Slate Money: "Money Talks: Don't Be Evil-ish"

Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Elizabeth Spiers (standing in for Felix Salmon)
Guest: Tim Wu, professor at Columbia Law, former White House advisor, author of The Age of Extraction

Episode Overview

This episode of Slate Money is a deep dive into Tim Wu’s new book, The Age of Extraction: How Tech Platforms Conquered the Economy and Threaten Our Future Prosperity. Host Elizabeth Spires and Wu discuss the evolution of tech platforms from a source of optimism and creativity to engines of economic extraction and monopolistic power. They explore why this transformation happened, how it affects industries beyond tech (like health care and housing), and what this means for the broader economy, democracy, and prospects for reform. The conversation balances a nuanced historical perspective, critique of current corporate and tech power, and calls for optimism rooted in regulation and anti-monopoly movements.

Defining the Tech Platform and Extraction Economy

[03:02–05:57]

• Definition of Platform: Wu explains that unlike traditional businesses that sell products or services, platforms are spaces that “host” economic activity, e.g., bringing buyers and sellers together—like a digital town square.

  • “A platform is different. It's the kind of business that hosts things, you know, brings together buyers and sellers… The idea of them being powerful and extractive is, frankly, something new.” – Tim Wu [03:02]

• Evolution into Extraction: Wu traces the origins to IBM’s System/360 and then Microsoft under Bill Gates, who “really mastered the extractive model.”

  • “You could invite people to lunch and have them for dinner. Hey, everybody, this is a great platform… and then sooner or later, somehow Microsoft's the only one who makes money.” – Tim Wu [04:13]

Is Extraction Inevitable? Breaking Down the Shareholder Model

[05:15–09:32]

• Not Inevitable: Wu notes examples like Wikipedia, a major platform that avoided becoming extractive due to different structures.

  • “It is possible a different way, but it requires different structures.” – Tim Wu [05:56]

• Shareholder Primacy: Wu argues extraction is amplified by the pressure of being a public company beholden to shareholders.

  • “I think it's completely a function of that... Google is the best example that were very idealistic... Then they're like, oh, we're going to have a regular IPO… I think they've broken every single promise in that letter as to what they were going to do for shareholders.” – Tim Wu [06:09, 06:57]

• Memorable Metaphor:

  • “You had a great factoid in there about Google moving their don’t be evil slogan from the front of the employee handbook to the back, which felt like a metaphor.” – Elizabeth Spiers [07:09]
  • “It’s still there somewhere in the fine print, I guess… with an asterisk that says don’t be evil-ish.” – Tim Wu [07:19–07:24]

• Corporate Morality: Wu recalls that formerly, even for-profits like pharma acted on non-cash motivations, which has eroded.

  • “The pharmaceutical industry used to be very ethical… I think we've just let it all become this model of the more you take, you find any edge you can... these are almost like… machines designed to extract maximum value.” [08:12–09:32]

Platforms Beyond Tech: The Spread of Extractive Models

[09:32–11:39]

• Wu expands the platform concept to industries like healthcare and housing.
• Private equity and shareholder value drive the corrosion of industry values.
  • “Part of it is the idea that we can get the output we want merely by a model of shareholder maximization… there's a weakening of some of the groups... I think it is making us poorer, which is the irony of it as a country to be too focused on a narrow set of values.” [10:11–11:39]

Monopoly, Antitrust, and the Government’s Role

[11:39–16:27]

• Structural Power of Monopolies:

  • “A monopoly business is undisciplined and so it has extractive power almost by definition and it doesn't have anyone to stop it. I mean, let's say Amazon's misbehaving, taking too much… if you have a well defended monopoly, then you can get away with stuff.” – Tim Wu [11:50]

• Antitrust as Remedy: Monopoly power is hard to disrupt without government intervention—through antitrust, regulation, or public duties.

  • “Government's the only entity powerful enough to displace or to discipline certain companies, but it can use other forces...they also imposed other duties on them. Early version of net neutrality.” [12:21–13:05]

• Current Political Climate: Enforcement is inconsistent; both Trump and Biden have at times talked tough on monopolies, but actions are mixed or even contradictory.

  • “The Trump administration is wildly inconsistent. Occasionally they're… big trust busting… But then the cases keep going.” – Tim Wu [14:25]

• Dark Side of Consolidation:

  • Wu calls out meat processing as “maybe the most evil industry out there” due to farmer impoverishment, animal cruelty, and environmental damage. [13:44–14:27]

The Road from Platform Monopoly to Authoritarianism

[20:27–22:28]

• Wu’s Five-Step Cycle: Monopolization → Extraction → Mass Resentment → Democratic Failure → Authoritarian Response.

  • “There are so many countries that have gone through exactly this cycle and end up with most frequently some kind of revolution… So we're pretty far in that process.” – Tim Wu [21:06]

• Resentment and Systemic Unfairness: Wu outlines that much of today's mass resentment stems from a sense that “the system is fixed against them.” [21:06]

• Redistribution – Power Over Wealth: Wu clarifies he advocates not simple cash transfers but “power redistribution” and decentralized capitalism.

  • “I'm kind of more into the progressive era, whether it's breakup of monopolies, empowering of the parties who bargain… I believe in decentralized capitalism.” – Tim Wu [22:45–23:28]

Housing and Healthcare as Platforms: The Case of Invitation Homes

[23:28–26:28]

• Invitation Homes: Wu details how this corporate landlord, formed after the Great Recession, uses tech and scale to extract more from tenants, raising rents and service charges while cutting costs and repairs.

  • “To me, it's a big difference between individual landlords and a company which owns a ton of stuff and… systematically is cheap on and stingy about repairs... that's the business model. I think it has caused a lot of human suffering, to be honest.” – Tim Wu [24:49–25:23]

• Customer Experience: Big companies are less responsive, more exploitative, and innovation is often in “making you pay some weird fee…making it hard to leave.” [25:53–26:28]

  • “Much more of the innovation in our economy, unfortunately in so many sectors has nothing to do with making better products. But like making you pay some weird fee… That is the nature of our economy right now.” – Tim Wu [25:53–26:28]

State of Antitrust and the Lina Khan Era

[27:02–29:08]

• Discussion of Biden-era reforms, many now rolled back, such as “war on junk fees,” noncompete bans, and easier subscription cancellation.

  • “They’ve unwound a lot of it. Honestly, this administration is wildly inconsistent… All this stuff trying to help people is gone or is halfway gone… which is, I think, really tragic.” – Tim Wu [27:02]

• Lina Khan’s Role: Khan, now on the NYC mayoral transition team, symbolizes the anti-monopoly movement’s influence and provides channel for talented reformers.

  • “Someone who's suspicious of private equity, suspicious of private power… a channel for a lot of good… and a… symbol.” – Tim Wu [28:07–28:46]

The Tale of Google and Waze: Antitrust Blind Spots

[29:08–31:44]

• The Waze Acquisition: Wu recounts the story of Google buying competitor Waze and the bafflingly poor antitrust rationale used to allow it.

  • “Waze is what you use when you want to figure out how to get somewhere, and Google is what you use when you want to figure out where you are. So they're not really competing.” – Tim Wu parodying the explanation [31:14]

• Critique:

  • “Sometimes it can take a lot of advanced training to come up with totally ridiculous [explanations].” – Tim Wu [31:16]

The Future of AI and Platform Consolidation

[32:03–35:41]

• Open Question: Will AI challenge, or just reinforce, existing tech monopolies?

• Industry Power: Wu is concerned about the “inflated by circular investments” feeling in AI, the “group think” among a handful of companies, and the lack of genuine economic diversification.

  • “There is a sensation… like that Wile E. Coyote thing, where you feel like there's this hundred billion dollar bill that gets passed around… everything's inflated by circular investments.” – Tim Wu [33:59]
  • “There's basically like five companies with huge cash reserves. So we're going to throw all our money into that, which almost feels... like central planning.” [34:25]

• Decision-Making: Wu is uneasy about the religious fervor and lack of skepticism among big tech leaders, especially around AGI.

  • “If you ask a lot of people in Silicon Valley, why are you investing hundreds of billion dollars? And they'll be like, well, we need to achieve AGI so the singularity takes effect... I've listened to Marc Andreessen lately. He's become like a raving madman or like a religious figure...” – Tim Wu [35:41, 36:09]

Tech Utopianism, Accelerationism, and Dangers of Centralization

[36:48–38:51]

• From Utopianism to Nihilism: The old Internet utopia was about widespread prosperity and democracy; now there's a quasi-religious fixation on technological transcendence, even at the risk of apocalypse.

  • “Maybe I like the old utopia better than the new one… The new one is we're going to build a machine smarter than humanity. Yeah, that's going to wipe us out, but it's extremely important that we get there.” – Tim Wu [36:48–37:04]
  • Critique of Andreessen’s “techno-optimism manifesto,” wrapped up with “sophomoric Nietzsche” and dreams of “immortal superhuman billionaires.” – [38:03]

• Tech’s Relationship with Government: Concerns expressed about Silicon Valley now cozying up to government, e.g., as defense contractors and political favorites.

  • “Silicon Valley has gotten way too close to government… being favorites of President Trump… All that stuff is new and I think bad for industry.” [38:51]

Is There Room for Hope? Guardrails Against Authoritarian Drift

[39:06–41:06]

• American Resistance: Wu finds optimism in America’s cyclical resistance to unaccountable power and revival of anti-monopoly movements.

  • “There is a resistance to monopoly which is kind of baked into the American psyche and I think it's activated… the idea that… a completely toxically capitalistic society works well, I think is on the out.” – Tim Wu [39:06]

• Tech’s Bones Are Good:

  • “We built some good bones but some crappy additions on top of them.” – Tim Wu [39:55]

Policy Remedies and Self-Policing Illusions

[40:33–41:06]

• Role of Government: Wu doubts platforms will self-police and advocates a return to “basic utility like rules… net neutrality, anti-monopoly.”
  • “I think we have to give up on that [idea of self-policing]… I feel like it's time to get back to like basic utility-like rules for some of the platforms. That's where I end up.” – Tim Wu [40:49]

Book Series and Final Thoughts

[41:06–41:42]

• The new book is the third in Wu’s trilogy, covering the evolution of US information industries, and their current platform era.
• Jokes about whether there will be a fourth book, “Post-Singularity: Oh Well.”
  • “Maybe the fourth book is Post-Singularity and it’s just titled ‘Oh well’.” – Elizabeth Spiers [41:41]

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Extraction is really a function of the modern US economy and financial interests and the idea that a business model consists of getting a lot of power and then taking everything you can.” – Tim Wu [05:46]
• “I was one of these guys who was like, man, these guys are really different. This is really cool… You look at that now, I guess, 20 years later. I think they've broken every single promise in that letter.” – Tim Wu (on Google) [06:49]
• “A monopoly business is undisciplined and so it has extractive power almost by definition and it doesn't have anyone to stop it.” – Tim Wu [11:50]
• “We've just installed giant extraction machines on top of [the good technology].” – Tim Wu [39:55]

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:02] What is a platform?
• [05:15] Is extraction inevitable?
• [07:09] The "don't be evil" moment
• [09:32] Platform logic in housing and healthcare
• [11:39] Monopolies and discipline
• [13:44] Antitrust in today’s politics
• [20:27] Five-step monopoly-to-authoritarianism paradigm
• [23:58] Invitation Homes and the rental market
• [27:02] Lina Khan, the CFPB, and regulatory rollback
• [29:08] Google’s Waze acquisition and antitrust blindness
• [32:03] Can AI disrupt big tech?
• [33:59] The fragility of the tech economy
• [35:41] Quasi-religious tech optimism and Silicon Valley
• [39:06] What gives Tim Wu hope?
• [40:33] Why platforms won’t self-police
• [41:41] On writing a fourth book

Tone and Notable Moments

• The conversation mixes Tim Wu’s scholarly rigor with sardonic wit and relatable anecdotes.
• Frequent humor about tech’s broken promises—e.g., Google's "don’t be evil-ish," and the “industrial policy of Mao Zedong” now alive in Silicon Valley.
• Memorable industry stories (the Waze deal, meat processing scandal) illustrate larger themes of power, extraction, and regulatory capture.
• The episode ends with qualified hope—structural problems need structural fixes, but American resistance to monopoly is real and historically potent.

This summary provides a comprehensive guide to the episode’s argument, highlights, and context—useful for listeners and non-listeners alike.