B (3:15)

Well, I think we're in it right now, right. I think we're in a period, a transformative period where defining beauty is really through the prism of wellness. And I think we're going to, to that we're going to get joy. And so I think if you think backward men defined beauty for women historically, right. It was all male executives, that youth was the focus and youth was the objective. And that is not sustainable. Nor, by the way, is it attractive to me. I mean, I don't find my young daughter, she's a very pretty girl, but I don't find her very interesting at this point, to be honest. It was so funny. I have to digress for a second. I've been watching the Amy Poehler podcast and I was watching Carol Burnett on her show, and she's 92 years old. And I think the process of aging and how we age and how we manage it is being reconfigured, reimagined. 50 is now young. And it is. I'm not really. With all due respect, you know, in your 20s, I. Eh. Okay. Right.

A (4:33)

You don't. Your frontal lobe isn't developed yet. I can't really.

B (4:36)

Your viewers, your scar tissue isn't really there. You may think it is, and I know there are people who have been successful, but I think we are seeing a transformation about how we think about working culture. I think how we think about how long we're going to live and how we're going to live and that's influencing the industry a lot. Our Target consumer isn't 20. She's 50.

A (5:02)

Exactly. No, I love that. I'm so glad you mentioned that. And I, I would have to say I've definitely noticed that myself. It's actually so refreshing finally to where when as consumers, like as a Consumer myself. When you are looking for like, you know, I, I'm obsessed with skincare as I think all of us are here and I think when you look at the skincare category you can see, look at it now without anti aging just plastered in front of your face everywhere you go. I mean it's so, so refreshing to see that. So yeah, I agree.

B (5:33)

We prey on disappointment, right? You have to keep using stuff because. And you know the other thing that I think is, is interesting as well is where does the real skin biology come into play here versus every day your skin needs hydration like your body. Right. So we're not in the moisturizing business. That's game. You need it. But it's not progressive for the skin. It's not, you know, you have to use it every day. It's not as though, you know, I use it for a period of time and then my skin is forever dewy and moisturized.

A (6:10)

Exactly. No, that's such a solid point and I wish more people would understand. This is like that is the biggest, I'm not going to lie to you, that's one of my biggest pet peeves in the way that we are categorizing products because moisturizers are not going to feed your skin. You know, it's not like it's different to like work on your cells versus just pile on stuff. That's, it's helpful. It's obviously we don't want dry skin but that's not the same thing as a product that is extremely biology forward. Like you're saying. That's a whole different world. And so with that it's, I think that's a really good segue into talking about this concept of science led or science first skincare. Like what does that mean? I mean I would love for you to kind of dive into that and define it for us because as you know this industry like, I mean there's so many words, right. Like people love saying clinical skincare, medical grade skincare. I mean none of this stuff means anything. But I think when you say science first that does mean something. So yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

B (7:12)

This is my third run at this. So I, I was, when I was with Caterton, we bought Niodine, NIA 20, NIA 114N24. And that was a piece of science that was developed and it was the early nicotinamide and it was a piece of science that was developed by cancer skin cancer researchers out of the University of Arizona. We bought that company which was very tiny at the Time and then we bought Strivectin and. Which was bigger. Right. So it had scale and we basically took the technology out of Niodine and imported it into Strivectin and took that business to about 125 million in sales pretty quickly. And so the idea that was the. These scientists were not interested in being in the skin care consumer skin care business. They were really, you know, effectively going after a skin cancer prevention claim. That's they believe that if we could actually stimulate nad and thicken the barrier that we would, we would be able to help with diseased skin. And it just by happenstance. And I think you find that often in our industry, if it's real, these are researchers that are working on something completely different. And by happenstance, it has a commercial benefit. So with Virtue, which I'm the founder of, it's a hair care company. It was a scientist who was a military guy. He ran the North Carolina reserves and he also was a researcher. And his experience in the military led him to refocus on regenerative medicine, bone tissue and nerve regeneration. And he used keratin from human hair. So they harvested keratin out of the byproduct of extensions and they dialysized it and were able to extract a full functional protein. So this isn't my first rodeo with this kind of stuff.

A (9:12)

Right.

B (9:14)

I just feel like if you, if you can deliver on your promise to a consumer and, and these are all issues that are very emotional for people. My mother with her hair, she lost all her hair just from an autoimmune thing. And her whole life changed. I mean, she changed. And I think when you. These are part of the, when we talked earlier, what the industry should be doing is lifting people up as they. As each decade changes and meet them where they are. So I think if we can look in the mirror and see the best in ourselves and see beauty and see health and see wellness, which leads to joy. And I think real science is what bridges that.

A (9:59)

I agree. Yeah, no, I love that. I love what you said and I couldn't agree more. I think that it's really fascinating and I'm so glad you, you walked us down this road of understanding that some of the best innovations are happening or even they're occurring in labs that are not even. They don't care about sk care at first. They're more worried about let's solve a problem. And I think that's what this industry is so fascinating to me. Because of that, you can take oncology research and you can extract from it so much potential, whether it's a new innovation, even if it's like an understanding and you can really apply it to skin. Because. And this is where I think consumers get lost, because I think consumers think, oh, it's skin, it's. I know I have to protect it from the UV rays and I know I have to do like, yada, yada, yada, like, you know, the basics. But then we don't ever think about these incredibly complex principles that are coming out of like, what you mentioned. Regenerative science, regenerative medicine, oncology research, translational research. This is all stuff that's actually, in my opinion, the next frontier. That's where we're going to really understand skins. And so it's very, very fascinating. This is a very unique industry, I think, in that way.

B (11:13)

And you raise oncology. One of our founding partners is a pharmaceutical oncologist. That's his background. The other partner ran the stem cell institute at Harvard. The other partner was head of dermatology at Harvard. The other partner was a peptide. Probably the most renowned peptide chemist in the world at mit. That's where this came from. And so to your point, they. They're all academics. They can't even talk about products. So sometimes, and I mean this respectfully, you see product lines out there because people believe their own posture and their own reach is big enough to commercialize a brand. So we see how to doctor brands. Is there anything really scientific or unique in those. In those products? I would say oftentimes not, not to be derogatory, but again, they scale. And people believe because of the background or the person that's communicating that it has more value than it does. These people were skin biologists. Really. I mean, and to your point, skin is super complicated. Skin cells are so finicky and picky. They don't like anything. Yeah, right.

A (12:33)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's like, you know, people always scream barrier. This barrier that I'm like, I don't think people even understand what the barrier is. Let's, let's be very honest. I mean, you talk to these, these people like what you're mentioning at these incredible institutions, their understanding of skin is going to be vastly different than somebody who's just a cosmetic chemist or is working in just that realm. There's a. It's a huge, huge difference. And I think people get very angsty when you bring this up. I hate to say it, but that's the hard truth. And that's where I see this industry. I love that you really actually touched this point. Because the industry I love, there are so many moving parts, but we have to be very real at this point. I mean, this goes back to the point you were making in the beginning where it's like, now 50 is not considered old anymore. And thank God it's not. Because I feel like that's. These are the decades where you can really actually gain something from truly biology. First physiology, first skin care products. Like, that's when you can gain the most. Because now, in my opinion, this is just my scientific opinion, your skin and any organ, right. When it starts to decline a little bit, it starts actually becoming more receptive to healing. And I think that's a. That's a huge missing link in the way people think about skin care, because we don't really even talk about that. I haven't even seen that conversation come up. I've interviewed hundreds of brands at this point. So it just really makes you think, where are we going and what. Who are we trusting and. And why are we trusting them?

B (14:03)

Yeah. And, you know, look, I think. I do think the GOP one craze and two is coming the glip one. I do think it has educated consumers in a variety of different ways. Right?

A (14:17)

Yeah.

B (14:18)

Again, I don't mean to be derogatory, but historically, if you think about weight loss and the burden of weight loss, I love Serena Williams. Whole row thing. I think it's fabulous. I love how honest she is. And just the amazing. I'm a professional athlete. You can't tell me I didn't work hard enough or try hard enough.

A (14:37)

Exactly.

B (14:38)

But I think that breakthrough has the consumer believing and demanding more of us as companies, as scientists. The possibilities are there. And so I think that this transformation has led to, wow, I am going to live longer, I can live healthier. How do I want the rest of my body to look and feel? I use the cottage cheese analysis all the time. It's like, cottage cheese was gross, but now it's like, you need protein. Right. So all of a sudden, the craze of I need to work out now, I need to lift weights, I don't need to run, I don't need an aerobics class. I need to be strong, my muscles need to be strong because I need to take care of this body that is now because of the glip ones and more fit. So I think this transformation over on the left side is informing other things that are skin related.

A (15:44)

Right, Right. No, I couldn't agree more. That's an incredible point. And I want to actually, I want to dive in now, because this, the whole idea of cellular energy, I am so excited. As a physiologist myself, I've been waiting for many years for people to talk about cellular level energy and just the entire, just molecular biology component. And I, when I see nad, I get very excited now, you know, when I, whenever I see nad, I get it, happy. Because it NAD has sparked a conversation that needed to happen for a very, very long time. And I think the science circles, I think anyone who has been in science your whole life, like, we've always wondered that, why aren't we seeing it in mainstream, but like now to see it, it's so exciting. So I'd love for you to kind of dive into this world with us. Where, where are, what should we know and like, what matters in terms of NAD using it, especially in skincare? Like, what are your thoughts on that just overall.

B (16:42)

So to your point, you out of the science and medical field have always known that the body needs nad, right? You know, all of your cells, every cell, every, every living cell in everything requires NAD because it stimulates cel. And I think the challenge historically with skin is there's no way to deliver NAD to the cellular level, to get through all the way down to the cell level. Right. The molecule itself is too big. So what's happened in the last couple of years is nad, both through celebrity noise and a little bit of a bro play, this has been a little bit of a supplement sort of bro thing, you know, where almost like vitality, virility, all of those things play into this. So it kind of got its messaging through that medium. But I think the true interesting part, and again, whether your body actually you would know better than I, but systemically delivering this stuff, do you really, does your body really capture it? Do you flush it through? How are we taking enough for it to matter? Can you improve gut and brain health? I'm not smart enough for that. But what I do know is that what these founders and scientists with Aramore have been able to do is actually stimulate NAD in your own body. With the skin, you can eat protein, you can eat sugar, you know, you can give your body all those things that it needs for energy. The skin doesn't like any of that. The skin doesn't let it in. Right. You can eat all the protein you want. Doesn't affect your skin cells.

A (18:32)

Right, exactly.

B (18:34)

So it's fat. It's fat that the skin loves and the skin cells love. And so that notion of how, what are we doing here? Well, we actually have the ability through a Fatty ketone to draw down the NAD to stimulate the body's own production of nad. And that's what's happening here. So it's extraordinary science by extraordinary scientists. And I think that if we recognize that whether we like it or not, we may not see the signs of aging, but we start to age, especially with NAD and sort of our late 20s, it starts to decrease. So the idea that we can early on fend off and help stimulate, fend off the appearance of age and help stimulate healthier cells so that 28 day cycle, as they, as they shed every 28 days. Right. They are healthier cells that are moving to the top layer of the dermis. And I don't know, I think ultimately if we start thinking about these things earlier in our life cycle, and that's true of every aspect. Yeah, we're keep ourselves, our bodies in shape, we take care of our skin cells, we take care of our gut health, our brain health, if we don't wait till something happens, but we make it a part of our lifestyle. Which is where I think you're seeing longevity go. Yeah, I think we got a real good shot.

A (20:13)

I agree.

B (20:14)

Yeah, really healthy, really long, well, joyful life.

A (20:20)

I love that. And I really think that, you know what my favorite part about seeing skincare enter into the longevity realm and like really step in or. I've been a fan of armor, I think, for, I don't know how many years now. It's been at least four years, I would say. I mean, I discovered the brand and I immediately fell in love because the concept just intuitively made sense from a science angle because. Yeah, for all the reasons you just said. But also more importantly to that first point you made where it's like, we can't just think about it as just moisturizers. You got to think outside the box. And I think for me, when I saw a brand like this, it was like that little light bulb, right, that goes off in your head and it's like, oh my God, we're finally getting targeted now and we're thinking about daily maintenance. We're not thinking about, okay, I'm going to exfoliate the crap out of my skin or I'm going to bombard it with a bunch of active. No, this is like steady everyday nourishment of your cells. And that is, I've been trying to tell people this, like, I swear to God, where it's always used this idea of like, you know, when you go in a lab and you grow some cells in a petri dish, what do you put on top of those cells? You put media on top of them. That media has everything they need in it. It has all the nutrients. It has everything it need. They need to metabolize that to function, to grow, to replicate. And so when we look at our skin, I've always wondered to myself, why aren't we as consumers thinking, okay, my skin really needs nutrients to be put on top so that it can use what it needs and not use what it needs. So it's like that whole concept, when I look at a brand like RM or that's what lights up for me on the science side, where it's like, okay, this is every day. This is all the time. I can put this product on anytime. I don't have to worry about layering, I don't have to worry any of that crap. I can just do what I need to do. My skin gets what it needs done. That's what's so exciting. The longevity standpoint for, with all of this, for me. So keeping that in mind, what are your thoughts on where we're headed in the longevity space from the skin care stand?

B (22:22)

I think the discipline for a company like Aramore has to be not to proliferate and try to do everything. We don't need 50 SKUs to your point. This is accretive to whatever you're doing. We're not, we're not intending to replace your moisturizer. So I think from a longevity standpoint, I, I just, I just put a sauna and a plunge pool in my home. So I think there is both in skin and body. Your body too. I think we can do a much better job managing the skin on our bodies. We tend to, you know, this product is designed for the face, but over time I think we're going to, we're going to be very aggress about keeping that same cellular performance energy in the skin of the body as well. I think, listen, there's sort of four things I don't want to lose, right? I don't want to lose my hair, I don't want to lose my teeth, I don't want to lose my mind and I don't want to lose my skin Laxity. Yeah, my skin elasticity. So I kind of like, if I think in that context, for me that's, I gotta keep working out, I've gotta recover, which is important. Recovery is a really important component of longevity and it's a really important component of life. And I don't think we talk about it enough. We are recovering every day. From something. And it can be recovering from something good, recovering from something bad, or recovering from nothing. But we're always recovering. Yeah. So as we think about form and format in longevity, I think you're going to see more science around hair. You'll certainly see some of it from us. It's obviously a sweet spot for me. You're going to see more science around intervention. I'm a big believer in intervention. I had a Fraxel laser peel six days ago and this recovery is all aromorous. More. I'm usually down for a couple weeks after a Fraxel or CO2. So I think disruption of the skin is important too. And so that we're stimulating the skin cells and nad plays a very big role in how effective that stimulation is and how quickly you recover from that stimulation and intervention. So I think what I worry about is it gets kitschy and I don't. We've done this historically in the industry is we get on trend. Consumer gets confused. This is hard messaging to get out to the consumer because if you make it too complicated, it's just too hard. And the industry can be a little gratuitous sometimes when you're saying the same thing about a $4 product that I'm saying about a hundred dollar product. Like I promise you our cost of goods are different.

A (25:27)

Oh yeah. Yeah.

B (25:28)

So it's a discipline of both the industry spending the money on clinical data, not consumer perception that's oftentimes mixed. Yeah. Eight out of ten consumers saw their skin was dewier. Of course they did. You just put moisturizer on you. Exactly.

A (25:46)

Oh my God. Thank you so much. Yes. Yes. 100%.

B (25:50)

My hair was so silkier. Well, you just use a conditioner. That's gonna happen for the day. So I think it's incumbent upon people like yourself and. And real clinicians to. To call BS when it's BS and not let companies get away with it. I think influencers in this space. That's a.

A (26:13)

It was a. I think they need to be. They need to be educated. I'll be very honest with you. Yeah. Influencers in the space. And no hate. I'm just saying this because I need to say it. You guys need to read a lot more on skin science. For real. Yeah. Like please stop pushing products that are like 15 and then be complaining because. Yeah. Like that hundred dollar cream because you don't understand the science. So you're telling all your followers that it doesn't work. Don't do that. That's.

B (26:39)

Yeah. And it's inauthentic most of the time. Right. People are being yelled.

A (26:43)

Yeah.

B (26:43)

To say something's great. If I was to meet you and say to you, listen, I got to tell you about this restaurant in New York. That is my favorite spot.

A (26:50)

Yeah.

B (26:50)

I, I'm not getting a free meal. I'm just, I want to share something that has worked and is good for me and that I enjoyed. So that's real. It's not gatekeeping. It's real.

A (27:00)

Right.

B (27:01)

I think in this space and there's a lot of shilling going on in this space and there's a lot of misinformation being spewed. I think we have to demand real clinical data, real science and companies who are committed to, to being transparent and accountable for what they're claiming things are going to do.

A (27:24)

Yeah, I agree. I could not agree more with you. I think this is, it's completely up anyone's alley who has studied even a day of science. If you're not demanding brands show you actual clinical data. At this point, I don't even know what you're doing and why you're spending your money. Because now, especially now, with the amount of access that brands and companies have to CROs to people who could run clinical trials for you, they will get it done for you. Just go and opt in, do it. If you're not doing that, that just shows me that you're not wanting to be transparent. There's something there that you're not wanting to get uncovered. Because exactly what you were talking about where it's like, I don't care if 9 out of 10 of your picked consumers said, oh, yeah, my skin felt softer. That's great. That's. My skin feels softer after washing it with water. You know, it doesn't mean anything at the end of day. I mean, I, yeah, I think it's a huge. This is, this actually uncovers a giant, giant part of all of this. And over the years, I've had the honor of hosting so many science forward brands. And I think this is where I get very frustrated as both a scientist and a consumer, where I look at these great brands, right. And I see this incredible bottleneck that has been created in the industry between consumers and brands where it's like you can't get through because of exactly what we were talking about just now. 1 think people like influencers, people that might not have the right scientific credentials and background to even evaluate how the science works. And they're out here preaching to masses about how, oh, you just need a moisturizer oh, you just need a random hyaluronic acid serum. No, you need a lot more than that. Sometimes there might be more potential. So yeah, there's a huge. I feel like there is this injustice happening because a lot of brands. And going back to your point about that $100 cream, the amount of money that brands spent on just R and D alone, why aren't we, why aren't we normalizing that? That's my question. If a brand isn't pouring millions into their R and D, I'm a little concerned at this point because what are you doing? Why are you creating redundant products? Yeah, I don't know. There's just so many different issues I personally have with that whole side of skincare. But I think it's a very, very interesting time for this category just because I think consumers want to know. It's just a matter of like, how do we teach them? How do we get the right information?

B (29:43)

Yeah. And being able to credentialize real science. Right. We kind of hit it with the clean beauty. You know, people have their different credentials, whether it was a retailer or whatever. But I think we do have to police ourselves because to your point, it is very common in this industry to put trace level ingredients in that allow you to make a claim, but they're not in at a, they're not in a molecular weight that's heavy enough to do anything. So 99.9% of the ingredients in skin care products do not penetrate the skin barrier. They just don't.

A (30:17)

Yeah.

B (30:18)

And honestly, oftentimes because we don't want them to, because we never wanted to trip a drug claim. Because if you knew you had function at the cellular level, you effectively are tripping drug claims. So we're careful industry regard. We're very heavily regulated. This industry is more regulated than the supplement industry, which you are, you are taking orally and putting it into your body. The skincare industry is more regulated than the supplement industry. So there's this battle that goes on there. But the reality is, to your point is we as consumers, we as experts, we as leaders have to do a better job. Have to do a better job. But misleading consumers for our own commercial benefit. Again, if you look at what happened to Drunk Elephant, these are the things. And it does catch up with you at some point. But I agree with you completely. I think we can do better and we should. We're a huge industry. Billions and billions and billions of dollars spent around the world in this industry. We should be more transparent and we should be more authentic about what we actually can achieve.

A (31:31)

I completely resonate with everything you're saying and I agree. And I actually want to ask, going back to the NAD point because, because Rmore to me is incredibly unique. The brand is incredible. I've been using, like I said, I've been using it for so long. And you had made a really excellent point about the recovery thing that you said because you know, when the first time I noticed real results and this was overnight, mind you. So for all of you out there that are looking for instant gratification, I can tell you vouch, I personally can vouch for this brand's instant gratification results. I was using, it was an exfoliation night for me. I had put on like an overnight, overnight exfoliation product. And then I put Armour's moisturizer on top. Okay. The cream on top. And I woke up to the most beautiful, glowing, healthy looking skin I think I have. Literally I had to stop and look at myself in the mirror and be like, are you serious right now? And that's when I got sold on that brand. And I was like, okay, this is done. This is a forever staple in my, in my routine. I'm never getting rid of this. So it's like that recovery point is so huge, especially when we talk about nad. And I really would love to ask you, where do you think understanding needs to evolve for people? Like, where do you think that missing link is in terms of like getting people more on board with nad? Because I get these questions a lot. Right. At least I get them every day in emails like, oh, do you even believe in nad? And all this? And I always saying yes, because yes, of course I believe in nad. Any biologist would. But where do you think we are missing the mark with the marketing or like the messaging?

B (32:55)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and it, you're right, it's, it's so, it's it's to get people to think differently about healthy, well, skin is to think of it from not what you're seeing today at the dermis, but it's to go down to the cellular level. You have to start fighting this fight at the deepest level you can get to. And what's happening is the healthier and the more energetic. Dr. Anna Mandanova uses this analogous. And she's Belarus, so sometimes it comes out a little funny, but she'll say, think of it as soldiers that are in line and they're working their way up to the front lines and there's stacks of them, right? There's eight layers of soldiers where there's eight layers of skin. Right. And the top layer is really strong, but it only stays there for a certain amount of time. The bottom layer, as you age, as it's working its way up, is getting a little bit more fractured and weak. It's a little bit like, it's got a little bit of fragility to it. So you're seeing it. By the time it gets to the top layer, it has some cracks and some crevices in it. We want those soldiers to be strong and full and really robust. And if they are, when they. Each time you shed that layer of skin, you're getting these really healthy skin cells come to the top. That's what you're seeing as a benefit. And so we think about it in the context of disruption, if you're using NAD prior to any intervention, those cells will be healthier and more absorbent of the nad. But also, as your body is recovering and healing, those cells that are working their way through are just healthier.

A (34:58)

Right.

B (34:58)

Your soldiers are strong. And I think that if we start to help people understand that we age from the inside out, not from the outside in.

A (35:13)

Right.

B (35:13)

You know, as it relates to skin, at least that's all I can talk about. And hair, you don't face the insults or you face them much later.

A (35:23)

You.

B (35:23)

If you. Oftentimes, you'll. I'll hear. I'll hear this. And I'm sure you hear it as well. Ah, perimenopause. My skin changed. My hair changed. Yeah, of course, because your cells are changing.

A (35:34)

Right, Right, exactly.

B (35:36)

That's a part of Cells age. And so if we can slow that aging process in the cell or that wellness process in the shell, keep those cells healthy, you would do it. You do it for your heart, you do it, you know, you do it for your brain.

A (35:52)

That's right.

B (35:52)

Let's do it for our skin.

A (35:54)

I completely agree. Yeah, that's a. I think that's very, very. That's huge. And I think that's incredibly easy to understand as well, because you're right. Like, I mean, for every other organ. And this has been one of my biggest. I think that's why I even started the series on longevity on a skincare platform, was because for every other organ in the body, we are thinking about longevity. That's what preventative medicine is. That's the entire principle that it's founded on. And for some reason, for the longest time, we've just looked at the largest organ of our body as just, oh, well, we'll figure it out. We'll just bombard it with things when we need to. That just can't be it. It can't be the solution, it can't be the mindset. And I know there are people out there that are going to always be playing devil's advoc. Especially because skin is, let's be real. You know, the skincare industry is. It's a huge industry. There's a lot of money floating around this industry and people have a lot of agendas. And I. And that's the truth. But we cannot let science get drowned out in those agendas. And it's. To your point of, if there's any scientist out there that doesn't understand the concept of exactly what Malicious has just explained where it's. If you don't feed, like even going down to the basal layer of your skin, if you aren't thinking about those cells and what they're actually responding to, when they start maturing, when they start differentiating, you're not, you're not thinking about the science. You're not thinking about it because any scientist will tell you you have to go to the earliest possible version of a cell to create change. And that's exactly where this type of skin care fits. And this is where longevity skincare is one of the, in my opinion, the strongest sectors of longevity is skin care. So, like, yeah, I just, I, I believe so hard in this, you know, like, I'm really a believer and I, I've seen the results in my own skin. You know, I don't even have to believe I've seen them.

B (37:45)

I mean, I do. And, you know, it's always interesting when you know something's working. It's when someone else says something to you. Yeah. I was at a soccer game when I started, about a month after I started using the product, and someone said me, what did you do? Of course, like surgery. I said, I didn't do anything. No, your skin, it looks amazing. And it's like the validation because we look at ourselves every day, right? And sometimes we only see the worst in ourselves. And someone else. You said something earlier that I thought was really important and so true. You know, the skin is the largest organ in the body and it gets beat up the most. Right. It's the shield. It takes all the punches. Right. We don't seem to love it or care for it or give it the respect that we give the heart or, you know, the brain. It's like, it's like, oh, it's just skin, but it is it, it's. It's Your. It protects you. It's. It's everything.

A (38:43)

Exactly. That's. You see, that's. I'm loving this conversation because I feel like I'm. I'm talking to somebody who I don't have to argue with to say literally. You will be surprised. At least I have these conversations with people and they argue with me. They argue with me about this. I'm like, what don't you understand? The environment, the sunlight, the God knows what you're exposed to, the pollution, all of this is being kept out by one organ.

B (39:11)

It's Hercules. You know, it's Hercules.

A (39:13)

It's like literally atlas complex with your skin, you know?

B (39:17)

Yeah. And it's like been freezing and my son is like, oh, my hands are killing me. Yep, because your hands are out in this, in this weather and you're not protecting them and you're not caring for them. And you know what I mean? You're right. It's like we should be like, look so conscious and protective of this beautiful shield we've been given and take care of it. And to your point, let's. Let's feed it. We do things to measure all sorts of other parts of our health and our wellness, and we're conscious of all those kinds of things. And then to your point, what are we really doing for the skin on our bodies? Not much.

A (39:52)

Yeah, not much. Not much. I want to actually, I want to, because this is a longevity conversation and I really want to say this, this. And I. I don't know if you'd agree, but my take on longevity is that we need to stop approaching because you had brought this up. The systemic thing that you said earlier about like, we don't really know what's going on. I mean, I don't either. I'll be real with you. I don't know. If you take nad systemically, like, does it actually get delivered to all the organs? I don't know, because there's nobody that can claim that. Okay? I don't care how many years of medicine you have in your belt. But what I do know, and, and I've seen it in the lab, I've seen it in clinical practice. I do know that when you target treat organs, which is what drug delivery does, by the way, for anyone listening, like when drugs are developed, their vehicle is developed to go directly to the organ. It's developed to go to the exact receptors to the exact sites they're supposed to go. And so the entire principle of everything drug delivery related is. Is that. Okay, so keeping that in mind, why aren't we looking at longevity the same way where you have to. Now think about, okay, if I really want to use longevity products, I need to apply them directly in a way that's going to actually get to the organ that I'm trying to benefit. You don't have to inject everything into your bloodstream for it to work. There is topical. Topical drug delivery is a real thing. Topical delivery of other things is a real thing. Like the skin is the largest surface area that we have. Have to deliver things systemically into the body. So it actually makes more sense if you do go in that way during that route. That's where I get lost in the longevity conversation. I get very lost sometimes because there's a lot of biohackers out here saying things like, well, you need all these. Like, I have a 80 supplement stack. And I'm like, dude, I don't think you need all that. I don't think you need that. I think you need to figure out what you want to benefit in your body. And you got to figure out, how do I get to that organ.

B (41:47)

Yeah.

A (41:48)

So that's where I also very much support skin care for longevity because I think skin care is the most logical way for to. If you want longevity support for your skin, do it through skin care.

B (42:01)

Absolutely.

A (42:01)

Don't do it through supplements.

B (42:03)

And we know it doesn't. I mean, to your point, there hasn't been any clinical work done that proves at all it's nothing more than a marketing sort of game that people are playing here. And you're right. You said earlier millions of dollars. And I want to say that the company that Aramore is a brand. The company is New Frontier Bio, and I bet you they spent $15 million, $17 million at this point on research and development to get to where we are. So even big companies won't do that. They'll buy you, but they're not going to do it because there's too much risk in that. And to your point, there's a lot of. There's a lot of stuff out there and misinformation for financial gain. Really. I mean, I like infusions. I don't know if you do them. I've done them on and off for a while. And my mother was no longer with us, but unwell. And I just remember that there were moments where she would get a bag of saline and all it was hydration, but, man, it did a lot. It lifted her up for a couple of days. She got energy and glow and all that kind of Things. So I think part of this is do what makes you feel like you're in control of your destiny. Don't yuck somebody's yum. If that's your deal, take the 80 pills. I don't care. I mean, I can't do that and I wouldn't. But I think part of this, as well as breakthroughs in science, it's also don't wait till you're sick. Don't wait till you're. The signs of aging have already appeared. It's hard to retard those back. It really is. So I think, I don't know if saunas do anything or not or cold plunges, but I feel like, you know what, I'm making an effort, I'm reacting to A, it appeals to me. And B, I'm taking my aging and my wellness into my own hands. I wear my aura ring. I don't know what, but it makes me feel like I'm in control versus getting sick and saying, here, doctor, so and so now you're in control and what happens.

A (44:15)

Exactly. No, you know, that's a really interesting point. And I want to say this because for so many years the beauty industry has thrived on this idea of like consumer perception being the driver of sales. And we have heralded this idea of, yes, the consumer knows best and whatever the experience is, that's what we want to give them. Well, then why are we criticizing longevity then? Yeah, because aren't we supposed to feel like we're doing better for our body? Isn't that the whole point? You can't make a critique based on that argument if you've been for decades selling the same like other products based on the same principle. I've seen this come up actually quite a bit, Melissa, where people are saying, not with skincare, but like longevity. Right. In general, they're like, oh, you know, a lot of this stuff is not really. It's about how you feel. And we're selling things like for people's peace of mind. I'm like, okay, well that's all. Also longevity. If you feel better, if you're at the end of the day sleeping better at night, that's a good thing. So, yeah, I just, I completely, I mean, yeah, yeah, I mean, so it's a, it's a very double edged sword. That's my point. And I think that at the end of the day, like, we have to really kind of, we have to give it a chance. That's my, that's my whole thing. Give it a chance, guys.

B (45:24)

Yeah. And you just brought up a really interesting component of it right when, when I was growing the up, you know, Bill Clinton was president and they used to say he only slept four hours a night. And that made you tougher and stronger. And you were, if you could work, you know, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you were going to be more successful. We've learned that that is horrible for you. It is completely unhealthy, inappropriate, you know, all of those things. And that's like as science gets more educated and learns more about the balance of life, life, mental health, physical health, the recovery in those things that to your point, like, that's education. Yeah. That doesn't work.

A (46:15)

I agree. I completely agree. I think it's just, it's such a fascinating time right now. And I really genuinely, and I mean, I'm sure you see that because you see so much more on the, on the back end of beauty. You know, you, you really understand this industry. But just from my perspective as consumer, I can tell you, I really hope, and I am, in my opinion, I think in the next 10 years we're going to start looking back and seeing these 10 step routines we've been doing and be like, dang, I wish I'd bought that one product that I could have used every day. And, and I think it's to your point of like, don't wait till you start seeing signs of. Don't wait. You're going to, you need to do preventative care. You need to practice preventative care from the beginning, from the get go. And I think I would hate to see consumers 10 years down the line be like, well, I did all the lasers, I did all the aesthetic procedures, I did everything. But hey, I never invested in the right skin care though. I would hate for that to happen. And that's where I think, I think we're get going there because everybody's starting to reject things that just make so much sense scientifically that it just makes me wonder.

B (47:15)

I agree. And I think, I think again, you have a consumer in her mid-30s now who understands this and is just going to take action. The one thing the skin care industry has done really well over the course of the last 25 or 30 years is sun protection. Like we. You would never ever let your child go out without sunscreen ever, ever, ever. Now it would be like cigarette smoking. It's absolutely. It took a long time. I mean, I grew up in a generation that the Tanner, the Tanner you were the pret. You are, you know, and that was promoted. That was Encouraged because it was, again, commercially valuable to companies to promote that. And, you know, whether it was Hawaiian tropic or Bain de soleil or any of that crap, we do learn sometimes it takes longer than it should. But I think, to your point, we are right on the precipice right now. We've certainly done it with food. We've certainly done it with sun care. And I think, to your point, we are on the precipice. If industries don't muck it up, if they don't mislead for their own commercial gain, and things are real and they're proven and they're clinically differentiated and protected, I think there's a real shot. To your point.

A (48:43)

Yeah, no, I'm really excited to see that. I would love to. Love to see. I mean, to your point, like, I would love to see longevity skin care be treated the way we treat sunscreen at this point.

B (48:53)

Me too.

A (48:54)

I would love that. That would be awesome. And I think a lot of people would benefit from that, for real. But this has been. This has been so, so wonderful, Melissa. It's been so refreshing to talk to someone who's really, like, you get it. You really get it. And I've learned so much from you. So thank you so much for everything. And I really believe I'm gonna say this like. Like, I will shout this from the rooftops. I've said it before, years ago. I really believe in Rmore as a brand. I always have. And I think this brand is one of the most shining examples of where we should be headed in the science and the logic and the way it approaches skin health overall. If there are any dermatologists listening in, you guys need to, like, look deeper into the brand and start educating your patients for real, because longevity is. It's going to make your life easier. Easier. Like, as physicians, your life is going to be easier if your patients start following actual protocols that are founded in longevity science. So, yeah, I'm a huge believer in what you guys are doing. It's so awesome.

B (49:51)

Well, thank you so much, and I really appreciate the time.

A (49:53)

Thank you so much.

B (49:54)

Thank you so much.