Slate Money: “Meet Me by the Fountain” (Oct 22, 2022)

Host: Felix Salmon
Guests: Emily Peck, Elizabeth Spiers, Alexandra Lange (architecture critic and author of Meet Me by the Fountain)
Theme: The Business, History, and Future of Shopping Malls

Episode Overview

In this episode, Felix Salmon and his co-hosts are joined by Alexandra Lange to discuss her new book about the history, cultural significance, and evolving fate of American shopping malls. The conversation dives deep into the architectural, economic, and social importance of malls, debunks the “death of the mall” narrative, explores the changing form and function of malls, and contemplates their future both in the U.S. and abroad.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Write a Book About Malls? (02:38)

• Alexandra Lange discusses the inspiration for her book, noting that the last major book on malls was published in the 1980s. She felt it was time to re-examine malls as they and their legacy reached historic status.
• Quote (03:20): “After about 30 years things become historic and that's when they become interesting … a lot of the last great wave of mall building is about 30 years old now.” – Alexandra Lange

2. The Architecture of Malls (03:41 & 04:19)

• Malls are designed to look plain or even "bland" from the outside (often just a “massive beige box”) because developers quickly realized curb appeal didn’t result in greater profits.
• Intricacies, effort, and investment went into the interiors—fountains, atriums, glass roofs—rather than exteriors.
• Quote (04:19): “There was absolutely no financial reason to do an interesting outside… all their money [went] inside.” – Alexandra Lange

3. Brand Control and Store Design (07:55)

• High-end malls, like North Park in Dallas, exert strict control over how tenants design their spaces, from signage rules to decor—though other malls are more relaxed.
• The aim is to avoid sensory overload and maintain visual order.
• Quote (09:48): “If you have every brand in your mall… doing the most, it's really going to be too much. Nobody's going to be able to see anything.” – Alexandra Lange

4. From Social Experiments to Cookie-Cutter Malls (11:09)

• Early malls were conceived as unique, community-oriented social experiments.
• In the 1990s, consolidation under large real estate investment trusts led to more standardized, “cookie-cutter” designs and tenant mixes.

5. Malls and Suburbanization (12:23)

• Malls grew alongside America’s postwar suburbs, designed at first as spaces for white housewives and children—filling a communal space void that government infrastructure didn’t address.
• Quote (13:13): “The government is paying for the roads and the houses, but they aren't paying for a space in between those two things... that's where the mall comes in.” – Alexandra Lange

6. The Gruen Transfer (13:47)

• Named for Victor Gruen, the mall’s “father,” it refers to the mental shift from shopping as an errand to shopping as pleasure and entertainment.
• Memorable explanation (14:12): “It's that moment where your mind kind of takes leave of your rational, economic self and you're just wandering around the mall for the pleasure of it.” – Alexandra Lange

7. Malls as Town Squares (15:28)

• Malls replaced traditional public squares for suburbanites, offering spaces to see and be seen—not just for shopping, but for social connection.
• Quote (15:28): “That natural inclination [to gather] had no natural outlet in the suburbs ... the mall was the capitalist answer to filling that need.” – Felix Salmon

8. The Mall and Teen Culture (18:01)

• The mall became a key location for teens, offering a space away from adults to socialize but also a site of tension between young people and mall management.
• Pop culture cemented this role, with films like Clueless making malls iconic scenes of youth life.
• Discussion of how the decline or transformation of the mall mirrors generational and technological shifts.
• Quote (19:57): “The town square is online now if you're a teenager.” – Elizabeth Spiers

9. The Rise of Lifestyle Centers and Fancy Malls (21:16)

• Newer “lifestyle centers” (outdoor/indoor malls with higher-end stores) replaced many old enclosed malls, especially in temperate climates.
• Malls continually rebrand to appear new, even if fundamentally similar.

10. Outlet Malls & Airport Malls (22:58)

• Outlets are generally outdoors due to cost savings and a different ownership model.
• Airport malls, while similarly organized, develop out of unique contexts focused on travel, not included in Lange’s book due to their distinct evolution.

11. Entertainment Malls and the Jerde Transfer (24:33)

• Architect Jon Jerde in the 1980s pioneered the shift from shopping mall to entertainment complexes (e.g., Mall of America), making the mall a full-blown tourist destination.
• Quote (25:10): “Now, the mall is not about shopping, but it's about entertainment. And I'm gonna put an entire theme park in the middle of my mall.” – Alexandra Lange

12. The “Death of the Mall” Is Overstated (26:31)

• Media fascination with “dead malls” (ruins photography, “ruin porn”) exaggerates the decline; many malls continue to thrive, particularly high-end ones.
• Malls adapt, sometimes becoming multicultural hubs for new suburban populations, e.g. Plaza Fiesta in Atlanta.

13. The Future: Malls, Mixed-Use, and Redevelopment (30:13)

• Zoning changes (like proposed New Jersey legislation) may unlock mixed-use development on former mall or office spaces—addressing suburban change, pedestrian needs, and housing shortages.
• There are parallels between dying malls and dying office parks and opportunities for both to adapt.

14. International Lessons: Asian and Vertical Malls (34:51)

• Malls in Asia are more urban, vertical, and connected to public transport—providing useful models as U.S. cities aim for less car dependence.
• In places like Seoul and Hong Kong, malls are integrated with subway stations and other uses (hotels, offices, residences).

15. The Cautionary Tale of Hudson Yards (39:14)

• Discusses the widely criticized high-end mall at Hudson Yards in Manhattan as an example of how even huge investments can fail when they ignore both design best practices and intangible “mall magic.”
• Quote (39:19): “It is terribly designed… there is no central atrium, no fountain, there's nowhere to meet... you never feel like there’s a there there.” – Alexandra Lange

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the interior focus of malls:
  “Making the outsides of their boxes interesting did not pay… they put all their money inside to the beautiful fountains and atriums and glass roofs…”
  – Alexandra Lange (04:19)

• The Gruen transfer, explained:
  “You're at the mall and you have your list of errands, but you find that you've kind of forgotten about the list and you're just browsing.”
  – Alexandra Lange (14:45)

• On malls as social infrastructure:
  “The mall was the capitalist answer to filling that need. It was a way to make money out of filling that need.”
  – Felix Salmon (16:20)

• On Hudson Yards as a design failure:
  “You never feel like you've gotten to the good part.”
  – Alexandra Lange (40:38)

• Joyful mall memories:
  “I just had a completely authentic joy reaction. And everyone I know who's been there has had the same reaction.”
  – Alexandra Lange on North Park in Dallas (44:07)

• Felix’s mall confession:
  “We used to go to Gaylord's Indian Restaurant in the Stanford Shopping Centre. And it was... my favorite thing in the world.”
  – Felix Salmon (45:23)

Important Timestamps

• 02:38 – Why write a book about malls; the lack of recent scholarship
• 03:41 – Mall architecture: outside vs. inside
• 07:55 – Mall owner control over tenant store design
• 11:09 – Cookie-cutter malls and the 1990s shift
• 12:23 – Malls, suburbanization, and the rise of the mall as a woman/child-centric space
• 13:47 – The Gruen transfer
• 18:01 – Malls and teen culture
• 21:16 – Lifestyle centers and the "new mall"
• 26:31 – “Dead malls,” media narratives, and evolutionary adaptation
• 30:13 – Zoning reform and mixed-use redevelopment
• 34:51 – International/high-end mall models: Asia and Latin America
• 39:14 – Hudson Yards and the possibility of failed mega-malls
• 44:07 – The ineffable joy of some great malls
• 45:23 – Felix’s personal mall memory

Tone & Style

The conversation is insightful, enthusiastic, and often witty, with the guests’ and hosts’ personal experiences and warmth shining through—mixing serious urbanism and business insight with pop culture and nostalgia.

Takeaways for the Mall-Curious

• Malls are more than just retail—they are complex, evolving social and architectural phenomena.
• Reports of their demise are exaggerated; adaptation and reinvention are ongoing.
• The best malls successfully blend design, community, and commerce—while failed examples offer lessons in what (not) to do.
• As urban needs and demographics change, malls may yet play a new role—as mixed-use, multi-generational hubs or as globalized, transit-integrated venues.
• Ultimately, the human need for gathering spaces persists—and whether online or offline, cities will keep reinventing the “town square.”