Slate Money: Succession: S2E10: “Thank You For the Chicken”

Summary

Slate Money: Succession – S2E10 “Thank You For the Chicken”

Podcast: Slate Money
Host: Felix Salmon (Axios), with Emily Peck (HuffPost), Ed Lee (New York Times), special guest Tamara Adler
Date: October 14, 2019
Episode Focus: Recap and deep analysis of the Season 2 finale of Succession, “This Is Not For Tears”

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Episode Overview

The Slate Money panel gathers for a special analysis of the explosive second season finale of HBO’s Succession. They dissect the show’s themes of power, betrayal, family dynamics, and business machinations, while breaking down the key turning points, symbolism, and memorable lines from the episode “This Is Not For Tears.” Special guest Tamara Adler joins to lend insight, particularly into the symbolic foods of the episode.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Season Recap & Finale Reactions

• The team reflects on a season-long build-up to Kendall’s high-stakes betrayal of Logan.
• They marvel at the surprise and inevitability of the final scene, where Kendall publicly denounces his father.

Notable Quotes:

• “That ending. I feel like I saw it coming a little. I got that feeling this week that it was gonna be Logan as the blood sacrifice.” — Emily Peck (01:27)
• “Kendall taking the power back and just knifing his father in that last scene...” — Emily Peck (06:36)

Timestamps:

• 00:18–06:36 – Introductions and initial reactions
• 06:36–09:30 – Breakdown of Kendall’s arc and the “killer” line

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2. Symbolism: Food, Yachts, and Power

• Tamara Adler dives deep into the meaning of the chicken drumette on Logan’s plate—a symbol of his idiosyncrasies and dominance.
• The hosts link food choices to character and power dynamics throughout the show and especially this episode.

Notable Quotes:

• “That was obviously a drumette, which means that Logan's plate of food, which was delivered by a server with gloves...” — Tamara Adler (03:19)
• “These people don't actually care about food in any real way.” — Emily Peck (04:59)
• “...all the sort of highfalutin aspect of it is just—they're playing the part.” — Ed Lee (05:26)

Timestamps:

• 02:34–06:16 – Analysis of chicken symbolism, food faux pas, and what it says about the Roys

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3. The Blood Sacrifice: Who, How, and Why

• The group debates whether Kendall or Logan is the true “blood sacrifice.”
• Comparing Succession to real-world media families (Murdochs, Kalanick at Uber).
• Discussion of foreshadowing: Did Logan set himself up to be ousted?

Notable Quotes:

• “Does he smile because he's proud of his son?” — Emily Peck (13:48)
• “He sets up camp…which is why he smiles at the end.” — Felix Salmon (13:43)

Timestamps:

• 09:30–14:50 – Blood sacrifice debate; real-world analogues
• 14:50–17:00 – Cases in corporate America and lack of direct parallels

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4. Books, Easter Eggs, & Literary Layering

• The team uncovers literary references and meta-cameos:
  • Jerry reading Lullaby of Polish Girls (the real-life actress's novel)
  • Shiv reading Sally Rooney
  • Oedipal and Shakespearean motifs

Notable Quotes:

• “...when they're sitting around in on the deck of the yacht and Roman is sitting next to Jerry ... Jerry is reading a book ... It’s Lullaby of Polish Girls.” — Felix Salmon (10:05)
• “Shiv was reading Sally Rooney…which was pretty rad.” — Tamara Adler (10:31)

Timestamps:

• 09:50–11:00 – Book Easter eggs and thematic resonance

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5. Tom, Shiv, and Marital Dynamics

• A thorough look at Tom and Shiv’s confessional moment and the toll of their open marriage.
• Shiv’s ultimate (if begrudging) act of protection for Tom, and what this means for their power dynamic.

Notable Quotes:

• “I think a lot of the time I'm really pretty unhappy... I wonder if the sad I'd be without you would be less than the sad I get from being with you.” — Tom, via panel, (12:01)
• “Shiv is abusing Tom…She is her father in the relationship.” — Emily Peck (26:09)

Timestamps:

• 11:00–14:00 – Tom and Shiv’s cove confessional, and its effect
• 26:09–27:27 – Shiv’s cyclical abuse and its familial roots

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6. Roman’s Growth and Sibling Dynamics

• Roman’s personal transformation, signaled by his gravitas and green juice.
• His attempt at sibling connection post-trauma, asking: “Can we talk like real human beings?”

Notable Quotes:

• “He shines in this episode…he is the only one drinking a green juice.” — Tamara Adler (17:29)
• “Can we talk like real human beings?” — Roman, via panel (20:41)

Timestamps:

• 17:29–21:17 – Roman’s new maturity and family dynamics
• 21:17–21:48 – The impossibility of “normalcy” among the Roy siblings

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7. Corporate Machinations, Bankers, and the Proxy Vote

• Dissecting the failed Azerbaijani deal, investment banker Jamie/Jimmy Lee references.
• The futility and cyclical nature of the proxy vote as a running plot device.

Notable Quotes:

• “All the non family members, like, pointing at each other. Because the one rule is that if you're not a family member, you can never point at a family member.” — Felix Salmon (25:02)
• “These things do happen every day, and they can get dramatic, but it's largely very abstract.” — Ed Lee (48:41)

Timestamps:

• 22:02–25:02 – Investment banking and Jamie/Jimmy Lee
• 47:56–49:16 – The endless drama of the proxy vote

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8. Greg the Egg: From Sidekick to Player

• Exploration of Greg’s shifting allegiances (from Tom to Kendall) and his role in Kendall’s coup.
• The significance of Greg's growth and his increasingly savvy play among titans.

Notable Quotes:

• “Is Greg a killer?” — Tamara Adler (32:14)
• “If it is to be said, so it be, so it is.” — Greg’s memorable nervous congressional testimony, via panel (35:30)

Timestamps:

• 32:03–35:55 – Greg’s manila envelope and partnership with Kendall
• 35:09–36:19 – Greg’s bumbling congressional testimony

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9. Layered Motifs & Endgame Speculation

• Religious and classical allusions: Oedipus, the Judas Kiss, Christ imagery.
• Contrasting character self-perceptions (Do they think they’re good people?) and the cyclical grip of power.
• Speculation for season three: Will Logan regain power? Will the car accident resurface? New alliances?

Notable Quotes:

• “...there's a shot of Kendall in the yacht pool with his arms...like, he's gonna be the one that's crucified. But then no—Judas Kiss.” — Emily Peck (43:26)
• “All bad people think they're good people. They all persuade themselves that they're good people.” — Felix Salmon (54:11)

Timestamps:

• 41:21–45:26 – Oedipus and Judas Kiss discussion
• 54:11–56:36 – Character morality, self-image, and why the show is compelling

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Kendall’s betrayal live on air:
  “The truth is that my father is a malignant presence, a bully and a liar. And he was fully, personally, aware of these events for many years and made efforts to hide and cover up.” — (07:29) “This is the day his reign ends.” — Kendall via press conference (62:58)

• Tom’s heartbreak to Shiv:
  “I wonder if the sad I'd be without you would be less than the sad I get from being with you.” — Tom (12:07)

• On Greg’s testimony:
  “Yes. If it is to be said, so it be, so it is.” — Greg in Congress, via panel reenactment (35:34)

• On the cyclical battle for power:
  “He’s done this three times now… Now he’s doing it a third time.” — Felix Salmon on Kendall’s repeated attempts (28:47)

• On cyclical nature and class:
  “Anybody who'd want to run this empire needs to be discounted completely...they're all so bad, and that's why they keep on not being able to succeed.” — Tamara Adler (55:07)

• On the Roy’s inability to connect:
  “Can we just, like, talk like real ... humans?” — Roman, via panel (20:41)

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Character & Plot Deep Dives

• Kendall’s Arc:
  Season-long transformation from broken “meat puppet” to public adversary—driven by psychological abuse, culminating in the ultimate act of rebellion and truth-telling.

• Logan’s Manipulation:
  Orchestrates sadistic “blood sacrifice” tests, pushes each child to the brink, and is ultimately (seemingly willingly) set up for a dramatic ouster.

• Sibling Relationships:
  Dynamics between Roman, Shiv, Kendall—cycles of trauma, codependence, and desperate hopes for “normal” relationships—even as business poisons them.

• Tom & Shiv:
  A marriage of power plays and emotional brutality; Tom’s heartbreak is the trigger for Shiv’s minor redemption.

• Greg’s Coming of Age:
  Greg evolves from comic relief to consequential player, allying with Kendall and holding onto key evidence.

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Season 3 Speculation

• Will Logan fight back?
  “He's absolutely gonna fight his son to come back.” — Ed Lee (63:47)
• Will the car accident come back into play?
  “Absolutely. It's gonna be something. It's gonna take some form in this next season.” — Ed Lee (63:56)
• Will they ever actually hold the proxy vote?
  Panel consensus: this MacGuffin may never resolve, the tension is the point.
• Will any Roy child “win”?
  Open—Roman’s new seriousness, Shiv’s ambiguity, Kendall’s bravado; the balance of power may keep shifting.

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Final Reflections

• Why Do Audiences Relate?
  Despite the Roys’ villainy and privilege, their deeply human flaws—naked ambition, insecurity, desperation for love—anchor the drama. Their struggles are Shakespearean, reflecting the darkest aspects of human nature when all material needs are met.

End Quote:
“…if you’re going to live a full human life, you will live it as a king or a queen, right, and their flaws would ultimately show our flaws as humans…” — Ed Lee (58:27)

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This summary covers all essential discussion points, key character analyses, standout moments, and the rich, analytical tone of the Slate Money team’s deep-dive into the Succession S2 finale.

Transcript

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

The following podcast contains explicit language.

[Felix Salmon]

Hello and goodbye. I think this is it. This is so sad. This is the end of Succession Season 2. I don't think it's goodbye for the entire succession Sleep money recap podcast, but this is the end of the season. Now is when you go back and start rewatching the whole thing from the beginning of season one, I guess.

[Emily Peck]

Definitely. And re listen to the podcast, obviously, as well.

[Felix Salmon]

But let me introduce ourselves. I am Felix Salmon of Axios. Emily Peck is here from HuffPost.

[Ed Lee]

Hello.

[Felix Salmon]

And because what we like to do in true succession style is circle back and recapitulate attempts by Kendall to stab his father, we are recapitulating and circling back and bringing back the one and only Ed Lee of the New York Times.

[Ed Lee]

Hello.

[Felix Salmon]

Who told us everything he knew on episode one.

[Ed Lee]

The primer I gave. I offered my version of a primer.

[Felix Salmon]

And so therefore you're just gonna sit here and say, I have nothing more to add.

[Ed Lee]

I've done my take. It's full and complete and in depth. There's so much to talk about.

[Felix Salmon]

There will be so much to talk about. Because obviously. Oh, my God.

[Emily Peck]

Oh, my God.

[Ed Lee]

Oh, my God.

[Emily Peck]

That ending. I feel like I saw it coming a little. A little bit. I got that feeling this week that it was gonna be Logan as the blood sacrifice. Felix just. He replied to my tweet, speculating on this.

[Ed Lee]

We're gonna have to.

[Emily Peck]

By saying just.

[Ed Lee]

No, we're gonna have to get into a semantic something about this one. Yeah, a lot to embarrass.

[Felix Salmon]

We are going to get into this, but before we do, we need to get very excited about the fact that Tamara Adler is here. Hello. Hello. This is your opportunity to plug your podcast.

[Tamara Adler]

I have a podcast coming out really soon.

[Felix Salmon]

It's at the beginning of November, November 1st. And it's about food.

[Tamara Adler]

It's about food. But even better, it's about everything you think about food and the fact that it isn't true.

[Felix Salmon]

Okay, so let me tell you something.

[Ed Lee]

What's the title of your podcast?

[Tamara Adler]

It's called Food, actually.

[Emily Peck]

Where are we? Where will we be able to talk?

[Felix Salmon]

Oh, and then it gets complicated because it's on Luminary.

[Tamara Adler]

It's on Luminary, but so many other great shows are on Luminary that it is worth subscribing. And you actually don't even need to decide now, because after you listen to the first episode of Food, actually for free, you're gonna be hooked.

[Felix Salmon]

You're gonna be hooked. So the thing I believe about Food I believe two things about food. I believe, number one, that one shouldn't order a full bottle of Burgundy for breakfast. And number two, that one shouldn't eat someone else's chicken.

[Tamara Adler]

How about number three?

[Emily Peck]

Thank you for the chicken.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah. That was obviously a chicken wing, which is a weird thing.

[Felix Salmon]

It was. There was a bone in the middle of it.

[Ed Lee]

Right.

[Tamara Adler]

That was a chicken wing. It was the part. So a chicken wing is broken up into two pieces. There's the drumette.

[Felix Salmon]

And then this is why Tamaran needs to be on slate money.

[Emily Peck]

I didn't see this coming when I thought about this.

[Tamara Adler]

There's the drumette, which is the part that's closest to the chicken's body. And then there's the other part, which has two bones.

[Emily Peck]

The other.

[Tamara Adler]

That was obviously a drumette, which means that Logan's plate of food, which was delivered by a server with gloves.

[Felix Salmon]

Wearing gloves on.

[Tamara Adler]

What?

[Felix Salmon]

What?

[Tamara Adler]

There was a drumette on the side of the plate. There are a lot of ways to read that.

[Felix Salmon]

So tell me how to read that. Because, like, while we were all obsessing about the, you know, obvious symbolism of the yacht, you are looking at the obvious symbolism of the drumette. It reminded me, actually a little bit of Steve Schwarzman's crab claw. Steve Schwarzman famously would order king crab claws without the rest of the king crab, because the rest of the king crab, it gets a bit fiddly to get the meat out. So he's like, just give me the claw, because that's where.

[Ed Lee]

That's what we all want anyway.

[Felix Salmon]

That's what we all want. Enemy. Anyway, Ignore the rest of the king crab. Like, obviously, Logan just loves that one piece of the chicken, the drummette. So he can do basically exactly what Tom did. And so he. This is what he gets for lunch is it looked like a Caesar salad, something like that. With a little drumette on the side.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah. Or maybe a cup, a few drumettes. So maybe when he asks for it, he says, you know, I'll have the thing with the chicken. And then they know to just give him the lunch, but with a kind of little pile of drumettes on the side. That's just his idiosyncratic.

[Ed Lee]

And maybe that's all he really eats anyway.

[Tamara Adler]

He might just eat the chicken.

[Felix Salmon]

It could well be like a Warren Buffett thing where, you know, you're a billionaire, but ultimately you have relatively low brow taste in food.

[Tamara Adler]

We just know that because of the pizza incident at Summer Palace. We know that he has very low brow taste and he kind of uses it as a tool.

[Emily Peck]

I mean, these people don't actually care about food in any real way. I don't think, as I've watched episode after episode after.

[Felix Salmon]

I mean, Connor hyperdecants.

[Emily Peck]

He hyper decants.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah. I mean, how can you not hyper decant? Right.

[Emily Peck]

They drink, for sure, and they care about drinking in their Japanese whiskey, et cetera, but they do not care about food. They throw out shrimp and steak and order pizza, and then they hardly eat every time, you know, they have to sit down and pummel each other.

[Ed Lee]

A lot of theater, right. And how they live as rich people.

[Emily Peck]

Yes, Right.

[Ed Lee]

I think that's sort of the idea that really, they just want the pizza and the cocaine and then that's it. Maybe Burgundy for breakfast, but everything else, all the sort of highfalutin aspect of it is just. It's just they're playing the part.

[Felix Salmon]

I have to say, I was slightly disappointed when you actually did see. You didn't see the Burgundy arrive, but you did see Connor with his wine glass in front of him in that, like, you know, amazing breakfast scene. And I was mildly disappointed, but also, it just reinforced everything I knew about Connor to see that the Burgundy was red. I feel like if you're going to. If you're going to order Burgundy for breakfast, the crew on the yacht should just understand that the right kind of Burgundy to have for breakfast is obviously white Burgundy, which in any case is a superior drink to red Burgundy. But that's. That's an entire.

[Emily Peck]

We're going deep on this.

[Felix Salmon]

We're going deep on the Burgundy because, frankly, what else was there to talk about in this episode? Almost nothing happened.

[Ed Lee]

It's such a disappointing finale. My goodness.

[Felix Salmon]

So we're just gonna have to talk about chicken drumsticks.

[Ed Lee]

Chicken drumsticks. Burgundy for breakfast. Red, not white, though. It should have been white. I agree with you.

[Felix Salmon]

If he had any taste, which he doesn't.

[Emily Peck]

So this whole season has been building us to this moment of Kendall taking the power back and just knifing his father in that last scene. Right. I mean, he's broken down at the beginning. He's a robot. I looked at the plans, and my dad's plan was better. He was totally programmed. So we think in the season final, he's going to be totally programmed to. Alas, no. He has that amazing butt. You know, he says, they wanted me to, you know, come out here and take the blame.

[Felix Salmon]

And Carolina is like, the look of sheer panic in her eyes, and she's on the phone going, fuck, fuck, fuck.

[Emily Peck]

It was A beautiful thing to behold.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

And it has been suggested I would be a suitable figure to absorb the anger and concern.

[Ed Lee]

But.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

The truth is that my father is a malignant presence, a bully and a liar. And he was fully, personally aware of these events for many years and made efforts to hide and cover up.

[Emily Peck]

If the episode had just ended with Kendall, you know, again, like, just beaten down, taking the blame, it would have defeated the whole season, would have been a bust.

[Ed Lee]

Well, it sort of was the bookend right from the very first episode where he had that really sort of, you know, kind of meager, you know, press conference where he was. He was pulled out of his. His Icelandic mud bath, and he's like, sort of, can I? Can I. They're like, no, you can't finish. You need to go to this now. He gets the card. He does his thing. Just very sort of. Kind of contrite and beaten down. Yep. And then here's a different Kendall, which is. We've seen him built up through the whole season.

[Felix Salmon]

He didn't really. He. I mean, there was a character arc for Kendall over this season, but in every single episode, in one way or another, he was still a broken Kendall. And, you know, that was what Naomi says to him on the yacht. Right. Is that. You know, and you could see in one way or another, Logan beating him down and breaking him. Like he wasn't broken enough at the beginning that he needed to continually be rebroken by inviting. By getting dragged back into the kid's house.

[Emily Peck]

He sent Naomi away. Look, Logan, I was wondering, I mean, was Kendall always going to do this or what happened on the yacht to sort of provoke him? Was it sending Naomi away? Was it. You're not a killer.

[Felix Salmon]

It was. You're not a killer.

[Ed Lee]

You're not a killer.

[Felix Salmon]

It was not a killer.

[Tamara Adler]

The sacrifice story, I mean, that. That story told to you would. That would force anybody's hand to the.

[Emily Peck]

No real. When he said, there's no real person involved. Don't even worry about how you did the manslaughter thing.

[Tamara Adler]

No. When he tells.

[Emily Peck]

That was.

[Felix Salmon]

No. When he talked about the Incas and said, like, what else could you love so much that would cause the sun.

[Emily Peck]

To rise in the morning, inadvertently inspiring him.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

Which, interestingly, he put in the mouth of Marcia.

[Ed Lee]

Well, I think Marcia has. I think her sort of. I bought that because I think she presents sort of this broader worldview of things. Right.

[Felix Salmon]

And so she has a little bit of literacy.

[Ed Lee]

Right, Exactly. Because Logan is sort of like savages. Right. She's like, well, Come on, let's take a closer look at this. Right. There's a bigger picture in terms of what that meant for these people.

[Felix Salmon]

Can I also, by the way, since we're talking about literary sophistication, I need to drop this in here. There's an Easter egg when they're sitting around in on the deck of the yacht and Roman is sitting next to Jerry and speculating that Frank is going to be the blood sacrifice.

[Ed Lee]

And Jerry's reading a book.

[Felix Salmon]

And Jerry is reading a book. Ed, what book is.

[Ed Lee]

I don't know. Someone's gonna tell me. Which book.

[Emily Peck]

Polish Girls.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

The Lullaby of Polish.

[Ed Lee]

And who is the Polish girl?

[Emily Peck]

It's Karolina.

[Ed Lee]

There we go.

[Felix Salmon]

Real life Karolina, whose name is Dagmara Dinchic.

[Ed Lee]

I love that. It's also. The character is a press agent who's written a book. You know, if we go out into the real world. Right. And coming back into this fictional world.

[Felix Salmon]

I mean, I love that.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah. That's the whole thing.

[Emily Peck]

Good job.

[Tamara Adler]

Shiv was reading Sally Rooney.

[Emily Peck]

Yes, she was.

[Tamara Adler]

Which was pretty rad.

[Emily Peck]

Trendy, I guess.

[Tamara Adler]

Well. And very thematically appropriate for who she is. For who she is, for what was going on between her and Tom. Sally Rooney's, you know, stories are obviously full of drama, infidelity, you know, love, tension. And there they are in the next cove. Another cove. One more. What's his name? Julian?

[Emily Peck]

Julius.

[Tamara Adler]

Julius. The next cove. Julius.

[Felix Salmon]

Anyway, but like, in any case, there was a sea urchin. Any cove with a sea urchin is a suboptimal, imperfect cove.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah, that's clearly true.

[Felix Salmon]

So you should probably pick the next one over that has no sea urchin.

[Emily Peck]

I mean, this was a great episode for Tom, Shiv, everything.

[Felix Salmon]

It really was.

[Emily Peck]

We have been wondering all season, like, what is happening in this marriage? Why are they doing this?

[Felix Salmon]

And finally, we've been wondering that since season one.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah.

[Emily Peck]

And finally it sort of breaks open in the COVID And, you know, Tom really. He uses the threesome to really get into it.

[Ed Lee]

Confessional.

[Emily Peck]

What does he say? I'm not gonna be happier. I can't tell.

[Ed Lee]

I wonder. Yeah. If I would be sadder, you know, without you than I am.

[Emily Peck]

I am with you, basically, is what he said.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

I think a lot of the time, if I think about it. I think a lot of the time I'm really pretty unhappy.

[Tamara Adler]

What are you saying?

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

I don't know. I love you.

[Felix Salmon]

I do. I just.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

I wonder if. I wonder if the sad I'd be without you would be less than the sad I get from being with you.

[Emily Peck]

And I think actually pushed her to do something that was maybe not good for her, which is defend him.

[Ed Lee]

So she's made her own sacrifice. I think.

[Emily Peck]

Yes, she does.

[Ed Lee]

And if she sacrificed her own position with her dad by just saying, it can't be Tom, anyone but Tom. Not that Tom was going to be, necessarily, but you could see her sort of putting herself on the line.

[Felix Salmon]

Well, what happened? The quote is where Logan goes up to Shiv, and there's still this kind of glimmer of possibility that she could take over from him, because obviously, Rhea's not gonna take over. And he presents her with, quote, the sort of tough choice people need to be able to make. And her reply to that is, I can't choose dad. And, like, at that point, she's basically saying, don't give me the job.

[Ed Lee]

I can't do it. Yeah. I can't make that. I can't make that tough call. Which is sort of what this whole episode has really been about. And I don't know if we want to get to it now, but I think there is this issue, this argument over who the blood sacrifice really was. Because even though we see it's Logan at the end, there is this moment in the beginning where he's on the road and he's talking to a shareholder where the shareholder's basically like, it needs to be you. And he goes, let me think about that. Right. And you kind of wonder, like, it seems like it's set up to be there. He knew it was going to be him anyway.

[Felix Salmon]

Right. That was the foreshadowing.

[Ed Lee]

In other words, that was inevitable. So he required someone to make that call. No one was doing it.

[Tamara Adler]

And he.

[Ed Lee]

Until the.

[Felix Salmon]

He sets up.

[Emily Peck]

He wasn't gonna do it.

[Ed Lee]

He sets up camp.

[Felix Salmon]

Which is why he smiles at the end.

[Ed Lee]

Yes. Right.

[Emily Peck]

Well, does he smile because. Does he smile because he's proud of his son?

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah.

[Tamara Adler]

Because he's like, that's how I read it.

[Felix Salmon]

Because he was like, if I just step down, it's not nearly as effective as if Kendall knifes me.

[Emily Peck]

Well, maybe it stays in the family. Cause Kendall gets to keep control.

[Ed Lee]

Gets to keep control. And, you know, it's. It feels meaningful. Right. You're right, son. Doing. And it's just. I think that's sort of. There's this kind of great Shakespearean, you know, Athenian tragedy aspect to that whole episode. I think it's no mistake. They're not that far from Greece.

[Emily Peck]

He's basically asking his son to do It. But he can't ask him. He can't ask it and he can't himself step down. Cuz he has too much of an ego. And it's clear when you, if you're following the story and we all follow corporate America that it had to be Logan. He had to be the one to step down. He ran this company like he's responsible. There's no other.

[Felix Salmon]

He was like the, he was the Travis Kalanick figure basically. He was the guy who was like. Who set the culture for the entire company.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

And the fish rots from the head down. Like it had to be him.

[Emily Peck]

It had to be him.

[Tamara Adler]

Is there any example in the real world of a sacrifice of a firstborn son in the business world?

[Ed Lee]

In corporate America?

[Tamara Adler]

In corporate America.

[Ed Lee]

I was actually thinking about that when it happened. Like this is a departure from reality because I can't think of one. I'm sure there has been, but I'm.

[Tamara Adler]

Trying to think of.

[Ed Lee]

I really can't think of. Of an example where something like that happened. Where like a family owned corporate entity and someone was first son or second son, whichever blood person, blood relative was sacrificed for, you know, your own sins essentially or the other way around. So I haven't. Because the closest, not the closest, but the one in recent memory was the whole Murdoch hacking scandal where there was testimony in front of Parliament and you saw both Rupert and James, his son, you know, in front, and James doing his best to sort of explain his role. Non role in this hacking thing.

[Felix Salmon]

I just didn't read the email.

[Ed Lee]

Read the email. Right. For those of us who cared about that specific moment. And there was the whole pieing incident as well, which that is a stranger truth than fiction. But neither of them were sacrificed. Neither of them ultimately took the blame for it. It was Rebecca Brooks who did, who.

[Felix Salmon]

Was kind of a quasi daughter figure.

[Ed Lee]

Quasi daughter figure who ran Murdoch's UK newspapers. She was sacrificed but then brought back into the fold after what it was like two years of.

[Emily Peck]

But what about James Murdoch? Like I feel like he emerge from that pretty.

[Ed Lee]

He. So he was the closest to getting burned. Right. And. But it never really happened.

[Emily Peck]

That's in Vice.

[Felix Salmon]

Now he invests in Vice, which we have mentioned this on, on the podcast before, but that his investment vehicle for investing in Vice is Looper, which is the wolf who raised Romulus and Remus. Yeah, right.

[Emily Peck]

Amazing.

[Felix Salmon]

And there was that great tweet when he invested in Vice and someone tweeted it out saying like I've seen their plan and my dad's Plan is better.

[Emily Peck]

Didn't the Valter episode also, like, kind of set it set me up to prepare, like, for Kendall to come in at the end and do something?

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah, because when Logan says, you're not a killer, you flashback to episode two, and you're like, well, he was a killer.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah, he killed.

[Ed Lee]

True. But he was doing it at the behest of his dad. Right.

[Felix Salmon]

He wasn't even, weirdly, at the behest of.

[Ed Lee]

Of Roman.

[Felix Salmon]

Right, right. And Roman, like that when he gets offered the COO job, and he's like, well, am I gonna have that? Like, what did he call him? Pusillanimous. Like, it wasn't pusillanimous.

[Ed Lee]

Pusillanimous.

[Felix Salmon]

It was something like that, you know, Frank, like, breathing down my shoulder. And Logan's like, now he's off to clean up. Grizzly. So you're on your own.

[Emily Peck]

So, Roman, in this episode, let's discuss.

[Felix Salmon]

He seems to be.

[Ed Lee]

He shines. He shines. Yes.

[Tamara Adler]

Because this is my role. Did you guys notice what he was drinking at the breakfast table?

[Ed Lee]

Oh, I missed this. You're gonna have to use a green juice.

[Felix Salmon]

Oh.

[Ed Lee]

You see?

[Tamara Adler]

So he is.

[Felix Salmon]

He's cleaned up.

[Tamara Adler]

He is cleaned up. He's sitting there. He's the only one drinking a green juice. It probably has, like, protein powder in it.

[Ed Lee]

You know, he is bee pollen and. Yes, bee pollen.

[Emily Peck]

No Burgundy.

[Tamara Adler]

No coffee. Collecting the energy. Yeah, no Burgundy.

[Ed Lee]

He's. He is the hippie in this episode.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah.

[Emily Peck]

And I bet I wouldn't be surprised.

[Tamara Adler]

If, like, at home, he has been drinking green juice with no one watching. Maybe Tabitha goes into the other room. I think he has green juice on a regular basis. It's part of his. Like, there is somewhere in there, there's, like, a healthy.

[Ed Lee]

So it's like, can we talk.

[Felix Salmon]

Talking about Tabitha. Can we talk about the plus ones who are and who are not on the boat? Because obviously there's a whole subconscious.

[Emily Peck]

I do want to get back to Roman.

[Felix Salmon]

Naomi. Okay, but where's Tabitha? Where's Tabitha? Where the fuck is Marcia?

[Emily Peck]

She's got shoe left.

[Ed Lee]

She. But she's very purposefully not there. That's. That's the point of that episode.

[Emily Peck]

He wakes up in the bed, and he looks over and it's empty. And it's like. But has she left him, or is.

[Felix Salmon]

She just not on the boat?

[Tamara Adler]

No, she left him.

[Ed Lee]

She's left him.

[Emily Peck]

She left him.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah.

[Ed Lee]

What's also. Yeah, she's left him.

[Tamara Adler]

He broke something, remember?

[Emily Peck]

Yeah, he says, I miss her.

[Felix Salmon]

He actually says he misses her. And I mean, there was that thing where she's like, you've broken something. And there was clearly, like, that was them fighting for the first time that we've really seen them fighting. But, you know, it's a big step from, like, you know, you did something. You never told me about the fact that you're gonna name someone as CEO to I'm going to leave you.

[Emily Peck]

I mean, he was also, I think, sleeping with Rhea or trying to.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah. You know, that's. I still wonder about that. There's just the way. It's the way they put that show together in terms of that whole. Ishi, are they or aren't they? I think it's purposely sort of not clear. Right. You're supposed to sort of as. As the audience just. You're. You're wonder guessing. And then I think Marcia sort of either senses it or even if it.

[Felix Salmon]

Actually happens and senses it. Have you been well?

[Ed Lee]

But I think her whole thing is like, I don't care whether you actually have or not. The point is you've sort of. You've broken something here. Right. You've. You've sort of. It's not just Rhea. It's that you're doing all these things and not letting me in on it. Yeah. Treating me like one of your kids, etc. And I think that's really. It's been building up.

[Felix Salmon]

But I think she'll be back for season three.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah. I mean, otherwise they wouldn't keep talking about her so much. Right. I mean, she's been in. Since she's gone. She's been a bigger presence maybe arguably, than since she was there.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah. We need her. I mean, she always plays this really unique. She kind of is, like, totemic for, like, wisdom or, like, other. You know, she has these, like, very strong and weird or just being like.

[Felix Salmon]

Old world and the sort of.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah.

[Tamara Adler]

Like, symbolizes Burgundian.

[Emily Peck]

But to go back to Roman a little, it really does seem like he's come back with some kind of wisdom. And then he's sitting on the yacht deck with his siblings, and he says, after this is over, can we just, like, talk like real.

[Tamara Adler]

Humans?

[Emily Peck]

And they're like, can we talk? What is he saying? We talk like real human.

[Ed Lee]

Like, you know, like. Like regular people. Like, normal.

[Tamara Adler]

Like normal.

[Ed Lee]

Normal, Right. That was the operative word.

[Emily Peck]

And it was like, oh, no, you can't.

[Felix Salmon]

I did think.

[Ed Lee]

And I thought, you know, they were gonna vacuum out my innards and fill me with concrete or something if we come through this. Is there A thing where we like talk to each other about stuff normally. You wanna talk to each other normally?

[Felix Salmon]

Okay.

[Ed Lee]

You mean talk about the b. Yeah. We can't talk about the b.

[Felix Salmon]

We can't talk about.

[Tamara Adler]

Feelings.

[Ed Lee]

How am I the mature one here? We don't have any feelings.

[Tamara Adler]

What are you talking about?

[Ed Lee]

Who is this helping? You know he had this near death experience, right? So he finally had this moment of like, oh, crap. It's like, this is real and this is dangerous and like, what's my life about?

[Emily Peck]

It's like his gravitas.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah, exactly. So he's, you know, and he shines in this episode where he's just like, you know what, dad, this is not. I don't think this is real.

[Felix Salmon]

He's. I'm a bullshitter. Yeah, I know, I know from bullshit.

[Ed Lee]

Exactly. So that was the smart business call, right? You're not going to hang it on this thing.

[Felix Salmon]

And meanwhile you went after Jamie. Yeah, Jamie is like the, the. And he just like, he's like, yeah, I know what's happening internally in your bank.

[Emily Peck]

Yes.

[Felix Salmon]

To get this, you're desperate for the deal. Jamie just becomes crushed. He gets excommunicated from the island on the first boat out.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah.

[Emily Peck]

Did you say goodnight, sweet ladies or something? Like, what was that? He was just so crushed by Roman. It was a beautiful thing to behold. When he said, what you're gonna make like 100 million on this?

[Felix Salmon]

He's like, I don't know what to say about. I don't know what to say to that. And Roman just so don't say anything.

[Ed Lee]

It was like this searing indictment of basically investment bankers too.

[Felix Salmon]

Right?

[Ed Lee]

That was that whole. His whole role.

[Felix Salmon]

Because he has, because he, if, if he pushes this deal. Like the idea is just to be clear about this, that the Azerbaijani, Roy, you know, state something, something will put up $10 billion and then Jamie will raise another, what like $30 billion debt?

[Ed Lee]

Something like that. Some insane amount.

[Felix Salmon]

Because he is like this like Jimmy Lee figure who can just like make a couple phone calls and raise billions and billions of dollars in definite.

[Ed Lee]

I think Jimmy Lee is probably the accurate. Yeah, I was, I was racking my brain for who is the closest sort of big figure investment banker type that sort of. I think it's Jimmy Lee.

[Emily Peck]

Where's Jimmy Lee from?

[Ed Lee]

Well, he's. Where's he at?

[Felix Salmon]

He was at J.P. morgan.

[Ed Lee]

J.P. morgan? Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

Didn't he die? Oh God, I think he died.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[Felix Salmon]

But yeah, he was this legendary like JP Morgan, investment banker who. Or Financier I guess you would connected.

[Ed Lee]

To everyone, knew everyone.

[Felix Salmon]

And like, you could just phone him up and say, jimmy, I need to borrow $25 billion. Can you put this together for me? And he put together like an ab loan, put together a syndicate of banks and boom, now it's your $25 billion. And you might have to pay up for it, but you would have your 25 billion. And Jamie Laird is clearly which who, by the way, he's the only person who people. It's so confusing. Half the time they call him Laird and half the time they call him Jamie. And I'm like, why? Like what?

[Emily Peck]

I was so confused.

[Felix Salmon]

Just pick one name and stick with it. Jesus Christ.

[Emily Peck]

On the podcast, I was like, is he Laird? And everyone was like, he's Jamie. And I was like, who is he? But now he's gone. And he said, someone's getting tossed out of the balloon. Someone is likely going to jail. Good night. Good night, sweet ladies, and good luck.

[Tamara Adler]

Was that a reference to anything? I don't know. It sounded like it. Good night, sweet ladies.

[Felix Salmon]

I mean, it sounds like the end of Hamlet, right? Like Goodnight, sweet prince.

[Ed Lee]

But I think that's the reference they're going for. Yeah.

[Emily Peck]

And then the someone's getting tossed out of the balloon. If you watch the after the episode kind of thing, Jesse Armstrong was saying that putting them all on the yacht together was a version of the balloon argument. When you're all in the hot air balloon and it's losing it, who gets tossed off? And you have to argue over who gets tossed off the balloon. So that's what the biggest.

[Ed Lee]

Well, there's that great scene where they're all around the table, like, pointing fingers at each other. Who it should be that wonderful little comment all the way around.

[Felix Salmon]

All of like the non family members, like, pointing at each other. Because the one rule is that if you're not a family member, you can never point at a family member.

[Ed Lee]

Right?

[Emily Peck]

And it's so weak. Like in reality. Just leave this company. Why do they want to stay at Waystar Royco at this point? It's a sinking. It is a sinking ship. It is a deflating balloon.

[Ed Lee]

I think it is exactly the right question.

[Emily Peck]

Jerry want to stay.

[Ed Lee]

But I think Jerry. But also I think the Frank character, I think really sort of encapsulates it, which is he comes back basically on his knees. It's because they can't not. It's just that lifestyle and sort of that proximity to power and having some Ansley power of your own. It's like, it's really hard to walk away from. And yes you could. I'm sure he's already rich on his own. But like, they don't do it for that. They do it for the power and self definition.

[Tamara Adler]

I mean, they're in a deeply abusive relationship. They're all in an abusive relationship. So they're codependent with this maniac and they've been defined by it. They've been defined by these relationships to Logan for so long that I can't even imagine what they would like. They probably don't know who they are sitting there.

[Emily Peck]

And that's what Shiv is doing to Tom. She is like recreating. She is her father in the relationship and she's making.

[Ed Lee]

She's abusing him in.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah, she's abusing Tom. She's like, gives him, makes him have an open marriage that he obviously doesn't want. Tries to force him into a three way, humiliates him in front of the family, offers him up to be the blood sacrifice at that breakfast. And then like finally pushes him to the limit where he has to kind of like fight back a little bit. But it's clearly some kind of recreation and she needs to be like the powerful one in their relationship.

[Felix Salmon]

You mean when you're hanging out with your husband, you don't call him a meat puppet?

[Emily Peck]

My meat puppet isn't working.

[Ed Lee]

But then she has this moment of, you know, being human where she goes to her dad, said it can't be Tom and I can't do this. I have to do it.

[Felix Salmon]

But only after Tom has his moment of being human and this is threatening the relationship. This is the weird thing, like Tom's reaction to being shat upon by Shiv and by everyone really is to just shit on everyone below him to, you know, use human beings as footstools and stuff. Which is clear. Not his natural inclination. It's just what he feels he needs to do in this kind of incredibly fucked up world.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah, he's been destroyed by the world just like all of them. Just like Shiv has. Her arc this season has been really interesting. Cause it was like she was on top of it all at the beginning, gets sucked into the world and now by this finale, is just destroyed. She lost her shot. She comes off looking weak. She used to be like the smart one, remember? I don't know.

[Felix Salmon]

But she's the one who winds up like sitting next to Logan at the end, not being across the cruise scandal.

[Ed Lee]

Like it like kind of like what are. But there is this moment of like, what are you doing? And you can see it in Logan's face, like, oh, he's doing the thing. I think there's, like, I made this comment earlier about there's play acting, right? I think this family and pretty much most of the characters have been play acting, like the role that they think they're supposed to play without really realizing it. Logan is the only one who is ruthless enough to know, like, here's what you really need to be and what you need do to. To do. Kendall finally captures that at the end. I think that is the point of. In a lot of ways, the series is that are you just sort of fitting out this role of the, you know, the princeling, and this is what you're supposed to be doing. And Roman sort of. He's the court jester, but he, like, understands it's mostly bullshit. So he sort of kind of finds his way. He has a moment of reality where he's like, oh, this is a real thing, and this is not a good deal, and, dad, don't take it. And Shiv recognizes that she's not this person either. And then Kendall finally says, you know, I am the first person.

[Felix Salmon]

He's done this three times now, right? He tried the boardroom coup, which was him, like, really seizing the day, and that fails. He then tried, and he then joins Stewie and Sandy, and that's him seizing the day and making the bold move, and that fails. Now he's doing it a third time.

[Ed Lee]

But I feel like this time is different because I feel like. I think he presents, I mean, the closest. In a lot of ways for me as a reporter, in terms of looking at this world was James Murdoch. In that he was very much like this technocrat, right? Very smart about the business, understands balance sheets and finances and how you operate something. And it's more or less what Logan is telling him. Oh, you're smart, you know what to do, but you don't have that killer thing. And I think those earlier attempts to take over were like these sort of technocratic moves. They were sort of like these. Well, if you do A, B and.

[Felix Salmon]

C, Stewie is a technocrat, right?

[Ed Lee]

Stewie is a technocrat, right? And so I think it's just like.

[Felix Salmon]

This is all about just persuading a majority of shareholders that they can get a little bit more money, right?

[Ed Lee]

It's like counting the votes, right? Whereas, you know, Sandy, which we haven't seen, you know, unfortunately. But, like, he is that power behind the throne, behind that throne, which is. It's really. He's the. Not the Rupert Murdoch, but the. Who do we call him before John Malone? He's the John Malone. He's the dark John Malone, by the way, who Al Gore once referred to as the Darth Vader of cable. So anyway, my point being is that he and Stewie teaming up are like college buddies pulling a prank almost. Right? It sort of didn't feel that real. This felt real. This felt like, you know what this is? The only way to seize power is to take it.

[Felix Salmon]

But also, that kind of the whole sort of, like, quasi syphilitic aspect of Sandy, like, reminds me a little bit of Sumner. Reminds me a little bit of, like, Robert Maxwell.

[Ed Lee]

I think there's a bit of Robert Maxwell, I think. Also, I think Logan is an interesting character in the sense that I always see him as sort of this perfect hybrid of Sumner and Rupert. Sumner was a yeller, or is a yeller still technically? Right. Rupert is not. He's not a yeller, but he's super. He can be super difficult in the way that Logan is difficult. But you sort of take that combination of sort of shrewd and cold, but also a yeller. And then you've got, like, this crazy, crazy mega media mogul that neither one reality of either Rupert Murdoch or.

[Felix Salmon]

And that Kendall goes like. So on the record. Nothing has ever been more on the record in the history of on the record. And he says, the truth is, my father is a malignant presence, a bully and a liar.

[Emily Peck]

It is the truth.

[Felix Salmon]

Which, if he'd said that. If he'd said that off the record to the biographer, like, that would have been the ending. But since he says it on the record to a whole press conference, and.

[Emily Peck]

He, like, does it, like, it's like he could lose the whole thing. Like, it's a very. He does. It's very risky what he does. It's not like. Well, like what you were saying, Ed. It's not a technocratic move. It's a really. A risky play because he.

[Ed Lee]

Ballsy move. Right.

[Emily Peck]

He was part of the whole thing, too. And I think he even alludes to that at one point.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah, he's like, you know what? This might have been my fault, too.

[Emily Peck]

This might have been me, too. Like, who knows what's gonna happen, but I'm coming out with the truth. And that's pretty. I mean, it's pretty bold and risky. He has nothing to lose anymore.

[Tamara Adler]

The whole thing. Do Kendall and Greg sort this out on the plane?

[Felix Salmon]

This is the question.

[Ed Lee]

That was a great moment, right, where he's got the papers in the manila envelope, and you're like, what is this? Where is this?

[Tamara Adler]

So does this happen?

[Ed Lee]

Let's go back.

[Tamara Adler]

Can we go back to the plane ride?

[Felix Salmon]

Is Greg a fucking killer?

[Tamara Adler]

Is Greg a killer?

[Felix Salmon]

Is Greg a killer?

[Tamara Adler]

Because we're on the plane. Are you okay, man? This is Greg de Kendall. Are you okay, man? Ken's like, you can go to the bathroom. I'm not gonna jump out of the plane.

[Felix Salmon]

Okay, but, like, to be clear, is that because, like, Greg was on candle sitting duties earlier in the season, right?

[Ed Lee]

Yes.

[Felix Salmon]

And so.

[Tamara Adler]

And getting him drugs.

[Ed Lee]

Park coke is what I'm getting. I'm doing park coke. Okay.

[Tamara Adler]

And then Kendall gave Greg the apartment.

[Felix Salmon]

But just to be clear, when Kendall gets sent off to do his seppuku thing in front of the world's press and he takes Greg with him, like, that was.

[Ed Lee]

I'm not step off.

[Felix Salmon]

I'm seeing Greg get onto the helicopter. I'm like, why did Kendall take Greg with him? Did Logan ask Greg to go with him? Like, how is Greg on that helicopter?

[Emily Peck]

It's Greg Sprinkles, man.

[Ed Lee]

It's Greg Sprinkles. But I think. I think you're right. I think it's Kendall taking him with him. Because they get off the plane, you see, they're both all. They're dressed up, they're in their suits. They've got mission, and Greg has got.

[Tamara Adler]

Greg has his briefcase.

[Ed Lee]

He's got his briefcase.

[Tamara Adler]

And it's very Note. It must be something about the camera work, because I totally noticed that. Exactly. It must be how. How it was framed, because Kendall walks ahead of him, nothing in his hands, and then Greg's behind him, and you notice.

[Felix Salmon]

And you notice the briefcase, but also you notice because, you know, they care about the small things on this show that Kendall walks off the plane wearing a fucking perfect suit.

[Ed Lee]

Yes.

[Felix Salmon]

And then Greg walks off the plane, like a few seconds later wearing a not perfect suit.

[Ed Lee]

At least he's a little bit more cleaned up than he had been before.

[Emily Peck]

Hopefully the fungus is gone.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah, well, having them out like that is good for fungus, I think.

[Felix Salmon]

I love that great line where Kendall shouts over to him, are you ready to step up, Greg? And Ken's like, well, I think the fungus is going.

[Emily Peck]

But if you remember, at the end of season one, Greg approached Kendall and tried to use what he knew. Remember that? He approached Kendall, and Kendall was like, I see you, Greg. So I feel like the seeds of this were actually planted then. Or you could read it that way that you know Greg was trying to give him that information way back then to get on his good side in case he ran the company. And then maybe Kendall remembered and thus a partnership.

[Ed Lee]

And they've had this more of a interconnection through the season between Kendall and Greg. And we tend to think of Greg as sort of with Tom mostly, which he is, but. But really, it's like, I think he developed that thing with Kendall through the season that paid off.

[Emily Peck]

And I think Greg and Tom had their breakup in the D.C. episode.

[Ed Lee]

That's right. They had their breakup.

[Emily Peck]

Yelling at him, saying, like, did you. I don't remember what he said.

[Ed Lee]

Throwing water bottles at him.

[Emily Peck]

Well, there was that. And then, you know, he felt like wambsgans, like, sold him out in dc. So I feel like that kind of ended their relationship, especially after Tom's performance in front of the hearing, which was.

[Felix Salmon]

Which, by the way, can we just mention. Can we just talk about that dead adding. No, the pre cred sequence where Greg is like, yes. If it is to be said.

[Tamara Adler]

You can just speak. You can just speak English.

[Emily Peck]

I shall.

[Felix Salmon]

Gregory Hirsch, executive assistant to Tom Wagans, Correct.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

Yes. Yes. If it is to be said.

[Felix Salmon]

I'm sorry?

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

If it is to be said, so it be. So it is.

[Felix Salmon]

Are you all right?

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

Yes. I merely wish to answer in the affirmative fashion.

[Felix Salmon]

You can speak to us normally.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

Okay. No, thank you, sir. So I shall.

[Tamara Adler]

And then he's talking about, like, things he could have said.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah. Which was so relatable. Who among us hasn't left a podcast recording and been like, oh, I could have said this. I should have said that.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah, there's all of that. Everything.

[Felix Salmon]

But, yeah. The fact that I was like, in the back of my head, I was like, why didn't they ask? I love that they had, like, you know, 30 seconds of Greg testifying at the beginning just to sort of tie that.

[Emily Peck]

They left him totally alone. Like the last episode. There's a war room. Everyone in the company is there.

[Felix Salmon]

I'm sure Carolina was in the back.

[Ed Lee]

Somewhere, but he doesn't have his council. There's no council next to him. There's no one to, like, you know, cover the microphone and.

[Felix Salmon]

Oh, and that wonderful Greg.

[Emily Peck]

I'm done with this. I'm going to Kendall and we're gonna do some work.

[Felix Salmon]

That bit where Hugo tries to knife Carolina.

[Tamara Adler]

Oh, that's great.

[Felix Salmon]

You're like, wow. And Logan's like, you are a mean motherfucker.

[Emily Peck]

Just kind of shit.

[Ed Lee]

Like you asked Logan. Yeah.

[Tamara Adler]

Should we talk about Logan's list For one second. But it's actually hilarious that it's written down on lined paper with stars.

[Ed Lee]

With stars. And it's like your middle school notebook. You're like. You're doodling the people you are.

[Tamara Adler]

You've written a slam book. Everyone you know it's a slam book. And then put little stars next to the ones you like the least and are most likely to throw overboard. And then put a little box around it.

[Ed Lee]

Box around it. Yeah.

[Tamara Adler]

Like he's just sitting there doodling.

[Ed Lee]

Right?

[Felix Salmon]

He's doodling with people's lives.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah.

[Emily Peck]

He just. It had to be him. And he knew it, too. He knew it before Philippe called on his phone directly calling him the investor.

[Felix Salmon]

I don't. Did he know what Philippe was going to say?

[Emily Peck]

No, but I think he knew. He knew everyone was out for blood, and he knew. He's a smart guy.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

And that was the thing, like, when he's having the conversation with Logan where he's like, logan, you need to go out and take the fall. And he's explaining why, and he goes, they won't accept me. And you're like, of course they'd fucking accept me.

[Ed Lee]

Of course they want you.

[Felix Salmon]

And not only does he know it's a lie, but he knows that Kendall knows that it's a lie. And that was. I think that's the point at which he's basically telling Kendall, like, you know, this is. Here's a knife. Go knife me if you have the balls.

[Emily Peck]

And we should also. We haven't mentioned Connor very much, but we should also mention Connor's whole role in this episode.

[Ed Lee]

Right.

[Emily Peck]

As approaching, you know, just a little. Just a little 100 mil.

[Ed Lee]

You know, I'm like, why does Willa.

[Tamara Adler]

Get to stay on the boat?

[Emily Peck]

Because Will is with Connor.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah, but Naomi was with Kendall.

[Felix Salmon]

And where's Tabitha?

[Tamara Adler]

And where's Tabitha? I just don't. I understand that Will is probably there so we can get the.

[Felix Salmon]

Oh, the iPad scene.

[Tamara Adler]

Do you want to take Felix's iPad? She did her voice before. What does she.

[Felix Salmon]

She makes a noise.

[Emily Peck]

What did the tarn say?

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

Oh, baby.

[Ed Lee]

You know what? I think let's just have a good time, and then, you know, when we're ready for a laugh.

[Emily Peck]

Let me take a look.

[Ed Lee]

You know, why don't we just give me.

[Felix Salmon]

Think.

[Tamara Adler]

Just stop. Where it's. Where is it?

[Ed Lee]

Here.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

Just.

[Ed Lee]

Just ignore the headline. Okay. Disregard that, because.

[Felix Salmon]

That was awesome. Because, like, yeah, I love.

[Tamara Adler]

She's very.

[Emily Peck]

Kind of offers himself up as a sacrifice rather hilariously, and everyone just laughs. Him off. I mean, he's. He is no sacrifice, right?

[Felix Salmon]

He says, throw me into the volcano, just long as I have $100 million to cushion my fall.

[Emily Peck]

And finally, Logan tells him his. His presidential campaign is an embarrassment. And so that's that. If he wants his hundred mil, his little 100mil, he has to give up the campaign, get rid of his conhead. And we should also talk about the viral meme. Go ahead, Ed.

[Ed Lee]

The viral meme.

[Tamara Adler]

Do you mean the gif?

[Ed Lee]

The gif.

[Tamara Adler]

The gif.

[Ed Lee]

Oh, yeah, I'm a gif.

[Emily Peck]

And it's like Connor fist pumping and then the Berlin Wall falling. What was that?

[Tamara Adler]

This is all good.

[Ed Lee]

This is all good. Yeah. No, I think it's just. It's hilarious that, you know, he's presented as, first of all, 100 million to stop your campaign. Who has these kinds of conversations anyway?

[Tamara Adler]

The Roys do.

[Ed Lee]

The Roys clearly do yacht.

[Felix Salmon]

Talking about.

[Ed Lee]

I don't. It's. And then he presents himself later as a potential sacrifice. Yeah, yeah, sure, give. I'll take it. I'll be the guy. Just pay me off is literally what he's saying in that scene. He just feels like. I liked his presence in this episode, but I just. I didn't get the plot point for him.

[Felix Salmon]

But maybe he's inherited that whole, like, I will do anything for money thing from Willa.

[Tamara Adler]

Well, hold on.

[Ed Lee]

Is that what happened?

[Tamara Adler]

Let's look at what Logan does for all of the kids. How he manipulates all of the kids in this episode. Because if we're saying he's the puppeteer really for all of this stuff, remember the fact that he is the one who sent Roman out.

[Ed Lee]

He.

[Tamara Adler]

I mean, I'm not saying he made the, you know, the coup happen in. In Turkey, but he. Or the, you know, that whole hostage situation. But he did force his son into a very dangerous situation from which Roman returns. A prodigal son changed. Seriously. Also in this episode, Shiv, who has become kind of morally depraved over the course of the season, becomes a. Like, actually puts herself on the line for her husband, becomes a dutiful daughter. Ken finally kills his dad, and Connor gives up the conheads. I mean, every single thing that Logan could want for these kids, like, real, actual bringing up your kids happens.

[Ed Lee]

Like, teaching them the slush. Teaching them.

[Tamara Adler]

They all learn these, like, terrible lessons by fire. And if you look at who they are at the end, they're improved. They've been refined by the fire.

[Felix Salmon]

Do you remember when Rhea takes that first meeting at Chase Manhattan Plaza, where they first talk about wanting to buy Pierce. The first thing she says to Kendall is, oh, look, it's Oedipus. Roy.

[Ed Lee]

That was great. That was great.

[Felix Salmon]

That's foreshadowing for you.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah. Logan had it wrong. Cause in the last episode, he says to Roman, I know you want to fuck your mother or whatever, but it wasn't that.

[Felix Salmon]

It was just killing your father.

[Emily Peck]

It was just. Kendall was the Oedipus. Yeah. Just killing the father.

[Ed Lee]

I think also what's notable is this season, for the first time, we saw the mom and just how.

[Felix Salmon]

Well, we saw her at the end.

[Ed Lee]

Saw her at the end. But how cold. Oh, that's right. But she's ultimately this cold presence. And as terrible as Logan is, the kids love him more. Back to this earlier point about how they're still hanging around him and they can't let go of him. And there's that scene with Kendall saying to Naomi, it's like, he loves me, you know? I know. Just. It doesn't express in the way normal people do. And so I think that's. There's this weird filial piety and this sort of weird filial love that is, again, very Greek Aegean tragedy.

[Emily Peck]

And people on Twitter were saying that the kiss that Kendall gives Logan as he's, like, at the end of their conversation, is a Judas kiss.

[Ed Lee]

It's a Judas kiss.

[Emily Peck]

To explain a little bit about that to me, or.

[Felix Salmon]

Well, this is a Christian thing, which I hesitate to call myself a Christian, which I'm not, but I would. There is this thing in the Garden of Gethsemane.

[Ed Lee]

Gethsemane, right.

[Felix Salmon]

Where Judas identifies Jesus as the person who has to be crucified by saying, like, I'm going to go up to all of these guys, and the guy I kiss is going to be the guy that you need to crucify. And that's how the Romans know who to arrest.

[Tamara Adler]

Did you just get.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

Whoa.

[Emily Peck]

Now, I understand. There's also a shot of Kendall in the yacht pool with his arms.

[Tamara Adler]

He is like a Christ figure.

[Emily Peck]

Like, he's gonna be the one that's crucified. But then no Judas Kiss.

[Felix Salmon]

Boom.

[Ed Lee]

Well, there's also. I mean, in cinema history, there's a famous scene in Godfather where Michael.

[Tamara Adler]

Fredo kissed Kisses.

[Ed Lee]

Fredo. He's like, I knew it was you.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah.

[Ed Lee]

So that's. It's. It's very much a part of sort of cinematic history right now.

[Tamara Adler]

Beautiful.

[Ed Lee]

It was. I thought it was very cleverly and well done here, and it wasn't Too heavy handed. But just enough. But then. And then when it happens at the end, you remember the kiss and you're like, oh, Judas Kiss.

[Emily Peck]

Judas Kiss. And also, we should talk about. I was just thinking about Greg in this episode. He's less dazzled by the wealth than usual, right? When they.

[Ed Lee]

When he comes up to the yacht.

[Emily Peck]

He'S like, yeah, whatever.

[Ed Lee]

Well.

[Tamara Adler]

And the loves that he doesn't.

[Ed Lee]

It's not really my.

[Felix Salmon]

You can't help but develop an opinion. You have a bunch of different types of champagne. You're going to prefer one to another.

[Ed Lee]

What are you drinking?

[Felix Salmon]

This is.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

I'm not sure. It's a. It's a. It's not my favorite. You got a favorite champagne now? Well, you can't help noticing. It's fine, I'll drink it. It's just not my favorite.

[Emily Peck]

But it's so different from the Greg of the beginning of the season who's like, dazzled by Kendall's penthouse.

[Tamara Adler]

Remember?

[Emily Peck]

And Kendall's just like, oh, that's all they had left in fashion week. All the good penthouses are taken. And Greg was like, what? Like, he also.

[Felix Salmon]

He gets the person who gets it. The thing I love the most about it is Naomi. She's just like, matter of fact, telling Greg, like, oh, yeah, you have to take your teeth. Lord, you have to take your sheep floor. She understands the world of wealth, even though she's not Roy.

[Ed Lee]

She's old school money.

[Felix Salmon]

She is old money, right?

[Ed Lee]

Very classic. Old school, new school, you know, sort of nouveau region.

[Felix Salmon]

She can also tweak them that wonderful line which I think kind of missed. But I just got where she's like, where she calls up to Kendall and she's like, your shorts match your plan.

[Ed Lee]

That's a very old money kind of way of thinking. You know, everything looks too much a thing.

[Emily Peck]

Oh, and speaking of looks too much, the Marcia refit on the Christmas tree, it looks like something out of the Melania designscape.

[Felix Salmon]

It looked like she managed it. She decided she was gonna get, like, Dale Chihuly in to redesign the yacht.

[Emily Peck]

It was bad.

[Tamara Adler]

It was unusually gauche.

[Emily Peck]

Her legacy was.

[Felix Salmon]

But that's not her right.

[Tamara Adler]

She refitted. Yeah, yeah.

[Felix Salmon]

No, no, but I'm just saying, like, if she had her druthers, she wouldn't get day old Chihulyn to redesign the yacht. That's not her actual taste. It's like her trying to piss off Logan.

[Emily Peck]

Oh, right. It was like a passive aggressive refitting of the yacht, which is like deeply sinister.

[Ed Lee]

I also love that they're on the yacht the entire episode. And the yacht doesn't go anywhere. There's a. There's, like, a helicopter and there's a Taxi. Boats. It's like, everything is.

[Felix Salmon]

I wanted to ask about whether the yacht goes somewhere, because I think I might be wrong about this. I think it leaves from Venice, Right. And then they meet Stewie on Paxos.

[Ed Lee]

Paxos, which is on the. On the western coast of Greece. Off the western coast of Greece. Near Corfu.

[Felix Salmon]

Right.

[Ed Lee]

So it's not that far. You could. You can't take a taxi boat necessarily. I think the yacht would have to get a little bit.

[Felix Salmon]

The yacht. I feel like the yacht did actually sail a bit from Venice, maybe a little bit.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah. Probably somewhere in between.

[Emily Peck]

How does Kendall know where Stewie is? I was wondering.

[Ed Lee]

No, that's a good question. Right?

[Emily Peck]

Is he, like, back channeling with him? Like, after the press conference ends and after he's torn up his prepared notes and mic dropped them? So much preferable to his mic drop several episodes earlier. Okay, so did he go meet with Stewie or something?

[Ed Lee]

So wait, are you suggesting that that was all sort of, again, play acting, that was theater. That he and Stewie had sort of set that up to sort of. To force Logan's end?

[Felix Salmon]

I think that was just your standard, like, mini Crest screenwriting. Like, you have to raise the possibility of, like, the Azerbaijanis coming in just to crush it. You need to raise the possibility of doing a deal with Stewie just to crush it. You then need to, like, even that whole comic scene, the comic. It's quasi comic breakfast with all of the. What does Roman call them? The shit fuckers. All of the shit fuckers pointing fingers at each other. Like, you need to raise the possibility that maybe it could be, like, Jerry and Frank and, you know, just to crush that as well, you know? And so that was just part of closing off all of the other avenues until it became clear that it needed to be a family member.

[Tamara Adler]

And it's plausible that you would know. I mean, if you think about you and your life, you kind of know where all of the major figures in your life are, even if they're not.

[Emily Peck]

Like, he's following him on Instagram or something.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah, something like that.

[Emily Peck]

Like, you kind of know where people are.

[Felix Salmon]

It's probably Instagram.

[Emily Peck]

He's probably Instagram Telegram, something like that.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah, he's in the Telegram group, you.

[Emily Peck]

Know, I mean, has everything in this season. If you start thinking about it, none of it meant anything. Like, the Pierce deal fell through, didn't mean anything. The Turkish money didn't mean anything. Nothing happened. Like, nothing, actually, in terms of all.

[Ed Lee]

The corporate actions, yes. There wasn't actual things happening there, but it was all about.

[Felix Salmon]

On episode one, they're worried about the proxy vote, and in episode 10, they're worried about the proxy vote.

[Ed Lee]

This is probably the most dramatic proxy vote series I have ever seen in my life. Right. The thing is, these things do happen every day, and they can get dramatic, but it's largely very abstract. And you're talking about shareholder groups that own millions of shares this way and that way. You have no idea how they're gonna vote necessarily. And you don't need all of them either. You only need, like, one or two big fish sometimes to sort of land your side of the deal.

[Felix Salmon]

I would not have been able to anticipate at the beginning of episode one.

[Ed Lee]

That this would be a whole process.

[Felix Salmon]

That we would get to the end of episode 10, and we still wouldn't have had the fucking proxy vote.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah.

[Emily Peck]

I guess the most consequential thing was, like, the 60 Minutes and the New York Magazine episode and, like, the airing of the Skeletons. Right. I mean, that is something that actually did, in fact, happen, and that the proxy fight didn't matter until all this bad stuff came out into the open, and then it was like, all the sharks in the water.

[Tamara Adler]

Is Kendall going to have to confess as part of this about his.

[Ed Lee]

Well, because doesn't his dad hold that over him now, though?

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Ed Lee]

Isn't that, like, his. He could still use that.

[Felix Salmon]

Okay, here's my theory. I think Kendall is smart. If I'm remembering series one correctly, whenever Tom tries to talk to Kendall about the cruise bullshit, Kendall's like, are you a fucking moron? Don't tell me this shit. And he's like, I do not want to hear this. I do not want to know anything about this. You go away and do your motherfucking job. Kendall, I think, colorably did a pretty good job of not knowing what was going on at cruises. Logan knew what was going on at cruises, but Kendall ate. I think, honestly, he did a good job of actually keeping himself out of the loop.

[Tamara Adler]

Right. But, I mean, the fact that his dad is lording over him that he killed somebody.

[Ed Lee]

The car. The car accident.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah. But not a real person. No real person involved.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah.

[Emily Peck]

Part of that scene was when Kendall said, oh, I deserve this. And Logan reassured him, no real person involved. I feel like that was a big deal, because not only did it show how depraved Logan is, In thinking there are real people and not real people. But also, it kind of showed that Logan doesn't care. Like, maybe if he did move forward to betray him, it doesn't matter that he has this over him, because he doesn't even think about it.

[Tamara Adler]

It was, like, freeing. Yeah. Cause he realized that he's. That. That Logan's been holding it over him, but he doesn't even think. But in fact, Logan does not even care about it. Yeah, he does.

[Emily Peck]

Not even thinking about it or lets.

[Tamara Adler]

Him off the hook.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

Right.

[Ed Lee]

Even if he does use it, though, somehow, it's sort of like, as far as Kendall's concerned, it's like you were gonna take me down anyway. So, like, here we go. Let's just do this, right? So you're gonna take me down. I'm gonna take you down. Maybe I win out of this, right? So that whole. In the first episode of the second season where there's that sort of. At the end of that first episode where Kendall goes to Sandy and Stewie and says, hey, this is what, message from my dad? It's really message between him and his dad now, right? Which is like, you might kill me, but I might kill you too. So let's just take this.

[Felix Salmon]

And then also, that was, like, at the end of episode one, when Kendall goes into that meeting with Sandy and Stewie, and he's like, I'm gonna cut your dick off, and I'm gonna kill your wives and children, and. And it sounds like it's a threat. And then he tries it again in episode 10. He's just like, oh, stop it with your.

[Ed Lee]

He's like, doesn't matter how many severed dicks you shove up my ball box.

[Tamara Adler]

Or whatever, until poop's coming out of my mouth.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah, that was great. He's sniffing the lavender the whole time.

[Felix Salmon]

I have a question about Logan and. Or Brian Cox. I'm not sure which one. There's this on the side of the yacht where he's talking to Kendall, and he gives this kind of quasi Shakespearean monologue. And he's like, me, I never did anything really. I'm a good Catholic lad. And all the rest of them behave like a pack of street dogs. And he's like, no, I'm not gonna step down. And like, that was him talking up to his, you know, son. Like, basically, number one, telling Kendall that the shareholders want him gone. That was, like, where he was teeing.

[Ed Lee]

That was the first. Right?

[Felix Salmon]

But number two, like, you know, it was his little soliloquy, right? That was him Basically opening up some genuine belief that he is, in some weird way, innocent, that he's not this malign, evil character. And it was this weird, like. And Brian Cox, when he delivers those lines, does it in this incredibly sort of Shakespearean way. Like, in a way, it stops being Logan and starts being sort of, I don't know, Richard III or something.

[Ed Lee]

But I think he's played. I think he's been playing Richard III most of this time, maybe. Right. Or King Lear. You know, if it's all. I think there is something about this idea that he thinks he's a good Catholic when he's actually not a good Catholic. Right. Is. Is a very Catholic thing.

[Felix Salmon]

Which is true of all Catholics thinking.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah, exactly. All bad Catholics are sort of. You know, I was raised Catholic, so I think I know a little bit about this.

[Felix Salmon]

You can explain the Judas schism.

[Ed Lee]

No, you explained it very well, actually. But it's this whole idea that because Catholics sort of abide by these, like, kind of Kantian imperatives, right? Like, there's a left and a right and a good and a bad and a right and a wrong. And, you know, there's. Even if you've done the wrong, he can't call it the wrong. Right. He's got to say that it's the right. And so, you know, I think he. And that's also what makes him him, like, why he succeeds in his career. And I think that's the moment that Kendall sort of realizing, okay, there's something broken here, you know, that there's like, this guy is like. There's something. There's something up.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah. But all bad people think they're good people. They all persuade themselves that they're good people.

[Emily Peck]

You're the hero of your own story. Yeah, that's what they say.

[Felix Salmon]

So even so, everyone thinks. I mean, except for Kendall. Kendall doesn't actually.

[Ed Lee]

The whole season has been living through fuzziness. Right. And I think most of the characters live through that kind of fuzziness. Whereas Logan is the only character who, like, has clarity about who he is and what he wants. Right. And then finally, Kendall finds that, like, quote, unquote, clarity at the end. Right. This is what I need to do, who I need to be.

[Felix Salmon]

Okay, so can I just ask? Because, like, one of the main things that people say, like, the people who don't like succession, who are they unanimously say, keep buttigieg. That the reason that they don't like succession is because all of the characters are so hateful and they're all such bad people. So I think that's true, that all the characters are bad people, but if you go down the list, like, how many of them like Logan think they're actually good people.

[Tamara Adler]

That's part of the brilliance of succession as a concept and the nothing happening of this season, because it's a little bit. What keeps on happening again and again is it's a little bit like, you really don't want. Anybody who really wants to build a nuclear bomb is not the guy that you want or the woman that you want building a nuclear bomb. Right. Like, that's how they. Or like anybody who really wants to be a cop, you kind of want to not let into the academy. But if somebody doesn't want to be a cop, they'd be a good cop. And it's kind of like anybody who'd want to run this empire needs to be discounted completely. Like, it means they're a terrible person, so they have to go through fire to emerge in order to be able to do it. Like anybody. They're all so bad, and that's why they keep on not being able to succeed.

[Ed Lee]

But I think they recognize they're also bad, too.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah, Roman knows that he's bad. Kendall knows that he's bad. Shiv definitely knows that she's bad. Like, when she's just sitting there on the beach and Tom is like, look what you've done to me. And all she can do is just kind of say, I'm sorry. Because, like, she knows that she has no.

[Ed Lee]

She has no justification for that. Yeah.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah, they're all bad. And that's why I think they. I think that their belief in themselves is keeping them from being able to succeed. Logan. And that Kendall, in his self flagellation and self. Kind of self reflection is closest to going, I'm a flawed human, without making any excuses, which is why he's able to eventually step up.

[Ed Lee]

But that's because he had that at the end of the first season where he had that reckoning. And that this whole second season is about him sort of rebuilding himself and basically saying, yeah, I'm bad. So what? That's what it is now. Right. And I think that's so to the earlier point about the people who don't like succession, which, of course, there are plenty or who can't get into it for whatever reason. And it's not television the way that we like to think of television, right? Which is sort of like fun and light and easy and everything's just sort of funny. I mean, these are Shakespearean, you know, characters. These Are, you know, these are the gods on Olympus, so they're all terrible. And I think for at least me, it appeals because, like, this is. Yeah. This is who we are as people. Right. These are the worst of us is us in a lot of ways, especially now. I don't know. I don't know if you guys. I'm not speaking for you guys, but what's the appeal for you guys?

[Emily Peck]

I mean, it's both funny and dark, and it says something about these big media companies that are running us. And so there's that insider appeal, as someone who works in the media to see that.

[Ed Lee]

But if you cut that out for a second, like, is it for regular, everyday people, for civilians, is this relatable.

[Felix Salmon]

For people who aren't, like. I'm always slightly surprised when someone who's not on media. Twitter likes succession.

[Emily Peck]

I mean, I think it's not that different from, like, the Sopranos or, like, Prestige Drama, where it's all unlikable. Allegedly unlikable people.

[Ed Lee]

Terrible people. Right.

[Emily Peck]

But who are actually kind of likable, like a Tony Soprano or the Breaking Bad Guy, you know, I can't remember his name. Doesn't matter.

[Tamara Adler]

Bryan Cranston.

[Emily Peck]

But it's sort of in that. It's in that tradition and in that vein where it's like people doing nasty shit to each other, but they look really good. And there is something you. You do wind up rooting for them. You do wind up rooting for Kendall over. Over the season.

[Felix Salmon]

I mean, you wind up rooting for Shiv's wardrobe.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah. So there is a sort of. In the tradition of theater, especially Western theater, whether it's Shakespeare or the Greek tragedies, the idea is that we look at these characters as the setting because they represent sort of the ultimate in humanity. Right. Meaning, like, this is it. If you're going to live a full human life, you will live it as a king or a queen. Right. And their flaws would ultimately show our flaws as humans. Right. Whereas if you're down on your luck, sort of poor person, it's like, that's the bad situation, and it's terrible. But that doesn't tell you about humanity. Right. So when everything is stripped away and you're just yourself as human beings and you're a terrible person, that says something about humanity. So it's meant to be relatable in that way. We look at, you know, King Lear, Richard III or Oedipus for that matter, because they're kings and princes, but in this universe of succession, they're propped up as sort of kings and princes and queens and princesses. So is that. Is it relatable that way, or does it not succeed? I don't know.

[Emily Peck]

It's like you strip away. When you're that wealthy and powerful, you strip away all your other. The hierarchy of needs is all met. So you are just coming to it with your appetite as a person. And just as a person, you don't have to worry about anything else. And then who are you as just a person? Oh. And it turns out you're just absolute trash.

[Ed Lee]

And that's the thing. Do people recognize that if they were in this circumstance, meaning unlimited wealth, effectively, and all this kind of power, that they would be as terrible as these people?

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah, that's why it's a successful show.

[Ed Lee]

Okay, I'm with you.

[Felix Salmon]

So, okay, let's have favorite lines.

[Tamara Adler]

Oh, okay.

[Emily Peck]

Okay. Oh, there was the one where Roman is responding to his father, who asks him, you know, is he okay after being held hostage? And he says, I've had worse experiences at hotels. I once stayed at a Marriott.

[Felix Salmon]

Very nice, Tamara.

[Tamara Adler]

Thank you for the chicken.

[Felix Salmon]

What does that mean?

[Tamara Adler]

Thank you for.

[Felix Salmon]

Can we unpack that scene a little bit?

[Emily Peck]

Why does he eat his chicken?

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah, yeah. What is Tom doing in that scene?

[Tamara Adler]

I think that's his. Fuck this moment. Cause Shiv says, I'm gonna go talk to him for you. And I think that's his kind of. I'm gonna grow a. Well, I don't want to say grow a pair, but, like, that's. I think he's going to. I am a person to be fucked with here. Like, I'm a real person. And so he goes and he sits down and he eats his.

[Felix Salmon]

He does his whole theater with his sunglasses. And then he licks his finger. Oh, my God, the finger lick. The finger lick is so good.

[Ed Lee]

It's his way of saying, fuck you. It's his way of standing up to Logan.

[Tamara Adler]

And it is. Visually, it's resonant with the ortolan. Right. You see it in another small piece of poultry. So he. Him and small poultry.

[Ed Lee]

That's brilliant.

[Tamara Adler]

And then we also have. It's the whole. It's also a chicken and egg thing. Right. Because we have the tomlet.

[Emily Peck]

Oh, my God.

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah. Amazing.

[Tamara Adler]

Eggy. Peggy, you see what I'm saying? The Scotch egg.

[Felix Salmon]

Where was the Scotch egg?

[Tamara Adler]

The scotch egg is what they had when he thought it was narancino. Yeah. So I'm just. I think. I think it's. On one level, it's just continuing with this chicken egg. Cycle.

[Felix Salmon]

Oh, my God. Who wants to be the, you know, the chief of chicken continuity in the screenwriters room at six.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah. I bet you they really think about that.

[Tamara Adler]

Yeah, I feel like I'm very clued into that person. When a chicken or an egg shows up, I'm like, I hear you. I see you. You see me.

[Emily Peck]

Brilliant.

[Ed Lee]

Anyway, I think we talked about this earlier. It's gonna be sort of like a more quiet line, right? Where Roman, where he's. He's talking to his brother and sister. He's like, can we like afterwards have like a conversation like normal, Something about that line?

[Felix Salmon]

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was quite tragic. My favorite deep cut, I think honestly made me partly because it's one of my favorite movies in the history of movies. But when Shiv says Rhea's out. Melted.

[Tamara Adler]

What was that?

[Felix Salmon]

The wicked witch has melted.

[Emily Peck]

Oh, nice. I didn't even touch that.

[Ed Lee]

Meaning it's elemental. Yeah, I mean, there's this. I think this season especially is full of references in that way. Absolutely melted.

[Emily Peck]

And of course, we have to mention the last line.

[Ed Lee]

This is Kendall at the very end.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah. He says this is the day his reign ends.

[Narrator/Intro Voice]

I have with me today copies of records that show his personal sign off. How much those of us who executed his wishes bear. Responsibility is for another day. But I think this is the day his reign ends.

[Emily Peck]

Does it, you guys, is.

[Felix Salmon]

So this is. This is where we need to end this episode and possibly even this season. It's late Monday. Succession is. Is a little bit of. Of completely baseless speculation about season three. Ed, you think that, like, third time is the charm?

[Ed Lee]

Third time is the charm.

[Felix Salmon]

I think Logan is gonna wind up out.

[Ed Lee]

I think he's gonna wind up out for a bit, but I do think this is going to be like a real. Like a real power.

[Felix Salmon]

Is he gonna fight to come back? Is he gonna fight his son to come back?

[Ed Lee]

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. He's absolutely gonna fight his son to come back. And I think that car accident is gonna be a factor. Absolutely. It's gonna be something. It's gonna take some form in this.

[Felix Salmon]

Next season because that was the. At the end of season one, right? He's like, you can't bring me down because if you do, then I will unveil.

[Ed Lee]

But it hovers to the entire second season like this sort of phantasm, you know, and it's just gonna. It's gonna sort of substantiate in the next season.

[Felix Salmon]

And then Kendall's like, okay, you wanna bring me down?

[Ed Lee]

Let's do this. Yeah, this makes it so much more fun.

[Emily Peck]

But Logan covered it up, so I feel like his hands are dirty too, in this thing. Like, he exposes Kendall, he exposes himself.

[Ed Lee]

Yeah, but his body, man, you know, I think he's got an envelope full of stuff.

[Felix Salmon]

Tamara, what's your prognostication for season three?

[Tamara Adler]

I agree, I agree with Ed that the third time's a charm. And the thing I don't know, and I was just trying to think about was how to keep the ongoing, you know, tension just between the two of them compelling enough. Like some. I don't. I'm trying to figure out what the twist is other than them going back and forth over who's done more horrible shit like the, you know, car crash, cover up of, car crash, cover up of decades of, you know, rape and horrible behavior. But we've already seen Logan and Kendall tangle a lot, so keeping that fun to watch is gonna require some, you know, pyrotechnics.

[Felix Salmon]

Right. Logan still needs to be able to control Kendall and his, like, crazy mind tricks. That's what the whole show is about. But like, like, let me ask, you know, the proxy vote, does it. Does it actually happen? Does it ever happen? Or do they manage to, like, do.

[Ed Lee]

Some kind of extend that last day for like, however long it possibly happens?

[Felix Salmon]

And more to the point, if third time is the charm, then who is the new CEO?

[Emily Peck]

I think that's the next season is going to continue and we still won't know who the next CEO is going to be. Like Kendall versus Roman. Cause I feel like Roman is sort of coming up as something because he's got his new gravitas.

[Felix Salmon]

It's going to be the Roman Jerry versus the Shiv Tom axis.

[Emily Peck]

Well, are Shiv and Tom going to make it unclear to me if their marriage makes it or not? So that'll be for season three as well. Something that I'm looking forward to.

[Felix Salmon]

The Shiv and Tom breakup.

[Emily Peck]

Yeah. Who knows what's going to happen with that?

[Felix Salmon]

I was very glad. I was super worried there for a minute. When they walk onto the boat and they're about to have a threesome and they find the girl that they're going to have the threesome with. And I'm like, wait, this is succession. You can't have sex on succession.

[Emily Peck]

Don't worry. There was no sex.

[Felix Salmon]

I was like, you didn't think it.

[Tamara Adler]

Was gonna happen, did you?

[Felix Salmon]

I was like, how would they. I mean. But yeah. No. And then that amazing scene where Tom just like, sort of.

[Emily Peck]

I'm not a hippie.

[Felix Salmon]

I'm not a hippie.

[Tamara Adler]

Also, shiv with her phone. How she. The way she calls everything off or gets anything happening is like she just brings that phone with her. Like, she goes out into the hallway to call off the threesome. Tom's like, I can't do this. And she's like, that's fine. I had to go get something anyway. What does she do? Like, text. Text the helicopter. It's off.

[Emily Peck]

She makes that night. What is it? The cutting of the throat thing that she makes. She's talking to find out if the going private deal happened. And Tom is at the top of the water slide, which is another hilarious thing. They're all going down that water slide, and she's just, like, doing that knife to the throat thing, and then he does it back to her. It's like the most unsubtle situation I've ever seen.

[Felix Salmon]

This is how rich people communicate on large boats because the boat is just too big. You can't just go up to someone. You have to, like, signal across the expansive boat.

[Emily Peck]

I was wondering. I had thought, because I did some. I read a Twitter thread about yachts, and I was wondering, because Rupert Murdoch famously had, like, he fell on a yacht. It was, like, really serious. And it, like, parallels kind of the beginning of season one where all the siblings are flown into the hospital because he was, like, helicoptered off the yacht. And then they all went and gathered. They thought it was his deathbed, blah, blah. So I was like, like, is this where this is going? Is Logan gonna die on this yacht? Which leads me to maybe what happens in season three. Like, at some point, Logan has to die, right?

[Felix Salmon]

No, Logan's immortal. Logan is immortal. Well, it comes. What are we in, like, 10 months?

[Emily Peck]

I guess we'll be back in 10 months.

[Felix Salmon]

We'll be back in 10 months with season three of Succession. I'm sure they're writing it furiously as we speak, but until then. And that's it. That's it for Succession Season 2. It was an awesome season. And thank you, Jesse Armstrong and all of the crew and cast and writers and directors and everyone else. And Pusha T. Who did the remix of the theme song, and everyone. Yeah. Thank you to Ed Lee for coming in. Thank you, Tamara Adler for coming in. And that's it for Sleep, Money Succession.

[Ed Lee]

It.