Slate Money – “Porn and Propaganda”

Date: September 4, 2021
Host: Felix Salmon
Co-host: Emily Peck
Guest: Joe Bernstein (BuzzFeed News, recent Nieman Fellow, author of Harper’s essay on the “anti-disinformation industry”)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the dynamics, failures, and power of the so-called “anti-disinformation industry” and examines who benefits from the popular narrative about disinformation, particularly post-2016 election. The conversation also delves into the economics and censorship of online pornography, particularly in the wake of OnlyFans’ policy controversies, and touches on how internet platforms enable modern shoplifting and fencing operations. The hosts and guest connect these topics by highlighting the ways in which digital infrastructure mediates power, profits, and visibility—whether in politics, sex work, or retail crime.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Anti-Disinformation Industry: Power, Assumptions, and Effects

• Defining the “Industry” (02:18):
  Joe Bernstein introduces the term “anti-disinformation industry”—a cluster of academics, think tanks, civil society groups, and media players working to fight “disinformation."

  • "We've all ... been a part of the anti disinformation industry over the past 10 years... Specifically since 2016, there's been a cluster of people ... devoted themselves to combating a concept they call disinformation." — Joe (02:18)

• The Trump/Russia Narrative (03:44):
  Felix connects the industry’s rise to a desire for an easy explanation of the 2016 election outcome, scapegoating “bad information” for complex political phenomena.

• Evidence vs. Narrative (04:44–08:45):
  Joe notes the lack of robust causal evidence that social media misinformation alone determined election results, citing academic research:

  • "There’s a 2017 Stanford and NYU study ... the fake news in our database ... would have changed vote shares by ... hundredths of a percentage point ... much smaller than Trump’s margin of victory in the pivotal states..." — Joe (07:59)

• Business Incentives & the Pollution Analogy (05:48):
  Felix and Joe discuss how tech companies, unlike tobacco or energy firms, tacitly accept the idea they’re dangerous influencers:

  • "Their entire business model is based on the idea that they are all persuasive, that they can standardize people to be persuaded." — Joe (06:51)

• Marketing: Is It All-Powerful? (09:09–13:27):
  Debate over whether marketing and messaging truly move consumer or voter behavior, with references to the bottled water boom as a “marketing creation.”

  • "It's related to this kind of mid century idea that ... advertising and behavioral science has cracked the code to the human mind. And I don't think that's true." — Joe (11:59)

• Techlash & Perspective (13:27–14:18):
  Joe frames “techlash” as a necessary corrective, but argues coverage should avoid portraying tech firms as uniquely evil or uniquely powerful.

• Social Media’s Role in COVID Misinformation (14:18–16:06):
  Joe warns against overestimating the platforms’ unique power to foster anti-vax sentiment, noting preexisting distrust and community factors.

• Amplification vs. Mirror Effect (16:38–18:28):
  The hosts explore whether social media merely exposes longstanding fringe views or amplifies them to dangerous new levels. Joe concedes amplification is real, but urges nuance:

  • "The truth is somewhere in the middle that these things interact, that we're still figuring out how they interact..." — Joe (16:06)

• Media Fragmentation is Normal (17:54–19:52):
  Joe suggests that the mid-20th-century period of media cohesion was the exception, not the rule.

  • "What we're seeing now is kind of the way it usually is." — Emily (17:54)
  • "There was a huge network ... of like rabidly anti communist radio preachers who had an audience of millions in the 50s and 60s..." — Joe (18:28)

2. Pornography, Payments & Platform Moderation

• The OnlyFans Flip-Flop (19:52–22:24):
  The hosts explore how financial intermediaries (Stripe, Amex, etc.) wield disproportionate power over adult content, effectively shaping what’s possible online—even when pornography is legal.

• Moral Gatekeeping & Business Risks (21:28–24:07):
  Joe sees OnlyFans’ policy reversal as a rare case of user power influencing a platform’s direction.

  • "It's almost like a negotiation ... over who’s going to set the rules of 21st century American life." — Joe (21:28)

• Path Dependency in Platform Moderation (24:07–25:55):
  Discussion of why Twitter allows explicit content while Instagram/Facebook do not—possibly due to differences in how each platform evolved.

  • "I think Twitter historically is ... the worst designed and least user friendly of all of the big social networks. And so some of this may just be classic Twitter, kind of stumbling over its own feet..." — Joe (25:15)

• Porn Building the Internet & Creator Economy (26:55–28:03):
  Acknowledgment of how demand for pornography has repeatedly driven tech innovation and changes in online business models.

  • "Porn has built the Internet. People say that a lot, but it's really true..." — Emily (27:57)

• Payments, Crypto & Censorship (28:03–32:14):
  The team questions why crypto hasn’t overtaken traditional payment rails in adult entertainment, despite persistent censorship from major financial firms.
  Felix explains anti-porn campaigners have pushed alternate legal theories to try curbing online porn.

  • "A lot of what we see here is driven by very aggressive anti porn campaigners ... explicitly Christian nearly always, who like to believe that all porn is illegal..." — Felix (29:17)
  • "So much of the problem here could be solved if you got one of these big platforms actually embracing it ... But they're all far too shy to do." — Felix (30:49)

• Chargebacks & Business Hazards (32:14–34:18):
  Joe shares an anecdote on payment scams and chargebacks involving Soulja Boy’s hoverboards, illustrating how internet-mediated commerce can be deeply precarious and subject to manipulation.

3. Shoplifting, Fencing, & the Amazon Marketplace

• Stolen Goods & Online Resale (34:28–36:35):
  Story on how fencing stolen goods has changed with online platforms like Amazon, where shoplifters can sell at near-retail prices.

• Amazon’s Role & Responsibility (36:35–39:03):
  Felix points out that Amazon checks for counterfeits, but not whether goods were stolen, which increases returns to shoplifting.

  • "If Amazon ... did a bit more work in terms of validating its third party sellers, there's really no other place they can go on the Internet to sell ... No one else has that reach." — Felix (38:15)

• Scams, Disinformation, & the Shadow Internet Economy (39:03):
  Joe draws a connection between online scams, disinformation, and these gray/black markets—a theme linking multiple segments in the episode.

  • "A lot of disinformation ... are click scams ... The Internet has created all these new ... economies. And this also goes to Felix, your whole thing about like a clean, well lighted place for porn." — Joe (39:03)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The natural people to fight back against this narrative are the tech companies ... But ... their entire business model is based on the idea that they are all persuasive ... Once I realized that, it kind of unlocked a lot of things about this story for me." — Joe (05:48–06:51)

• "To give too much power to the tech companies in a negative way is in many ways to their benefit. And that's, I think, what I was trying to say in the piece." — Joe (16:06)

• "Is it possible that it's always been this way, that people have always had these nutso opinions ... but the golden age of media ... was kind of an anomalous period ... and what we're seeing now is kind of the way it usually is?" — Emily (17:54)

• "But the payments companies are a big hold up to like, even if OnlyFans totally, you know, went out and said we're going to do this right ... MasterCard, Amex, all those guys, Stripe, they don't want anything to do with this." — Emily (30:49)

• "You may actually have a situation in which people are stealing from Jeff Bezos and then making Jeff Bezos money by selling the stolen goods on his third party market." — Joe (37:30)

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Start Time | |-------------------------------------------------|------------| | Intro & Show Overview | 00:00 | | Disinformation Industry, Origins & Critique | 02:18 | | Academic Evidence on Election/Disinformation | 07:59 | | Marketing/Advertising Debate | 09:09 | | Techlash & Balanced Perspective | 13:27 | | Social Media & COVID/Vaccine Skepticism | 14:18 | | Amplification vs. Mirror Debate | 16:38 | | Media Fragmentation – Then & Now | 17:54 | | Pornography, OnlyFans Policy Flip-Flop | 19:52 | | Platform Moderation & Payments Power | 24:07 | | Porn Building the Internet & Creator Economy | 26:55 | | Payments, Crypto, and Censorship | 28:03 | | Chargebacks & Soulja Boy Hoverboards Story | 32:14 | | Online Shoplifting/Fencing & Amazon | 34:28 | | Amazon's Power & Responsibility | 36:35 | | Digital Scams, Disinformation, & Shadow Economy | 39:03 |

Numbers Round & Closing (40:10–46:22)

• Emily: 6 weeks – Texas abortion ban, its implications for women's economic status, and the surprising corporate silence. (40:10)
• Felix: 235,000 – Slump in job creation in August 2021, largely due to Delta variant impact. (43:00)
• Joe: 50 – Number of people who died due to Hurricane Ida flooding in the Northeast, highlighting unaddressed vulnerabilities and tragic failures of infrastructure. (43:46)

Tone & Language

The tone is skeptical, sharp, and irreverent, with a sense of curiosity and humor. The hosts deviate from tech-hype, opting for critical, evidence-based perspectives and drawing connections between structural issues in media, finance, and digital culture.

For Listeners

This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in digital power structures, the real (and imagined) effects of social media, and the uneasy intersections of morality, business, and technology—whether the topic is misinformation, porn, or crime. The nuanced, evidence-focused discussion stands out in a field crowded by alarmist takes, offering useful context, data, and memorable side stories.