Slate Money: Travel (February 19, 2019)

Hosted by Felix Salmon, with guest Cathy O’Neil

Episode Overview

This special “Slate Money: Travel” episode sees host Felix Salmon and recurring guest Cathy O’Neil (mathematician, data scientist, and author) diving into the economics, realities, and existential highs and lows of modern travel—particularly business travel. Through a candid conversation, they explore the unglamorous side of frequent flying, coping mechanisms for jet lag, the quest for sleep, travel optimization, and why even those who could travel in style sometimes have their complaints. It’s a witty, revealing exchange full of practical insights and self-aware humor, perfect for travelers and armchair adventurers alike.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Truth Behind “Jet-Setting Glamour”

• Travel Fatigue and the Downside of Perks

  • Cathy, who’s spent the year flying for speaking gigs, quickly sets the tone: even business class privileges can’t mask the isolating, exhausting side of nonstop travel.
  • "You're here to tell us there's nothing glamorous about it." — Felix [06:26]
  • Cathy skipped the exclusive Davos conference, partly due to poor accommodations:
    "They just did not offer me good accommodations. ... If you're really, really not fancy, they just make you work for free. And that was like my level." [02:37–03:10]
  • She emphasizes the importance of sleep, noting the impracticality of shuttle buses and inconvenient hotel arrangements for someone who needs regular naps. [03:50–04:16]

• The Loneliness of Business Travel

  • Even luxury travel involves loneliness and a feeling of emptiness:
    "No matter how nice the food is, you’re... exhausted, you’re going somewhere where you don’t know anyone, you have no friends, you feel lonely, you’re over full... and you end up just sort of like, why am I not at home with my kids, like yelling at me?" — Cathy [07:41]
  • Felix jokes about preferring the “worst moment of family life” to being plied with endless gin and tonics by a flight attendant. [08:17]

2. Travel Logistics, Preferences, and Sleep Obsession

• Why Sleep is Non-Negotiable

  • Cathy describes how sleep shapes every aspect of her travel, from flights to hotel choices:

    • "For me, it’s all about sleep... I actually consider it torture to be that tired and not be able to lie down..." [14:36]

  • Frequent frustration with hotels not allowing early check-in post-red-eye flights, even when booking extra nights:
    "I guess the more I talk to you, the more I realize how crazy I am about sleep." — Cathy [14:24]

• Travel Class Calculations – Business vs Coach

  • Cathy admits she refuses international gigs if forced to fly coach for overnight flights, but is content with coach for holidays (especially when with family) or domestic, daytime flights. [11:06–12:58]
  • Traveling with loved ones shifts the experience dramatically:
    "Being with somebody you love is like a thousand times better, no matter where you are, than being lonely." — Cathy [12:17]

• The (Unfortunate) Art of Optimization

  • Felix positions himself as an “anti-optimizer,” advocating for building waste and slack into itineraries rather than squeezing every minute for productivity:
    "I think waste is good. Waste of time is good." [24:32]
  • Cathy’s approach is ultra-planned—down to packing the right number of peanut butter crackers for her trips:
    "It's like two packages per day... 12 crackers is a small meal." [25:44–25:52]

3. The Psychology and Economics of Travel (and its Vices)

• Air Travel, Carbon Guilt, and First-World Problems

  • Cathy and Felix debate the carbon footprint of business class vs coach and question how travel habits contribute to environmental impact.
    "I really should be spending way more time feeling ashamed of my... carbon footprint, which is horrible." — Cathy [08:46]
  • Cathy’s only eco-consolation: she doesn’t own a car and lives in NYC. [10:37]

• Alcohol and Sleeping Pills as Coping Mechanisms

  • Alcohol is acknowledged as both a comfort and a cause of travel woes:
    • "The weird thing about alcohol ... on one hand that argument makes a lot of sense, and on the other hand, it would be chaos if there was no alcohol [on planes]." — Cathy [22:21]
    • Felix explains how taste is dulled at altitude and why people crave tomato juice or gin and tonics. [21:45]
  • Ambien (sleeping pills) divides the hosts:
    • Cathy fears using them, worried about their effects; Felix swears by them for eastbound travel jet lag.
    • "Colin Powell once said that there was literally no way he could do his job as Secretary of State if it wasn't for Ambien." — Felix [16:46]

4. Not All Destinations are Created Equal—Food & Hospitality

• Best/Worst Experiences

  • Cathy’s worst experience: hours stranded before hotel check-in, being repeatedly and rudely awakened by hotel staff. [15:27–16:03]
  • The best: the food and hospitality at the Shilla Hotel in Seoul, South Korea, including an “actual harpist at the breakfast buffet” and French pastries superior even to Paris:
    "It was the best freaking food I’ve ever had..." — Cathy [29:35]
  • Regret over not being able to eat more due to stomach surgery:
    "The only moment of regret I’ve had since my surgery was at the buffet at this place..." [30:54]

• Travel as a Catalyst for Existential Reflection

  • Big, round-the-world trips lead to feelings of dislocation—“the haze of jet lag”—akin to the mood of Lost In Translation:
    "By the time I got to Seoul, I was so confused, it was otherworldly. I wouldn’t even call it jet lag anymore..." — Cathy [27:00]
  • Business travel provides time and solitude for deep thinking, helpful when writing a book, but also amplifies loneliness:
    "Loneliness is good for thinking too. So it’s actually been pretty useful to me as a lifestyle." — Cathy [31:52]

5. Practical Tips (and Where to Find More)

• Packing and mindset tips are promised in detail on Cathy’s blog (mathbabe.org):
  • "Your tips are all there on mathbabe.org." — Felix [33:58]
  • Cathy summarizes: how to pack effectively and, more importantly, coping mentally—“How to not be miserable. Existential.” [34:08–34:27]
  • She recommends opening yourself up to strangers and new places to reduce loneliness.

Memorable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• On “Glamour” of Business Travel:
  • "No matter how nice the food is... you're exhausted, you're going somewhere where you don't know anyone, you have no friends, you feel lonely..." — Cathy [07:41]
• On Airplane Food and Drink:
  • "You end up just sort of like, why am I not at home with my kids, yelling at me?" — Cathy [07:54]
  • "Your taste in airplanes is totally different from your taste on land." — Felix [22:16]
• On Ambien and Jet Lag:
  • "Colin Powell once said that there was literally no way he could do his job as Secretary of State if it wasn't for Ambien." — Felix [16:46]
  • "Jet lag is fucking with your sleep. Ambien is just a way of trying to marginally unfuck with your sleep." — Felix [17:16]
• On Packing Snack Supplies:
  • "It's like two packages [of peanut butter crackers] per day...12 crackers is a small meal..." — Cathy [25:44]
• On Cultural Differences and Technology:
  • "The questions [in Seoul] were so deep. And I really think it’s because they think about technology and the...threat of technology in a way that we cannot understand because...the Chinese social credit score is a real thing for them." — Cathy [28:22]

Important Timestamps

• 00:48 — The “over-traveling” theme, Cathy’s business travel fatigue
• 02:37 — Why Cathy skipped Davos (accommodations, status, sleep)
• 06:05 — “Schiphol” pronunciation and travel pain points
• 07:41 — The isolation and trade-offs of glamorous travel
• 14:36 — The desperation for sleep and hotel check-in woes
• 15:27 — Cathy’s worst hotel experience
• 16:32 — The sleeping pills discussion
• 21:45 — Drinking on planes and altered taste buds
• 22:29 — Should alcohol be banned from flights?
• 24:02 — Optimization vs. “waste”: travel philosophy
• 25:44 — Cathy’s peanut butter cracker optimization system
• 27:00 — The “Lost in Translation” effect of extreme jet lag
• 29:35 — The best hotel breakfast ever (in Seoul)
• 31:52 — Travel’s role in deep thinking and book writing
• 33:58 — Where to find Cathy’s practical travel tips (mathbabe.org)

Tone and Style

The episode is informal, witty, and self-deprecating, with Felix’s dry humor and Cathy’s confessional candor. Both bring literary and pop culture references (“Lost In Translation”) and a dose of existential reflection amid practical advice.

For More

Cathy O’Neil’s travel and packing advice, as well as her reflective travel writing, can be found at mathbabe.org. The hosts encourage listener emails and feedback for their travel series.

Summary prepared for: “Slate Money: Travel” (Feb 19, 2019), featuring Felix Salmon and Cathy O’Neil.