Slate Money – "Financial Therapy" (May 30, 2020)

Host: Felix Salmon (Slate Podcasts)
Guests: Anna Shymansky (Breaking Views), Emily Peck (HuffPost), Amanda Clayman (Financial Therapist)

Overview

In this episode of Slate Money, the hosts are joined by financial therapist Amanda Clayman. The conversation focuses on the intense emotional impact of money, particularly during the economic and psychological upheaval caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. They explore how people’s relationships to money—saving, spending, debt, and familial influences—are challenged and revealed in times of crisis. Listener questions prompt discussion about penny-pinching, the burdens of student loans, and teaching kids about money, always with a blend of concrete financial advice and deep psychological insight.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Emotional Upheaval of the Pandemic

• Economic Anxiety Everywhere:
  • Felix notes the unprecedented economic uncertainty, from record unemployment to historic increases in personal savings.
  • Amanda explains the psychological toll:

    "Usually if we're going through something huge and overwhelming individually... there's still somewhere...where it seems like things are going on as normal. And right now, everywhere we look... there's nowhere to spot." (Amanda, 03:00)

  • The pervasiveness of the crisis makes emotional grounding more challenging but also universalizes the experience.
• Coping Strategies:
  • Amanda highlights the importance of focusing first on emotional safety before addressing concrete financial decisions:

    "We can always come back to a sort of... emotional grounding point. Like, we start to build that feeling of safety within ourselves." (Amanda, 04:14)

2. Money as Status, Identity, and Meaning

• Losing income is more than a financial loss—it can be an identity crisis.

  "If being making money, being a good provider... are your well worn tabs to self-esteem and identity, then that's an identity crisis. It's not just...how you're going to pay your bills." (Amanda, 07:16)

• The crisis exposes the ways people project meaning onto money and use it as a crutch for self-worth or security.

  "We project so much meaning onto money and when money's going well, we tend to not even be aware of the meaning side." (Amanda, 07:16)

3. Saving, Hoarding, and the Emotional Logic Behind “Irrational” Money Choices

• Felix observes the paradox of people both losing jobs and saving more money than ever.
• Amanda addresses the irrational yet emotionally understandable behavior of saving money while carrying credit card debt:

  "When we have money and the future is uncertain, we tend to hold on to that money. But we may be using other methods to meet our needs. People tend to use credit cards more often in order to preserve their savings." (Amanda, 09:45)

• Saving is not always “good” or “bad”—it must be evaluated in the context of emotional needs and relationships.
• Anna references the "paradox of thrift"—what makes sense for an individual may hurt the economy as a whole (12:47).
• Amanda pushes back on laying guilt on already stressed individuals:

  "We put a lot of burdens on the individual...I feel like somehow that is unfair...something's wrong systemically if we're saying to people, oh, by the way, you also have to take care of every small business in your community." (Amanda, 12:58)

4. Role of Government in Economic Security

• The group discusses how one-off payments (like stimulus checks) are more likely to be saved rather than spent.

  "If you want people to be spending that money, you don't make it a one off thing." (Felix, 16:19)

• Anna and Amanda note limitations in the social safety net and how COVID-19 highlights systemic issues in expecting individuals to shoulder all risks (15:15).

5. Listener Question: Penny Pinching & Emotional Inertia

• Retired couple with no debt still feels compelled to pinch pennies.
  • Amanda says habits that bring safety are hard to break, even when circumstances change:

    "The anxiety got him to a safe place...And now he's saying, I would like to be free of this feeling." (Amanda, 16:59)

  • She recommends “exposure therapy” for money—small acts of “splurging” to adjust emotional responses.
• Hosts share personal stories about unlearning rigid money habits.

6. Philanthropy and the Psychological Difficulty of Giving Away Money

• Felix describes how people who earn money are more comfortable giving it away than those who inherit it.

  "It's impossible for anyone to be so persuasive, barring any sort of like major crisis or shift, to be able to kind of like loosen up that normal tendency to want to hold on to that money." (Amanda, 25:09)

7. Financial Therapy’s Audience - For Whom and How?

• Emily asks: Whom does financial therapy serve if access is limited by financial distress?
  • Amanda describes the ethical and business dilemmas of financial therapy, the need for institutional support, and the challenges of making it accessible:

    "It's really tough to be a financial therapist and to be self-supporting...How to make money is, I think, a very practical and ethical question." (Amanda, 27:04)

  • Most wealth management firms don’t have dedicated financial therapists; jobs in the field are still a “hodgepodge.” (Amanda, 29:44)

8. Listener Question: The Emotional Weight of Debt (Especially Student Loans)

• A listener feels shame and failure about student loans despite financial stability.
• Amanda explains why student loan debt is emotionally heavier:

  "We are...put in a position where the price of entry into a good life...means a permanent financial obligation that there are very few ways to get out of." (Amanda, 33:56)

  • She notes themes of vulnerability, lack of agency, and family expectations.
  • The conversation examines how different debts (mortgages vs. student loans) are loaded with cultural and personal meaning.

9. Teaching Kids About Money: Is a “Healthy Attitude” Possible?

• Amanda is asked about fostering healthy money habits in children.
  • She reassures parents not to over-worry; kids’ futures are unknowable, and modeling openness and non-anxious decision-making is most valuable:

    "If the best thing we can teach our children is how to look at money without getting overwhelmed...that empowers and affirms their ability to sort of hold both realities." (Amanda, 38:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We project so much meaning onto money and when money's going well, we tend to not even be aware of the meaning side.”
  — Amanda Clayman, 07:16

• "The anxiety got him to a safe place...And now he's saying, I would like to be free of this feeling."
  — Amanda Clayman, 16:59

• "When we have money and the future is uncertain, we tend to hold on to that money. But we may be using other methods to meet our needs...we file away and...treat money differently depending on where it comes from."
  — Amanda Clayman, 09:45

• "You can't necessarily...know what lessons [your kids] are going to need...If the best thing that we can teach our children is how to look at money without getting overwhelmed...that empowers and affirms their ability to sort of hold both realities."
  — Amanda Clayman, 38:42

• "It's really tough to be a financial therapist and to be self-supporting...How to make money is, I think, a very practical and ethical question."
  — Amanda Clayman, 27:04

Important Segment Timestamps

• [04:04] Amanda on the pervasiveness of the crisis and the lack of a “fixed point” of normalcy
• [07:16] Money as identity and the psychological unraveling during financial loss
• [09:45] The emotional logic behind saving while accruing credit card debt
• [12:58] Amanda’s critique of making individuals responsible for economic recovery
• [16:56] Listener question on compulsive penny pinching, and Amanda’s therapeutic response
• [25:09] On the psychological blockage to giving away inherited or institutional wealth
• [27:04] The practical and ethical challenges of making financial therapy accessible
• [33:56] Why student loan debt carries special weight and shame
• [38:42] How to model healthy attitudes and openness around money for children

Numbers Round (Psychology of Money in Headlines and Culture)

• $360 million vs. $125 million - The Jenner family's exaggeration of Kylie Cosmetics’ revenues (44:09), illustrating the psychological drive to inflate financial achievements.
• 72% of workers rated their employer’s COVID-19 response as a B or higher (45:53)
• $563,500 - League minimum salary for Major League Baseball (47:10)
• $15.5 billion - Amount Americans spent on frozen food in the first 11 weeks of the pandemic, up 40% from a year earlier (48:26)

Tone and Style

• The episode is candid, analytical, and often empathetic, matching Amanda Clayman’s therapeutic approach.
• The tone is conversational, with vulnerability around personal money habits and a supportive dynamic among hosts.
• Occasional humor (e.g., Anna defending frozen vegetables) lightens heavy topics.

Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced, compassionate exploration of the intersection between financial behaviors and emotional well-being, especially in times of crisis. Through expert commentary, relatable listener questions, and honest reflections, “Financial Therapy” helps listeners recognize that money is never just about math—it’s deeply about meaning, safety, identity, and community.