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- [00:10]
A
Hello.
- [00:13]
B
Welcome to the Devil Wears Prada episode of Slate. Money Goes to the Movies. I'm Felix Salmon of Axios. I'm here with Anna Shymansky.
- [00:23]
C
Hello.
- [00:25]
B
And we're here to talk about the Devil Wears Prada with, frankly, the only person with whom it would be possible to talk about the Bedevil west brother Edmund Lee of the New York Times and formerly of every other New York media organization that you can name. Welcome.
- [00:44]
D
Thank you. Hello.
- [00:46]
B
We are going to talk about the plot, the acting, the message, the script, and everything about this movie, which is a glorious confection of the mid-2000s, saved and elevated by an absolutely astonishing performance from Meryl Streep. This is a fun one, people. You're going to enjoy this. Stay tuned for sleepd Money Goes to the movies. So, Ed, where were you and how old were you? This is the question I always ask when you first watched the the Devil Wears product.
- [01:23]
D
How old was I? Oh, my God, that's what it was. 2006. Right?
- [01:28]
B
It was not that long ago. I guess it was.
- [01:30]
A
That was a while ago.
- [01:32]
D
Yeah, that's a while ago. So I guess I'm in my 30s or something. Yeah. And I actually did not watch it in the theater. I got a review copy of the book when it came out, and I flipped through the first chapter, and the writing was so terrible, I could not get past the first chapter. And I do know at the premiere, I wasn't at the premiere, but I do know there was this whole kerfuffle in the media world about, like, you know, Lauren Weisberger, of course, is going to be there, the author of this sort of Romana Clef. And Anna Wintour had been invited, and she wasn't going to show up. You know, she's like, oh, no, that's not for me. And as the story goes, you know, somehow Anna was convinced to show up. Don't worry, it's not so bad. Don't worry. It'll be fine, you know. And she did. So she showed up. And they were in the theater at the same time, but they did not speak to each other or see each other or interact with each other. Anyway, my point is, the book was so terrible, I couldn't get past the first chapter. I couldn't care about that There was a movie. And then, like, it showed up, like, on cable a year or two later. Whenever it was, I happened to watch it one night that it was on, I'm like, oh, wow, the movie's actually pretty good. And my friends are telling me, oh, yeah, actually the movie's better than the book. It's one of those rare occasions moments where like sort of the predicate media version, you know, outstrips, you know, the original. And at least that's my impression anyway, just from the first chapters, because the.
- [02:58]
B
Book is like, it's about the concept in the execution, right? And what they bought when they optioned the book was the concept, right? And then when you are Hollywood and you option the concept, then you get to bring in Stanley Tucci and Meryl Streep and you get, and you get. I mean, I'm sure there was like an army of screenwriters that most people actually.
- [03:21]
D
No, it wasn't. Here I'm going to do some quick research because I don't have this in my head. But the screenwriter, I think the screenwriter did a bang up job of doing all the sort of the right things you do in a 90 minute or 100 minute screenplay, but also picking apart the nuance of what this fashion industry and what fashion media is really about. And there's like that famous scene now famous, or at least what I think of as famous scene where so early in the movie where the main character, Andy, she sort of is in this meeting going over the next shoot, right? And you know, the fashion assistants are there sort of going through the different clothing items and you know, one of them holds up these two belts and like, oh my, it's really hard to. Shoes. They're so different and they're both the same color belt basically. And Andy sort of like Snickers and you know, Meryl Streep's character, she, you know, the Anna character basically like gives her this look and said, do you find this funny somehow? And then she goes to this whole monologue, this really well written monologue that sums up, you know, what fashion media is, which is, you know, it's tastemaking, it's telling you what to wear. And there's this whole multi billion dollar industry that relies on direction, that relies on a hierarchy, so to speak, right? Of like where what's in vogue and what's not in vogue and then that sort of trickles down into everyday fashion. And the thing that you end up wearing, even if you don't care about it, is actually a function of what we do in this room.
- [04:54]
C
You go to your closet and you select, I don't know, that lumpy blue sweater, for instance, because you're trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back. But what you don't know is that that sweater is not just blue. It's not turquoise. It's not lapis. It's actually cerulean. You're also blithely unaware of the fact that in 2002, Oscar de la Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns. And then I think it was Yves Saint Laurent, wasn't it, who showed cerulean military jackets. I think we need a jacket here. And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers, and then it filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic casual corner where you no doubt fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs. And it's sort of comical how you think that you've made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when, in fact, you're wearing a sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room from a pile of.
- [06:01]
B
Stuff in this room. It's a great way of ending that speech. And it's a su. It's. It is the key scene in the movie because it cements Miranda Priestley's credentials as actually a smart and qualified person rather than just some evil, sadist, middle management, you know, like, manager who loves to kick down. Like, this is the one that sort of cements her bona fides is like, she deserves to be in this job. And she might be terrible, but she's also a genius.
- [06:36]
D
Exactly. And she knows what she's doing. And there's real craft and real expertise and real professionalism to this. And this isn't just I like this pretty dress sort of thing, Right?
- [06:48]
B
Because, like, if it was otherwise just like, ooh, she pursed her lips then, like, anyone can purse their lips.
- [06:54]
D
Right?
- [06:55]
A
I have a question, though. Is this how fashion and fashion media still works, or is this how fashion and fashion media did work in 2006?
- [07:05]
D
So, you know what? I can actually speak to that from personal experience. Right? So I used to work at womenswear and W magazine once upon a time. And, you know, it's funny. It's like, if you work in media in Manhattan for more than 10 or 15 years, chances are, like, you. You've had to found ways to survive. And so you end up working all different kinds of newsrooms.
- [07:26]
B
No shame. No shame at Window.
- [07:29]
D
I think womenswear is a great paper. I mean, it's become something else now, just in the age of, you know, with the Internet sort of killing all kinds of traditional media. But when I was there, both womenswear and W, they were, you know, sort of the very inside, inside fashion media entities.
- [07:45]
B
And.
- [07:46]
D
And, yes, like, they were hugely influential. So whenever Fashion Week comes around, we would deploy our fashion people to go to all the shows and write reviews. Now, the reviews are like capsule reviews. They're like 200, maybe 300 words at the most. There's one main big review that the big fashion editor writes if it's like a Calvin Klein show or a Ralph Lauren show. But these designers, big and small, they live and die by these reviews. And in fact, it's womenswear in particular that speaks directly to the designers about, like, we liked it or we didn't like it, right. And I think Anna Wintour and Vogue sort of exercise a different sort of scope of that power, which is, I'm putting you on the COVID or I'm not putting you on the COVID but sort of the. In the increments, sort of leading up to sort of those bigger moments. Womenswear and W, like, they exercise huge influence, especially during Fashion Week. And Anna would sort of. Her review was sort of how she. You know, the scene in the movie is actually kind of true. It's kind of true and kind of not true. Like, her review, you would see her sitting in the front row, and she would give certain looks, and people sort of learn to interpret those looks. And whether she clapped or how she clapped made a huge difference. There's a whole etiquette, too. And even, like, when, you know, because my wife actually also works in fashion, so she told me a lot more of the inside baseball stuff. But like, at a Runway show, you know, after the models all walk, you know, walk out, the designer, he or she, like, it's. It's bad etiquette to walk the Runway. You. You. What you're supposed to do is you're supposed to sort of peek out from behind the curtain, do a little wave, and Anna gives you a nod, and then you go back, right? And then she'll come backstage and say hi to you and. And maybe offer a few. If you're, you know, more sort of quiet thoughts or private thoughts. But every once in a while, you'll see designers sort of go out onto the stage with their models. And apparently, that's bad etiquette. And Anna looks down on stuff like that, Right? Don't do that.
- [09:50]
B
If Anna would be.
- [09:52]
D
But to long answer your question, yes, there's huge influence now that has changed, right, since Instagram and just the Internet and generally the rise of influencers. I mean, there were fashion bloggers that shortly after that movie came out, really, or that book came out became, like, started to become really big. And then all of a sudden, the fashion people, the fashion companies themselves, designers realized, oh, they're actually pretty influential, and we need to sit them in the front row. And then there's a whole politics around which row you sit in, which chair, who you're. You're sat next to.
- [10:28]
B
I want to say, like, shortly after this movie came out was, like, when Tavi starts getting invited to sit in the front row. And that's the begin of the change. But I would also say that, like, we have so internalized the idea of, like, digital disruption and, like, when did it come for this industry and when did it come for that industry that it's easy to lose sight of the fact that the real thing that ended this was not the Internet, it was the pandemic, right? And the pandemic just put a nail through the heart of the fashion industry, certainly the high fashion industry, which is what we're seeing in this movie. And whether and how it ever comes back in the United States is a huge unknown. I mean, it's. It's still going strong in China, thankfully, because if it wasn't for China, the entire industry would just be dead right now. But the pandemic has totally changed the seasons. The need to, you know, buy something new this season, that season, read the magazines, go out, be seen, and how that comes back is going to be super different from how it was a year ago.
- [11:35]
D
But I will say that the Internet did do something in terms of. It changed two huge aspects, the cycle of fashion, right? Which is it used to be fashion had two seasons a year, right? Spring and fall, and maybe there was one sort of mini season in between. And so major designers would design two and a half collections a year. Right. But what the Internet did with, you know, fast fashion, right? You know, H and M, et cetera, it's dual related, right? The Internet sort of like crushed prices, crushed margins on stuff, and then fast fashion sort of sped up the cycle effect of, like, when seasons would happen. So what that meant was you started.
- [12:15]
B
Getting things called cruise and resorts. I have no idea what these things mean. Yeah.
- [12:20]
D
So, like, the designers have basically designed new collections, like, every other month practically. And then they couldn't produce enough volume at the right cost, so that they were not really making as much money as they otherwise could be because the knockoffs were cheaper. And so then you had to compete against them. And that just in general, just sort of, you know, manufacturing industry and Fashion altogether, Amazon and just E Commerce altogether just sort of slimmed the margins to the point where, you know, you had the big fast fashion houses selling their stuff online as well, but then ordering in massive bulk so that the factories in China would take their business but then not take, you know, the smaller up and coming designer business because your order is too small. It's not worth it for me to set aside room in my factory to. To produce your particular, your 150 run or 1000 item run, whatever it might be.
- [13:14]
B
We have a small designer in this movie. He plays a central role. That kind of thing of like a designer getting discovered by a magazine, getting a big investment, that kind of thing happens much less frequently now. But I want to just like pick up on one thing about Anna's question, which maybe you can answer. I missed this, I think, the first time that I watched the movie. But rewatching it. There's a line, I think in that same scene where she gives the blue sweater speech, there's a line in that scene where she's going through the clothes and she doesn't like this, and she doesn't like this and she's getting angry and she's like, why don't we have anything? And she turns around and she goes, do we have anything from advertisers?
- [13:56]
D
Yes. So like there's a lot in that scene. There's a lot sort of embedded in that specific line that I think a lot of people miss, right. Or that the world outside of media may or may not quite understand. And that the dirty little secret, not that it's even really a secret, but magazines like Vogue W all the fashion titles. I mean, it's interesting that I worked at womenswear and W this, this weird hybrid sort of thing. The two have separated since. But like W was like very commercial magazine like Vogue, right? Where it's kind of like advertising is really what it is. Womenswear was just actually hardcore daily paper, right? With like hardcore reporting and journalism and, and, and would uncover things and break news and. And did a very good job. But on the W side of things, whenever they would do a fashion shoot, an editorial shoot, editorial means you comes up with the idea, the concept and the different who I want to feature what fits in with the theme. But there's a term of art that few people know in fashion journalism called necessary resources. So every fashion shoot has to have a certain percentage of what they call necessary resources. And that's code for advertiser, right? So in the movie she just makes it blunt, right? Where are the advertisers? Right? Meaning, like, why haven't you chosen who are actually paying for ads in the book that, you know, to feature in our editorial collection? So I think people don't get the hypocrisy of that. Right. Or sort of just not the hypocrisy, but. But the lack of independence.
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B
I have it on reasonably good authority that we have now reached the point that at Harper's Bazaar, the percentage of necessary resources in editorial shoots is officially 100% percent. I'm not even joking. And if you don't advertise in Harper's Bazaar, your clothes will not get featured in the shoots. And they often actually just get the advertisers to do the editorial shoots.
- [15:58]
A
And I guess, sorry, this just kind of brings up what jumped out at me most about the film. And this kind of relates to what we were speaking about is how dated the film felt like it's not that long ago, but it just seems like it's describing this world where magazines play such a dominant role and people are making a decent amount of money who work for magazines. And I guess I'm just wondering, like, when. When did that really, really start to change?
- [16:24]
D
The 90s?
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B
Yeah. This is. This is the question I have for you.
- [16:27]
D
Well, yeah, so I think you're exactly right. Like, I think the movie's dated in that it's really 90s media New York. That's the milieu that it's trying to. To sort of show or replicate. Even though it came out like, you know, years after that, sort of one golden era of magazines. Right. And that was sort of the height, that was the end really, of big time magazine like expense accounts and Conde and Ass on top of the World and sort of the whole cliche that at least in media circles, when we talk about Conde in ass, like the town cars that they have for everything, I mean, it's absolutely true. But that ended around 2000 or early 2000s or started to go away. And then by the time this movie came out, like, that just didn't exist. Like Hyundai didn't have that kind of muscle anymore. Both sort of in the world of fashion and just sort of in their business.
- [17:18]
B
I think in 2006, there was no shortage of town cars coming in and out of Four Times Square for Vogue.
- [17:25]
D
Oh, yeah. Vogue was different though. Yeah.
- [17:27]
B
In 2006, Vogue was still fine. And this is a movie about Vogue.
- [17:32]
D
Yes.
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B
And Vogue kept on going strong for a long time after this movie.
- [17:35]
D
Right.
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A
But she's working at Vogue in order to work at other magazines.
- [17:39]
B
Yeah, the idea that there's like another magazine. No, like Vogue was definitely the last magazine standing. But, you know, the final scene is basically she gets a job at a worthy downtown weekly newspaper on the strength of a reference from Miranda Priestley. You know, it wasn't necessarily that she wanted to work for magazines, but it's definitely the case that there were enough glossy magazines paying $3 a word that you could have, you know, what's his face? The terrible blonde guy. Just like.
- [18:13]
D
Terrible blonde guy.
- [18:14]
B
Yeah, terrible blonde guy.
- [18:16]
D
Trying to remember the character. He's just the annoying character.
- [18:19]
B
He's definitely a trope of Manhattan media that really did start coming to an end circa like early 2000s, where you could really make a lot of money just by writing magazine.
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A
A freelance writer.
- [18:35]
D
Who. Yeah. Who would have like these six figure contracts to write like maybe five or six stories a year and then would still write for other places as well and spend most of the day at a bar or something or going to parties at night and then writing about it just for fun and then getting paid $1.50, $2.50 a word at wherever it was that they had contracts with that. I mean, by 2006, certainly that world was. Was dying. It wasn't completely gone, but it's definitely dying. But yeah, you're right. I mean, Vogue was still powerful back then. And Anna Wintour as scary as ever. I mean, the whole scary thing. I do think this whole. One of the tropes in the movie is. Or with the character, with the Miranda Priestly character. She has that face, that look that she gives you and scares the hell out of you. Anna has that too. She's famous for giving you looks without saying anything. Like, this displeases me. And you can sort of see it on her face. But she is otherwise. From what I, you know, from my own reporting, from what I've seen and heard, you know, she's actually a very, you know, respectful, fairly nice person to just regular people. She does. She's not sort of this sort of aloof person. She just doesn't. She's not a small talk person. Right. And then when she's upset, like, she'll show it in this sort of, you know, this facial way.
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B
Since we're on the subject of Anna Winter's interpersonal relations, Stanley Tucci is obviously Andre Leon Talley.
- [19:59]
D
Yeah.
- [20:01]
B
Which interesting piece of casting there. But yeah. So Andre Leon Talley famously had a massive falling out with Anna. And they, you know, snipe at each other in the press occasionally. But how accurate was that relationship? Is that real?
- [20:21]
D
Well, I think it's real in that I think the Stanley Tucci character, the main thing he exhibits is the need for loyalty. So even when he's screwed over at the end, when he doesn't get the job that he's supposed to get, after however many years of being her chief deputy and sort of all around sort of hanger on, he's still loyal. And even after that, he's like, he doesn't even know if he's going to get sort of rewarded in the long run. So I think with Andre, like, that was always the case, like, for decades, like, he was just always exhibited this loyalty to her and she to him in the sense that she would try to help him financially. But I think when they split, I guess it was around 2017, so relatively recently it was more that he had had it. I mean, I think she was also kind of done with him. But so in that way, the movie is inaccurate. Right. The result of all of that sort of anguish and difficulty in this very difficult relationship is that he just decides, like, screw it. Right? And so he writes this memoir that takes her to task. But even the memoir doesn't quite go as deep as he could. And I think, you know, race, I think, is definitely a factor, especially with. Specifically with Andre. You know, I wrote this story a few months back talking about how a lot of the black people in particular who had worked at Vogue over the years had experienced a certain kind of racism that, like, they just did not know how to handle. Because it wasn't necessarily overt, though in some cases it was. And it was more just that sort of Anna had created this environment or had sort of, you know, her sensibility. You know, this colonial broad is the term that Andre uses in his. You know, he's used it in interviews after his memoir came out. Is very true. Like, she's a very much a person of her time and place.
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B
And that's a way that the movie is maybe unwittingly accurate, I would say, is how incredibly white it is.
- [22:18]
D
Yes, yes. But like, sort of, kind of almost pitch perfect too. Like, you know, if you worked in magazines in the 90s, like, that's kind of what it looked and felt like, really. You know, you know, part of also, like being in magazines and media at the time was like, you know, going to parties. That was at, like, parties all the time. Every. Every other day, every other there's some kind of event happening. And I remember distinctly going to one party. I Forget where it was and who was holding it. And I knew I wasn't on the list, but, like, my friend was. He's like, don't worry about it. We'll just sort of rush in. And the guy, the clipboard, like, he was holding, like, he had my friend's name. And he said, and you are. And my friend's like, don't worry about it. And, like, we just sort of walked in, right? And then, like, after, like, an hour at that party, he's like, oh, no, there's this other party we had to go to, I think, whatever. So we go to this other party. It's just somewhere downtown. Show up at the door. It's the same clipboard guy. He's working multiple parties as well. And he sees. He recognizes me as the guy who blew him off. He's like, yeah, whatever, because we were not even on the list for that party, right? So we just walked in and like, okay. And free booze and all that other stuff. So. But again, that was 90s New York media. And that really ended, like, just really. You know what, after 2001, after September 11th, I feel like the economy was in disarray. Yes. But just sort of, like, psychically and culturally and socially things had really changed. So that kind of. That sense of bacchanalia just sort of also ended. Right. So even big media companies that had money stopped doing that. And so when Devil Wear's product came out first as a book and then as a movie, it sort of. It didn't strike the right note. For the inside is. Yeah, exactly. We're like, oh, well, that's over now. Right. But then when I saw it on cable, what it was a year or two later, I had nostalgia for it. Right. So in that way, I did like the movie. I mean, I think just structured. The movie is very, very well done. But I think sort of the intangible aspect for me is just like, oh, yeah, that's right. I used to pretend to live that life myself, you know, kind of a thing.
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B
But, I mean. But everyone's pretending, right? Everyone in fashion has the. What's it called? Imposter complex.
- [24:36]
D
Yes, exactly. That's what Manhattan really is. That's what media really is, right?
- [24:41]
A
Is you are Jay, you see, of imposter syndrome.
- [24:44]
D
You are. You're Jay Gatsby. That's. That's really what it meant to kind of, you know, fiddle your way through, you know, this weird industry at this weird time. And, you know, part of it was, like, doing that, going to parties and There's a scene in the movie where her boyfriend confronts her. It's like, you know what? Like, I'm not in the Peace Corps myself. It's not like I'm exactly, you know, saving the world here, but at least I know what I'm doing here. I know that, like, what I'm doing is kind of bullshit. Can't you just fess up, too? That you're doing bullshit too, that you're just, like, posing, you know, in this thing and she's, like, all offended. It's like, no, no, this is serious. And, like, this is my life. And no, you're, you know, you're. You're play acting really. You know, you're trying to play this, you know, think that you're successful in this thing when really you're just an assistant to this sort of megalomaniacal, you know.
- [25:37]
B
But. Okay, so this is the key tension in the film, right, Is the idea that, like, a lot of these movies, like, Wall street is the same, right? This idea of, like, selling out. And then you get purity by, like, reversing that decision to sell out. And there's definitely this arc to the movie where there's this moment where she sells out and she starts, like, you know, straightening her hair and wearing couture. And she might not realize that moment at the time, but it's clear what happens. And then she, you know, enters into this glamorous slipstream, and then she achieves purity at the end by reversing that decision. And so what that says to me is that there isn't a tension in this movie between, like, is this a glamorous, real important, multi billion dollar industry which, you know, you have to take seriously versus is it all bullshit and you just have to kind of work in it as a means to an end? Like, the message of the movie has put its fingers on the scale on that one, and the movie thinks it's bullshit.
- [26:51]
A
Well, and I think this is one of the, to me, really, like, weaknesses of the movie is that it is like a million other movies in how it suggests that there are, like, good industries and good paths for people to follow, especially women. And then there are the, you know, the bad paths, which are often connected with people who actually have money. And that, as we said, what these films are kind of telling these young people is that there is something wrong with taking this one path that leads to where people have actual money. And I just found her boyfriend and her friends in this film just so awful, so awful. I just want to be there, like, You've changed. I'm like, of course you change. Everybody changes when they get their first job and they have to, like, be an actual adult out of college. Like, it's weird if you don't change, you know? And I just felt like that was a real. Like, you knew exactly what was gonna happen in this film because it's something we've seen a million times. Like. And again, it's not even just, like, the fact that it's about fashion. It's almost like the fact that you have a job that's not a, like, quote unquote, you know, I don't know, like, good job. Because, like, even with her friends, there's like, the one character who's like, I'm a business consultant or something. And then he's like, well, actually, I hate my job. It's like, you know, in the sense that, like, the only jobs that are the good ones are like, well, the woman who works at a gallery, that's a good job. But the other ones are like, they're bad forms of work. And maybe because it might actually lead at some point to them making money.
- [28:21]
B
Or being able to afford the clothes, which are superficial, presumptively, like, superficial and a waste of money.
- [28:28]
D
Well, I agree with what you're saying, Anna, but I'm going to disagree with this aspect. I think part of the tension in that of. I don't think it's a money thing so much as, you know, her friends, they sort of saw their. Their work as kind of bullshit. And maybe I'm. I'm sort of projecting too much into that. But then they give her a hard time because she's taking her job way too seriously. Right.
- [28:50]
B
I think that's. That's it. That's exactly. Like, she's like, I make port wine reductions. Like, so she takes her job.
- [28:56]
D
It.
- [28:57]
B
If she had taken her, you know, waitressing job that seriously, they would have given her grief as well.
- [29:02]
A
Right. But to me, that actually feeds into the same idea because she takes her job seriously because, like, that's what a good worker does. No matter what your job is, you do a really good job and you take it seriously. And, yeah, if your boss calls, you take the damn call. Like, that's what you do. And I feel like her friends are like this. Like, no, we're above that. And it's like, okay, well, then you're gonna be in these jobs forever, and she's gonna eventually get a good job and leave you all behind. You know, the thing is, it turns out that there is More to Runway than just fancy purses.
- [29:27]
B
Look.
- [29:28]
A
Here's an essay by Jay McInerney. A piece by Joan Didion in an interview with Christiane Amanpour.
- [29:34]
D
Looks like someone's been drinking the Kool Aid.
- [29:36]
A
What are you.
- [29:39]
D
Nate, I got it.
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B
It's.
- [29:41]
D
Yep. The dragon lady.
- [29:42]
A
Let me talk to her.
- [29:43]
D
No. Okay.
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A
I need that.
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B
That's how I get her on scrambled eggs.
- [29:45]
A
Lily. No, no, no, no, no.
- [29:46]
D
That thing.
- [29:47]
A
Look, that thing. I was gonna answer. It's gonna answer.
- [29:49]
B
What happened?
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A
Going to make. Give me the phone. Hi, Miranda. Absolutely.
- [30:02]
D
Uh huh.
- [30:02]
A
I'm leaving right now.
- [30:04]
D
Now, you guys didn't have to be such assholes. I'm going to follow that thread with you. Because I do think there is an interesting moment in the movie. And this goes back to Felix's earlier point where towards the end, this is when she decides we're at this denouement where she has had it with Miranda. Because she sees what Miranda is capable of in terms of just her being just really nasty and difficult and ultimately not loyal. Right. That she'll do whatever she can. And they're in Paris. And she sort of basically had an ultimatum to her boss. This is Miranda, sort of. I have a list of names. And they're all loyal to me. And if you get rid of me, then I will. I'll take them all with me. And so she works finagles this deal where she sort of switches up who gets this big fashion job. And it's not her lieutenant anymore. And Andy's basically. I don't know if I could do that. You know. And you know, Miranda goes, but you already have. You know, you've already. You've gone to the lengths you need to go to to succeed. And she's like, what do you mean you've done that? Like, to Emily. Right. Where Emily was supposed to come to Paris. And that ended up being that. I mean, I think the movie sort of, you know, they skipped a step where, like the Emily character, which, by the way, Emily Blunt was such great sort of over the top acting in that, you know, she gets hit by a car or something. So she can't go. Anyway. So it sort of starts.
- [31:32]
B
Yeah. Why did they do that? Like, in terms of screenwriting, getting hit by the car was so strong.
- [31:36]
D
Exactly. That's a weak. That's a definitely weak part of the movie. Because it doesn't force Andy to make that decision. But it's sort of like she was about to. Right. And I think what the Miranda characters basically saying is, you've Basically done that. You've gone to these lengths to basically be an asshole and do what it takes to succeed. And then she's like, but I don't know if I. I am that person. And. And then Miranda says, oh, don't be ridiculous. Everybody wants to be us. Right? And I think that is sort of that kind of gross moment. You're like, ugh. You know, like, really? And that's when she decides, all right, I'm not this person anymore. I can't be this person.
- [32:13]
B
In terms of the bigger picture of. Is the movie too antagonistic towards adulting, as you would put it? I'm going to come out and say that we written word journalists tend to concentrate quite a lot on, like, what people say. And the real power of this movie, and the power of any movie, frankly, is visual. And if you watch this movie with the sound off, the glamour, the attractiveness, the amazing milieu that you see and you feel and you find yourself, you know, inside is all of the stuff that we're supposed to be feeling some kind of revulsion to. And I feel on some level that Devil Wears Prada is a little bit like the film version of Liars Poker, right? Which was meant to be this book, like, Uncovering How Terrible Wall Street Was. But everyone read it as a book, you know, telling everyone how wonderful Wall street was.
- [33:20]
D
Right. Well, but that's exactly that tension, right. Of the viewer to the material. That I agree. I think, like, the execution of a lot of the actual filmmaking. The camera work, for example, I thought that was actually very well done, right. Despite weakness of character, weakness of parts of the script and sort of, you know, the plot points, I do think they did a good job of, at least for the audience. Sort of making you think that you're supposed to hate this, but kind of secretly like, oh, yes, this is beautiful, right? This is yummy. This is like kind of like a fun thing that the whole milieu around it, I do think. Look, so for those of us who in the media world, ultimately, the other thing that's sort of the flat note in the movie is that so she ends up working at this sort of ragtag paper, this sort of earnest, honest, honest work paper where she's going to.
- [34:10]
B
Write a nation or something like that.
- [34:12]
D
Exactly, right. I mean, come on. Right? You can do great journalism and still work in an environment that's crappy, where people are complete assholes and someone's trying to stab you in the back. The work itself might seem more meaningful and be more meaningful, but that doesn't mean that the world around you isn't any less cutthroat or full of Emily's, that you have to kind of stab in the back or whatever it might be. And I think that is another failing that a deeper movie, an Eve Harrington type of scenario type of character would have displayed better. But again, this is like, the Disney version of, like, you know, Manhattan Media, which I guess I like that part of it, but, like, they will never.
- [34:59]
B
Make a Disney version of Manhattan Media ever again. Like, this is our one, like, moment to get Disneyfied. And, like, I'm glad we got Disneyfied once because, like, there is no Manhattan Media to disneyfy anymore.
- [35:11]
D
There isn't. And now it's all kind of glum. And either that or, you know, we have newsrooms full of staff insurrections now. Right. It's like, actually, now could be a great moment. I mean, I think there should be a TV series based on a newsroom, like, in a real way. Like, I think. I think we're ripe for, like, a really smart, dense, epic newsroom sort of serial that really gets at, like, you know, the nuances and the difficulties of, like, what it really means to report the news amidst the craziness of your colleagues of the situation. Of all the nuances, just how news is made anyway. There's sausage there that I think is actually kind of interesting that people.
- [35:57]
B
We could back Channel Union Organization on Slack, all of that. It makes terrible television.
- [36:03]
D
Yes.
- [36:04]
B
Terrible tv.
- [36:06]
D
Yeah, we could totally do that.
- [36:07]
A
Slack would be very effective.
- [36:09]
D
Right? Exactly. Anna, you didn't like anything about this movie. I could tell there's zero redeeming qualities in this movie for you.
- [36:17]
B
You didn't like the pretty frocks? I mean, the frocks are very pretty.
- [36:19]
A
The frocks are very pretty. Yes. The frocks are very pretty. I can't say that I hated the movie in the sense that obviously Meryl Streep is good in everything. She creates more depth in every character that she has. So, yes, obviously, you see that. And I think Anne Hathaway is also perfectly fine in this film. I guess I just couldn't get over that. A. Yeah, that kind of, like, adulting is bad. I also thought the way that they just, like, made anorexia a punchline was really, really problematic.
- [36:47]
D
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [36:49]
A
That was one thing. And I also just didn't love the idea that it kind of was also teaching you that if women are really successful, they will not be able to have relationships. Because that's what we see in the film that Miranda Priestly is. She's too strong. Granted, she is a horrible person, but, you know, it definitely is this. She even says, like, oh, I'm so focused on my career. And so she gets divorced. The Andy character, she's so focused on her career, so she loses her boyfriend.
- [37:14]
B
Well, I mean, Nigel says it happens to everyone, right? But there are only women and gay men in this movie.
- [37:19]
D
So there are real difficult bosses like that. I mean, Anna Wintour is famous for. I mean, in that way, there is some accuracy to the movie of her being a very challenging and difficult boss.
- [37:32]
A
That I actually think is very true. Because, you know, talked with people who've ever been assistants to, not just in fashion, but in lots of different industries. You know, that scene where she's outside the restaurant and outside the theater trying to get this plane flight in the middle of a hurricane, like that felt very, very accurate.
- [37:50]
D
Yes, exactly. And I think. I mean, there is something also just in the world of fashion where there's, you know, fashion and fashion journalism in particular, like, they. They sort of operate at a bit of a remove, right, from the rest of the world in a weird way because you're so ensconced in this sort of sense of fantasy. That's the whole point of fashion, right? That's the whole idea. Hollywood is the same thing. And so, you know, there's just sort of a misjudgment from a lot of people about what's correct and what's incorrect in terms of what's. What should be allowed and what isn't allowed. So you do have these bosses who are. You know, when I was at Women's Wear and w. Like, I would be there midnight 1am sometimes just because editor kept changing her mind about something or this shoot didn't look quite right. And we need to change this layout again. And I'm like, God, it's like the text was done hours ago, but we're still waiting for the way this photo is positioned. And you're like, okay, I guess that's what this is. So, yeah, I mean, that's real. And it's still real, unfortunately.
- [38:50]
B
And it's not a satire. I think that's the thing I like about it. It's not the player. It's not exaggerating for effect. And that's rare in these movies. If you're going to make a comedy about one of those industries, the natural thing to do is to exaggerate. And, you know, you wind up with like 9 to 5 and like, you know, extreme scenes of bondage and that kind of stuff. Whereas this is. This does not go there.
- [39:17]
A
Although I will say having to get the, like, unreleased Harry Potter manuscript.
- [39:21]
B
Yeah, the Henry Potter manuscript is like. Is almost there, but it's not. It's not. Like, that's not funny. That scene is not played for laughs.
- [39:29]
D
Right. You know, and that the bad guy, you know, the blonde villain guy, like, somehow has a connection to someone. Like, that also feels, in a weird way true, too, because it's like, that's the thing. It's like Manhattan media is, like, so insular. This world that we live in, where it's actually very small, you know, and, like, kind of sadly small, but it's also kind of, you know, funnily small. It's like you're always bumping into someone, you know, I remember this actually not that long ago, I was having a drink with Ben Smith at the Old Town Bar. And, like, within, it was just the two of us. We were there early and it was. This was before he joined the Times. And like, within an hour, like, five different people come in who we all knew were like, oh, we were all here at the same time. Like, what happened? It's like, it just felt like cliche that we were all there at the same time. Just because everyone goes to that bar on a Thursday at, like, 4:00 or 5:00 clock to get, like, a drink and source up with someone. And so it's a small world. I think Meryl Streep made the movie for me. Like, I think, anyway, we should talk.
- [40:32]
B
About the performances and especially about Meryl Streep who, like, this isn't just Meryl Streep is good in this movie, but Meryl Streep is good by Meryl Streep standards.
- [40:41]
D
Yes, yes. And it's really hard because she's written in such a terrible, terrible way. But, like, somehow it's not just the believable part, but you're kind of like, with her a little bit at every moment right. Of her. And just, like, she gets the rhythm so correct in terms of how she's asking for things and wanting things and the look she gives on her face and she gives it bizarrely like a nobility. Right. And that. That, like, kind of sells you on the character, despite the terribleness of the character. And then I want to go back to what, you know, I want to sort of connect it back to what I was saying earlier about sort of in the real world moment when the movie premiere happened. And I now remember this. It was Meryl Streep who convinced Anna Wintour to show up for the premiere. Because she said, I'm recalling now all the gossip arts. She, like, reached out to her, said, oh, please come. You will like it. It's not what you worry it'll be. Trust me. Meaning, like, she played the character with a certain dignity that I think Anna was kind of proud of, you know, that she sort of came away with. And I think that scene that we talked about about, like, why it's important what they do, like, really spoke to Anna about, like, yes, that's right. This is why it's so important, you know? And this is. This is not some Frou Frou thing that we're doing. It's not some silly thing that we're doing. And, you know, so I think Meryl really sort of made it happen both inside the movie and outside the movie. Right.
- [42:07]
B
One of the things that the movie got very right about Miranda Priestly is that while all of the rest of the stuff, the female stuff at Runway were running around in the most ridiculous latest fashions, like, somehow Miranda Priestly kind of effortlessly elevates herself one level above that. Her clothes never look at me. They're just perfect at every given point. Her hair, I think, deserves, like, an Oscar on its own. It was so perfect. And maybe, I don't know, like, Tai is the first place in terms of power hair with Christine Lagarde. No.
- [42:49]
A
But I really do think that until the scene where she screws over the Stanley Tucci character. I really did kind of find myself weirdly rooting for the Miranda character. Like, I almost felt bad when she was maybe gonna get fired. You know, you kind of understand that. And then I. There was a tiny part of me that almost wishes the film hadn't gone quite that extreme and had allowed it to be a little bit more complex. But then I guess you could argue it the other way that you're seeing this person that, on the one hand, is very attractive in certain ways, but then is fairly awful in other ways.
- [43:19]
D
I think her going all in and not holding back on her sort of, you know, intensity is actually what sells it. Right. Like, that she believes in her role so much in what, you know, the character, what she's supposed to be doing, that you can't help but, like, yes, I'm kind of in awe of what you're about.
- [43:40]
A
You know, it almost reminded me of, like, when you see, like, an athlete that is really, really good and really, really arrogant. And there's a part of you that knows you're, like, not supposed to like this person. But you're like. You're just so good at what you do. And I feel like that was kind of what I felt watching this character, right?
- [43:55]
D
It's the gravitas, right? It's what you want in an editor in chief, right? You want a little bit of the asshole. Not too much, but just enough that you're like, yeah, he or she's got that swagger that makes me want to be a part of it somehow, right?
- [44:09]
B
And she has that thing where she turns to Stanley Tucci in the editorial meeting. She's like, oh, someone turned up to work today. The one time that she gives a compliment, like it's meaningful because it's coming from her. And everyone's like, they will work for a year in order to get that compliment.
- [44:26]
D
Right?
- [44:27]
C
And this layout for the Winter Wonderland spread, not wonderful yet.
- [44:34]
D
Okay, I'll look at it.
- [44:35]
C
What about Testino? Where are we on that?
- [44:37]
B
Zac Posen's doing some very sculptural suits, so I suggested that Testino shoot them at the Noguchi Garden.
- [44:44]
D
Perfect.
- [44:45]
C
Thank God somebody came to work today. What about accessories for April? One thought I had was enamel bangles, pendants, earrings. No, we did that two years ago. What else? Well, they're showing a lot of florals right now, so I was thinking I could use florals for spring. Groundbreaking.
- [45:04]
B
Okay, so final verdict on the Devil Wears Prada. We'll start with you, Anna.
- [45:11]
A
I mean, I can't say I loved it. However, of the films I haven't loved, this is the best.
- [45:20]
D
Ed, are we doing, like, scales of 1 to 10 or thumbs up?
- [45:23]
B
Yeah, whatever you want. We're not.
- [45:24]
D
Well, if we're gonna just do a binary thumbs up or thumbs down, I'll give it a thumbs up. But on a scale of one to ten, it's probably like six and a half, you know, maybe even a seven again. I just think it's just sort of the candy, right? Just sort of the capturing that. That sort of the fakery, you know, the desire, the kind of wanting to be that thing in life. I think it did that well.
- [45:49]
B
I think it did. I enjoyed it. I was surprised on rewatching it, like, how many actual laughs there were. It's. It works well as a comedy. It's tightly edited. It's very, very well edited. It's well directed. The fashion's fun, you know, the plot is not as candy floss thin as it might be. Like, the plot could be so much worse than it was. It has Meryl Streep in it, who's amazing. It has Anne Hathaway in it, who's amazing. It has Stanley Tucci in it, who's amazing. I am the world's biggest Emily Blunt fan. I don't think this is the world's best Emily Blunt movie. I really don't. And overall, I think, yeah, I agree. Maybe even more complimentary than you. I think it did capture that little slice of Manhattan media bubble life when Conde Nast was this aspirational place where everyone wanted to work. And I guess, like, since this podcast is vaguely timely, we can now mention the Conde Nast around this time spent, what was it, $10 million buying some stupid web startup called Reddit that no one had ever heard of.
- [47:03]
D
Yes.
- [47:06]
B
And now Reddit is worth $6 billion. It's majority owned by Conde Nast. And I would not be surprised to learn that the Conde stake in Reddit is worth more than the rest of Conde combined.
- [47:19]
D
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And the two entities could not be more different in just sort of sensibility and flavor and sort of what they're about. One is just the rude crowd, I guess, ultimately, and the other is sort of the high minded elite. So. But we know who's winning, right?
- [47:40]
B
I mean, we know what the valuations are saying, but we also know that Reddit has never made money. Right. Vogue has been a cash cow for decades.
- [47:48]
D
Absolutely. And still around the world, it has a lot of cachet, apparently. Vogue China, one of the few American media brands that actually been incredibly successful in China, it's got a huge audience out there and they're apparently doing pretty well. So, you know, it still means something.
- [48:05]
B
Right? And Vogue Italy is like the greatest Vogue of all. Is this insane achievement, the edgier.
- [48:12]
D
Yeah, it's the edgier Vogue in a way. Right?
- [48:15]
B
It's the one I remember. I was peripherally attached, let's say, to the fashion industry when I first moved to New York in 2001, I can't remember, but I remember someone telling me that Vogue Italy, nobody reads it except for everybody who matters, which is such, such a wonderful description. And people, you know, you would know actually, you know, if you were in, you know, Cafe Gitan or something and someone was sitting in the corner reading Vogue Italy. That was like all you needed to know about that.
- [48:45]
D
Yeah, that's the. Yeah, exactly. That person matters.
- [48:49]
B
Ed, thank you so much for coming on. We needed you for this one. You came through with flying colors. You get the handbag.
- [48:58]
D
Oh, wow.
- [49:00]
B
We will messenger you a Marc Jacobs handbag as a thank you for coming on this show in Cerulean Blue.
- [49:08]
D
I don't know if the Times will let me take that. But know the. The sentiment is. Is. Is wonderful.
- [49:14]
B
Thank you to Jess and Molly for producing. And we will be back with another movie next week on slate. Money goes to the movie.