ohmygod, shoes: liam kyle sullivan and KELLY

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sixteenth Minute (of Fame) - "ohmygod, shoes: liam kyle sullivan and KELLY"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Sixteenth Minute (of Fame)
• Host/Author: Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts
• Description: Sixteenth Minute (of Fame), hosted by Jamie Loftus, delves into the lives of the internet’s most notable characters. Combining reportage, interviews, and Jamie’s unique comedic insight, the show explores the impact of internet fame—both its allure and its pitfalls—through detailed character studies and contextual analysis.

Episode Information:

• Episode Title: ohmygod, shoes: liam kyle sullivan and KELLY
• Release Date: February 25, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of Sixteenth Minute (of Fame), Jamie Loftus explores the phenomenon of Liam Kyle Sullivan and his iconic drag character, Kelly. The episode delves into Kelly's rise to internet fame through the viral "Shoes" video, the historical context of drag in comedy, and the lasting impact of Liam’s work on YouTube and drag culture.

The Evolution of Drag in Comedy

Jamie begins by examining the intertwined history of drag and comedy, highlighting how drag performances have often been portrayed by cisgender straight men, sometimes at the expense of authentic feminine representation. She references notable examples like Will Ferrell’s portrayal of Janet Reno and contrasts them with more nuanced depictions.

Notable Quote:

“Drag has been around for as long as we have, although the way it's been presented in mainstream culture tends to be fairly prescriptive.”
— Jamie Loftus [04:22]

Jamie's analysis emphasizes the shift brought about by platforms like RuPaul’s Drag Race, which have brought drag into mainstream consciousness while also critiquing its limitations regarding inclusivity and representation.

Notable Quote:

“Drag Race has an emphasis on slogans and marketing based on individualism, something that many collective drag communities resist while continuing to, like any reasonable person would, continue to watch and enjoy Drag Race anyways.”
— Jamie Loftus [07:15]

Introducing Liam Kyle Sullivan and Kelly

The heart of the episode centers on Liam Kyle Sullivan, an actor and comedian who created the drag character Kelly. Jamie traces Kelly's origins back to early 2000s Los Angeles, where Liam transitioned from serious theater acting to sketch comedy at the Acme Comedy Theater.

Notable Quote:

“Kelly is a drag character. That's commentary on oppression experienced in white teen suburbia.”
— Jamie Loftus [06:00]

Kelly's breakout moment came with the "Shoes" video, which captured the essence of mid-2000s YouTube virality before the platform became the behemoth it is today. Jamie discusses how Kelly's rebellious spirit and distinctive aesthetic resonated with early internet audiences.

Notable Quote:

“Kelly isn't gonna sell out. Kelly is punk rock.”
— Jamie Loftus [41:48]

The Rise of "Shoes" and Early YouTube Culture

Jamie provides a historical backdrop of YouTube in its infancy, detailing how Kelly's "Shoes" video became one of the platform’s early viral sensations. Unlike today's rapid virality, Kelly's rise was gradual, relying on word-of-mouth and traditional media shout-outs.

Notable Quote:

“Back then it was over a year and a half before YouTube accounts could monetize goddamn anything.”
— Jamie Loftus [18:25]

She highlights the challenges Liam faced in monetizing his content before YouTube's Partner Program and how Kelly's success was both accidental and a testament to the character's appeal.

Kelly's Legacy and Impact

Kelly's videos, including "Shoes" and "Muffins," showcased Liam's ability to create relatable yet exaggerated characters that addressed themes of teenage rebellion and societal expectations. Jamie discusses the enduring legacy of Kelly, noting how the character inspired a generation of YouTubers and drag performers.

Notable Quote:

“There's a hunger for critiques of colonialism at the club.”
— Karim Kubchandani (Author of Decolonized Drag) [06:30]

Jamie references Karim Kubchandani’s Decolonized Drag to underscore the political dimensions of drag performances like Kelly, emphasizing their role in challenging and redefining cultural narratives.

Interview with Liam Kyle Sullivan

In a candid interview segment, Jamie sits down with Liam Kyle Sullivan to reflect on his journey with Kelly and his experiences navigating early internet fame.

Notable Quotes:

“When Kelly does it, there's something about it that connects because there's a lot of injustice in the world and we've got to address it around this time.”
— Liam Kyle Sullivan [42:40]

“Sometimes it's like it was yesterday, and other times, like. Yeah, that feels about right. 20 years.”
— Liam Kyle Sullivan [56:25]

Liam discusses the unexpected resurgence of interest in Kelly, particularly during the YouTube anniversary events, and shares his feelings about being recognized long after the initial fame. He reflects on the pressures of maintaining the character and the challenges of adapting to the evolving digital landscape.

Notable Quote:

“I became like an executive thinking business rather than creative. I could never really get back to that kind of like, alright guys, we're gonna make a video. Isn't this cool?”
— Liam Kyle Sullivan [49:11]

Transitioning Beyond Kelly

As YouTube transformed into a platform dominated by algorithm-driven content and monetization strategies, Liam found it increasingly difficult to sustain Kelly's presence without feeling creatively stifled. Jamie explores how this shift impacted Liam’s career, leading him to diversify his work beyond Kelly.

Notable Quote:

“YouTubers React to Viral Video Classic... Shane Dawson... reflected on the influence Shoes had had on the platform.”
— Jamie Loftus [46:16]

Despite the plateau in Kelly's popularity, Liam continued to create content and expand his repertoire with other characters like Aunt Susan. He also took on roles behind the scenes, editing for platforms like BuzzFeed and working with entities such as the Fine Brothers and Defy Media.

Kelly’s Brief Resurgence and Modern Reflections

After a period of relative inactivity, Kelly made a brief comeback in 2020 with a lockdown-themed mask endorsement, reminding audiences of the character's enduring appeal. Liam shares his emotional connection to Kelly and the cathartic experience of revisiting the character, which helped both him and his fans navigate the challenges of the pandemic.

Notable Quote:

“It felt so good about that. And I realized that I hadn't really engaged with that audience because I was 32 when I made the video.”
— Liam Kyle Sullivan [58:32]

Jamie emphasizes how Kelly's legacy is celebrated among early YouTube enthusiasts and new generations discovering the character as a relic of the platform's formative years.

Conclusion

The episode culminates with Jamie expressing her admiration for Liam Kyle Sullivan's resilience and creativity. She highlights how Kelly remains a beloved figure in YouTube history, inspiring countless creators despite the lack of substantial financial reward during the character's peak.

Notable Quote:

“Kelly was really funny, but she was also really cool. You were never ever laughing at her the way that you see punching down drag comedy that we talked about earlier in this episode.”
— Jamie Loftus [38:03]

Jamie previews an upcoming continuation of the interview, promising deeper insights into Liam's personal life and the ongoing legacy of Kelly.

Closing Remarks

Jamie wraps up the episode by inviting listeners to attend Liam Kyle Sullivan’s live show and stay tuned for the next part of the interview, which delves into Liam's personal journey and the enduring influence of Kelly on both his life and the broader internet culture.

---

Notable Ads Skipped: The transcript includes multiple advertisements for brands like Lowe's, DSW, Colgate Palmolive, Amica Insurance, Albertsons, Safeway, Dime Beauty, Intuit QuickBooks, and Famous Smoke's. As per the summary instructions, these non-content sections have been excluded to maintain focus on the episode's core content.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Kelly's Impact: Kelly remains a seminal figure in early YouTube culture, illustrating the platform's potential for independent content creators to achieve viral success without traditional media backing.
• Drag and Representation: Kelly's character highlights the complexities of drag representation in mainstream media, balancing humor with social commentary.
• Creator’s Journey: Liam Kyle Sullivan's experiences reflect the challenges creators face in adapting to rapidly evolving digital platforms and the personal toll of unexpected fame.
• Legacy and Inspiration: Kelly's enduring legacy continues to inspire new generations of content creators and drag performers, serving as a testament to the character's authenticity and appeal.

Learn More: Listeners interested in exploring Kelly’s videos or attending Liam Kyle Sullivan’s upcoming show can find more details in the episode’s description, which includes links and ticket information for the Bechtel cast post-Oscars live celebration and Liam’s workshop at the Lyric Hyperion Theater in LA.

---

Final Thoughts: This episode of Sixteenth Minute (of Fame) provides a comprehensive exploration of Liam Kyle Sullivan's creation, Kelly, and her place in internet and drag history. Through in-depth analysis and personal anecdotes, Jamie Loftus offers listeners a nuanced understanding of what it means to achieve fleeting yet impactful fame in the digital age.

Transcript

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Lowes knows that free is just better. That's why Milo's Rewards is free. To join as a member, you earn points towards Milo's money on eligible purchases, get exclusive free gifts and earn free shipping at SilverKey status all on top of weekly member only deals. Don't wait. Join Miloe's Rewards for free today and start saving more Lowes. We help you save Loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions. Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change Where'd you get those shoes?

[Jamie Loftus]

Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you from daydreamer to multitasker, and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com the new year's here.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It's the perfect time to refresh those household essentials and score some cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive. From toothpaste to dish soap, chances are you've got Colgate Palmolive products on your shopping list and in your house. Right now we're talking brands like Colgate Soft Soap, Palmolive, Irish Spring, Fabuloso, and Tom's of Maine. And right now you can get up to a $10 digital Visa prepaid card when you buy up to $30 of Colgate Palmolive products. Here's how it works. Spend spend $20 on their products. Get $5 spend $30, get a $10 reward. All you do is shop your favorite brands, snap a pic of your receipt and upload it to cprewards.com it's so easy. That's cprewards.com so grab what you need. Or maybe try something new and get rewarded just for doing your usual shopping. And start your year fresh by earning cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive rewards available while supplies last. Limit supply US only 1125 through 33125 for full terms and conditions, visit CPR.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

At Ameca Insurance we know it's more than just a house. It's your home. The place that's filled with memories. The early days of figuring it out to the later years of still figuring.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

It out.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

For the place you've put down roots. Trust Amica Home Insurance Ameca Empathy is our best policy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Cool Zone Media hello everybody. Two quick plugs here at the Top first, it is the last call for listeners to get tickets to the Bechtel cast post Oscars live celebration at Dynasty typewriter this Sunday, March 2nd in LA. There's going to be live and streaming tickets available right after the Oscars viewing party at Dynasty. If you want to come early and watch the ceremony with us, you're welcome to take tickets are in the description and it's going to be super fun. Secondly, this Thursday, February 27th, the subject of today's episode of 16th Minute, Liam Kyle Sullivan, aka Kelly, is workshopping his latest show, a Liam Kyle Sullivan show, at the Lyric Hyperion in la. Tickets also in the description. I cannot wait to see it. Enjoy the episode. Drag in comedy has a long history.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I can never have children. We can adopt some, but you don't understand, Osgood. I'm a man. Well, nobody's perfect. Not in Big Mama's house. Hello, I'm the church lady and this is Church Chat.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, it's so great to be back. I've been gone for a while doing missionary work on abc and drag and comedy have been connected since the moment both existed. Obviously, there's a million ways that people have interpreted this from case to case over the years. There's the point of view that many of these actors are CIS straight men playing against type for laughs, some would say at the expense of making women look silly. An example that comes to mind is Will Ferrell as Janet Reno.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Hi, I'm Janet Reno. Welcome to Janet Reno's Dance party. Energy alive from my basement. Say I really like dancing to that song.

[Jamie Loftus]

There's the historical truth that comedy has generally been overwhelmed by CIS men making drag performance necessary if femme characters were to appear on screen at all. Again, going to snl. In the long stretches of time in which they never cast a black woman, actors like Tracy Morgan and Kenan Thompson would be in drag anytime a black woman appeared on the show as a character at all.

[Albertsons and Safeway Representative]

Here now with a preview of her.

[Jamie Loftus]

Work is Maya Angelou.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Thanks, Tina. As always, you effervesce the sweet aroma of woman in full bloom.

[Jamie Loftus]

Thank you. That's good, right?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Oh, yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

But drag on mainstream TV isn't really drag culture. In order to define that, and I'm not the person to define what drag culture is, it encapsulates a far wider community spanning class, race, gender, sexuality, location, history in general. So for a working definition, I'm going to kick it to Karim Kubchandani, author of Decolonized Drag, whose drag name, by the way, is Lahore Vajistan. Incredible. He says, here's my take. Drag is a genre of performance practiced in entertainment, nightlife and festival contexts by and for gender and sexual dissidents, primarily the people who fall under the umbrella categories of queer and transgender, but also many others at the margin of normative gender and sexual configurations. But when it comes to mainstream culture, drag before drag race, there was a genre of drag that was basically, wait, this famous CIS man shouldn't be in a dress, see Jack and Jill or the Nutty Professor. But in other famous pieces of mainstream media, drag characters are real characters, and drag is used as a storytelling tool about gender and sometimes race, culture, or sexuality. Think Tootsie, Mrs. Doubtfire, White Chicks, Hairspray, Juana man, she's the man to Wong Fu, the Birdcage, Some Like It Hot. The list goes on. And there are plenty of criticisms of all of those movies to be had. However, no matter how many politicians try to suppress and weaponize drag performance as dangerous, that is so clearly horseshit. Drag has been around for as long as we have, although the way it's been presented in mainstream culture tends to be fairly prescriptive. You probably know that drag culture has gone very mainstream in the last 15 years, in large part thanks to the ever expanding, occasionally fracking, RuPaul's Drag Race empire.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Drag Race to start your engine, RuPaul Drag Race Miller.

[Jamie Loftus]

Queens are selling out gigantic theaters and becoming mainstream celebrities in ways that would once have been unheard of. But drag race has its complications, too. Many performers would agree that drag is inherently political, a case that is carefully made by Kubchandani in Decolonized Drag, and he does not spare drag race in this assessment. He carefully outlines the ways in which drag race has been historically reluctant to change, especially not including trans competitors on the show for years, as well as racial tokenization and often enforcing this colonial lens of beauty onto the queens, whether that means criticizing body hair fatness, imperfect tucking, and just a general reluctance toward complete gender fuckery. Drag Race has an emphasis on slogans and marketing based on individualism, something that many collective drag communities resist while continuing to, like any reasonable person would, continuing to watch and enjoy Drag Race anyways, because it's drag race. I cannot recommend decolonized drag enough. It not only reframed the political nature of drag for me and introduced me to a bunch of incredible acts I wasn't familiar with, but it also includes, I think, my favorite line in a book ever. There is a hunger for critiques of colonialism at the club. Wouldn't know. Don't go to the club. But let's get back to comedy. Drag in comedy is a very complicated topic. The kind of comedy topic that will shock you in how unfunny it can become. And obviously my interpretation of any of this is certainly not the final word. But for the purposes of this episode, let's use the general comedy rules of who's the target? Are we punching up? Are we punching down? Because there are some drag characters in comedy where the target of the joke appears to be women or femmes, either a specific person or a broader caricature by a CIS male performer who did not perform in drag outside of this. Monty Python does this a lot.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

An ugly kind of violence is rife, stalking the town. Yes, Gangs of old ladies attacking fit, defenseless young men.

[Jamie Loftus]

On the other side, there are famous comedy drag characters that are equally hyper feminine, but are actually characters. It's pretty commonly agreed on that the kids in the hall were a sketch group that did drag a lot more thoughtfully without ever sacrificing the funny. Here's Jocelyn.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

What would you say if aliens came down and tried to pick us up? Would they pay us in our own money? No. In alien money?

[Jamie Loftus]

No.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I would not fall for that again. No.

[Jamie Loftus]

Dave Foley. Oh my God, what a hottie. And it will come as no surprise that the kids in the hall were a big influence on our subject this week. The first drag character to make it big on YouTube, and I'm happy to say, in my opinion, built his character out with the big personalities associated with drag without any contempt for his character or just women and femmes in general that a lot of earlier Python style efforts were more mean spirited and self conscious about. So drag had been a fixture in culture for centuries with a long and complicated history, but it hadn't yet cracked the mainstream Internet. By the mid 2000s. But a full three years before drag Race would debut, a character would break through on what would be the biggest Internet platform in the world. One day in early 2006, YouTube was just starting to find its footing. Not as a dating site as it was originally intended, but as a video uploading platform. It had its first major Viral hit in December 2005, shortly after its launch.

[Albertsons and Safeway Representative]

Lazy Sunday, wake up in the late afternoon.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Call Parnell just to see how he's doing.

[Jamie Loftus]

Hello.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

What up, pawns?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yo, Sam Burke, what's cracking?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

You thinking what I'm thinking, man? It's happened.

[Jamie Loftus]

This is almost a 20 year old sketch, you guys. Sorry about that. This was a Lonely island digital short starring Andy Samberg and Chris Parnell. That originally aired on SNL. And like a fair amount of early YouTube, the platform then relied on broadcast institutions to prop up their site, where users did not yet have the tools or the incentive to upload content of their own. And just months after Lazy Sunday, a character named Kelly came along. An independently produced sketch by Liam Kyle Sullivan.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Shut up, duck skink. I'm gonna back slap you, shitbag.

[Jamie Loftus]

Maybe you remember this video, and if you're thinking no, this other video I remember must have gone viral first. Probably not. The only real contender, and it would be a hard tie, is a video uploaded by comedian Jackson Lapley called Evolution of Dance, a video that Lapley himself uploaded to the site in April 2006. And we'll leave it at that, because I hope to make an episode with him in the future. But that's about it. Most of the early YouTube hits like Charlie Bit Me, Candy Mountain.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Charlie.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, Charlie, we're going to Candy Mountain.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Chocolate Rain. Some stay dry and others feel the pain.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. Chocolate Rain two weeks in a row. Pretty amazing. All of these clips came out at least a year after Shoes. And the only reason that I can't tell you the exact moment Shoes first became a hit on YouTube is because its first upload no longer exists. The video first appeared on the writer, director, and star's website early in the year, after what he describes as months producing the video with friends on the weekend and featuring a character that he'd honed on comedy stages in Los Angeles between acting gigs. That character was Kelly, profoundly mid 2000s in her aesthetic, wearing a blonde wig with bangs, fingerless gloves, thick black rimmed glasses, a miniskirt, and a pleather vest over a pink T shirt that says Super Femme. This would later be replaced with an iconic black T shirt that simply says Betch. The character is played by Liam, but Liam is not a known entity at this time. So to most fans of this video, it's not Liam. It's Kelly. The most popular upload of Shoes now includes an opening sketch that establishes a wider world of two conservative New England parents with teenage twins, a boy they're obsessed with, and Kelly, their daughter, who they demean at age every opportunity. But in the original video, it cuts right to the chase. A droning club beat kicks in after Kelly storms out of the house.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Kelly, what are you gonna do with your life? I'm going to get what I want.

[Jamie Loftus]

And what does Kelly want?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Shoes. Shoes. Shoes. Oh, my God. Shoes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Liam, Kyle Sullivan, aka Kelly. Your 16th minute start.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

16 minute of fam.

[Jamie Loftus]

16 minutes of fame.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

16 minutes of fame.

[Jamie Loftus]

One more minute. Welcome back to 16th minute, the podcast where we take a look back at the Internet's most famous characters of the day and figure out how their moment changed their lives and what it says about us and the Internet. I'm your host, Jamie Loftus, and I considered taking Taco Bell up on their $700 Vegas dinner, marriage, and Elvis impersonator deal for two whole minutes this week before realizing my mom would literally break me in half if I did that. And this week, we're returning to the mid-2000s to catch up with an Internet celebrity. All heimer, Liam, Kyle, Sullivan, and Kelly. And while the Internet had been around for some time, by the time we met the gorgeous Frankenstein who is Kelly, the concept of celebrity that began online was still very new, making our girl nothing short of a pioneer. So come with me, if you dare, to early 2006, the Pittsburgh Steelers win the Super Bowl. Go Yinzers. It's the year that junior highs would be shaken to its core by poor Borat impressions. And Liam. Kyle Sullivan's character Kelly became a star on YouTube, although Liam himself was basically the last person to know because, as I said, he didn't upload the Kelly video himself. So where did this mysterious uploader rip shoes and Liam's other massive viral hit from this year, muffins, from? Well, they downloaded it from his website, PSA. To my listeners under 25. There used to be this thing called websites. Children would have to learn how to make them on a different website called neopets.com. some of us still have them. I haven't updated mine in two years, and that was only because my diabolical ex agents wanted me to take their names off of the site. At the time Kelly went viral, Liam was kind of a technophobe. He was born in 1973, and like many Gen Xers with him, was punk rock skeptical of the Internet for some time before it involuntarily changed his life. And to be clear, so let me be clear, whoever uploaded shoes to YouTube wasn't doing it in order to make a quick buck before the creator could realize that he could make that same quick buck himself. Liam actually really encouraged people to download shoes, muffins, and other videos.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Come to Pleasant Valley Road in Santa Rosa, where you can have a warm picnic under the sun. It's always a beautiful day here at Pleasant Valley Road in Santa Rosa, which.

[Jamie Loftus]

I can tell you for sure, because when I visited his site on the Wayback machined, clicking on the muffins sketch automatically downloaded it to my computer. He'd first shown this sketch during his live shows because he literally did not know that YouTube existed yet. And what's more, there was no quick buck to be had on YouTube in 2006. Like so many moments in this story, you'll find that it is very arguable that Liam Kyle Sullivan went viral just a little too soon. Because this was not YouTube as we know it now. This was over a year and a half before YouTube accounts could monetize goddamn anything. It's months shy of Google's 1.65 billion acquisition of the platform in late 2006. There wasn't really a path for virality yet at this time because the site didn't financially incentivized successful users to stay. And mainstream entertainment still viewed web sensations as kind of entertainment second class citizens, although it never stopped them from trying to do something. Here's Kimmel in 2007.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

We are back.

[Jamie Loftus]

Katherine Bell is here with us.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

This song has been covered by the likes of John Mayer Trey Cool.

[Albertsons and Safeway Representative]

It's gotten more than 4 million views on YouTube alone. It easily gets my vote for song in the summer. From Minneapolis, please welcome Tay Zonday with.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

The song Chocolate Rain to tonight's Internet talent showcase.

[Jamie Loftus]

But before we can get to what Liam did with this unprecedented, nearly uncharted kind of success, let's get to know him a little better. Like all of our greatest artists and I'll say it, people, Liam Kyle Sullivan grew up in Massachusetts and went to a weird congregational church. By all accounts, his childhood was really nice, although elements would end up inspiring Kelly's family in his future work in Shoes, Liam plays Kelly's father, Kelly's twin brother, and Kelly, and told me that he developed their exaggerated sibling dynamic based on how his older sister was treated in comparison to him when they were growing up. While they were similarly good kids. Didn't drink, didn't do anything. Liam remembers that his sister had imposed rules and curfews that he never did, an exaggerated fate that he would later assign to Kelly in the sketch's extended intro.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Happy birthday, twins. A computer and a car. Thanks, mom and dad. Kelly, go ahead and open your present. What the hell?

[Jamie Loftus]

What'd you expect, Condams? It's a gigantic toy dinosaur. And before the needle drops for the beginning of the song, Kelly's parents both call her fat and slutty. Liam was a theater kid and went to Emerson College in Boston, wisely dropping out after a year like I should have. And that's because he was already accomplishing what he was going to school to study. He quickly started getting parts and became a fixture of the Boston theater scene at the time, focusing on straight ahead theater. I'm talking the Grapes of Wrath, A Midsummer Night's Dream, the Threepenny Opera, all pretty heavy stuff. And after a few years of that, he did what all perfect people do. He moved from Boston to Los Angeles. And by the late 1990s, Liam is a working actor trying to build out a career for himself. He appears uncredited in a 1999 episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Also in drag. He is in a Dick Wolf show called Players. He's in a Sundance indie, and he's in a bunch of commercials for Guinness, E. Trade, Dell, and PlayStation. A very solid resume, but not exactly creatively fulfilling in the way that playing Al Joad in Boston was. So Liam did what most actors who don't get into recreational sports or coke do. He started taking comedy classes. When I learned this, I realized that there were a few things that I had made false assumptions about with Liam before I met him for the first time. After watching the Kelly sketch for years, I felt sure that he had been doing comedy for years and years when this sketch came out. And I also felt sure that he'd done a lot of drag work, but neither of these things were really true. The Kelly costume isn't winning any drag race challenges anytime soon, But Liam embodies this character fully to the point where he says he was almost never recognized by his voice or appearance in public. And as for comedy, that was something he began doing around 2000 at the recommendation of a friend to branch out a little bit. And he ended up falling in love with sketch at the now shuttered Acme Comedy Theater in North Hollywood. So Kelly actually comes from his serious training as an actor and his personal life experience. And it's at Acme Comedy Theater that characters like Kelly begin to take shape. By the early to mid 2000s, he was performing and taking classes there regularly, leaving dramatic stage work mostly behind while taking on guest roles in film and tv, where they came. What's your favorite early Liam? Kyle Sullivan role? Jamie. Well, thanks for asking. That would have to be the photographer in season five episodes 13 and 14 of Gilmore Girls.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Wonderful. There we are. Okay, everyone in Just a little closer. That's perfect. Hold that.

[Jamie Loftus]

Good job, Liam. But if you asked Liam, he was probably most excited about his first meaningful recurring guest star role on TV on ABC's hit comedy 8 Simple Rules. He made these appearances in 2004 and 2005 while he worked on developing a solo sketch show simply titled A Liam show on the side. The role on 8 Simple Rules was a big break after years of hustling, but he managed to balance it with a Liam show as he continued to build out new characters, many of which would appear later on his YouTube channel in some form. Obviously, one of these characters was Ms. Kelly. So this all starts as a stage show, the kind of sketch show that involves a humid black box theater and running backstage to change wigs while top 40 music place between characters. It's a humble beginning, many such cases, but what made the difference was Liam's decision to start adding interstitial videos into the show to help them flow a little better. And Kelly was a popular enough character with his audience and he enjoyed playing the character enough, so he decided to make a video with her. We talk about it in our interview in more detail, but here's how Liam described the production of shoes on his website in February 2006 then I had.

[Karim Kubchandani]

Some ideas for funny short films. I thought if I could borrow equipment and shoot them with my friends, I could put them together and put up a show and have a whole lot of fun doing it. I called my friend Eduardo Cisneros and we made a whole bunch and then I put them together and here I've got a show and a website. I write, produce and direct everything. But Eduardo Cisneros and Rich Briglia have helped a lot with cinematography and co directing. I also edit everything myself. Bit of a control freak, yes, but in my experience, collaboration with friends always makes a better product. So I listen to my friend's ideas.

[Jamie Loftus]

This text appears alongside a picture of a young Liam reaching toward the camera with the caption Area Actor Gropes for Career Other stuff on this site includes the sale of a comedy DVD. Question mark he really was not an Internet guy. Anyways, this DVD sold for $10 and featured a collection of video sketches that he'd worked on with friends over the past few years. Most of these would eventually end up on YouTube as well. Titles include Dr. Ole, Sex Therapist, Fever Bitch, Muffins and Wait, hold on, let's circle back to Muffins.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Muffins, Muffins.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay, this episode is mainly focused on Kelly and the phenomenon that was the shoes video, but we should take a quick side quest to talk about Muffins because it was wildly successful as well and was also originally re uploaded to a primitive YouTube by someone who had originally downloaded it from Liam's website. The joke of Muffins is a little more Straightforward than Kelly lore. But it does feature another Liam Dragg character, one he says was loosely based on his mom. Mrs. Cunningham is an eager older homemaker in a short gray wig, a pink muumuu and an apron, forcing a series of bespoke muffin experiments on her unwilling test subject, her son Johnny.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

What would you like for breakfast, Johnny? Muffins. That's right. At Cunningham Muffins, we know that muffins make the best breakfast, so why not try all of our exciting new flavors?

[Jamie Loftus]

A bunch of you were like, oh my God, I remember that. Yes, you do. So the meat of the sketch is in how weird and eventually sinister the muffin flavors get. For every fan of this sketch, everyone has their favorite muffins. Here are paper clip, newspaper, fire, and at the end, you'll eat a muffin.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

You'll eat it and like it.

[Jamie Loftus]

God. Describing the jokes in a sketch is so miserable. Just go watch it. It's still up. It's good. The premise is very simple, it's well written, Liam's performance is great, and it's clearly independent, filmed on a random day in someone's crummy kitchen. Within a year or two of Muffin's release, there would be early YouTubers who would create similar, generally less good comedy for YouTube and other platforms. But seeing an independent sketch like Muffins or Shoes break through at the time, made by someone no one had heard of before, was a pretty new concept. Keep in mind, the only other sketch to have been super successful on YouTube at this time had literally been on SNL. But in these sketches, which are still Liam's most successful, a few consistent things stand out. They're independently produced, they're dark, but can be enjoyed by anybody. They feature drag characters, and they were not written and made with YouTube in mind. So let's go back to shoes and enjoy the glory of the video itself. So we know the general setup with Kelly as this neglected rebellious daughter in a middle class neighborhood who's shoe shopping to stick it to her parents. But the majority of the song is Kelly shoe shopping with her friends in multiple locations across la appraising shoes like this.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

These shoes rule. These shoes suck. These shoes rule. These shoes suck.

[Jamie Loftus]

The esthetic here could not be more mid 2000s. There's all of these, like quick zooms on Kelly's face. The shots are very high exposure, high contrast of her Doc Martens slamming the pavement of Melrose Avenue. And the camera will often cut to her friends in similar hot topic waist chain, low rise, khaki pants. Those Were so uncomfortable. It's this hyper feminine shopping montage. But the best part is that it has no patience for men whatsoever.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I think you have too many shoes. Shut up. I think you have too many shoes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Shut up.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I think you have too many shoes. Shut up. I think you have too many shoes. Shut up. Stupid boy. Stupid boy. Let's get some shoes. Let's party.

[Jamie Loftus]

During this sequence, Kelly is literally stepping on men. She steps on the camera at one point as a male shoe salesman cowers in fear. And then we cut to this huge pool party full of scene kids. And then back to Kelly to put her parents into debt once and for all.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

These shoes are 300 fucking dollars. Let's get em.

[Jamie Loftus]

And as many remember, Kelly ends the video by mouthing off to a snobby sales rep in the most iconic way possible.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Um, this style runs small. I don't think you're gonna fat. I mean your fader kind of bag. Oh, oh, oh, oh. By the way, Betch, fuck you. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.

[Jamie Loftus]

This whole sequence is intercut with random high exposure shots of hot girls in leather bikinis with flaming hula hoops. It's a whole vibe. And sure, is this a very 2000s sex and the City parody way of describing feminine liberation through shopping? Well, yeah, but that's the point. Kelly is a drag character. That's commentary on oppression experienced in white teen suburbia. Might not be the most radical thing in the world, but it was really different for this time during the Bush administration. It would be pretty unlikely to see a character like Kelly become this prominent by being supported by traditional media engines. And what's more, you can't help but root for Kelly. Her parents treat her like shit and so she puts them into credit card debt. It's a recession era fantasy. In decolonized drag, Kareem Kubchandani draws attention to a far more diverse group of drag performers doing their equivalent of this. Building out the world of their drag characters by pulling from their personal life, as Liam did from his New England childhood with Kelly. And when Kelly and Shoes hits YouTube, it goes nuts. But Liam doesn't realize this right away. He's staying on his normal actor grind. He's getting a bit part on Alias. He's continuing to perform on stage at Acme. The Internet is a part of his plan to grow his career, but it's not the plan. And unlike today, where the viral life of a video can rise and fall in the space of a couple hours, it took Shoes months to catch on. When the pace of the Internet was much slower in Liam's recollection. It was weeks before he heard his videos had been both uploaded and extremely successful on YouTube, and had only even heard of the platform because someone he did comedy with had told him about it. And once he found out, he had to figure out what to do about it. I have tried so hard to figure this out, but it is unclear exactly when the first upload of Shoes disappeared or how many views it had when it did. But the primary upload of the video is now on Liam Kyle Sullivan's channel, uploaded in April 2006. His upload of the shorter Shoes music video is made in early May, and According to a Vice 10 year retrospective of the video from 2016, Liam wasn't convinced it was big big until that September when the video was featured on a Los Angeles early morning show called Good Day LA Shows.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Oh my God.

[Jamie Loftus]

This is Shoes. This is my new favorite song. Listen.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Shoes. Shoes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Hello Kelly.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Oh my God. Shoes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh my God. Kelly is a drag queen.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Let's get some shoes.

[Jamie Loftus]

And she lives here.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Let's get the shift.

[Dime Beauty Representative]

Does she use your pool?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Let's get some shifts. Totally.

[Jamie Loftus]

What? And Liam was so excited about this that he actually uploaded this clip himself, which was quickly followed by shout outs on TRL and more and more press in the mainstream. Not just to say, have you seen this video, Shoes? But just as much to say, have you heard of this new thing called YouTube? And boy would we. Liam seems to understand in the moment that in the short term, his newly minted YouTube channel is where people are going to go to see his work. And so he starts planning to release new videos featuring Kelly. Was this always the master plan? Turns out, not really. He told Vice in 2016.

[Karim Kubchandani]

I had written a bunch of songs and actually had to be persuaded by my friend to shoot a video for Shoes. But I had no idea I'd be doing so many different things with her. At some point. I was just throwing everything out there, like, what else can I do with Kelly?

[Jamie Loftus]

Turns out a lot. But again, keep in mind that the trickle of viral content at this time worked much, much slower. Liam filled the space it took to produce new Kelly videos by uploading his back catalog of sketches, including a re upload of muffins and other videos that had appeared on his DVD. In June 2006, Liam released an entire album of music from Kelly, including a lot of hits that would later translate to future music videos like such as.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

You couldn't do it in person, you had to text message breakup.

[Jamie Loftus]

This One features major Kelly fan Margaret Cho as, I think, a dominatrix. Liam would actually go on to tour with her. As an opener shortly after the Shoes video first blew up. Then there's no booty calls.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Oh, what are you saying? You want to get together? I want you to come over all dressed up in leather like you used to do back in 02. You give me nice dreams, make me want to scream. That's not happening again. That was back then. And now I'm interested in bigger and better men. No booty calls Dax. Nobody calls Jackson. That's not happening.

[Jamie Loftus]

And I think most successfully. Let me borrow that top.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Let me borrow that top. Let me borrow that top. Let me borrow that top. I want to borrow that top.

[Jamie Loftus]

And while these hits didn't hit the heights that Shoes had, they were all successful to the tune of millions of views. And they also expand upon Kelly lore. We meet more members of her family, cleverly integrated by Liam from other characters that he did in his one man show. Plus a cool hot vampire best friend named Heather. And for my money, in these future videos, Liam hammers down repeatedly on the empowerment of Kelly's character, even as the people around Kelly continuously fail her. Whether it's her strict parents, asshole boyfriends, or girls who think they're better than her, Kelly and her friends always have endless confidence in her. It's never, oh, my God, I'm so insecure. I'm a loser. It's, you've wronged me. I know it. And now I'm going to eat you for fucking dinner.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

My ex BF is a cyberspace coward and he plays with his asshole in the shower.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm going to tell oh, my girlfriend.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

How bad this sex was. I'm pissed like President Bush would be at a gay parade in Texas. If that confused you, I'm gonna have to lose you. Go back to first grade and get yourself a blues clue. I don't even know what ever made me choose you because we're good together, but I can do better. What are you saving it for? You're not even wearing it. You're not gonna wear it. Let me borrow it.

[Jamie Loftus]

And while this round of viral Kelly videos released between 2006 and 2008 appealed to really anyone who was remotely logged in at the time. It seemed to appeal to kids quite a bit, I think, because Kelly was really funny, but she was also really cool. You were never ever laughing at her the way that you see punching down drag comedy that we talked about earlier in this episode. She was awesome. YouTube monetization. Would come around via their infamous partners program in late 2007. But in the meantime, Liam grew the character and made ends meet in other ways. One was touring his act through the country with Margaret Cho and solo, appearing as himself and doing standup about being Kelly. Most of the clips from this tour were uploaded by fans who attended back in 2007 and feature Liam talking about how becoming Kelly made him a better man.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Kind of sexy. And so I was like, how do I do that? And so it was a little struggle, but the. The biggest struggle was finding women's clothes in the stores, because I had no fucking idea one size in this brand is a totally different size than this other brand. What the fuck is up with that? Somebody needs to, like, organize that shit and then, like, everything. Guys, you know why women asked, does this make me look fat? It's because everything you wear as a woman makes you feel fat. It's like nothing comes in your size. Like, I go in and I was like, you know, I'm a guy, but I'm not like, huge or anything. And I go in, I say, oh, this is a nice little top here. Do you have this in a large? And the girl's like, now it's like, fuck you, okay? And so there's that and then there's makeup. Like, I found out how fucking hard it is to do your face in the mirror. And you know, guys, when you're like, come on, honey, hurry up, it's time to go. What the fuck's taking so long in the bathroom? It's because there's a lot of fucking work to do in there.

[Jamie Loftus]

And while they're on the lower side of views, Liam also made sketches with Kelly between music video releases that in retrospect, are sort of reflecting on the experiences that Liam was going through in real life while trying to translate Kelly's online fame to a more traditional acting career. In August 2007, he released Kelly's Hollywood Meeting, where a series of identical looking white guy agents desperately try to sign Kelly while having basically no idea what she does.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

YouTube.

[Jamie Loftus]

My tube.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

It's everyone's tube. When you touch it, it's a tube. I went to Harvard. We've got to sign you. We've got to have you today. Now. Record deal radio show 1 billion Chinese. What's that mean? 2 billion shoes, right, Kelly, I saw one set of footprints. You were carrying him in the other hand.

[Albertsons and Safeway Representative]

Christ was off making a campfire or something gay.

[Jamie Loftus]

Was that a young Chris Hardwick? No need to look him up if you haven't heard of him, he was cancelled and acquired by Hearst Media. No comment. The sketch continues.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Kelly, the Shoes video, the shoes album, Shoes. I mean, it's a no brainer. We've got to sign you. We need you.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

We love it.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

We love you. We need you to be part of us. We want to make money off of.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, we want to make money for you.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Let's get some, huh?

[Jamie Loftus]

So, yeah, Liam seems to be poking at the fact that people were eager to profit off of Kelly, but didn't really know what to do with her. In the sketch, the agents are trying to get her to sell cereal called Honey Nut Shetbag, and because Kelly takes shit from no one, she lets these guys have it.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

What was Ah.

[Jamie Loftus]

The video ends with a woman flipping off the camera and a teaser for Kelly's new music video. Let me borrow that top. The message is clear. Kelly isn't gonna sell out. Kelly is punk rock. Liam admitted in an interview with People that came out this past week that he doesn't really feel comfortable expressing anger, but Kelly does, and that's empowering for him.

[Karim Kubchandani]

I get really uncomfortable with anger. It's hard for me to express it because I just kind of get scary. But when Kelly does it, there's something about it that connects because there's a lot of injustice in the world and we've got to address it around this time.

[Jamie Loftus]

He also stars in a short lived VH1 sitcom in 2007 called I Hate My 30s while continuing to upload to YouTube as Kelly and himself with his other characters. The in between videos are simpler by necessity, mostly tour promotion or fan appreciation montages. The last major Kelly music video was released in 2008 called Where do you think you're going in that? Where Kelly's mother calls out her perfect Hot Topic outfit and incorrectly translated Chinese character tattoo. Excuse me, where do you think you're going in that? You're gonna march right upstairs. That's what you're gonna do. March it. Kelly doesn't even speak in this one. It's just an increasingly demented club beat of her mother's criticisms of her outfit, while Kelly becomes increasingly glamorous and adored. It's what the kids are now calling recession core released during the 2008 recession. I'm not sure what's happening now. I think it is not sure what to do during the rise of fascism Core. Liam also wins a People's Choice award at this time for shoes over two years after it came out in the category best user generated video. Should have e got it. But even if you're a big fan of Kelly, which I consider myself to be, shoes, text message, breakup, and can I borrow that top? Are as big as it got outside of the longtime fans. Make no mistake, Kelly's legacy was absolutely cemented in YouTube lore. Liam says that he's been reached out to incessantly to recognize the 20 year anniversary of YouTube recently, and that plenty of people say watching his work is the first time they remember watching YouTube at all. But because of how little the media landscape understood the Internet at this time, Liam never saw the profit that a creator would. Today, with an equal number of eyes in an equal number of eyes, we're talking hundreds of millions of views is basically unheard of today. It's no exaggeration to say that Liam at his peak was commanding Walter Cronkite numbers, but at the time, those eyes were not perceived as having value. It's fucked, right? In retrospect, it makes me genuinely irritated how it's YouTube that benefits from Liam's creativity, while the system that legitimized YouTube as a star maker never nurtured his career in the way he deserved. And this is a straight white guy. Think of all of the people more marginalized than Liam that never stood a chance at this. But Kelly continued, as did Liam, posting primarily and most successfully as his star character as well as his coterie of other characters for the next five years or so, while continuing to maintain his mainstream acting career. The most famous non Kelly character he did was Aunt Susan, Kelly's gay aunt, who he released a second album as in 2009 titled Susan Walker's Greatest Tits.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

My name is Susan Walker. Go Raiders.

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't know. Into the 2010s, the Kelly character rolls with the times. During a YouTube culture that was becoming increasingly popular, algorithmically driven and relying more on search engine optimization than the weird ingenuity that introduced us to her in the first place. During this era, we get Kelly vlogs with the character taking questions to camera directly.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Kelly, what do you think about Kim Kardashian? Well, she's a hot batch. Kelly, please talk about Kony. Okay, I saw Kony 2012 and then I saw all the controversy and backlash against this director who made it. And I was all, this guy's just trying to help people in Africa. What did you do today? Betch, lay off.

[Jamie Loftus]

But by the time the last of these videos were released in 2012, YouTube had changed a lot. This was a year where PewDiePie and Jenna Marbles were the most successful users on the platform where being a YouTuber was now considered a job and where users now needed to branch out to multiple different platforms in order to fully thrive. And by this time Liam was happily married. In a story that I'm going to let him tell you because it is so great, he was starting a family and behind the scenes was struggling with keeping the character up during a version of YouTube that he was somewhat less than enthusiastic about. And so while Liam continued to post videos as other characters for a while after this, Kelly all but disappeared for a period of years. And Liam pivoted to a series of full time jobs with a skill that he wouldn't have had without Kelly. Video editing for the Internet, specifically working for the fine brothers Nickelodeon and Defy Media, meaning honest trailers, smosh, etc. Over the next several years and things as Kelly are quiet for a bit. YouTube of course, grows into a behemoth over the 2010s and by the 10th anniversary of shoes in 2016, the platform's modus operandi has shifted to clickbaity headlines, vaguely radicalizing content, buzzfeed video, and to Liam's benefit, content that got people nostalgic for the early Internet. This is the year that Liam appeared on the then fine brothers channel in a video called YouTubers React to Viral Video Classic in which either now canceled or niche YouTubers of yore, most notably Shane Dawson, watched and reflected on the influence Shoes had had on the platform. In Liam's standalone videos, we get a clearer idea of who he is 10 years later and really who he's always been. A very thoughtful, sweet person who is surprised that his creation has had such an impact on people.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

When I was looking at all the stuff that YouTube provides, like you can look at who's watching and when they stop watching. And with that in my head, I became like an executive thinking business rather than creative. I could never really get back to that kind of like, alright guys, we're gonna make a video. Isn't this cool? It was all. It became much more of a business. So the YouTubers in this episode talked about this video as being one of the most important in YouTube history. And some specifically even mentioned how you inspired them to do what they do on YouTube. I mean, that's incredible. Wow, that's amazing.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's so lovely seeing how Liam takes this in. But he had his own relationship with the Kelly character as well as the stress and burnout that can come with Internet churn and the pressure of trying to make something happen. While he and Kelly had a solid legacy, it had never quite turned into the multi million dollar career that we see today with YouTubers who are working with far less cultural clout, and it was up to him to process that. So for the moment, the character stayed inactive. Kelly didn't return to YouTube until all the way in 2020 when she came back for a Lockdown Theme Mask Endorsement.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Let'S wear a mask, let's wear a mask, let's wear a mask, let's wear a mask.

[Jamie Loftus]

But aside from his few other lockdown era livestreams, Kelly didn't really come back in earnest. Liam and his wife Alana had a second kid and continued on their respective career paths. Liam went on to work for BuzzFeed Video and is currently an editor for the Try Guys. Fun fact, but things changed last summer and Liam couldn't stay away from Kelly any longer. Last year Liam was contacted by a Pride event in LA asking him to perform as Kelly. He hadn't performed as her on stage, or really much on stage at all for nearly a decade at that point, but the event pushed because they explained Kelly was a queer icon and after the better part of two decades creating, accidentally becoming famous from and not quite making a career of Kelly because of timing, Liam suddenly saw his creation in a new way. Not as a vehicle, but as someone who really meant something to people, including him. My Conversation with Liam Kyle Sullivan when we.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The New Year's here, it's the perfect time to refresh those household essentials and score some cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive from toothpaste to dish soap, chances are you've got Colgate Palmolive products on your shopping list and in your house. Right now we're talking brands like Colgate Soft Soap, Palmolive, Irish Spring, Fabuloso, and Tom's of Maine. And right now you can get up to a $10 digital visa per prepaid card when you buy up to $30 of Colgate Palmolive products. Here's how it Spend $20 on their products. Get $5 spend $30. Get a $10 reward. All you do is shop your favorite brands, snap a pic of your receipt and upload it to cprewards.com it's so easy. That's cprewards.com so grab what you need or maybe try something new and get rewarded just for doing your usual shopping. And start your year fresh by earning cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive Rewards available while supplies last limit Supply US Only 1125 through 33125 for full terms and conditions visit cprewards.com@ameca Insurance we know.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

It'S more than just a car or a house. It's the four wheels that get you where you're going and the four walls that welcome you home. When you when you combine auto and home insurance with Amica, we'll help protect it all. And the more you cover, the more you can save Amica. Empathy is our best policy.

[Albertsons and Safeway Representative]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest For Albertsons and Safeway. February is the month of love. And while you're spending time showing love to your family and friends, make sure you show yourself some love too. Now through February 25th shop in store and online and save on self love Items from Dove like Dove Cucumbers, Cucumber and Green Tea Body Wash, Dove Deep Moisture Nourishing body wash, dove antiperspirants, dove shampoos and dove conditioners. Offer ends Feb. 25. Offers may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Dime Beauty Representative]

Ready to prioritize yourself in the new year? Your skin is a great place to start. Dime Beauty, founded by a master esthetician, is more than just a skincare company. With four skin conscious categories Skincare, Beauty, Body Care and Fragrance. DAIM offers simple, spa worthy products that will help you enter 2025 with confidence. Whether you're revitalizing your regimen with nourishing products or building one from scratch, DAIM makes it easy. The Work System Our all in one best selling routine includes a cleanser of your choice, toners, serums and moisturizers. Taking the guesswork out of skincare for your healthiest, happiest skin yet. Dime's commitment to clean ingredients and sustainable packaging ensures every product is as gentle on your skin as it is on the it. With thousands of glowing five star reviews and a loyal community, the results speak for themselves. Revive your skin and give yourself the routine refresh you deserve by visiting dimebeautyco.com that's dimebeautyco.com your best skin awaits.

[Jamie Loftus]

Welcome back to 16th Minute. I'll be at the Liam show this Thursday in Los Angeles, Will you? Two weekends ago, Liam generously agreed to meet up with me at the Lyric Hyperion Theater in la, the place where he's currently building out his solo show about his history with Kelly Featuring Kelly. It's also where I've built out most of my own shows over the years, and somewhere I think a lot of really special stuff happens. Anyways, this is an interview that we did in the Lyric Hyperion Cafe, so it does sound like that. But honestly, I kind of like it. We're in a place we're both comfortable in. We're drinking coffee, we're shooting the shit, and we're being from New England, so this was a pretty lengthy conversation. So I'll share the first part here, and we're going to air the rest in a second part this Thursday. So consider this your invitation to an informal 16th minute hang with Liam and Jamie. Go Bruins.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

My name is Liam Kyle Sullivan, and I'm known for the Shoes and muffins videos on YouTube that I made almost 20 years ago.

[Jamie Loftus]

That feels crazy for me. I can't imagine how it feels for you.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Sometimes it's like it was yesterday, and other times, like. Yeah, that feels about right. 20 years.

[Jamie Loftus]

We met at the Lyric, which is where you're workshopping your show. Is this the first time you're talking extensively about your life and, like, about Liam on stage and, like, your connection to Kelly?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Whoa.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Yeah, I think it was because last year we got an invite to perform Kelly at a club downtown. It was a show called what's My Age Again?

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, okay.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

It's a nostalgia show.

[Jamie Loftus]

Nice.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

At Precinct. I talk about it in the show. At first, I said in my head, I said no. Cause I kind of closed that chapter, at least in my mind. I'd made one video during the pandemic about masks, but I hadn't performed live as Kelly in easily 10 years, I think.

[Jamie Loftus]

Was there a specific decision made to be like, I'm done, or it just sort of happened?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

No, it just sort of happened.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I was hot for, I don't know, two, three years. And then by year five, I was like, oh, really cooled off. And I wasn't able to parlay it. Hi, Jake.

[Jamie Loftus]

Hi, Jake.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Into more, you know, traditional television or film success. And I just couldn't keep up with how the landscape had changed. You had to post so much, and I was still kind of operating on the release of a music video every six months or something like that.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I was still in that mind frame, so I just kind of stopped. And then when I got that email, I was like, wow, this is something I never thought I would do again. I ended up doing it.

[Jamie Loftus]

How did it feel?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

It felt amazing. It felt really good.

[Jamie Loftus]

Good.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

There were so many people who I met who were just really happy to meet me. And I was under the impression that, you know, I was kind of like old news. But people told me, no, I saw you when I was, like, 13. It just inspired me, you know, I thought maybe I Could be a youtuber or I can do drag even. Somebody told me it helped them to like come out.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's amazing.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

It's amazing, right? And I just felt so good about that. And I realized that I hadn't really engaged with that audience because I was 32 when I made the video. Talking to kids online seemed inappropriate at.

[Jamie Loftus]

The time, which a lot of YouTubers don't seem to realize.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Well, yeah, but I think maybe times have changed a little. I don't know. But at the time it was new and so it just. It seemed like, no, I'm not gonna engage with a 13 year old online. Or I didn't know how old people were sometimes.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm so glad you had that experience at presume because it does feel like with the Internet there is a different kind of attachment. It feels weirdly closer. And I don't know why that is, but I think especially in the early.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Days of YouTube, I think also there was no algorithm controlling what you saw. So it felt more like I found this. It was more like the music business used to be where you go and find records or find bands on your own and they felt so personal to you. Yeah, I think maybe that's part of it because it was new and corporations hadn't found it yet.

[Jamie Loftus]

When I look back in YouTube history and it's like, oh, yeah, if you were on the. For your page anytime before 2013, it was because a person saw your video and was like, this is amazing. And it just feels like, you know, when a person sees your video, there is no agenda other than this video is really good.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

It felt a little like a meritocracy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. What happened to that?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

What happened?

[Jamie Loftus]

I don't know. Anyways, precinct. You're at precinct.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

So that experience was so inspiring to me that I thought, why don't I do a show? Like go back to. Because I used to do live shows all the time.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I called the Milliam show and I do sketches, I do short videos. That's where I first started making videos was for my live show. It wasn't for YouTube. And so. Cause YouTube didn't exist. But I thought, oh, let me try this again. And this time instead of doing a bunch of characters and like standup stuff, I could do like. Like tell my story. And it was challenging because I talk about this in the show too. When people know the Kelly character in shoes and then they meet me, they're kind of like, huh, you're not slay. You know, you're not fabulous or sassy. And I'm like, no, I'm not, but it's in there. So I don't know if you ever saw Teen Wolf with Michael J. Fox where he turns into a wolf and he's an amazing basketball player, but when he's a human, you know, he's just, okay, yeah, I'm kind of in that zone now. I'm like, no, I want to play the game as a human, as myself.

[Jamie Loftus]

And then Kelly's your inner Teen Wolf?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Kelly's my inner Teen Wolf, yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Is it about that period of your life? Is it about your whole life?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I mean, there's whole life stuff sprinkled in. Like, I talk about my mother, my father, my sister, my friends, people who inspired me, some celebrities that I've met, the experience in the industry and how unique it was at that particular time. I talk a lot about that and where I'm at now and how that experience last year at Precinct was kind of a springboard for other gigs. Like, I'm glad that I can still do it. I remember being scared to get on stage again with a microphone, and, you know, the music and the crowd is all, like, pumped up. And I got up there and I forgot how to work a microphone. Like, there was a little on button, and I completely forgot to turn it on. And I just started talking.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, that long? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

So then I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, turn it on. And people thought it was a bit like, that I was being funny. So I played it off that way. The crowd was so warm. They just buoyed me. You know, they kept me up and loving and, like, I could have fallen on my face and they would have been like, great. Okay. It's good to see you, man. You know, hearing people's stories was just like, oh, my God, I gotta keep doing this, you know? And so I went up to San Francisco. I booked a gig at San Francisco Pride, which was amazing. People would tell me, I hope you're getting your flowers. You know?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

And it felt so good. I was like, wow, okay. Yeah, I'll take some flowers. Thank you.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, you've earned them. And, like, finding this sort of this new joy in it. That's amazing.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

It's a total new joy. Yeah. Because for a while, I felt really trapped by it. Because when you're famous for something, was it Taylor Swift who said you'd kind of get frozen in that time? Like, I couldn't seem to break out of it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I had to keep doing it, and I think it kind of made me feel like a robot. Like, do the song and then go home. Or do, you know, do something Kelly. That's it. And so I felt I'm not growing at all. I feel a little, like a little hackish, you know?

[Jamie Loftus]

More with Liam Kyle Sullivan when we're back.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The New Year's here. It's the perfect time to refresh those household essentials and score some cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive. From toothpaste to dish soap, chances are you've got Colgate Palmolive products on your shopping list and in your house. Right now we're talking brands like Colgate Soft Soap, Palmolive, Irish Spring, Fabuloso, and Tom's of Maine. And right now, you can get up to a $10 digital Visa prepaid card when you buy up to $30 of Colgate Palmolive products. Here's how it spend $20 on their products. Get $5 spend $30 get a $10 reward. All you do is shop your favorite brands, snap a pic of your receipt and upload it to cprewards.com it's so easy. That's CP reverse rewards.com so grab what you need. Or maybe try something new and get rewarded just for doing your usual shopping. And start your year fresh by earning cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive. Rewards available while supplies last. Limit Supply us only 1125 through 33125 for full terms and conditions. Visit cprewards.com every day, our world gets.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

A little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Thank you for calling Amica Insurance.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Hey, I was just in an accident.

[Jamie Loftus]

Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

At Ameca, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking. It's human. Amica Empathy is our best policy.

[Albertsons and Safeway Representative]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest. For Albertsons and Safeway, February is the month of love. And while you're spending time showing love to your family and friends, make sure you share. Show yourself some love, too. Now through February 25th. Shop in store and online and save on self love items from Dove, like Dove Cucumber and Green Tea Body Wash, Dove Deep Moisture Nourishing Body Wash, Dove Antiperspirants, Dove Shampoos and Dove conditioners. Offer ends February 25th. Offers may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Dime Beauty Representative]

Ready to prioritize yourself in the new year? Your skin is a great place to start. Dime Beauty founded by a master Esthetician is more than just a skincare company. With four skin conscious categories, Skincare, Beauty, body care and fragrance. Daim offers simple, spa worthy products that will help you enter 2025 with confidence. Whether you're revitalizing your regimen with nourishing products or building one from scratch, Dime makes it easy. The work system, our all in one best selling routine includes a cleanser of your choice, toners, serums and moisturizers. Taking the guesswork out of skincare for your healthiest, happiest skin yet. Dime's commitment to clean ingredients and sustainable packaging ensures every product is as gentle on your skin as it is on the planet. With thousands of glowing five star reviews and a loyal community, the results speak for themselves. Revive your skin and give yourself the routine refresh you deserve by visiting dimebeautyco.com that's dimebeautyco.com your best skin awaits.

[Jamie Loftus]

Welcome back to 16th Minute. Here's more of my interview with Liam Kyle Sullivan. I want to go back a little bit to that first moment. So Kelly came out of your live shows or.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Yeah, I was, I was doing sketch comedy in the late 90s, early 2000s here in LA. I was with a sketch group called Another Showcase Showdown. This was the Acme Comedy Theater. I think sketch really helped me as a performer because before that I was doing like straight theater like I would do in Boston.

[Jamie Loftus]

Nice. Oh, I've got questions about, yeah, I've got questions about Massachusetts. I've noticed her hat.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Oh, yeah, Fenway. I would do plays and I did, you know, Shakespeare and Brecht and Noel Coward because that's what theaters were doing. And so that's where I auditioned. And luckily I got cast. But when I moved out here, I was like, okay, let me keep doing theater. That's what I knew. And I did someplace. But, you know, I was like, well, I have to get into tv. I didn't move out here to just, just do theater. You know, I was doing showcases and stuff like that. And I was doing a play. I was doing the Misanthrope by Moliere. And a friend of mine said, you know, you should look into sketch comedy. Cause you're kind of out there like your characters. When you do something, you go balls to the wall. And I was like, yeah, that's how you're supposed to do it, right? And she's like, but I think sketch would really suit you. Yeah, it's like, okay. So that's when I found sketch. And I was like, oh, improv sketch, you know, stand Up. All that came later. And I was like, oh, okay, this is really fun. I can write my own stuff. I didn't know I could do that well.

[Jamie Loftus]

And you had the hardest part out of the way where you already knew how to perform.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

And later, when I found Sketch, I branched out into playing women because I have, you know, kind of an effeminate. I'm an effeminate heterosexual. I'll just say it. And so I leaned into that and I found much more power in that and artistic freedom than trying to butch up and play parts that I would never get cast at, you know, I'm not gonna play a jock.

[Jamie Loftus]

Were you a comedy fan as a kid or did you have like favorites as a kid?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Yeah, I loved comedy. My sister and I used to wake up early to watch the Three Stooges because they came on at like 6 in the morning on Saturday mornings, I guess, later, SNL. We were one of the first families that I knew to get a VCR. My father was a. He worked at Channel 5. WCVB CV.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, yeah.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

He did editing and stuff. And he knew all that technology really well. He had to convince me to buy a computer.

[Jamie Loftus]

Really?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. Good for him.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

When I was like, you know, late 20s or whatever, like, I didn't have email for a long time. Kids in the hall too. When I was a teenager, I loved Kids in the Hall.

[Jamie Loftus]

A very drag heavy sketch group. I mean, a lot of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

And they did it like it was not like they were playing a woman. They weren't doing a glamorous. And that's how that informed me too. I got to meet Bruce McCullough.

[Jamie Loftus]

Amazing.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

From going viral. And it was so cool to sit down with him and have a conversation like we were peers. Like, he treated me like a peer. He called me brother. It was so great. And nothing came of it, but just that one meeting was so. You know how they say never meet your heroes? Not always. He was wonderful.

[Jamie Loftus]

You know, Monty Python, it's like they do a lot of drag, but they're sort of making fun of women in the way that they do drag. But the kids in the hall never were. And Kelly never was. Like, it was just like, this is just. This is the character.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Yeah. This is a real person.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I wanted so badly to make her look and act like a real person. I mean, she's a little exaggerated, but just the look especially. And I remember getting comments like, are you a boy or a girl? And I was like, yes. Yeah. Cause I wanted people to kind of not See it as like, oh, here's some guy thinking he's making fun of women or something like that. That's not what I wanted, but.

[Jamie Loftus]

And it never felt that way. Did you originally make these videos to be posted? Did you make them to be shown live? Like, how did that. Like, what made you decide to add in video?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Well, I had been making short videos for my live show. So I would do like a character on stage with a monologue or a song, and then I'd show a video and go backstage and change as a new character and come back out.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

And I had about an hour. Another aspect was, well, what about a film festival? Like, slam dance? And so shoes did not get accepted.

[Jamie Loftus]

But wow, Egon, they're fucking face, right?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

No, no. And then I had a website, and I'd seen what Lonely island had done, right. And I was like, oh, okay. So you make a website and you put videos up and then you invite industry to that somehow. Like, that was. It was not a fully formed plan at all.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right. But just kind of like an online portfolio kind of thing.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Yeah. But it was also like, I want to create my own work because that is A, satisfying. B, can be really fun. C, it gets you working. Even though you're not getting paid, you're working. So when you're working, you have a vibe. When you walk into someplace, like an audition that says, hey, I've got shit going on. Yeah, like, this isn't my whole day.

[Jamie Loftus]

The video is taken from your website and uploaded to YouTube, not by you. Originally.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Originally, yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow. So how long did it take you to find out? It was A, there and B, very popular.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

It took a month or so because now things go viral and they're kind of over. Like, it takes maybe a day or a week or very short time.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

But back then it was still so new. Like, viral video didn't exist really. So it took people time to find things. You know, I think you had to, like, send a link via email. I heard about it. Word of mouth.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wild.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Yeah. Someone just told me in person, said, do you know about this YouTube you're on there? And so I made a channel. I put my video up. So there are so many iterations. Is that the word of it out there? And muffins, too. I remember very specifically the one there was an upload of muffins that had 30 million views and it was some other person who did it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Crazy.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Isn't that crazy?

[Jamie Loftus]

What was your relationship with the Internet like before all of this?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I had no relationship whatsoever.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right. So this, like, forces you to change that, right? Like, oh, yeah.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I had to adapt myself, right? Yeah. Even email.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, right.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

You didn't want anything to get back to people. They'd be like, I just emailed you. I'm like, I don't. Come on, guys. Because when, you know, things started heating up for me, I kind of had to, in those meetings that I got, kind of explain a little bit, like, how I got to where I was, how I made it to this meeting.

[Jamie Loftus]

You've got eyes on you, but they're not on your account. Like, what? Yeah. What did. What did you first do?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

I mean, my first reaction was excitement.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

Because I felt like this was a great thing. This was a showcase for me. People were seeing me, I was getting attention, and maybe they would find their way back to my site and know who I was. Or. I. I loved it. I loved seeing that people liked my work. The fact that it was other people uploading it didn't even register as, like, oh, hey, wait.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right. Cause I wouldn't have been weird then. Really?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

It wasn't. There was no Rev Share. It was like this underground thing that the grownups didn't know about yet. And it was really fun and cool. That's awesome. Yeah, I loved it. And only later, when Rev Share became a thing, did I realize what I'd missed out on. Like, if I'd waited a year or.

[Jamie Loftus]

Two, it's like, how could you have known?

[Liam Kyle Sullivan]

But how could I. Yeah. No one could predict the future. And I've stopped beating myself up about that. I talk about that in the show, too. How I needed therapy.

[Jamie Loftus]

Thank you so much again to Liam. And if you're listening to this and are in the LA area the week this episode comes out, I will see you at the show on February 27th. I am so excited. And part two of this interview will be released on February 27th, this Thursday. And you're gonna want to tune back in to hear how Liam and his wife Alana met. It's truly amazing. There's so much more I could say about Liam's work, about its effect on YouTube, about its effect on drag, about its very personal legacy for a lot of kids who are now adults and remember Kelly as this cool punk, rock, fuck you, mom channel of early Internet anger. But honestly, I'm just so personally very inspired by Liam. Not just by his creativity, but by his willingness to connect with his creation's legacy. And there's a lot more to come.

[Ryan Seacrest]

See you Thursday.

[Jamie Loftus]

16Th Minute is a production of Cool Zone Media and iHeartRadio. It is written, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The Amazing Ian Johnson is our Supervising Producer and our editor. Our theme song is by Sad13. Voice acting is from Grant Crater and pet shout outs to our dog producer Anderson. My cats Fleeing Casper and my pet Rockford who will outlive us all. Bye.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The New Year's here. It's the perfect time to refresh those household essentials and score some cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive. From toothpaste to dish soap, chances are you've got Colgate Palmolive products on your shopping list and in your house. Right now we're talking brands like Colgate Soft Soap, Palmolive, Irish Spring, Fabuloso and Toms of Maine. And right now you can get up to a $10 digital Visa prepaid card when you buy up to $30 of Colgate Palmolive products. Here's how it Spend $20 on their products get $5 spend $30 get a $10 reward. All you do is shop your favorite brands, snap a pic of your receipt and upload it to cprewards.com it's so easy. That's cprewards.com so grab what you need. Or maybe try something new and get rewarded just for doing your usual shopping. And start your year fresh by earning cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive rewards available while supplies last, limit Supply US only 1125 through 331 25. For full terms and conditions, visit cprewards.com.

[Albertsons and Safeway Representative]

Do you own a business that's ready to thrive? It's time to let Intuit QuickBooks take things like unpaid invoices and tracking expenses off your plate so you can take things to the next level. Intuit QuickBooks is an all in one business platform platform that can help with those day to day tasks like invoicing and expenses. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks your way to Money Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc. Licensed as a money Transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Now through February 25th. Stock up on your favorite self care items and save up to $3. Shop in store or online for items like Old Spice Deodorant Always Ultra thin pads, Gillette Fusion razors and refills, Old Spice Total Body Spray, Tampax Pearl and Gillette Mach three razors and refills and save up to $3 you won't want to miss out on these deals. Offer ends February 25th. Offers may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details. Famous Smoke's been offering the best selection of premium cigars at the best prices for 85 years, and somehow they're still the best kept secret, family owned and stocked with millions of cigars, all delivered fast and fresh to your door. Go online to famous smoke.com and use code CLAY. For 20 bucks off your order of 99 or more, get your favorite brands like Fuente, Romeo, Monte Cristo and Cohiba, or try something new. Get the best cigars at better prices than your local shop. Famous smoke.com promo code clay.