surviving the manosphere: teachers, researchers & ex-members speak out

Summary

Sixteenth Minute (of Fame) Episode Summary: "Surviving the Manosphere: Teachers, Researchers & Ex-Members Speak Out"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Sixteenth Minute (of Fame)
• Host: Jamie Loftus, Cool Zone Media and iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: Surviving the Manosphere: Teachers, Researchers & Ex-Members Speak Out
• Release Date: December 24, 2024

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Introduction

In the concluding episode of their insightful miniseries on the manosphere, Jamie Loftus delves deep into the intricate and often troubling world of online male supremacist movements. This episode brings together a diverse group of voices—including ex-members, researchers, and educators—to explore the roots, impacts, and potential solutions to the pervasive issues stemming from the manosphere.

Overview of the Manosphere

Jamie opens the episode by recapping the journey of the series, which examined the evolution of the manosphere from its early formations in response to feminist and progressive movements to its current fragmented state across various online platforms. She emphasizes that the manosphere is not merely a collection of misogynistic rhetoric but a complex ecosystem influenced by late capitalism, systemic failures, and the isolation fostered by the internet.

Key Points:

• The manosphere adapts and evolves in response to societal changes.
• It recruits individuals, including those as young as ten, exploiting unregulated online spaces.
• The movement encapsulates a range of groups, including incels, pickup artists, men's rights activists, and those advocating for men going their own way.

Guest Introductions

Several guests share their personal journeys, shedding light on how the manosphere attracted and influenced them:

1. Arne - A non-binary individual socialized as a man who joined the manosphere over two decades ago.
2. Alyssa Davis - A third-year PhD student in Sociology at Vanderbilt University and a leading researcher on incels.
3. Anne - A 29-year-old master's student in psychology from Germany who was once part of the manosphere.
4. Isaiah - A queer neurodivergent individual in their early twenties who grew up in a deeply entrenched Christian conservative environment.
5. Paige - A non-binary former high school science teacher in Texas who navigated the challenges of addressing manosphere influences in educational settings.
6. Tom - An educator who shares experiences of interacting with students influenced by the manosphere.

Personal Experiences and Entrapment in the Manosphere

Each guest provides a candid account of their entry into and eventual departure from the manosphere, highlighting common themes of isolation, frustration, and identity struggles.

Arne's Story: Arne discusses how personal bitterness over divorce and perceived injustices in the custodial system drew them into father's rights movements, which later evolved into broader manosphere affiliations. They reflect on the internalization of misogyny and the systemic flaws that perpetuate these ideologies.

"The very, like, jocular, like, virtual back slapping, like, you know, it's okay, buddy. There's this, like, sort of, like, social incentive to exaggerate your anger and your feelings, to get that false camaraderie."
[28:54] Arne

Alyssa Davis's Insights: Alyssa sheds light on the research aspects, emphasizing how extremist free spaces within the manosphere create echo chambers that reinforce toxic beliefs. She illustrates the mental toll these communities take on individuals, leading to self-hatred and suicidal ideation.

"They're becoming more extremist in their beliefs. I would say so. Historically, incels have kind of been there are acts of violence and mass violence that have been committed by them such as the ISL Vista shooting, the Toronto Van attack."
[57:22] Alyssa Davis

Anne's Journey: Anne recounts her transition from struggling with social interactions and neurodivergence to encountering and eventually rejecting the manosphere. Her experience underscores how the movement exploits vulnerabilities and reinforces negative self-perceptions.

"I changed from like what's wrong with me? To like oh no, the reason are actually women. It's not you, it's clearly half of the population."
[26:12] Anne

Isaiah's Perspective: Isaiah discusses growing up in an evangelical Christian household and the lack of support systems, which made them susceptible to manosphere influences. Their narrative highlights the intersectionality of identity and how societal pressures shape perceptions of masculinity.

"I really experienced like the manosphere from two different perspectives. And that was really vicariously through my friends and through my social interactions."
[22:25] Paige

Paige's Teaching Experience: Paige, a former high school teacher, shares the challenges of addressing manosphere-influenced attitudes among students. They emphasize the importance of critical thinking and building empathetic relationships to counteract the spread of toxic ideologies.

"People need to be equipped to be able to look at the way that these are constructed, to tell that this is predatory, be able to be told to see that they're being sold a product, then it's less likely to spread."
[32:18] Tom

The Interplay of Masculinity and Systemic Failures

A recurring theme throughout the episode is how societal constructs of masculinity, exacerbated by systemic issues like capitalism and white supremacy, fuel the manosphere's rise. Alyssa delves into the concept of "hegemonic masculinity"—an idealized form of masculinity encompassing wealth, racial status, and access to women—and how failure to meet these standards drives men towards these online communities.

"How is masculinity constructed in society? How is masculinity displayed in society? What's considered to be the masculine ideal?"
[47:23] Alyssa Davis

Impact on Marginalized Communities

Paige highlights the broader repercussions of the manosphere on various marginalized groups, including women, queer individuals, and people of color. The movement not only perpetuates misogyny but also intersects with other forms of discrimination, creating a toxic environment that stifles progress and fosters prejudice.

"Men have to come up with this self-realization that they're hurting others and that their identity and their idea of masculinity has impacts on others."
[56:00] Paige

Strategies for Countering the Manosphere

The guests collectively advocate for proactive measures to dismantle the manosphere's influence. Emphasizing the importance of building healthier communities, fostering empathy, and encouraging introspection among men, they suggest that creating supportive environments can help individuals extricate themselves from toxic online spaces.

Key Strategies:

• Empathetic Communities: Building supportive social circles that provide positive reinforcement and a sense of belonging.
• Critical Thinking Education: Equipping individuals, especially youth, with the tools to critically evaluate and challenge harmful ideologies.
• Mental Health Support: Promoting therapy and mental health resources to address underlying issues that make individuals susceptible to such movements.
• Intersectional Approach: Recognizing and addressing the interconnectedness of various forms of discrimination to create a more inclusive and equitable society.

Conclusion

Jamie Loftus wraps up the series by reflecting on the insights shared by her guests. She underscores the need for society to address systemic failures and redefine masculinity in a way that is inclusive and empathetic. While individual efforts to leave the manosphere are crucial, she emphasizes that broader societal changes are necessary to prevent the resurgence of such toxic movements.

"The manosphere is a response to expectations under capitalism. There are so many men out there who feel that they are failing to meet an ideal, most often because the system is failing them."
[60:19] Jamie

Jamie expresses frustration towards simplistic solutions that rely solely on positive interactions to dismantle the manosphere. Instead, she calls for a deeper understanding of the systemic issues that fuel these movements and stresses the importance of collective responsibility in fostering healthier communities.

"I think it's on other men. I would rather a man be embarrassed while trying to talk a friend down from the manosphere than ten women get doxxed."
[60:19] Jamie

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Arne [28:54]:
  "There's this, like, sort of, like, social incentive to exaggerate your anger and your feelings, to get that false camaraderie."

• Alyssa Davis [57:22]:
  "They're becoming more extremist in their beliefs. I would say so. Historically, incels have kind of been there are acts of violence and mass violence that have been committed by them such as the ISL Vista shooting, the Toronto Van attack."

• Anne [26:12]:
  "I changed from like what's wrong with me? To like oh no, the reason are actually women. It's not you, it's clearly half of the population."

• Tom [32:18]:
  "People need to be equipped to be able to look at the way that these are constructed, to tell that this is predatory, be able to be told to see that they're being sold a product, then it's less likely to spread."

• Alyssa Davis [47:23]:
  "How is masculinity constructed in society? How is masculinity displayed in society? What's considered to be the masculine ideal?"

• Paige [56:00]:
  "Men have to come up with this self-realization that they're hurting others and that their identity and their idea of masculinity has impacts on others."

• Jamie [60:19]:
  "The manosphere is a response to expectations under capitalism. There are so many men out there who feel that they are failing to meet an ideal, most often because the system is failing them."

Final Thoughts

The episode serves as a powerful conclusion to the manosphere miniseries, offering a nuanced exploration of the factors that contribute to the rise of toxic online male communities. Through personal testimonies and expert insights, Jamie Loftus highlights the urgent need for societal change, mental health support, and the redefinition of masculinity to mitigate the negative impacts of such movements.

Listeners are left with a profound understanding of the complexities surrounding the manosphere and are encouraged to engage in meaningful conversations to foster a more inclusive and empathetic society.

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Produced by: Cool Zone Media and iHeartRadio
Host: Jamie Loftus
Executive Producers: Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans
Supervising Producer & Editor: Ian Johnson
Theme Song: Sad13
Voice Acting: Grant Crater and Pet
Shout Outs: Anderson (dog), Flea and Casper (cats), and Rockbert (rock)

Transcript

[James Loftus]

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[Isaiah]

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[Isaiah]

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[Paige]

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[Isaiah]

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[Jamie]

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[Isaiah]

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[Tom]

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[Jamie]

And more and deals to make your budget bright. Find the perfect shoes for you and yours at a DSW store near you or dsw.com Coal Zone Media hello, 16th minute listeners. Happy holidays. This is Jamie. Do I have your attention? Keep listening. Quick thing right at the top of this show. I am going on tour with my other weekly podcast, the Bechtel Cast. If you are a listener of the show, it's an intersectional feminist podcast that I co host with my friend Caitlin Durante and we're going to be doing a few tour dates in January. So if you live in Los Angeles, San Francisco or Portland, Oregon, we are going to be in your town. And even if you're not, there's going to be live stream tickets available. So if you're a fan of that show or you just want to be weird and parasocial, those are the places to do it. We're going to be in Los Angeles on January 19th at Dynasty Typewriter. That's going to be a variety show with some of our favorite past guests of the show and just a celebration of the show in general. You can get tickets live if you're in the area or live streamed. Then we will be in San Francisco at San Francisco Sketchfest on January 23rd covering Titanic. We did something called the Shrek Tanic Tour last year which is, I know, brilliant, inspired, nothing better than that where we will cover either Titanic or Shrek. There are no live stream tickets for that. So if you're in the San Francisco area, that's the only way to see that show. And finally, we're ending our mini tour in Portland, Oregon, home of Sophie Lichterman. And we will be covering Shrek at the Curious comedy theater on January 26th in Portland and there will be live stream tickets for that available. There may be some special guests. I mean, I don't know. Come and see. So yes, if you've been listening to the Manosphere miniseries, I really, really appreciate it. And if you want to come and hang and chat, Bactel cast shows are always super, super fun. Hope to see you there. Happy holidays. Here's the show.

[Anne]

Every all the time.

[Jamie]

Make me a star.

[Isaiah]

Let's take it too far and give me one moment of fame.

[Alyssa Davis]

16 minutes of fam.

[Jamie]

Welcome back to 16th minute, the podcast where we talk to the Internet's characters of the day to see what their moment was like for them and what it says about us and the Internet. Except not today, one last time, because this is our final installment of our into the Manosphere series, and folks, it's been a journey. We've checked out the origins of the manosphere. Mind you, not a history of misogyny or I would truly never sleep again, but rather the history of these organized male supremacist groups coming to prominence in response to gains of not just feminist movements, but virtually any progressive movement, civil rights movement like seasons one and two of Lost, which are the only ones I've watched so far. It's all connected. We've followed these male supremacist movements onto the Internet where they split into subgroups performing their own version of freeform jazz misogyny, the incels, the pickup artists, the men's rights activists, the men going their own way, and all of the sub variants therein. We followed them to forums, into Radio, and eventually YouTube and podcasts. Podcasts. We've looked at the historical third and fourth wave feminist touchstones they've responded to in the crimes and harassment movements they've turned into news stories amplified by algorithms. The manosphere is absolutely still recruiting, if reports from the last few years are to be believed, to kids as young as 10 years old. The more I learn about it, the more I really do feel like it is an important space to talk about and I think for parents and teachers especially a space to have a basic understanding of to, as my guest FD signifier expanded on last week, to be able to recognize when young people are engaging with it. I'm not suggesting there should be a moral panic. That means that nuking the manosphere will solve the problem. The manosphere is an extension of the problem that systemic failures have reached the point that grifters are able to take advantage of unregulated Internet spaces and a screen addicted population to spread ideas that are far more profitable than any progressive or leftist idea tends to be. The manosphere is well funded, and so even if you don't engage with it directly, it's more likely than not that it's affected you at some point. Whether we're talking inside or outside the manosphere, the overton window of how we talk about these systemic issues and ignore others has been reduced to phrases like the Internet isn't real life. Which is interesting because there's no shortage of young people who have taken their own lives after being bullied online that clearly felt very differently. And it's no mistake that this often dismissed phenomenon is becoming increasingly prevalent in black youth, in girls, and in queer youth. More than one thing has to be true here. The Internet and the real world are very clearly not the same place. But to downplay the tremendous influence one has on the other dooms you to be an eternal boomer. It push away young people and it does not serve the young people in your life. But what I've really hoped to stress through this series isn't just the idea that the manosphere is a space that's boosted and further normalized. Mask off hatred toward not just women, but queer people, trans people, poor people, and anyone who isn't white. It's a symptom of late capitalism. But when it comes down to it, the way that the manosphere affects you, and to what degree it affects you, has everything to do with who you are as an individual. And so to close this series out, I wanted to share some of those perspectives. And thankfully many listeners reached out who have either interacted with or been fully pulled into this space in the past. I've talked to people who have exited the manosphere over a period of three decades. I've talked to people who have studied and been kind of traumatized by it. Relatable. And I talked to a young teacher who's just trying to figure out how to speak to their students about it without being shut out entirely. So for the rest of this episode, I'm going to let their stories take center. And because some names have been changed, let's get to know their voices first. A non binary person socialized as a man who entered the manosphere well over two decades ago.

[Arne]

Tom, I'm 45 and yeah, I don't know, I have four kids. Part of what drew me into the father's rights bullshit was I kind of got pulled into that by my bitterness over my divorce and my anger around what I perceived was that my mistreatment by the custodial and child support systems.

[Jamie]

This is Alyssa, a leading researcher on incels.

[Alyssa Davis]

Hi, my name is Alyssa Davis and I am a third year PhD student in Sociology at Vanderbilt University.

[Jamie]

This is Arne, a German man in his late 20s who entered the manosphere after a year abroad in the US in the early 2010s.

[Anne]

I'm Anne, I am 29 years old. I'm from Germany. I am a master's student in psychology and I definitely was in the manosphere for a while and yeah, I got out of it. Now am I seeing Flea or Casper. I know this might be added up.

[Jamie]

This is Casper, here's Isaiah who's in their early 20s and grew up deeply entrenched in Christian conservatism.

[Paige]

My name's Isaiah and I'm currently a student and I identify as queer neurodivergent among other things. And yeah, I survived the manosphere.

[Jamie]

And finally Paige who is a non binary former high school teacher in Texas.

[Tom]

My name is Paige, I am a former high school science teacher. I started teaching it would have been 2022 at that point. Kind of a remedial physics chemistry class. So I had all nine through 12.

[Jamie]

And when we come back we talk to the survivors of the manosphere.

[James Loftus]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Jamie]

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[Jamie]

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[Anne]

Whatever it is they don't want me to be.

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[Paige]

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[Anne]

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[Paige]

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[Tom]

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[Isaiah]

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[Jamie]

Welcome back to 16th minute. Has anyone else seen this incredible six hour long movie I've been hearing about called Santa University? Let me know. I hear it's amazing and that the woman who wrote it is really beautiful. Alright, let's get into it. These interviews have been edited for time and clarity and here are the expats of the manosphere about when did you.

[Alyssa Davis]

Leave these spaces for good?

[Arne]

Let's say around 2008. Okay, 2009. Ish. I was in my 20s and you know, I wasn't really, you know, aware of the shifting window of politics going further to the right. I was a rock against Bush while also like accepting this like cesspool of monsters. So it was very much based around how father's rights was about like fathers don't have access to as robust child support needs and they don't often qualify for public assistance stuff. And family court judges were biased against fathers and that sort of rhetoric. The problem that, as I see, you know, as I eventually saw it, was that problem was coming from inside the house. Um, you know, it, it, it wasn't that, you know, women were poisoning the system against us. It was that the system is fucked up because of misogyny.

[Alyssa Davis]

As you said. It's been around for like a while. So I guess I'm more in like the modern era of incels post Reddit bans. I actually started my research for my master's thesis. I was originally going to use a subreddit that was called, I think it was Brain Cells. And Incels had gotten Banned in 2017, this was 2021. Brain cells was still around. But right as I was about to start collecting data for my thesis, Brain Cells got banned. And so I was like, oh, no.

[Tom]

What am I gonna do?

[Alyssa Davis]

And so then I found in particular R/incel exit, which mainly focuses on men who have, I guess, identified themselves as incels in the past, expressing a desire to leave the group. Which then led me to kind of these other spaces that since incels have gotten pushed out of, I think, the sites that they originally sprung up on, which is Reddit 4chan, now they're going into different areas of the Internet and creating their own websites and forums that function very similarly to Reddit. In one of the papers that I published, along with my co author, Heather Ketri, there's kind of this idea of free spaces that has been studied among scholars who look at extremist groups. And these free spaces function as places where individuals who are members of extremist groups can move into and are isolated from the mainstream, while also having, I guess, the opportunity to continue to foster these ideologies. So in that respect, they're really hard to get out of because you're insulated entirely and the only people you talk to are people who I think, agree and support those ideological functions. The danger of having such an insulated community is that it does become an echo chamber and it does become, I like what you said, like a death cult, essentially, where they're simultaneously each other's only, like, support system. But then also that support system is so negative and so harmful.

[Anne]

I think it is decent to mention here. I was undiagnosed ADHD and autism as a child. I definitely had negative experiences, as in bullying. When I got to, like, let's say, middle school, Germany, the system is a little different, but I still had some friends that I brought over from like elementary school when we went to the same class. But I definitely was no longer as outgoing as fun. And I also struggled with just social interactions. If I am thinking back on it, I am still cringing hard on the things that I did. Yeah. So Internet was very germ focused. Now I tend to say that like the Internet is 95% in English. I don't know on the actual percentage, but vibes wise, that sounds about right. Yeah. Before getting into the manosphere, before really discovering the Internet came through my exchange year that I did, which would be junior year in the US to Florida actually. I remember that I was told about Reddit, but I was back then still 9gag kid for like Internet.

[Jamie]

Oh yeah, YouTube.

[Anne]

Like Philip DeFranco. I think I discovered what are other people. Because I don't watch them anymore. They're kind of slipping my mind. PewDiePie was back then 2011, 2012.

[Jamie]

That sort of developed when you were in the US for a year.

[Anne]

Absolutely. Exactly. And so I, I kept that. And that's why I also kept my English because I stayed connected and like kept developing my English online. Even though I didn't, I was more of a lurker. I still got content because there's way more people who speak English and way more content in English. You will also the top notch things that the cream of the crop will still outrank what you would find in Germany.

[Tom]

I am a creature of the Internet, unfortunately. And I had seen all of the TikToks YouTube video essays. Everybody look at this nonsense. This is bad. Before I was teaching, I was a rock climbing coach and I had kids as young as fourth or fifth grade trying to tell me about Andrew Tate and that that was disturbing.

[Jamie]

So I think that there is a level of like, if you didn't grow up adjacent to understanding what these spaces are, it can kind of go over.

[Tom]

Your head and like it was really interesting honestly being in that position because I. I don't know that I was the youngest teacher at my school, but like damn near it. Some of my kids understood that, you know, I'm not that much older than them. A lot of them did not. I felt like I was the only person that saw that the emperor had no clothes.

[Paige]

So I was like born and raised in evangelical Christian household. It was like not a lot of exposure. And I remember kind of having this thing called the Internet or I think YouTube in early 2010 and just being not able to have any access to Internet and having very weird media access rules within my family. But then having my friends especially going to like public school in Vancouver, it was interesting to see some of those, like, I want to say like cooler kids, but the kids who have access to the Internet.

[Alyssa Davis]

You said you, you sort of.

[Jamie]

The algorithm was guiding you more towards the red pill pipeline.

[Paige]

Yeah, some of that like red pill, black pill type content. I do want to preface that I was never really deep in it. But what I will say is when you are surrounded by evangelical Christians and you're surrounded by the space, that's very purity culture. And then it's reinforced with what content is being produced online and what your friends are watching and what they're suggesting and how that media is affecting it. I really experienced like the manosphere from two different perspectives. And that was really vicariously through my, my friends and through my social interactions.

[Tom]

The one that I remember, this kid that was in one of the remedial classes that I taught and he was definitely a bit higher achieving than at least the other students in that class, period. And I usually left him alone to his devices because he would turn his work in. And I was like, ah, whatever, you are the least of my worries. But at one point I like started looking at his work and I could tell that he was just phoning it in whenever I was talking to him about it. And I was like, man, you just gotta put in like a little more effort. I know you are better than this. His argument was that he didn't really care to put a whole lot of effort in as long as he could like play football like he wanted to and whatever, because he was going to graduate and then make a bunch of money with this thing that like Andrew Tate had been talking about bitcoin and stuff. It was like that kind of thinking where it's like, I don't have to do the same things that everyone else here does and act the same because I have this cheat code that, you know, this man on the Internet gave me.

[Anne]

I remembered when I was in Florida, there was a moment where even after I've thought that I redeveloped myself, that I'm now extroverted. Why are girls not interested in me? And so I also were able to ask these questions. Now in English, I mentioned red. I found R Seduction, for example. And I think I discovered the Simple Pickup YouTube channel who are like, oh, you know, you just need to go out there and like talk to people and fake it till you make it and like have a, a 30 day challenge in which you just be extreme and like have no more, no shame. And like that Just break that barrier that you're afraid of.

[Dramos]

Right?

[Anne]

And I was unable to do so. Like I was watching those videos, I'm like, yeah, that sounds great. I know I should do this for a month. And I never took the train into hamper 2. The seeds were planted for why don't girls like me? What is wrong with me? Something must be wrong with me. And I think that's, that's interesting because later on when I got closer into the manosphere, I changed from like what's wrong with me? To like oh no, the reason are actually women. It's not you, it's clearly half of the population. Absolutely, that, that must be it.

[Alyssa Davis]

If you're moving into a space that continues to kind of foster this echo chamber ideology extremism becomes more and more rampant or apparent. So my more recent research where I've actually gone on some of the more extreme incel sites, I was seeing things that were horrific for me to even view, like acts of violence that were being endorsed or committed or videos or it being shared as well as advocating for the self harm of the incels themselves. So suicidal ideation, a lot of self hatred and that kind of being endorsed and supported by members of the community. This overwhelming ideology of like you cannot leave this group because this is who you are biologically.

[Anne]

But, but really what got me into it was I started my university, struggled a little bit to make friends. Also it's despite being neurodivergent, if you get a degree in math, you will meet more neurodivergent people. While nowadays I vibe a lot with people who are neurodivergent, I struggled to make friends there. So I went to like an orientation and then there was a woman a few years my senior who was interested because I sat there with a chessboard and not talking to people. And so she decided to sit down, we started playing chess, like kept talking throughout that evening and kept contact for another week. It's a truism or a trope that men don't pick up on hints from women. Yeah, 100% in my case. We started dating, but also she was very much interested in the red pill. She even sent me like I think in my first week a PDF on a book that would translate to the praise of sexism. You know how there is benevolent sexism and hostile sexism. I forgot who the researchers are who developed that idea. But there's those two types and it's much more in praise of like benevolent sexism and like oh no, women definitely won the trad wife lifestyle Having my first kiss at 19. If that is what my girlfriend believes, then obviously that must be true. That must be the reason. Also, it explains so much. If I already struggled for, like, why don't like me? Oh, the answer is hypergamy. I just didn't present myself well. Now, does that already go into the face of how she approached me when I was a loner on a chessboard? Absolutely. Did I think about that? Nope.

[Jamie]

Do we know how she got there?

[Anne]

Hard were her friends who probably discovered it. And she was much more tomboyish, so she had much more male friends and were like, oh, I'm. I'm different to other girls. I'm. I'm not like other girls. Almost to her, right. Which was, like, early 2010, I think, was much more of a common, you know, to bring out the psych student. We all fall for confirmation bias. We are. If you're invested and you're doing that in a social thing, of course you're gonna see it that way to a certain extent. She already had a previous social circle that was interested in these things, and so I think that's probably how she got into it.

[Jamie]

I'm also curious how these spaces relate to masculinity and you navigating your own gender. Does that intersect at all?

[Arne]

I have always been queer. You know, I've known I was bisexual since I was in college. My queerness of gender didn't come about until the pandemic. You know, obviously, I'm very masculine. Presenting in retrospect, and you mentioning that, you know, it does. It was probably pretty performative. There's a lot of aggression. Performative rage, if that makes sense. I would feel this anger, right, about perceived slights against me in these, you know, online spaces. You know, I would vent about this, but I would almost play it up to, like, get sympathy from these other angry men. The very, like, jocular, like, virtual back slapping, like, you know, it's okay, buddy. There's this, like, sort of, like, social incentive to exaggerate your anger and your feelings, to get that false camaraderie. You know, men are socialized to be so lone wolfy and solitary, but, like, that's not how people are. We need community, and we need people, and we need to have a place where we can feel things. And when the only feeling that's allowed is that rage that, you know, we kind of go all in, and it ends up in this horrific display of anger and rage and violence.

[Jamie]

I'm curious at, like, how you would approach talking to students who had clearly Taken this in.

[Tom]

That was really hard being a queer teacher in Texas, right? And I mean, I wasn't even out. I didn't use, like, my proper pronouns or anything, but, like, I. If you interact with me for more than a few minutes, like, it's written on my face. I definitely had quite a few kids that I don't know for sure if they, like, you know, specifically fell within that community space of the manosphere and everything, but they had a lot of the same attitudes. The way they would argue and stuff. They would definitely push the queer issue if the opportunity came up. I had a really big conversation with a couple of my classes about referring to women and girls as females. I don't know if it's just like being in the part of the south that I'm in that it's like, super, super common. It feels like a bit more than at least whenever I was in school. And it really bothers me. It feels a little dehumanizing. Obviously, I would always just. Just provide a little bit of pushback if I were to come down, like, super duper hard on them and be like, hey, you can't do this in my classroom. Then they have the bad guy, you know, coming down on them and oppressing them, and that can reinforce. I almost phrased it as like, a. The same, like, cheat code thing. Like, hey, this is going to take you far in life. Don't do that. Sometimes it works. It would be like, why? And then other girls in my class would chime in and be like, well, it feels like a nature documentary thing. It's. It feels like, you know, you're not actually acknowledging us as people. Like, you're acknowledging us as specimens. I feel like providing that opportunity for them to hear how that is affecting the population that ostensibly, you know, most of these boys are interested in. You know, sometimes it works. Sometimes they were just like, nah, y'all don't know what you're talking about. You're just sensitive. But the conversation's worth it for the couple of kids that are gonna get it.

[Jamie]

Going deeper into these spaces. Was neurodivergence something that was discussed openly?

[Anne]

I don't think so. Not at all. I think it was. I mean, I will also say that I was much more of a lurker as well. So, like, from there, I went then to, like, r the red pill and went to top of all and discovered that most pop posts are from 2016, 2017, which is when I was online. So interestingly enough, I was there when it. It, to a certain extent, I guess peaked now. That's probably because nowadays it's quarantined, so it's not going to be shown to the front page anymore. It is more restricted. And I bet that that means there's less draw to it. But there used to be, at least in the red pill space, three main people, and they were the three Rs. And that is Rolo, that is Royce, and I think. I think it's Rashby is how he was written. I'd have to look that up again. And they, they were very prolific and people were reading aspects of them. Now. Roller Tomasi had books that came out and I remember buying them and listening to them through Audible. That was the rational mail. And I know there's a trilogy. I even another cringy moment is I gifted my uncle that book, like right around that time as well. That one's also talking about like, you should spin plates. You should not be emotionally invested in women. You. So the idea is like spinning plates, you should always have at least two so you don't get too much invested game. And social suaveness is your wealth, of course, and your physical looks as well. So there it very easily came. Like, I was familiar with incel communities and had I not had a girlfriend, I think I would have gotten much closer to incel.

[Jamie]

You also mentioned that you got into Jordan Peterson. Could you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah. What sparked about him for you?

[Anne]

I think that one was the algorithm with like YouTube. And yeah, I. I will mention that I broke up with my girlfriend early 2016. I think at that point I no longer have like the. The social support, for lack of a better term, to like reinforce my beliefs. But I definitely am kind of left there. And, And I'll mention this, I was raised by a single mother. I didn't really have a. I met my father for the first time when I was 11, and he's actually a really chill dude, but we're bros. Like, he's not a father figure per se. When I was trying to figure out what is a man. The manosphere obviously is also another point where that they give you answers. They're like, you know, oh, all these poor young guys who are raised by a mother and so they don't know how to treat woman right now it's me they're talking about it. That's what's wrong.

[Paige]

Yeah, I am like, I am your prototypical saved unsaved person. You know, it was definitely like there was no space where I felt like I could perform like Isaiah perform myself. It was always you go to church, you have to perform a certain way, you go to school, you ought to perform a certain way around that. Yeah, that was just is a really tough space to kind of look for. And I will say like the hardest part about the manosphere and the masculinity that the manosphere sells you. It's not necessarily the vision as much as it is a lack of imagination. I think that lack of imagination of who you could be and who you might be able to versus what you should be is what robs a lot of people. And when I'm looking back on how the manosphere and how this vision, this corporatized product of what masculinity should be, ultimately I think about all the lost time of me trying to be something that wasn't rewarding and that wasn't helping me and wasn't helping others.

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[Alyssa Davis]

The danger of it is they're becoming more extremist in their beliefs. I would say so. Historically, incels have kind of been there are acts of violence and mass violence that have been committed by them such as the ISL Vista shooting, the Toronto Van attack. More and more instances of these mass acts of violence are popping up, but holistically the the broader community of incels are nonviolent and instead they're very self hating, self deprecating. I actually was talking to this co author of mine the other day and she mentioned I can't remember the name of the book but a book that she was reading and in this book there was a case of an incel and I guess like his friend where they had met on one of these online spaces and they both had, I guess, participated in sexual activity with a person. And after this instance occurred, one of the guys broke down, was like, I don't know who I am anymore. My life is over. My friends are gone. Like, I can't say I'm an incel anymore. I'm like actually having a complete breakdown. And the other man and the woman that they engaged in this activity with, they were comforting him and saying, like, no, no, we don't have to tell anyone. You don't have to tell anyone. Like, like, we can keep this a secret. It's okay. And so there's this huge community element of it and then also identity component that I think really keeps them like wrapped in this space. Ultimately, like profound loneliness and mental health issues.

[Tom]

This school that I was at was very, very low income and I was, you know, teaching remedial students. And that's just different. I mean, it felt like there was a lot more insecurity, at least like from those K that were really engaging in this, you know, shitty rhetoric. The kids that kind of, I guess, had the most to prove and didn't have a whole lot to fall back on. These weren't my kids that were my super high achieving by the most part. They were my kids that were struggling and maybe didn't get a whole lot of help at home and didn't have a whole lot of guidance. All of these students that I've actually been thinking of, the ones that I really tried to have the most conversations with and check in with the most because I didn't want to sit here and just argue with them. I wanted to be constructive and to not feel like I was just sitting here criticizing, criticizing, like, that's not my job here as a teacher.

[Anne]

You know, I got out of my previous social situation and I think that's one of the things that is really important, that the people that you're around, if you are able to change your environment, you as a person might change drastically. And that's really, really what happened to me during my exchange year during high school. I. I'm gaining a community again. I'm gaining a social support. And what has drawn me into the rectal was being with my girlfriend and then being online, not really talking with other people, potentially getting rejected. For people who are like, I don't know about that, that seems a little iffy. And instead of being like, yeah, maybe you're right, I'm like, no, no, this is expl. You know, my worldview. Things are Being explained to me so nicely. So clearly you're wrong. The algorithm who's feeding me things, but I. Maybe even through proximity, they're realizing, oh, you're now at university. You're on a university Internet. Maybe Contrapoint is someone who you would find funny because you're coming from this edgy humor that we know. This person seems to resonate with people like you. One aspect that also de radicalized me is I am very lucky for my socioeconomic status. I was able to fail and get back up again, but, like, had enough financial security that. But that is not a major factor of radicalization. That the radicalization came from why don't girls love me? Rather than why is my life complete shit in every regard? You know, why am I being failed by the system? I say show me less on YouTube and it keeps showing me the same amount. It's ignoring my desires. And I'm getting more and more frustrated with that to the point where I then decide, okay, so clearly my account is tainted. That is also part of where I then started to move out of that sphere. I'm making friends. I have my social circle that I'm building where I have people that I look up to. I meet my now wife at university where we're starting to talk about it, and she points out to me how it's quoting a study. And the study itself, if you look into it, is the exact opposite. She's. She's way smarter than me, clever and intelligent, and I love her so much, of course, but also, like, she is taking the effort and time. I got lucky that I had friends with my doctoral student with my now wife who took the time to like, hey, I think this isn't really right.

[Tom]

My girls were angry. Like, there were like a couple of instances that like, some dudes in the corner would be talking really, really poorly about, I don't know, one of their friends that posted whatever on Instagram. Oh, and no, she looked so slutty. Whatever. This one instances that I'm thinking about, this girl got really, really upset. Cause that was one of her friends. And she was like, you cannot talk about us this way. Like, this just is not okay. And frankly got pretty aggressive about it. And it became a behavioral incident. But I normally in something like that, I would have referred off. It would have been disciplinary action and whatever. But I didn't want to do that because she was right. Which kind of ended up being the conversation I had with her. And I mean, I didn't have another issue with her about it. Like, she would Say what she needed to say and then be done. And I hope that that rubbed off on the rest of the girls in that class. But I also had, at one point in time, another queer stud that was in one of my classes that did have a couple of kids that had specifically talked about Andrew Tate at a couple of points and interrupted my class to do so. They ended up actually transferring out of my class. They. They felt like they were being kind of targeted in a lot of the speech about it and, you know, didn't feel comfortable there, which I don't blame them. And it made me really, really sad. It's hard for me to say, you know, how that affected a lot of my other queer students, because being in Texas and, you know, in the public education system as a teacher, I. I could have lost my job. I could have.

[Alyssa Davis]

There.

[Tom]

There was a whole lot of shit associated in my particular district with being out at the time. But for students, it really wasn't that safe either. I mean, a lot of the teachers, you know, were very. We were all very protective over our queer students. But it was more worry about parents, honestly. I mean, that's just what it made it hard in general. They're not going to say anything about it because they don't want a target on their backs. And I can't really necessarily ask them about it because then I'm overstepping and now there's targets on both of our backs.

[Alyssa Davis]

Increasingly, we're finding out that there is a hugely intersectional component to this where there's older men in it, there's men of all different races. I mean, they have horrible names for men of different races, and they structure them on their own hierarchy. My research kind of focuses on is like, how is masculinity constructed in society? How is masculinity displayed in society? What's considered to be the masculine ideal? Because these men feel as though they're not meeting that, whatever that is. And it's been established that this is like the possession of what's called hegemonic masculinity, where it's a particular type of masculinity that includes, like, wealth, that includes racial components, that includes access to women, and all of these different things that make up what is considered to be the ideal man. These men feel as though they're not fitting. So I think a lot of it is wrapped up in intersectional identities. And then also just how our society constructs understandings of ideal masculine performance, what it means to be a man, having.

[Jamie]

Been in that space and now reflecting on it. What do you make of how these spaces are being presented to us and what they mean right now?

[Arne]

I think there is an unfortunate amount of like apology for them. You know, I feel like too often people will try to couch it in this. Like, well, dudes need a space to be dudes and dudes will be dudes and the society bends over backwards even more or you know, an empowered group and you know, they see queer people getting fraction of a fraction more power and then they freak out and everything has to go 12 steps backwards. Like it is possible to get out of that. It's cheesy to say, but you know, there's hope as long as people are willing to actually communicate. Which is, yeah, I think biggest challenge there is to, to actually be introspective and be thoughtful and you know, actually talk about shit.

[Paige]

I think we often frame men as the, or men identifying individuals as the victims of manosphere content and masculinity. But it completely underplays the fact that like at the end of the day the manosphere is informing people who are performing masculinity and that's impacting women, women, that's impacting people who are queer. And in some ways I've heard people talk about like the manosphere and they almost placate the massive amounts of impact that's had on women. Right? Like first dating partners or. And you're having this, you're having this like boyfriend or partner who is trying to perform what the manosphere is telling them dating or being a boyfriend should be like. And it's disastrous. But I can't imagine how harmful that might be or how kind of difficult it must be to not only have a partner who is subscribing to this idea of masculinity, but also perform what is expected of them from like a femininity standpoint of the manosphere. Right. One of my own, like personal, I guess, like talking about like my queer identity a little bit more, taking on more of like a non binary identity has been like really a reaction to how little I want to associate with like masculinity at this point. I'm actively sad by like the impact I might have had or still have by my actions just unknowingly. Right. Like unlearning masculinity is so difficult, but I think it's, it's so necessary. I think men's rights, like the whole men's rights movement is like a way of, of placating men's responsibility to realize that they, their actions have massive consequences on Other people.

[Tom]

I honestly think that the bigger thing that scares me is the thought patterns behind it and the way that information is presented. I think that that is also a lot more contagious. My kid that I had talking about their get rich quick scheme they got from Andrew Tate and friends, that line of thought is going to be able to spread to a lot more kids, and that way of thinking is going to spread to a lot more kids than say, you know, women should do X, Y, Z. That, I think, is like, entirely my job as a teacher, especially a science teacher, is critical thinking and being able to point out bullshit arguments and when something is not credible. I think if it's. If kids and people are equipped to be able to look at the way that these are constructive, to tell that this is predatory, be able to be told to see that they're being sold a product, then it's less likely to spread. People aren't going to fall for it.

[Jamie]

Is this an important space to be aware of? How is it effective to talk about it?

[Tom]

I mean, I definitely do think that it is something that should be talked about a lot more. Like, I. The big thing that is making its rounds in professional development stuff is, you know, how do we deal with AI and all of that? And I. I'm not saying that's not important, but this doesn't affect, you know, how our kids are writing their essays and all of that, but it affects how they operate as people. And I really, really wish that it was a bigger conversation. I really think the biggest thing is just talking to your kids and really investing in, like, okay, this kid needs some guidance, but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna grab their hand and yank them into what they need to think. It's building the relationship and being the role model that probably inspired you to teach. Right? Kids need that, especially if they are at risk like this, you know.

[Anne]

Now the shaming that exists is something that people struggle with. But I do hope that they find better, healthier resources, like, for example, mental, like Roundtable, where you're working towards something proactive, something positive, rather than trying to find an explanation that feels good, but that leaves you still disconnected and frustrated and somebody else. I think if you're getting frustrated, somebody else, that is very profitable for algorithms. And that is something that I'm very. I think is scary for the newer generation. It really is not something that the. The loneliness will be talked about, but the reasons for that and this idea of, like, something is wrong with you. Here are ways to find that out. Like Going to a therapist is something that is. If you feel lonely, there is no shame in trying to tell that to someone and trying to find a solution for that. I think that's extremely important.

[Alyssa Davis]

I've been asked before if, while I'm researching, if I feel empathy towards this group. And at times, yes, and at times, no. At times I feel, like, profoundly disgusted and angry. And also there've been moments where I've had to shut my laptop cop, go in my room and like, cry for a minute because I. I've seen things that are so horrific. When I hear something like the male loneliness epidemic, I'm like, whoa. Like, why is that our responsibility to, like, figure out? And I think that men have been socialized in a way to not value, to repress their emotions. I guess I would say therapy and understanding that perhaps you have a mental illness can be constructed as weak or not believed by certain people. And so that's like. Like a social construction that people who've been socialized as men have to battle, I think, to a degree, which then I think does breed this. But then also there is a sociological theory that's called, like, the concept of aggrieved entitlement, which is this idea that we've socialized men in society in a way to believe that they're owed certain things for just being men. Access to women's bodies is one of that. And so then when they don't receive that, that sometimes these groups pop up and they're angry about it. I think it's like the steps of harm reduction and the steps of creating community, it's like, almost there. But then they, like, blame it on women at some point. And you're like, wait, you were so close. What's going on?

[Paige]

I think it's really, men have to come up with this self realization that they're hurting others and that their identity and their idea of masculinity has impacts on others. It has been marginalized communities. It's ha. It's been the mothers, it's been the sisters, it's been the partners who have had to do the legwork, sitting their spouse, their partner, their brother down and saying, hey, these attitudes are not there. I think it's really on men to realize that. And I think we have to keep the responsibility on men. The moral panic that's going on right now about the manosphere almost stops conversation on what are people getting? And like, really how systemic manosphere content is? Because I think people, like, it's so hard to generalize, like, what are we Talking Andrew Tate, Are we talking about Joe Rogan? If we label people as manosphere content and dismissive of their, like, potential audiences and their potential communities, I think that could really alienate people. And I think it's the alienation that is really going to be causing people to act with prejudice and act with stereotypes. I think it's trying not to put people in a situation where they feel like the victim, but more so understanding their actions from potentially victimizing others.

[Jamie]

Thank you so much to everyone I spoke with in the process of reporting on the manosphere. I am so, so, so grateful, and not just to the folks I talked to today, but to everyone I've spoken to for this show. Obviously this wasn't a quantitative study, but I think it's telling that the first three people who reached out to me when I put a call out who had been in the manosphere were either closeted queer folks or neurodivergent and lacked a support system that understood them while they were being pulled into these spaces. And of course, I'm not saying that everyone in the manosphere is either queer or neurodivergent. That's obviously far from the truth. But. But to me, this demonstrates how the manosphere preys on those who do not meet the stereotypical masculine idea and encourage them to turn on others even more disenfranchised than themselves instead of just rejecting that image of masculinity. So my conclusion with this series, honestly, I don't love it. Because what's obvious from everyone I've spoken to is that the clearest solution is a healthier community. Tom and Arna both detailed how finding more empathetic and purposeful groups of friends made them feel better and more purposeful themselves, making it somewhat easier to get out of the manosphere altogether. And of course the ability to do that will always intersect with class. And Isaiah was able to keep their distance from the manosphere because of queer anti capitalist role models that they found on YouTube. And that's wonderful, but there is still this kick in the back of my mind, the kick that tells me that the centrist men behind laptops are still going to turn around and say the manosphere will go away if women and non binary folks can just be nice to men who are still in these spaces. Paige experienced that as a teacher, Alyssa experienced that as a research researcher. And still there is this pattern if you keep track of places like R incel exit, something that Laura Bates mentions in Men who Hate Women, that one of the more common experiences that extracts young men from this space is just a woman being nice to them. Here's a little clip I wanted to save for the end from Alyssa.

[Alyssa Davis]

There is one post that sticks with me where it was literally titled let women prove you wrong. And it was this whole story about how this person had had a really positive interaction with a woman and was like, women are human. And like, that's amazing. And like, you really should talk to women and let them prove you wrong. They're not evil people. I think, like, interesting from multiple levels. One, because I think it's, I guess, profoundly sad that he had been socialized to believe that women were so evil that it was surprising he had a positive interaction. Or perhaps he'd never had a positive interaction with a woman and that was truly his first one.

[Jamie]

I mean, come on. And if you are someone who has that patience and that willingness, then that's incredible. I'm not discouraging it at all. And there have been times where I've had that patience myself. And I also know plenty of wonderful people who are way better at it than I am. But it's the expectation that this will happen in order to dismantle this space that I still find really frustrating. I want to echo what Isaiah said. It's on other men. I would rather a man be embarrassed while trying to talk a friend down from the manosphere than ten women get doxxed. We've talked a lot about how there is a gradient for how misogynist these spaces can get. But there's also a gradient of consequences for its targets, ranging from a fundamental derse of respect or our personhood to being a literally lethal space. And this isn't a consequence of the manosphere specifically, it's just what the manosphere is upholding. I'll remind you that domestic violence against women has the statistics to support one of the leading causes of domestic terrorism. But no one ever says that because domestic violence against women is so normal. The media that covers these spaces will always prioritize the perpetrators and rarely interrogate the cause. It's a digital manifestation of misogyny that skews into every marginalized community therein. Misogynoir, transphobia, you name it. And these are equally under discussed and can be even more lethal. To conclude the manosphere is a response to expectations under capitalism. You hate to hear it, but it's simply true. There are so many men out there who feel that they are failing to meet an ideal, most often because the system is failing them. We heard today from people who were not meeting the cishetero successful male ideal because they were queer or because they were neurotransmitters divergent. But there's so many sources of this feeling of not measuring up because of how white supremacy and capitalism makes everyone feel. To be anything but white isn't measuring up. To be anything but rich isn't measuring up. And we're living in an increasingly diverse society where we're being pummeled with wealth inequality. So you would either have to be tremendously lucky to measure up to these standards, or more often just become a fucking grifter yourself. The manosphere doesn't really interrogate any system at all, instead encouraging men to push their rightful anger at targets who have always been considered fair game women. Or to be more specific, anyone who is not a CIS man. Doing so will continue to thwart progress. It will accomplish accomplish nothing in changing these men's feelings of insecurity and failure. And it will mean that there's a generation of girls and non binary kids that will internalize this space regardless of whether they take action for or against it. So sorry I had to tell you all that. And that's it for this miniseries. Thank you so much to everyone who has been listening. This was a very challenging series to put together with a show that is on a weekly schedule, so I really hope you've gotten something out of it. And if you did, please subscribe to the show Engagement Talk Like Comment, subscribe, tell your friends or I haven't slept in three weeks for no reason. You can also join our Reddit board at R16th minute. It is the rare wholesome Reddit board. You can follow me on Instagram, amychristsuperstar or bluesky just under my name and you can come back next week week for our final episode of the year to hear who I have declared the Internet's main character of the year. My answer is not surprising. It is Hoktua. Bye. 16th minute is a production of Cool Zone Media and iHeartRadio. It is written, hosted and produced by me, James Loftus. Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The Amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our theme song is by Sad13. Voice acting is from Grant Crater and Pet Shout Outs to our dog producer Anderson, my cats Flea and Casper and my pet Rockbert who will outlive us all. Byee.

[James Loftus]

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[Jamie]

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[Isaiah]

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[Dramos]

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[Isaiah]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Paige]

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[Jamie]

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[Isaiah]

You know, my parents didn't know, but now this is the time where I.

[Paige]

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[Isaiah]

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[Paige]

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[Isaiah]

At this point, like a good neighbor.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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