Slate Money: Travel: Frequent Flyer

Summary

---

Slate Money: Travel – Frequent Flyer

Podcast: Slate Money
Air Date: March 12, 2019
Host: Felix Salmon
Guest: Katherine Maher, Executive Director of the Wikimedia Foundation

---

Episode Overview

In this special Slate Money: Travel miniseries, Felix Salmon sits down with Katherine Maher, potentially the most-traveled guest in the show's history, to discuss the real-world experience and logistics of global travel. Maher shares practical insights, hacks, and stories from her role overseeing the international Wikimedia Foundation—a job that keeps her in transit for much of the year. The episode dives into frequent flyer strategies, the economics and challenges of air travel, life on the road, and the joys and frustrations of everything from public transport to bikes and scooters.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Global Life of a Traveler

• Katherine Maher’s Travel Stats:
  • “I flew 234,728 miles and visited 14 countries in 48 cities [last year].” (01:44)
  • Spends most of her time flying economy (“Back of the bus, baby.” – 02:06), despite often interacting with high-profile tech and cultural leaders.
• Travel is essential for Wikimedia’s global mission: “Part of what I wanted to do was bring together the global Wikimedia contributor community and actually give them a sense of a coherent global identity... the best way to do that is actually go to the places that they live and work in the context that they’re in.” (02:24)

2. Air Travel: Points, Perks, & Pain

• Airline Loyalty:
  • Loyal to both Lufthansa (Miles & More) and Delta for maximizing options—despite Lufthansa being tough on status. (03:54)
  • “I’m stuck… I have sort of a sunk cost issue going on.” (03:54)
• Upgrades and Lounge Access:
  • Long gone are the days of free upgrades. “Nobody really does upgrades anymore. Delta is actually pretty good at this. That’s why I fly them in the US but not internationally.” (04:49)
  • Lounge access is the best perk—“I get to shower.” (07:00)
• Use of Miles:
  • Maher tends to hoard miles, contemplating a someday splurge on a first-class trip: “Maybe blow them all on some big first class trip sometime somewhere.” (05:41)
  • Anecdote of a traveler exploiting the Munich first-class lounge via repeatedly changing flights. (06:00)

3. Productivity, Sleep, and Survival Strategies

• Getting Work Done:
  • “Flights... are like a little productivity tube. There’s no one pinging you... You just can focus.” (07:21)
  • Avoids in-flight Wi-Fi for productivity; only turns it on for her phone, not laptop. (07:21)
• Coping with Exhaustion:
  • Able to sleep on planes—attributes it to both practice and perpetual exhaustion. “You have to learn.” (08:19)
  • Sleep kit: “I bring my favorite shawl, have the little face mask, and got the neck thing, and I just bundle up and I am out.” (08:04)
• Morning arrivals & jetlag:
  • “Go and show up and look really pitiful in the lobby of a hotel until they tell you to stop sleeping on their bench and check in.” (08:40)
  • Best hack: Go for a run in a new city right after landing to adjust and wait for hotel check-in. (09:03)

4. Hotels and Brand Loyalty

• No major brand loyalty; as a nonprofit, Wikimedia books whatever’s cheapest and closest. (09:25)

5. The Joy (and Burden) of Work Travel

• Perception of Travel:
  • Despite the grind, Maher finds the travel meaningful: “It is transformational to be able to travel the world with people who care about information because they are the best travel guides... I don’t mind the travel. The travel is—it’s a little insane, but it is a perk, and I think it actually is essential.” (09:44–11:20)
• Importance of local experience: Critiques Silicon Valley for designing tech without truly knowing users’ lived context. (11:00)

6. Exploring New Places – Food as a Motivation

• Favorite destinations by cuisine: “Lebanon, Mexico, India... I will eat my way through any of these countries.” (12:36)
• Misses access to Turkish food/airline due to Wikipedia’s ban in Turkey; hopes for future travel to places like the Philippines, Iran, and Uzbekistan. (13:26–15:02)
• Reflection on how travel shrinks cultural differences: “The more you travel… it makes it so obvious how similar we all are.” (15:02)

7. Technology on the Road

• Enjoys slow data (T-Mobile roaming): “It deters you from constantly being on your phone... Let’s just slow down browsing again.” (17:20)
• Jokes about requesting 2G on purpose for mindfulness. (18:02)

8. The Environmental Cost of Frequent Travel

• Maher is environmentally conscious—doesn’t own a car, lives in a studio, is vegetarian—but is acutely aware of her carbon footprint from flying: “It is a matter of existential angst for me.” (20:03)
• Defends economy class as more eco-efficient than business class: “The more people you have on a plane... the more efficient it is.” (20:36)

9. City Transportation: Public Transit, Bikes & Scooters

• Public Transit Aficionado:
  • Loves figuring out and riding public transit worldwide—even in tricky cities/languages (e.g., Kiev’s Cyrillic signage). (22:15–24:01)
  • “Metro systems are really fun… they represent an identity of a country.” (23:01)
• Critique of U.S. infrastructure: Compares SF and NY public transit’s challenges to efficient, dense European systems—“investing in infrastructure is the lifeblood of a country.” (25:41)
• Infrastructure anecdotes: Stories of Lagos floods and how transit issues can paralyze cities. (26:12)
• Bus Lanes over Trams: Argues bus lanes are often a better, more practical investment than new tram systems. (27:32)
• Classism and Buses: “It’s classism to not take a bus... buses are the primary mode of transportation for people with limited mobility [and] lower income.” (28:41)

10. "Last Mile" Transport: Bikes, Dockless Bikes, and Scooters

• Bikes as the Ideal: “Bikes are like my favorite technology.” (31:07)
• Enjoys her own bike but uses docked systems when needed. Intrigued by rebalancing dynamics and ‘Bike Angels’—riders who help optimize city bike locations, drawing an analogy to Wikipedia’s volunteer structure. (31:53–32:34)
• Scooters’ Economic Problems: Short scooter lifespans and high costs make current rental models unsustainable. (29:23–30:08)
• Dockless bike sharing’s woes: Refers to China’s Ofo and Mobike bike-sharing collapses. (30:08)
• Unique forms—Paternoster elevators: Ends with a nod to rare, ultra-efficient German Paternoster lifts: “Bikes are the original cool tech…[but] no one knows how they actually work.” (33:14–34:39)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Back of the bus, baby.” – Katherine on always flying economy (02:06)
• “If you’ve never missed a flight, you spend too much time in airports, right?” – Felix (06:52)
• “The travel is—it’s a little insane, but it is a perk, and I think it actually is essential.” – Katherine (09:44–11:20)
• “Travel on my stomach.” – Katherine, on prioritizing destinations for food (14:03)
• “Public transit is like democracy, you have to use it to keep it.” – Katherine (29:07)
• “Bikes are the original cool tech… The fact that you can actually, like, push a bike straight and it will stay up is baffling from a physics perspective.” – Katherine (33:14)
• [on travel's effect on worldview] “It actually lets that background sort of difference melt away and just connect with the folks that are right in front of you.” (15:02)

---

Suggested Listening Timestamps

• Starting with travel numbers—just how much Maher travels: 01:44
• On airline points, perks, and lounge hacks: 03:54–07:00
• Travel survival skills (sleep, working on planes, post-flight hacks): 07:21–09:12
• Reflections on why travel is essential for global understanding: 09:44–11:20
• Favorite countries for food, travel bans, and missed experiences: 12:36–15:02
• Environmental angst about travel’s carbon footprint: 20:03–21:59
• Infrastructure, public transit, and societal impacts: 22:15–27:32
• Debate on buses, class, and societal divides: 28:30–29:07
• Discussion of last-mile transport: bikes, dockless systems, and scooters: 31:07–34:39

---

Tone and Language

The tone is conversational, wry, insightful, and occasionally self-deprecating. Katherine Maher is candid and practical; Felix Salmon is curious, quick with humor, and enthusiastic about travel minutiae. The episode balances travel hacks and points economics with big-picture reflections on culture, infrastructure, and social good.

---

Bottom Line:
A must-listen for travel geeks, public-transit nerds, and anyone curious about how relentless international travel shapes perspective — and, unexpectedly, for those who want to know about weird German elevators.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, welcome to Slate Money Travel, which is the bonus miniseries for Slate Money. And we are featuring the most traveled person ever in the history of Slate Money Travel, Kathryn Ma. Welcome. You run the Wikimedia Foundation.

[B]

I do.

[A]

Which is a one of the most international organizations in the world. And you are proof that it is international because you spend your entire life on airplanes.

[B]

Yes, I have a very thick passport book.

[A]

At this point, we are going to talk what we are going to do. We are going to have this discussion which we have already had. This is one of those introductions which I record after the conversation. And we are going to start talking about airlines and points and airline miles and then it will segue to hotels. But before long we're going to get super gnarly and micro and we are going to wind up talking about the actual real human scale transportation of running around cities, taking subways in cities, taking buses and then even bikes and then even scooters. And we are going to wind up at a place basically in like 1920s Germany where you might not expect. And if you know what form of transportation we're talking about, you get like a gold star.

[B]

Yeah. Send an email.

[A]

Send an email. You guessed what we were talking about. Otherwise you're gonna have to listen all the way to the end of Slate Money Travel. Catherine Meyer, you're terrified of flying.

[B]

I'm not a fan. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you have your phone in front of you. You're gonna tell me, how many miles did you fly Last year?

[B]

I flew 234,728 miles and visited 14 countries in 48 cities.

[A]

48 cities in 14 countries. You are on the road the whole time?

[B]

Pretty much, yeah.

[A]

And you are spending your life on airplanes, and you are spending your life in like economy class on airplanes.

[B]

Back of the bus, baby.

[A]

Flying the worst flight in the world, which is basically California to Europe on a regular basis.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I mean, you do this because you need to want to. I mean, is this something that your predecessors did as well?

[B]

No, it's something that I instituted because part of what I wanted to do was bring together the global Wikimedia contributor community and actually give them a sense of a coherent global identity. And I wanted to hear from them what was going right and what was going wrong. And so the best way to do that is actually go to the places that they live and work in the context that they're in. Not just in Europe, but all over the world. I've been all over Sub Saharan Africa, all over Latin America. You know, you Name it, I've probably been there.

[A]

One of the parts of being a little bit less developed is that it's much harder to get around by airplane and you wind up flying like the bus anywhere to anywhere in Latin America. You somehow need to change in Miami.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. Or anywhere to anywhere in West Africa. You somehow need to fly through Ethiopia, which is on the other side of the continent. Yeah.

[A]

There are listeners can't see, but you're not a short person and you are tucked up in the back of the plane dealing with jet lag and traveling to a huge range of different countries while also doing things like hanging out with billionaires. So my first question is, why are they not offering you lifts on their jets?

[B]

I don't. Is there a service, Is it like, is there like a Facebook for billionaires where they're all like, hey, I'm going this direction. You want to hop on my jet? Because I'm not on that service. If it exists, there's probably an app. Right.

[A]

You need to be in the right telegram groups.

[B]

Yeah, I'm not in those groups.

[A]

So this is your first mistake. So I have a couple of, like, technical questions. The first one is, do you have any loyalty to particular airlines or airline groups?

[B]

I do. I am. Many, many years ago, I lived in Germany and I signed up for Lufthansa miles and more. And if you are somebody who flies a lot, you know that that is the most punishing mileage program because you really have to earn your status on it. It's like 100,000 miles before you get gold status, which is. Most other airlines don't do that. But now I, I have sort of a sunk cost issue going on where I've got like many, many thousands of miles with hundreds of thousands of miles with them, and I'm. I'm stuck. But so Delta, I really. I'm a fan of Delta domestically. I mean, internationally too. But I'm mostly high. Yeah. So I'm Delta and Lufthansa, which are two different alliances.

[A]

Alliances, yeah.

[B]

I like to maximize my chances.

[A]

But you have lots of genuinely hard earned miles on both programs.

[B]

Yes. I don't get the accelerants of business.

[A]

Class, but that doesn't give you lovely upgrades to business class because you're such a.

[B]

Nobody really does upgrades anymore. Delta is actually pretty good at this. That's why I fly them in the US but not internationally. No, no one really does that. So you kind of have to. You have to actually pay your miles.

[A]

Okay, so do you do that when it's just like, it reaches the point where you're like, I cannot see the inside of another airport. You're like, okay, I'm just going to spend 30,000 miles and get myself a bed for the night.

[B]

I haven't done it in a really long time. I think one time I flew from South Africa to DC for 24 hours and then back to Germany. So on that trip, y. Yes, I did, because that's really long time in a plane. But no, I'm kind of. I'm so used to it now, I just sort of curl up and fall asleep or watch movies, drink some wine.

[A]

So what's the utility of miles then, if not upgrades? What do you do with them?

[B]

I hoard them. I guess I'm a hoarder. I don't know. I want to maybe blow them all on some big first class trip sometime somewhere. I hear Lufthansa has a really amazing first class terminal that is just a totally separate one in their Frankfurt airport. That's like a hotel.

[A]

I know they have one in Munich, which is legendary. And there was this guy, there's this story which I'm 100% convinced is true of this guy who just booked this first class ticket from Munich to somewhere, I don't know, like Dubai or something. And he would go into the first class lounge and have a shower and like eat lots of free food and really, you know, order amazing things and lots of drinks. And then he'd reschedule his ticket for the following day because you can do that because it's fully refundable and he would just go back every day for a month.

[B]

That's, that's a great travel hack. Yeah, I mean, I definitely, when I know that this is terrible, I travel too much. When I know there's going to be a nice lounge like the Virgin Lounge, I will definitely show up early to the airport, whereas normally I'm there like 45 minutes before my flight. I'm like, if you've never missed a flight, you spend too much time in airports, right?

[A]

So, okay, so you get, you get lounge access. This is the.

[B]

It is, it is the perk that is lounge access. I get to shower. Yeah.

[A]

And that's. And so the Virgin Lounge is your Delta Miles. And then Lufthansa has its own.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then the rest of the time you're just kind of in. Do you like, enter a Zen state? You're like, okay, I'm on a plane again. Or do you consider that to be actually time that you can productively do Something recharge time.

[B]

I work very well on daytime flights. Like, that's, you know, flights back from Europe, flights across the U.S. it's like a little productivity tube. There's no one pinging you. There's no meetings. You just can focus. And I don't even use the wi fi. Like, I know WI fi was this big revelation. I'll turn it on on my phones, but I won't turn it on on my computer because it's so bad that it just becomes a distraction because you're like, I can't load this thing. I can't load this thing. So instead, I've turned every offline, sort of remot access thing on. I get on a plane and I just power through and work on the plane. But then obviously, I don't do that on red eyes. That's.

[A]

And can you sleep on plane if you work that one out? The whole, like.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

What's your stance on Ambien?

[B]

I don't take it.

[A]

You can just sleep anyway.

[B]

I have a whole. I like, bring my favorite, you know, like, shawl, and I have, like, the little face mask, and I've got the neck thing, and I just bundle up and I am out.

[A]

Nice. That's okay. Well, that explains a lot. Or maybe it's just something you have to learn how to.

[B]

You have to learn. You totally have to learn.

[A]

You do.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And you're just exhausted.

[B]

That's what whiskey helps.

[A]

And you're traveling so much that you're always exhausted. So you will take any opportunity to nap.

[B]

More or less, yeah. It's actually quite restorative.

[A]

Have you solved the problem of traveling east and landing in the morning and not having anywhere to have a nap or check in?

[B]

No. This is a real issue if I'm flying into a city where I've got friends. Hi, I'm here to use your shower. Otherwise, go and show up and look really pitiful in the lobby of a hotel until they tell you to stop sleeping on their bench and check in.

[A]

There's your travel hack.

[B]

That's my travel hack. Actually, the travel hack for me is every time I get off a plane, I try to go exercise. Exposure to sunlight gets your blood flowing, oxygen levels, and so go for a run in a new city, see the sights, get to know the landscape, and by the time you get back, usually your hotel room's ready.

[A]

That's a good hack. I like that hack.

[B]

Well, I also don't like you sitting around being all sweaty on the. The benches.

[A]

Do you have any brand Loyalty when it comes to hotels. No, you'll just pick any of those.

[B]

Whatever's convenient. Yeah. I mean, we're a nonprofit, so we book, for the most part, whatever's cheapest, which is also why I have two airline alliances. So whatever's cheapest, whatever's closest, whatever's available.

[A]

How do you view all of the travel in terms of. Is this a reason why your job is amazing, or is it a reason why your job is terrible?

[B]

I think it's a reason why my job is amazing. I have the chance to go spend time with people doing incredible work in the countries that they're doing it in. It's not the same thing as bringing everyone together in a conference room and asking them, like, why do you edit Wikipedia? Or what knowledge issues are important in your country? I was down in Latin America or South America last year, and I was in Uruguay, in Argentina and Chile, and had the chance to spend time visiting some of the most incredible museums, meeting with knowledge professionals, the, you know, heads of digitization at the Chilean National Library, going into the Museum of Memory in Chile, which is the museum of the military dictatorship, doing similar activities in Argentina, going to see the largest photo archive in Uruguay. It is transformational to be able to travel the world with people who care about information because they are the best travel guides. They take you to the most interesting places. You get to hear and learn stories about things that you would never otherwise get to access, and then you get to bring it all back and actually try to synthesize it and share it in a way that is hopefully brings all these disparate pieces together and creates a. A broader picture of the whole. So I absolutely. I don't mind the travel. The travel is. It's a little insane, but. But it. It is a perk, and I think it actually is essential. Otherwise, it's. You know, this is. The issue with Silicon Valley in general is if you're building everything from the perspective of what does it look like to be in Palo Alto and you're not actually spending time with the way that people use things in the world, the needs that they have, the. The way that circumstances are different, the way that products are different, the way that people are different, then I don't think that you're actually building interesting things for the world.

[A]

Absolutely. I remember writing in the Wired. I believe it was in the Wired article where I said, you should take over Facebook, mentioning that Mark Zuckerberg had never once set foot in the Philippines, even though he is kind of the most important person in the Philippines.

[B]

That's a really interesting point. I've actually never set foot in the Philippines, although I'd like to.

[A]

The Philippines is not on your list of however many countries you've visited.

[B]

It has not been yet, but emphasis on yet.

[A]

It's a. It's a very important country.

[B]

No, it absolutely is. So I think that we're very interested in. In thinking about how these massive countries in Asia that are not China. Right. That nobody is really talking about, whether it's Philippines or Indonesia. I mean, unless you're talking about in a really negative way, right? Like an out content farm, outsourcing for moderation. You know, Philippines, Indonesia. I think that these are. These are places in which Wikipedia is incredibly popular and well used. And so my not having gone there is actually a black mark on me. Like, it's something that needs to be rectified.

[A]

Maybe 2019, at some point you have enough space left. 2019 will be the year of going to the Philippines. What's the top countries that you always look forward to going to just for the food?

[B]

Lebanon, Mexico, India. I will eat my way through any of these countries. Um, and I do. Although, you know, I'll admit, like, I spend a lot of time in Germany and I'm a very big fan of the little sandwiches you can get on the subway platform, which is like such a weird thing.

[A]

Very brown bread. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I kind of enjoy it. But no, in. No question, eating in. In Lebanon is a life experience that everyone should have the chance to do once. I miss Turkey. Also. Turkish food. So good.

[A]

So that. Will the Turks even, like, let you in?

[B]

We've decided it's probably not wise for me to try. So I don't get to fly Turkish Air anymore, which is sad. Oh, no.

[A]

Turkish Airlines flies everywhere.

[B]

I know. And they're fabulous.

[A]

They're a really good airline.

[B]

It's a really good airline. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. But you're not even flying Turkish Airlines.

[B]

I'm not? Yeah. Damn. At the moment. Because we're blocked in Turkey. Because I didn't make that explicit. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. For those of you who didn't listen to the Slate Money episode with Catherine, there are two countries in the world the Wikipedia is blocked in. One of them is Turkey. The other one is China. Does that mean you don't travel to China either?

[B]

I haven't yet, but I don't suspect that that would be a similar issue. I think. But my suspicion is that if I were going for either tourism or for business purposes, that I would probably hopefully get a visa. I'm Going to try to. I'm actually going to test this later this year.

[A]

Oh, good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you've been to Taiwan.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

That's also meant to be amazing food.

[B]

Yeah, I have heard that. Yeah. See, I mean, I travel on my stomach. Right.

[A]

100% agree.

[B]

Really? Now I'm feeling guilty about all. I'm so sorry. Every other country I haven't listed. I love your.

[A]

You can always find something good. But you're right about. I mean. Yeah. For someone who travels on their stomach, not being able to go to Istanbul is definitely. It's a major lacuna. There will be a time when you can go back. It's not going to be Erdogan all the way.

[B]

No, I mean, I feel this way. Absolutely. I remain optimistic that any country that is currently off limits hopefully will be a country that is open soon. I'm a very big believer in freedom of movement. And actually, the country I really want to go to is we have a really active Wikimedia community in Iran.

[A]

And you haven't been there either?

[B]

No, not yet. I'm gonna love it. Have you been?

[A]

I have not been, but everyone I know who's been has been absolutely blown away by it and also the food.

[B]

So my undergraduate degree was in Middle Eastern and Islamic studies. And so just the chance to go to Isfahan and see the architecture would be beyond exciting for me. So. Yes, do it, do it. I would love to. And actually, Uzbekistan, I think, is another one that would be really cool to go visit. For the architecture, definitely. Probably for the people, too. That's the thing about travel, is the more you travel, the more actual similar. It actually, it makes it so obvious how similar we all are. Right. And to some extent, I remember very much when I first started traveling how the sensory impressions of the first foreign city you visit are so overwhelming. Right. You remember the shape of. In my case, it was Paris. Like, I remember the shape of the cobblestones. I remember the smell of the Galoise. Like, I remember so distinctly every part about that experience. Like the fact that the pharmacies have this green cross. You know, the whole thing. And now I travel around the world and instead of seeing the things, I actually mostly see the people. It is because everything is so foreign in a similar way that it's. It's. It actually lets you. Lets that background sort of difference melt away and just connect with the folks that are right in front of you. Does that make any sense?

[A]

It does make sense, especially when you're doing this thing that you do, which is you're basically traveling on your own and you wind up landing in this foreign country and being forced to interact with a whole bunch of locals because you don't have a travel companion who you just revert to.

[B]

Yeah, I actually prefer it. I prefer traveling on my own. I prefer flying on my own. I don't put my headphones in as I go around the city or the day. I really just like sitting. And I like the fact that my wifi doesn't or my mobile network roaming slows down because I don't sit there on my phone while I'm on a train. I actually sit there and I look at people and I watch. I mean, not like in a creepy way, just like I'm constantly aware of what's going on. And I don't think we do that when we're sitting there with our LTE service. It's nice. It's a nice way to deepen.

[A]

I can definitely. What's the word?

[B]

Relate.

[A]

I can relate to both the wonders of T mobile, free international roaming, and also how slow it is.

[B]

It's very slow.

[A]

It's very slow. But it's. I mean, it's. I mean, it's the best deal in the world. It costs literally $0 and they give it to everyone for free.

[B]

Yeah. And it's totally sufficient for checking email and staying in touch for emergenc and things like that. But it deters you from constantly being on your phone, like, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. And I actually think there's all this. These hacks around mindfulness now where you're told to grayscale your phone and plug it in in another room. I'm like, let's just slow down browsing again.

[A]

Just bring it slow. Bring it back to 2G.

[B]

Just throttle it right down. And we will all. So it's like none of us texted as much as we did when we had T9 because it was such a pain, like, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. Yeah. So that's not exactly a travel hack, but it does seem like it might be a good life.

[A]

One, phone up your cell phone provider and ask them for much slower service.

[B]

I would like 2G, please.

[A]

Great. I think we will do this. We will move around the world, constantly meeting new people, doing it on our own, putting ourselves into strange situations and getting delicious food. I think this is the best future.

[B]

It's the best future. It's really the best.

[A]

And then somehow you. You have a place in San Francisco which you kind of occasionally see when you're lucky.

[B]

Yeah. Luckily My brother lives down the hall, so he keeps an eye on it. But it's a very modest place. There's no need really for it to be anything more than that.

[A]

Well, thank you for coming in. Thank you for being almost certainly the most traveled person we all have on Slate Money Travel.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

You're doing like, what, 150 days a year or something crazy like that?

[B]

It was more like 200 last year. Yeah. So on this trip, I was in New York, Chicago, London, Oxford, Brussels, D.C. and now I'm here. I just got in from D.C. last night.

[A]

Too many planes.

[B]

It's actually a really terrible TripIt now for the entire year thus far. TripIt just thinks I'm on one, which is the app that I use. It literally thinks that I'm on one long trip. It doesn't actually acknowledge San Francisco as a home base. It's just like, oh, she's in San Francisco.

[A]

Which is actually better than the other thing that happens on Drip it, where they're like, where you're at. You're in one city and you get a notification from the TripIt saying you should prepare for your trip from like the third city you're going to be going to to the fourth city you're going.

[B]

They send it out like a week in advance. And I'm like, I haven't even bought my tickets yet. Yeah, it's bad. It's really bad. I feel like I'm curious if folks who listen to this can actually relate to this or if this just sounds absolutely miserable to most people.

[A]

I mean, it would certainly sound absolutely miserable to Cathy o'. Neill.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who's like, I won't even travel anywhere on business unless I'm in business.

[B]

You know, I respect that. If she can command that sort of authority, like, by all means, command that authority. Although I do think the calculation on environmental footprint is wrong.

[A]

I mean. Okay, so first question is, how much do you care about your environmental footprint?

[B]

I care very much. Yeah, it's.

[A]

It is enormous.

[B]

I. I don't own a car. I live in a studio apartment. I am a vegetarian. I am like the, you know, in many. I don't have children. I think in many ways I have one of the most minimal. I live in California, which is the most energy efficient state because we don't really have heating or air conditioning, at least in NorCal. And so in some ways I have this incredibly small environmental footprint, except I live on a plane. And it is a matter of existential angst for me.

[A]

But do you feel a little bit More environmentally virtuous for flying an economy. Claire.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I don't. Like. Not as a choice, but there's no question. Right. Just in terms of measurement of volume, the more people you have on a plane, there's the weight calculation, of course, but other than that, the more efficient it is, the more people that you can sort of put in that space. Which is why you always see those horrific proposals for the standing seats. Have you seen these? I've seen these, yeah.

[A]

It's going to be on Ryanair any minute.

[B]

Is because it is more efficient from a fuel economy standpoint. And so whatever's more efficient from a fuel economy standpoint ends up translating into being probably better off for the environment because you're actually able to move more mass at lower cost. Right. Or lower sort of carbon expenditure. And so there's no question these. You know, business class is definitely a little more problematic. I think it's something like eight. You could fit eight people or something like that in a business class seat.

[A]

I don't think you could fit eight people.

[B]

I mean, literally, I wouldn't want to be in a business class seat with eight other people. But just in terms. Maybe it's. Maybe it's like the weight calculation.

[A]

I feel like you could do four, two. No. Maybe three.

[B]

No. Because think about how long they are. So you could easily get, like, two or three rows in there. In spirit. Air. You could.

[A]

I'm gonna have to start consulting floor plans. I think that's the way you do it. Right. It's just like the number of square feet of fuselage that you take up.

[B]

Yeah, probably. Because I imagine, like, those seats are not more heavy than people.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, the seats are heavier, but I don't. I mean, that's a. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know, man. It looks nice up there, but at least.

[A]

Yeah, at least. At least you live in an apartment building, so. But I have a little bit of virtue that way.

[B]

I try. I take public transit. I'm a real big fan of public transit and public infrastructure.

[A]

Okay, well, that's a final question for you, is how much effort do you put into trying to understand and navigate strange public transportation systems in cities that you've never been to? Because the learning curve is always so steep on those things.

[B]

I actually love taking public transit. So when I'm in Mexico, I love riding the metro there. You know, the first time, I was. The only time, actually, I was in Kiev in Ukraine. It was such an adventure because at the time, none of the signs were in Latin. And I. So I knew, you know, I knew the names of the places I had to go, like, in an auditory sense, but I had no idea what they meant in Cyrillic, and I couldn't. So I'm like, I had no idea how to get where I was going. So that was an adventure. And this is all pre. IPhone, pre maps, all of that. I had written navigation. I get such a kick out of it. I'm a big transit nut nerd. I just think that Metro systems are really fun. It's kind of like national carriers. Right. Like, they represent to some extent an identity of a country. Right. It's like the Moscow underground is amazing. Yeah, exactly. Is famously beautiful and decorative. I actually. I think poor New York has a terrible reputation right now for its public transit, But I love it. I think it is, like, it is exactly New York. It works just as much as it works and no more and no less. Right, exactly. So for me, yeah, I ride public transit whenever it's available. Like the. You know, I can't go to Turkey anymore, but the Istanbul overground trams, I think, are really cool. Coming from the airport. Like, it's. There's no better way to see a city. There's no better way to see people. When I was in Delhi, I was hanging out with Wikipedians from Delhi and I made them take me on the Delhi subway. I was so excited to ride it.

[A]

I've never taken the Delhi subway.

[B]

Oh, it's really nice. It's brand new. It's super nice. It actually has really intense security protocol, so you have to have your bag screened before you can go in, like, an airport, because they're concerned about terrorism. But, yeah, it's. It's. It's really nicely done. Right. It's like the Cairo subway is also. It was built by the French many years ago, and it has, like, these weird rubber tracks and trains. Like, no public trans. Yeah, I love it. It's such a dark.

[A]

Oh, it's awesome. I think. No, I think you're absolutely right. Put as much effort as you need to into getting those subway tickets and navigating the systems, and it's. You're absolutely right. There's very few of them where you're like, this is just horrible.

[B]

Yeah, I'd be hard pressed to think of one that wasn't in some way, a learning experience. Yeah, it's fun.

[A]

And most of the time it's just like, why can't we have this back home?

[B]

Yeah. So San Francisco drives me crazy because it has some of the worst urban municipal infrastructure I Happen to live right near one of the overground tram lines. But in general to get across the city there's no cross city transit other than the buses. And the buses are okay as long as you're not trying to switch them. But for me there is no question that the ability to get off a train and be in the center of a city and make that commute from sort of a suburban area into an urban area is part of the reason why people tend to like European cities so much. Right. Because they're so well networked and so dense and so sort of well connected. And then I come back to the States and you know, my, my folks live about 40 miles outside of Manhattan and it takes me like three hours to get there on public transit. And actually public transit in this, in the tri state area is of the best in the country.

[A]

Yeah, that counts as good.

[B]

It counts as good. And so no hate to Metro North. Love it. But at the same time I really do. I rode up on a cello last night and I'm thinking this should be an hour long trip. So yes, I know it's expensive, but as it turns out, investing in infrastructure is the lifeblood of a country. It's kind of like investing in education. You do those two things and it's really incredible what happens to the economy and what happens to sort of, you know, flourishing.

[A]

Can you imagine what like Hong Kong would be like if it didn't have that amazing ecosystem? It just wouldn't work.

[B]

It wouldn't work. And you see that. I mean some of the challenges that you see when you travel to these megalopolises is some of the biggest problems that they have are transportation and infrastructure. So my very first time in Lagos, it flooded while I was in a car leaving the airport. And Lagos has really unfortunately underinvested in infrastructure. And so the entire highway flooded and we had to get out of the car and push the car off, off of the overp because the water had risen to sort of like into the car. But my sort of memory of that was just the density of the traffic. And it's an infrastructure problem.

[A]

I've heard that this is the main. I've never visited Bangladesh, nor have I. It's not really on the top like tourist destinations. But yeah, it can take hours apparently to get to and from the airport.

[B]

This is why I love these high speed buses. So Buenos Aires installed this incredible bus network system with the dedicated bus terminals that feel like you're getting on the subway, but it's actually, actually getting on a bus. I just think those sort of high capacity bus lanes, when done well, I know, I know Manhattan has them, but.

[A]

We have like two and they don't work very well.

[B]

Yeah, the M15 Express I used to, I used to take is better than what it used to be. But yeah, there's infrastructure I could go on. So you thought we were going to talk all about planes like fancy people and instead we're talking about, we're going.

[A]

To talk about bus lane, bus lames. Amazing. If you do the cost benefit. A lot of towns, like small cities, large towns, really love the idea of tram systems. And if you work out, if you do the math on tram systems, it is always and everywhere better to just do bus lanes.

[B]

Yeah, no, obviously most places can't invest in subways, although those are clearly the best. But yeah, bus lanes are. If you actually start thinking about some of the challenges that we have relative to carbon consumption, increased density and increased density being otherwise a really positive thing, like personal car ownership is just a huge problem. And then you have all these Silicon Valley companies reinventing buses. They're like, we have an idea. What if you took a private ride sharing service and took it with six of six other people in your community and neighborhood on a pre planned route to get to work? And I'm like a public bus.

[A]

Buses have such a weird, like people will refuse to take a bus.

[B]

Even.

[A]

When they're perfectly happy taking like a slower tram.

[B]

It's classism.

[A]

Or subway.

[B]

It's classism because buses are accessible to everyone. Buses are the primary mode of transportation for people with limited mobility. It is the primary mode of transportation for people, lower income people. To my mind it's complete classism to not take a bus.

[A]

I agree. So go take buses people. You would be surprised how, how effective they can be.

[B]

Public transit is like democracy, you have to use it to keep it.

[A]

Thank you. I will remind myself of that. Right now all I ever take is city bikes, but you know.

[B]

Yeah, but those are good too. What do you think of the scooters? Is the scooter plague, has it hit New York?

[A]

The scooter plague has not hit New York, but also I'm just deeply suspicious of scooters. Alison Griswold, who used to be here at Slate but is now at Quartz, has been doing some great work on scooter economics and they just don't work.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

It turns out you rent these scooters out for, you know, a bucket shot. Plus it works out to like maybe two or three dollars per ride. They last on average, 28 days. Because these are not. They're made, as you know, in. For individual use, not for high industrial. Industrial, like people using them over and over again. They, you. They rent them out like on average maybe four or five times a day, and then they die. And the amount of revenue they generate over the course of their lives is a fraction of the cost of the scooter.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So even without all of. Even before you get to the overhead and stuff, they just. It's just like the two big Chinese ones both imploded. It was Ofo and Mobike. No, those were the bike ones.

[B]

Yeah, I read about the implosion of the bike ones. People were just discarding the bikes.

[A]

Yeah, but the. Yeah. Dockless bikes, I think in principle can work, but the scooters, I just don't see how they work.

[B]

There's an interesting lawsuit proceeding in San Diego right now because people ride them all over the city and it's creating issues with regards to ADA protections because people ride them on the sidewalks.

[A]

Right. And they leave them where the wheelchairs need to be able to go get in the way.

[B]

And so there's a suit against the city about what does the city need to do in order to make. Protect against accessibility issues. But I don't know. I mean, I'm like pro scooter in the sense. I'm pro anything that gets people to not take a taxi five blocks. But at the same time, they are a bit of a health hazard.

[A]

What's your last mile transportation solution of choice? What's the best one?

[B]

Oh, I love bikes. Bikes are like my favorite technology.

[A]

Dockless?

[B]

No, I have my own bike. Oh, the dockless. Oh, dockless. No. Did you see the bike covered in barnacles? The city bike.

[A]

Oh, that was amazing.

[B]

The stories that bike had to tell.

[A]

That was like Pirates of the Caribbean.

[B]

Docked it. Yeah. No, for me, I have my own bike. I love riding my own bike. But if I. There's a dock right outside my house, so if I need to. I'll it take. Take a docked bike. Yeah.

[A]

If you're not coming back.

[B]

Well, point to point. Right. Which makes sense. I think that the dockless ones, I'm kind of curious. It's kind of like car two. Go. I don't actually, I'm curious about the economics of how they track them down and reallocate them to locations, because I know that's a big issue with the docked bikes too, is the commute, the rush, the reallocation.

[A]

Yeah. The rebalancing.

[B]

Right. And did you Read about the incentive hacks around rebalancing.

[A]

Oh, did you know what the Bike Angels are?

[B]

Yes, the Bike Angels.

[A]

Bike Angels are amazing.

[B]

So these are the people who ride the bikes from point to point, from dock to dock, in order to get points. Get points. And to me, I read that about that and I went, oh, it's Wikipedia. It's all the same people who maintain Wikipedia in terms of looking for grammatical errors or vandalism edits or what have you. It's the exact same sort of incentive structure. It's like microtasking, that people have some sort of affiliated emotion around some sort of intrinsic thing where they actually appreciate what the product is. And then it has a reward system that just like, hits that dopamine.

[A]

I am a Bike Angel.

[B]

You are?

[A]

I am.

[B]

No kidding. What makes you do it?

[A]

Well, the main thing is it is free to sign up. And so I just basically bike around doing what I do anyway. I don't, mostly don't go out of my way to rebalance and get. But every so often, just in terms of, like, the way I live my life, they will give me points. And I can't remember ever doing anything with my points. But it's still. I'm like, I'm all into gamification of everything.

[B]

So everyone should be a bike ang.

[A]

I think everyone should be a Bike Angel. But definitely, you know, I know people who never pay for their Citibike membership because they are earning enough points every month to just keep on rolling.

[B]

You actually know people who do that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not just that those exist. Wow, that's really cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So bikes. Bikes are the original cool tech. And the thing that I love about bikes is no one knows how they actually work now. I don't mean like, yes, they've got a crank and all that, but the fact that you can actually, like, push a bike straight and it will stay up is baffling from a physics perspective.

[A]

You just blew my mind.

[B]

I know. Bikes are crazy.

[A]

They are the most efficient form of transportation just in terms of the amount of energy expended to get like 1 kg, 1 meter. It's more efficient than walking. It's way more efficient than anything with an engine. It's amazing. I think the only other one which comes close is elevator.

[B]

That's interesting. So I'd be curious, you know, they used to have the elevators that were not the stop starts. They were the.

[A]

We just go around in a circle. You step on and step off.

[B]

What's the name for them? They.

[A]

Have you been watching Babylon Berlin on Netflix.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, they have those on that. Yeah, they're only very popular in the 30s in Germany.

[B]

Yeah, so I've ridden one in Germany because that's like the only place they still exist and I think they've mostly been taken out of commission because they're so dangerous. A predator. That's what they're called. Paternoster. And they are crazy. But I'm curious if those are even more efficient than the stop starts.

[A]

Almost certainly, yeah. Yeah. Apparently it just goes around the circle, around and around. It's all counterweighted. So the marginal energy cost of going on and stepping off is tiny.

[B]

Nothing. See, look. We have gone from planes to trains to automobiles to bikes to Paternoster. Paternoster.

[A]

Go back to the Paternas scale and we will solve everything. Thank you very much, Catherine Merck. I believe I should say check out your website. People are going to do that anyway.

[B]

Never hurts.