Slate Money: “Self-Loathing Postmodern Hypebeasts”

Date: November 14, 2020
Host: Felix Salmon
Co-hosts: Emily Peck, Anna Shymansky
Guest: Jacob Weisberg (Pushkin Industries, ex-Slate chair/founder of multiple podcast companies)

Episode Overview

This episode is a lively, packed discussion featuring podcast industry leader Jacob Weisberg alongside regular Slate Money hosts. They cover three big stories:

• The business and societal implications of Pfizer’s COVID vaccine announcement
• The state of the podcasting industry, including recent high-profile acquisitions and technology shifts
• VF Corporation’s $2.1B acquisition of Supreme, and what it says about hypebeast culture

The conversation is energetic, irreverent, and deeply insightful—packed with both expert takes and sharp cultural observations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pfizer Vaccine Announcement & its Economic Impact

00:02:00 – 00:20:00

• Market Reaction: The news of Pfizer’s vaccine (90% effectiveness) triggered a huge but volatile movement in markets, especially in leisure and travel stocks. Tech “pandemic darlings” like Peloton saw sharp drops.
• Rational or Overblown?
  • Emily Peck thinks markets adjusted rational expectations; stocks initially overreacted then corrected (“You saw a little bit probably of an overreaction initially, which is very common...” – 04:58).
  • Anna Shymansky voices caution: “What we know about Pfizer’s vaccine at this point is basically based on what Pfizer has told us... their results have not been peer reviewed” (05:21).
  • Felix Salmon underscores that a vaccine isn’t a panacea: "Vaccines, while certainly a very important part of fighting any pandemic, are rarely entirely sufficient." (06:32)
• Distribution & Societal Challenges: Discussion of logistical issues—two-dose requirement, cold storage, the US healthcare system's shortcomings, rural distribution, and politicization of vaccines/masks.
• Behavioral Change: Optimism about returning to “normal” is muted by realism; future normalcy will be different.

Notable Quotes:

• Jacob Weisberg (on the market reaction):
  “I understand why Delta and Marriott and Carnival Cruises go up... I don’t understand why all the pandemic darling stocks go down so much because it seems to me those technologies stay with us... Peloton is not like a weapon developed for a war that we’re not going to use anymore.” (10:01)
• Anna Shymansky:
  “Apparently it's two shots... Given the limits of the supremely—what's the technical term—fucked up American healthcare system, that's probably going to be a challenge, especially for rural areas.” (05:42)

2. Will Pandemic Behavioral Shifts Stick?

00:10:00 – 00:21:00

• Will Zoom & Peloton Remain Ubiquitous?
  • Jacob Weisberg argues these pandemic technologies will stay—especially Zoom for work: “Nobody’s going back to conference calls. We’ve got Zoom now… It works better.”
  • Felix Salmon is skeptical, predicting “mean reversion” and a cultural revulsion for behaviors like constant Zooming when the crisis ends: “There are definitely going to be pandemic darlings which... people will drop like a hot potato the minute they get the opportunity.” (13:12)
  • Anna Shymansky draws a distinction: “Perhaps for work, Zoom sticks around. But the absolute saturation from this pandemic must go away immediately. No one should ever have to attend a Zoom funeral.” (15:00)
  • Emily Peck and Felix raise the likelihood of a “productivity boom” post-pandemic, echoing historical crises' effects.
• Edtech Skepticism:
  Felix predicts edtech will suffer a backlash: “This was their great opportunity to revolutionize education... and everyone hates that technology so much that they will never give it a second chance.” (16:18)
• Historical Analogies (Pressure Cookers):
  Felix describes how wartime gadgets (e.g., pressure cookers) only gained traction when circumstances changed habits—a parallel to video conferencing today. (17:31)

Notable Quotes:

• Anna Shymansky (on Zoom funerals): “It's just awful. No one should have a family reunion, a wedding, a bar mitzvah—any of those things—they should never ever be on Zoom.” (15:00)
• Jacob Weisberg (on social/medical change):
  “You could have real changes in the ordinary diseases that we had before the pandemic. There are big social changes that turn into economic changes that come out of an event this transformational.” (19:20)

3. The Podcasting Industry: Consolidation, Ad Tech, and Independence

00:21:00 – 00:40:00

• Industry Acquisitions:
  Megaphone (the company Jacob co-founded; formerly Panoply) was acquired by Spotify for $235M; Pushkin (Jacob’s company with Malcolm Gladwell) remains independent.
• Consolidation & Standardization:
  Weisberg sees podcasting at an inflection point: “The sort of Wild West... is probably coming to an end... The commercial side of the business is going to be increasingly rationalized, standardized... I think formats are going to become more, not regimented like radio, but you won’t have the crazy sprawl...” (23:23)
• Spotify’s Ad Tech Ambitions:
  The panel digs into the Megaphone buy. Spotify is seeking to use its first-party data for targeted ads—even outside its own platform—raising privacy concerns.
  • Jacob Weisberg:
    “Spotify has technology that lets them target ads to individuals... which is absolutely a shift away from the host-read advertising to radio-style prerecorded advertising...” (27:10)
• Programmatic Ads vs. Host-Read Ads:
  All express concern about losing quirky, personalized host-reads in favor of scalable, targeted but blander ads.
• Apple as “Sleeping Giant”:
  Apple still dominates podcast listening, but has never monetized podcasting, unlike Spotify. Weisberg doubts that will change soon, especially given Apple’s privacy focus.
• Podcast Discovery ‘Bubble?’:
  Some panelists see parallels with the blog boom. Weisberg notes the number of podcasts is less important than the size and growth of audiences.

Notable Quotes:

• Anna Shymansky:
  “It just seems like we’re in a bit of a bubble, right?” (39:24)
• Jacob Weisberg (on Apple Podcasts):
  “Apple doesn’t take any share... I don’t think people investing in the Spotify system... can say this is ultimately what’s going to dominate the market when the company that dominates the market is still there figuring out what it’s going to do about it.” (34:54)

4. Supreme and Hypebeast Culture: Is Mass Cool Possible?

00:40:37 – 00:48:53

• Supreme’s $2.1B Sale:
  VF Corp. acquired Supreme, sparking debate on whether a brand built on scarcity and “coolness” can scale without losing its cachet.
• What’s a Hypebeast (and a Skate Kid)?
  Weisberg’s son explains the distinction: hypebeasts are the ones chasing Supreme’s limited drops for resale, not for authenticity or actual use in skateboarding (40:57).
• Can Niche Cool Go Mass Cool?
  • Nike cited as an example—still able to produce collectible, limited drops alongside mass products.
  • “...Once something becomes mass... it's no longer cool anymore... [but] you can make the shift from niche cool to mass cool.” (Anna, referencing research – 44:10)
• Supreme’s Barbara Kruger Roots:
  Supreme’s signature look is “a straight rip-off” of Barbara Kruger’s iconic style, but she was never paid, and she remains dismissive.
• Self-Loathing Postmodernism:
  Felix: “[Supreme] has created this incredible demand for its product. What it has is this self-fulfilling prophecy of... self-loathing.” (47:20)
  Anna: “It does seem kind of Gen X to be a slight self-loathing brand that pretends to be cool but isn’t cool—that you still kind of want.” (48:31)

Notable Quotes:

• Jacob Weisberg:
  “What [my son] Nate says is that at the skate park... anybody wearing supreme is a douchebag. Unless they got the supreme stuff for free, because supreme gives it to them because they’re such trendsetters.” (41:08)
• Emily Peck:
  “Is there any other type of postmodernism?” (48:48)

5. Numbers Round

00:49:00 – 00:56:25

• Jacob Weisberg:
  20% — The amount that labeling Trump’s tweets as misleading reduced their spread on Twitter (49:00).
• Emily Peck:
  £445 million — The value of underwritten debt for PureGym just before positive vaccine news rescued an otherwise troubled bond sale (49:53).
• Felix Salmon:
  150,526 — The number of new Covid cases in America on Thursday. “We’re basically up at this point to a million new cases of COVID a week in this country.” (51:47)
• Anna Shymansky:
  Delves into the dangers of the “interregnum”—the risky transition period between the Trump and Biden administrations, with parallels to 2008’s financial crisis transition.
• Emily Peck (a second time):
  $60 — The original price of the Palomino Brown Modern Khaki at Gap, made famous by MSNBC host Steve Kornacki; sales spiked 90% (54:32).
• Closing banter:
  On Supreme branding—Felix: “If supreme took those pleated pants from the Gap and put a little supreme logo on them, that would be a $500 pant right there.” (55:19)
  Kornacki as America’s new comfort icon.

Memorable Moments & Tone

• The panelists keep things sharp, snarky, and personal (self-described as “old and more familiar with art-world brands than streetwear brands”).
• Weisberg and Felix’s nuanced disagreement about post-pandemic behavior is especially lively and thoughtful.
• The Supreme/Barbara Kruger segment is both biting and illuminating about “cool” and profitability.
• The numbers round, as always, is playful and wide-ranging, punctuated by humor about Supreme’s pricing power and Steve Kornacki saving the Gap.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Pfizer Vaccine Impact: 02:00 – 20:00
• Pandemic’s Lasting Effects & Tech Adoption: 10:00 – 21:00
• Podcasting Industry, Ad Tech, and Consolidation: 21:00 – 40:00
• Supreme’s Acquisition, Hypebeasts, and Coolness: 40:37 – 48:53
• Numbers Round: 49:00 – 56:25

Conclusion

This episode offers a fast-paced, insightful trip through pandemic economics, industry change, and cultural phenomena. Weisberg’s expertise and wit bring depth—especially to the podcast industry segment—while the Supreme discussion is a standout in irreverent business/culture commentary.
For business junkies, culture-watchers, and anyone wondering how both our economy and “coolness” work, this is a sharp, breezy, essential listen.