← Skin Anarchy
Loading summary
Transcript61 lines
- [00:00]
Ekta
Hey, guys. Welcome back to Skin Anarchy. I am super excited about this episode. It's very, very special because we're finally going to be talking about everything that has to do with men and what men care about when it comes to the wellness industries, the grooming industries, all of that stuff. And we have such an expert with us today. He has been a grooming journalist since 2013. He became GQ's contracted grooming writer in 2016. He's written for just about every men's publication out there, and now he's finally doing his own thing and launching his own space. He's going to be taking this even further, which is called Blueprint. And so I would love to introduce you guys to Adam Hurley. Welcome, Adam. I'm so honored to host you.
- [00:40]
Adam Hurley
Oh, Ekta, thank you so much. I'm equally honored to be here. It's a favorite podcast of mine, so I'm having a pinch me moment.
- [00:47]
Ekta
Oh, thank you so much. That makes me very happy to hear that. I want to learn all about you, though, Adam. I mean, this is such a cool move and such a cool new chapter for you. I mean, I'd love to learn about your journalism experience, your. Your journey. Right, because you have so much experience in writing about this. And where did it all begin for you? You wanted to go into journalism. Like, where did that start?
- [01:05]
Adam Hurley
Well, I was, you know, the goody two shoes in high school, and I was editor of the. The school newspaper then, and we had. I guess it was one of the top newspapers in the country. We got to speak at the national conventions and all that. So I was the editor in chief of that newspaper. And then I ended up going into journalism in college, although I shifted over to public relations. And so I got that degree, and I had no intention of actually using it, to be completely honest. I also studied film, and I wanted to work in. I graduated 2008, so I just took a bunch of different jobs, odd jobs here and there in production, in film festivals, and talent management. And the road eventually just led me back to journalism because of a job at Birchbox in 2013. They needed a men's grooming journalist, and I had all this video production experience and this web editing experience from the random jobs. And suddenly I just started using my journalism degree for a tech company. And very quickly, I also learned about men's grooming along the way. So it really just found. Found. I found my way back to it, and it's. It's felt very much like a home for me ever since that. That first day. Of the job. So I've stuck with it ever since.
- [02:15]
Ekta
Wow, that's pretty cool. I mean, I love when things happen like that, you know, it's like true destiny when things just fall together. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I'd love to ask you though, because you've covered just about every major men's publication. What's the biggest shift you've seen in men's grooming journalism over the past decade?
- [02:32]
Adam Hurley
Well, I really started, I would say, when print was dying out. I guess it's been dying out for a long time, but I was never really in the print side of things. I really hit hard on the digital side and it benefited me when I started covering men's grooming because I was not precious about the print aspect of things and I was really good at the fast paced, you know, just let's write this and get it online. And so the biggest change, I think since, since that is in the last couple years, this hard shift towards the search engine. And the search engine, especially in the last couple years, has really blurred the lines between editorial and advertising because there's such a heavy focus on the traffic that comes from those searchable subjects that a lot of the revenue comes in from the pieces that are performing really well. And so it has created this situation where we're only covering things lately that are highly searched. And that can be good because there's a lot of service journalism to be done. There's a lot of wonderful products and fantastic brands out there. But it has, in my opinion, really flattened the coverage of men's grooming because I'm not able to just write a little love letter to a new product that I'm in love with or spotlight a brand and tell their story if they're really small, because no one's searching for those things. So that, to me, has been the biggest shift in the last few years. And I do think it's actually going to change again now that AI is sort of killing the search engine. I think that will benefit the coverage, if anything. I hope at least that we will have to pivot back towards really focusing on the individual aspects of grooming and these little love letters and the things that are trends that we are spotting as opposed to reactive journalism, which has really been the last few years of my experience.
- [04:22]
Ekta
Yeah, it's really fascinating actually. And I never thought about that it was this search engine aspect, because you're right. I feel like for me, as a consumer, as a female consumer, I always looked at products for men and I was always thinking there's not enough out there, you know, And I know I've said this before on. On essay before. Our listeners have definitely heard me say where I. I'm always like, where are the men's products? You know, like, for skin care or something like that. But what you just said really kind of opened my eyes a little bit just now. Because if you really think about it, it's not that they're not out there. Yeah. It's. It's that they're not being talked about because of probably exactly what you just mentioned, you know.
- [04:56]
Adam Hurley
Yeah. And, you know, we have to place a lot of products that we know are going to sell. I will say that I've been protected by editors and publications from. From having to curate products based on partnerships or anything like that. I am given really good editorial reign over what I choose from my articles, but I still have to do so with the understanding of, you know, I know this one is going to sell really well. I know this one is going to sell really well because that is what keeps the lights on. So I almost have to lead with that sort of thing. But what I will say is, regard what your impression is of the men's side is I, you know, as someone whose inbox is inundated with men's products, I was like, no, we got plenty of men's products, that's for sure. However, there is an ecosystem that I think exists on the women's side that doesn't exist on the men's side. And there's all these brands that are so small that maybe they don't see the value in buying a publicist or they don't want to put that into their budget because it can be very expensive. And so it's a lot more built on these really small relationships. A lot of them have my phone number, and I have a very personal relationship with all these brand founders because it's such a small pool on the men's side that I just don't think there's the fervor around men's grooming that there is on the women's side. I mean, I know there's not, but I do hope in, you know, in building my own platform blueprint and in just the next iteration of content on the Internet. I do hope that we can blow this open a little more and this new generation of consumers can be a lot more interested in these wonderful men's brands that are out there and that continue to pop up.
- [06:25]
Ekta
Absolutely. No. That's why I think I love so much that you're doing this. And you're taking this step to create blueprint because we, as women even are curious about men's products. You know what I mean? Like, there is a curiosity on the.
- [06:38]
Adam Hurley
Yeah, I think half of our traffic on men's content is actually from women, whether they're shopping for their partners or. Or just out of their own curiosity, perhaps.
- [06:46]
Ekta
Yeah, no, absolutely. Like, I'm always looking for stuff for my little brother. Yeah, I'm constantly, you know, because he's got. He's still dealing with acne and, you know, all that stuff. So it's like, I don't know where to direct him sometimes. So. Yeah, I know. I can definitely see where women are still looking for their sons, for their husbands, for their fathers. Like, it's a big thing, and we're the ones usually shopping, so.
- [07:07]
Adam Hurley
Yeah, no, that's true. We. We are very aware that sometimes the audience we're speaking to is, in fact, the concerned partner or mother or sister of somebody who maybe isn't as proactive for himself. I don't want to put any adjectives on it, but I do appreciate that people are looking out for the people who maybe aren't looking out for themselves in this light.
- [07:27]
Ekta
Absolutely. Now, I want to ask you, because I've noticed this quite a lot on social media, and that's the fact that men's grooming content. Right. It's really dominated by a lot of the experts that. In the medical field, for example, like doctors, a lot of chemists are out there, some barbers, but there's not a lot of expert generalist coverage like we see in. For example, we just talked about, like, the female sector of things, you know, when it comes to beauty and lifestyle. So why do you think that is?
- [07:54]
Adam Hurley
I do think that people are looking towards the experts more and more, and those experts are making themselves more available. So if you want skin care advice, okay, well, why don't you take it from the dermatologist? If you're a Formulas Ford person. Okay. Then you follow the cosmetic chemist. And so I understand that maybe someone like me who, you know, I consider myself a grand generalist. I think of myself as like 80 to 90% of the way there in any category. And I'm the guy who can connect to the brand owners or to those experts and to make sure that the facts are right, whether I'm the one providing you those facts or I'm just quoting someone else. And so while my role has always been very important just in terms of finding the reader and understanding how to speak to them. I do think on social media that the people who have really blown up are those dedicated experts. Now that to me doesn't mean that there isn't a place for a generalist like me. But I do think it underscores the importance of me not just being me on the platform and not to make this about me, but like, let's just say, let's get in my headspace in building out blueprint. I want to acknowledge that I am a generalist. So if you have an interest in the category at all, or in discovering the new products that are in beard and shave, in fragrance, in skincare, any of these things, or just, you know, interesting new advancement in hair loss technology or in skincare, these are the things that you can find and that we will connect you with people who, who are experts in their fields to get you this coverage. And so I have to think of myself like a magazine in that way, get rid of the chip on my shoulder, be willing to be the least smart person in a lot of the conversations I'm having, and be the curious person who, who can find that expert. I do think that there is a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about on social media and there's a lot of people who are experts at it. And so if I can even be perceived as, you know, an 80% of the way there person, then I'll take that and I hope for that. But even when I'm listening to like fragrance experts or dermatologists in my own feed, I'm like, sometimes I feel so out of water in terms of what they know compared to what I know. But as a journalist, I always try to get my facts right. And so I do hope that someone who follows me knows that I'm going to prioritize factual, scientific based information. And it is that journalist integrity that you can find with a lot of us generalists.
- [10:21]
Ekta
I love that. I think that's what is for me specifically, like for myself, I can only speak of myself. So for me that's very valuable because I love the doctors and the chemists and all of the people out there, right, they're trying to educate. But there is this, I feel like, because let me just say I grew up with the magazine era, right? So I'm a millennial. I grew up reading magazines and for me that was the expert advice, you know, So I used to read like Cosmo and I would read all these magazines and I would get my advice from there and it was great. And it was editors and journal journalists talking about very important topics that I never felt like I was missing out. You know what I mean, growing up. And I would love to see that kind of same culture come back in this digital era where people can feel like the person that's giving me advice, even if, you know, it's not directly a doctor, they're a person I trust, and it's a voice I trust. And I think that's the bottom line when it comes to good coverage.
- [11:16]
Adam Hurley
The voice that the word you just chose there is really important, I think, too, because, you know, think of all the different magazines you could have picked up as a teenage, or I'm probably the same age as you. And, well, do you pick up Men's Health? In my case, you pick up gq? Do you pick up Esquire? Do you pick up Maxim? Like, which one do you pick up for that advice? And on the women's side, there's, you know, ten times as many, probably. And so that is an important thing is, like, who do you want to get this information from? And hopefully a lot of people. You know, I try not to stick out too much. I do try to fit in in terms of, like, my style and how I present myself in certain situations. And so I guess to, you know, figure out how do I stick out in the sense of getting people to stop in their scroll or follow me or sign up for my newsletter. That's. That's its own thing. But I do hope that a lot of people can see themselves and can look at me and say, I can trust that guy for information. And the voice that I'm providing is that of their favorite magazine. I've written for all of them at this point. So maybe I'm like the grand. Maybe I'm like the grand average of all those things. But, yeah, that is something that's been in. In. In my head the last few years as. As we've been planning this for. Sure.
- [12:25]
Ekta
Absolutely. No, I think that it is very, very cool that you've had that background, and you're coming from a place of like, listen, I've been talking about this stuff for a while, you know, and so I think for me, if I saw your platform, I would be very keen to follow you based on that. You know, it's like the experience there matters. And I think for a long time, this is what kind of was driving the consumers towards editorial, because it was like, we wanted to learn from the writers and the journalists that had been around for a while. They've seen everything you guys have seen everything. You've. Everything on the men's side and you've seen the products and the way they work and if they work and that experience can't be replaced. At the end of the day, I think that there's definitely a niche for experts, like in the science realm. Like being a doctor myself, I think we can speak on a wide range of things. But when it comes to like the experience of using products, the experience of like what you can actually expect, it's very difficult to speak on those things. You know what I mean?
- [13:21]
Adam Hurley
And a big part of an editor's job is to think like the consumer or think like your audience and give them things that, that they will want. Because, you know, I wouldn't get booked over and over by my editors if my articles weren't ultimately selling product and converting product or pleasing advertisers. And so there is a thing for these niche verticals. Thinking of fragrance in particular, I was just in LA recently and went to scentbar. I discovered so many brands I've never even heard of there. And I just feel like a fool sometimes when I walk in these places with these experts because I think, well, gosh, you know, even just today I got four boxes of fragrance sent to me, individual fragrances, and, and they're not really the most mass market ones. But even then I'm like, how, how am I missing all these small niche ones? But somebody who wants that in that small niche perspective knows that they can go to that place. And so I have to think like the consumer that just wants a guaranteed successful fragrance, doesn't want to gamble their money, maybe wants something that his co workers aren't going to be wearing. But you can come to me and there will be niche, there will be masks, there will be something at every price point. I thinking of everyone and trying to please everybody all at once with as many picks as possible. So that you can say, well, I can throw a dart at this entire board that he has set up and I will hit a winner. And that's how we have to think. We have to really think like a bunch of different consumers all at once in terms of budget and whether they're on a date or at work or whether they have acne or thick hair or curly hair. And there's a lot that goes on in your head, but you have a huge obligation when you are a grand generalist. And I think the, the biggest one is, is to your perceived guy, your reader.
- [15:00]
Ekta
Right, right. No, that's, that's very fascinating and it actually makes me Wonder, because I've always wondered about this, is the idea that men, from what I've observed through my life, is that when they find a product they love, they hold on to it. The consumer base is very different in the sense that I'm sure the repurchase rate in the male community for these industries is much higher than women. Because I know, like my fiance, he'll buy over and over again.
- [15:25]
Adam Hurley
He just does not change products and forget it on. On Amazon or whichever the site is. Right. Just the. The subscribe.
- [15:32]
Ekta
Yeah. Like auto. Auto ship.
- [15:35]
Adam Hurley
The Birchbox model, if you will.
- [15:36]
Ekta
Exactly. I mean, I, I guess my question is, like, how do you really judge what's actually going to be worth it for a guy in terms of time and money and getting to this place? What do you think are some of the biggest contributing factors to that?
- [15:49]
Adam Hurley
I think the first thing I always start with is, is the branding. And I don't know if that's like a guilty admission or anything else, because if something's going to sell based on them reading it in an article or seeing it on social media, it does have to look nice and it does have to look good. I think there's so many products to choose from. I genuinely think there's way too many products to choose from. And so I do think the first barrier to entry should be that it should look nice if it's going to be curated into a space of products. And, you know, there's plenty of exceptions to that rule, but that is one of the biggest rules. And so from there we can then go and look at the other aspects. For me, one of the first things I think about with men is just if he's going to repeat it and if we want him to build a habit around it, then what is the price point? So the price point to me doesn't have to be the cheapest, but it certainly can't be the most expensive. You know, if it's a moisturizer, then I want to find something between probably 10 and 40 and I want to make sure that this guy, whoever he is, is going to feel comfortable spending the amount of money so that he can maintain this habit. So you might be thinking, wow, you're not even starting with efficacy or any of these things in bullet one or two. But one of my main things is I want to get these guys using a thing and, and feeling this sort of loyalty. And a lot of that has to do with branding and cost. And also sometimes if I with baked within the branding and a lot of times within the subtext of the pitch, emails I'm getting or the conversations I'm having with these founders, I am doing little reads on do I think this brand is going to be around long enough or do I think if it' a brand new brand, do they have it in them to go the mile? Like, is this a brand that's going to be around in five years? The answer is usually yes, if they've made it as far as having a publicist or even, you know, being past my levels of consideration. And for what it's worth, like, you can get on my radar on day one if you want. It's just sometimes I maybe look at a brand and I think like, okay, I don't know if they're ready for this kind of placement yet. And so once I work my way through there, I've tested all these products as well. I'm getting like hundreds of products a month. It's wild. And so what are my experiences with the product? And I try not to universalize all of my experiences. Luckily I have a partner, same sex partner, and he has very opposite preferences than me. He has opposite skin type, opposite hair type. We pretty much do everything opposite things. I like, he doesn't and vice versa. And so I have times two, the ability to test all these things and get second opinions, or if I don't like something, I get the perspective of somebody who does and vice versa. So I am running all these things through our own experiences with the products. And also sometimes if I don't like something, I have to recognize that it just might be my preference. So what is the good in it? And, and can I see in a situation in which another guy might. So I am constantly having to look at things personally, but then also think of things universally and then put all that into a big, big formula in my head and decide, ding, ding, ding, this product works. But I guess I'm even realizing in saying this that a lot of it for me upfront is just the branding and the price and not the efficacy at all. Because the efficacy is only going to be felt if you're building something. If you're building a habit out of most of these things.
- [19:12]
Ekta
Yeah, I was, yeah, I was just thinking that. Sorry.
- [19:15]
Adam Hurley
No, yeah, but very few of these, some, some products are instant, you know, like an antiperspirant, a deodorant, fragrant, like, like there's plenty of skincare products. You know, acne might take a couple days, but like it might not be a 90 day shift or a 30 day shift or anything. Like that. But in general I'm also testing so many products that sometimes for me I'm going to the ones that I find myself wanting to use and wanting to complete. And so I'm sort of self editing as I go and saying wow, like we went through that whole bottle despite having 40 other options that we've been testing along the way. And so that type of product just sticks in my head and probably gets 10 times the coverage of anything else. It's the stuff that I'm living with that is eventually making the cut. And that is what goes into a job like mine where you are basically testing everything is you're just seeing what is standing the test of time based on all of these factors, what is clearing all of these hurdles. So I've probably lost the plot on the original question you've asked.
- [20:18]
Ekta
No, but I love, I love what you're saying and it's so genuine because honestly, at the end of the day I'm sick of just like straight like plain product reviews. You know what I mean? And that's why I think what you're doing is so wonderful and unique. Because blueprint isn't about that. It's not just like straight up product reviews or anything. You're creating a multi platform kind of space for your content where everyone can get involved. So I want to ask you, like, what is your ultimate vision for blueprint? Like where do you see it going in the next like 10 years, for example?
- [20:49]
Adam Hurley
Oh well. So we're very new. I should tell people we launched in December. And because I was traveling for work for three months, very poorly timed three months. We've been focusing heavily on big YouTube videos and weekly newsletters and those are still the intent. However, this month we've been able to pivot into more short form content and, and building a presence on social media. And my hope is that the sum of all these parts within a few years allows a. I would love to hire other people to help so that we can polish things where they need to be. Instead of two, my partner works with us, works with me as well. So it's two people doing all these things from the content management on the website, to building out our Yahoo Syndicate articles, to shooting and videoing and editing and all of that. I would love to have a podcast where I can interview people across the field, whether they're in the industry or whether they're personalities who are wellness adjacent or anything like that. I would love to be a lot more. I'm an expat for those who didn't already know, and I would love to have to be back in the states more and speaking at events and attending these conferences. I mean, I. I can think of a million different things that are lacking on the men's side. I don't know if it's necessarily a role that I need to play in changing things, but I do want there to feel like some sort of community is built around the men's grooming space as a whole. And that's my ultimate goal with blueprint, is to have other voices in the mix. So I'm. I'm not just providing my own point of view. I would love to have a bunch of writers. I would love to have them across generations and ethnicities and preferences, and I would love for there to feel like there's some sort of cohesion. You know, we have all these conventions and trade fairs for barbers, for fragrance, for the beauty industry, for all these groups. I would love for there to feel like there's one cohesive one for grooming. I would love for all these things just to sort of coalesce around the category. And so my ultimate goal with Blueprint is just to play a pivotal role in that shift. I'm willing to let it go where it wants to go, and I would love for that to be a dozen different things. A lot of people ask me, do you want to build your own grooming brand at some point? And the answer is, if that's the road that suddenly reveals itself, then maybe. But right now, to me, a grooming brand, it could be beard and shave and hair and skin and fragrance. Like, which of those would it even be? And so my. My main priority right now is just making this a space that brands look to, that they value coverage from, that other writers want to write for, that brands want to invest in. Let's add a bunch of exclamation marks after that because. Because we've sacrificed some salaries over here to. To build this and to make it something big. So if. If I can look back in. In 10 years and just say, oh, that was so cute, you know, month, two or three, when we were just getting a couple articles up a week, if that, I. I would love it for it to be the complete opposite and just to be like this factory of. Of information and helpful voices and different voices all around the, you know, capital C conversation.
- [24:00]
Ekta
Absolutely. I love that. I love that so much. And I think that right now is such an amazing time to do this, because there is, from what I'm noticing, at least, there's a cultural shift. Definitely happening on the side of, like, there is more curiosity and there is more willingness to listen and to figure out what does fit for men and, you know, and understanding. I mean, I wrote for our education pieces, sometimes, you know, we write about certain things. And I. One of the biggest topics for me has been like, there's this distinct difference between men and women. Not only, obviously from this medical science side, but there's just a huge difference in the preferences and in the consumerism, behavior. And there's so many differences. And I think right now is such an important time, right, for all of these industries, whether it's wellness, skincare, beauty, any of it. Because there are products that are claiming, like, we are unisex or we're for everybody. But then you don't see the representation on the men's side. You know what I mean? You don't see, like, okay, yes, this is a unisex fragrance, for example, but I'm not seeing a lot of men being drawn to it. And it just makes you wonder, like, why is that? Right? And I really believe it's. It's because there aren't enough voices like yourself that are just out there and they're really advocating for why this actually is a good fit for most men. And I think that's where I just. I'm so fascinated by Blueprint, because I think it's going to be an immense success. I think it's much needed at this point, you know, to have this kind of platform.
- [25:22]
Adam Hurley
Yeah, I appreciate all that because that's exactly why Blueprint exists. And I will say, on the branding side of things or on the product side, I do feel like in the last few years, we've tried to move towards this place of pleasing everybody with everything and almost flattening things, whether that's from a product side. You know, a lot of fragrances are unisex, and they should be. But then you look at the marketing, and it's probably mostly often skewed towards women, especially fragrance. A lot of that is I think women are willing to cross over and shop for men and they're not put off by it. But the thing is, men are so easily put off by things that are marketed towards women. And so men almost need the assurance that this is for them and this is for the guy. And I roll my eyes at that a little bit, but sometimes things can just be matter of fact. And that is often why I look to the branding. I don't love these brands that are just like bro juice or something. That's not a Good brand, but like I'm just sort of like what? Like that is just so insecure. But it needs to feel like something that a guy will put on his sink ledge and happily use all the time. And maybe a strange parallel on the content side of things is the flattening of content. And every piece of content has for the last few years been trying to reach the most number of readers because of that search engine. The search engine really doesn't discern what kind of person you are unless you make it a hyper specific search. And so we've just sort of been trying to reach everybody. And I do think with AI sort of cannibalizing a lot of that content, I do think it's going to be more and more important to choose your target and to point your content at that person. And I realized that me saying this is for all men is a really generalized thing and that is still a lot of people. However, I do think a lot of men will prefer to read their content from something that feels targeted towards them. And so, you know, we, we do have a lot of magazines. They've all been my clients and, and I hope that their grooming coverage continues to, to grow. But I, I sort of point to the fact that Men's Fitness, for example, a former client, well, still, I guess a client of mine, they're just not doing grooming, grooming since their rebirth a few months ago. But they, they got absorbed into Men's Journal and Muscle and Fitness got absorbed into Men's Fitness before that. And so it sort of all kept getting flattened into Men's Journal which was this general catch, all of content as the search engine was really taking over things. And now Men's Fitness just got rebirthed by Men's Journal because there was such a demand for that kind of coverage and people wanted to go to a space that's, that really had the word fitness in it and that is targeted at men because men and women probably do fitness a lot differently. And so you almost saw this demand regrow again for men's fitness to exist. And now it does for the last few months. And I, I do think more things are going to be niche and individualized in the content space these days. So even though I myself am all for, you know, I don't care. Like I would read a women's magazine if I wanted to, but there's also guys that will only read men's content. So if I can create a space and sort of be in my own perspective, indifferent about where I get my information from. I really don't care if the information I'm creating says for men. You know, grooming for men, like, yeah, it's for everybody. But if, if there are just enough people that are only going to read it if it says for men, I'm happy to pitch that tent for them. So quality.
- [28:52]
Ekta
At the end of the day, it's quality content. If you're putting out something that's genuinely informational, it's educational, it's actually valuable in nature. Like, it doesn't. Or who's reading it. I completely see what you're saying.
- [29:02]
Adam Hurley
Yeah. And, and, and I do think on the men's side, we've lacked things that can compete with, in pure editorial. I think for a long time, the, the quality on the women's side has just been so sky high and exceptional that on the men's side, we're almost like, it's almost like cute what we're doing. It's, it's really, you know, it's, it's, you know, sometimes the, even the pitches I get from publicists are really almost treating me like, like I just discovered men's grooming yesterday and I want to be like, like, hello, Like, I, I could write for Allure. I could write for the New York Times. Like, I can write for all these places. I, I am at that level. It's just that there's maybe 10 of us in the men's editorial space that are at that level, and there's like hundreds of women on the editorial side that are at that level in terms of grooming versus beauty. And so I'm hoping that we can collectively bring up the men's coverage a lot more. And that, and that even the consumers, especially these young ones that are just coming in hot with, with so much information at their fingertips and a lot more interest in the category, I hope that they can help us raise that bar over the next decade or two so that the content that they are reading isn't just treating them like, And a lot of them are beginners. And that content needs to exist. But I just sometimes feel like the consumer on the men's side isn't being given the respect he deserves. And at that point, we probably are losing them to the women's coverage. And if that guy is in the know enough about retinol or even alopecia, any of those things, he'll give up on, on the outlet if he can find something different or better at Healthline or at Allure. And I just want to create a space where we can compete for for that really informed reader as well.
- [30:45]
Ekta
Absolutely. And, you know, I was going to bring this up to you because a while ago I interviewed the founder of American Crew, and I had a really great conversation with him about the barber culture. Right. And it was like, so eye for me because I've watched men that I care about throughout my lifetime go to the same barber, you know what I mean? Again and again for years I talked to him about that. And it was so fascinating to listen to that because there is this very different kind of reporting that needs to happen on the men's side because there are things that are a cultural part of, like men's grooming, that we as women, we don't understand that and we don't really know how to comprehend it. But I guarantee if a man is reading it and he does go to, to like, say you wrote something about, you know, like barber shops and like, their history or whatever it might be, that's interesting. Right? In that category, men are going to read that because that resonates with them, you know, And I think with women, a lot of times, when women try to cover men's grooming or men's topics, a lot of times the topics and the. The little details that should be really honed in on, we kind of miss the mark there because we're not there. We don't have the experience and we don't have the personal insight to add in. So I think that was just like an example. I remember it stood out to me because I was like, wow, I just learned a lot about barbershops, you know, in this interview, because I didn't know. I didn't know this stuff. So I think that's where for even women that are reading your content, it's going to be enlightening because we don't know how men think and we don't know what really hooks them, you know, when it comes to, like, what they want to learn about. And so I think it could be a huge learning experience as well. For anyone who's out there, who's a doctor or, or chemist or you are trying to speak about things that are going to land for men, it's important to understand how to speak to the demographic. It really does matter. So I think it can be a really big learning tool, like what you're creating with blueprint for a lot of other journalists as well. I see that very clearly.
- [32:38]
Adam Hurley
So, yeah, absolutely. I've always thought it was funny when on the men's grooming side, we have an article about facial hair or even Something as weird as butt sweat, and it has a women's byline on it. And again, I'll read my content anywhere. But I do think there's something about being lived in, in terms of who you're taking your advice from. And it's sort of like I do a lot of travel writing as well. And we were just in Korea and Japan for a couple months, you know, which was a big reason Blueprint was. Was a little more dormant in its first few months. And I was staying at a bunch of hotels and spas. Great assignment, by the way, reviewing hotel spas in Japan. Japan and Korea. But I'm jealous. Yeah, but. But, you know, a lot of that stuff could have been Googled, and I could have written it in an afternoon from my apartment. But if I'm going to future proof myself as a travel writer, then I have to write about the stuff that I'm actually doing. And then if I want that to be the case, I have to actually go to the place and live in it and write about it. And it's the sort of the same thing with grooming and beauty, where there's certain things that can be Googled. You can just write an article where you're regurgitating what the brand has told you and you're saying the ingredients that are in it and saying, okay, aloe vera does this and niacinamide does this. But there is a difference in actually being somebody with the facial hair or who sits in their own sweat every single day because they're a big, hairy, you know, sweaty person. And it's the same reason that. That I hope Blueprint can become a place where I'm employing a lot of different writers with a lot of different voices, because there's a lot of things, even on the pure men's side that I can't cover. I don't know, a black man's experience. I don't know what it's like to have his hair texture. I don't know what it's like for somebody who has extremely sensitive skin. You. I don't know what it's like to have a full facial hair. I've got a patchy beard. I can write about having vitiligo. And because I have it, I would think it was weird if somebody who didn't have vitiligo was writing about it unless it was from an extremely scientific perspective. And so it's like, I can only write about certain things as a generalist, but there's so many things that are so valuable to hear. From the people who are going through them and experiencing them. I think that is why it is important to have a man's byline on an article that is very specific to a man's experience. And I. I don't know. It's. It's like a weird conversation because, like, I'm sounding very like, woe is man. Sometimes when I talk about the. The lack of courage or the lack of writers. Yeah. And I. I don't think man, like, woe is man at all in my life. But. But I do really want to underscore that it is important for somebody to see themselves in the content they're reading. And in a strange way, it is important for a man. Man who. Who probably has had everything else work for him in his life. Read an article that is. Is by another man. And that isn't Adam Hurley saying women shouldn't write articles for men. That is just saying that, like, there are certain topics in the men's side that I think should be covered by guys and should be us having a conversation. Like, we're, you know, I don't know, are we in the locker room? I don't know, are we at the bar? Wherever we are, we're just having this conversation. But. But the tone of voice is the. The. Oh, yeah, that happens to me, too. God, I hate beer dandruff. You know, those kinds of things. Like, oh, yeah, I didn't know you could use antiperspirant on your cho. It's like all these sorts of things are the stuff that we talk about. And I don't think it would be right for me to write a lot of articles on the women's side, too. The majority of that space is crossover. When you're just talking about skin or hair or fragrance, there's so much stuff that is crossover, but there is that peripheral space, stuff that is gendered on the spectrum that is so specific to that experience. And that doesn't go just for gender, you know, that goes for. For age, that goes for ethnicity, that goes for income. There's, like, all these different facets. Like, it's very different for me to write an article for Rob Report than it is to write an article for Men's Journal or even gq, because you have different things to think about and budget being one of them. And so that is the job of a journalist, especially in magazines, to just really think about all these things in the audience and yourself as the author. And I think if you are writing an article, being very aware of your shortcomings and making sure. You get the expert saying things. And again, a lot of, like the, maybe the women bylines that I was, I now feel like I was complaining about before, which, you know, a lot of them are great journalists and who are going to those experts and getting the quotes where they need to be and. And that is fantastic, you know, understanding what their shortcomings are on the topic. But there have been a number of times where I've been reading article and I'm just like, Even if it's a guy writing it or I'm just like, I don't think this guy understands. But yeah, I don't. I don't know. Sometimes I'll even Google and I'll be like, does he even, like, ever. Has even ever shaved? Like, he's talking about razors. And I'm like, I don't see him ever with a fresh face, you know, and so it's kind of. It's sort of that stuff like, is the person writing this in the know and. Or have they taken the measures to prove that they know where they're coming from? So.
- [37:30]
Ekta
Well, I mean, I completely agree. And also, like, one thing that really comes to my mind about this whole topic, I think, you know, my brother's 10 years younger than me, so he's at that stage where he's always watching these, like, YouTube videos and he's always laughing because there's a lot of YouTubers out there right now that are young men and they're creating content about things like how to be a man, you know, and he'll send me these videos and I'm like, what is going on? You know, like, young men, men are so confused right now, I feel like. And so a lot of the times, what, you know, my point is, a lot of times in these videos, it's like product recommendations. And these young men are following this blindly because they don't know. I don't think they know any better. They haven't seen the really professional journalism side where it's like someone really giving them true recommendations based on actual research and, you know, all of the wonderful things that go behind creating something that you would write about. Right. So they don't have that. So what they're doing is they're gravitating towards these random content creators, which I know all of us do, regardless of gender, but especially in this space, I'm noticing you're asking questions such as, what is the best deodorant if I want to get a girlfriend or something? Yeah.
- [38:36]
Adam Hurley
Like, you know, or. Yeah, I land my Job and get rich or something like that.
- [38:39]
Ekta
Exactly, exactly. And so I'm just, I watched this and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like a huge.
- [38:45]
Adam Hurley
There's, it's, it's no accident that some of the best performing content that we, that we ever see on, on the men's side stems from insecurities and that is in smelling good, in hair loss, always performs so, so well. And I do think at the heart of that is, is this, this consumer who wants to impress his colleagues, impress women, be dateable, be perceived as, you know, attractive when he walks into a room. And I think every human has all of these qualities in themselves. I watched that same content that he does. Not as a person. I watch it as research. I watch it as like, wow, I cannot also, sometimes I watch his videos and I'm like, wait, he phrased that in a way that like, I definitely phrase that in my article. That is number one search on Google on the topic. You know, sometimes I'm like, wait, did this youtuber just like regurgitate like something that I wrote? But I sometimes just like write off that section of the Internet. I think, I just think, okay, well, there's billions of men in the world. Enough of them are only going to go to this guy who clearly goes to the gym twice a day and is conventionally attractive and shows off all his assets on, you know, his cars and his house and all this stuff. Like, and that's a type of ambition that works for influencers. And that's why that guy is an influencer, is because he can, he can move mountains when it, when it comes to that sort of stuff. But I hope your brother is also going to doctors like yourself.
- [40:16]
Ekta
Oh, no, no.
- [40:17]
Adam Hurley
Other places.
- [40:18]
Ekta
He laughs at it too, because he's just like, what's going on? On. Yeah, like what is happening here? Because they're asking about some of those topics, right? And it's not something, I'm not laughing at any of these questions because they're very real questions these young men are asking, you know, they're asking about like whether it's hair care, sweat, whatever the need is. They're asking real questions, you know, and they're very real topics. But unfortunately their go to person is this random guy, you know, and it's exactly what you said. He goes to the gym twice a day. He drinks like five protein shakes a day.
- [40:51]
Adam Hurley
There's one in particular. I'm thinking of where he even went to Istanbul. He didn't get a hair transplant himself, but somebody he knew did. And, and the guy couldn't even pronounce Istanbul correctly, you know, And I'm just like, oh, my God.
- [41:05]
Ekta
Yeah, no, that's such a, it's such an interesting part of the Internet. I feel like this whole movement thing that's. And you know, that's why I think it's just, I, I really, really love that you're doing this. And I, I think that, you know, with time, it's going to, it's going to have such a ripple effect because I think everyone deserves to be represented. And I have been a huge advocate for this in my personal life where I feel like a lot of times men are kind of pushed to the side because everyone's like, oh, you know, like, screw the patriarchy kind of thing. Right? But it's like that has nothing to do with like, no, you know, like, everyone has needs, everyone has questions, and those questions deserve an answers and they deserve, like, researched answers. So that's where I feel like there is something that, from a cultural level that's requiring this kind of thing now, you know, because I would love to see the young men or whatever, wherever they are in their life, like to be able to go to a resource and say, okay, yeah, I can trust this. This makes sense to me. It speaks to me on a personal level. That's, I mean, that's an experience that can't be replicated by an influencer. Just, just can't. So.
- [42:08]
Adam Hurley
And I hope that, I do hope that the, the bar for influencers does, does rise with. I have a lot of faith in this really young generation who I think is just much more authentic and their sensors are a lot more honed than a lot of us who are older than them. And so I guess right now I'm just hoping that like, the person who wants to find me will find me and, and, and that there's enough of those people for me to make a living off of it and there's enough of us, those people for us to then reach even more people through our demand growing and the voices that we hire that. I don't mean this just for like, blueprint, but I hope that this kind of guy that you're referencing who is an influencer sort of becomes, I hope, a thing of the past. However, I do think that there's always going to be the type of guy that, that only wants to hear his advice from that kind of guy. And yeah, maybe, maybe it's just, it's a cut my life, losses kind of feeling, but I guess there's probably an equivalent on the women's side, too. But again, I just think that women. This is like a very cliche generalization. It's just that women are just better educated about this stuff than men are from a young age. And the bar that you need to clear as an influencer on the women's side is probably much higher than the bar that you need to clear on the men's side. And so even though maybe you roll your eyes at certain women influencers out there, I would guess that their starting point isn't the same level of insecurity that a lot of these men are starting from. And also, like, I don't even know if a lot of these men watching this have even ever used a moisturizer or a conditioner. And so it's just like a weird. It's just. It is a weird landscape. And that's where I'm just like, y'all just find me when you need me. It's fine. Like, I'm here when you need. When you need to know more. And. And. And it's pronounced Istanbul. For. For what? It's.
- [43:52]
Ekta
Right. Just for reference, I'm going to put, like, a chapter note on this part of the. The podcast. Yeah. For that.
- [43:58]
Adam Hurley
Yeah.
- [43:59]
Ekta
I mean, honestly, though, it's. It's such a. It's such an interesting space, and I'm just so excited to see someone such as yourself with such vast experience entering it and. And trying to redefine this whole narrative that's been around just men's products for so long. It's something that we need more of a spotlight on this. I'm very curious myself, you know, to learn about topics that I know nothing about. So I promise you, I'm going to be on your site, like everybody, every day, looking up, you know, what you're writing about, because it's fascinating. It's really fascinating.
- [44:28]
Adam Hurley
If you have butt sweat or, you know, beer jander of questions, like, I'm happy to answer them.
- [44:33]
Ekta
Yeah, yeah. You can never have enough knowledge. You know what I mean? So if I meet a man on the street, I can educate him, you.
- [44:40]
Adam Hurley
Know, so you see his, like, swampy khakis, you. You pointed my way.
- [44:45]
Ekta
I will. No, I will. This is great, though. I'm so excited that you're doing it. And for everyone listening, I'm going to be linking everything in the show notes. So I really hope you guys go check out the site and really support Blueprint overall because it's much needed to have this. You know, I can't say that enough but thank you so much, Adam.
- [45:01]
Adam Hurley
Thank you. And if I can also point them especially to the newsletter, you can find that link on all of our social channels, but also at our main website, too. And if the website's a little weird to type in just because all the URLs for the word blueprint have been taken, but you can go to Grooming Tips, and there's a link to the newsletter there. And that's something I really, really pride myself on every weekend, every Sunday or Monday day where I'm sending that out. And it's, you know, the best new products I'm. That are. That are, I think men are interested in. And it's sort of me living in the grooming space throughout the week. But yeah, there's. Social media will feel like a dynamic place for Blueprint. But. But for me, the newsletter is really where I really want to point people to. So please sign up for the newsletter, open it, engage with it. I would really appreciate it.
- [45:44]
Ekta
I will link that as well in our. In our show notes. Yeah, we'll. We'll link it. We'll link it in the show notes. If you're listening right now, just scroll down in the. In the notes and you'll see it right there. So you guys can go and subscribe. Please subscribe. That would be great. Yeah. Thank you so much, Adam. This has been so fun. I can't wait to have you back if you're, you know, if your schedule allows, because I'd love to have thanks actually.
- [46:03]
Adam Hurley
Or you'll be on my podcast one day. Who knows?
- [46:05]
Ekta
Oh, yeah, anytime. I'd love to. What an honor for those listening.
- [46:08]
Adam Hurley
It doesn't exist yet, but it will one day, I promise.
- [46:11]
Ekta
I'd love to. That sounds cool. And I wish you so much. All the best, you know, all the good vibes for this.
- [46:16]
Adam Hurley
Thank you. And thanks for having me on again. Truly. It's. It's. It's a pinch for moment, so I appreciate it.
- [46:21]
Ekta
Thank you so much.
- [46:23]
Adam Hurley
Yeah.
- [46:24]
Ekta
Hey, guys. So I hope you love that episode. Please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform. We are available on so many different platforms, so wherever it is that you're tuning in, just go hit subscribe. You will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes. This way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts, brand founders, industry leaders, creators, authors, all the wonderful people that we host. And that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of. Also, make sure to give us a follow on all of our social media outlets. We're available on Instagram, TikTok X, you name it, we're there. We also have a blog on Medium, so if you're a reader and you love Medium blogs, check us out on Medium. We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast Podcast. And it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more. We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets. So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode. Thank you.