CZM Rewind: 30-50 feral hogs

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sixteenth Minute (of Fame) – Episode: CZM Rewind: 30-50 Feral Hogs

Podcast Information:

• Title: Sixteenth Minute (of Fame)
• Host/Author: Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts (Hosted by Jamie Loftus)
• Description: Sixteenth Minute (of Fame) is a weekly show that delves into the internet’s most notable characters and events. Hosted by Jamie Loftus, the podcast combines reporting, interviews, and personal reflections to explore phenomena ranging from enduring memes to complex issues like consent in the digital age. The show seeks to contextualize individuals' moments of fame (or infamy) within the larger societal landscape.
• Episode: CZM Rewind: 30-50 Feral Hogs
• Release Date: January 7, 2025

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1. Introduction and Episode Context

June 02, 2025 – [02:23]

In this episode, Jamie Loftus revisits a standout episode from the previous year titled "30-50 Feral Hogs." Due to a postponement caused by Jamie’s severe bout with COVID-19, this re-airing serves as a deep dive into a viral moment that captivated the internet. The original episode centered around a particularly bizarre Twitter exchange involving musician Jason Isbell and a user named Willie McNabb, leading to widespread online discourse about feral hogs and gun control.

Quote:

"So this week, let's revisit the hogs." – Jamie Loftus [02:23]

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2. The Viral Twitter Exchange

August 4-6, 2019 – [00:00 - 09:52]

The episode begins by setting the stage with two tragic mass shootings that occurred within hours of each other in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, Ohio. These events triggered a national outcry for gun control, leading to intense online debates.

Amidst this somber backdrop, Willie McNabb tweeted a perplexing question:

"Legit question for rural Americans. How do I kill the 30 to 50 feral hogs that run into my yard within three to five minutes while my small kids play?" – Willie McNabb [09:34]

Jason Isbell responded skeptically:

"If you're on here arguing the definition of assault weapon today, you are part of the problem. You know what an assault weapon is, and you know you don't need one." – Jason Isbell [08:53]

This unexpected exchange juxtaposed the dire conversation about assault weapons with a seemingly unrelated query about feral hogs, sparking widespread confusion and amusement online.

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3. Analyzing the Feral Hogs Phenomenon

Jamie Loftus's Analysis – [09:52 - 17:47]

Jamie delves into why Willie McNabb's tweet became a viral sensation. She identifies five elements that made the "30 to 50 feral hogs" tweet particularly humorous and memorable:

1. Use of "Legit question": Adds a formal tone to an absurd scenario.
2. Wide Range (30-50): Feels like a census-like query.
3. Qualifier "small kids": Implies a vulnerability without addressing the implied threat.
4. Tone of Genuine Concern: Presents a bizarre situation in a matter-of-fact manner.
5. Vivid Imagery: Conjures an absurd yet alarming picture of hogs threatening children.

Quote:

"It's the weirdest phrasing of a question that the person seems to genuinely be asking." – Jamie Loftus [14:15]

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4. Feral Hogs: The Real Issue

Expert Insights with John Tomechek – [21:09 - 32:19]

To provide depth, Jamie interviews John Tomechek, an associate professor at Texas A&M University and chair of both the National Feral Swine Task Force and the Texas Feral Swine Task Force. Tomechek explains the origins and impact of feral hogs in the United States:

• Historical Introduction: Brought by Christopher Columbus and Spanish conquistadores as a food source.
• Rapid Reproduction: Their ability to breed continuously without seasonal constraints leads to exponential population growth.
• Environmental Damage: Causes extensive destruction to crops, timberlands, and native ecosystems, costing millions annually.

Quote:

"We're fighting a human-created problem, that we essentially engineered these animals to be as effective at doing what they do." – John Tomechek [26:53]

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5. Willie McNabb’s Journey and Impact

Interview with Willie McNabb – [41:27 - 67:57]

Jamie converses with Willie McNabb, whose tweet inadvertently thrust him into internet fame. Willie shares his background:

• Early Life: Grew up in rural North Carolina, accustomed to hunting and firearms from a young age.
• Current Life: Runs a construction and manufacturing business in Arkansas, dealing with feral hog issues.
• The Tweet’s Aftermath: Faced overwhelming media attention, legal challenges, and personal safety concerns due to the viral nature of his tweet.

Willie reflects on how the incident highlighted the disconnect between rural and urban perspectives on issues like feral hogs and gun ownership.

Notable Quotes:

"I had to hire an attorney...I spent $10,000 in legal fees." – Willie McNabb [59:15]

"This is something that affects everybody. If you don't think it affects you and your geography, just wait because it will." – John Tomechek [32:19]

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6. Carl Cassarda’s Perspective on Assault Weapons and Cultural Divide

Interview with Carl Cassarda – [75:17 - 83:12]

Carl Cassarda, creator of the YouTube channel InRange TV, discusses the complexities surrounding the term "assault weapon" and the cultural rift it represents:

• Terminology Issues: "Assault weapon" is a politically charged term without a clear, universally accepted definition, unlike "assault rifle."
• Cultural Divide: Highlights the stark differences in firearm perceptions between rural and urban Americans.
• Ableism in Gun Ownership: Argues that certain firearms like the AR15 may be necessary for self-defense in rural areas where law enforcement response times are longer.

Quote:

"We're not speaking the same language. They just aren't." – Carl Cassarda [82:44]

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7. Broader Implications and Current Reflections

Jamie Loftus's Reflections – [74:54 - 89:58]

Jamie synthesizes the discussions, emphasizing the intertwined nature of firearm debates and real-world issues like feral hogs:

• Invasive Species Parallel: Draws a metaphor between invasive animals and invasive societal issues.
• Lack of Progress in Gun Legislation: Notes that five years after the incident, gun laws remain largely unchanged, while feral hog populations continue to pose significant threats.
• Community Impact: Highlights ongoing efforts, such as Dion Green’s work with the Fudge Foundation, to support communities affected by gun violence.

Quote:

"You're going to hear the opinion of a person that's a big proponent of self-defense rights." – Carl Cassarda [83:12]

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8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Jamie’s Closing Remarks – [89:32 - End]

Jamie wraps up the episode by acknowledging the unresolved complexities of both feral hog management and gun control. She underscores the importance of understanding diverse perspectives and the need for comprehensive solutions that address both societal and environmental challenges.

Final Quote:

"Gun laws are stagnant. The hogs are loose. But at least Willie McNabb and Jason Isbell got to hang out at a concert one time. That's not nothing." – Jamie Loftus [88:02]

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Key Takeaways:

• Viral Moments Can Highlight Deeper Issues: Willie McNabb’s tweet served as a catalyst for broader discussions on environmental management and gun control.
• Cultural Disconnect: There exists a significant gap between rural and urban viewpoints, exacerbated by platforms like Twitter that favor one perspective over another.
• Complexity of Firearm Legislation: Terms like "assault weapon" are fraught with political and definitional challenges, hindering meaningful legislative progress.
• Environmental Impact of Invasive Species: Feral hogs represent a substantial ecological and economic threat, necessitating effective management strategies.
• Personal and Community Resilience: Individuals like Willie McNabb and organizations like Dion Green’s Fudge Foundation demonstrate the importance of community support in addressing both environmental and societal issues.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "I tell this story to people and, and they never laugh. But it's the sort of thing that's like, it's almost funny, but it's a little too weird to be an actual joke." – Jamie Loftus [13:32]
• "We're fighting a human-created problem, that we essentially engineered these animals to be as effective at doing what they do." – John Tomechek [26:53]
• "I'm a proud resident of Arkansas." – Willie McNabb [41:27]
• "They don't know how to fix it to balance the production with the animal." – John Tomechek [29:48]
• "You’re on here arguing the definition of assault weapon today, you are part of the problem." – Jason Isbell [08:53]
• "We're not speaking the same language. They just aren't." – Carl Cassarda [82:44]

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Final Notes:

This episode of Sixteenth Minute (of Fame) offers a compelling exploration of how a single social media interaction can unravel complex issues spanning environmental management and gun control. Through insightful interviews and thoughtful analysis, Jamie Loftus invites listeners to reflect on the societal and cultural underpinnings that shape such conversations.

Transcript

[Jamie Loftus]

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[Jason Isbell]

What you all did five months ago.

[Willie McNabb]

Was one of the most painful moments.

[Jason Isbell]

In the history of this company.

[Carl Cassarda]

Our message got out. We're famous. All of us equally. Or one of us is like the star.

[Jamie Loftus]

What did you see?

[Willie McNabb]

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[Jamie Loftus]

If you want to find out what happened to her, I'll help. She's still alive.

[Willie McNabb]

I want to see my wife.

[Jason Isbell]

He should have left Severance.

[Carl Cassarda]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Jamie Loftus]

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[Carl Cassarda]

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[Jamie Loftus]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Jamie Loftus]

On my jacket and the guy next to me sitting in a pool of perspiration insists on sharing my armrest.

[Carl Cassarda]

Next time, make an appointment with an Amazon One medical provider. There's no waiting and no sweaty guy. Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.

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[Jamie Loftus]

Hi everybody. Jamie here. You'll notice there are is not a new episode this week. It is because I am so sick. I have Covid so bad. So instead of the hawk to a series starting this week, it's going to start next week. I think it's going to be worth the wait. I have watched every second of Talk to a I I and I just am excited for you to hear it, but I need a little time to recover. So with that in mind, we're going to be re airing the winner of your favorite episode of last year, 30 to 50 feral hogs. The only other reminder I have for you today is I will be on tour in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Portland, Oregon later this month at Full Health. And the links are in the description. I would love to see. Their tickets are running low in Portland, so get yours now without further ado, I'll see you next week to hog to a spit on that discourse. But this week, let's revisit the hogs. Bye. Nine years ago, someone very close to me died. And shortly after that, something very funny happened. The person in question was old, but not dying old, had been sick but was not dying dying sick. Someone about to die wouldn't be a night owl with an encyclopedic knowledge about SNL and professional hockey. They just wouldn't. But then one day it was. They died suddenly and terribly. The sort of loss where I still find myself wanting to pick up the phone 10 years later and try to explain what a podcast is to them. I really miss them. And it was a huge shock at the time, and everyone was still very in shock when the funeral happened. It had been this really hectic week, right? Like, no one saw it coming or knew what sort of shape affairs were in. Half of us were still actively in denial. I brought some loser I was dating to the wake. Why did I invite him? Why did I invite him? It was a Catholic funeral and we were all instructed to either read something from the Bible or just say a few words. I hope you haven't been through this, but I know that you very likely have. So the night before I said my few words, I stayed up late drinking PBR and writing out a set. And then I had to keep reminding myself, it's not a set, it's. It's a eulogy. A eulogy is not stand up comedy unless you're really good at it. At the service the next morning, I sat next to someone that I'm very close with. He had his notes for what he was going to say and was pretty quiet. And before we were supposed to go up and speak, he leaned over to me and asked, hey, like, should we give our Twitter handles before we talk? Like, do you think this is a good opportunity to get new followers on Twitter? It was this really strange moment, you know, because something so, so terrible had just happened. And then this was said. I tell this story to people and, and they never laugh. But it's the sort of thing that's like, it's almost funny, but it's a little too weird to be an actual joke. It's just completely absurd in this way that you can never get out of your brain. And if you were asking, yes, I did read my Twitter handle, definitely don't do that at your grandma's funeral. O I said who it was in that moment. If something just sad was said or something just funny was said, I probably wouldn't remember this moment as well as I do. It's just something in between. In August 2019, many terrible things happened on the same day. In Dayton, Ohio, and El Paso, Texas, there were mass shootings within hours of each other. First in El Paso, when a white nationalist entered a Walmart with a semi automatic weapon and killed 23 people. That same day, in an entertainment district in Dayton, a man used an AR pistol to kill nine people. And even in a country where these types of shootings had become increasingly commonplace, according to 2023 research from the Pew Research center and also anecdotally from being a person, active shooter events in the United States have steadily increased since 2000, over 20 times over. And so on this weekend in August 2019, the whole world went into mourning for the victims of these senseless, horrible shootings. And as the days lurched on, online discourse on the many horrific questions that the shootings introduced began. While journalists worked to report on them as clearly and faithfully as possible. And, and in fact, it involves some of the main players in this show. The executive producer of this show, the great, wonderful Robert Evans, who has definitely never falsely accused me of murder, famously reported on the El Paso shooter, detailing his radicalization online on 8chan before he resolved to become a domestic terrorist, which was a part of a disturbing trend that continued from earlier that year, most notoriously the Christchurch mosque shooting in New Zealand. These murders, stoked by white supremacy, had everything to do with the Internet. The Internet was where shooters became radicalized and where they would often livestream their own atrocities. And so, after two mass shootings in the same weekend, a familiar question emerged. How do we stop this? What will we need to change to fucking stop this? The days that followed restocked a debate that raged in real life and online spaces with increasing frequency. And Democrats put pressure on then Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, the devil's pet turtle, to cancel the Senate summer recess to reopen a discussion on gun control. He didn't. And so people were frustrated. Their leaders weren't doing anything. And so many took to the Internet as they had in the past and. And hoped that saying how they felt would accomplish something. Many demanded action on gun control. Many mourned the victims of these shootings, and many started a familiar discourse around the weapons that were used to slaughter people. And among these people were public figures weighing in, as they tend to do. One was American singer songwriter Jason Isbell. On August 4, 2019, he tweeted, if.

[Carl Cassarda]

You'Re on here arguing the definition of assault weapon today, you are part of the problem. You know what an assault weapon is, and you know you don't need one.

[Jamie Loftus]

So as the world mourned and tried to figure out what they could do in a world where normal people are so often rendered powerless, people began to yell at each other on the Internet. And then, to everyone's surprise, something kind of funny happened. A Twitter user who I would describe as a random guy, a normal man, Willie McNabb, responded to this tweet from Jason Isbell. He says the following.

[John Tomechek]

Legit question for rural Americans. How do I kill the.

[Jamie Loftus]

Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Yes, that tweet. Okay, Grant, you can finish.

[John Tomechek]

Legit question for rural Americans. How do I kill the 30 to 50 feral hogs that run into my yard within three to five minutes while my small kids play?

[Jamie Loftus]

So in the absolute middle of this awful moment, people stopped and asked, wait, what the fuck did that guy just say? 30 to 50 feral hogs. Your 16th minute starts now. Give me one moment. Okay, you sickos, I'll give you what you want. And what you want is what many rural communities have been plagued by, which is 30 to 50 feral hogs. It's feral hogs day. On 16th minute, one of our most requested main characters, bar none. And like every single one of the Internet's main characters, all 30 to 50 feral hogs come with a lot of personal baggage. So let's throw some feral bacon into the feral pan. But before we do, just one quick note. In a rare showing of keeping my mouth shut for 40 minutes, I'm not going to get into my detailed opinions on gun control at the very top of this episode, although I'm sure you can guess what they are. I'm not a fan of guns, and that's not the case for everyone I'm speaking with today. And each of them are going to explain why that is. And with that, come with me, if you will, to August 2019, the first death from vaping as reported in Illinois. Jeffrey Epstein is found dead in his prison cell. Under very normal circumstances, I'm performing at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival with a show called Boss Whom is Girl, in which I play a demented girl boss hell bent on killing an island full of DJs using surveillance technologies. It got good reviews. And following two horrific massacres in the United States, back to back, a man from Arkansas named Willie McNabb asked how he could kill the 30 to 50 feral hogs that run into his yard within three to five minutes while his small kids play. I'm gonna say it. This is one of the funniest things that's ever happened on the Internet for me. Like, you get it. Replying to a conversation denouncing people who are getting overly into semantics about assault weapons after two horrific mass shootings with a question about 30 to 50 feral hogs is weird. It's confusing to most people. It makes no sense. I was one of those people. Willie McNabb, what are you talking about? Everything about the feral hogs tweet is so funny, it's great American poetry. Now, here are my top five funny things of the feral Hogs tweet. Your mileage may vary, and I actually do encourage you to share it with me. Number one, starting a statement about feral hogs with the phrase legit question. Number two. 32, 50. It's such a wide range, it feels like a census taker's question. Number three, the qualifier that the kids are small, which kind of goes without saying, right? But it feels like it's sort of implying that 50 feral hogs would be less threatening to larger children. Number five, the tone of the question. Overall, the way that Willy phrases this makes it sound like this is something that was on the tip of everyone's tongues and he's the first person brave enough to articulate what we were all thinking. Number five. Of course, the imagery, a father gunning down feral hogs. Like a game of Halo in your high school boyfriend's basement.

[Willie McNabb]

Game over.

[Jamie Loftus]

The image of small kids surrounded by malevolent hogs, the only line of defense being an assault rifle, and between three and five minutes, just say four minutes. As sad and bizarre as the circumstances that prompted this reply tweet are, it is awesome. And it squarely puts Mr. McNabb in the category of of main character. That was not intentional, because, again, this was just a reply. It's like every person who replies to dunk on Elon Musk and raise their own profile was doing it with the expectation of becoming the most famous person on the Internet. On top of that, the reply tweet itself isn't really accusatory. It's just the weirdest phrasing of a question that the person seems to genuinely be asking. And so, interestingly, the reason that Willie becomes Internet famous doesn't seem to be the algorithm itself. It's because of Jason Isbell. So let's go full forensic. Let's talk about how this happened. Willie asks the question of our time, that of the perilous hall at 12:01pm Eastern Standard Time on August 4, 2019, which is the day of the Dayton, Ohio massacre and the day after the El Paso, Texas massacre. After the reply Jason Isbell quote tweets Willie McNabb three minutes later at 12:04pm Responding with the following pithy if you.

[Carl Cassarda]

Have dozens of hogs chasing your children around your yard, you have problems no weapon will fix.

[Jamie Loftus]

He then adds, at 12:08pm I don't.

[Carl Cassarda]

Think William is serious, guys, and Willie.

[Jamie Loftus]

McNabb is having none of it. He retorts, at 12:11pm no sir, I am. And now we as passive viewers know that Willie McNabb is ready to go to the mat for this. And look, I know it sounds like I am like rehashing and pausing the Zapruder tape, but it is significant. It is clear 10 minutes in that Willie McNabb is, for whatever reason, willing to go to the mat with a public figure on this topic. Shots had been fired, only this time not from an assault rifle and not at a murderous ping. But, and I can confirm this as someone who was observing this unfold in real time, very few people on Twitter seem to have any idea what Willy is talking about. And so at first, instead of trying to understand what he's talking about, they make fun of him. People went nuts on Twitter over this reply tweet, and it seemed like for many this was almost a breath of fresh air, a little bit of absurdity to joke about while processing the horrors of the world. And we do get some pretty solid riffs on the treacherous hog, like these 30 to 50 feral hogs sounds like my dating history.

[Carl Cassarda]

Take me down to the paradise city where the hogs are feral. In this 30 to 50 my therapist.

[Jamie Loftus]

30 to 50 feral hogs can't hurt you. They aren't real. 30 to 50 feral hogs in my yard threatening my children. And finally, my favorite take a long.

[John Tomechek]

Drag from my cigarette as I stare out of my foxhole, hollow eye at the tree line, the distant sounds of oinking coming nearer and nearer as the sun sets, the cold steel of my AR15. The only thing that stands between those hogs and my kids behind me.

[Jamie Loftus]

So this reply tweet spawned news articles, podcast episodes, a flash mini game where you're playing as Willy and your goal is to mow down as many hogs as quickly as possible in 8 bit. This is as close to a seminal main character experience as you can get. And as a first timer to the main character game, Willy McNabb makes what many would consider to be a rookie mistake. He posts his way through it, and while in most cases I would discourage this behavior, all main characters, especially when it's from something weird or innocuous as opposed to actually offensive, are advised to acknowledge their main characterhood, then either fake their own death or start a rap career. Posting through it almost never helps, because random Twitter users also have a vested interest in proving themselves to be the world's most normal person, and Willie McNabb is very much caught in the middle of it. So who is this guy? At the time of Feral Hoggate, Willie's.

[John Tomechek]

Twitter bio read, husband, father, Christian Libertarian, West Carolina University alum, and fan of Pearl Jam and Red Sox.

[Jamie Loftus]

But critically, his profile also reveals that he lives in rural Arkansas. Collectively, all of these things add up to he is some guy who has decided to post through it after Jason Isbell, quote, tweeted him. But in this case, Willie's posting through it is part of why this story is so interesting. He was not going to back down. No sir, I am. But the thing he was not backing down on wasn't gun control, it was Feral Hogs. Willy spars against other Twitter users who connect his hog problem and gun advocacy with his personal politics. He tweets at 12:24pm Funny thing about.

[John Tomechek]

These responses I would challenge any of you to find on my timeline where I say I voted for Trump. Do any of you people know what Arkansas's mascot is? It's for a reason. And a wall or fence over 10 acres of land with a swamp in the backside isn't feasible.

[Jamie Loftus]

He writes again at 2:21pm I'm for the First Amendment.

[John Tomechek]

For those that say I should eat my kids, not have children, advocate the state taking them away from me, the ones who are driving by my home, taking aerial photos of my house, Googling where I work, etc. This is why I'm for the Second Amendment.

[Jamie Loftus]

So at this point Willie does bring it back to gun control because he has become the main character. He needs a gun. Actually in 2019. He had fully lost me at this point, but the story somehow continues the next day. Jason Isbell is still joking about the hogs on Twitter, and Willy replies to him again. He is determined to get through to Jason Isbell about these hogs.

[John Tomechek]

He writes, even though people have threatened my kids, taken pics in my home, driven by my house, my job, and threatened me, I'm still a fan of your music and I never said my situation was applicable to the entire country. It's real.

[Jamie Loftus]

Attached to this tweet is a video entitled Wild Hogs are fair game to hunt from the air in Texas.

[Carl Cassarda]

In Texas, they're going hog wild over wild hogs. The feral animals are causing hundreds of millions of dollars of damage to crops across the state. And to help deal with the problem, state lawmakers have approved the hunting of wild hogs and coyotes from hot air balloons. People had already been allowed to shoot the animals from helicopters, but it was an expensive and ineffective way to deal with the problem. Hot air balloons, apparently much better.

[Jamie Loftus]

So in case you're five years late and have never been to the rural south, the hog problem is real then, now, and it might be getting actively worse. Brace yourself for some unbelievable hog facts. The current estimated population of feral hogs in the United States is 6 million. That's one feral hog for every dollar in the budget of the movie the Room. Adult feral hogs can weigh anywhere from 75 to to 250 pounds. That is anywhere from the size of a fifth grader to the size of a football player. That is so large. And for my money, if 30 to 50 feral fifth graders or NFL players are charging my small kids in three to five minutes, I'd be scared, too. Willie is also right that these hogs are mainly in the rural South. Most of them live in Texas. But in Arkansas, where Willie lives, they're in all 75 counties and there's about 200,000 of them, which for comparison, is close to one gigantic feral hog. For every resident of Little Rock, Arkansas, there are entire government agencies dedicated to protecting the general public from the wrath of the hogs. So while there's plenty to unpack in this story before we can talk to the feral hogs guy, because yes, I did talk to the feral hogs guy. I went to maybe the authority in the US on this, John Tomasek is an associate professor at Texas A and M. And even more to the point, he's the chair of both the National Feral Swine Task Force and the Texas Feral Swine Task Force. Okay, and now imagine I'm doing a pickup truck commercial. This man knows big pigs. I had to talk to him.

[Jason Isbell]

I'm John Tomechek. I'm an associate professor working on wildlife damage, wildlife disease and carnivore management at Texas A and M University. When this came up, some friends of mine that are not in the space of working in wildlife, they're not in the space of living and working on the land, they're urban folks, they saw this and sent it to me, and I really appreciated it because they said, john, this is going around, but everybody's making fun of it. It sounds ridiculous, but you're an expert. What do you think? And I just shrugged and said, yeah, sure, 30 or 50 feral hogs in a group is not uncommon. Makes perfect sense to me. And that really was kind of my. My moment of going, oh, okay, what's. What's the big deal? What is so absurd about this? And I remember, you know, it was a con around, like, firearms and that kind of thing. And so friends of mine that are not gun owners, they're not hunters, but they know I am, they said, you know what, what's your thought on this? And I said, you know, I never actually owned an AR platform rifle before I started working professionally on feral hogs. And this is one of the scenarios in which it. It actually does make sense because of the numbers of animals you're dealing with. And I think that's really the kind of the juxtaposition here is when a person is engaging in sport hunting or meat hunting or whatever it is, you are focused on the one animal and the search for that animal and the take of that animal. Whereas with feral hogs, it's this deluge of invasive exotic animals that are destroying everything from clean air and clean water, to the food that we rely on for our tables, to the health and well being of our wild animals in wild places. And it's just everything. And so it's at times kind of an overwhelming sense of how will we ever get control over this problem? And so when the Internet sensation kicked up to me, it was an interesting moment to say, ah, you know, for those of us that are actively engaged every day in this space, this makes perfect sense. But to the outside world, it seems a little absurd. I took a different job, an academic job, and I was working with ranchers, landowners, farmers, and just asking them, you know, what are the issues that are most important to you? What are the issues that are facing you that you need help on? And almost unanimously, everyone was talking about damage that was caused by wildlife to their agricultural operation, whether they were farming your fruits and vegetables that come to the market. Everybody wants to Eat right or livestock production or whatever it was. And it was the idea of they don't hate the animal, they hate the damage and they don't know how to fix it to balance the production with the animal. So I got involved in that world of wildlife damage and then feral hogs kind of came as an interesting track to that because it's an exotic invasive animal that doesn't belong in the system that makes the sustainability of native plants and animals as well as humans much more difficult. And so over the years I've done more and more work in feral hogs simply because it's in my mind, it's one of the greater conservation challenges of our generation, simply because we are fighting a human created problem, that we essentially engineered these animals to be as effective at doing what they do. And now we're fighting against this. Like I said earlier, deluge. So like I said, long story. And I could go on for quite a while, but. But basically what brought me to the table was kind of looking at how people that live on the land and take care of the land because it is their livelihood as well, are struggling to do so in the face of this exotic invasive species that seems to have blown up in the last 20 or 30 years.

[Jamie Loftus]

So could you tell me a little bit about how did feral hogs get here and what were people misunderstanding as they were encount the story and 30 to 50 number?

[Jason Isbell]

Yeah, so. So what I love about this, and I really can't emphasize this enough for your listener base, most of us that work professionally with feral hogs, whether it's as researchers or managers or what have you, when the 30 to 50 number was thrown out, pretty much everyone, like I said, shrugged and said, yeah, it seems reasonable. Feral hogs got here a few different ways, ironically. So Christopher Columbus brought them on his second voyage to the New World. So first voyage, no, second voyage had pigs. They're domestic pigs at that time and they were brought as a food source. And it's important to remember in this period in history, pigs were raised in what we call a free ranging environment, meaning you let them go forage, they do what they do, and then once a year you round them all up, usually before the wintertime. If you're in a cold climate and you slaughter pigs, you keep a few in the barn over the winter and then you feed them, right? And then you make salt pork or sausages, whatever you're doing to put away food for the winter. And that's a pretty common European way of managing pigs. So they're brought to the New World by Columbus, and then sudden subsequent Spanish conquistadores brought them with them. Early explorers in Florida brought them. And it's important to note that the first couple of expeditions brought those pigs. And then future expeditions in their diaries commented they needn't have bothered bringing pigs because they were so abundant here already.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, okay.

[Jason Isbell]

And they're not native to the New World, so there are no classic swine native to the Western hemisphere. There are peccaries, like in Texas we have javelina. It's a collard peccary. We just use the Spanish words typically because that's what we're used to here. But peccaries are not pigs. I can't emphasize that enough. They kind of look like pigs. That's just convergent evolution making a thing look similar. But they are not the same animal.

[Jamie Loftus]

Those are the native species.

[Jason Isbell]

Correct. And they're native to the southwestern US and then farther south in Central America and South America. And they, they do not have the problems that I'm about to describe. So one of the things about pigs, it is mankind's oldest livestock animal as far as we know. So they're bred from Eurasian wild boar, which are a wild animal still around in Europe. But animal husbandry over thousands of years produced an animal that could breed at any time of the year because that's important to produce sustainable food. And they would have more offspring in a litter, which makes sense when we're making sure they stay fed so they can, they can have the ability to make sure those animals survive and more of those animals survive. They're heavier when they wean from their mothers. All of these things that in the wild wouldn't necessarily make sense, but in a farmed context or a raised context makes sense because it's a relationship where humans are also taking care of that animal.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right.

[Jason Isbell]

So we broke a natural reproductive cycle to create an animal that is the largest animal on the planet physically, that can reproduce that quickly with that many offspring. So I talked about the Spanish brought them, but then Anglo settlers in New England, you know, the British colonies brought them. And in our part of the world, when Anglos started moving from what's now the Midwest to Texas, when it was still a Spanish colony, and then later part of Mexico, they brought pigs with them. And what we have today is a history of, over the years, those free ranging pigs escaped, or when the pork industry was in a bad spot, farmers might have just turned their pigs loose because they couldn't afford to feed them. And in the context of am I Going to let those animals starve, or am I going to let them go forage and live because they can? Which one would you pick? I know what I would pick, and I get that. Right. I don't think any of it was malicious. But we live in a situation now where we have a tremendous number of these animals, and their ability to reproduce means that the population is growing all the time. So when we talk about managing numbers, it's not enough just to remove one or two. We have to try to get the whole group. And now here comes the 30 to 50. And I think it's important to recognize I'm not mad at the pigs. Nobody's mad at the pigs. But I have an exotic invasive that's hurting the environment. And that is the thing that. I liked your city mouse, country mouse analogy. For people that live on the land and work on the land, they understand the issue because they see it every day. For people that may be perennial urbanites, and that's their world, and that's fine. They may not understand in the same way of watching the land be ripped apart. And when the next rain comes, all the soil washes away because of this animal. We're not mad at them per se, but they have to go. They're damaging the environment. And that at the end of the day, we as humans rely on that environment to survive as well. You're in New England in the Northwest or Northeast. Excuse me. When you have black bears, they're. They're much bigger than ours bears. Most animals in northern climates, colder climates are larger, and warmer climates, they're smaller, even if they're the same species. So our bears in Texas, though 300 pounds is not an unusual size for a bear. I have pigs that are bigger than bears.

[Jamie Loftus]

That is, yeah, a crazy sentence to me.

[Jason Isbell]

And that's why I wanted to get to that point of like, forgive all the back info, but if you remember nothing else, remember that. And that is the resource issue.

[Jamie Loftus]

But the way you're describing it, it sounds like it is also related to colonialism that goes back hundreds of years. Like, this problem exists because of colonialism.

[Jason Isbell]

Which is an interesting tack. One thing that I often will bring up in these conversations, and it's something that comes up a lot in conservation, is most of the population lives in urban centers. And that's very true. Been that way for better part of 100 years. It's been that way. And the issues that face folks in rural areas are often cast aside or maligned or that kind of thing, which I think anytime we delegitimize a problem that anybody's facing. That is a real issue. This is an issue that affects everybody. If you don't think it affects you and your geography, just wait because it will.

[Jamie Loftus]

Thank you so much for speaking with me about this. I really, really appreciate it.

[Jason Isbell]

Yeah, my pleasure.

[Jamie Loftus]

Thank you so much to John Tomasek. Keep fighting the good fight. And of course, the villain was colonialism all along. In my estimation, almost everyone is a casualty in the story of the hogs, especially the hogs themselves. Of course, people and crops should be protected, but the fact that we can draw a direct line from European colonialism to shooting gigantic pigs from hot air balloons is, you know, we need to keep moving. But, you know.

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[Willie McNabb]

Oh, such a clutch off season pickup, Dave. I know, right? I was worried we'd bring back the same team.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, no. I meant those Blackout motorized shades.

[Willie McNabb]

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[Jason Isbell]

Hard to install?

[Willie McNabb]

No, it's easy. Even you could do it. Nice. I installed these and then got some for my mom, too.

[Jason Isbell]

You fly across the country to do the install?

[Willie McNabb]

Nope. Blinds.com can do it all. All she had to do was pick what she wanted. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install.

[Jamie Loftus]

Look at you, hall of fame, son.

[Willie McNabb]

Oh, I just picked the winning team. They're the number one online retailer custom window coverings in the world. Oh.

[Jamie Loftus]

Blinds.com is the goat.

[Willie McNabb]

The goat.

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[Willie McNabb]

We know it's more than just a car. It's the two door coupe that was.

[Jamie Loftus]

There for your first drive.

[Willie McNabb]

The hatchback that took you cross country and back.

[Jason Isbell]

And the minivan that tackles the weekly.

[Willie McNabb]

Carpool for the cars you couldn't live without.

[Jamie Loftus]

Trust Ameca Auto Insurance Amica.

[Willie McNabb]

Empathy is our best policy.

[Jamie Loftus]

The wildest thing to me about the Willie McNabb saga is while the subject felt completely out of left field, given that Jason Isbell was referencing a larger cultural conversation around mass shootings, what he was saying wasn't absurd. And while feral hog discourse continued for truly weeks after this first reply, I think the key to why people misunderstood it is contained in the very beginning legit question for rural Americans. Most of the people I quoted earlier are like me. They live in cities, they work in some vaguely entertainment or media job, and they like to make little jokes on the computer. I would hazard a guess that if a Twitter user lived in the rural south, or ever had, the comment about feral hogs might still sound weird, but it wouldn't have struck them as the complete topic change that it was made out to be by most people. That's because and on Twitter especially the Internet doesn't make the same space or consideration for people who live in rural areas. It reminds me of my conversation with Meredith Broussard last week when we were talking about the black TikTok strike of who is considered to be neutral. They're white, they're young, they're a man, and they live in a city. Pew research indicates that only about 13% of Twitter's user base lives in a rural area, so Willie was quite literally surrounded by users who who just had no idea what he was talking about. This was picked up on at the time as well. There's an episode of Reply all about it that I remember vividly. 2019 is also the year that Twitter introduced the Algorithmically Driven Topics feature that showed users stories that were trending, meaning that even people who didn't follow Jason Isbell found out about the feral hogs debate. Isbell's skepticism about Willie was further credited by the fact that that both of these men are Southerners. Isbel is from Alabama and there's no shortage of feral hogs in Alabama. So like main characters were want to do at this point, the mainstream media swept this story up. Explainer pieces were written breaking down the absurdity, and most of them ended with a flourish, sort of a and in case you didn't know, the hogs are real. Not only had Willie McNabb achieved main character status, he'd managed to start a conversation about a very rural problem on an absolute where rural people were not very present. As the days wore on, Jason Isbell got a huge bump in social media engagement from bringing the hogs to the masses. The Tweet was on August 4, and by August 6 the Internet was so swept up in the hogs that Isbell was featured and interviewed in the la Times on August 7.

[Carl Cassarda]

He said there are hundreds if not thousands of people making hog jokes this week. Without knowing why. I saw quite a few feral hog jokes are taking my mind off all the sadness in the world tweets yesterday. The sadness was the whole reason for the hog talk in the first place. This is like a TV show on an RFD network.

[Willie McNabb]

Hog talk.

[Jamie Loftus]

Isbel gets a bump from this, but he was already a celebrity. Willie was left to his own devices to figure out how to handle the sudden massive wave of attention he was receiving. The people who have lived in rural areas replying to him mainly say some version of hey man, try an electric fence. Worked great for me, but the vast majority of people are making fun of him. And meanwhile, Jason Isbell is holding his ground in saying that the concern Willie brought up in the weirdest way possible is a nothing burger. Here's another quote from the same LA Times interview.

[Carl Cassarda]

I've seen a damn hog in my time and yes, they're scary, but I'd much rather face a few dozen wild hogs than a freaked out dad with an AR15.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, point taken. But it never quite feels to me like Isbel and McNabb are having the same conversation. Isbell is railing against Americans access to assault weapons. There was a ban on assault weapons from 1994 to 2004 that lapsed and has yet to unlapse, with mass shootings continuing throughout. In the meantime, and while Willie is inarguably a defender of the Second Amendment, it does seem like he mainly wants to talk about hogs. All this happened almost five years ago, and Willie has never shied away from the infamy. In fact, he's taken up the cause of raising feral hog awareness, regularly retweeting reports about hog attacks and attempts to curb them. At the time I'm writing this, there is a tusked hog emoji next to his name on Twitter and his bio.

[John Tomechek]

Reads Internet folk hero, husband and dad, hog emoji, American flag emoji.

[Jamie Loftus]

I reached out to him on Twitter to see how this bizarre incident, this one reply, has shaped the last half decade of his life. Here's our talk.

[Willie McNabb]

My name is Willie McNabb. I guess infamous from the tweet I tweeted out five years ago to Jason Ispel. I live in South Arkansas. I'm a business owner, originally from North Carolina, graduated from Western Carolina University, moved here soon thereafter. My father had started a company here, and so I've been here ever since. So I'm a proud resident of Arkansas.

[Jamie Loftus]

My first question, because I feel self conscious about it, is, is it annoying that people are still asking you about a reply tweet from five years ago?

[Willie McNabb]

You know, it's. I wouldn't say annoying, No. I think that initially, you know, it's a little overwhelming, the initial response that I received. And I was, I remember the first few days of it that I was very cognizant of, okay, a lot of people are paying attention and this is a public forum and even someone, at that time I didn't have 100 followers. You know, it was a very small platform or what I thought it was. And so I was just, you know, expressing an opinion or a thought or something that I'd heard. And so I came to realize pretty quick that this was a global forum and a platform and it only took one person like Jason to be able to amplify that, see it. And I don't think he did it in a. I don't think he was trying to get me in any way. I think he was just replying to somebody he probably thought was a troll at the time, frankly. So, you know, after five years of it, there's not a day that goes by that I don't get some interaction or somebody saying something about it or so, no, I don't look at it as negative, actually. It's. But on the other hand, I mean, I can't reply to every feral hog thing that I see. And, you know, of course not. Yeah, it's a lot. So.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay, well, now that I've cleared the air in that sense, tell me a little bit more about yourself.

[Willie McNabb]

I grew up in western North Carolina, is a very rural up upbringing. And by the time I was 10, 12 years old, I could handle a firearm. It wasn't unusual for us to hunt for squirrel or rabbits or, my goodness, deer or grouse or quail or dove. And. And I have touched on this before, but, you know, we. We were not a family of many means. You know, it's a rural Appalachian. So we ate what we. We hunted and. And grew a garden and a very rural upbringing. But it was a way of life for people like myself especially. This is in the 70s and early 80s, you know, when I was a kid. And so there was nothing unusual about it. You know, at that time, there was still, my goodness, I had a couple of friends that I grew up with that didn't even have indoor plumbing. I mean, this was a. It's probably hard for people to even believe or grasp it. It was real. And. But we didn't. The great equalizer was, was that all of us were like that. All my friends, all the families that I knew, everybody grew up that way. So I, you know, I hunted some when I first came here. I'm not. Not an avid outdoorsman like I was after having my own family. My kids were never. They weren't into hunting and fishing like I was as a kid. They're more into basketball and volleyball and sports. And culturally, it's changed a lot, especially even in the south from what it was when I was a kid. Yeah, it was a very simple upbringing, but I did travel some as a kid. My father was a business agent for a labor local, Labor Union for 20 years. And so I spent a lot of time home base was always the Carolinas, but I would spend a year in Arizona or I would be in New Mexico or Texas or the Gulf coast or Salt Lake City. And we just traveled around a lot with mining and he was working a lot of work with mining companies and refineries and chemical plants and things like that. So he worked on specialty equipment in these mines and refineries and chemical plants. Actually, it was specific to environmental control. So he traveled a lot, and we traveled a lot with him. And so I, you know, I would be exposed to A lot of different parts of the United States and cultures. And then I would go back to home base in Carolina and then we would travel again. And then when I got to about junior high, for stability reasons, my mother and him agreed. Look, it's not good for the kids. I have two brothers, an older brother and a younger brother and, and we just didn't travel anymore. We stayed. We finished school in North Carolina and then went on to college and then. And found our way out here at Arkansas.

[Jamie Loftus]

Awesome. And what sort of business do you run now? If, if you're okay saying no, I.

[Willie McNabb]

Don'T mind saying it is a construction company, slash manufacturing company. We do some work in the chemical industry and refinery and mining industries. It's what my father did. But the largest portion of our work is in the healthcare sector for radiation shielding, for like, I think in practical terms and CTs or PET scans or cancer treatment or anything like that. We build specialty shielding systems, door systems, wall systems, etc.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow.

[Willie McNabb]

Me and my, me and my younger brother hold a United States patent for some operators for some of these doors and yeah, so we've, we've been successful, you know.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow, that's incredible. Prior to, however you think of it, Feral Hogsgate, what was your relationship to the Internet like? When did you start using it? How did you get into Twitter?

[Willie McNabb]

Sure, in 1995 when my father started this company. I remember getting an HTML for idiots and writing code to put up our first website.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay.

[Willie McNabb]

So that was my first introduction to it and I was always adamant to try to every two to three years to redo our website and try to advertise in that way because it's a niche industry and we do work domestically as well as internationally. But from the social media aspect, I've never had Facebook. I don't have Facebook today, my platform. I do have a private Instagram account. It's just pictures of my kids. That's essentially it. But as far as me engaging with other people, Twitter or X now is the platform I've always used and I enjoy it. And it is a, you know, it's like the wild west on there now. It's not what it was, but any, any ideas or things that I advocate for, I usually post on there. But I am cognizant that I don't, I don't wade off into debates that I don't have any understanding of or, you know, and there's so many of these cultural issues that, that, that I just try to stay out of. I, I think by nature I Don't look for conflict, and I don't look for division. And I don't like those type of things. And so I intentionally do not. I don't take positions on the platform because if I say I'm for this, I lose half the audience. And if I say I'm for something else, I lose the other half of my audience. You understand what I mean? And I'm trying to get people to communicate with each other and talk to each other. And the difficulty in all of these issues are in the nuances of them. You know, if these were easy. If these were easy issues to fix, they would have been fixed by now. And so I really like the engagement part and getting people to get outside their comfort zone and try to understand somebody else's perspective and then try to look at those nuances and get resolution to them. So I do not. I'm not a big advocate for conflict, but I do like debate. I like people to actually sit and have conversations and try to figure out these problems. I think that's the only way we get through them.

[Jamie Loftus]

Depending on the conversation. I feel like this is an interesting example of it where I certainly learned a lot from just delving deeper into 30 to 50 feral hogs. So you're careful about the kinds of conversations you start on Twitter. Why was this specific tweet something that you thought I have to reply?

[Willie McNabb]

Well, it's. Look, it's a. It's a tough. It's a tough issue. And I think Jason was coming from a very intellectually honest place. And. And for me, when I believe that people are not being surrogates necessarily for a cause, but they're. They're being intellectually honest, like they. They believe these things need to. From their perspective, these things need to change, and there needs to be. There's legitimate ways we can do it because of the personal experience that I had on this issue. And it was. You know, I've told the story a lot of times, but it was very real. It happened. And my kids were very small at the time. And once it happened to me, and I started reaching out to people, trying to understand the whys and. And realizing how complex it was, but on a very local, small level for an individual that's protecting his house or his kids, my ability to have the firearm to go out, and no easier way of saying it, shooting these pigs to get them out of my yard, it seemed like. It has always seemed to me that it was a fair question, it was a fair debate to have, and I think it's the disconnect between urban and rural areas in the country. Someone living in an urban atmosphere, they simply can't comprehend it. They don't know. And living in a rural area. I've got 10 acres or whatever it is, but I've got a 2 acre yard and the yard itself is huge. I'm not going to put a gate up or a fence up for my kids to play in the yard. I don't have neighbors. I mean, I can look in any direction and I don't see any houses. And so my kids are just being kids playing in the yard. So. But also the hogs feel like they've got a right to come in the yard too. You know what I mean? And so it's a long answer to a short question, but I just felt there was a legitimacy to it. I mean, there is. This is the two and a half billion dollars worth of damage annually to crops in the country. Arkansas spending over or has over $40 million worth of damage to crops here. And I remember it was three months after. It was about three months after the tweet, Arkansas got almost three and a half million dollars in federal funding strictly.

[Jamie Loftus]

To repair hog damage.

[Willie McNabb]

Well, yeah, they were. There was. The Arkansas Feral Hog Eradication Task Force had been established.

[Jamie Loftus]

Whoa, what a title.

[Willie McNabb]

It's something. It's a mouthful.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Willie McNabb]

And so that funding came in. Now, I can't specifically say that it was because of the tweet, but I've got to believe that, you know, all things to the attention that was on that issue at that time and the funding came in and there's been additional funding since. I think Senator Bozeman has been able to get some additional funding, but it's just a. It's a huge issue. There's no easy answers to it and. But I do believe the tweet probably led to some of that funding coming in. So that's a positive to it.

[Jamie Loftus]

I certainly didn't know what a huge issue this was rurally until I saw your tweet and then saw all the memes about the tweet and then read the explainers about the tweet and, you know, sort of that classic Internet cycle. But I wanted to go back because again, I'm coming into this conversation in a pretty naive way. I'm not going to shy away from that. When you were talking with your community, what were the potential solutions to take care of it? Was it just the gun? Was it. Were there other options? How. Yeah, walk me through that.

[Willie McNabb]

That, you know, I mentioned earlier, I grew up in North Carolina and I hunted a lot with deer and pheasants or grouse etc, but hog hunting was not really a big thing there when I was growing up. And so when I moved here, I lived in town for six or seven years and then I moved, I moved out of town and got a bigger home and more land and more conducive to the way I grew up. Up. And I've been out there several years, four, five, six years. And my kids were small. And you know, it's Arkansas, you hear about hogs the whole time you're here. The mascot for the university. So you hear about hogs and you hear about people killing them. But I had never actually hunted hogs. I'd never, okay, never really been around them. And so when my kids were small, was, was my introduction all these pigs and hogs all over my yard and, and so I, you know, I shot three of them and then, and then they came back a few more times and when I started speaking to my, my neighbors, that was their, their answer was that, you know, you've just got to get a gun. And a lot of them had the, you know, the ARS and aks or whatever type of assault style weapons they had and they were using them to eradicate hogs or get them off their, their lands. And, and timber industry is really big here in South Arkansas. Large tracks of land as well as soy and you know, crops. You know, it'll destroy the crops and it'll destroy the timberland. Especially when they go in and they'll have a clear cut and they'll put seedlings out. So there's real problems with it. And these are not large corporate farming, this is small farming. You know, these are individuals and family farms. And so their answer was to go out and to just shoot these hogs. You know, I know that in Texas they're looking at, there's like a strychnine or something like that. They're poisoning the hogs and those type of methods. That was never, no one ever mentioned anything to me like that. It was always just, you know, you get a gun, you go out, you shoot them. That's what you do. I don't want to get sidetracked here, but I remember a specific argument that people would say is that, you know, every day Willie's out there fighting hogs in his yard and there's just packs of them running over his yard. And that's not really the way it works. You know, they would show up and I would, wouldn't see them for months. And then they would come back, or it might be a year or two and they would come back. And there was a lot of environmental factors that could drive them up. There could be. It could be a rainy season that would drive them out of the bottoms. You know, this is kind of swampland. I never heard of any other solutions.

[Jamie Loftus]

Other than just shoot Jason Isbell. It seems like the undercurrent of what he's saying is in relation to recent mass shootings that took place. You bring up, well, here is a use for a rifle that is, you know, to protect my children. And then the tweet takes off. So the two of you are having a ridiculously complicated conversation. When the tweet takes off, what is the initial reaction, as you remember? Yeah. How do you choose who to talk to and who to kind of be like? Eh.

[Willie McNabb]

I was very careful in what I said once I realized the magnitude of it, it. And I had. I remember it was on a Sunday that I tweeted that by Tuesday I came into the office and I had calls from Sky News and Fox, cnn, all these major media publications that were soliciting some type of response from me. And quite frankly, my major in college was communication, so I did a little studying in journalism. And I've always had such a admiration for what you guys do, but I felt that there was. There was an agenda from a lot of them and I didn't want to be part of that. If I was going to speak to the media, I wanted people that I felt would give me a fair. A fair shake in what I was trying to say because they didn't understand the situation and I wasn't interested in a corporate media. I like independent media. I think that you guys from a. Come from an intellectually honest place and you're just trying to get the story out. So I was intentional in that. And, And I'll give you. I'll give you a little something, Jamie, that I haven't told anybody else. I've. I've referenced it a couple times in tweets subsequently. You know, I. In those first few days, I was. I was really worried because I was worried. I was worried about. I was worried about my. My family safety because people were taking Google Earth pictures of my home and saying, you can put a fence right here, you can put a gate right here. They were driving by my house and taking pictures of my Dr. They called Health and Human Services and said I should have my kids taken away from me. I mean, just some of the craziest stuff. And I remember my profile picture at the time on my Twitter feed was me and my daughter, we had been on vacation in San Francisco. My family had. And it was just an innocent picture, but somebody had sent me some links that. That they were taking my daughter's picture in mine and selling cups and T shirts on Etsy and all these places.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, my God.

[Willie McNabb]

I had to hire an attorney. I mean, I spent $10,000 in legal fees.

[Jamie Loftus]

What? Yeah, break that. Break that down for me.

[Willie McNabb]

Sure. I don't mind. So they had the tweet with a picture of me and my daughter, and they were selling it on these platforms. And I sent. I had to hire. And I had two attorneys. I had one that was writing cease and desist letters. This was all in the first couple of weeks to quit selling the image or not. And then I went to a copyright trademark lawyer, said, okay, let's try to copyright this phrase 30 to 50 feral hogs. So people can't use it to make money off of. And I learned pretty quick, within a few weeks, okay, I can't control this. There's just no way. I can't control this. I can't control any of this. And so I remember. I remember in the first few days, somebody's like, you ought to make some merchandise. I'm like, I'm not making merchandise off this. And then after three weeks, I'm like, okay, I've spent 10 grand in legal fees here. I've got to recoup some of. Of it. And what a horrible idea that was because the T shirts were a bomb. They didn't do anything. And so I've got boxes full of T shirts.

[Jamie Loftus]

No way.

[Willie McNabb]

Oh, yeah. That I never sold. And it was strictly to try to help pay for my legal expenses. So I spent 10,000 in legal fees. House was being surveilled by people coming up and taking pictures of my driveway. I was getting called in for child endangerment. I mean, just the craziest things those first few weeks were. They were a little. They were a little crazy.

[Jamie Loftus]

They really were just hearing the particulars of what it's like to not even just like, mentally have to process that volume of attention, especially when most people who are replying don't know what you're talking about. And then to have to take those sorts of measures, that is wild. So how did your family and just your community in general react to you becoming feral hogs guy overnight night? Because they certainly knew about the hogs.

[Willie McNabb]

Well, locally, everybody here thought it was hilarious. They thought the whole thing was just ludicrous and hilarious because, you know, this is. This is normal way of life for people here. You know, that I wasn't the only person dealing with hogs, because I wasn't not even an avid outdoorsman. And people are like, you. You're the feral hog guy. You don't even really hunt. Everybody else are these hunters. Definitely people more equipped to. To have this debate. You know, my. I remember my wife, she's like, I'm not talking to anybody. This is ridiculous. I'm not speaking to anybody about this. She thought the whole thing was crazy. My kids, they. They got. I think they probably got a little popularity because their dad was the feral hall guy. So they thought it was hilarious, you know, but it was stressful. I mean, the truth of it is, if I would have been 20 years younger, it would have. You know, I. I don't know how anyone. I remember having that conversation with. With my attorney. I don't know how anyone 15 to 30 years of age could deal with that type of attention. You know, you see people having meltdowns that. Are these public figures. My goodness, no wonder. I mean, this is just a very small thing that I dealt with, and. And the age I was. It was hard, especially the first few weeks of it. So, yeah, that was difficult. As far as the positive, I think that there was a. At the root of it is a legitimate problem. And I think the monies that have been allocated for that, that there's legitimacy to it. And I remember after I put out my statement, like, a week into it, the amount of. It's like people switched 180. I remember Jason was interacting with, like, Kevin Bacon or something on a tweet, and they were laughing about it, and I thought, you know, this is kind of crazy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Willie McNabb]

This even has an opinion on something like this.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right.

[Willie McNabb]

And I put. But when I put out that statement, it's like public sentiment changed. And quite frankly, Jason was. He could have been a lot harsher and a lot. He was kind to me. He was just. You know, I've never met him. I've never spoke to him personally. We have communicated over Twitter, but he was genuinely kind to me. He could have been a lot different type of person. And. And I think that speaks to who he is and what he believes in and what he advocates for. I'm still just as big a fan of his as I ever was.

[Jamie Loftus]

You. Were you a fan of his beforehand?

[Willie McNabb]

Oh, a massive fan. But, you know, it was weird. I kind of backed into his music. He had been around For a while, I didn't really follow him when he was drive by Truckers. Then he put out a couple of albums and Southeastern had already kind of blown up and he, he was coming out with something more than. Something more than free. Is that the album? Yeah, that's the one that I really started paying attention. And then I went back and discovered Southeastern and I saw him on that tour last fall with my daughter, which.

[Jason Isbell]

Was a good experience.

[Willie McNabb]

Yeah, we got, I got front row seats. We went down to Shreveport and saw him at the auditorium down there and it was a fantastic show.

[Jamie Loftus]

And did he know you were there?

[Willie McNabb]

Yeah, he tweeted something about it. He tweeted something about it? Yeah. Like I said, he's, he's been nothing but kind. And those first few days, once he realized that I was a sincere person and not some troll, he was, you know, he was very nice to me and, and I'm a, I'm still a huge Jason Ispel fan.

[Jamie Loftus]

I guess. My, my last question now is, has your relationship changed to the Internet since this incident?

[Willie McNabb]

I'm very careful to what I say. If I'm advocating for something specifically. I'm, you know, there are a few causes that I openly advocate for and I speak to and, But I, I like listening. You know, I, I spend a lot of time on Twitter. That's where I get a lot of my news from. I listen to a lot of podcasts. I don't think there's any issue that's confronting the American people right now that if we would just step back, just a half step and listen to each other. I really don't think we're that far apart on a lot of things. I think it's in the nuances of it and it requires some long form conversations, some true discussion of the issue. I still believe that Twitter's the, it's the wild west out there, but there's people there that, that, that will have honest, intellectual conversations with you. And I've made some friends on there. You know, I'm just, I'm probably more careful in what I say and just try to listen a little bit more. And I think twice about it. I remember I told somebody a quote of if you're going to take a real position on something, you better believe in it because you never know. You never know how it may blow up, up. And, and it's truly a public forum out there. So I don't know if that answers.

[Jamie Loftus]

The question, but it absolutely does. Yeah, there. This is a story about the different ways that Americans View Guns. It's a story about rural and urban online audiences trying to understand the same interaction. And to me, it's ultimately like 30 to 50 is a very funny amount of specific for a range of hogs. Where does 30 for 50 come from?

[Willie McNabb]

You know, the. I've spoken about that a couple times. The numbers were literally just pulled out of the air. You know, there was a lot of hogs. I don't know how many there was. You know, I said that to PJ. It could have been 20 to 25. You know, it was just a number. It was a large number of hogs. I was trying to convey it was a large number of hogs. They were in my yard. I had to get them out there fast. There was literally no more thought put into it than that. I've learned since and I didn't know it then, that, you know, a large pack of hogs is called a sounder. And a sounder can be 30 hogs is a large sounder, a large group of hogs. And you know, when your kids are out in your yard playing and a bunch of them out is out there, you don't know how many. You just know your whole car yards covered with hogs. And so it's just a bunch. You know, it's just a lot. I could have said there's a lot of hog.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, I feel like if you had just said a lot of hogs, we would not be sitting here. And it was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, Willie. Thank you so much to Willie for his time and just for being such a kind person and a good sport about feral hogs. Over the years. He was so, so kind to me and I really, really appreciate it. Hell yeah, Willie. You can still catch him on Twitter today. And when we come back, I try to slide that final piece of the piggy puzzle into place.

[Dion Green]

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[Jamie Loftus]

Welcome back to 16th minute. When I was a kid, my mom would not let me even look at a Halo game and would constantly repeat that guns are for squirting, hurting, not hurting. And today we are talking about the legend of 30 to 50 feral hogs that run into my yard within three to five minutes while my small kids play. I put a pin in it at the top of the episode, but I want to get back into the reason that this conversation happened in the first place. When two mass shootings happened in the space of the same day in the U.S. it's something I haven't seen discussed as much in the scope of this story that this moment of the Internet Internet coming together to make hog jokes was prompted by something really awful. So before we get to our last interview today, here's the thing. I don't have an expert opinion on gun control. I only have my opinion and it's that I hate guns and I struggle to hear out defenses of them, even in cases where that defense makes some sense. And that opinion is built on the way anyone builds opinions. It's informed by by how I grew up, where I live now, and what my personal experiences are. I grew up in a small city and not really around gun owners. I live in a city now and don't know many gun owners now, and my personal experience with a school shooting where there were thankfully no fatalities, and the anxiety that I have for a family that mainly consists of teachers who have to conduct these terrifying, tedious and necessary drills with their students more or less solidifies that at opinion. I was talking about this with my brother last night. He has a friend who grew up in a rural area, is queer, and felt necessary to have a gun because outside of things like the hogs, their perspective is that the people who pose an active threat to them in their community certainly have guns and they want to be able to defend themselves in their community should anything happen. And I know that hobbyists are an argument for guns. That argument was kind of a nice a non starter for us as well. A hobby is totally fine, but leave your gun at the range. But a horse girl leaves her horse in the stable. A hobbyist shouldn't need a gun in their house any more than a horse girl needs a horse in her bathroom. You don't want the wrong person with a loaded gun or a temperamental horse within arm's reach. That's my opinion, and I'll admit it lacks nuance. I've never had a reason to own a gun and outside of being just really juiced after seeing Atomic Blonde Bond, I hope I never have reason to. It's absurdly frustrating to me how easy it is to acquire an AR weapon in most places in the United States and The consequences are what we saw in Dayton and San Antonio and many times since. And so while this is pretty immovably how I feel, talking to today's guests pulled me out of the bubble of my own experience a little bit. With shootings like these, the gun isn't the only problem. There's a massive, A massive need to make some movement on how people are radicalized to do things like this. But I don't see how making it way more difficult for guns to fall into these hands isn't a place to start. A lot of arguments I've heard for guns rarely acknowledge or account for the people who are most likely to be harmed by them disproportionately. People of color, specifically unarmed black Americans. And while all of this is true, do I have an answer of how to defend oneself from the colonizers hogs? No, I don't. I wanted to talk to someone who felt more like Willie McNabb than about me on gun ownership, because it's a perspective that I genuinely struggle with, especially with people who have politics that are very similar to mine. And the perfect person to speak to was Carl Cassarda, whose YouTube channel Inrangetv is described as the channel where firearms, culture, history, and human rights meet. He's a friend of the producers of this show, Sophie and Robert, and he was so kind to talk to me for this episode. Here's our talk.

[Carl Cassarda]

So, hi, I'm Carl Casarda and I am the creator and producer of InRange TV, which is a ostensibly a firearms content creation YouTube channel. But really it's extended beyond that. It's, it's much more about. We do a lot to do with firearms, but I also do a lot of content about history, civil rights, essentially the intersectionality of, of how firearms have really shaped society.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, thank you so much for being here to talk about the pressing issue of 30 to 50 feral hogs five years ago. So Jason is. Well, yes, says if you're on here arguing the definition of assault weapon today, you are part of the problem. You know what an assault weapon is, and you know you don't need one. What's your take on that?

[Carl Cassarda]

Well, the thing about that term assault weapon is actually a politically charged term or essentially like legislative attempts to restrict firearms rights. Whether you agree or disagree, that term assault weapon is not actually something that's ever used in any firearms realities. Like there is the term assault rifle. And oddly, of course, as all things seem to sadly goes all the way back to Hitler when he called, when he coined the Gun, the Sturmgewehr, which was the Storm rifle, which is where assault rifle comes from.

[Willie McNabb]

Room.

[Carl Cassarda]

So what that did is that codified a type of firearm which was a intermediate cartridge, meaning something that wasn't a full size cartridge, but not a pistol cartridge. Something between the two that had a box fed magazine meaning a detachable magazine, usually of 30 round capacity, that could fire single shot or fully automatic. And that is actual, technically the firearms definition of what an assault rifle is. But in the 90s and when we saw gun control on the rise, this term assault weapon was used by politicians and it was vague and they never could really define it because they were trying to say things like the, the shoulder thing that goes up. I'm not kidding, that's. One politician said that a shroud, like they had all these ideas of what they were just trying to like codify this phrase assault weapon, but there is no such actual thing technically. And so, so it's a political term.

[Jamie Loftus]

Actually, because I know the cultural moment that Jason Isbell's responding to here, but I can't tell if he is responding to a specific person making a semantic argument or, or what.

[Carl Cassarda]

First of all, I want, I want, I hope the audience, at least some of the audience is familiar with my work and they'll know that I'm not making light of any of these horrific events. This is a terrible thing. But we're not, we're not directly talking about it. We're talking about this phrase assault weapon. And it came about, well, as far as I know, the real phraseology came about in the early 90s, which is what ultimately turned into the 1994 assault weapons bill, which was a restriction on the ownership of a large swath of firearms that were defined initially by name. But then they realized they couldn't define them by name because there was too many variants and like manufacturers. So then they tried to define them by features like a pistol grip or a shroud or a flash hider or a bayonet lug. I'm not kidding. One of the defining characteristics of an assault weapon, legally speaking, has frequently been a bayonet lug. And so this is where it starts to get a little absurd because we're not, we don't hear about a lot of drive by bayonetting. Right. Like, so it, it became almost aesthetic and not really functionally in practice. And that's where the challenge is because, and this is where you'll hear like the trope from gun, gun people like, well, an assault weapon is a weapon is a weapon. It's how you use it to determine if it's an assault weapon. And you know, that's not totally incorrect. But at the same time, when someone says assault weapon because of the politics behind it, you know what they mean, right? It's kind of like, you know, you can't define porn, but you know, when you see it kind of thing. That's what they were trying to do with the law and they could never really pull it off because it's really, it's on. It's kind of amorphous and hard to hold on to.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sounds so much like they're talking about two very different things. Are they talking about two very different things? Where is the disconnect happening here outside of this being a rural issue that a lot of city people would not be aware exists?

[Carl Cassarda]

Wherever anyone's falls on the topic of firearms and firearms ownership in this country is this is a really good moment moment to kind of like really distinctively show the very different worldview that are existing in this space. Right. So I know what his original post means, right. I so like he's using a political term of assault weapon. But I also understand the context of why this person's saying this. They're talking about a weapon that is probably 30 round capacity, semi automatic, can fire many rounds, you know, quickly. Or to be honest with you, a lot of people that are not familiar with firearms just assume these things are fully automatic machine guns and they're not like there's such a broken conversation being had that neither side can really speak the same language. And part of that is one side's defensive and doesn't want to lose the thing that's important to them in some ways may be important only psychologically and in some ways maybe important actually in reality when you live in a rural life, because I do live a rural existence for most of my existence. The truth is in those spaces like where I'm at, whether or not you like police or not calling them is the chances are you're going to have a 30 minute to one hour response time. And so that's just how it works. And so there is a reality there that in a world filled with items like this, there is a chance that that item could very well be the thing that saves your life. Like maybe not against 50 hogs, but it could be something else. Like I mean 30 hogs or even five or whatever. But the thing is that's interesting about this is that let's be realistic. When people say assault weapon, they almost always now think of an AR15 and right. And so here's the thing that's so interesting about this. Yes, an AR15 does hold 30 rounds or even 60 rounds. It can fire very quickly. But you know what else it can do? It's actually very capable for someone who doesn't have the opportunity to train a lot or have like lots of upper body strength or isn't necessarily proficient to actually be capable to use. So there's actually a weird sense of ableism in this sometimes because there are places I believe in spaces in this world where people do need. Well, I do believe in the right of self defense across the board, but there are places where that weapon may very well be the right choice because the person who needs to use it really couldn't handle something else. And so that's never talked about. And it's like, it's kind of an interesting thing. But when you live in the city, you of course are in a place where ostensibly with the push of a button on your phone, hopefully actual help is there to be had, or you're amongst other people or there aren't feral hogs roving the streets of like Times Square, I assume. And so this worldview, when you live in a rural place, it's almost like they're on different. We're in the same country, but we're on different planets. One of the interesting things about social media is that it's caused everyone. Like we used to have, like our circles we existed in, like these people hung out over there and those people hung over there and sometimes they would talk at the local supermarket or whatever the coffee shop. But it was somewhat cursory interaction. But social media has forced us all into one giant communal living space. And, but without context, these worldviews really very foreign to each other. That person living with Those quite possibly 30 hogs in their yard can't fathom walking down New York City or New Orleans. That's like, it is a different planet and someone from one of those places can fathom a bunch of wild creatures in the yard that actually could legitimately kill them. Like, those are very. Such different worlds.

[Jamie Loftus]

I am very possibly asking you to solve the entire world for me right now. But is there, in this conversation that they're having, having, is there a solution where Jason Isbell is asking essentially, how can we get mass shootings to stop? And Willie McNabb is asking, how can I protect my children from the hospital?

[Carl Cassarda]

Well, you're going to hear the opinion of a person that's a big proponent of self defense rights. So you're Going to get my bias.

[Jason Isbell]

There's.

[Carl Cassarda]

There is. Everyone's got to have a line somewhere. Right? So I don't know that you should. I don't believe you should walk down to the street and be able to buy an rpg. Like, this is a problem. Right. Okay. And maybe some people's line is an AR15. But the reality is anyone using any of these things for the things they're doing is, to me, the symptom of a much deeper cultural problem that isn't being discussed. Why is this happening and when it comes historically? Because you said you watch some of my history work. The reality is, from a firearms perspective, this is a topic that's been really dwelling on me for a while. While, technologically speaking, we didn't have AR15s in like 1880.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right.

[Carl Cassarda]

But the types of firearms that existed in 1880 were capable of doing almost the same sort of horrific things you can do now with an AR15. It almost. It's not trying to be a cop out, but something happened somewhere where these things, which are prolific in this country and always have been, started taking this even darker turn. And that darker turn to me is. Is where we should be focusing is why is this happening and what is it we're doing in our society that's making everybody in all directions feeling. I don't mean to sound so dark, but like America's feeling like a dark place. And there's reasons. And I think it's across the spectrum.

[Willie McNabb]

Right.

[Carl Cassarda]

It's like almost anyone you talk to isn't happy with how it is. And there's a reason. Something's wrong, Something's deeply wrong. And you hear things like capitalism, which is true for sure, but the social ills that we're. That we are built in and aren't addressing are manifesting in so many ways beyond. And just isn't the right word, because you can't say just a mass shooting, because these are lives. But that is one example of many manifestations of. I'm going to go ahead and say a diseased society to be born.

[Jamie Loftus]

You know, both people are essentially talking about being failed in various ways by their government. The conversation doesn't quite connect. And. And I don't know, I mean, just based off of what you were just saying, it feels very much like contributing to this disease while also being a place that I love. A place where I've found a lot of dear friends is the Internet.

[Carl Cassarda]

And I'm not trying to take us off topic because I know we're talking about the wild hogs issue versus assault weapons. But like, hopefully you brought some context of where that phrase comes from. And the reality of the cultural divide that exists in this country is diverse. And here we are all in one space using American style English, but we're not speaking the same language. We just aren't. And I, I how to get people to get on a better page is a hard call. I don't know. But like, what I do, in my opinion, what I do know, or believe at least, is that the best answer ever is education. And I'm not sure how to do that when the algorithm just wants to make it a war. And that's what this is. Why this is kind of like that, right? Because this guy posts the thing and he's, his heart's in the right place. We should never have another mass shooting again. And the other guy's like, well, what do I, what do I do about these things in my yard that are trying to kill my kids? And they're both, they're not. Neither one's wrong. Right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Thanks so much to Carl Cassarda. You can follow his work. I would particularly recommend the historical stuff over on inrange tv, linked in the description of this episode. I don't know, maybe there is a version of the world where most people could handle a weapon, weapon as dangerous and volatile as an AR15, but I don't think we're living in that world. The issues that the hog tweet prompted, those of mass shootings and gun violence and that of a hostile and violent species hell bent on killing children, are more similar than I realized. They're both invasive species. And outside of supporting people who are trying to prevent these horrors, I'm not the person that has the solution. I don't even have a driver's license. But what I do want to do here is include the voice of someone who is doing their level best to prevent further gun violence in the US In a genuine way, because the loss that's caused by US policies on guns is huge. One story that really stuck with me in the researching for this episode is an ongoing effort organized by a man named Dion Green, the son of a victim from the Dayton mass shooting. Since he lost his father, he is focused on helping people and communities affected by this kind of violence and showing them a path to healing. Here he is speaking on the local news last year after traveling to Maine following the mass shooting in Lewiston that left 18 people dead.

[Willie McNabb]

The sad thing about it is there's going to be another shooting and they're going to disperse out and when they disperse out, the resources leave with them as well. So I, I need to know, I need them to know that there are.

[Carl Cassarda]

Still people around that are willing to help.

[Dion Green]

Green knows their grief well. He lost his father, Derek fudge in the 2019 Oregon District Mass shooting. Green taking his pain and creating an outlet for support. He now leads the Fudge Foundation, a non profit in his father's name.

[Jamie Loftus]

Its mission is to help those dealing.

[Dion Green]

With traumatic events and advocate at the local and national level.

[Willie McNabb]

The band aid comes off and that trauma surfaces. So to have people there to be able to help and assist and let them know how to get through it and just share opinions and things of how other survivors got through it is monumental to the next survivors that are being able to process these things.

[Jamie Loftus]

I think Dion's work is really amazing. I will link to it in the description and I am so sorry that the hogs episode got so sad had Jesus. So what happened to these hogs? The hogs that we were told numbered between 30 and 50 but in retrospect was probably less listener. I wish I had better news. The hogs are probably dead given the average life expectancy of a hog or potentially them being shot from a balloon. And when it comes to gun policy in the US at the time I'm writing, assault weapons are prohibited in only nine states. And while mass shootings are lower this year year than the previous few, the United States still has markedly more gun violence than in other developed nations. And that's where we are five years later. Gun laws are stagnant. The hogs are loose. But at least Willie McNabb and Jason Isbell got to hang out at a concert one time. That's not nothing. It's just almost nothing. And so, my sweet, probably dearly departed 30 to 50 feral hogs, your 16th minute ends now.

[Jason Isbell]

I'm.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm seeing things. Mr. Zuckerman?

[Willie McNabb]

Mr. Zuckerman, something's happened to lvy.

[John Tomechek]

Do you see what I see?

[Willie McNabb]

Some pig.

[Jamie Loftus]

You don't suppose that spider Edith, we.

[Willie McNabb]

Have received a aside. We have a very unusual pig.

[Jamie Loftus]

16Th minute is a production of Cool Zone Media and iHeartRadio. It is written, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The Amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our theme song is why sad13 and are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days?

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Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the.

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[Jamie Loftus]

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[Carl Cassarda]

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[Jamie Loftus]

Thoughts I could catch anything sitting in this doctor's waiting room.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Okay, just wiped his runny nose on.

[Jamie Loftus]

My jacket and the guy next to me sitting in a pool of perspiration insists on sharing my armrest.

[Carl Cassarda]

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[Dion Green]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this new year, make sure you take some time to take care of yourself and your family. Now through January 28th. Save up to 25% on all your favorite personal care essentials. Shop in store or online and stock up on all your favorite items like like Tresemme Shampoo, Axe Deodorant, Dove Bar Soap, Dove Men's Body Wash and Dove Dry Spray. And Save up to 25%. Offer ends January 28th. Restrictions apply. Promotions may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Willie McNabb]

ABC Wednesday Tim Allen and Kat Dennings star in the new family comedy Shifting Gears.

[Jamie Loftus]

Dad, I'm broke and I need a.

[Carl Cassarda]

Place to stay until I figure out.

[Jamie Loftus]

What the rest of my life looks like. So a couple of days when his.

[Willie McNabb]

Daughter moves back in.

[Jamie Loftus]

The last time you walked out that.

[Willie McNabb]

Door, you looked back at me and gave me a double bird.

[Jamie Loftus]

I was 18. The double bird was how I ended all our conversations.

[Willie McNabb]

The wheels come off.

[Jamie Loftus]

Can we try to talk to each other like rational adults?

[Willie McNabb]

Have you watched the news lately? That's not a thing anymore. Series premiere Wednesday 8. Seven Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.