Slate Money: "Four Lost Cities" (Feb 27, 2021) — Episode Summary

Overview

On this episode of Slate Money, hosts Felix Salmon and Emily Peck welcome Annalee Newitz, science journalist and author of Four Lost Cities: A Secret History of the Urban Age. Together, they explore the rise and fall of cities across millennia, the parallels between ancient urban life cycles and modern cities, the challenges of environmental and political instability, the impact of emergent technologies (from electric vehicles to the internet), and what it all means for the future of urban life.

Main Themes & Episode Flow

1. The Cycle of Urban Life: Rise, Fall, and Revival

• Cities as Living Systems: Annalee Newitz’s book focuses on the lifecycle of cities, showing how cities rise due to their attractions but often fall due to environmental stress and political instability. (01:58)

  • "It's really a book about the lifecycle of cities, why people move to cities in the first place..." — Annalee Newitz [01:58]

• Historical Lens: The conversation draws on examples from several cities, such as Çatalhöyük (Turkey), Cahokia (U.S.), Angkor (Cambodia), Pompeii, London, and Istanbul.

  • These case studies illustrate recurring conditions — infrastructure decay, abandonment, revitalization, and the crucial role of non-elites (workers, slaves, women) in the urban fabric [03:37, 06:44].

• Cities and Net Flow: Discussion of how cities grow when more people move in than out, and the reverse leads to decline; this is paralleled in modern cities facing pandemic-driven migration [02:47].

Notable Quote

“If you don’t have workers, you don’t have walls or roads or food... the elites seem to forget about that.” — Annalee Newitz [07:42]

2. Environmental Catastrophe, Political Instability, and "Sandcastle Depreciation"

• Sandcastle Depreciation: The metaphor describes the slow erosion of city stability due to repeated disasters — with each hit, recovery becomes more difficult [09:10].

• Texas and Houston as Modern Examples: Despite frequent, severe environmental disasters (waves of flooding, power grid failures), Texas and cities like Houston continue to grow, defying some historical patterns [09:53].

Memorable Moment

“You need much more than a five-sigma ice storm to stop the kind of growth that we’re seeing in Texas…” — Felix Salmon [10:00]

• Infrastructure and Willpower: The importance of political will in rebuilding and adapting to recurring disasters, and the debate over whether it’s worth continuously bailing out at-risk cities [11:26].

3. Lessons from Ancient Cities & Modern Implications

• Angkor’s Fall Wasn’t Immediate: Emphasizing that urban decline is often gradual; even after “elites” abandon cities (the “Ted Cruz fleeing Texas” analogy), ordinary people remain, sustain, and attempt to rebuild for decades or centuries [17:06].

  • “The tempo of abandonment is on the scale of centuries.” — Annalee Newitz [17:08]

• Urbanization Trends: Although more than 50% of the world’s population now lives in cities, Annalee challenges the idea that this is a permanent or sustainable state [19:20].

  • "Maybe we're actually looking at a kind of peak urbanization that will wind up leading to hundreds of years of deurbanization." — Annalee Newitz [20:40]

4. The Critical Role of Workers and Social Mobility

• Cities Thrive on Workers, Not Just Elites: The book and discussion underscore how the fate of cities is tied to the treatment and aspirations of their working populations [22:25].
  • Widening inequality (“Gini coefficient”) and the collapse of social mobility are key warning signs of impending urban decline [23:27].

Notable Exchange

“Social mobility is like the key to keeping your city alive and vibrant.” — Emily Peck [26:19]
“People come to the city if they have a hope of improving their lot in life.” — Felix Salmon [26:27]

5. Emergent (and Planned) Systems: Electric Vehicles as Urban Transformation

• Adoption of Electric Vehicles: The shift from gasoline to electric vehicles is explored as both an emergent and planned process — with historical analogies to city planning (random alleyways vs. super-planned grids) [26:58].
  • There’s debate about how standardized or fragmented EV infrastructure (like charging stations) will be, drawing parallels to VHS/Betamax and Apple’s walled gardens [32:52].

Quotes & Insights

“There's Teslas and then there's everyone else... you need charging stations, and there's this war, this kind of VHS vs. Betamax war on charging stations.” — Felix Salmon [31:54]

“If the government is doing it, it has to be interoperable technology.” — Annalee Newitz [38:35]

• Political Will and Regulation: The future of EV infrastructure may require government intervention — either mandating standards, funding interoperable stations, or breaking potential monopolies [39:04].

6. Future of Cities: Car-Free Urban Space and Pandemic-Driven Changes

• Urban Adaptation During COVID: Cities like New York and San Francisco made streets car-free, expanded outdoor dining, and created “pocket parks.” These changes, initially temporary, may become permanent due to community enthusiasm [42:53–44:23].
  • “Everyone loved the outdoor dining so much that it will never go back.” — Felix Salmon [43:23]

7. The Internet as a Mega-City: Is Cyberspace Doomed?

• Internet as Emergent Urban System: Annalee describes the internet as “the greatest emergent system the world has ever seen,” comparing its rapid, massive growth to proto-cities that eventually collapsed or were abandoned [44:39].

  • “We're at the very early stages of building a space… let’s call it cyberspace… that we’re trying to cram billions of people into…”
  • The "Neolithic dead end" — a period where early cities were abandoned, drawing a (partly tongue-in-cheek) warning for the internet’s future [45:02–48:01].

• Platform Decline & Abandonment Patterns: Mirroring city lifecycles, there are regular abandonments of internet platforms (MySpace, AOL, future Facebook?), and uncertainty about whether monopolies can, or should, endure [48:08–53:35].

Notable Quote

“AOL’s a great example… maybe the social space crumbles away and no one's using it anymore. But the name and the brand, like, linger. And they keep shaping us and influencing what we build next.” — Annalee Newitz [52:35]

8. Who Owns the Commons? The Role of Regulation

• Market vs. Public Ownership: The group reflects on whether the infrastructure for cars (charging stations) and the internet should be open, regulated commons — or controlled by dominant private companies (Tesla for cars, Facebook for the internet) [53:12].

• Regulation as Solution: Returning to the ancient theme — cities only endure with the right systems in place — Annalee argues for state intervention as vital for fair, sustainable infrastructure, both physical and digital [53:50–55:23].

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "If you don’t have workers, you don’t have walls or roads or food…" — Annalee Newitz [07:42]
• “Social mobility is like the key to keeping your city alive and vibrant.” — Emily Peck [26:19]
• "People come to the city if they have a hope of improving their lot in life." — Felix Salmon [26:27]
• “There's Teslas and then there's everyone else... and there's this war, this kind of VHS vs. Betamax war on charging stations.” — Felix Salmon [31:54]
• “If the government is doing it, it has to be interoperable technology.” — Annalee Newitz [38:35]
• "AOL’s a great example…maybe the social space crumbles away and no one's using it anymore. But the name and the brand, like, linger." — Annalee Newitz [52:35]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction, Book Overview: 00:10–01:58
• Why Study Lost Cities? 01:58–06:44
• How Cities Grow & Decline: 06:44–09:10
• Environmental Catastrophes & "Sandcastle Depreciation": 09:10–14:36
• Angkor, Timescales of Decline: 14:36–19:00
• Debate: Is Urbanization Peaking? 19:00–22:25
• Workers, Inequality, Social Mobility: 22:25–26:58
• Urban Planning Analogy, Electric Vehicle Infrastructure: 26:58–32:52
• Charging Standards, Role of Government: 32:52–39:40
• City Adaptations Post-COVID: 42:01–44:30
• Is the Internet a Doomed Mega-City? 44:39–53:50
• Should Tech and Infrastructure Be Public or Private? 53:12–55:23
• Numbers Round (Fun Facts): 55:23–59:58

Memorable Moments

• The analogy of city abandonment to the fleeting popularity of social networks (MySpace, Facebook, AOL) [48:01–53:35].
• The parallel between government regulation of gas pumps (leaded/unleaded) and potential electric vehicle charging standards [40:17–40:46].
• Annalee’s description of ancient Pompeii’s bar-to-population ratio (1 per 75 people): “it was a great place to be a barista, basically.” [57:08]

Conclusion

Slate Money’s "Four Lost Cities" episode serves up a rich, fascinating sweep through thousands of years of urban life, blending historical insight with pressing contemporary debates — from climate resilience and social mobility, to the future of transportation and the fate of the Internet. Annalee Newitz’s deep-dive into urban history becomes the lens for urgent questions about what it means to build, sustain, and sometimes let go of the environments — both physical and digital — that define modern life.