Loading summary
Transcript165 lines
- [00:00]
Jamie Lockless
Thursday on abc. Get ready to move that bus. The beloved series Extreme Makeover Home Edition is making a triumphant return to kick off the new year. Join the Makeover mavens Joanna Teplin and Clee Shearer as they hit the road on a mission to transform lives of deserving families. They have just four days to rally communities, demolish old homes and rebuild notches houses but lives. Extreme Makeover Home Edition premieres Thursday at 8.7Central on ABC and will be available to stream next day on Hulu.
- [00:35]
Dave
Looking for excitement? Chumba Casino is here. Play anytime. Play anywhere. Play on the train. Play at the store. Play at home. Play when you're bored. Play today for your chance to win and get daily bonuses when you log in. So what are you waiting for? Don't delay. Chumba Casino is free to play. Experience social gameplay like never before. Go to Chumba Casino right now to play hundreds of games, including online slots, bingo, Slingo and more. Live the chumba life@chumbacasino.com VGW Proof no purchase necessary Void we're prohibited by law.
- [01:03]
Tanya Marsh
Seek terms and conditions the following ad is sponsored by Pets Best Insurance Services. Your pet is your bestie, your therapist your preferred match. It's easy to love them, even when they sneak your snacks. It's easy to protect them, too, with pet insurance coverage from Pets Best because it's all fun and games until they chew on something they shouldn't. With perfect timing, Pets Best helps protect your furry friend and your budget from this imperfect world. Get up to 90% on eligible vet bills for less than a dollar a day. Find your Perfect match@petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for all terms, visit petsbest.com policy.
- [01:49]
Jamie Lockless
Holiday.
- [01:49]
Tanya Marsh
Magic is in the air, and DSW's got all the shoes to make your season extra merry.
- [01:54]
Jamie Lockless
Believe you've got parties to attend and lists to check twice, so DSW is taking care of the details like gifts to make their eyes all aglow styles that bring joy to your world.
- [02:06]
Tanya Marsh
Brands everyone wants like Ugg, Nike, Birkenstock.
- [02:09]
Jamie Lockless
And more and deals to make your budget bright. Find the perfect shoes for you and yours at a DSW store near you.
- [02:16]
Shanna Hudson Stowe
Or dsw.com have you ever considered becoming a surrogate at my Donor Connection? You can help a family bring their baby home while earning $50,000 or more. Use your compensation to pay off debt, save for a home or achieve your dreams. We're looking for women who loved being pregnant and want to help others experience parenthood with unmatched support Every step of the way, your journey will be life changing. Take the first step today. Visit mydonorconnection.com surrogate to complete our quick questionnaire and see if you qualify. That's mydonorconnection.com surrogate cool zone media hey.
- [02:52]
Jamie Lockless
Everybody, Jamie here reminding you that if you enjoy this show, please please subscribe to it, Leave a couple of stars, review whatever you want. It all helps. And if you have episode requests for 16th minute, check out our Reddit board at r 16th minute. Enjoy the episode. Welcome back to 16th Minute, the podcast where we talk to the Internet's characters of the day, see how their moment affected them and what it says about the Internet and us. And today, Halloween itself, we're revisiting the saga of the Tumblr Bone Witch. If you haven't listened to part one of this series, you will be very confused because this is a rich story, one with Internet drama, police state intrigue, and a witch who doesn't understand why grave robbing may in fact be illegal. Where they are robbing a grave aka Boneghazi 2015. And as you now know, it is a wild story, one that has quite a bit to say about how laws around human remains don't always really square with the bone crimes of today. To learn more about the history of these laws and why Ender Darling was destined to be uniquely fucked by the law, I spoke to Professor Tanya Marsh.
- [05:06]
JV Hampton Van Sant
I'm Tanya Marsh. I'm the Senior Associate Dean for Academic affairs and a Professor of law at Wake Forest University School of Law. My scholarship and my teaching centers around the status, treatment, and disposition of human remains.
- [05:20]
Jamie Lockless
How did you first get involved or drawn to this area of law?
- [05:25]
JV Hampton Van Sant
So I was a commercial real estate lawyer for 10 years before I started teaching full time and I thought I knew a lot about real estate and property law and then I started reading some cases. So I was looking around for something to write about and started reading cemetery law cases. And I realized that here was I mean, cemeteries are just a land use, right? It's just property. It's just real estate. But there's this super specific set of rules and laws that surround cemeteries that I had no idea about. And then I realized nobody really was working in this space except for people who are like in the industry, but nobody in academia was like looking into these laws. And in fact, the last like book describing what the laws were was published in 1950. It is, as you say super necessary. Because, you know, spoiler alert, everybody's gonna die. Right. And our bodies have to go somewhere, and everybody who died previously, their bodies are somewhere. And so we need to deal with that, and you need to have legal structures that deal with that. So it's been a interesting area to study.
- [06:31]
Jamie Lockless
I kept, like, trying to characterize it to people as like, an area of law that you don't know is the most important thing in the world until it affects you.
- [06:38]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Absolutely.
- [06:39]
Jamie Lockless
As you're going into this field, for the layman, what do you wish the average person knew more about your field of study?
- [06:50]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Wow. Well, let me turn your question around a little bit here. Here's the big problem with this area. The big problem with this area is in the American culture, we don't like to talk about death. And so, as you say, it's like a really important area of law and that you ignore until you need it. The fundamental, like, reoccurring problem is nobody engages with what are my options, what does the law forbid me from doing, what does the law permit me from doing? Until it personally affects us. And at the point it personally affects us, we're at sort of a heightened state of grief and stress anyway. And then once we get past those decisions which are being made at a time of stress, we don't want to think about it anymore. Right. We want to put it off the table. And so as a result, what we've got is a legal system that was developed in an ad hoc way over the years when there were crises that caused us to either have a court case to deal with a problem, or the legislature was getting a lot of public pressure to deal with a particular problem. So we have this, like, super scattershot approach. And what's frustrating to me is we have really predictable problems that come up over and over and over again. But the law hasn't, like, thought about any of this in a systemic way. Right. So as a culture, we need to get past this whole death phobic thing, because we really do need to all get on the same page about what are our values and does the law protect and express those values? For the most part, I think most people in the United States are on the same page about what we don't want to have happen. And I think people are constantly surprised when it turns out the law doesn't.
- [08:32]
Jamie Lockless
Expressly say that a common decency thing is not actually formally against the law.
- [08:39]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Correct. For an example, you know, a case that has come up within the last year is the Harvard morgue case. Right. Remains were donated to Harvard Medical School. Allegedly, the head of the morgue, rather than sending them to be cremated as he was supposed to do, instead allowed collectors and folks to come in and take body parts, or he removed body parts and allegedly sold them to other people. I keep saying allegedly because he hasn't been convicted yet.
- [09:09]
Bob Dylan
The.
- [09:09]
JV Hampton Van Sant
From the public stories of what we've heard, there's a lot of evidence that certain types of things went on. But then the question is, is that illegal? Right. Because it can't just be that we all think that's wrong. It has to be that there is a law that says. Describes behavior and says, this is illegal and here's the punishment for it. And so I think what people have been constantly surprised about in that particular case, the folks in that case were charged under federal law. Does the federal law actually expressly make that behavior illegal? That's debatable. But there are only a handful of states that say that selling human remains is against the law, which is very surprising to many people that I talk to that that is not against the law. Clearly, in every state, the laws around.
- [09:58]
Jamie Lockless
Human remains from state to state seem to vary pretty wildly in their specificity.
- [10:04]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Correct. There's very little federal law about human remains. There's almost none about the newly dead. There are some price disclosure requirements that the Federal Trade Commission has. The federal government owns some cemeteries, especially for veterans. But beyond those things, federal law has very little say about human remains. So then it's all state law. And, you know, some of these state laws have been around for hundreds of years, and some of them are fairly new. But again, because the way that governments have created these laws is in this hugely scattershot approach. It's not like anybody sat down and said, okay, here's what we think about funerals and human remains and how long are we going to protect them, and under what circumstances are we going to protect them, etc. And let's create a system that's, like, cohesive and makes sense internally coherent. Right, right. And instead you have this, okay, Massachusetts in the 1800s and 1700s probably thought about these issues very differently than New Mexico in the 1900s. Right. Because of the people who are there and the cultural background of the people making the rules, etc. So because of that kind of, like, historical diversity in terms of when states made rules and also the people who were in those places at the time the rules were being made, you get a lot of differences from state to state.
- [11:25]
Jamie Lockless
Have you encountered examples of American laws being in conflict with other cultures?
- [11:32]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Yeah, absolutely. This is the part of the law when people are sort of newly dead. Right. Is the way the law is structured generally in the states says within X number of days after death, you people surrounding the dead body have to do particular things. Right. Maybe you have to report the death to the government, you have to get a death certificate, things like that. In some states, it's pretty clear you have to go hire a funeral director. In most states, families can act or religious organizations can act as a funeral director on sort of a nonprofit basis. But there has to be some kind of final disposition within a certain period of time. And then what that final disposition is is also dictated by statute. So until about 10 years ago, I would have told you your only options are cremation, burial, entomant in a mausoleum, or donation to science. In the past 10 years, we've had alkaline hydrolys, which is basically dissolving people, and then natural organic reduction, which is composting people. Those two methods of disposition have been increasingly legalized in the states, still state to state, but there are a lot of other practices that are done around the world that aren't on that list. Right. Because when we started, when America started, the only option was burial. That was the only option because that was the only option that the Protestant Christians who wrote the laws would entertain. It took a hundred years to get cremation legalized, but cremation is widely practiced in other areas of the world. There's just a buzz, a bunch of death rituals and methods of disposition that are expressly not legal in the United States. And so I think that creates some. Some problems in, in an increasingly diverse society.
- [13:19]
Jamie Lockless
And I think it's fascinating just like, hearing how, how much of the existing law is sort of connected to commerce. It sounds like.
- [13:28]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Yeah, I mean, it started out, I'd say, at the beginning of American history, death was the province of families and religious organizations. And this is consistent with a lot of, kind of trends in society. Right. We used to grow our own food. Now we're increasingly divorced from that. And we have to go to the grocery store.
- [13:46]
Jamie Lockless
Right, Right.
- [13:47]
JV Hampton Van Sant
People used to die at home. Now people die in hospitals or nursing homes. We used to take care of our debt at home. Now funeral homes handle that for us. So, I mean, it's kind of part and parcel of like, industrialized society that we've taken a lot of these sort of fundamental processes out of the home and commercialized that activity. But then there's also a swing back. Right. Okay. I don't like going to the grocery store. I'm gonna go to a farmer's market. I'm gonna have more of a direct connection with my food. I don't want my loved one to die in the hospital. I want them to come home and be in hospice care before they die. I don't want a funeral home to handle all these things. I want to do a home funeral. So there's. There's sort of a move towards, I call it the Walmart advertising of America. And then like a swing back to sort of more authentic practices.
- [14:33]
Jamie Lockless
I'm gonna kick it to Louisiana now. Were you familiar with the Bonghazi story?
- [14:40]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Yes, I had heard of it. I had heard of it.
- [14:43]
Jamie Lockless
Okay. Do you recall what you made of the story at the time?
- [14:48]
JV Hampton Van Sant
So I am never surprised.
- [14:51]
Bob Dylan
Okay.
- [14:53]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Because I probably hear about more of these stories. Most people do, because whenever something like this happens, like, all my friends email me or text me and say, have you heard about the latest? So.
- [15:07]
Jamie Lockless
Right.
- [15:08]
JV Hampton Van Sant
I wasn't super surprised. I. Yeah. Also super illegal.
- [15:12]
Jamie Lockless
It feels ridiculous to ask, but since I have you, I'm going to.
- [15:16]
Bob Dylan
Yeah.
- [15:16]
Jamie Lockless
Why is this illegal?
- [15:19]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Well, this activity took place in Louisiana. You know, I teach the law, so I always tell my students, I'm going to tell you what the law is, and I'm not going to tell you what the law is in Louisiana because Louisiana is always so different. Different because.
- [15:32]
Jamie Lockless
Okay.
- [15:32]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Yeah, in. In terms of the way the law is structured, because the United States is a common law country, except for Louisiana, which has a lot of echoes of civil law because of the French history. So there are definitely some things that are unusual. But Louisiana also takes the dead very seriously. So there are a lot of laws that are very specific in Louisiana that do not exist in many other states. In general, it is illegal to disturb graves. So if a body has been placed in the ground or in a mausoleum, almost every state has a criminal statute that says you cannot disturb that grave. Right. Now, the exact wording of those rules differs from place to place, but Louisiana's says it's unlawful to knowingly disturb an unmarked burial site or any human skeletal remains. So even if you didn't dig, even if you just picked up human skeletal remains out of a cemetery or from the burial site, that's expressly illegal in Louisiana. In Louisiana, it's unlawful to knowingly buy, sell, barter, exchange, give, receive, possess, display, discard, or destroy human skeletal remains. They're like, we mean it.
- [16:46]
Jamie Lockless
It sounds like there maybe wasn't a worse state to have done this in.
- [16:51]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Yes. That I would Agree with that.
- [16:53]
Jamie Lockless
Were you surprised about the online reaction to this and the way that we sort of interact with death, specifically with human remains in online discussion?
- [17:04]
JV Hampton Van Sant
I mean, no, because I think you see echoes of this same kind of disagreements in the Harvard Moore case. Right. And. And then John's bones was another thing. Every once in a while, these things sort of pop up. There's definitely folks who don't have a problem with this. I think that they're in the small minority. They exist and they're very active online. So I'm, you know, I'm not surprised that there are some people who. Who think that. That it's okay to. To use the dead in whatever way sort of the living want to do it. But what I thought was interesting about this particular case was sort of the layers and the waves. Right. Of reaction, because the initial. Right. There's no shaming in this group. And then talking about what cemetery the remains were being taken from. I mean, it is absolutely true that. But, you know, there's a ton of bones and human remains in private collections, in museums, in academic collections all over the country. And it is not people of wealth and privilege whose remains end up in those collections. It is marginalized people largely, largely, largely without their consent whose remains end up that way. So what's fascinating, one of the fascinating things about American attitudes towards death is on the one hand, we have in expressed in the law these super absolute statements, right? Once placed in the ground or in a mausoleum, human remains, the. The remains themselves, the deceased person has a right to perpetual, undisturbed repose. And that makes sense historically because the Christians believe that if you move the remains from consecrated ground, then you jeopardize their chances of eternal salvation. In. From a historical standpoint, it makes sense why that is sort of baked into the law. But then on the other hand, we have, well, unless you want to do something with the land, and then we can move the remains, right, in an organized kind of way, but we don't throw them out. So we have these incredible expressions of respect. But then you got all these human remains everywhere, right? Where did these bodies in the museums and private collections come from to see that kind of tension play out in. In the Internet, Is there a place.
- [19:16]
Jamie Lockless
Where what they did is legal?
- [19:18]
JV Hampton Van Sant
No. Okay, well, let me say it this way. What they did was walk past a burial ground and see skeletal remains on the surface, and they picked them up and took them home. If a person has no legal right to exert control over human remains, they have no legal right to exert control over human remains. Right. So it's the next of kin or a person appointed by the deceased who would have the legal rights. And then those legal rights are constrained in particular ways. You have to dispose of them finally within X number of days after death, that kind of thing. Right, right. You have the law making it expressly illegal to do that kind of activity in Louisiana. Most other states don't have a law that's that specific, but they don't create a legal path either. Right. So there are some activities that are not expressly legal, but they're not expressly illegal either. You can't find permission in the law to do a thing, but you also won't get punished if you do it. I mean, first of all, Louisiana has a lot of graves in the ground. There's a ton of flooding. The water table is high. Graves wash up every year in various places in the state. And it is a nightmare to try and identify remains and get them back in the ground where they're supposed to. So I think that they probably have, because of the natural circumstances of the land, they have more problems than many other places do.
- [20:44]
Jamie Lockless
Where is this area of law headed? Is the Harvard case.
- [20:48]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Do you.
- [20:49]
Jamie Lockless
Do you anticipate there being any significant change or have you felt a shift in awareness or willingness to talk about death since you've begun studying this area of law?
- [21:00]
JV Hampton Van Sant
I have not. I mean, culturally, at the edges, you see more willingness to talk about death. I don't know that that will filter through. You know, the problem is when you have law at a state level, you really need interest groups who are willing to go in and lobby the state legislatures to adopt particular laws. The issue with making it more clear about what we can and cannot do as human remains, like in sorts of cases. Right. Like after disposition is who's the interest group? Who's going to go lobby the state legislatures to change the laws?
- [21:35]
Jamie Lockless
Right.
- [21:36]
JV Hampton Van Sant
The public is really bad at mobilizing. So if a couple state legislators read the news and get really disturbed by it and want to push it, but you just don't have any sort of organized group that's saying, let's make this more clear, it's only expressly illegal in, let's say, nine states to buy and sell human remains, it should be illegal in every state. Let's go into the state legislatures and make that happen. I don't know who's going to do that. Yeah. So I'm not super optimistic that this is going to happen anytime soon.
- [22:06]
Jamie Lockless
Thank you so much for your time. This was. This was fascinating. Truly.
- [22:10]
Bob Dylan
Oh good.
- [22:11]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Well, thank you.
- [22:12]
Jamie Lockless
Thanks so much to Tanya Marsh. You can buy her book at the link in the description. And when we come back, insight from a real life witch.
- [22:28]
Dave
Looking for excitement. Chumba Casino is here. Play anytime. Play anywhere. Play on the train. Play at the store. Play at home. Play when you're bored. Play today for your chance to win and get daily bonuses when you log in. So what are you waiting for? Don't delay. Chumba Casino is free to play. Experience social gameplay like never before. Go to Chumba Casino right now to play hundreds of games including online slots, bingo, Slingo and more. Live the chumba life@chumbacasino.com VGW Group no purchase necessary Void we're prohibited by law.
- [22:55]
Tanya Marsh
Seek terms and conditions the following ad is sponsored by Pets Best Insurance Services. Your pet is your bestie, your therapist your preferred match. It's easy to love them, even when they sneak your snacks. It's easy to protect them too with pet insurance coverage from Pets Best because it's all fun and games until they chew on something they shouldn't. With perfect timing, Pets Best helps protect your furry friend and your buddy budget from this imperfect world. Get up to 90% on eligible vet bills for less than a dollar a day. Find your perfect match@petsbest.com pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company. For all terms, visit petsbest.com policy.
- [23:42]
Joanna Teplin
Oh.
- [23:43]
Dave
It'S such a clutch off season pickup, Dave. I know, right? I was worried we'd bring back the same team.
- [23:48]
Jamie Lockless
Oh no.
- [23:49]
Dave
I meant those Blackout motorized shapes. MVP of the room. Blinds.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. Even you could do it. Nice. I installed these and then got some for my mom too. You fly across the country to do the install? Nope. Blinds.com can do it all. All she had to do was pick what she wanted. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install. Look at you, hall of Fame son. Oh, I just picked the winning team. They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world. Oh, blinds.com is the goat the goat shop.
- [24:25]
Tanya Marsh
Up to 45% off select styles plus a free professional measured and a 100% satisfaction guarantee during the blinds.com year end blowout. Up to 45% off now at blinds.com/blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply.
- [24:41]
Shanna Hudson Stowe
Have you ever considered becoming a surrogate at my Donor Connection, you can help a family bring their baby home while earning 50,000 doll or more. Use your compensation to pay off debt, save for a home or achieve your dreams. We're looking for women who loved being pregnant and want to help others experience parenthood with unmatched support every step of the way, your journey will be life changing. Take the first step today. Visit mydonorconnection.com surrogate to complete our quick questionnaire and see if you qualify. That's mydonorconnection.com surrogate.
- [25:12]
Dave
We have one more act for you this evening. I don't even need to say his name. Mr. Wapkins. Dylan, a complete unknown, is now a Golden Globe in Critics Choice nominee for Best Picture.
- [25:22]
Jamie Lockless
Bobby, what do you want to be?
- [25:24]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Whatever it is they don't want me to be.
- [25:26]
Dave
Timothy Chalamet astonishes as Bob Dylan in one of the best performances of the year and critics rave. Edward Norton is absolutely fantastic.
- [25:36]
Bob Dylan
70, 000 people are here and Bobby is the reason for it.
- [25:41]
JV Hampton Van Sant
They just want me singing blowing in the wind for the rest of my life.
- [25:44]
Jamie Lockless
How does it feel?
- [25:46]
Dave
Don't miss the movie. Critics are healing. Five stars. It's pure cinematic magic.
- [25:53]
Bob Dylan
Turn it down.
- [25:53]
Dave
Pay loud and named to AFI and the National Board of reviews top 10 films of the year.
- [26:01]
Jamie Lockless
Make some noise BD track some mud.
- [26:03]
Dave
On the carpet A complete unknown now playing only in theaters. Rated river under 1790 minute without parrot.
- [26:22]
Jamie Lockless
Welcome back to 16th minute. Everything I know about witchcraft I learned from my Uncle Dennis. Here he is talking in my last podcast, Ghost Church.
- [26:32]
Dave
I don't try and get anybody to believe it anything. I don't care what you believe. It's your business. For those that believe, no proof is necessary. For those that don't, no proof is sufficient.
- [26:44]
Bob Dylan
I can't make you believe something you.
- [26:47]
Dave
Don'T want to believe. I can only tell you my experiences.
- [26:51]
Jamie Lockless
And today we're talking about the Tumblr Bone Witch. So now we understand how the law in Louisiana and across the US range considerably, making Darling's conviction all but inevitable. But again, while there is no world where I would condone stealing the bones of a disenfranchised stranger and putting them in the US Mail. I do feel bad that this essentially derailed Darling's life. Because while it's true that they broke the law, my anti carceral heart can't help but think that part of why this happened was for the entertainment of the Internet masses. And that's complicated too. Because within those masses were a number of black and indigenous witches who were understandably angry with Ender Darling for, in many people's view, completely misconstruing their spiritual practice. But let's be honest, there were plenty of people watching Bone Ghazi who were strictly there for the weirdness and the spectacle of it all. So, listen, I needed to speak with a witch who had a background in the magic that Darling claimed to be working with. And not to brag, but I know someone. Here's my chat with my pal, the wonderful JV Hampton Van Sant.
- [28:09]
Bob Dylan
Hello, everyone. I am JV Hampton Van Sant. I am a voice actor, a drag queen, and a witch of some several types. Honestly, just a witch, generally a witch about town.
- [28:22]
Jamie Lockless
What is your memory of encountering this story for the first time?
- [28:26]
Bob Dylan
So I didn't encounter this while it was happening, but Tumblr history is so fascinating. There's so many wild things like this that just happened on there, and I'm like, wha. What? So I was raised Unitarian, which I feel like is the reason I don't have religious trauma. Just point blank, period. I just don't. The whole thing that they let you do is like, okay, so. So you can stay here if you want, but you can also, like, make a decision to not be here if you don't want. I was at that point just drawn to paganism in all its different forms. At 13, I made the decision to, like, not go to that church all the time. I still go there on occasion because of that and because I'm now 34, I have now been. I've now been pagan for over 21 years. I remember my early years and the, like, the things I would think about and get up to, and. And this entire controversy was feeling very much like, oh, this is your, like, first, second, third year of this, where you're not quite sure of all of what this is. So we. There's some stuff to work out there.
- [29:38]
Jamie Lockless
But when you were exploring paganism, were you using the Internet a lot? Where were you going? Sort of. What were your resources as you were learning?
- [29:47]
Bob Dylan
There's a small shop in my town called Crystal Essence. They had a, like, very robust, like, book section. And I started working literally at like 12, because I wanted to be out and doing things rather than. And earning money a little bit too. So I bought some books from them and it was very much like, congratulations, you've decided you want to do witchcraft and things. Let's go through the basics and also tell you some shit not to do because you're teenagers and you don't. You don't need to be messing with shit on this level, on these huge, powerful thingies. There's a part of the post where she starts talking about, like, I work with death and I work with death magic. And part of me was immediately like, why? What are you doing? Not Necromancer, very clear about that. But also, what the fuck are you doing with me?
- [30:38]
Jamie Lockless
This sounds silly, but could you walk me through why this is wrong, specifically in the context of having been a witch for so long?
- [30:50]
Bob Dylan
All right, so all of these are like wildly practical concerns. If you think about what bones are. They are things that were in the body that housed a human soul. Right. That's what they, generally speaking, are. And that's why bodies are kind of sacred and viewed as sacred and important across literally every religion. Anything that was tied to a specific human soul. Thing number one, whatever you're going to do with that thing, that soul also has to be on board with whatever you're doing. I highly doubt whatever they were planning on doing, whoever they were doing it with was probably not on board with it. Just for curse work specifically, I don't think so. So just on a practical level, it's gonna fuck up whatever you're gonna do because they aren't on board with whatever you're trying to do because you've not asked them and you've not shown them any level of respect in, like, the use of their bones in any way. So point blank, period, you've disrespected somebody so they're not going to want to help you. Thing number two, items that are, like, tied to a specific person tend to also link whatever you are doing to that person. So if you are attempting to do a curse on somebody, you have bones of a completely different person. That's gonna fuck up where the energy goes.
- [32:09]
Jamie Lockless
I mean, I know it's awful, obviously illegal, but it also is impractical as far as witchcraft goes.
- [32:16]
Bob Dylan
Exactly. This speaks to me of, like, you were going for an aesthetic and you weren't going for the practicality, because the practicality of that would have you consider energy. And energy is specific, and it's specific to each person, you would then just be muddling everything up with that energy. So, like, if what this person wanted, and here's where I'm going to be slightly controversial and give alternative options, and I will use myself as like a sort of reference for this. A friend of mine a few months ago was having issues with an ex who kept, like, contacting Them, this ex had abused them. So it was, like, kind of a bit of a serious thing. So in addition to just socially surrounding him constantly with, like, people that would keep him safe, I decided to throw in a little bit of curse work on my own. What I used for that, rather than, like, I don't know, anything bone related, I used the dirt from a grave site of a civil rights leader whose legacy is such that she has a domestic violence center named after her. So, like, it made. The energy was tied there, and I knew that that was the type of work. Also, I attempted to commune with her a bit so, like, I could ask for permission for that and, like, offered something in exchange for the little bit of dirt that I was taking from that little graveyard. Another sort of alternative to that is to leave a quartz crystal, something that absorbs energy anyway, Leave that above the grave of the person you are specifically. You want their energy and their help with this. You leave that there. You let that charge a little bit. People tend to not take things from graveyards generally. So if you do go and visit, like, respectfully, and you leave that there, it'll take up the energy that is needed. And then you come back after a few days, you bring that home with you.
- [34:07]
Jamie Lockless
Okay. And then that way there's no, you know, explicit quote, unquote, disturbance of the site.
- [34:13]
Bob Dylan
Exactly. Yes. Because, like, I will own the part that I did technically would also have disturbed a little bit of the site. I took basically, like, a little bit of grass and, like, a small bit of dirt, but, like, not a noticeable chunk. Just like, those specific sort of plots that I like, know what legacy they have and I know what their life's work was. So you also have to know where this is coming from. They have a good. A good system generally around keeping these things safe. In places where this is a huge concern, there's a way to handle all of this that is so much more respectful of the dead, respectful of the people that were at one point there, who to some degree are still there in terms of energy and spirit. Their consent is also important in everything that we do. Consent is always important, and this entire situation was devoid of that consent. And part of that is the poverty of it. Like, if I recall correctly, it's the pauper's grave that they had said, at least in the initial post.
- [35:10]
Jamie Lockless
It was the tenor of online witching communities as you've experienced them.
- [35:17]
Bob Dylan
So I have had very limited sort of experiences with online witch communities, but I have had a lot of experience with online communities in general. It's unfortunate that that's the case because I do think that the Internet should have safe spaces. But like, in a community that is that large and full of that many people, yeah, that's gonna happen. Particularly if you start doing something like a little fucking crazy, for lack of a better way to refer to it.
- [35:46]
Jamie Lockless
Like, they did something that I sort of think they didn't understand quite how illegal it was. And then instead of taking the criticism, got very defensive and doubled down and doubled down and doubled down.
- [36:00]
Bob Dylan
My go to instinct and I think uncarly said it in her video as well, which is I would straight up just delete my Tumblr and I would leave. Like, I just. Like, I'm gonna ditch Tumblr and I'm gonna also leave that Facebook group and then I'm gone. Like, no one will. Like, no one will know that that is me. No one will be able to talk to me about this. And I'm not going to respond about this further. And I'll also delete that post in that group because at that point, like, well, people have taken this out of context and have taken it elsewhere. The aim is just remove posts so that no one can continue to contact me wherever possible.
- [36:37]
Jamie Lockless
Scorch the damn earth.
- [36:39]
Bob Dylan
Just baseline safety reasons. Also, ain't nobody need to go around threatening, threatening people's children. That's stupid. That's. That's corny, that's tired. That's played out. We're not doing that. I did appreciate the line, I'll put your teeth on my altar. That was good. That was kind. I loved that they had me with that. That said, the reliance also on like indigenous practices to some extent. One of the things that I've been researching more just as time has gone on is root work and things like that. So root work and conjure are not an aspect necessarily of voodoo, but something related to it in that this, this is the folk magic of the American south, as it were. I have looked into it. A lot of it does come from the blending of multiple cultures, including indigenous American cultures and indigenous African cultures and just these different roots and has all those different roots in different medicinal practices. Honestly, more than anything else, medicinal was the primary thing that I, when I like look at the qualities of different herbs and items that are produced by the earth that are then used in this way, its use has been medicinal or spiritual within that. And looking through that lens of those things, yeah, these people still wouldn't tell you to use the bones of a random stranger, least of all a poor stranger. Who probably has had a difficult ass life and does not need some random people doing some weird shit that's going to get them cursed and probably their whole family lineage cursed because they're not careful. And enough. I just ultimately would be like, hey, this isn't the way. This is not a good idea.
- [38:21]
Jamie Lockless
Where the story kind of comes full circle is black witches within the group were like, well, hold on, like, how do what. How do we factor in here? Because we're not okay with this. And if the way that the group is structured means we cannot air our genuine concerns, then how is it a safe space if we're being asked to kind of quiet down when this was very likely the grave of a poor black person living in New Orleans, what now? And the group kind of self implodes from. From there because no one could come to an understanding.
- [38:56]
Bob Dylan
That is the only way that I would see that going. And the mod response to that I think is a fair one of like, well, yeah, we generally try not to criticize each other because everyone has different practices. Like there is a local witch group out here and that we have that same general rule. Everyone is welcome at any of our practices, any of our ceremonies at any point. Unless you are bringing like extremely negative ass energy and then we gonna have to kick you out. But that's like that was an energy related thing. You do have to like check in with people because once again, within every aspect of life and everything, consent is important. So like sometimes people are just not straight up gonna be consenting to death related magic. Like I just, at a certain point, people just aren't necessarily gonna all be on board with that because that's a lot. That's a lot to do and that's a lot of energy and it drains a lot out of you. Maybe don't bring that to the larger coven. That's just not what the larger coven is able to handle. You can find other people that will be able to handle it and that is then your. Your smaller coven, your smaller circle of people. But also at that point this person was probably doing it in like a solo practice, which again I would caution to them is like pretty dangerous. One of the most misunderstood things about voodoo and root work generally is the that there's a principle of balance and working with both hands, as it were. So whatever you do that is good, you might be called upon by people to do something possibly a little bit negative. But you are only in ways that restore a balance of some type or restore peace in some way. I feel like at that point, if you're thinking about things karmically and thinking about the level of, like, energy you are attempting to pull and to pull from, at a certain point, doing things then with death is maybe a little, little bit too far. And it isn't just necessarily that your own beliefs are the things that are going to affect you. It also, if you are doing something that involves another person, is going to involve their beliefs as well. So if you are violating someone's consent and they believe that if you violate their consent with one of these workings, that that will reflect poorly back on you, that's when you have to be concerned because that's then how that energy is going to be directed. I don't know. My whole thought is like, yeah, this is a young person doing a young person thing. And as a person who's been doing this for over 20 years, I would literally just want to tell them, hey, one, you're just doing too much, honey. You're just doing way too much. This is too much. I will say keep going and helping keep the graves. Like, okay, that's a good thing to do. That was a proactive and good thing to do. If you find bones when you do that, this, first of all, take note of where it is. Take a photo so that you can show it to whoever is in charge of maintenance of that place so that they can deal with it. It's weird, it's strange. I. I'm personally not okay with that as a thing, but the government seems to never actually care about the bodies of people of color. Just ask any museum, ever. Consent is always the thing that I look to first for literally everything, but specifically for something like this. Is every party consenting to this? And yes, even the dead. Even the dead. If the dead are not consenting, things go. Things gonna take a turn and it's never gonna be for the better.
- [42:24]
Jamie Lockless
Thank you so, so much to JV for their time and for sharing their practice. It was genuinely enlightening to hear from someone who has experience in traditionally black American forms of spirituality and witchcraft. And also, also, JV is just really funny and cool. You can follow their work at the links in the description. And when we come back, what can we learn from Bone Ghazi? Can we learn from Bone Ghazi? Have we as a culture recovered from Bone Ghazi? More when we come back.
- [43:01]
Tanya Marsh
The following ad is sponsored by Pets Best Insurance Services. Your pet is your bestie, your therapist your preferred match. It's easy to love them, even when they sneak your snacks. It's easy to protect them too with pet insurance coverage from Pets Best because it's all fun and games until they chew on something they shouldn't. With perfect timing, Pets Best helps protect your furry friend and your budget from this imperfect world. Get up to 90% on eligible vet bills for less than a dollar a day. Find your Perfect match@petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC or underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for all terms, visit petsbest.com policy.
- [43:46]
Shanna Hudson Stowe
Have you ever considered becoming a surrogate at My Donor Connection? You can help a family bring their baby home while earning $50,000 or more. Use your compensation to pay off debt, save for a home or achieve your dreams. We're looking for women who loved being pregnant and want to help others experience parenthood with unmatched support. Every step of the way, your journey will be life changing. Take the first step today. Visit my donorconnection.com surrogate to complete our quick questionnaire and see if you qualify. That's my donorconnection.com surrogate.
- [44:16]
Dave
We have one more act for you this evening. I don't even need to say his name. Mr. Bob Dylan, a complete unknown, is now a Golden Globe in Critics Choice nominee for best picture.
- [44:27]
Jamie Lockless
Bobby, what do you want to be?
- [44:29]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Whatever it is they don't want me to be.
- [44:31]
Dave
Timothy Chalamet astonishes as Bob Dylan in one of the best performances of the year and critics rave. Edward Norton is absolutely fantastic.
- [44:41]
Bob Dylan
70,000 people are here and Bobby is the reason for it.
- [44:45]
JV Hampton Van Sant
They just want me singing, blowing in the wind for the rest of my life.
- [44:50]
Dave
Don't miss the movie. Critics are healing. Five stars. It's pure cinematic magic.
- [44:57]
Bob Dylan
Turn it down.
- [44:58]
Dave
Pay laugh and named to AFI and the National Board of reviews top 10 films of the year. Make some noise BD track some mud on the carpet. A complete unknown now playing only in theaters. Rated R under 1790 middle without parent.
- [45:16]
Jamie Lockless
It'S the Knicks best of 2024 sale going on now@nyx.com don't miss incredible deals on life changing leak proof underwear, unbelievable everyday bras and more from the number one leak proo brand in North America. Save big like 30% off bras, 40% off leak proof 50% off tops and bottoms 60% off swim@nyx.com that's knix.com Millions of women have made the switch to NYX's revolutionary period underwear and there's never been a better time for you to try them during the Best of 2024 sale. Save up to 40% on Super Comfy machine, washable and stylish leak proof undies. Plus shop other year end clearance deals like 30% off broadcast, 50% off tops and bottoms, 60% off swim and more. Stock up on your Knicks favorites or try something new during the knicks Best of 2024 sale. But hurry. These deals are only good while supplies last. That's knix.com hurry. The sale ends this Thursday and sizes will sell out. Go to knicks.com that's knix.com oh such.
- [46:18]
Dave
A clutch off season pickup Dave I know right? I was worried we'd bring back the same team. Oh no, I meant those Blackout motorized shades. MVP of the room. Blinds.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. Even you could do it. Nice. I installed these and then got some from my mom too. You fly across the country to do the install? Nope. Blinds.com can do it all. All she had to do was pick what she wanted. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install. Look at you hall of Fame son. Oh I just picked the winning team. They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world. Oh blinds.com is the goat the goat shop.
- [47:00]
Tanya Marsh
Up to 45% off select styles plus a free professional measured and a 100% satisfaction guarantee during the blinds.com year end blowout. Up to 45% off now@blinds.com blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply.
- [47:26]
Jamie Lockless
Welcome back to 16th minute. The closest I've been to being a grave robber was taking a taxidermy class last year and I have no regrets. And I have one more conversation about the Tumblr Bone Witch saga that I'd like to share. Speaking with Tanya and JV was was extremely helpful in terms of placing this moment along both legal and spiritual lines, lines where there was more ethical crossover than I would have expected. But I still felt that speaking with someone from New Orleans was crucial because New Orleans relationship with death and the occult is extremely unique. It's the home of Louisiana Voodoo, an African diasporic religion that to this day is organized and practiced autonomously. You may have heard of its most famous practitioner, Black indigenous witch Marie Laveau. There's also hoodoo practitioners, Druharia practitioners. Basically, the city's association with the occult is both extremely strong and, unlike places like Salem, connected specifically to predominantly non white cultures. And this combined with the climate makes for a very unique culture around Graves and death rituals as well. And there are a number of groups dedicated to preserving and respecting this wide diversity of practices. So I reached out to an organization that was one of the earliest to condemn Ender Darling's actions at Holt Cemetery, a non profit group called Save Our Cemetery. And I was lucky to speak with their Vice president, Shanna Hudson Stowe, about why this was not just a harmful act, but uniquely harmful in New Orleans. Here's our talk.
- [49:11]
Joanna Teplin
My name is Shayna Stowe. I am currently the Vice President for Save Our Cemetery in New Orleans, Louisiana. Save Our Cemeteries is a nonprofit organization that was founded in 1974 by Mary Lou Christovich, who was a formidable person in New Orleans who also led the charge of the founding of the Preservation Resource center and was a major funder for the historic New Orleans collection, hence the name Save Our Cemetery. She succeeded and her legacy is that St. Louis, number one, is now one of the most famous cemeteries in the United United States. A different approach in care and attitude by cemetery owners of particularly historic cemeteries.
- [50:02]
Jamie Lockless
I've spoken with a few different people about this story and everyone says that New Orleans has a very multicultural population and history. Something I hadn't considered was that that would of course interfere with cemeteries, with rules, with customs and with death rituals. So when you're working in, in preserving such a unique area with regards to its culture towards death, what are things you find yourself bumping up against or having to manage as the organization sort of evolves?
- [50:33]
Joanna Teplin
We took a stance very early on that we would be historically accurate and that we would also respect the dignity and the integrity of the cemeteries and the structures within it. We did not always find that other, other tours, businesses or guides took that approach. Human remains, you don't want to breathe that in. You really don't. It's just not good for you.
- [51:01]
Jamie Lockless
The the subject of the show that I'm working on is the Tumblr Bone Witch Saga from almost 10 years ago. Now, I know you said when we were emailing that you vividly recall this, so could you sort of walk me through what your experience with this was? What and what Save Our Cemetery experience with learning that this had happened?
- [51:23]
Joanna Teplin
I was doing my normal Facebook kind of scroll thing and a friend of mine said, holy crap, what is this? And my friend was aghast and appalled and horrified by it. And I was like, oh my. And I had a very visceral similar reaction to it. Hold Cemetery is what you would call a potter's field. There's two elements of a potter's field. One is that the city used this ground for unidentified people. And also people who died incarcerated in their jail system. And also when there was mass death events, such as. Or a terrible flooding event, they were buried en masse. So they're basically buried in a. Probably in a shroud, which is essentially just wrapped in a sheet, put into a grave with maybe other individuals, and then they were covered over. They did bury them fairly deeply. This is a part of town where the elevation is a little higher, so they can do in ground burials and hold is all. In ground burials, there are no tombs.
- [52:48]
Jamie Lockless
You come across this story organically and you're horrified by it. What happens then?
- [52:54]
Joanna Teplin
Well, I started making some phone calls and sending some emails, and one of them was to Amanda Walker, who was the executive director of Save Our Cemeteries at that time. And I said, we need to do something about this because this cannot continue.
- [53:13]
Jamie Lockless
Right.
- [53:13]
Joanna Teplin
And also it should be noted that it is illegal to sell human remains across state lines. It is a federal crime if you sell them across a line. So it makes sense. In fact, if you think of people who were not necessarily in toward boxes or maybe not buried very deeply, I'll say very deeply. Because the. The other element of Holt Cemetery is that it's what you would call a DIY cemetery.
- [53:46]
Jamie Lockless
Okay, what do you. What does that mean?
- [53:48]
Joanna Teplin
Do it yourself.
- [53:50]
Jamie Lockless
So just bury. Bury byob. Bury your own.
- [53:55]
Joanna Teplin
Bury your own. Well, diy, you know, do it yourself. So you would take care of your youth and. And I think that you could still do that. And Carrollton has a little section. You can do that too. So if you have a loved one and you could hire somebod to dig a burial spot and you pick a spot and the rest is up to you.
- [54:15]
Jamie Lockless
Wow.
- [54:16]
Joanna Teplin
Enter your. Your loved one and you make your own coping. You make your own marker and. Yeah, yeah. It is a place where people who did not have the means to have a formal funeral or a formal burial service service or owned a family tomb, and so there are fairly recent burials there hold is still an actual cemetery. You know, a human body can, once it starts to degrade at any number of different rates. So it depends. There's a lot of different factors involved with it, which is one of the reasons why it is a. A study of several different places to measure how things affect people in terms of forensic science. You know, when they find somebody who has died and is unattended and being able to figure out how long they were out there or to date a burial that might be 100 years old or 500 years old.
- [55:27]
Jamie Lockless
Based on everyone I've talked to, and particularly this conversation, that having a permanent resting place seems to be kind of a class issue. And it very much so.
- [55:40]
Joanna Teplin
But I think it's. It really speaks to your question about human dignity and also race and class. In. In the United States and not just in Louisiana, there was a commission enacted by state law to address African American burial that are located on private property that may not be identified or being properly cared for by the owners. And this came about, I'm going to say, 2017. This commission met once. There hasn't been any activity on that since that time. And African American enslaved burial places, you know, that's a national issue, particularly in the eastern and southeastern United States. And there has been a lot of discussion about being able to make these properties accessible, perhaps in some cases, removing remains and placing them in a place that is more secure for longevity and proper markings. The level of care and concern is really led by citizens.
- [56:55]
Jamie Lockless
Say I am walking around a graveyard and I see that there have been remains that have surfaced from a grave. What should your average person do?
- [57:08]
Joanna Teplin
I think my first and first and foremost answer to that is leave it alone. Leave it alone. Particularly, you know, in. In a place like Holt, I would say definitely leave it alone. If it happens in a place that needs to be managed, then I would bring that to the attention of the owner of the cemetery or the proctor or what they call the sexton, which is a term for somebody who's basically caretaker of the cemetery. So if you bring that to the attention of them and say, hey, look, you know, there's something not quite right. And also. So one of the things possible, in my personal experience, it could have been an animal bone.
- [57:53]
Jamie Lockless
Yeah.
- [57:53]
Joanna Teplin
You just can't be sure, depending on the situation you're in. But don't pick it up, don't move it. And whether you notify somebody or not, I would say depends on the situation.
- [58:05]
Jamie Lockless
What can we take away from this incident?
- [58:11]
Joanna Teplin
Leave it alone. You know, and also the real. Like, this was a part of a human being. The thing is about human remains is that this was a person. This is somebody who had a mother and a father, maybe they had children. But this was somebody who had a life. And that life should be respected. And their life is just as valid as yours is. Now. To me, that's at the core of the. Most of the people that I encounter who work in the funeral industry. They really do have a deep understanding of that. It was inhumane. And the most in. It was just. It was. It was really deplorable.
- [58:52]
Jamie Lockless
Thanks so much to Shanna for her time and you can learn more about Save Our Cemeteries at the link in the description. So what can we learn from the Bone Witch saga after all these discussions? I really think it has to do with who you are and what your views are. Tanya, JV and Shanna all had slightly different approaches to this story because they're individuals and they have their own relationships with death. Tanya's is very legal, JV's is very spiritual. Shanna's is community minded, and that's just the surface. I won't pretend that any one long or faith tenant will have an answer that works for everyone. It definitely won't. But here's what we all agreed. The Bone Witch maybe missed the mark. It really depends. If we're talking witchcraft, I think there's a lesson to be learned about really getting educated and listening to longtime practitioners instead of just acting alone. If we're talking human remains, there's a lot to be said about how none of these laws, for the most part, have been updated in the last century, making the punishments associated with disrespecting human remains kind of more of a slap on the wrist. If we're talking Internet, the lesson of the Tumblr Bone Witch saga is that when shit hits the fan and you did it, stop posting. My God. And on that note, the Tumblr Bone Witch and Bone Gauzy, we're putting this in the ground for real this time. Your 16th minute ends now. And I know exactly what we're going to do for our moment of fun this week. This is the Halloween media that haunts my soul. Personally, the haunted cassette tape from McDonald's that used to play on my aunt's porch until my ears blow. Happy Halloween. See you next week.
- [60:55]
Dave
What's that?
- [60:56]
JV Hampton Van Sant
I think it's a ghost.
- [60:58]
Dave
It's getting closer and closer. Knock knock. It's here. Ronald, what do we do?
- [61:08]
Bob Dylan
Panic.
- [61:09]
Dave
Knock knock.
- [61:12]
Jamie Lockless
Who's there?
- [61:13]
Joanna Teplin
Boo Ba.
- [61:15]
Tanya Marsh
Boo who?
- [61:17]
Dave
Don't cry, Ronald. It's only me. Oh, grimace, grandma.
- [61:29]
Jamie Lockless
16Th minute is a production of cool zone media and iheartradio. It is written, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Lockless. Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The Amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our theme song is by Sad13. Voice acting is from Grant Crater and Pet Shout outs to our dog producer, Anderson. My cats Flea and Casper and my pet Rockbert, who will outlive us all. Bye. With Kroger brand products. You can get all of your favorite things this holiday season because our proven quality products products come at exceptionally low prices and with a money back quality guarantee, every dish is sure to be a favorite. From sweet sugar cookies and holiday ham to that perfect slice of pie. Whether you shop, delivery, pickup or in store, Kroger brand has all your favorite things. Kroger Fresh for everyone.
- [62:31]
Dave
Hey there, it's Scott Patterson from I Am all in Again. Podcast Life Short Talk Fast Stream Gilmore Girls on Hulu that's right, grab your coffee and get cozy because all seven seasons of Gilmore Girls are now on Hulu. Stream all the witty, banner, heartwarming moments and awkward Friday night dinners with Lorelei, Rory and the eclectic mix of characters. Whether you're rewatching or going Gilmore for the first time, Hulu has you covered. It's a show. No, it's a lifestyle. It's now streaming on Hulu.
- [63:07]
Shanna Hudson Stowe
Have you ever considered becoming a surrogate at my Donor Connection? You can help a family bring their baby home while earning $50,000 or more. Use your compensation to pay off debt, save for a home or achieve your dreams. We're looking for women who loved being pregnant and want to help others experience parenthood with unmatched support. Every step of the way, your journey will be life changing. Take the first step today. Visit mydonorconnection.com surrogate to complete our quick questionnaire and see if you qualify. That's mydonorconnection.com surrogate now on BET Wednesdays.
- [63:39]
JV Hampton Van Sant
At 10, 9 Central.
- [63:40]
Jamie Lockless
BET original series Diora from Detroit from executive producer Kenya Barris and BET Studios comes what Variety calls a PI Drama with flair.
- [63:52]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Meet Diara Brickland, a public school teacher.
- [63:54]
Jamie Lockless
Turned amateur private eye after the disappearance.
- [63:57]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Of a very hot date. With the help of her friends and.
- [64:00]
Jamie Lockless
Even her ex husband, D?
- [64:01]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Ara's on a mission to find her missing lover.
- [64:04]
Jamie Lockless
D?
- [64:04]
JV Hampton Van Sant
Ara from Detroit is now on BET.
- [64:07]
Jamie Lockless
Wednesdays at 10, 9 Central, Thursday on ABC. Get ready to move that bus. The beloved series Extreme Makeover Home Edition is making a triumphant return to kick off the new year. Join the makeover mavens Joanna Teplin and Clee Shearer as they hit the road on a mission to transform lives of deserving fans. They have just four days to rally communities, demolish old homes and rebuild not just houses but lives. Extreme Makeover Home Edition premieres Thursday at 87 Central on ABC and will be available to stream next day on Hulu.