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- [00:00]
A
This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card takes privacy. Seriously, it's your card, your info, your business. So if your credit card isn't Apple Card, maybe it should be subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more@applecard.com hello, and welcome to Sleep Money Travel. I'm Felix Salmon. I'm here with Emily Peck of Axios.
- [00:35]
B
Hello. Hello.
- [00:37]
A
I'm here with Elizabeth Spires of the New York Times.
- [00:41]
C
Hello.
- [00:42]
A
We are going to talk about the amount of money that people are willing to pay for. Basically, just like not being stuck in lines at airports, which is not just in airports, it's also on airplanes. This whole idea came to me when I was checking out when I was buying a flight on Aer Lingus, and they were like, select your seat. And all of the seats were the same except for the exit row. But if you ignore the exit row, all of the seats were the same. And the price of the seats ranged quite dramatically according to how close they were to the front of the plane. The ones near the front are like $65. The ones at the back are free. It doesn't even matter whether it's a middle seat or not. People really want to be at the front of the pet plane. And the reason people want to be at the front of the plane, obviously, is that they get off the plane more quickly. They don't have to stand in the aisle waiting for the people in front of them to deplane before they get to D plane. Most people will probably wind up leaving the airport at basically the same time anyway because they're going to have to wait to get their bag. So it's not a question of, like, getting to their destination more quickly. It's just a question of I want to feel like I'm moving and not just standing still. This is a variant of the idea that a lot of people would prefer to spend a little bit more time driving in a car along back roads and spend more time getting to their destination than sitting in traffic on a freeway where they just don't move at all for 10 minutes, even if their total journey is shorter. And the super interesting thing about the travel, you know, instance of this is that it's monetized in a soup in, like, a bunch of different ways. Emily, I know that you have done a deep dive on Slate. What's next? TBD about Clear, which basically monetizes the idea that if you don't want to stand in the TSA preview check line, then you can stand in a clear line or no clear line and you can run to the front of the pre check line, which people will apparently pay like $200 a year for the privilege of not standing in the pre check line. There's the paying for your seats. There's, you know, all of the other sort of bits and pieces around. Like in the UK for years and years we've had this thing called Fast Pass where airlines will allow you to sort of skip various lines if you're in first class or otherwise a favored passenger. What do we think about this, this sort of monetization of not standing in line?
- [03:33]
B
It's really complicated with the, with the clear situation. It was more like it wasn't fair because this is like the government is making you go through security and this is sort of something that's mandated and something that should, is for the public good. And you shouldn't be able to pay to sort of get around that.
- [03:53]
A
But you're not paying to get around it. You're just paying to get there more quickly.
- [03:57]
B
Right. Setting that aside because of how I don't remember the episode very well and didn't prepare, I think that it's kind of crazy how much people are willing to pay just to get off the plane faster. I think you're onto something where it's like, and I, I understand this because I did this the other day. There was traffic on the highway. I was driving my kid back from, from work and there was traffic on the highway. And I'm like, let's go the long way. And the long way was definitely longer than it would have been to just sit in the traffic by like double. It was 30 minutes the long way versus probably 15 to 20 sitting in the traffic. And it was still somehow more satisfying. It's just really frustrating to sit and wait when you know you could be going. And that's never more true than when the plane has landed yet you're not off the plane yet. It's like you're right there.
- [04:50]
A
Like minutes on airplanes are not the same. If you are spending a minute on an airplane that is flying at 450 miles an hour getting you from A to B, that is A. And if you're like watching a movie or asleep or something, that is a short minute.
- [05:05]
B
Yes.
- [05:06]
A
If you are sitting on the tarmac waiting to take off and going nowhere, that is like a medium to long minute. If you are sitting on the tarmac after you have already arrived at your destination but you have not yet got to the gate, that is the longest minute that humanity has ever invented.
- [05:27]
C
Yeah, I think it's just we have all developed very low tolerance for tedious things. And I think it's all because our dopamine is totally rewired by doom scrolling and the Internet. But as a result, you know people, that's the reason why you take the scenic route when it's a little bit longer, completely irrationally, it's less boring for you.
- [05:47]
A
Well, I don't think it's irrational. I think, I think it's rational. I think it's rational. But I am interested in the way in which airlines and airports have discovered that this is a, you know, a profit center for them. This is something they can monetize.
- [06:04]
B
It's, it's pretty smart. I mean, do you object to it? I, I feel like in the example of Clear, which I don't remember, as.
- [06:11]
A
A good, like neoliberal capitalist, I thoroughly approve of this. Like if there's something that people are willing to pay for, then charge them for it. And that's the best way. That's the economically efficient and optimal way of allocating a scarce good, which is like seats near the front of the plane or whatever. If some people value them more than other people than seats in the back of the plane, then you should charge more for those seats.
- [06:31]
C
Well, it's also people considering convenience a kind of luxury. You have fast passes at Disneyland and amusement parks where you pay up to be able to cut the line at Space Mountain or whatever.
- [06:42]
A
I also think that in the travel specific context, one of the things that's happening is that business class prices skew the perceived value of everything else. So if you're in economy and you're paying $300 for a plane ticket, and the person two rows ahead of you in business is paying $3,000 for a plane ticket, then suddenly you're like, well, at that point paying an extra 50 bucks to be close to the front of the plane is kind of nothing compared to the cost that it would cost me to be in business.
- [07:19]
C
I think it's also like stress reduction. If you have a connection to make or something like that, then you do kind of want to be toward the front of the plane.
- [07:27]
B
There is something really horrendous sometimes about flying coach and the humiliation of being, and I've done this many times of being in like the last or second to last row of the plane, like right near the bathroom and the bathroom line. Like it's just like it takes away a little stitch of humanity, I think, from you. Like you're all squooshed in there and, you know, you see all the many, many rows of seats in front of you. And yeah, it makes sense that people would pay to avoid that experience if they could because it is a degrading experience beyond just the, the frustration of having to wait while the plane.
- [08:07]
A
No, I. So I think this is actually a key insight. I remember sitting at the back of the plane with my wife once and being. Getting an earful of like, how did we wind up in these terrible seats? And. And like. And it's not just the amount of time it takes to get off the plane after you land. There's also something about just the experience of sitting in those seats for however many hours, staring at the many backs of heads and backs of seats in front of you is less pleasant for reasons that I find difficult to articulate. But it really. You do feel like the further you are towards the back, the lower you are in the sort of pecking order.
- [08:48]
B
It feels like being in a race and you're at the back of the race rather than in the lead.
- [08:53]
A
Everyone always wants to be at the front. Right, right, right.
- [08:56]
C
That's also, you know, they board people in first class first so that you have to take a humiliating walk through the nicer seats to get to your crappy seat, the back of the plane. And it's just, you know, it's marketing. They're forcing you to kind of experience the class difference.
- [09:14]
A
But this is also the weird thing, right? They board people on first class first because the people in first class want to be able to board first. It's a good question, right? This is my question. And the people in first class are free to not board at the beginning if they don't want to. Right. They can hang out in their lounge and then just like, go to the gate at the last minute, which a bunch of, like, frequent flyers do do that, right? They're like, why do I want to sit in the seat for any longer than I have to? I'm going to hang out with my gin and tonic and then I'm going to go to the plane at the last minute. And that is a relatively common thing that first class passengers do. But most first class passengers do exactly what Elizabeth says and board at the very beginning, the minute they're allowed to board before anyone else. And Elizabeth, why do you think that is?
- [10:04]
C
I don't know. I mean, maybe they just want to get themselves settled, you know, right before takeoff. I have no idea.
- [10:11]
A
Because it kind of cuts against this perceived notion of, like, Wanting to get off the plane quickly, Right? If you want to minimize the amount of time you spend on the plane, then you would want to board last. You wouldn't want to board first.
- [10:24]
B
Boarding last sucks. The feeling of waiting, you know, this like you get.
- [10:30]
A
I kind of like it, actually.
- [10:31]
B
No, you get to the gate and they're like, group A, you know, they're like, you know, babies and whatever.
- [10:37]
A
Go.
- [10:37]
B
And then they're like, group A. And you look at your ticket, you're like, damn it, not group A. And then the group B, group C. And you're like, when are they gonna pick me? And it just feels like you're a straggler and you just want to get on the plane. Like, it's just like, I want to, you know, Again, you want to be first. You don't want to.
- [10:54]
C
Well, it sucks if you need to put a bag in the overhead bin, but if you're in first or business, there's always room. It seems like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no.
- [11:02]
B
I want to sit first class and, and like, give people snooty looks as they come by to go to the back of the bus, you know.
- [11:09]
A
Oh, have you ever done that, though? It's terrible.
- [11:13]
B
Give people snooty looks.
- [11:14]
A
Like if you, if you are in first class, I mean, this is totally a reason to board last if you're in first class. If you are in first class and you board first and then all of these people kind of look at you and go, who the fuck are you sitting in first class as they pass you on the way to the shitty bucket seats in the back of the plane? Like, that is not a nice experience.
- [11:35]
B
I understand. I guess I would like to have the experience. I understand that it may feel badly in some way because of the hate that you receive. And that is why the rich live in gated communities, et cetera.
- [11:50]
A
This is why everyone. You should always just fly on all business class airlines. Isn't that expensive? No. All business class airlines are cheaper than per business class seat than normal airlines.
- [12:05]
B
Got it. Aren't airlines, like, probably more than any other industry sort of like on their game when it comes to monetizing these kinds of things, like monetizing ticket prices and seating prices and figuring out how to sort of.
- [12:22]
A
And basically monetizing the idea of relative status. Right? It's all about relative status and people want to feel better than other people. And if you, if you're at the back of the plane, you feel worse than other people and you're willing to pay to feel better. Than other people. And absolutely, and it must be said we. I really should mention here that most flyers are sensible, normal people who realize how ridiculous this is and do not pay the extra. Right. The expensive extra seats near the front are a minority of the seats. And the basic economy fares that don't even allow you to pick your seats are very popular because you get to save money. And who doesn't mind saving money? So most flyers I think are quite sensible about this and they're like, I get to the exact same destination as the person in first class who's paying 100 times more than me. And so I'm getting a bargain and I do not need to play dumb status games with a bunch of people I will never see again. But there is a substantial minority of people who the airlines have worked out they can extract this money from for basically nothing. It costs them nothing to like charge extra for the certain seats. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Did you know Apple Card is designed to help you pay off your balance faster with smart payment suggestions? And because fees don't help you, Apple Card doesn't have any. So if your credit card isn't Apple Card, maybe it should be subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Variable APRs range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 Terms and more at applecard.com how many.
- [14:17]
C
People in first do you think are paying full price versus people who have just racked up so many airline miles that they get upgraded every time?
- [14:25]
A
It depends very much whether like what airline you're on and whether it's domestic or international. But on international I think most people are paying.
- [14:33]
B
Do you think that restaurants will ever cotton onto a strategy like this? Like everyone knows.
- [14:38]
A
Oh my God. Such a good, such a good question. And we've talked about this on the pod. I can't remember if it might possibly have predated your arrival on onto the shores of Slate money, but there was a company called TOC that was famous for charging different amounts for reservations at different times or saying that like Saturday reservations cost more than Monday reservations and there are sort of secondary markets and restaurant reservations where clearly some reservations are more valuable than others. And every year or so someone rediscovers this fact that people want to eat on certain nights and at certain times of day more than other places. And so therefore there should be a price differential. And then every year there's some someone writing an article about it saying this doesn't seem fair. And then someone else talks about blue plate specials. And like the discourse around charging different prices at different times for restaurants is a very stale discourse at this point, but it is very closely related to, to this question of, you know, charging for being able to jump the line at Precheck.
- [15:47]
B
But I'm talking about charging more for better seats in the restaurant. Like, everyone wants the booth or the corner table or whatever, or the table that's not right next to the bathroom or whatever. Charge more for that. Charge more for the restaurant real estate, as you charge more for the plane real estate.
- [16:04]
A
That's what I. Yeah, because like, this is, this is standard in concerts. Right. You know, it's all about which seat. You know, a good seat can cost 10 times more than a cheap seat. So why, why not apply the same logic to the grill room at the Four Seasons?
- [16:19]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [16:20]
C
Well, I think informally that probably does happen. If you have big spenders who come back and, you know, the staff knows who they are, they allocate the best seats to those people.
- [16:29]
B
They put you right in the middle so everyone can see your fancy self or whatever. Yes.
- [16:33]
A
Oh, my God. I was, I was just at a fancy restaurant on the Upper east side and a bunch of well heeled, you know, slightly older Upper east side diners came in and was seated at the restaurant right in the middle and complained more than once to the maitre d about being sat at the restaurant at the table in the middle and were like, we want the booth around the outside. Everyone wants to be around the outside. People don't actually like being in the middle.
- [17:05]
B
You want to, you always want to be in the.
- [17:06]
C
You want to be able to. People watch. And it's hard when you're in the middle of the room. Like, you can't just turn around and.
- [17:13]
B
Plus you feel like you're on stage, I think, and everyone's like looking at you or something when they're not. They're looking at the food or whatever or the famous person in the restaurant. In the case of a fancy restaurant.
- [17:22]
A
Yeah, it's true. These four people were definitely on stage and everyone was looking at them and going, oh my God, I can't believe they're complaining about their table allocation.
- [17:30]
B
But yeah, I mean, I, I would expect more algorithmic pricing or the kind of pricing we're seeing on the plane in other places. Right. Because of AI do I see.
- [17:42]
A
I think the reason we don't see it in other places is just because there's something there's this kind of air of unreality when it comes to travel where money ceases to have any meaning. I think this helps to explain why there are so many luxury goods stores in airports. You know, why? Why in every single crappy pan airport in a fourth tier city do you see a whole row of Prada and Gucci and Hermes and Valentino and everything? It's because, like people are just. Their mind is in a different zone and money doesn't have the same meaning that it otherwise does. And they're like, oh, it's only $125 to get a seat closer to the front of the plane. Sure, why not?
- [18:27]
B
Spending a lot. Why not? Yeah, yeah, I buy that.
- [18:31]
A
It's like the lack of oxygen just lose. You lose your, I don't know, fiscal faculties. Have we therefore come to the conclusion that all of this on the consumer level is kind of irrational and that if we were true Zen enlightened folks, we would never pay these surcharges?
- [18:47]
B
I think your time is your money. I think if you can spend money to save time, that's generally good because your time is valuable and precious on this earth.
- [18:59]
A
But to my point, right, let's say you're checking your bag and like the time you leave the airport is going to be the same whether or not wherever on the plane you sit. So the question then becomes, how much do you value being at the baggage reclaim waiting for your bag to come out rather than on the plane waiting to deplane.
- [19:23]
B
It's like, which is more uncomfortable. And I think judging by the demeanor of people when you land in an airport, especially if it's one of the New York City airports where everyone stands up immediately even though you know it's going to be another 10 minutes and they're all just standing up and it's just like the anxiety in the air is thick around you and it's so uncomfortable that it is probably better to wait at the bag claim than it is to stand there in the crowd.
- [19:50]
A
Oh, for sure. And by the way, like, my whole thing is I am totally someone who stands up immediately to the point at which I really, really hate being in any window or middle seat. And I would rather be in an aisle seat at the back rather than like a window seat at the front, because I want to be able to stand up immediately. Do not ask me why I want to be able to stand up immediately, but it's really important to me to be able to stand up. And I feel like I've reached this place now. And I can stretch my legs and I'm not cramped and I'm about to get off. And even if I stand there for 15 minutes, it's better than sitting down. Do not ask me why.
- [20:28]
B
Elizabeth, do you stand immediately?
- [20:30]
C
No. I mean, I sometimes do if I'm in the aisle and I know I need to get a bag out of the overhead bin. But I'm also short so I don't have to like hunch over if I'm in the window seat.
- [20:43]
B
I usually stand immediately. I have no patience.
- [20:46]
A
Do you think to yourself that you're like being irrational or do you think that there's a reason why you do that?
- [20:50]
B
I kind of feel bad. I think I'm being irrational and I know it's like a little bit annoying and like I'm just in the way of things, you know, and make the person next to me feel anxious by standing. I think.
- [21:01]
A
When you took the scenic route home in the car last week, did you feel like you were being irrational towards the end?
- [21:08]
B
Because when I got to my end point, I noticed that the traffic wasn't even that bad on the other route. Cause it's like side by side road and I was like, what am I doing? Like this is ridiculous, you know. Or every time, cuz the, this, the slower route had more red lights. So every time I stopped a red light I was like, this is so stupid, you know. So yeah, I was, I was conscious of the st of the irrationality all along. Makes it worse. There's no winners here.
- [21:35]
A
I have to say I'm kind of proud of the airlines and the airports for being able to identify and monetize irrationality. Like that's what capitalism is all about.
- [21:44]
C
That's true.
- [21:47]
A
On which note, I think we will wrap it up for this episode of Sleep Money Travel. Thanks for listening. Thanks for emailing us on sleepmoneyleep.com thanks to Shaina Roth for producing. And we will be back on Saturday with a regular Sleep Money.