Podcast Summary: #SistersInLaw – Episode 286: The Old Cyber Ninjas

Date: March 14, 2026
Hosts: Joyce Vance, Jill Wine-Banks, Barb McQuade
Producer: Politicon
Main Theme: Political/legal analysis of recent government actions around election investigations, DOJ ethics rulemaking, and AI company lawsuits

Episode Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into the federal government’s continued scrutiny of the 2020 election in Arizona, focusing on the new FBI investigation targeting the Maricopa County audit and the infamous Cyber Ninjas. The hosts also tackle DOJ’s controversial proposed rule around state bar oversight for DOJ lawyers, and the escalating legal battle between Anthropic (an AI company) and the Department of Defense. The conversation is interwoven with the signature sharp wit, camaraderie, and wisdom of the three attorneys.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. FBI Investigation in Maricopa County, Arizona

[06:45 - 15:03]

Current Story: Republican Arizona Senate President Warren Peterson revealed he had complied with a federal subpoena for records from the 2020 election audit in Maricopa County.
Distinction from Fulton County: Unlike the Fulton investigation, the FBI isn’t after ballots, but rather the audit files themselves. Ballots were destroyed by law after two years ([07:45]).
Audit’s Legitimacy: The Maricopa audit (run by Republicans and Cyber Ninjas) found that Biden actually had more votes than originally reported. "Not only did Donald Trump lose Arizona, but the audit showed that Biden won by more" (Jill, [07:45]).
Cyber Ninjas Fiasco: Cyber Ninjas, a Florida company led by a Trump supporter, were inexperienced and ultimately confirmed Biden’s victory, before filing for bankruptcy. “Even the Cyber Ninjas found [the election] was legitimate. Really seems like a bridge too far.” (Barb, [09:20]).
Political Motives: Despite repeated confirmations of the election result, the Trump camp appears intent on undermining trust in voting and setting up future election challenges. “There's no legitimate reason [for another review]...I can't think of anything except to try to degrade public trust in the vote going forward.” (Jill, [10:56]).
Blue Pen Incident: “You don’t make markings in blue pen, which, of course, is exactly what they did”—an audit no-no that forced a halt and fueled suspicion. (Joyce, [12:04])
Current Democratic Officials' Stand: Arizona’s Secretary of State and AG advised local officials not to comply with DOJ demands for full voter rolls, warning such disclosure would “violate both federal and state law” ([13:33]). They promise resistance and potential litigation.

Memorable Quote:

“Everything old is new again, but if you hear about an effort in your state to collect voter roll information, be grateful if your Secretary of State opposes it...” (Joyce, [15:03])

2. DOJ Rulemaking on State Bar Ethics Investigations

[25:01 - 43:23]

Background: AG Pam Bondi announced a DOJ rule to review bar complaints against DOJ attorneys before state bars could act—ostensibly to prevent “weaponization” of grievances.
Controversy: Many legal groups, including the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and Illinois Bar, oppose the move as undermining state authority for legal discipline. “This is a ridiculous evasion... to put DOJ lawyers above the law, above state's control” (Jill, [29:20]).
Potential for Abuse: The new rule is ambiguous if DOJ “clears” a lawyer, possibly blocking further state investigation (Barb, [31:30]).
Supremacy Clause Debate: The hosts discuss whether DOJ can actually preempt state licensing under the Constitution, concluding it’s likely a weak legal argument. “I think the Supremacy Clause argument is completely flawed and will not fly” (Jill, [34:11]).
Rulemaking Process: Joyce quickly explains the federal notice-and-comment rulemaking process, highlighting the importance of public input ([35:43]).
Model Rules & Importance: Jill details the ABA Model Rules of Professional Responsibility, “...the rules were really clarified and changed after Watergate because so many lawyers were defendants...” ([38:47]).
Predictions: States will resist; litigation is likely. “I think DOJ is likely to try to go ahead with this, but it may rebound on them.” (Joyce, [42:19]).

Notable Exchange:

“So, what's going to happen next? Is the federal government going to start disciplining barbers or deciding who gets to be a truck driver?... more of what we've come to expect from this administration.” (Jill, [43:00])

3. Anthropic vs. Department of Defense: AI, Morality & Retaliation

[46:36 - 58:56]

Background: AI company Anthropic refused to let the Pentagon use its products for large-scale surveillance or military targeting, citing ethical concerns. DoD retaliated by blacklisting them.
Anthropic’s Stand: “Anthropic stood up to the bully... and filed two lawsuits against DoD” (Jill, [50:14]).
Dual Lawsuits:
- California Suit: Focuses on First Amendment grounds, claiming government retaliation and seeking to block enforcement of their “supply chain risk” designation ([51:07]).
- D.C. Circuit Suit: Demands judicial review of the supply chain risk designation, arguing that the same contractual provisions exist with OpenAI—implying bias and retaliation ([52:12]).
Danger for Innovation: “There’s a big danger... it could put Anthropic—a company with great integrity—out of business.” (Jill, [50:14])
Judicial Outlook: The panel predicts Anthropic has a strong legal case but faces steep political and financial obstacles. “You know, they could win the battle but lose the war.” (Barb, [57:25])
Broader Implications: The Pentagon using these powers against a U.S. company is unprecedented. “[This] makes the lawsuit stronger, because it really casts this in the vein of lawsuits that courts have been very eager to see the last of.” (Joyce, [54:25])

Memorable Quote:

“DOD is just a four-year-old throwing a temper tantrum, saying if you won't give us what you want, we'll retaliate against you.” (Joyce, [54:25])

4. Attacks on First Amendment & Press Freedom at DoD

[58:16 - 60:06]

New Restriction: Pentagon leadership is now banning journalists and photographers who don’t follow restrictive “rules,” including asking tough questions or publishing unapproved photos.
First Amendment Concerns: “While this clearly violates the spirit of the First Amendment, lawyers will have to carefully assess how to position the legal arguments before court” (Joyce, [58:56]).
Call to Action: The hosts encourage public outrage to prevent normalization of these attacks on transparency.

5. Lightning Round: DOJ Overreach in JAG Corps & DoD

[60:06 - 61:41]

Jill mentions DoD’s suspicious restructuring of military/civilian lawyers and possible violations of the Posse Comitatus Act (military involvement in civilian matters).
Links and opinion pieces will be posted in the show notes for further reading.

6. Listener Q&A

[63:52 - End]

Epstein & Maxwell Cases: Barb clarifies the timeline and recommends Maureen Comey should testify to a House committee ([64:42]).
Why hasn’t Trump sued accusers of sexual misconduct?: Joyce explains that Trump avoids defamation cases on these topics for fear of opening himself up to court scrutiny ([66:52]).
Who runs the 988 crisis line?: Jill researched and explained 988 is a federally funded, confidential national suicide and crisis lifeline administered through HHS, but executed by local crisis centers ([68:52]).

Memorable Quotes:

“You just dial 988.” (Jill, [70:30])
“Draw your own conclusions… from the fact that Donald Trump has not sued, at least not so far, over what are highly significant allegations…” (Joyce, [66:52])

Notable Quotes & Moments

On the Cyber Ninjas:
“Even they, in the end, confirmed that Joe Biden had won Arizona at the time. So the idea that there's. Now we're relitigating an investigation that even the Cyber Ninjas found was legitimate really seems like a bridge too far.”
— Barb, [09:20]
On DOJ bar rule:
“This is a ridiculous evasion of our normal way of disciplining... to put DOJ lawyers above the law, above the state's control, and to make it something that DOJ controls.”
— Jill, [29:20]
On DoD’s supply chain blacklist:
“Anthropic stood up to the bully refused to cave. And what has it done? It filed two lawsuits against DoD once they carried out their threats...”
— Jill, [50:14]
On Press Freedom at DoD:
“The Secretary of Defense is such a child that he says, well, you know, I don't like this picture that you took of me. I had a couple of hairs out of place. ...this is a guy who wants flattering lighting.”
— Joyce, [58:56]

Important Timestamps

[06:45] – Start of the Maricopa County / Cyber Ninjas discussion
[25:01] – DOJ ethics rulemaking controversy begins
[35:43] – Joyce explains federal rulemaking and notice-and-comment
[38:47] – ABA Model Rules and their Watergate origins
[46:36] – Anthropic/DoD lawsuits and AI company story
[58:56] – First Amendment & press freedom concerns at DoD
[60:06] – DoD's restructuring and possible legal overreach
[63:52] – Listener Q&A

Takeaways for Listeners

The FBI’s renewed investigation in Arizona centers on undermining trust, not uncovering new electoral fraud.
DOJ is seeking to shield its lawyers from state discipline, likely exceeding its authority and prompting legal pushback.
The federal government’s treatment of AI innovator Anthropic over ethical objections signals looming battles over technology, national security, and government retaliation.
Hosts consistently underscore the importance of government transparency, vigilance around voting rights, and public accountability mechanisms.

Note: Ads, intros, outros, and unrelated tangents (such as sponsor plugs and the lemon dump cake recipe discussion) have been excluded from this summary.

Podcast Summary: #SistersInLaw – Episode 286: The Old Cyber Ninjas

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. FBI Investigation in Maricopa County, Arizona

[06:45 - 15:03]

Current Story: Republican Arizona Senate President Warren Peterson revealed he had complied with a federal subpoena for records from the 2020 election audit in Maricopa County.
Distinction from Fulton County: Unlike the Fulton investigation, the FBI isn’t after ballots, but rather the audit files themselves. Ballots were destroyed by law after two years ([07:45]).
Audit’s Legitimacy: The Maricopa audit (run by Republicans and Cyber Ninjas) found that Biden actually had more votes than originally reported. "Not only did Donald Trump lose Arizona, but the audit showed that Biden won by more" (Jill, [07:45]).
Cyber Ninjas Fiasco: Cyber Ninjas, a Florida company led by a Trump supporter, were inexperienced and ultimately confirmed Biden’s victory, before filing for bankruptcy. “Even the Cyber Ninjas found [the election] was legitimate. Really seems like a bridge too far.” (Barb, [09:20]).
Political Motives: Despite repeated confirmations of the election result, the Trump camp appears intent on undermining trust in voting and setting up future election challenges. “There's no legitimate reason [for another review]...I can't think of anything except to try to degrade public trust in the vote going forward.” (Jill, [10:56]).
Blue Pen Incident: “You don’t make markings in blue pen, which, of course, is exactly what they did”—an audit no-no that forced a halt and fueled suspicion. (Joyce, [12:04])
Current Democratic Officials' Stand: Arizona’s Secretary of State and AG advised local officials not to comply with DOJ demands for full voter rolls, warning such disclosure would “violate both federal and state law” ([13:33]). They promise resistance and potential litigation.

Memorable Quote:

“Everything old is new again, but if you hear about an effort in your state to collect voter roll information, be grateful if your Secretary of State opposes it...” (Joyce, [15:03])

2. DOJ Rulemaking on State Bar Ethics Investigations

[25:01 - 43:23]

Background: AG Pam Bondi announced a DOJ rule to review bar complaints against DOJ attorneys before state bars could act—ostensibly to prevent “weaponization” of grievances.
Controversy: Many legal groups, including the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and Illinois Bar, oppose the move as undermining state authority for legal discipline. “This is a ridiculous evasion... to put DOJ lawyers above the law, above state's control” (Jill, [29:20]).
Potential for Abuse: The new rule is ambiguous if DOJ “clears” a lawyer, possibly blocking further state investigation (Barb, [31:30]).
Supremacy Clause Debate: The hosts discuss whether DOJ can actually preempt state licensing under the Constitution, concluding it’s likely a weak legal argument. “I think the Supremacy Clause argument is completely flawed and will not fly” (Jill, [34:11]).
Rulemaking Process: Joyce quickly explains the federal notice-and-comment rulemaking process, highlighting the importance of public input ([35:43]).
Model Rules & Importance: Jill details the ABA Model Rules of Professional Responsibility, “...the rules were really clarified and changed after Watergate because so many lawyers were defendants...” ([38:47]).
Predictions: States will resist; litigation is likely. “I think DOJ is likely to try to go ahead with this, but it may rebound on them.” (Joyce, [42:19]).

Notable Exchange:

3. Anthropic vs. Department of Defense: AI, Morality & Retaliation

[46:36 - 58:56]

Background: AI company Anthropic refused to let the Pentagon use its products for large-scale surveillance or military targeting, citing ethical concerns. DoD retaliated by blacklisting them.
Anthropic’s Stand: “Anthropic stood up to the bully... and filed two lawsuits against DoD” (Jill, [50:14]).
Dual Lawsuits:
- California Suit: Focuses on First Amendment grounds, claiming government retaliation and seeking to block enforcement of their “supply chain risk” designation ([51:07]).
- D.C. Circuit Suit: Demands judicial review of the supply chain risk designation, arguing that the same contractual provisions exist with OpenAI—implying bias and retaliation ([52:12]).
Danger for Innovation: “There’s a big danger... it could put Anthropic—a company with great integrity—out of business.” (Jill, [50:14])
Judicial Outlook: The panel predicts Anthropic has a strong legal case but faces steep political and financial obstacles. “You know, they could win the battle but lose the war.” (Barb, [57:25])
Broader Implications: The Pentagon using these powers against a U.S. company is unprecedented. “[This] makes the lawsuit stronger, because it really casts this in the vein of lawsuits that courts have been very eager to see the last of.” (Joyce, [54:25])

Memorable Quote:

“DOD is just a four-year-old throwing a temper tantrum, saying if you won't give us what you want, we'll retaliate against you.” (Joyce, [54:25])

4. Attacks on First Amendment & Press Freedom at DoD

[58:16 - 60:06]

New Restriction: Pentagon leadership is now banning journalists and photographers who don’t follow restrictive “rules,” including asking tough questions or publishing unapproved photos.
First Amendment Concerns: “While this clearly violates the spirit of the First Amendment, lawyers will have to carefully assess how to position the legal arguments before court” (Joyce, [58:56]).
Call to Action: The hosts encourage public outrage to prevent normalization of these attacks on transparency.

5. Lightning Round: DOJ Overreach in JAG Corps & DoD

[60:06 - 61:41]

Jill mentions DoD’s suspicious restructuring of military/civilian lawyers and possible violations of the Posse Comitatus Act (military involvement in civilian matters).
Links and opinion pieces will be posted in the show notes for further reading.

6. Listener Q&A

[63:52 - End]

Epstein & Maxwell Cases: Barb clarifies the timeline and recommends Maureen Comey should testify to a House committee ([64:42]).
Why hasn’t Trump sued accusers of sexual misconduct?: Joyce explains that Trump avoids defamation cases on these topics for fear of opening himself up to court scrutiny ([66:52]).
Who runs the 988 crisis line?: Jill researched and explained 988 is a federally funded, confidential national suicide and crisis lifeline administered through HHS, but executed by local crisis centers ([68:52]).

Memorable Quotes:

“You just dial 988.” (Jill, [70:30])
“Draw your own conclusions… from the fact that Donald Trump has not sued, at least not so far, over what are highly significant allegations…” (Joyce, [66:52])

Notable Quotes & Moments

On the Cyber Ninjas:
“Even they, in the end, confirmed that Joe Biden had won Arizona at the time. So the idea that there's. Now we're relitigating an investigation that even the Cyber Ninjas found was legitimate really seems like a bridge too far.”
— Barb, [09:20]
On DOJ bar rule:
“This is a ridiculous evasion of our normal way of disciplining... to put DOJ lawyers above the law, above the state's control, and to make it something that DOJ controls.”
— Jill, [29:20]
On DoD’s supply chain blacklist:
“Anthropic stood up to the bully refused to cave. And what has it done? It filed two lawsuits against DoD once they carried out their threats...”
— Jill, [50:14]
On Press Freedom at DoD:
“The Secretary of Defense is such a child that he says, well, you know, I don't like this picture that you took of me. I had a couple of hairs out of place. ...this is a guy who wants flattering lighting.”
— Joyce, [58:56]

Important Timestamps

[06:45] – Start of the Maricopa County / Cyber Ninjas discussion
[25:01] – DOJ ethics rulemaking controversy begins
[35:43] – Joyce explains federal rulemaking and notice-and-comment
[38:47] – ABA Model Rules and their Watergate origins
[46:36] – Anthropic/DoD lawsuits and AI company story
[58:56] – First Amendment & press freedom concerns at DoD
[60:06] – DoD's restructuring and possible legal overreach
[63:52] – Listener Q&A

Takeaways for Listeners

The FBI’s renewed investigation in Arizona centers on undermining trust, not uncovering new electoral fraud.
DOJ is seeking to shield its lawyers from state discipline, likely exceeding its authority and prompting legal pushback.
The federal government’s treatment of AI innovator Anthropic over ethical objections signals looming battles over technology, national security, and government retaliation.
Hosts consistently underscore the importance of government transparency, vigilance around voting rights, and public accountability mechanisms.

Note: Ads, intros, outros, and unrelated tangents (such as sponsor plugs and the lemon dump cake recipe discussion) have been excluded from this summary.