Slate Money: Travel

Summary

Slate Money: Travel (February 19, 2019)

Hosted by Felix Salmon, with guest Cathy O’Neil

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Episode Overview

This special “Slate Money: Travel” episode sees host Felix Salmon and recurring guest Cathy O’Neil (mathematician, data scientist, and author) diving into the economics, realities, and existential highs and lows of modern travel—particularly business travel. Through a candid conversation, they explore the unglamorous side of frequent flying, coping mechanisms for jet lag, the quest for sleep, travel optimization, and why even those who could travel in style sometimes have their complaints. It’s a witty, revealing exchange full of practical insights and self-aware humor, perfect for travelers and armchair adventurers alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Truth Behind “Jet-Setting Glamour”

• Travel Fatigue and the Downside of Perks

  • Cathy, who’s spent the year flying for speaking gigs, quickly sets the tone: even business class privileges can’t mask the isolating, exhausting side of nonstop travel.
  • "You're here to tell us there's nothing glamorous about it." — Felix [06:26]
  • Cathy skipped the exclusive Davos conference, partly due to poor accommodations:
    "They just did not offer me good accommodations. ... If you're really, really not fancy, they just make you work for free. And that was like my level." [02:37–03:10]
  • She emphasizes the importance of sleep, noting the impracticality of shuttle buses and inconvenient hotel arrangements for someone who needs regular naps. [03:50–04:16]

• The Loneliness of Business Travel

  • Even luxury travel involves loneliness and a feeling of emptiness:
    "No matter how nice the food is, you’re... exhausted, you’re going somewhere where you don’t know anyone, you have no friends, you feel lonely, you’re over full... and you end up just sort of like, why am I not at home with my kids, like yelling at me?" — Cathy [07:41]
  • Felix jokes about preferring the “worst moment of family life” to being plied with endless gin and tonics by a flight attendant. [08:17]

2. Travel Logistics, Preferences, and Sleep Obsession

• Why Sleep is Non-Negotiable

  • Cathy describes how sleep shapes every aspect of her travel, from flights to hotel choices:

    • "For me, it’s all about sleep... I actually consider it torture to be that tired and not be able to lie down..." [14:36]

  • Frequent frustration with hotels not allowing early check-in post-red-eye flights, even when booking extra nights:
    "I guess the more I talk to you, the more I realize how crazy I am about sleep." — Cathy [14:24]

• Travel Class Calculations – Business vs Coach

  • Cathy admits she refuses international gigs if forced to fly coach for overnight flights, but is content with coach for holidays (especially when with family) or domestic, daytime flights. [11:06–12:58]
  • Traveling with loved ones shifts the experience dramatically:
    "Being with somebody you love is like a thousand times better, no matter where you are, than being lonely." — Cathy [12:17]

• The (Unfortunate) Art of Optimization

  • Felix positions himself as an “anti-optimizer,” advocating for building waste and slack into itineraries rather than squeezing every minute for productivity:
    "I think waste is good. Waste of time is good." [24:32]
  • Cathy’s approach is ultra-planned—down to packing the right number of peanut butter crackers for her trips:
    "It's like two packages per day... 12 crackers is a small meal." [25:44–25:52]

3. The Psychology and Economics of Travel (and its Vices)

• Air Travel, Carbon Guilt, and First-World Problems

  • Cathy and Felix debate the carbon footprint of business class vs coach and question how travel habits contribute to environmental impact.
    "I really should be spending way more time feeling ashamed of my... carbon footprint, which is horrible." — Cathy [08:46]
  • Cathy’s only eco-consolation: she doesn’t own a car and lives in NYC. [10:37]

• Alcohol and Sleeping Pills as Coping Mechanisms

  • Alcohol is acknowledged as both a comfort and a cause of travel woes:
    • "The weird thing about alcohol ... on one hand that argument makes a lot of sense, and on the other hand, it would be chaos if there was no alcohol [on planes]." — Cathy [22:21]
    • Felix explains how taste is dulled at altitude and why people crave tomato juice or gin and tonics. [21:45]
  • Ambien (sleeping pills) divides the hosts:
    • Cathy fears using them, worried about their effects; Felix swears by them for eastbound travel jet lag.
    • "Colin Powell once said that there was literally no way he could do his job as Secretary of State if it wasn't for Ambien." — Felix [16:46]

4. Not All Destinations are Created Equal—Food & Hospitality

• Best/Worst Experiences

  • Cathy’s worst experience: hours stranded before hotel check-in, being repeatedly and rudely awakened by hotel staff. [15:27–16:03]
  • The best: the food and hospitality at the Shilla Hotel in Seoul, South Korea, including an “actual harpist at the breakfast buffet” and French pastries superior even to Paris:
    "It was the best freaking food I’ve ever had..." — Cathy [29:35]
  • Regret over not being able to eat more due to stomach surgery:
    "The only moment of regret I’ve had since my surgery was at the buffet at this place..." [30:54]

• Travel as a Catalyst for Existential Reflection

  • Big, round-the-world trips lead to feelings of dislocation—“the haze of jet lag”—akin to the mood of Lost In Translation:
    "By the time I got to Seoul, I was so confused, it was otherworldly. I wouldn’t even call it jet lag anymore..." — Cathy [27:00]
  • Business travel provides time and solitude for deep thinking, helpful when writing a book, but also amplifies loneliness:
    "Loneliness is good for thinking too. So it’s actually been pretty useful to me as a lifestyle." — Cathy [31:52]

5. Practical Tips (and Where to Find More)

• Packing and mindset tips are promised in detail on Cathy’s blog (mathbabe.org):
  • "Your tips are all there on mathbabe.org." — Felix [33:58]
  • Cathy summarizes: how to pack effectively and, more importantly, coping mentally—“How to not be miserable. Existential.” [34:08–34:27]
  • She recommends opening yourself up to strangers and new places to reduce loneliness.

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Memorable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• On “Glamour” of Business Travel:
  • "No matter how nice the food is... you're exhausted, you're going somewhere where you don't know anyone, you have no friends, you feel lonely..." — Cathy [07:41]
• On Airplane Food and Drink:
  • "You end up just sort of like, why am I not at home with my kids, yelling at me?" — Cathy [07:54]
  • "Your taste in airplanes is totally different from your taste on land." — Felix [22:16]
• On Ambien and Jet Lag:
  • "Colin Powell once said that there was literally no way he could do his job as Secretary of State if it wasn't for Ambien." — Felix [16:46]
  • "Jet lag is fucking with your sleep. Ambien is just a way of trying to marginally unfuck with your sleep." — Felix [17:16]
• On Packing Snack Supplies:
  • "It's like two packages [of peanut butter crackers] per day...12 crackers is a small meal..." — Cathy [25:44]
• On Cultural Differences and Technology:
  • "The questions [in Seoul] were so deep. And I really think it’s because they think about technology and the...threat of technology in a way that we cannot understand because...the Chinese social credit score is a real thing for them." — Cathy [28:22]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:48 — The “over-traveling” theme, Cathy’s business travel fatigue
• 02:37 — Why Cathy skipped Davos (accommodations, status, sleep)
• 06:05 — “Schiphol” pronunciation and travel pain points
• 07:41 — The isolation and trade-offs of glamorous travel
• 14:36 — The desperation for sleep and hotel check-in woes
• 15:27 — Cathy’s worst hotel experience
• 16:32 — The sleeping pills discussion
• 21:45 — Drinking on planes and altered taste buds
• 22:29 — Should alcohol be banned from flights?
• 24:02 — Optimization vs. “waste”: travel philosophy
• 25:44 — Cathy’s peanut butter cracker optimization system
• 27:00 — The “Lost in Translation” effect of extreme jet lag
• 29:35 — The best hotel breakfast ever (in Seoul)
• 31:52 — Travel’s role in deep thinking and book writing
• 33:58 — Where to find Cathy’s practical travel tips (mathbabe.org)

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Tone and Style

The episode is informal, witty, and self-deprecating, with Felix’s dry humor and Cathy’s confessional candor. Both bring literary and pop culture references (“Lost In Translation”) and a dose of existential reflection amid practical advice.

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For More

Cathy O’Neil’s travel and packing advice, as well as her reflective travel writing, can be found at mathbabe.org. The hosts encourage listener emails and feedback for their travel series.

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Summary prepared for: “Slate Money: Travel” (Feb 19, 2019), featuring Felix Salmon and Cathy O’Neil.

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to Sleep Money Travel. Yes, this is Tuesday, or at least it came out on Tuesday. I don't know when you're listening to it, but this is a very special Slate Money Travel episode of Slate Money. It's a little miniseries that we're doing all about the economics and business and finance and just general everything of travel. But mainly what it is is an excuse to bring Cathy o' Neill back onto Slate Money. Kathy, you're here.

[B]

I'm here.

[A]

Welcome.

[B]

Thank you so much. I miss you guys.

[A]

What are we going to talk about today?

[B]

I think we're going to talk about over traveling and how to do it right.

[A]

You've been traveling too much.

[B]

Way much, way too much.

[A]

And you are sick of the business class lifestyle.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. Make it sound pretty bad. Yes, that's right.

[A]

So we're gonna.

[B]

There's downsides to business class.

[A]

We're gonna talk about the downsides to business class. We're gonna talk about the one time that you wanted to eat food, which was so amazing that, like, yeah, it's not gonna come as a surprise because this is the country with the best food in the world.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

We're gonna talk about how much you love Paris. We're gonna talk about how to pronounce the airport in Amsterdam. We are gonna talk about peanut butter crackers.

[B]

This is gonna be so good.

[A]

It's gonna be a fun show because it has Kathy o' Neill on it and Kathy o' Neill is the best person. So welcome, Kathy.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

We are gonna talk about the jet setting life of the one and only Cathy o'. Neill. Coming up on Slate Money Travel. Cathy o', Neill, you did not go to Davos.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

I scored it. Neither did I. I mean, I feel.

[B]

Really good about us.

[A]

I feel like we made the right decision.

[B]

I feel like maybe, you know all those stories, they said, like, peak Davos has passed. I think that was because of us.

[A]

It was, yeah. The minute I stopped going, it became irrelevant.

[B]

I kind of feel that way. I was never invited until this year, so I can't really say I contributed a lot to its demise.

[A]

You participated in a handful of Davos podcasts from the warmth of a New York studio.

[B]

That's true. That's true. I feel like I was in collusion.

[A]

You colluded with the Davos industrial elite.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

No more. And this is actually. This is actually germane to our topic of conversation. The reason why you didn't go to Davos, right, is.

[B]

Well, it's multifaceted. But one of them was simply that they just did not offer me good accommodations. I'm not gonna lie, it was outrageous what they were suggesting for my travel and for my stay. And also basically, I mean, I don't know how it really is set up. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is like, if you're fancy, you don't have to pay. If you're not fancy, you have to pay. And if you're really, really not fancy, they just make you work for free. And that was like my level. I was going to work for them.

[A]

Everyone pays in one way or another.

[B]

Exactly, yes. So my job was to go be essentially unpaid. Talk about how we shouldn't get too excited about artificial intelligence, um, and not be invited to the parties where the fancy people talk about how they're going to replace their workforces with artificial intelligence. That was my job. And I was like, I don't really love that job. Um, also you're trying to, you're trying to like put me in a hotel which is like 40 minutes away from anything. And I'm, I'm just really bad with that, that plan especially because as I think, you know, I've told you this, I'm a napper. I nap.

[A]

I'm like, napping is important, especially when.

[B]

There'S a lot of jet lag situations, you know. So I was like, I need a place to nap, so tell me where I can n at Davos. If you're gonna put me in a Hotel a 40 minute drive from the frickin place, then at least give me a nap.

[A]

Was it in Wolfgang or like in clusters?

[B]

Something like Clusters. Yeah, I don't, I don't remember exactly. There's like, oh, there's a shuttle bus. It runs every 25 minutes and it takes 25 minutes. I was like, no, no, that's not. Not okay.

[A]

It's not nap convenient.

[B]

It's super not. And, and I was just like, but you know what I can just sleep at, you know, in, in a, you know, in a corner somewhere. I was like desperate. I was like on my knees, like, let me just fall asleep there. And they're like, no, that's, that would be inappropriate.

[A]

But yeah, you're absolutely right. I think that if everyone is tired, which everyone is because they stay up super late, right?

[B]

And they also wouldn't let me come a day early. They wouldn't let me do that.

[A]

They wouldn't let you do that to get over jet lag. If you wanted to come A day early. You'd need to sort of work out.

[B]

Well, they said I could do it, but it would cost approximately $1,000 for me.

[A]

You would have to pay for.

[B]

Yeah, I'd have to pay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And not to mention that, like, they're not paying for my meals. I just understand. It's like a $50 hamburger at Davos.

[A]

The hamburgers can get expensive.

[B]

I mean, possibly I could just live on the cheese and other free nibbles, I assume, that exist everywhere.

[A]

It's entirely possible to go the week of Davos without spending a single cent on anything.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, look, I could have gone, but I was just like, why should I make you feel better? I feel like I'm. I'm officially window dressing. And I get that, but I'm also like, I need to. I. To take naps. I mean, it's just like, my bottom line.

[A]

But just to be clear here, they were actually going to fly you over business class.

[B]

But not direct. But not direct.

[A]

But not direct.

[B]

That's the other thing I was like, what? Like, no, I. I get a fly direct, I'm not going to, like, get stuck in some random place, which is my experience. Every single time you go, you.

[A]

You wind up. You wind up missing your connection in Shifol, and then you're stuck in shift.

[B]

Oh, my God, is that a place?

[A]

That's a massive airport in Amsterdam.

[B]

Oh, you mean Schiphol.

[A]

Okay, you're married to a Dutchman. I shouldn't know how that.

[B]

At the very least, you have to acknowledge the P that is in that you just said sifle.

[A]

I thought the ph.

[B]

Like a hole.

[A]

Schiphol.

[B]

Schiphol.

[A]

Schiphol. Okay. Okay. So the first thing that we have learned on this podcast is how to pronounce Schiphol.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

Which I didn't know.

[B]

It's like, if you're hawking a belugie, you're doing it right.

[A]

Okay, so are there any other airport pronunciations I should know about?

[B]

Oh, oh, you know what? That was like, my only one. You found it.

[A]

But I'm fascinated by this because I think there is this general feeling in the ether, and I think you've picked up on this on your blog, that if someone comes along to you and offers you thousands of dollars worth of business class travel and hobnobby experience atop an Alp, that this is something which obviously you would accept because it's so glamorous and you're here to tell us there's nothing glamorous about it.

[B]

I mean, I Didn't go. So I really can't tell you how unglamorous it is.

[A]

But you have done a bunch of business class travel now that you're a glamorous person.

[B]

Right? Right. I'm on the talking circuit.

[A]

You're on the speaker circuit. You have a speaking agent, I have an agent. And the thing that agents always do is they insert, insist on first class airfare everywhere. At least business class. Business class, yeah.

[B]

I've never flown. Flown first class, international, no. That's when you get your own personal masseuse, I believe. Never seen that.

[A]

You've never got a massage on an airplane?

[B]

Oh, my God, no.

[A]

No.

[B]

But I have fantasies about it. Like, don't get me wrong, if you.

[A]

Got a massage on an airplane, would that actually make it better than staying at home watching television?

[B]

I mean, that's what it comes down to. Thank you, Felix. That's exactly the right frame. Which is that when you're, when you're fl. No matter how nice the food is, you're, you know, you're exhausted, you're going somewhere where you don't know anyone, you have no friends, you feel lonely, you're over full. Like, they feed you too much, they give you way too much alcohol, which you drink because you're lonely and alone and exhausted. And you end up just sort of like, why, why am I not at home with my kids, like, yelling at me? You know, you just realize like the.

[A]

Worst moment of your family life having your kids yelling at you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, I would much rather have my kids yell at me than have some trolley dolly coming up asking me if I want my 14th gin and tonic.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. 14th is the number I always had in mind. And you know, it's. It sounds like such a, such a crappy, you know, complaint. And it really is. And because I do get paid for.

[A]

Those things, it's kind of a first world problem.

[B]

It's a first world problem. And by the way, I really should be spending way more time feeling ashamed of my. My footprint.

[A]

Your carbon footprint.

[B]

My carbon footprint, which is horrible.

[A]

Okay, so let me, let me do a little detour here. Yeah. What's your opinion of the relative carbon footprint between someone sitting in business and someone on the same flight, sitting in coach? Do they have the same carbon footprint or does the business class passenger have a larger carbon footprint?

[B]

I guess it depends on a lot of ways of thinking about that question. Since I'm a modeler, I will throw out a few of them. Is it the sort of floor space that you inhabit or is every plane of goodwill we assume to have some business class and some other seats, you know, in that. In which case you could, you could or could not account for that. Probably much more meaningful would be your weight.

[A]

I think your weight is negligible in comparison to the weight of the airplane.

[B]

My. That's a good question. I know that if the airplane's small. That's not true at all. Like I've been on an airplane.

[A]

Oh, and tiny little puddle jumpers.

[B]

Yeah, they'll weigh you.

[A]

How much do you weigh? And you get on the scale and you're like, I don't want to look at what this is. You get on the scale with all of your clothes and your luggage and you're like, this is how much I actually weigh.

[B]

I'm like, woo, I shouldn't have brought that 25 pound ton of bricks in my luggage. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I mean, but you asked me to think about your carbon footprint.

[A]

I mean, do you think about your carbon footprint when you travel somewhere?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, damn. And when you mentally think about your carbon footprint, do you mentally multiply it by a certain number in order to make up for the fact that you're a flying business?

[B]

No, I don't do that. So my personal mental model doesn't include that I don't always fly business.

[A]

But because my mental model, it's more.

[B]

Like miles, I think about it in terms of miles.

[A]

You think that there's a carbon emission sort of per air mile per hour traveled. And so yeah, you have kids and lots of air miles, which is just like the most lethal combination.

[B]

The only thing I can say for myself is that I don't own a car and I live in New York City, so in some ways I'm less horrible. But not really.

[A]

But not really. Okay. So flying business, at least in. In Kathy's brain. Yeah. Doesn't necessarily kill the planet particularly badly. Although. Versus flying coach. Coach. So you can. You don't feel too bad about asking for upgrades on that? On that ground? No.

[B]

And it's actually, maybe I should. I mean, like you're making me think. Because here's the thing, here's the calculation I actually make, which is if you fly me coach, I simply won't go because it'll be so miserable and I won't be able to sleep at all. And then I will hate my life and I'll regret it. You know, I mean, just like I won't go. So business class makes it.

[A]

Toler, will you fly coach on holiday?

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

[A]

So what makes it less miserable? How. Why is it so much more miserable when you're on your own compared to when you have screaming kids?

[B]

Well, first of all, my kids don't scream anymore. They just scream at me at home. To clarify, I think the real thing is that when you're on holiday, your mindset is completely different and you just. You're enjoying yourself. You're enjoying the experience itself.

[A]

Do you enjoy the experience of sitting in an airplane to the destination you're flying off to? Even if it's Schiphol?

[B]

Even. Especially if it's Kipal? Because then we're visiting family. Yeah. We get to plan the trip and we're together. And being with somebody you love is like a thousand times better, no matter where you are, than being lonely.

[A]

So basically, if I'm sitting in coach on my own, I have every right to feel sorry for myself. But if I'm sitting in coach next to someone I love, then I should just be very happy that I'm not alone in business.

[B]

For sure. That's a very nice way of framing it. Yes. Look, I mean, I sometimes, as I said, I fly coach. I flew coach to San Francisco and back last week because my client is only willing to pay for that. And it didn't make me not do it. You know, I was like, okay, but.

[A]

That'S about the limit of how far.

[B]

You'Ll go to San Francisco.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I don't mind Coach Domestic. Basically, it's the intern. It's the. It's the sleeping is the problem.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's actually, you know, there's one. There's one trip I won't make on Coach Domestic is like a red eye. I can't stand missing sleep.

[A]

So you took a very early flight back from San Francisco to New York.

[B]

So that I get home by midnight.

[A]

You lost the whole day, but it's worth it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

If I offered you that flight, because there's always one flight from, you know, New York to Stripol, which is the daytime flight, would you do that?

[B]

Coach? I always tried to get that flight. I've never managed to get that flight. I've never. I. It's like, there must be a lot of people like me. I don't buy my tickets that well in advance, which is my mistake, but I have never been able to.

[A]

It's always sold out.

[B]

It's always sold out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I end up. Basically, I end up taking coach tickets with my family to Schiphol. And then the first thing I do And I'm a neurotic person. Like, you know me, I'm a planner. So what I'll do is I'll like, I will. Because the Free King hotels in Amsterdam and all over Holland will not let you check in early. They will not.

[A]

This is true of the hotels in London.

[B]

I hate them so much.

[A]

In fact, it's true of hotels all over the world. It's just the only people who really realize it are the people who fly in on a red eye and then they get in at 8 o' clock in the morning and then like, I really need a shower and a bed. And the hotel is like, well, you should have booked an extra night in that case, right?

[B]

No, but I do sometimes book an extra night. And even then they're like, sorry you didn't show up, so we gave your room away. It's happened to me multiple times. So this is where I am right now. I'm just like, I guess the more I talk to you, the more I realize how crazy I am about sleep. For me, it's all about sleep.

[A]

It's all about having a place to sleep.

[B]

It's all about like. I actually consider it torture to be that tired and not be able to lie down and take a nap. It's really hard. I cry.

[A]

I can tell you that. The two most vivid memories I have of business travel were both instances, one in Brazil and one in Paris, where I was alone in a hotel room in the middle of the night and kind of jet lagged maybe a bit. But mainly there was. I. I was just in a very noisy place and there was a bunch of people outside being merry and jolly and singing and screaming and I couldn't sleep and they were too loud and it was horrible. I would have done anything to just like I said, shut the fuck up.

[B]

My worst experience in this realm is like one time got to Holland, I think it was outside of Amsterdam. They made me wait six hours to check into my room and I'm sure the room was ready. They were just like, no, that's the time, it's 2 o', clock, check in, we're not letting you in. You know, two o' clock comes in, they finally let me in and for whatever reason, the door doesn't really lock to my hotel room. So I'm like finally lying down. And the people from the hotel keep on opening the door and walking into my room, seeing me asleep and then walking out and slamming the door behind it. It happened like four times in one hour.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

And I was like, I will kill you. And I'm not a violent person, but I was like, I will kill you if you do that again. So, yeah, I'm kind of neurotic about sleep, now that I think of it.

[A]

And you always travel with, like, throwing stars, which you can keep under your pillow so that if someone comes in, you can kill them.

[B]

Right, Right. I do have nunchucks with me. No. But I was just thinking about this, like, given how neurotic I am about sleep, one of the things that I find funny about myself is that I have never taken sleeping pills.

[A]

Sleeping pills are the best.

[B]

Everybody around me on airplanes, especially on business class, are asleep, and the moment we take off on a night flight, and I'm like, they're taking sleeping pills, aren't they?

[A]

It's true.

[B]

Could you explain that to me?

[A]

Colin Powell once said that there was literally no way he could do his job as Secretary of State if it wasn't for Ambien.

[B]

So I'm just so afraid of it. I want you to talk me into being a user. Like, I have friends who got into that stuff. I'm just afraid, I guess, maybe because sleep is so important to me. I'm just like, I don't want to fuck with my sleep.

[A]

I mean, fucking with your sleep is what you do when you cross time zones on airplanes.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Jet lag is fucking with your sleep.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Ambien is just a way of trying to marginally unfuck with your sleep.

[B]

I feel like we're gonna get a lot of users, like, listeners writing in saying, do not take Ambien.

[A]

I mean, Ambien is dangerous, but what's dangerous about it? I mean, there are two dangers to Ambien. One is that you, like, get up in the middle of the night and start, like, saying crazy things to, oh, that's not stewardesses that, like, oh, God. I can send you some text messages that my wife sent her best friend on Ambien once, which is just hilarious. But, no, the real thing with Ambien is just a question of how often do you take it and how often do you travel? I'm pretty strict about, I never take it when I'm traveling west. I only take it when I'm traveling east, and I take it west is.

[B]

When you miss your night.

[A]

If you're going. I never have a problem with coming west. If I'm coming back to New York from Europe, I don't have a problem with that. I. You know, I get up a little bit earlier than I normally Would in New York. And I feel like, that's awesome. I'm up early. I get.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, I got confused for a second. Yeah.

[A]

So I'm traveling, so I'll do a. I might take one on a pill on the plane. I will always take a pill the first full night that I spend in Europe, and often the second as well. And it just helps get you on that schedule and helps you sleep through the night. Because otherwise, at least with me, I always wake up at like, 2 or 3 in the morning, wide awake, and I'm like, what the hell?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I hate myself.

[B]

Yeah, it's bad. It's really bad. I have all sorts of complicated tricks because I don't use Ambien.

[A]

And I think if you did that on the reg, if you were, like, taking it every week, you know, that would be really bad. But if I only travel, if I only do that kind of international travel a few times a year, it's okay.

[B]

Is it a street drug? Is it one of those things, like, you get prescribed by the doctor and then you could sell your extras on the street?

[A]

I've never tried to sell my extras on the street. I do know that, like, there are certain countries, you know, if you go to, like, Chile or something, you can just like, buy it over the counter.

[B]

But you have to get a doctor.

[A]

But here, you need a prescription.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, I'm not going to do it. I just. It just scares me.

[A]

I have to say. I'm a little bit, like, I'm always a little bit sort of going up to my doctor and saying, can I have an ambience prescription? He's like, sure. But I'm like, you know, I feel like, so bad even asking because it's just. It's just for. I mean, it does help me function. Otherwise, I'm just a zombie.

[B]

I am a zombie. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right.

[A]

Although one of the weird things about business travel is that I find that when you are in the conference or if you're up there on stage giving your speech, or if you're mingling with the crowd and someone's talking to you, like, somehow that kind of sensory overload and nervousness and intensity, it makes whatever tiredness you feel like kind of just disappear.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

You just don't notice it at all.

[B]

And that's why the talking circuit exists. I mean, as it does. Right. If. If everybody were, like, really incapable of functioning after jet lag, then it wouldn't work. But. But this miracle happens right before you Go on stage in front of, you know, 2,000 people, you know, which is like you basically shit your pants, right? You know, and you. I personally, I'll just run to the bathroom. And then after that I'm just like, I am awake right now and I will give my talk and be completely wide awake for the question and answer period afterwards. And then, then I'll resume zombie immediately.

[A]

Immediately. It takes me 30 to 60 minutes to. For my heart to start beating at a normal level.

[B]

Okay. Usually I have time for one glass of white wine OR 2.

[A]

OR 2.

[B]

Can we talk about alcohol a little bit more?

[A]

Let's talk about alcohol because that's actually a much more dangerous drug than Ambien.

[B]

And that's probably why I should switch to Ambien. But my. Look, I. So first of all, you mentioned just now that, like, what we do to ourselves actually makes things worse by drinking more, but we do it anyway. And I feel like that is the weird thing about alcohol. Like, also I read that you get more drunk when you're in an airplane drinking than if you were on the land drinking. You're basically collide with alcohol.

[A]

It's the same. And the pressure inside an airline cabin is the same as the air pressure at 10,000ft. So I mean, it does a couple of things. Number one is it kind of deadens your taste buds. So that's why everyone orders tomato juice on airplanes. It's because it's like salty and umami and they want that kind of hit.

[B]

Because they taste good. It's probably why I can drink gin and tonic so much in an airplane, but not on land, because I'm like, man, that's nasty.

[A]

Your taste in airplanes is totally different from your taste on land. Yeah, that's. I don't understand if it's true.

[B]

So I read an article about this. This idea that somebody had, which is that alcohol is a bad idea on airplanes and we should make it. We should ban it.

[A]

Ban it.

[B]

I know. And there were all these, like, good thought, thoughtful reasons about how it's too effective and how people get over drunk and then they had to be removed and all these fights that happened that wouldn't be happening otherwise. And I was left feeling like, on the one hand that that argument makes a lot of sense, and on the other hand, it would be chaos if there was no alcohol on fly on, on out on airplanes. Because, like everyone I know, that's how they get through it. It's like a slog. It's a psychological problem.

[A]

So one of the things I Always I see quite often on Twitter is people asking, you know, writing these sort of quasi rhetorical questions, saying, I'm in such and such an Airport at 8:30 in the morning and there's all these guys lined up drinking whiskeys. Like why are they drinking whiskey at 8:30 in the morning?

[B]

And someone always says it's happy hour somewhere.

[A]

Yeah, I don't, Yeah, I mean that's.

[B]

That'S the obvious answer, but it's not that at all.

[A]

Yeah, it's not that. What is it?

[B]

It's an existential angst. It is absolutely like the. Just, I can't believe I am here. I'm in an airplane, I'm in the most sterile, uninteresting, like angsty, angst ridden place in the universe and there's nobody I can cry to.

[A]

Okay, on which note, I think we're going to leave it right there and come back and talk about some tough economic questions.

[B]

Sounds good.

[A]

The last thing I want to ask you is this whole idea of optimization.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

So you're an optimizer.

[B]

I am.

[A]

And I feel I'm an anti optimizer.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I feel like optimization is what causes all of these problems that people are trying to squeeze too much stuff into too little time and that it, you know, they wind up not giving themselves the natural sort of breathing room that you need in order to be able to function effectively. So you have. But you, but wouldn't you just say.

[B]

They'Re optimizing to the wrong thing?

[A]

No, I just think, I mean, I think you want to just have waste. I think waste is good. Waste of time is good. Waste of money is less good. But it's also, but especially if you're not, if it's someone else's money, it's fine. Right. I mean, so like when you, when you do your speaking gigs and they put you up in obviously like some glamorous, probably a conference hotel since it's invariably at the conference.

[B]

Yes. Sometimes it's pretty nice. In South Korea. It was crazy.

[A]

How much, like how much do you sort of indulge in like minibar craziness?

[B]

Quite a lot. Quite a lot. But I think that's more nature, the nature of traveling and being jet lagged, which is that you get there and it's 4pm and you really should just take a shower and go to dinner, but you can't because you're exhausted. So instead you just take a quick nap and when you wake up, it's midnight and everything's closed and you're like oh, my God. I haven't eaten anything and all I have is peanut butter crackers in this mini bar. And I don't wanna finish my peanut butter crackers before, like, the last three days of my journey.

[A]

So how many peanut butter crackers do you travel with?

[B]

Depends on the length of my trip. It's like a per. How many days is my trip?

[A]

All right, so how many packages?

[B]

It's like two packages per day.

[A]

And how many peanut butter crackers per package?

[B]

Six.

[A]

Six. Okay, so like a dozen crackers a day.

[B]

I mean. Yeah.

[A]

Is a good, like.

[B]

Because like 12 crackers is a. Is a small meal. And if, you know, if you find yourself once a day being like, oh, I'm inappropriately hungry and there's nothing I can do except eat these crackers, then that's. That's what you do.

[A]

It's life saving.

[B]

It's like, not very good. I had to tell you. But that's actually how I've optimized it. So it's like, if it were really good, I'd probably go crazy and eat all my crackers. Right. So it can't be really delicious.

[A]

Or maybe you could just pack more in that case.

[B]

Well, but you know, you don't want to overeat either. You don't want to overeat the snack.

[A]

There is such a thing as too many peanut butter crackers.

[B]

There really is. There really is. So it's kind of this, how I've optimized this is. It's okay. And in a pinch, it's pretty good. And that's. So it's for the pinches, which happened.

[A]

Pretty frequently, I think what you do, it seems to me that what you're doing is you're doing two things. You're doing like naps, which are awesome and we love. And you're doing like the food version of naps, which is have a few sort of peanut butter crackers and you just become a cat. Basically. You live on this weird sort of accelerated time loop.

[B]

The craziest travel I ever did was that one where I blogged about it, about the over travel guide where I went from New York to Virginia to Barcelona to Madrid to Seoul, South Korea, to Paris, back to New York. And when, by the time I got to Seoul, I was so confused. I was like, so confused that it was otherworldly. I wouldn't even call it jet lag anymore. It was like, I feel like. Do you remember that movie called Lost in Translation?

[A]

Oh, totally.

[B]

That's a great movie. But my favorite.

[A]

That's The Park Hyatt in Tokyo. That's a legendary hotel.

[B]

Wow. Well, that's not where I was going. Where I was going was that it had that kind of, like, mood, you know, that kind. Yeah, that's what I remember about that movie.

[A]

The whole movie takes place in the sort of haze of jet lag.

[B]

Haze. It was like the haze of jet lag that it's truly foreign. You really feel like you're in a foreign place when you're there. I mean, partly is. Was that I was actually in South Korea. That was also part of it.

[A]

And how long were you there?

[B]

I was there for like three days. But I was completely wrong schedule wise. So I was awake all night and wanting to nap or napping all day, except for my talks. And I had two. What's the word? Press conferences.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And it was really. It was also otherworldly because the conversations I had with the journalists there were so good. And of course, they were translated, so they were very slow. I would say something, the translator would say it, and they would answer. And then the translator would. And it would take long time to have these conversations. But the questions were so deep. And I really think it's because they think about technology and the sort of. The hostility and sort of threat of technology in a way that we cannot understand because we don't live close to North Korea and we don't live close to China. And the sort of Chinese social credit score is a real thing for them and their surveillance state. It was so fascinating. So I would go from this, like, binge watching Star Trek, the new Star Trek thing on Netflix, straight into a news conference where I was being asked these really incredible questions, really thoughtful. And then as soon as that was over, I'd go straight back to sleep. It was just like a weird existence for like three days.

[A]

And did you eat amazingly well or was this a peanut butter crack? It's had.

[B]

It was the best freaking food I've ever had, I gotta say. Like, that. That hotel I stayed at was probably the nicest hotel I've ever been to.

[A]

Okay, so what made it nice?

[B]

Well, it was sort of like at the top of a hill in the equivalent of like, Central park, but for Seoul. And it was so. It was really isolated, which wasn't great because my. My actual goal, as you might have imagined, was to go to karaoke in, like, Gangnam neighborhood.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, and I was like, oh, it's right close to Gangnam on the map. But it was actually impossible to get to because I. I didn't Trust myself to, like, walk there and back. And I couldn't figure out whether I could take a taxi and pay and stuff like that, so. And I didn't have any friends, so there I am stuck in the hotel. But the hotel was amazing. They had, like, for example, an actual harpist at the breakfast buffet, like a person playing the harp.

[A]

I do think that the one thing that you really get when you do business travel that you don't get at home. And I generally agree that for all the luxury of business travel, like, most of the time you're really better off just staying at home and watching Netflix. But the one thing you get is the most amazing breakfast. You get these huge breakfast and you've eaten breakfast and you're set for the day.

[B]

It was, you know, I had a stomach surgery. So my stomach is the size of a banana. I can't eat very much. The only moment of regret I've had since of my surgery was at the buffet at this place called. It was called the Shilla Hotel. And the food they had. The buffet was like every imaginable Chinese food you've ever had. Thought of all the Korean foods you've ever heard of. And then they had this area which was like French pastries. And it was the best French pastries I've ever had. I went to Paris right after that, and I was like, these pastries suck compared to the ones in Seoul.

[A]

Korean pastry is so good.

[B]

How do they do it? All of the food was insane. So, yeah, I regret my stomach surgery just for that trip, but not really.

[A]

Kathy, Felix, we always love having you on Slate Money.

[B]

I love being here.

[A]

I. I need to ask, now that you have this peripatetic existence, this is something you've chosen for yourself, or is this like a downside of your job?

[B]

It's actually. It fits pretty well with my. I mean, I'm actually writing another book, you know, so I'm. And writing a book, especially in the phase that I just ended, which was like thinking, just literally thinking and doing research and like listening to books on tape and reading books, all that stuff can happen while you travel. There's a lot of space. There's a lot of wasted space, which you'll appreciate. I appreciate that when you're traveling and so it's been actually. And loneliness. And loneliness is good for thinking too. So it's actually been pretty useful to me as a lifestyle. Now, obviously, the downside is that I haven't seen my family as much as I'd like to, so I'm looking Forward to slowing down a little bit, but it has been good.

[A]

I. We are gonna have you back when you have the new book out, obviously, because there's no way we couldn't. And until then, or until the next time the spirit moves you because you know you're always welcome to come on anytime.

[B]

I love the idea of just crashing.

[A]

You should totally just crash. We did that a few weeks ago. We had. Charles Duhigg was in the studio next door and he just crashed in and started being awesome.

[B]

That is amazing.

[A]

So anytime you want to crash. I know that we're in Brooklyn now, so it's unlikely.

[B]

Dude, I came here for months and months.

[A]

You can do it once I can do it. Crash anytime.

[B]

If there's any like any kind of update, sort of timely article or news event surrounding sex robots, then you'll be sure to see me.

[A]

Okay, so we will have the Sex Robot edition with Kathy o' Neill at some point soon. In the meantime, I mean the second.

[B]

One, we already had it once.

[A]

I think we've had at least two or three. So next time Cathy o' Neill will be on Slate Money and talking sex robots. For the meantime, thank you for coming in.

[B]

My pleasure.

[A]

Thank you for sharing your travel tips and telling us that you really don't like the glamour of.

[B]

I never got to my tips, to be honest, Felix, but I'll let that pass.

[A]

Well, so. But your tips are all there on math babe dot org.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Should people. We will have a link in the show notes.

[B]

They're pretty precise too. I mean they're pretty concrete.

[A]

It's all to do with like underwear and stuff.

[B]

No, not at all. Oh my God. Did you read my blog?

[A]

Do I read your blog? Take the pimp on that one.

[B]

I think there was like a. It was two things. It was like how to pack. So there were pretty precise suggestions.

[A]

Did you like Marie Kondo that shit?

[B]

A little bit. A little bit. And then the other part was like how to think. How to not be miserable. Existential.

[A]

How to open yourself up to strangers and spaces.

[B]

Open and connected.

[A]

Open and connected.

[B]

Yeah, I'm all about it. Or at least I'm going through the. I'm still in the phase about open connected. Pretty soon I'll be back to my same old nasty self.

[A]

Just be heads down actually writing the book that's happening. Thank you for coming and thank you for listening. And the email address is still slatemoneylate.com if you want to send us an email and request anything else for this weird and wonderful travel extra series that we are doing. Send us an email. Make the subject line Ambien. Ambien, that's a good one. Or anything thereabouts. If you want to send Kathy some Ambien and get her to try it, Caro Felix, send it to Kathy o' Neill Airport. She'll find it. And yeah, we'll be back next week with more Slate Travel.

[B]

Sam.