Slate Money: Succession, S2E4, "Nazis. Terrible, Right?”

Summary

Slate Money: Succession S2E4 – "Nazis. Terrible, Right?"

Date: September 2, 2019
Hosts: Felix Salmon (Nicholas), Emma, and special guest Alison Benedict

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Episode Overview

This Slate Money episode is a deep-dive panel discussion of Succession Season 2, Episode 4, “Safe Room,” which the hosts affectionately dub the “Nazis. Terrible, Right?” episode—after Tom’s awkward line and the uncomfortable neo-Nazi allusions in the show. The conversation travels between the Roman–Gerri dynamic, Shiv's power struggle, media business parallels, and the episode’s sharpest lines and setpieces.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Roman and Gerri: Power, Sex, and Weirdness

• The Evolving Dynamic
  • Roman’s relationship with Gerri comes to the fore, culminating in his asking her to degrade him over the phone in a quasi-maternal, definitely kinky power dynamic.
  • “From the moment he arrives at management training, he's calling her, he's checking with mom, she's pumping him up to, obviously, the end.” – Emma [01:06]
  • The hosts note how Succession’s rare sex scenes are always about power, not romance—linking Roman’s scene with his previous public masturbation. Emma observes: "There's no sex on the show at all… it's all about power.” [02:39]
• Dialogue Highlight
  • “You little slime puppy”—Gerri’s line to Roman [04:15], which causes much amusement among the hosts.
  • Alison calls out, “He needs to feel like shit to be able to get off… that's about power.” [03:59]

2. The Tom and Greg Breakup

• Faux Open Relationship
  • Greg tries to wriggle out from under Tom’s thumb, sparking a scene reminiscent of a breakup, triggering Tom’s insecurities.
  • “It was a breakup scene… it was very triggering when cousin Greg said to him, it'll be like an open relationship. That's when Tom really snapped because obviously he has that with Shiv and he does not want any more open relationships.” – Emma [29:06]
• Physical Comedy
  • Tom pelting Greg with water bottles—classic Succession slapstick. [29:23–30:17]
  • Emma: “It was definitely one of those performatively over the top scenes where Tom just starts throwing water bottles at Greg.”

3. Shiv’s Place in the Succession

• The Ambiguity of Power
  • The hosts dissect Shiv’s frustration, isolation, and how Logan dangles the CEO carrot without ever committing.
  • “She then complains later on in the episode to Jerry about, I'm sitting here with my coloring book…” – Nicholas [07:45]
  • Emma acutely summarizes, “Logan doesn't ever want anyone else to be in charge... He just wants someone who will do so he can keep all the power.” [09:14]
• Gender Dynamics
  • Discussion on whether Logan’s sexism is playing into denying Shiv.
  • “He's so sexist, too, that, like, he really doesn't want it to be Shiv, a woman.” – Emma [08:33]

4. Kendall: Ruin, Redemption, and the Roof

• Theories About Logan's Motives
  • Hosts analyze Logan’s seemingly genuine concern for Kendall.
  • “After going through the first three episodes, incapable of hugging anyone…he finally has, like, a genuine hug with his sister who hates him.” – Nicholas [11:06]
• Architectural Digression
  • Nicholas nerds out on Succession’s building filming locations, sleuthing (with timestamps): [11:31–13:11]
  • “I’m pretty sure they filmed the roof scenes on… 3 World Trade Center…” – Nicholas [13:11]
• Logan's Protection
  • Suicide-proofing (“suicide panels”) on the roof may be specifically for Kendall—a discussion generating differing theories [13:21–14:06].

5. Parallels to Real-World Media Business

• Logan vs. Rupert Murdoch
  • Hosts lean into Succession’s allegory to Murdoch’s acquisition of the Wall Street Journal, discussing speeches about “trust” and “editorial independence,” and how the money always wins out.
  • “That trust speech was a speech that could only have been given by someone who knew about the history of the Murdoch…” – Nicholas [17:26–18:23]
• Price Tag for Pearce/CNN
  • Debate over whether $24 billion for a “family-owned CNN” is plausible, and how Pearce is TV (not print) money [19:03–20:12].

6. ATN, Culture, and the Safe Room

• Ravenhead As Tucker Carlson

  • The group identifies “Ravenhead” as a parody of cable news personalities, calling out his affinity for Nazi references.
  • Emma: “He’s Nazi adjacent.” [20:46]
  • Tom’s grilling of Ravenhead about reading Mein Kampf (“Are there Easter eggs you didn’t get the first time?”) is called out as a darkly comic highlight [21:25].

• ATN’s Toxic Culture

  • Discussion of bullying, “human furniture,” and a contrived shooting subplot, with hosts divided on whether it fits the show’s style [14:57–16:07].

7. Funeral Fiasco and Comic Relief

• Connor’s Awkward Eulogy
  • Host consensus: Connor’s robotic, infantilizing speech (“When a man dies, it is sad. All of us will die someday. In this case, it is Lester who has done so.”) is an all-time comedic highlight. [37:05]
  • “If Willa wrote that, I mean she's just gone straight up in my estimation.” – Nicholas [28:21]

8. Management Training: Normies and Amusement Parks

• Roman Among the Normies
  • The hosts relish the “management training” subplot, from Roman’s fake name (“Ron Rockstone”) to the cringe of brainstorming amusements.
  • Standout quote: Brian: “I work hard, but I do not play hard. I play easy. Why would you play hard?” [34:18]
  • Jerry’s withering line: “You're not building a ride that you came up with on the first day of management training.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Tom: “Nazis. Terrible. Right?” [00:27]
• Gerri to Roman: “You little slime puppy.” [04:15]
• On Succession’s sex/power link: Emma: “It's all about power… Sex, when it happens in this show, is always about power dynamics.” [02:39]
• On Shiv's isolation: Nicholas: “I'm sitting here with my coloring book.” [07:45]
• Tom mocking Ravenhead: “Are there Easter eggs in Mein Kampf you didn’t get the first time?” [21:25]
• Connor at the funeral: “When a man dies, it is sad. All of us will die one day. In this case, it is Lester who has done so.” [37:05]
• Brian at management training: “I work hard, but I do not play hard. I play easy. Why would you play hard?” [34:18]
• Jerry to Roman: “You’re not building a ride that you came up with on the first day of management training.” [34:55]
• Rhea to Shiv: “Your most positive spin still sounds a bit rapey.” [38:34]
• Roman on America: “No amount of antibacterial gel is going to be able to wipe the America off me.” [38:52]

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Additional Insights & Themes

• Empathy for the Characters

  • Debate over whether the “monstrous” Roys are sympathetic.
  • “This is the most sympathetic reading of Succession I think I’m ever gonna find.” – Nicholas [42:26]

• Role of Female Characters

  • The hosts praise the show for rich older women’s roles: Gerri, Marcia, Sid, Rhea, and the soon-to-debut Pierce matriarch. [45:47]

• On Shiv’s Place

  • Emma: “Shiv is like, an elite liberal. Like, she doesn’t really care about these things, but she’s, like, on that side for some reason...” [32:57]

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Section Timestamps

• Roman & Gerri discussion: [00:49–06:49]
• Tom & Greg’s relationship: [28:38–31:14]
• Shiv’s frustrations: [07:45–09:50]
• Logan/Kendall power moves: [10:35–13:27]
• ATN/Ravenhead/Tucker Carlson riff: [20:30–22:05]
• Funeral/Connor’s eulogy: [25:59–28:21]
• Management training & Brian: [33:37–35:41]
• Gender roles & matriarchy: [45:47–46:00]

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Outlook: What's Next?

• The Pierce acquisition arc is heating up.
• Anticipation of more scenes with Rhea and new Pierce matriarchs.
• Ongoing speculation about the Roy children’s maneuvering and Logan’s true intentions.

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Wrap Up

Overall Tone:
Engaged, insightful, irreverent, and affectionate toward the show’s mix of pitch-black comedy and family psychodrama.
Key Takeaway:
This episode of Slate Money is both a pointed breakdown of Succession’s most perverse power plays and a gleeful catalog of its funniest lines, with special praise for the show’s mastery at combining deep business satire with emotional bleakness and sharp humor.

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For listeners wanting a primer on “Safe Room,” this summary lays out every major development, character arc, and micro-reference debated by Slate’s sharpest hosts, replete with all the best lines (and the timestamps to prove it).

Transcript

[Host]

The following podcast contains explicit language.

[Nicholas]

People, we are back. This is the Nazis Are Terrible edition of Slate.

[Emma]

Money, Success, Easter Eggs, and Minecraft.

[Alison]

I just need that.

[Nicholas]

I mean, honestly, this was possibly not the greatest episode of Succession, but it was still extremely good. And Tom's lineup saying, Nazis are terrible. Right. He needs, like, Greg to confirm to him that Nazis are terrible and Greg's like, Nazis, they're the worst.

[Emma]

Yeah. And we saw how much Tom needs Greg in this episode later on.

[Nicholas]

So, yeah, so this is the episode where a whole bunch of relationships get seriously reset. We have the Tom Gregg relationship gets seriously reset. We get Shiv Ken relationship. But the one which obsesses me the most is the Roman Jerry relationship.

[Emma]

I saw it coming. I saw it coming in episode three, we all did. At the scene where she strains his tie, you saw the tension. You saw it building. In this episode, from the moment he arrives at management training, he's calling her, he's checking with mom, she's pumping him up to, obviously, the end.

[Alison]

So the end, which we should just say is Roman masturbating on his bed while.

[Nicholas]

Okay, wait, hang on a sec.

[Alison]

Don't interrupt me when I'm talking about Roman masturbation.

[Nicholas]

Okay. All right. Okay, so finish. Wait a second. Okay, okay. Before you say that, I just need to do something important first, which is mention that we actually have a new special guest in the studio with us who is the. The queen of all things Slate, Alison Benedict. Who?

[Alison]

Hi, Alison.

[Nicholas]

You basically run this entire company.

[Alison]

That's a slight overstatement. I have several people above me.

[Nicholas]

Yeah, but they don't run the company. You do.

[Alison]

I am, like, the Roman of Slate. I'm not in charge.

[Nicholas]

You are not in charge. You just make it all happen.

[Alison]

Right?

[Nicholas]

So, yeah, Alison was the person who edited all of my, you know, blog posts back in the day when I was blogging for Slate. Was this hard for you, this episode, to deal with, like, the revelation of the Roman Jerry relationship?

[Alison]

No, it wasn't hard for me. What it made me realize, and maybe this has been obvious to others, is that for such, like a serious. Not serious for such an adult show, such a mature show, there's no sex on the show at all, which I had just hadn't. I hadn't kind of.

[Emma]

That's so true.

[Alison]

Put that together before, because it's all about power.

[Emma]

It's not about all about power. And I think for Roman, the relationship with Jerry is also about power because it's the sort of, like, mother child kind of relationship, and he finds that exciting as opposed to his, like, same age.

[Nicholas]

We have had exactly two orgasms on this show as far as. Well, maybe three, actually. If this one counts.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Nicholas]

Then this is the third.

[Alison]

It counts.

[Nicholas]

Okay.

[Alison]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nicholas]

The first two, There was Tom, who wound up drinking his own ejaculate at his bachelor party, which was, that night, legendary. And then before that, earlier on, there was Roman, who, like, wanked off onto his office window when he got the job initially. And so it's all about power dynamics. Like, sex, when it happens in this show, is always about power dynamics.

[Alison]

That's confusing, though, actually.

[Emma]

And that's so un. HBO to just carry it out a little bit more, because HBO is all about sexy shows and boobs. Yeah, there are no boobs in the show. Except for Tom and Greg are essentially boobs. Am I right?

[Alison]

Wait, so the Roman Dynamic, though, this time with Jerry, I actually didn't read it as, like, mother, son. He needs to be told that he's, like, a shitty. I guess that is. That's father's family. Yeah, she talks.

[Emma]

I mean, the things she says to him are like, you disgust. Well, no mom would tell their son, you're a disgusting little worm.

[Alison]

But he needs to feel like shit to be able to get off. Now when he's in the earlier scene, which I had forgotten from the first season, when he masturbates in the office. That's. Sorry, am I saying masturbate too much? That is about him feeling powerful, not about him feeling like shit. Right?

[Emma]

It's interesting.

[Nicholas]

Yeah. But in terms of great lines from the show, you little slime puppy is a. Is a good one.

[Tom]

You know, technically, I'm your fucking boss.

[Greg]

Go to bed, Roman. Go to bed and masturbate all your ideas out and let's see how excited you feel tomorrow.

[Tom]

Well, maybe. Maybe I will. I mean, maybe I'll just leave you on the pillow so you can hear my brilliance cascading.

[Greg]

Fine. I've heard plenty worse than a spoiled brat ejaculating on himself.

[Tom]

Yeah, you sure about that? I could be doing it now for all you know.

[Greg]

Well, get going. Chop chop, You disgusting little pig. You're pathetic. You are a revolting little worm, aren't you?

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I am.

[Greg]

You little slime puppy.

[Host]

Yes.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Nicholas]

What else am I?

[Greg]

You're a bolting Roman.

[Nicholas]

Yes. Yeah.

[Emma]

She'S really wonderful. Apparently, they Originally, Jerry was supposed. The character of Jerry was supposed to be a man, but then she was so great, they made Jerry into a woman and gave her more episodes like she was Only supposed to be a character for a few episodes, but I guess she's so good. They just.

[Alison]

I would like a Geri backstory episode.

[Emma]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Emma]

She's interesting. Do you think that this relationship will evolve over the next few episodes? Like, what happens next?

[Nicholas]

I mean, this raises the question of, like, is this the first time this has happened?

[Alison]

Oh, I believe it's the first time it's happened. My question is, is it leading to an actual relationship, or is this not? Like. Like, is it possible that, like, he actually doesn't want his hot, young girlfriend and he's gonna end up with Jerry?

[Emma]

It does not seem like he wants the hot, young girlfriend.

[Nicholas]

Well, no, it seems like. Well, I mean, he doesn't want to have sex with her. Like, she famously keeps on complaining that he's, like, the only person she knows who she hasn't had sex with her.

[Emma]

And they try to have phone sex on this thing. He, like, first he talks about it with Jerry. He says, I'm gonna be, like, a normie and have phone sex with my girlfriend. And then they try to do it, and he just. He can't do it.

[Alison]

Right.

[Emma]

He thinks it's ridiculous. And then he finally has phone sex, but of course it is with this much older lady.

[Nicholas]

Yeah. No, it's very Roman Phone sexy. Yeah. If you are a member of the Roy family, then your phone sex has to be a whole different level of hornsegs.

[Emma]

But should we move on and talk about other stuff?

[Nicholas]

Let's talk about. Yeah, no, let's talk about the.

[Alison]

Let's just talk about this the whole time.

[Emma]

Should we talk about.

[Nicholas]

Although, like, it does start. The episode starts again with this whole weird sexual metaphor where Tom and Shiv are in the back of the car driving up to her first date at the office, and she's a bit nervous, and Tom turns to her in this, like, inimitably Tom manor and goes like, now you can bang. You've been liking each other, and now.

[Alison]

You can bang about her dad. Yes.

[Nicholas]

And he's like, yeah, now you get to have sex with your father. And she's like, ew.

[Emma]

But they don't really bang in this episode, do they?

[Nicholas]

No.

[Emma]

It's like, he's still banging with Kendall.

[Nicholas]

He's still banging with Kendall. That's the whole thing. Like, she walks in and she's like. And he's like, I'm gonna bring you in. And she gets brought in, and she walks into the CEO's office, and she's like, should I be over there in your office. And he's like, actually, no, that's Kendall.

[Alison]

No, it's like, bring your kid to work day. Like, he just needs someone to babysit her and let her be there for the day.

[Nicholas]

And she then complains later on in the episode to Jerry about, I'm sitting here with my coloring book. I mean, she's so aware of this idea that, like, insofar as she is being groomed for the CEO position, no one's telling her anything.

[Alison]

So what is happening? I mean, that's, like, obviously the central question of the entire show, but also, this episode's really. What is happening with it. Like, was this promise fake?

[Emma]

I mean, I don't think it was fake in the moment for Logan to say he wants Shiv to be the next CEO, because it obviously can't be Kendall because he's this neutered shell of a. Which we can talk about.

[Alison]

She tells us, yes.

[Nicholas]

Yeah.

[Emma]

And then. And Roman is obviously completely incompetent. So, I mean, logically. And if he wants it to be a relative, it has to be Shiv. It can't be. The other children are just. It's not possible.

[Nicholas]

So the question is.

[Emma]

He's so sexist. I think he is so sexist, too, that, like, he really doesn't want it to be Shiv, a woman. Like, I just think that.

[Nicholas]

I don't think he's about that. I think there's a little bit in the. I think that there's something which is implied but not entirely spoken about, how he wants it to be Shiv, and Shiv wants it to be Shiv, but neither of them want that decision to be public. And so he turns around and tells Kendall, oh, your sister's just in here for the day. She turns around and tells everyone. I'm just observing.

[Alison]

I think at this point, she does want it to be public also. I think I feel like she's, like, ready for, like, people to.

[Nicholas]

But why? Why would he not want it to be public?

[Alison]

I don't know. That's what I'm trying to do.

[Emma]

Here's what I think. I think Logan doesn't ever want anyone else to be in charge, and he doesn't want an actual autonomous potential leader to be his successor, his name successor. Because that person will wield power.

[Alison]

Like, she's already described. Like, she's already made their decisions that she doesn't agree with. She doesn't think they should go after Pierce. Right. Yeah.

[Emma]

And now he has Kendall, who is just his total. His. To borrow a word from Shiv, His Meat puppet who will do whatever he wants. His total. His total puppet. So that's sort of more appealing to him. He just wants someone who will, like, do so he can keep all the power.

[Nicholas]

But this is an interesting question, which Shiv actually asks Kendall towards the end of the episode. She's like, why is Logan being so nice to you? Why is he covering up your shoplifting? Why is he bringing you into all of these deals?

[Alison]

She's asking that for us.

[Nicholas]

We've been wondering the whole episode, and we're wondering this because when he talks to Rhea, the CEO of Pierce, like, he. All he talks is complete nonsense and gobbledygook. Like he has no idea what he's talking about, and he doesn't seem to be adding any value. So what is Logan getting from Kendall's presence? Why couldn't he just use any of his actually competent executives? Why can he get Jerry to do that?

[Alison]

Well, there's a hint in the show. I don't know. I mean, we're meant to. I'm not sure what we're meant to take from it, but when they're all in the safe room and he's mostly worried, there's. So there's a shooting at atn. They're all in the safe room, and he's mostly worried about Kendall, he's asking over and over again, where's Kendall? Is Kendall safe? Doesn't seem calculated. Right. It seems genuine.

[Nicholas]

And I think that's the answer that Kendall gives Shiv. Right. And so that's, like, the emotional heart of the episode is that, like, after going through the first three episodes, incapable of hugging anyone, including his own kids, he finally has, like, a genuine hug with his sister who hates him. And he's like, the reason why dad is giving me all of this responsibility is because I would be completely broken without it.

[Alison]

And he cares about me, actually.

[Nicholas]

Yeah, that's the bookend.

[Emma]

And he's no longer a threat to him at all. He's totally neutered. He's, like, now a puppy. Like, he doesn't pose any threat. So he can have him close.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Nicholas]

And the bookend, of course, of the episode is at the beginning. We see Kendall on, like, a CCTV camera climbing up to the roof of the Royco Waster headquarters, which, by the way, I'm gonna do a little architectural digression here because I'm mildly obsessed with lower Manhattan skyscrapers. All of the exterior shots of the headquarter building is the Chase Manhattan Plaza. And they have. It's all set in Chase Manhattan Plaza, which is this great building right down.

[Emma]

All the way downtown.

[Nicholas]

All the way downtown.

[Emma]

And the Battery, that one.

[Nicholas]

It's not way, way downtown, to be technical. It's on, like, Cedar Street.

[Emma]

Okay.

[Nicholas]

It's quite close to the New York Fed. It's this big building built in the 1960s. Kendall goes up onto the roof. And then the weird thing, not that I, like, totally paused, reframed the show and tried to work this out for, like, hours yesterday or anything. When he goes onto the roof, what do you see in the background? But Chase Manhattan Plaza. It's like the roof scenes are not good catch.

[Alison]

Wow, Phyllis, you've blown the whole thing.

[Nicholas]

The roof scenes are not filmed in that building. And I started thinking, because you're looking down on Chase Manhattan Plaza. I'm like, where on earth could you be filming these roof scenes? Given that, like, there aren't a lot of buildings which are taller than Chase Manhattan Plaza? And I kind of worked. It took me a long time to work it out. But then he would look up north, and I'm like, oh, my God. They're basically at the bottom of Church Street. I'm pretty sure they filmed the roof scenes on the terrace at the top of the new 3 World Trade center, which was going to be the new headquarters of News Corporation and 21st Century Fox, before Rupert finally changed his mind at the last minute and decided to stay in Midtown.

[Emma]

That is really good. That is really expert sleuthing. I'm very good.

[Alison]

But the reason you're bringing this up.

[Nicholas]

At all is because after doing a lot of hanging out on the roof, Logan. After Kendall hangs out on the roof a lot, Logan.

[Alison]

But he goes up to the roof.

[Emma]

He's the beginning contemplating suicide up there.

[Nicholas]

Well, he's doing something. And then Logan realizes where his son's the whole time. And so the next time Kendall goes up to the roof, Logan has put these, like, suicide panels.

[Emma]

I thought that was because someone literally committed suicide at Etienne so that they suicide proofed the building. I also thought what you thought. Yeah. And then it had the bonus of preventing Kendall from jumping off the roof. And there was that sort of sad scene at the end on the glass panel. Yeah, that's what I thought that the company was like.

[Nicholas]

I think it was Kendall specific because, remember, he needed to, like, type a code into, like. I don't think general ATM and segment producers even had access to the roof, to be honest.

[Emma]

So the suicide panel's the equivalent of the chauffeur on the motorcycle.

[Nicholas]

Yes, yes, that's exactly Right.

[Alison]

That's interesting. That's smart.

[Emma]

Interesting.

[Alison]

So can we talk a little bit? I agree that this was not the best episode.

[Nicholas]

So what was your beef with the episode?

[Alison]

I know this is a fan show, but we're gonna.

[Emma]

I mean, we wouldn't do the show.

[Greg]

If we didn't like it.

[Alison]

Okay, so here are the things that bothered me about the episode. Bringing on a celebrity to play Rhea. Holly Hunter. Who? I love Holly Hunter, but that just feels like a bit of, like a second season gimmick. Made me feel like, oh, is the show in decline? The shooting plot, I thought was totally contrived. And Shiv, it's making me concerned. Like, her reaction to Ravenhead. I know she's been a liberal the whole time, but, like, her, I feel like they're pushing the. Like, Shiv is the daughter with a conscience a bit hard, and it made. You're looking at me like I'm crazy.

[Emma]

Well, I'll take on the shooter point first, because I thought the shooter. The fact that one of the employees shoots himself at his desk, fit in nicely with the whole episode and the buildup of the prior shows because we're getting this picture of ATN culture and the culture that Logan kind of has created, which is one of excessive bullying and just anguish. And of course.

[Nicholas]

And human footstools.

[Emma]

And human footstools, yeah. Thank you. This is what atn, human furniture, verbal assaults, physical humiliations, Nazi stuff. I just don't love it. I feel like it all fits together.

[Alison]

Do you know what I mean?

[Emma]

Like, and I love it. Yeah.

[Nicholas]

Ravenhead is definitely, you know, he's just part of that human footstool furniture, basically.

[Emma]

Yeah, right, exactly. I feel like. And that has its corollary, of course, with to News Corp, which is just this, like, heinous culture that was exposed a few years ago and now no one seems to care about again, that Roger Ailes died.

[Alison]

It was just like, a little on the nose. There was, like, the antifa protesters and, like, I don't know, it just felt. Still love the show. Keep watching, everyone. I actually watch the next episode, so keep watching. It's really good, but it just. I don't. It felt a little bit like, oh, is this show losing its edge?

[Nicholas]

One little grace note, which I noticed. It's the day this entire episode takes place in one day. And it's the day that Rhea, the CEO of Pearce, comes into the office for the first big meeting about, you know, whether they might be for sale. It is the first time I'm pretty sure about this this is the first time in the entire history of succession up until this point that we have seen Logan wear a tie.

[Host]

Hmm.

[Nicholas]

He's wearing like a chalk striped suit and tie. And he's really dressed up for this meeting in a way that he hasn't dressed up for anything so far.

[Emma]

He does seem to. Is respect the right word. I mean, he really wants to buy this company. So he's just laying it on pretty safe.

[Nicholas]

He does seem to respect her, Rhea, more than anyone else in the show up to and including the President of the United States.

[Emma]

And we get our first glimpse of like the Logan, Rupert Murdoch kind of parallel when he says. What does he say? Fucking love news or something? Like, people hate me and I'm a jerk, but I love the news that's supposed to be basically Rupert Murdoch. That's his whole. His whole pitch when he was buying the Journal was that, you know, yes, I'm a jerk and I'm a terrible person. Everybody knows I'm an asshole. But at the end of the day, I'm a newspaper man and I'm not gonna mess up your newspaper. Cause I love it. And do you trust me?

[Nicholas]

And you know, so the trust thing is. So this is the other great thing about succession is that it doesn't just reflect the Murdochs, but it kind of incorporates the history of the Murdochs. That trust speech was a speech that could only have been given by someone who knew about the history of the Murdoch. Absolutely. Specifically the history of Rupert Murdoch buying the Wall Street Journal. And the quote is, we can draw up some agreement with any number of provisions in it, but you know that if I want, I'll find a way around it. And that's exactly what. And the reason that someone would say that is because they have seen Rupert Murdoch by the Wall Street Journal swear up and down that he was going to preserve its ed Independence, create an editorial board which he had no control over, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then immediately ignore all of that and just put his own people in.

[Emma]

Yeah. And I remember at the time, everyone was like, don't let him create the independent board. Everyone knows the independent board is again, bullshit. Like it's not gonna be worth anything. And everyone was like, la, la, la, la la. Money, money, money, money.

[Connor]

Yeah.

[Alison]

So why do you think she trusts him, Rhea? Like, do you think she walks away?

[Nicholas]

I'm quite sure she doesn't trust him. But the one thing we learned with the Bancrofts, you know, when they sold the Wall to Murdoch for $5 billion, was number one, they were right to do that, financially speaking, like, they got a great price for it. And number two, they did it for the money. They didn't do it because they really cared about editorial independence. They just needed that fig leaf of editorial independence in order to, you know, let them sleep well at night.

[Alison]

So I wanted to ask you guys because you would know and I do not. 24 billion for this fictional CNN. Family owned CNN. Yeah. Is that, what is that? Is that, Is that a good number? Is that A right number?

[Nicholas]

24 billion is a very large number. I mean, this is the point at which the Pierce family differs substantially from the Bancrofts or the Sulzbergers, is that the Bancrofts and the Silzbergers were just print and there's just not that kind of money in print. There never has been. Pierce is television. And yeah, you can definitely get that kind of money in television, but there's no sort of family owned television news station, with the possible exception of like Ted Turner and cnn, that you could really point to. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's more of a Ted Turner, CNN thing. We were just talking about Jane Fonda earlier on Slate Money.

[Emma]

That's true. Interesting day it's been so.

[Nicholas]

Yeah. So I think 24 billion is not unthinkable for a major television network. But it would have to be, as you say, like something on the order of cnn. But you couldn't get there with like the New York Times or the Washington Post.

[Alison]

I mean, I think that's what they're framing like they're making you think it's like cnn, Right? It's like it's the non ideological important.

[Emma]

But also CNN now I feel like has become.

[Nicholas]

Well, CNN is.

[Alison]

Well, the idea of cnn, the platonic.

[Nicholas]

Ideal of like a genuinely respectable cnn which isn't run by Jeff Zucker.

[Emma]

Yes, very good. Oh, we should talk about Ravenhead. Yes. Yeah, we should talk about Ravenhead, I. E. Tucker Carlson. Do we all agree he's Tucker Carlson? I mean, Tucker Carlson isn't. Wasn't a Nazi who has a dog.

[Alison]

Careful.

[Emma]

I will not go on the record. He's Nazi adjacent. I guess this is more explicit.

[Nicholas]

Who's that? Who's that, like, stupid sidekick guy on Fox News who got his own channel?

[Alison]

Who got his own channel?

[Nicholas]

Jess. No, his own show. Waters.

[Alison]

Oh, Jesse Waters.

[Nicholas]

Jesse Waters. I felt like. Because like when, when Thomas introducing Ravenhead at the beginning, he's like, yeah, he's really. He brings in a whole new demo.

[Alison]

Does Jesse Waters read books, though? Like this guy, like, he's like he's like.

[Nicholas]

He's read Mein Kampf twice, right?

[Alison]

Exactly.

[Emma]

And then when Tom. Tom says, what? There were Easter eggs that you didn't get the first time.

[Nicholas]

That was a good line.

[Emma]

That was such a wonderful scene as, like, he. You know, Tom does. He doesn't want to find anything bad about this guy. He's so eager to just clear him. And then the guy is just, you know. Oh, yeah, it's the same name as Hitler's dog, but it's, you know, it's spelled different. Oh, I read Mein Kampf. But, you know, just. This is really interesting. And then he finally gives the numbers. Oh, I think It's World War II. It's really interesting because this many Germans died. This many.

[Nicholas]

He goes, 7 million Germans, 20 million Russians, 5 million polls. And Tom says, just checking the till here, Mark. And it seems you're still short a few million.

[Emma]

I mean, it was just unreal.

[Nicholas]

And then in a classic piece of screenwriting, like, the shooting happens. The shooting happens.

[Alison]

Yeah. That was frustrating.

[Emma]

Yeah. I hope we get to go back.

[Host]

And this other one that came up just to fend this off. Have you ever read Mein Kampf? Yeah, a couple times, I guess. Couple times. Are there Easter eggs in there you didn't get the first time? Look, I'm just. I'm interested in that period of history, Tom.

[Nicholas]

Okay?

[Host]

I've skimmed it. Skimmed.

[Nicholas]

Yeah.

[Host]

Thank you. And what specifically do you find interesting about that period of history? The scale, the tragedy.

[Nicholas]

Hell, yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

And which tragedies, specifically? Europe decimated 7 million Germans, 20 million Russians, 5 million Poles.

[Nicholas]

Yeah.

[Host]

Just. Just checking the till here, Mark. And it seems you're short a few million.

[Nicholas]

But then the fait accompli is rare. At the end in the car park, when she goes up to Logan and says, like, listen, if you want the family. If you want to give, like, a peace offering to the family and you want to make this deal happen, you should probably fire Ravenhead. Yeah. And that makes Logan's decision much easier. Right.

[Alison]

Which is what Shiv had suggested earlier when she was, like, sitting in the corner at that meeting, right, to fire him.

[Nicholas]

She was doing it for, you know, ideological reasons, which I guess it would be.

[Alison]

It could have been business reasons, too.

[Nicholas]

That was like. It was in the panic room conversation like Rhea again. This, like, weird fait accompli, like, brings her back in. She's talking to Logan and Shiv and Kendall at the same time. Shiv is not entirely read into what's going on, but she just comes straight out to Rhea. And says, listen, I don't think we should buy you, but I think we can have both left and right under the same corporate umbrella. And Rhea's like, oh. And that's the point at which Rhea goes from being like, I just came here to deliver a message, which is. Wait, what was the message? It was a great message. A typically balanced and objective fuck off, to actually being interested. And the reason.

[Emma]

Wait, are you saying that Shiv is the one who makes this deal possible? Because I felt by the end of that.

[Nicholas]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

[Emma]

Logan and Kendall were trying to kind of like, shove her out of the conversation.

[Nicholas]

They were. They were. I mean, Logan on some level realized that made it possible, but. And Kendall was being incredibly obnoxious. But there would be no deal if it wasn't for Shiv.

[Alison]

Kendall was being obnoxious by upping the number on his own. I mean, I feel like Logan kind of let that happen.

[Nicholas]

No, no, Logan was happy to see that. But Kendall, like, Kendall is such an obviously broken and pointless person that Rhea is never going to take him seriously. Rhea takes Shiv seriously. And if Shiv says, like, we can actually have both of these under one roof, Rhea's like, oh, okay. If Logan says 24 billion, she's, oh, okay. If Kendall starts blathering on about anything, everyone's gonna be like, oh, Kendall, fuck off.

[Alison]

Yeah. It's just everyone has their agenda, so I'm inclined to, like. I'm not sure that Rhea.

[Emma]

I don't know what. She came in there kind of wanting it.

[Alison]

Yeah. I also think her, like, delivering the message was not really what she.

[Emma]

Yeah, she's delivering. Exactly. She is delivering the message. Not her message necessarily, but, I mean.

[Nicholas]

In terms of great lines, when Logan offers her lunch and she goes, my tummy is delicate. We really only Pulitzer over at Pierce. That was good.

[Emma]

And it's setting up like. It's like Pierce, it's like old money respectability versus this gauche new money disrespectability of Logan's company. Should we talk about the funeral?

[Alison]

Let's talk about the funeral.

[Nicholas]

Moe's funeral. It turns out.

[Emma]

Happy death day. Happy death day.

[Nicholas]

Oh, my God. So, yeah, first of all, Connor is like, the whole church is going to be stuffed with weeping ATMs. He's like, he treats this funeral as a way to fundraise. Fundraise for his quixotic presidential campaign, which is so gloriously Connor.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Nicholas]

And then no one tells his girlfriend that Mo wasn't actually called Mo, which is just Glorious.

[Emma]

And they couldn't. I was surprised the wife didn't know at all. She looked totally baffled by his nickname, Mo. She didn't know he was what I.

[Nicholas]

Want to find out.

[Emma]

His name is less than Mo.

[Alison]

Know his name was Mo. Or is that actually only a thing they called him when he wasn't around?

[Nicholas]

Oh, I think they called him to a face. This is the Roy family. Everything happens to each other's faces in the Roy family. I'm sure Mo is called Mo to his face. But this was a clear fuck up by Marcia. This is the first clear Marcia fuck up that we've had.

[Emma]

Oh, because Marcia wants Connor to speak at the funeral.

[Nicholas]

Marcia? No. Marcia wanted Connor's girlfriend to pump the wife for information about what Lester had told the biographer.

[Alison]

Why is that a fuck up?

[Nicholas]

Because in that conversation she should have bothered to mention that Mo's name was not actually Mo.

[Alison]

I thought that was very strange. Did you have any indication up until that point that anyone would trust Willa for that kind of job?

[Emma]

I thought this was Willa's episode to.

[Nicholas]

Shine because she saves Willa, saves Connor.

[Alison]

Is she starting to actually care about him? Is that what we're to believe?

[Emma]

I don't believe. I think she just. She needs him to succeed in order for herself to be.

[Alison]

I feel like there's some softening there where it used to be like she was completely. Anytime he came close, her shoulders would.

[Emma]

Yes.

[Alison]

Now that he's running for president, she seems like a little more like she thought his video was kind of good. She helps him write the speech. She seems to care about it a little.

[Nicholas]

And the speech. I'm just gonna speak very personally here, but the all time.

[Alison]

Great.

[Nicholas]

You're 13 in the 13 episodes of succession or however many 14 episodes of succession that we've had so far. I have never laughed so loud as Jeraine speech. That was like peak laugh out loud. Funny that speech. It was amazing.

[Emma]

It really wasn't what I was expecting. I don't know what I was expecting exactly, but it was so absurd. It did throw me for a loop. It wasn't like the suicide and the atn. It was more.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Emma]

Surprising.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Nicholas]

All of us will die someday. In this case, it is Lester who has done so. If Willa wrote that, I mean she's just gone straight up in my estimation.

[Emma]

Yeah. I think this was her episode to take a. So to take it to the next level.

[Alison]

Someone else who took it to the next level is cousin Greg.

[Nicholas]

Oh my God. Cousin Greg. Growing a pair.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Emma]

What did he say about his blackmail. I'll do your little blackmail or I agree to your little blackmail.

[Nicholas]

Right.

[Alison]

Tom was impressed.

[Emma]

I think he was really impressed and proud. Although I feel like it was. I mean, he obviously was quite destabilized because cousin Greg wanted to, you know, stretch his wings and fly away. And, you know, Tom didn't want to lose his little lap dog, basically.

[Alison]

Yeah. It's like, are you breaking up with him?

[Emma]

It was a breakup scene. It was a total breakup. And I think it was very triggering when cousin Greg said to him, it'll be like an open relationship. That's when Tom really snapped because obviously he has that with Shiv and he does not want any more open relationships. So that was the moment where he starts, you know, throwing the water bottles.

[Alison]

Pelting water bottles at him. Yeah.

[Nicholas]

Okay.

[Host]

Tom.

[Nicholas]

Hey. Hey, Tom.

[Host]

Tom.

[Nicholas]

We're good. We're good. We're good.

[Jerry]

We're good. It doesn't feel fucking good, Greg. What's this?

[Host]

Can we.

[Jerry]

I will not let you do this to me. I will not let go of what is mine. What am I doing? Stop pelting. Stop, stop, stop. Security, guys. No, you back off. You back off. This is executive level business, Jake. No, stop. Tom, we're friends. You're one of my best friends.

[Nicholas]

Which is a classic piece of, like, succession slapstick. Which a lot of people who hate succession hate it for those kind of scenes.

[Emma]

Really?

[Nicholas]

Yeah, I think.

[Alison]

Who hates succession?

[Nicholas]

I mean, we don't talk about those people on this show.

[Alison]

Never heard anyone say they hated it.

[Emma]

Who has time for that? There's too much prestige tv. You either love it or you ignore it.

[Nicholas]

But, yeah, no, I mean, it was definitely one of those performatively over the top scenes where Tom just starts throwing water bottles at cricket.

[Alison]

You can see him losing it. I mean, Tom is just like, punching bag, punching bag, punching bag. And like, yeah, at some point you're gonna crack.

[Emma]

Yeah, you're triggered. And off you go. And then he's like, quasi. Apologizes later and admits that sometimes he doesn't like who he is.

[Alison]

Right.

[Emma]

And I just. I continue to believe in Tom, and I feel empathy for him as one of the characters who is terrible.

[Nicholas]

But obviously that nugget of humanness uses human footstools. Where is the humanity in Tom Whammy's.

[Alison]

Well, in the last cast is like, you know, you gotta.

[Emma]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Alison]

Sorry I interrupted you.

[Emma]

No, that's fine. In the episode before, he had that really human moment when he saves Greg from On Bourne the floor. He doesn't tell that he knows that Greg is spoken to the biographer. He keeps his secret. And they have that moment where he puts his hand on his arm. That was like, one of the most touching moments.

[Alison]

And when he comes home and asks Shiv how her weekend was, and she says. And, you know, she sort of says, do you really want to know, or should we talk about this right now? And then he kind of. You see that he. His eyes fall and. Yeah, there's a lot to be sympathetic.

[Emma]

I think he's. He is definitely a sympathetic.

[Alison]

Also, he's smarter and funnier this season than he was. I mean, he was wonderful last season, but, like, this season, I feel like. Like the line that you said about the Easter eggs, like, he's pretty quick and funny. Like, he's not like, the dumb. Dumb in charge of ATN that I think I thought he was last season.

[Emma]

He's more complicated, I feel like. And we have more of a window into him than we have into Kendall, who's kind of like.

[Alison]

But I also. I also, like, I also have a soft spot for Kendall.

[Emma]

Do you really? I do.

[Nicholas]

Oh, my God.

[Alison]

Sorry.

[Emma]

I mean, I actually did tear up when he hugged Shiv.

[Alison]

I mean, he's just like a broken guy who. Family did this to him. Her.

[Emma]

I mean, it's just. Yeah, I do.

[Nicholas]

So. So, like, so. So the human furniture guy and the murderer guy, you're like, totally.

[Alison]

Shiv annoys me also, I felt.

[Emma]

I love Ravenhead.

[Alison]

No, I'm just kidding.

[Nicholas]

Wait, do you. Do you genuinely not like Shiv?

[Alison]

No, I like Shiv, but I. I. Like I said, I find the sort of. The show's attempt to make us think she's the one that's good a little bit.

[Emma]

I agree with that.

[Alison]

Overbearing. And I actually think they're all, like, you know, they all have their sympathetic moments. Roman, too. Like, you know, the only one who doesn't, I guess, is Logan.

[Emma]

Shiv is like, an elite liberal. Like, she doesn't really care about these things, but she's, like, on that side for some reason. You know what I mean? Like, she is definitely. She would sign the business roundtables pledge to do better than just for the shareholders, but she doesn't really care.

[Nicholas]

But, yeah, no, Tom, that scene where he's running down the hallway and he's like, executive's coming through. Oh, you're an executive. And then he's like, wait, we got the shit room.

[Emma]

Yeah, you really did get the shit room.

[Alison]

Wait, where are you? Not, like, where are you? Because I Care about you. And I'm worried about you. My dear wife. How good is your room?

[Nicholas]

I got the room with Greg, and you get the room with Logan. Like, whoops.

[Alison]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

But wait. Can we talk also about management training a little bit on our favorite character.

[Nicholas]

Oh, and Brian. We meet Brian. We love Brian.

[Alison]

Yes. Who is that guy? He's been in other things.

[Nicholas]

Is he an actor?

[Alison]

He's like a known person to me.

[Nicholas]

But Ryan is great. I'm intellectually promiscuous, but culturally conservative. I work hard, but I do not play hard. I play easy. Why would you play hard?

[Emma]

And I was like, yes, I want.

[Alison]

To use that line. Thank you, Brian.

[Tom]

What's your story? Hunky dory?

[Brian]

Me? I'm an enigma. You can't pigeonhole me. I'm there and then I'm gone. I'm intellectually promiscuous, but culturally conservative. I work hard, but I do not play hard. I play easy. Why would you play hard?

[Nicholas]

Good question.

[Tom]

And what is it you're doing right now?

[Brian]

I'm lurking like a dormant virus, biding my time in the Fort Myers resort, But I'm being stymied by a variety of enemies who are envious of my talents.

[Tom]

Obviously.

[Emma]

Genius.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Emma]

And Roman, I think he said something to Jerry about Brian. He wants to fast track what is.

[Alison]

Roman's name when he introduces himself.

[Emma]

Something Rockstone. Really?

[Alison]

Rick Rockstone?

[Nicholas]

Roy. Yeah. Ron Rockstone. Right, right.

[Emma]

Brian sees through that.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Emma]

And then they have their brilliant idea for an amusement park ride or a virtual reality war, which is not a brilliant idea, I don't think.

[Nicholas]

Jerry turns to Roman and she's like, what did she say? She has this very Jerry sign. You have signs? You're not building a ride that you came up with on the first day of management training. No. It's such a good idea.

[Alison]

I love when he walks in just at first, because we've seen so many trays of food every time they get together at the. When he, like, picks up a normal pastry and it's like, just a normal pastry, and so he can't actually eat.

[Nicholas]

It, but he puts it back.

[Emma]

Yeah, he put it back.

[Nicholas]

Yeah.

[Alison]

He doesn't care.

[Emma]

It was so gross. And did you catch the idea before they pitched their idea? It's a tunnel of love, but updated for the modern era. And it looks like a vagina. I was like, what? Management training. It's just like I thought it would be.

[Alison]

Yeah, exactly.

[Emma]

Ridiculous.

[Nicholas]

Poor Roman in America, having to deal with the normies.

[Emma]

And when the security guard comes to get him. And he was like, would you like to be moved to a safe place? He was like, hell, yeah. Hell, yes. And he's in the shittiest safe room of them all.

[Nicholas]

It's true. None of these rooms are safe except for the actual safe room.

[Emma]

So to sum up, I mean, what have we learned and what's coming next? Allison, thank you for asking.

[Nicholas]

Alison is the only person who actually knows what's coming next.

[Alison]

Yeah, I don't want to say. What do you guys think is coming next? Sorry, I watched ahead.

[Emma]

Well, I saw the preview at the end of the episode. It looks like things with the Pierces are going to heat up. There's going to be some kind of delicious all day kind of meeting or something. I'm sure there'll be lots of platters of fancy food. And we're moving forward on the Pierce acquisition, but I feel like ultimately this is my bet. I don't know that the Pierce acquisition won't happen because it would be too disruptive to the overall arc of succession. But that's just a guess.

[Nicholas]

Let's have some favorite lines.

[Alison]

Okay. My favorite line. There were lots of favorite lines. I don't know if this is my favorite line, but this is the one that I wrote down was at the funeral as Connor is delivering that moving eulogy as we discussed. And when he says, when a man dies, it is sad. Which really reminds me of, like, go, dog, go.

[Connor]

Hello. I'm here as a fellow human to acknowledge that Lester has, as we know, passed on. Lester was a man. Also, Lester was an employee of the waystar company for 40 years. And when a man dies, it is sad. All of us will die one day. In this case, it is Lester who has done so. Lester was alive for 78 years, but no more. Now he is dead. Lester's wife is Maria. They were married for 15 years. Now she is sad.

[Nicholas]

I have to say, all the best lines in this episode went to Rhea.

[Alison]

Huh?

[Nicholas]

Like when she. When she first meets Kendall, and she's like, oh, it's Oedipus, Roy. And then at the end when, like, she's. She's saying goodbye in the garage to Logan at the end, and she says. And he said, well, you know, let's hope it works. And she's like, well, if it doesn't, we'll always have the panic room.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Nicholas]

But my favorite. My favorite rare line is when Shiv tries to sell this merger to her and saying like. Like, Waystar isn't coming in to fuck you, but to make sweet, sweet Barry White, Investment, Love, Beauty, Saved by the Beast, and Rhea's, like, your most positive spin. Still sounds a bit rapey.

[Emma]

Yeah, that's true.

[Nicholas]

Yeah.

[Emma]

I feel like we have said all the lines, so I'm just reaching deep. And I guess when Roman tells Jerry that no amount of antibacterial gel is going to be able to wipe the America off me.

[Alison]

That's a good one.

[Nicholas]

It's a very Roman.

[Emma]

It's like the antibacterial gel, for some reason, previews kind of foreshadowing of what's to happen.

[Nicholas]

Foreshadowing.

[Emma]

Like, everything involving Roman involves antibacterial gel. You know what I mean?

[Nicholas]

He has covered himself in this, like, weird antibacterial.

[Emma]

Someone's gonna eat that paste in there.

[Nicholas]

He can't touch the world.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Nicholas]

Although that was that great line when.

[Emma]

He was talking about, he's spreading his germs everywhere. Don't you see? He likes. He masturbated in the office last season, and then on the phone with Jerry, he put his mouth on the pastry and put it back like, this man is disgusting.

[Nicholas]

That's all. Yeah. And then when he talks to Brian, he has that weird line about how. What does he like to do? I just like to, like, snort lines off girls who don't know their hookers yet. Oh. It's just he. I mean, you're right. He is in a show of incredibly unsympathetic characters. He is the most unsympathetic character.

[Alison]

Did I say that? Because I don't even know if I think that he's a little sympathetic. Wait, you have sympathy for Logan? I think Logan is the only one who's not sympathetic. No, I think particular this season, as they've, like, made him stronger, I have.

[Nicholas]

More sympathy for Logan than I do for Roman.

[Alison]

Why? Wait, what?

[Nicholas]

That whole thing about with the scars on his back and, like, the weird backstory.

[Alison]

Right?

[Emma]

Yeah, the scars on his back. And then I don't know who Lester molested, but Logan knew enough to tell his kids not to go in the swimming pool with him. Why would you know that?

[Alison]

You think Lester the molester molested Logan?

[Emma]

I don't know.

[Nicholas]

No, I don't think Lester the molester molested Logan.

[Alison]

Aren't they the same generation?

[Nicholas]

No, but there was, like, Ewan or someone like that who was. But Logan, I mean, just the way that he is rescuing his Kendall, his son. Right. Is out of love. It's not because of any kind of weird, selfish.

[Alison]

Well, that's what we're trying to figure Out. But I guess you feel that. That's.

[Nicholas]

I mean, I think that's why Kendall bursts into tears, right? He's like, dad actually saved me.

[Emma]

Wait, what?

[Alison]

When he's hugging Shiv at the end.

[Emma]

I thought he was hugging Shiv Cause he felt a human connection to her. Cause he is a human.

[Alison]

When a man dies, it is sad. I'm here as a human.

[Nicholas]

So, no, I think that, you know, ever since the first episode, Roman has been this, like, broken robot Kendall. So Kendall has been a broken robot. And then finally he hugs Shiv and he's like, oh, my God, this favor that dad is doing, bringing me in to help.

[Emma]

Oh, right. When he says, keep me, I hope.

[Alison]

Take care of me. Yeah.

[Nicholas]

He's like, it's not gonna be me. He's like, he's genuinely come to the realization that there's no way he's gonna take over the company. He's just here to not self destruct and probably die in a crack then somewhere. I mean, you remember that scene where he. Where, like, Roman has to rescue him from, you know, the meth. The meth. So, yeah, there's a little, like, scintilla of humanity on Romans, but he maybe once cared a tiny bit about his brother.

[Alison]

They care about each other. They do care about each other. You said earlier the Shiv hates him, Kendall. No, I don't think so.

[Emma]

I think they actually do love each other, but they're prevented from expressing that in a healthy way because Logan has pitted them against each other so they can't. That's what they say when you're a parent. They say, don't play favorites among your children because it'll poison their relationship. And that is exactly what Logan has done to his children. But beneath that, there is still love.

[Alison]

I totally agree.

[Nicholas]

This is the most sympathetic reading of succession I think I'm ever gonna find. Alison, are you just like a big, soft hearted, cushy, you know.

[Alison]

Yes.

[Nicholas]

Romantic.

[Alison]

I don't know. I like to see the good in people. I relate. Yeah.

[Nicholas]

Do you think maybe that's.

[Alison]

I relate to things in all of them?

[Nicholas]

Do you think that's why people don't like succession, is because it's the way.

[Alison]

I think you've made up people. You're like Trump having imaginary friends. I don't think there are people who don't like succession.

[Nicholas]

I think there are people who don't like succession. And one of the reasons they don't like succession is because it does make us feel a tiny little bit of sympathy for these objectively dressed people.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Emma]

Oh, I thought you were saying people don't like it because the people are so utterly unsympathetic. Cause that is a classic turnoff for people in TV shows.

[Alison]

You have no one to like. There's no one to ruin the world.

[Nicholas]

But that's what premium TV is, right? That's like Kirby or enthusiastic Tony Soprano or Veep or anything like that. Like, everyone is a dreadful character, and people don't like, oh, I can't watch Veep because everyone's dreadful.

[Alison]

But these aren't antiheroes. These are like some. These are a different thing. Right? Yeah.

[Emma]

They're not anti heroes.

[Alison]

Yes, yes. Like, Tony Soprano was very clear. He's like this violent mobster, and he loves his children, and he, like, you know, you saw both sides. This is not presented like that. But I do see. I do feel bad for almost all of them.

[Emma]

Yeah. I think we do need to understand Logan more, because right now he isn't. We can't have that sympathy for him. He can't be an anti hero until we. Until we understand why he has the scars on his back.

[Alison]

And we don't understand that.

[Emma]

Marriage, right. Yeah, his marriage.

[Nicholas]

Yeah. This has been the big disappointment of season two so far, and I suspect of season two overall is that we don't get the whole Marcia plotline that I was looking forward to.

[Alison]

Yeah, they kind of dropped. That was some of the drama. If she's after his money, is she trying to control what's happening? Then they completely dropped that, and they dropped him being frail and on his way.

[Nicholas]

And if you want to bring in interesting, strong female characters, you don't actually need to bring in a whole matriarchy of Pierce. You can actually do things with Marcia as well. But evidently they've decided to bring in the Pierce matriarchy instead.

[Alison]

Yeah.

[Nicholas]

Which I guess we will get more of in episode five.

[Alison]

I'm surmising, I will not say, because I don't want to get this podcast in trouble.

[Nicholas]

In any case, we will be back here next Monday with the episode five recap. And, yeah, there will be more Pierce. I'm sure there will be more Pierce. And, yeah, I don't think Holly Hunter was bad.

[Alison]

I didn't say she was bad. I just think it's like a gimmick that shows do like to bring in a celebrity. They didn't need a celebrity to play that role.

[Nicholas]

It did not need to be a celebrity. And certainly, like Sid, I have no idea who the actress is, but she's way better than that?

[Emma]

Yeah, she's Elaine May's daughter.

[Alison]

What?

[Nicholas]

No way.

[Emma]

Yeah, I googled her the other day.

[Alison]

Elaine May's daughter. Oh, that's good. That's a better find.

[Emma]

Sorry.

[Alison]

Than the like. Is this legit that I'm looking at into this.

[Emma]

Oh, thank you. I don't have much more to say about Elaine May, though.

[Nicholas]

Oh, my God. Can we just mention Sid's great line where she's talking to cousin Greg and she's like, what do you do for Tom? And he's like, you know, lattes.

[Emma]

The lattes flowing.

[Nicholas]

And she's like, do you milk him?

[Alison]

She's great.

[Emma]

Yeah, I like her a lot.

[Nicholas]

She's awesome.

[Emma]

I'd like to see more of her. This show's great for older women, huh?

[Alison]

Yeah, I hadn't thought about that.

[Emma]

Jerry, Marcia, Jerry doing their part. Holly Hunter.

[Nicholas]

And now soon as some point, all of the the Pierce women are going.

[Emma]

To be the woman who plays the Pierce matriarch I saw in the preview is someone we'll. We'll tell you next week signing.