Money on the Mind: To Have Kids or Not to Have Kids

Summary

Slate Money — "Money on the Mind: To Have Kids or Not to Have Kids"

Date: October 30, 2025
Host: Felix Salmon (Slate Money)
Guest: Anna Sale (Death, Sex & Money)

---

Episode Overview

This special crossover episode brings together Felix Salmon of Slate Money and Anna Sale of Death, Sex & Money—two Slate podcasts with “Money” in the title—for a candid discussion about one of the most emotionally and financially charged decisions: whether or not to have children. They weave together personal experience, financial reality, and cultural observations to examine the costs (monetary and otherwise) of raising children, the societal narrative around having kids, and what it means for future generations.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Intersecting Worlds: Money, Feelings, and Family

• Felix highlights that Slate Money rarely discusses personal finance or emotions, whereas Anna’s show thrives on them:

  "We don't really have feelings on Slate Money. We are rational robots. And now I'm entering this Jacuzzi with you full of emotions and floaty bits."
  — Felix Salmon (01:00)

• Anna appreciates how Slate Money helps frame her “floaty feelings” in an economic context:

  "...you help me kind of hook it on scaffolding to help me understand where I am and how I’m situated to other people in the economy."
  — Anna Sale (02:15)

2. Are Kids a Luxury? The Real Cost of Parenthood

• Felix raises the common portrayal of children as an “expensive luxury,” noting public concern over affordability and declining birth rates (02:50).

• Anna responds with personal anecdotes—her jewelry as metaphor for delayed spending due to child-rearing expenses (04:20):

  "We were married for a long time before it felt like we could do something that was, like, special special...I just want...when I thought about, like, how is my life shaped by the fact that I'm raising two kids?..."
  — Anna Sale (06:17)

• On trying to budget for a baby:

  "I did try to, like, spreadsheet out what a baby was gonna cost...that didn’t really give me an accurate number."
  — Anna Sale (07:26)

• On financial anxiety and hidden costs:

  "It was really, really scary and overwhelming to have so many cost, new costs coming at me at once."
  — Anna Sale (09:41)

3. Choices — How Money Shapes Family Size

• Anna is open that money limited her family’s size:

  "We actually said over and over again when we would daydream about a third kid, well, we couldn't. One of us would have to quit our jobs. And that's because of the cost of childcare."
  — Anna Sale (12:41)

• Felix notes the Manhattan “three-kid flex”:

  "As someone who lives in Manhattan, I have long believed that the biggest flex you can do in Manhattan is to have three kids."
  — Felix Salmon (10:43)

• Anna’s candid admission:

  "If money was no object, you would have like four kids by now...Yes. Yeah."
  — Anna Sale (11:28)

• The astronomical cost of childcare (Bay Area example):

  "Childcare where I live to send my kid to preschool cost over $2,000 a month. $2,500 a month."
  — Anna Sale (13:44)

4. Children as Assets or Liabilities? Multi-Generational Realities

• Felix probes the idea that, later in life, kids become a kind of “pension plan” (15:00–16:31).

• Anna agrees, watching friends care for elderly parents, and highlights the invaluable support adult children provide:

  "Adult children show up really, I think, add an incredible sense of...a cushion as age—if you have the privilege of age."
  — Anna Sale (17:05)

• On digital-age challenges:

  "The scam...don't reply to that text...That is a very important role of an adult child."
  — Anna Sale (17:55)

5. Intentional Childlessness: Priorities, Freedom, and Legacy

• Felix discusses his decision not to have kids:

  "Partly it was selfish...I was actually quite happy with my priorities."
  — Felix Salmon (21:25)

• The trade-offs:

  "It’s not just money, it’s time...both of my co-hosts on Slate Money, parents...basically neither of them had left the country in over a decade."
  — Felix Salmon (22:20)

• Anna notes the different kinds of creativity and engagement possible without kids.

6. Aging Without Children: Who Will Care For Me?

• Felix’s concern:

  "I'm placing no faith in my nieces and nephews to be able to look after me when I'm old and doddery..."
  — Felix Salmon (23:35)

• They banter about whether AI or robots could provide elderly care, agreeing that empathy and physical assistance are irreplaceable (24:12–25:18).

7. Children, the Economy, and the Future Workforce

• Anna wonders if societal emphasis on having kids as an economic necessity is justified; what happens as AI disrupts work?

  "...do you think that's—I should continue to assume that in an AI future?"
  — Anna Sale (28:05)

• Felix offers a big-picture, Bayesian prediction: we can’t know if the fundamental link between population, work, and prosperity will change in the coming decades, but it hasn’t yet (28:09).

8. Leaving a Legacy: Beyond Biological Inheritance

• Felix reflects on consumption vs. inheritance:

  "...all doing this very selfless thing which is like having kids...I am now that future generation. And what am I doing? I’m...spending it on foie gras at a Manhattan restaurant and what the hell is the point?"
  — Felix Salmon (29:02)

• Both agree that supporting the arts and building community can be another form of legacy.

• Beautiful moment:

  "Every time we buy art, we have a dinner party for the artist…and it feels love. It's a great way of just saying, you know, thank you."
  — Felix Salmon (31:18)

• Anna:

  "...When I think of, like, what we're all doing this for, it's like relational care."
  — Anna Sale (31:53)

9. Social Worlds: Kids, Friendships, and Changing Community

• Felix observes the social insulation of parenthood, how friendships narrow into circles based around children (32:27–33:05).
• They discuss how evolving family structures change social visibility (e.g., LGBTQ+ families becoming more mainstream in community life) (33:05–33:43).

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Your children ate your income.”
  — Felix Salmon (06:50)

• “The two best days in your life are the day you buy your child and the day you sell your child. Wait, hang on.”
  — Felix Salmon (07:18) [Joking about yachts vs. kids]

• “I love parenting. I find my kids to add, like, immeasurable joy to my life. And I feel so glad that I'm a parent.”
  — Anna Sale (11:31)

• “I think that that's a...when I think of, like, what we're all doing this for, it’s like relational care.”
  — Anna Sale (31:53)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:34 — Introduction and podcast crossover banter
• 02:50–07:26 — Are kids an expensive luxury? Anna’s jewelry metaphor and household budgeting reality
• 09:41 — Anna on the financial anxiety after first child
• 10:43–12:41 — Family size, money, and “the Manhattan flex” of multiple kids
• 13:44 — Detailed costs of child care
• 15:00–17:55 — The long-term “investment” in children as future caretakers
• 21:25 — Felix on intentional childlessness and lifestyle choices
• 23:35–25:18 — Aging without children—AI, caretaking, and what matters most in elder care
• 28:05 — Will AI change the economics of reproduction and work?
• 31:18 — Art, legacy, and community-building for the childless
• 32:27–33:53 — How kids re-shape adult friendships and community, including for queer families

---

Summary Takeaways

• Having children can shape both financial and emotional lives in deep, perpetual ways—beyond even what many expect.
• The affordability of child-rearing impacts not just the number of children families choose to have, but also how parents envision their futures, their communities, and their legacy.
• Choosing not to have children is not just a financial question, but one of values, priorities, and what matters most for personal fulfillment and social contribution.
• Caring for future generations can take many forms: parenthood, creative patronage, building relationships, or community support—all are valid legacies.
• The episode balances practical realities with philosophical reflections and offers compassion and validation for whichever path listeners choose.

---

Final Note:
This thoughtful, unscripted conversation is rich in both laughter and honesty, offering listeners a nuanced look at money, family, and meaning—whether you’re calculating the cost of diapers or dinner parties.

Transcript

[Apple Card Announcer]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. My favorite travel hack Easy. It's using Apple Card. It's great knowing that every time I dine out, buy souvenirs or pay my hotel bill using my Apple Card, I'm actually earning up to 3% daily cash back. So if you're like me and love to travel, then apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail].

[Felix Salmon]

Hello and welcome to a very special episode of. Well, crossover episode of Slate Money with Death Sex and Money, the two Slate podcasts that have money in the title.

[Anna Sale]

Bringing the death and specs to Money.

[Felix Salmon]

I feel I'm very happy about this because. Because, well, I should introduce myself. I am Felix Salmon of Slate Money, which is a kind blank slate title where you can put anything in if it's vaguely money related. I am here with the one and only Anna Sale of Death, Sex and Money, which I feel like is a much more descriptive title reel.

[Anna Sale]

Really it's descriptive, but maybe you could think of it as a more vast blank slate because you can throw even more into that big bucket of death sex or money and. Or money.

[Apple Card Announcer]

Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

And so I feel like where we oversect is obviously money. But the reason I was super excited to talk to you is because one of the things we don't talk about on Slate Money that often, well, is A, personal finance and B, just emotions. I'm a, I'm a cold, I'm a cold fish, Anna.

[Anna Sale]

Oh, I'm going to make you squirm, Felix.

[Felix Salmon]

You're going to make me squirm. And yeah, like we don't really have feelings on Slate Money. We are, we are, are rational robots. And now I'm entering this, this like Jacuzzi with you full of emotions and floaty bits. And you're gonna hold my hand and make sure that I'm comfortable.

[Anna Sale]

I am. And you're gonna hold my hand because what I love about Slate Money is it. I feel like it's a way to listen to, understanding how I am fitting into systems, how the floaty feelings that I spend a lot of time thinking about, you help me kind of hook it on scaffolding to help me understand where I am and how I situated to other people in the economy. So I appreciate the expertise you're bringing.

[Felix Salmon]

Thank you. Thank you. And so what we, what I thought we could talk about today is short people, or specifically children, not like adult short people.

[Apple Card Announcer]

Like they're Adults, we can leave them.

[Felix Salmon]

To full grown people, not non fully grown people. People get very emotional about this whole subject of children. But one of the many emotions that is associated with children rather than childhood is this terrifying fear of, oh my God, how expensive is this thing? And what am I letting myself in for? And if you read all of the literature about, you know, bellyaching about declining birth rates across most of the planet, inevitably somewhere in the, you know, two and a half thousand word article about Korea or whatever is going to be a line about one of the reasons that people aren't having as many children is because either they can't afford to or they don't think they can afford to. That, that I don't. I'm not entirely convinced this is true, but it certainly feels true. It has like, truthiness that children are this like expensive luxury. Do you think they're an expensive luxury?

[Anna Sale]

Do I think they're an expensive luxury? Well, I have a, I have a visual prompt to show you what my life is like with two elementary age children.

[Felix Salmon]

Since we are on YouTube, we can, we can see the visual prompt. This is, this is a visual podcast, people. If you are just listening without watching, you are missing out because Anna's going to show me.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah, I guess this is like maybe a labored metaphor, but I was like, oh, what do I want to wear for my conversation with Slate Money? I got to class it up, you know, and I thought, so right now, this is a necklace that I'm wearing from my dear husband. It's like the first, like a nice, beautiful little pearl. It's the first kind of nice piece of jewelry he ever bought me, which he bought me seven years into our marriage. And then so that kind of gives you a sense of like, we were married for a long time before it felt like we could do something that was like, special special. And then there's this.

[Felix Salmon]

Did he buy you an engagement ring?

[Anna Sale]

He did not buy me an engagement ring. We were walking home from the park and decided, let's just get married. And so then we had to start saving our money for a wedding. So we didn't buy any jewels.

[Felix Salmon]

Did you buy wedding bands?

[Anna Sale]

We did, but you know what? We did? Here's my wedding band. This gold band. This gold band. We, we melted down gold that was from different family members and we made each other.

[Felix Salmon]

Well, that is very romantic family.

[Anna Sale]

We made each other wedding rings from gold that was already around. Okay, my other necklace. You get to choose my fashion. This is a very blingy cost. I thought this is kind of British looking to me.

[Felix Salmon]

Okay. You have to be watching this on YouTube. I. I literally just. Gosh, that is. That is, like, Elizabeth Taylor quality necklace going on right here.

[Anna Sale]

I thought it looked kind of regal. Like, it made me look kind of like, you know. And so for the Brit, I brought something that reminded me of what I would wear if I were a queen.

[Felix Salmon]

It's giving Cleopatra.

[Anna Sale]

Okay. So. But. But here is Susa's. Nice. But I want you to know this is, like, a costume jewelry piece that I got in South Carolina, and it's made of, like, probably very, like, shiny, but cheap metal and glass.

[Felix Salmon]

Don't let it touch your skin for too long, otherwise your skin will turn green.

[Anna Sale]

So this is. I just want. When I thought about, like, how is my life shaped by the fact that I'm raising two kids? It means that for, you know, I first became a mom at age 35. So at a time when maybe if you don't become a parent, you're beginning to. If you've had a string of, you know, good breaks, maybe you're getting to the point in your career where you have some discretionary income. Like, that just got. That just isn't. Isn't present when you have babies.

[Felix Salmon]

Your children ate your income.

[Anna Sale]

They did. And then some. And so I think that, to go back to your question about our children, a luxury item. No, I don't think we should characterize them as that.

[Felix Salmon]

They're a little bit too smelly to be electrified.

[Anna Sale]

Yes. But they're like a yacht. They take a lot of upkeep. Expensive upkeep, but they.

[Felix Salmon]

The two best days in your life are the day you buy your child and the day you sell your child. Wait, hang on.

[Anna Sale]

But do I think that they are. How was money related to my feeling like I was ready to become a mom? It wasn't so much. I mean, I did try to, like, spreadsheet out what a baby was gonna cost. I was like, what is a diaper? How many diapers a week? Da, da, da. You know, I tried to do that. That didn't really give me an accurate number when I was pregnant, but I did really want to feel like I was standing on slightly solid ground as I took on this responsibility, and I think they're lost.

[Felix Salmon]

Do you know anyone who has underestimated the cost of a kid?

[Anna Sale]

Oh, I believe everyone probably underestimates particular.

[Felix Salmon]

Sorry, sorry. I don't mean that. I mean, who is overestimated? Do you know anyone who's, like, had a kid and, oh, this is much cheaper than I thought it would be cheaper.

[Anna Sale]

I think that there are families and ways to arrange your community of care where you don't have the sticker shock that a family does. If you are a family where both caregivers, parents are working, outsource, outsource all.

[Felix Salmon]

Of the childcare to grandparents, this is a great way of saving money.

[Anna Sale]

Yes. And if you're. If you have the luck of healthy grandparents that have the energy to do it, that's a way to save money. In my case, what I found was from when I had my first child at 35. I had a second baby two and a half years later. And it was also a time when my husband and I were buying our house. We were trying to figure out how to afford a couch. We were having to pay first for childcare. We did a nanny for the first baby. Then when the second one came along, we were. There were a few years where we were paying for preschool and infant care. I mean, it was insane. It was an insane.

[Felix Salmon]

When did you buy the minivan?

[Anna Sale]

Well, we. Let's see. We did. We did get a different car during the COVID era where we were just like, screw it, we can't just have a sedan. We need to have room for the dogs. Because we needed to be fully mobile as a family. We felt like to escape wherever we were at any time.

[Felix Salmon]

You do have like the quintessential nuclear family of like mom and dad and two kids and the dog.

[Anna Sale]

And you need to fit. Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

And fit the dogs and the kids and the parents all into one vehicle.

[Anna Sale]

And it was a huge. I think I'm still recovering from the insane amount of financial anxiety that I had. No, I just did not know how. I mean, it was. It was really scary. It was really, really scary and overwhelming to have so many cost, new costs coming at me at once.

[Felix Salmon]

So when. So, like two years into kid one, are you like, how are you feeling about kid two at that point? Do you feel like you've learned something and yet you're just going ahead with it anyway?

[Anna Sale]

Kid one, I love how I. I'm picturing these little, like, specimens in a lab. Kid two. I mean, the choice to do kid two was just a leap of faith. And that came not from any kind of economic calc and instead from just a deep, deep feeling that I wanted, if I could, to have kids who were siblings. I wanted to have more than one kid.

[Felix Salmon]

As someone who lives in Manhattan, I have long believed that the biggest flex you can do in Manhattan is to have three Kids.

[Anna Sale]

Oh, yeah. Or sometimes you run into those families with four. And I have a hard time even talking to those moms at elementary school pickup because it's interesting. I have this mix of how on earth it's like they're an alien. And I have a very intense sense of envy. Like, I wish that choice could have been available to us and it was money that made it not so.

[Felix Salmon]

So. Wow. Do you. Would you. So. So in a way it's true, or at least truthy, that if money was no object, you would have like four kids by now.

[Anna Sale]

Yes. Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah.

[Anna Sale]

I would love to have a big family. I love being a mom. I love parenting. I find my kids to add, like, immeasurable joy to my life. And I feel so glad that I'm a parent. I also.

[Felix Salmon]

This is so refreshing. After however many years of co hosting a podcast with Emily Peck, it's just like, oh, my God, you won't believe what they did this week.

[Anna Sale]

Well, yes. Just tell Emily I have such charming children who never. Yeah, they're never annoying.

[Felix Salmon]

Never fight.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah. I guess I just want to make sure it's clear. I live in the Bay Area. I live in one of the most.

[Felix Salmon]

Famously cheap place to live.

[Anna Sale]

Yes. So I definitely think that this is all a consequence of choices that I've made. The kind of work that I went into, the kind of place we decided to settle in. I think there's different realities in America and different sorts of communities, but that's the case for us. That two. Absolutely. We actually said over and over again when we would daydream about a third kid, well, we couldn't. One of us would have to quit our jobs. And that's because of the cost of childcare. Like, we could not. We could not do a thing.

[Felix Salmon]

I feel like this always puzzles me a little bit just because, I mean, I know child care is expensive, but if you are a middle class, full time earner, like you are earning more even after taxes than you are spending on childcare.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah. But at what cost? Right. Like, there's a certain point where you're like, how much money is going out the door for childcare? And then like, that adds a whole lot of logistical weight on everybody. If you're trying to figure out how to arrange childcare, you're trying to figure out. And it also can make keeping a job that has a lot of obligations outside of the home difficult. Right. Even when you have childcare, there's all sorts of things that you need flexibility around. And I. I'm not sure I Think there are plenty of earners. I mean, childcare where I live to send my kid to Preschool cost over $2,000 a month. $2,500 a month. So it's, it's a lot of money. And then if you have two kids in pre, it's at a certain point it's like, is it less? Should. Should one of the parents just stay home and save that money and provide care that's not that you don't have to pay for?

[Apple Card Announcer]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. Anyone who has traveled internationally knows that the logistics of a trip can be challenging. That's why I use Apple Card for basically everything I buy when I travel, which, if you've listened to this show before, you know, is a lot. It's easy to use and it's designed to take advantage of the power of iPhone. I think I spent 10 weeks in Europe this summer and every day, multiple times a day, I was using my Apple card on my iPhone with Apple Pay. So if you're like me and love to travel, you may want an Apple card. Apply in the Wallet app today and discover how Apple cards can power your journey. Subject to credit approval, Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail] so we've.

[Felix Salmon]

Been talking a lot about kids as sort of financial dreams, things that are expensive. And I can see from, you know, because I'm a bit older than you and I have friends who have kids in their 20s. Like, it doesn't really end, you know, even when they leave home, like you are still paying money to the kids. It goes on a long time. Obviously there are college expenses which are based into the college system where if you are applying to college and your parents are middle class and have some Money, you are a 100 expected to extract money from those parents. Like the parents are paying for that somehow. So there's a lot of upfront outlays involved for the first 25 years or so of having a child, which is a long time. And if you have more than one, and if you have more than one child, then it would be like 30 years. And so I hate to even sort of, I hesitate to even bring this up, but is there not also an offset? Like as someone who doesn't have kids, I'm like, there are enormous financial and other benefits to having adult children when you are old. I mean, they are a little bit of a pension plan in that they might not be paying you money, but they will be doing other things that are Financially very valuable to you.

[Anna Sale]

I love that we have skipped from pre K childcare all the way to when your child can be basically a pension plan.

[Felix Salmon]

You know, exactly. Basically when your child is 55 and you're 80, or in your case 90, then at that point your kid is doing all manner of things that are so valuable to you that it's almost impossible to replace with money. It's almost impossible to buy.

[Anna Sale]

Yes, as somebody who is watching dear friends caregive for aging parents, it is just, just, just all the tasks that it requires that would be just really hard to figure out how to find someone to pay them. You know, whether it's, whether it's coordinating medical appointments or just helping with tech questions, you know, when new devices come into the household, you know, all these sorts of things that adult children show up really, I think add an incredible sense of, you know, a cushion as, as age. If you have the privilege of age.

[Felix Salmon]

Preventing your parent from just getting scammed by pig butchering text messages.

[Anna Sale]

Yes, I, I actually think that the scam. Don't reply to that text and don't answer that phone call. And no, you don't need to sign up for that book club and give them their credit, your credit card. That is a very important role of an adult child. Yes. I think that that is something a measure of maybe how I would put it is, you know, for me, when I think about what I am earning money for since I became a parent, it's just kind of like I'm earning money to make sure we're stable. I'm earning money to, you know, there's a little bit of money to share with charitable gifts and things like that. But for the most part it is, I am earning money to set up my kids to launch into adulthood and anything extra, I'm hoping it's going to allow them to navigate and maneuver through whatever the economy is like in America in the 2000-30s and 2000-40s.

[Felix Salmon]

I need to ask you this kind of loaded and rude question.

[Anna Sale]

Oh, do it.

[Felix Salmon]

But like, are you like moving towards that cliched point where you are living vicariously through your kids?

[Anna Sale]

Oh, I think so. I wouldn't say it like that. It's not like I look at my kids and I'm like, I really hope you become, become the stadium selling out country star that I wish I could have been. That's like the alternate life path when I think about, I don't think of it that way, but I think of it like it's almost like I feel really Clear that I'm part of a flow of ancestors. Right. Like, that's kind of how I think of it. Like, it is my responsibility during these adulthood years of mine to try to steward, you know, kind of like, you know, some of it's resources and some of it's like, who are the. Who are we citizens and what are our values and how do we participate in our community and how am I instilling?

[Felix Salmon]

This is definitely, you know, part of the rhetoric that we're seeing quite a lot of from the likes of J.D. vance and Elon Musk, which is basically your job on this planet is to get the human race to continue and like, have go out there and have babies and like support humanity that way. Because, you know, people like Felix Hamlin who don't have any babies, they're like literally just mooching off the planet and giving nothing back.

[Anna Sale]

Did you hear that when I said what I thought about parents? No. Okay.

[Felix Salmon]

I mean, well, I mean, so, well, yes and no. Like, so I feel like there is a narrow version of that which is less to do with humanity and like, you know, existential questions around whether humanity. But it's still there in terms of like, I come from an infinitely long line of people, you know, my parents, grandparents, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandparents. There are millions of them. And I don't want to be the end of that line and I want to continue that tradition. And so it maybe is more directly genealogical rather than like a species based thing, but they are related.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah, yeah. And for you, if I may ask, was your choice not to become a parent intentional?

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah.

[Anna Sale]

Okay.

[Felix Salmon]

Because. Because, I mean, yeah, I. Partly it was selfish. As someone who, you know, lives in Manhattan and likes spending money on food and art and, you know, all of the other myriad travel, all of these things that one spends money on. Not only is there a direct cost to having children that then reduces your disposable income to spend money on anything else, but. Yeah, I think you put it right that all of your priorities wind up changing. And I was actually quite happy with my priorities.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah. And I think when I look at my childless friends, I think it's kind of cool what you get to do that I have not gotten to do. When you do have more discretionary income as a grownup, you can find ways of creatively expressing and exploring.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah. It's not just money. It's time, you know. So I remember we were doing a series of travel episodes on Slate Money and both of my co hosts on Slate Money, parents And they mentioned that, like, basically neither of them had left the country in over a decade. And I'm like, that's wild. Like, I. I don't think I've ever gone more than a few months without, you know, leaving whatever country I'm living in. You know, it's just like. It's just part of my life.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

It would feel very odd to me to be like, oh, yeah, I've just been living in the United States for the past 10 years and haven't seen any other bit of the planet.

[Anna Sale]

Well, not just seen, but had, like, relational encounters. So there's, like, a good to that as well. You are doing something for our society by having relationships with people in other countries.

[Felix Salmon]

Plus, I'm an immigrant, so, you know, I have obviously more direct connection to other countries. But, yeah.

[Anna Sale]

Do you feel like you don't have a living and breathing pension plan in children as you look ahead?

[Felix Salmon]

I totally do. Like, I could. I could, like, you know, I. I'm. I'm placing no faith in my nieces and nephews to be able to look after me when I'm old and doddery, you know, And I'm not so delusional as to believe that I will be entirely compos mentis for my entire life. Like, at some point, I am going to need people to look after me, and I have no idea who those people are going to be. Do you think maybe, like, Sam Altman's robot will be able to do that for me?

[Anna Sale]

I don't think so.

[Felix Salmon]

I don't think not.

[Anna Sale]

Chatbots can do caregiving, right? You know, maybe. Maybe the chatbot can help you figure out how to get that weird thing off your phone that you don't know where it came from. But when it comes to care, the.

[Felix Salmon]

The most important thing that adults do when they're looking after their parents is saying no. You know, and the chat bots are very bad at saying no, the chat. But this is the problem with all the people who are using chatbots as therapy is that the, you know, I'm on there and chatgpt saying, I'm not crazy, thinking that all of these voices are talking to me, right? And the chatbot is like, no, you're not crazy. This is perfectly sensible. Because their job is to sort of just reinforce. That's how they communicate. And so, yeah, if I'm like, this book club is awesome, right? The chatbot is going to be like, yeah, give me a credit card number.

[Anna Sale]

Well, and I'm not sure the most important thing a caregiver does is say no. I think the most important thing a caregiver does is like gives you an arm to hold onto when you're getting out of the car.

[Felix Salmon]

That's also very useful.

[Anna Sale]

Yes. Can I ask you, when I think about AI and my kids and it's something I'm thinking about a lot, A lot, a lot. Just sort of the economy that we're careening towards and the job market, I don't know, it just feels so, like I just, it seems like I don't understand what world I'm raising them to enter into. Do you think this is a Slate money expert question? Like part of. I think the reason why people like J.D. vance talk about procreation as some kind of patriotic duty. It's because the workforce needs workers. And these are, you know, this is how we're going to have economic growth. There's, there tends to be like an economic theory along with the idea that that's the way to live.

[Felix Salmon]

I mean the best way to raise GDP per capita is to just cut the number of capitas. Right? That boom. But yeah, that's, that's, that doesn't work. That doesn't scale very well.

[Anna Sale]

Cut the number of capitas. Is that true? Like, because I, when I, I mean.

[Felix Salmon]

But it kind of.

[Anna Sale]

How will Social Security work?

[Felix Salmon]

Exactly. If you look at Japan like that's a really good example of what happens when you have a shrinking population. And GDP per capita is doing quite well in Japan because population is shrinking. But you're absolutely right, the number of working adults who are supporting the elderly, it's just like that ratio is getting smaller and smaller and eventually you wind up with the system where on some level as a society you face the same issue that I'm facing as a childless individual. I don't have enough children to support me because my number of children to support me is zero. But then as a society, you just don't have enough working age adults to support the number of retired adults that exist. And then what do you do? Historically in rich societies, the argument, the answer has always been or it's going to have to be some form of immigration. But again, that doesn't scale. Like once, once, you know, once we reach that point in China, which we're going to reach very quickly if we're not already there. China, there's not enough countries on the planet for China to import all of the people it needs to look after its elderly. Population boom.

[Anna Sale]

And does the idea of working age adults being an important economic indicator, economic predictor that presumes that those working age adults have the opportunity to have a wage earning job.

[Felix Salmon]

Right? I mean, yeah, technically speaking the important thing is like working adults rather than working age adults, but you kind of assume that to a first approximation those two numbers are pretty highly correlated.

[Anna Sale]

And do you think that's I should continue to assume that in an AI future?

[Felix Salmon]

Now you're asking me to predict the AI future? That has always been the case for the past thousand years. And so my general heuristic being a good Bayesian, is that if it's been true for the past thousand years, it's probably going to be true for the next 70 years. But it is possible that some singularity will happen and then we'll all just wind up being eaten by Skynet.

[Anna Sale]

Can I ask you, when you think about what you're making money for beyond pleasure, like things to do, hobbies and.

[Felix Salmon]

Things, is there anything beyond pleasure?

[Anna Sale]

I guess I think like as we look at like 70 years from now or a thousand years from now, do you think not having kids, like, do you think of a sort of like inheritance of what comes after you, of what you want your money to do?

[Felix Salmon]

So yeah, that, I mean, I think there's an interesting subtext there which is like, do I consider myself to be the legacy of my grandparents and my great grandparents and my great great grandparents all doing this very selfless thing which is like having kids and then at the end of that long line of people having kids for the sake of future generations, I am now that future generation. And what am I doing? I'm you know, spending it on foie gras at a Manhattan restaurant and what the hell is the point? You know, I'm just written it all away.

[Anna Sale]

That's not very kind of self compassionate.

[Felix Salmon]

I do, I do think there are ways in which I am trying to make the world a better place. And I certainly give away a bunch of money and try to be mindful of how I'm spending money. But at the same time I'm not going to pretend that there isn't a bunch of stuff that is just purely selfish. You know, I'm like, I'm enjoying going to this opera, so I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars on opera tickets.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah, well, no, but then you're creating, you're, you're supporting an arts community that otherwise it is true.

[Felix Salmon]

I do, yeah. I mean I live in an art filled apartment and, and all of the art that I have bought has been bought from the artist and I am supporting those artists by buying that art, I'm not going out to auction houses and buying it from rich people who are selling art. I'm buying it from people who make money by selling art. And I think that is an important part of supporting that community, for sure. And that is something on some level. It is a zero sum game. I get to go out and buy paintings because I don't have to buy diapers.

[Anna Sale]

It's true. I would love to figure out what kind of art I might buy if I had more of an art budget. And that's just something that is either I have to wait for or is just not going to be in the cards for me. Yeah. So I hope you. I hope you invite people to your place to show off your beautiful art.

[Felix Salmon]

We do. And I'll tell you one thing which is totally off topic, but I will mention it just because I think it's one of the. One of the things which people don't do enough, which is that every time we buy an art, we have a dinner party for the artist. And so we invite them over and we ask them who we. We ask them who they would like to invite, and they get to invite a few other people. And we all have a dinner and it's all in honor of the artist. And we have the artist above that. We have the art above the dinner table. And. Yeah. And it feels love. It's a great way of just saying, you know, thank you.

[Anna Sale]

Well, I would argue that that's part of like a kind of. This is going to sound lofty, but like an inheritance of what you're doing because you spent that money on that art. You're inviting that artist into your home. You're connecting who they know with people, you know, and it's creating a network that just is bigger than if you hadn't done anything to begin with. That's going to perhaps, you know, change that artist's work or career in some way. That's. That's good. Like, I. I don't know. I think that that's a. When I think of, like, what we're all doing this for, it's like relational care.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah. And so I have a bunch of relationships. I have a bunch of friends. You know, I'm not friends with my kids. Friends, parents. Because I don't have any kids. Friends who have parents. But that doesn't mean, like, it's amazing how the degree to which people with kids wind up hanging out with their kids, friends, parents. It is quite astonishing.

[Anna Sale]

Yes, I know. We sort of disappear from our friendships with people without kids, to our detriment. And also, we disappear from our friendships with people who do have kids because there's just less capacity.

[Felix Salmon]

I do think also, like, weirdly, this is part of why up until very recently, queer Americans have kind of been invisible because they tended not to have kids. And so, like, the straight breeder majority would, like, just not see them because they weren't their kids, friends, parents. But now that your kids, friends, parents are much more likely to be gay, suddenly that is a way for the whole gay universe to start becoming much more incorporated into quotidian family life. And I think that's wonderful.

[Anna Sale]

Well, and maybe when they were invisible to the breeders, as you call us, they were busy making culture because they had time. Like, they were the vanguard of making culture for us.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah, like, what's gonna happen to Broadway when all of the gays have kids, man?

[Anna Sale]

That's the root of the crisis, the economic crisis.

[Apple Card Announcer]

That is.

[Felix Salmon]

That is the root of the many gay families.

[Anna Sale]

Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

Come on, gays, stop having kids. We need you to support the culture instead.

[Anna Sale]

Well, I think. I don't know where else we could go from there.

[Felix Salmon]

I think we're just going to leave it there. We are going to have two more episodes of this little miniseries, and I am very hopeful that we're going to be able to rope in my financial advisor to talk a little bit about how she just deals emotionally with people with money. Because this is just a deep, deep well of potential conversation. But for the time being, congratulations to everyone who doesn't have kids. Even more congratulations to everyone who does have kids. You're amazing. And we will be back with even more Slate money and death saves the money.

[Anna Sale]

Thank you, Felix. It was a pleasure to be with you.

[Felix Salmon]

And. Yeah, and thank you also. I should thank also Shayna Roth and Jasmine Marley and the whole Slate team, because we are on YouTube, people. This is like, we have made the leap.

[Anna Sale]

You need to see my beautiful costume jewelry.

[Felix Salmon]

Just take it off once we finish recording because otherwise you're gonna have green skin. Sam.