself when you said we love Canadians. I don't. Anyway, sorry. Cut that all out. I got carried away.
- [67:23]
A
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C
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