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Succession: “Snake Linguini”
00:43:39
A spoiler-filled discussion of Succession, Season 3, Episode 2
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- [00:00]
A
Guys, this is Succession. This is hbo. If you don't want to hear me talking about Logan Roy talking about, then don't listen to this. There are bad language words in this show. Hello and welcome to the Snake Linguini episode of Snake, Slate Money Succession. We are up to episode two of season three. I am Felix Salmon of Axios. I'm here with Emily Peck of Fundrise.
- [00:37]
B
Hello.
- [00:37]
C
Hello.
- [00:39]
A
And very excitingly, we are here with Kurt Anderson. Welcome back, Kurt.
- [00:46]
B
Couldn't be happier to be back.
- [00:47]
A
Who are you and why? How are you qualified to Kurt Opine on all of this?
- [00:53]
B
Oh, that's a deep Kurt Anderson.
- [00:55]
A
You are the Kurt Anderson.
- [00:57]
C
Kurt fucking Anderson.
- [00:58]
B
You know, how am I? I've written novels, some of which are about rich media moguls. I've worked for rich media moguls. I'm old, so I've seen empires come and go.
- [01:12]
A
You are basically the number one, most best person we can have on this show. We are going to talk about Jerry's Snake, Linguini and all manner of family dysfunction, all coming up on Slate Money Succession. Kurt, welcome. Great to have you talking about media moguls, which is a subject you know a lot about. Let me just come out and ask you, like, in terms of dysfunctional media families, where would you rate this on a scale of like, one to verisimilitudinous?
- [01:45]
B
As high as the verisimilitudinous has ever been. And beyond media mogul families, I. The thing I've been amazed about and impressed by from the beginning of this series is how it gets rich people in general so. Well, forget moguls, forget media people, but rich people. I've never seen it done better, frankly, in television or film, but it does the business really well. And I. Back when I started deciding I wanted to be a novelist and I wrote my first novel, a lot of it was set in the world of media moguls and business. Business and stuff. And. And at that time it was like, well, this hasn't really been done well in fiction. Let me try to do it well. And it's still rarely done well, but, man, this just knocks it out of the park forever. And. And a friend of mine who was also a big Succession fan said he had seen the, you know, trailers and said, oh, gosh, there's so much. It's all these around the world shoots and it's. I. I'm worried it's not going to be as good. Well, based on. Based on the first couple episodes. I certainly have not been disappointed by what I see you know, and we all know people who are in destructive, dysfunctional families with powerful patriarchs, whether they're media moguls or not. But I feel like these people are convincingly damaged and dysfunctional.
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A
Is this normal for rich families?
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B
Well, I can't speak about all rich families, but I mean, it's not uncommon. I know the ones I have any firsthand knowledge of. This is kind of a lot the way it is.
- [03:21]
A
So, Kurt, let's talk about this episode. Because at the heart of this episode is a glorious scene where we get all four children together in a tiny little room and it becomes very clear that if they can only coordinate and get their act together and work in concert with each other, then that would be pretty much like the optimal outcome for all of them. And yet their general fucked upness and internal mistrust and dynamics makes that completely impossible.
- [03:55]
B
That's right. You know, it's the prisoner's dilemma kind of thing with four of them instead of two. And I mean, and there's just beyond their fucked up edness, there is the general prisoner's dilemma. I just want to do well for myself. Fuck my brothers and sisters or my father, anybody else. Which is not unique to rich people or media moguls children. But yeah, it's beautifully done and again, beautifully written. I'm not going to stop raving because especially television writing and film writing, but is so often rushed to get to the point. Get to the point. Don't spend time meandering around and in the scenes with, with the siblings, the Roy siblings figuring out that, you know, are they going to work together, what's going to go on here? It, it isn't, it's, you know, it doesn't obey any kind of screenwriting rules. It, it meanders in this beautiful, incredibly, convincingly naturalistic way. But yes, their, their weaknesses and their fucked upness is so beautifully apparent. And you know, and, and I came away from that and other scenes thinking like, sort of identifying in fact with the father and thinking like, yeah, I wouldn't give any of these little pip squeaks control of my company. You know, I don't want any of them to run it, you know, but. Which was beautifully done.
- [05:19]
A
Which, which is also what Jerry says, right when, when Roman asked for advice, he's like, if we, if we manage to defenestrate Logan, like, which one of us would take over? And she's like, you got to be joking, right? None of you is going to take over.
- [05:31]
B
Well, that and also I was just thinking about it. So Jerry, I Mean, making Jerry the temporary CEO, of course, has the. Is. Is the brilliant move for the dad to do because it. It maximizes the chances that the other three are going to stick by his side because they could still work, you know, they could still win, you know, any of them. So it was, you know, in addition to the fact that they're all, with the possible exception of Shiv, in my view, weak people who. You wouldn't want to run your giant, multi gazillion dollar company, just doing this temporary thing of not giving it to any of them is obviously the move to do if you're. If you're him.
- [06:13]
C
That was what was clear to me from the episode that the siblings are all trapped in their sibling dynamic and they're all competing for Logan's love and the role of his successor. And the fact that he keeps them that way, he keeps them dancing for him. They can't overcome it. They would never, ever be able to team up. It's impossible because Logan has built them that way. That is the dynamic, and they cannot get out of it. And it just becomes clear as these. These fights continue and they're insulting each other. Shiv says something really terrible to Roman, and he walks out of the room. And then they kind of diminish Connor, and he. I don't know, he walks out of the room and. And it's still maybe gonna go that they're gonna team up. And then, of course, the donuts arrive, and the donuts close the deal.
- [07:00]
A
I do think that there's this wonderful little grace note in this episode where Logan, who is definitely at the bottom of his arc right now, he is very weak. He is very desperate. He's reaching out to anyone and everyone he can for any kind of support. And this is very visible to anyone, and it's obviously most visible to Marcia. But he phones up Connor, and in a very kind of transparent and needy way, he's like, you're number one, kiddo. And it's pathetic and it's weak, and Connor knows that it's pathetic and it's weak. But even though the. Even though he knows it's pathetic and weak, he can't help but, like, feel validated.
- [07:48]
C
It works. It still works.
- [07:49]
A
It works.
- [07:50]
C
The need for your father's love is so powerful, even when you see the manipulation happening, you still are so desperate for it. You'll take it anyway.
- [07:59]
B
Well, you'll take just making the effort, the pathetic, unconvincing effort as something.
- [08:06]
C
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that was amazing. You're my number one. Because we all remember, of course, when he hugged Kendall back in season one and he said, you're my number one boy. Right?
- [08:16]
B
Yeah.
- [08:16]
C
Like, no, no.
- [08:17]
B
And the other thing again, I mean, as we see so much of these four children in this episode, that they are. They are such distinct characters. I mean, they're so, so, so distinct characters and so. But none of them obvious or familiar stereotypes, you know?
- [08:37]
C
Yeah. They're truly unique and original people. Well drawn.
- [08:41]
A
Yeah. And the writing. We need to talk about the writing in this. In this episode, because, I mean, obviously, Kurt, you brought it up, but this was, I think, Emily, you said something to me a couple days ago how this felt like a play. A lot of the writing in this episode, there was a lot of sort of exposition to get through. This wasn't like the most dramatic episode. A lot of it falls on the quality of the writing. And the writing was excellent, but also understated. Like, a lot of the punchlines, the funny things that you come to succession for. Like when Kendall goes to Greg and.
- [09:24]
D
Says, you okay, dude? Yeah. You wondering if you tagged your dick to a runaway train here?
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A
Or like when Roman says, stretch, it's.
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B
A fucking scrotum over timpani drum.
- [09:37]
A
Those are great lines, which if they appeared in something like Veep or In the Loop, would be like, boom. Punch lines which you'd laugh at, but in this show, you barely notice them. Like, sometimes you need to, like, watch it a second time to even realize that they're there.
- [09:52]
B
Yeah. Well, it's why I love this show so much, because it is a drama. It is not a comedy. But its creator, Jesse Armstrong, is a guy who's most of whose previous writing career was in television comedy. So it's. It's bringing that sensibility to this dark, serious thing that is not trying to do even the dark comedy of. Of Aviv. It's a serious show in which Roman, because they were brilliant to create him, is the fun, is the actual joke telling character. Nobody else tells jokes, really. Again, like much of my favorite literature, film, everything, it is not comic. It is not a comedy.
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A
But.
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B
But it has that effect again and again and again. So I. I would.
- [10:35]
A
I would say it is a comedy. I. I think.
- [10:37]
B
I know, I know people say that, and when I researched it, I saw that people call it a comedy, but I would think, I mean, it's so not like a, you know, it's not a half hour comedy, as we've come to know, comedy on tv. It's not, you know. You know, yes, it is. It is comic, but as, as serious as a heart attack, as they say.
- [10:59]
A
But it's comic in the way that, like, you know, the death of Stalin, the Iannucci film was comic, you know.
- [11:05]
B
Well, except that had no. That was, I would say, more broadly comic. I mean, there is a, as I say, there's a character in Roman who tells jokes and there's. And Greg is a funny, God knows character, and that's what a hard character to play. That kid. That guy does a great job with that very difficult role. But other than, you know, nobody tells jokes as as opposed to the death on which, you know, there were, there were jokes, you know, but it's extraordinary. The other thing about this being like a play and being low key and all that, that you said it also doesn't have, as I think practically every previous episode has any big party or any big event as a sort of set piece. You know, that's one of the things that this show does. And it's always magnificent. Everything. But no, it's. It's in a room or in a few rooms, just like stage play.
- [11:57]
C
Yeah, it felt like there were just a few sets. Greg was there for our comedy relief. Greg's pursuit of a lawyer for himself was kind of like the light hearted bit of the play. And then we returned to the siblings in the room, kind of like hashing it out. And it felt like the point of the episode was kind of like to just settle out the alliances. Who is gonna be on whose side.
- [12:18]
A
Or to raise the question? Because there is, like, right now, there are no alliances. Right now. Everything, all the balls are in the air. And with, with the exception of, you can be pretty sure, I think at this point that Jerry is team Logan. But, like, beyond that, I, I can't. And even that one's, you know, there's a small question mark. Like, if you think of the six or seven major players, if you include Marcia now trying to work out who's aligned with whom between the four kids, Marcia, Logan and Jerry, Like, I have.
- [12:53]
C
No idea, but I mean, the whole point. So you, you're not persuaded by the resolution of the meeting in Sophie's room in which the kids, like reject Kendall and all claim to be behind Logan, wouldn't that signal that that's where their alliances are, at least in the short term?
- [13:11]
A
Correct. I am completely unconvinced that any of them is actually aligned with Logan.
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C
Okay. But they're just not aligned with Kendall.
- [13:19]
B
I think it's like what people say about, you know, foreign policy. You have, you have all allies Are, are transactional and temporary. I mean, it's, it's. Yeah, I. Are any of them motivated in some way by family, human feeling? I don't have that impression.
- [13:39]
A
Well, there is that wonderful line from Connor where he's like, I'm a public figure. And it's not a good look for a public figure to knife his father.
- [13:49]
C
But then he also does say something kind of more like gentle like, I just can't do that to. You know how he calls him Logan, Pop. I just can't do that to Pop or something. You know, it did sort of feel like he didn't want to do that.
- [13:59]
B
Connor. Yeah, yeah. Well, he, in his doofusy idiotic way, yes, he could have some human sense of feeling and loyalty for his father that may have been sincere or it may have been a thing he said to himself after he decided for whatever other reasons not to join up against dad, to make himself feel like he's a good guy, you know, I don't know.
- [14:22]
C
And I think Kendall also buried himself because he said just a bunch of like batshit crazy things to his siblings and trying to convince him to come over to his side.
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D
Like, big picture, we're at the end of the long American century. Our company is a declining empire inside a declining empire.
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B
Amen, brother.
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D
People are killing themselves with guns or dope so fast that we're losing pace. Unsubscribe, we're fat fingered fucks and we can only live on cream. U.S. supremacy is waning. What I think is within that context, we can become omni national and reposition because actually we are not tied culturally or physically. So we are actually in a great position to leapfrog tech. Information is going to be more precious than water. In the next hundred combine. All our news operations become the global news information hub. Amazon is 20 years old. Gates is an old geezer. Detoxify our brand and we can go supersonic.
- [15:24]
A
This was the best, the best speech. The best speech. Like I love that Kendall speech so much because it's like he comes out and he's like, guys, can we clean slate this? And then he just launches into this absolute tidal wave of jargon and bullshit. And somehow in his, you know, deep in his plastic Jesus rubber soul, like feels that somehow this is going to persuade his siblings to come along with him. And you're like, this has everyone like rolling their eyes and he's talking about like it's the end of a long American century and leapfrog tech and epiphenomenon, blah, blah, blah, and Everyone watching that speech and all of the siblings like, oh, my God, you are such a nerd. And yet Kendall doesn't have the human ability to understand that this is exactly the wrong thing to say at this.
- [16:18]
B
Time to these people especially. And, you know, the thing is, again, brilliant, because they all are basically are rolling their eyes and like, not buying it, but it's not stupid. As a way to pitch that rap about the end of America and Batman all. The whole thing, it wasn't a comically dumb thing. It just, as you say, he didn't understand that it wouldn't sell. And the other thing, you know, having having been the guy who has the drug problem, the kind of cokehead, manic quality of his whole. Kendall's whole character in this episode is so we don't see him doing drugs, I don't think. But. But man, if that isn't a cokehead, I don't know if I've ever seen one.
- [16:59]
A
But yeah, and he definitely had. But he definitely has a mad attack of the logaria. And he loves. He like, he turns to Shiv and he goes, is it cowardice or avarice? And you're like, ooh, those are good words.
- [17:10]
B
Yes, yes, exactly.
- [17:12]
C
Is that for you rich dude experts out there, like, is this like something that's maybe typical of someone born into massive wealth, who's never been told no and who maybe thinks they're a little bit of a genius, feels like he can say and do things like this because everyone treats him with unearned respect?
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A
So then it does have a little bit of Jared Kushner to it, right?
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C
Yeah, yeah, that's what I think. That was my takeaway. Like, this rich guy does not know how to run a business. He doesn't know how to talk about strategy. He's like low grade idiot, unqualified. And now that's clear. And I did feel like Shiv was persuaded not to get onto his side by how dumb he sounds because she sounded smart in her strategy in the past.
- [17:59]
B
It's funny, I hadn't thought of the Jared connection, but yes, that's. He's very Kushnerian. Jared Kushnerian. Except, of course, you know, Jared, at least so far. And obviously it's too late now. Never did the thing that, you know, he could have, should have done about his father in law. He should have pulled the Kendall, right? And never did. But in his, like, in over his head, kind of entitled but insecure, skinny way, Kendall is a very Jared guy.
- [18:32]
A
One of the things that really struck me about this episode is the way that everyone lies to everyone about everything for no particular reason. Like when Kendall goes off to talk to Stewie and, you know, over the street, he's like, I'm going to go hug my kids. When. When Shiv asked Tom if he knew that she was at Kendall's house, it's like, no, I didn't know. All of these pointless lies, right? There's no reason for these lies, but they just lie reflexively because. What did Jerry call it? Snake Linguini.
- [19:15]
B
Well, if you're playing. If you're playing a game all the time, you're playing liars poker all the time, you're going to lie because no particular reason except keep your cards close to your vest because you're playing this card game, you know, so. But. But to that point, I mean, you know, only time I was ever, like a boss of a lot of people, one of the reasons I decided, like, yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to do this anymore much, because it seems to me when you're running any kind of business, even one, you know, magazine with 100 people who work there, you gotta lie. You gotta. You are required to dissemble, at least, if not lie. And so if you're in this, if you're running whatever it's called, Wayfair, Waystar, Royco, Waystar, you know, part of doing that at any level is. Is not instinctively and by default telling the truth. So, you know, it's. I think it goes with that, even if you're not lying to your siblings and father about your other siblings and.
- [20:16]
C
Your father, I think lying and controlling access to information is a way to feel powerful when you maybe aren't or can't feel powerful or you're trying very hard.
- [20:26]
A
Oh, definitely. Like that wonderful scene with the manila envelope where Kendall writes fuck you and puts in the envelope and hands it puts in the place where Shiva's gonna look. I mean, it's this wonderful sort of way of trying to feel powerful, but also just such a sibling move. Like, we have all done that to our siblings, right?
- [20:45]
B
The other thing that you get that this show does well, just in everything about how it's made and shot and everything else is the bubble in which they exist of just being among themselves and their minions is fantastic because again, that's been my experience as an anthropologist of the super rich and of big time executives in general, is the bubbles in which they live. And being shocked at what a cup of coffee costs at Starbucks, which a mogul of My acquaintance once did in my presence. And. And. And I think they just do that so well. And not that it's so, you know, I mean, yeah, they have private jets and all that, but it's. But this show does not do the Dynasty. You know, Dallas, I'm dating myself kind of wealth porn quite as much as it could it. I don't know. Except for private jets. To me, their life is not very enviable. You know nothing about it except private jets.
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C
They don't do nothing is shot in a way that's like dating myself too. Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous Y or like makes you covet anything these people have. And in fact I feel like what they've done with Logan so far in these first two episodes is like he is kind of trapped in the most down market. We talked about this last week. The most like down market five star hotel that's ever been. And there's this one shot in episode two that they hone in on Logan's salad. And it's like one of those sad hotel salads with the cubes of ham and the cubes of cheese. And he's just like poking at it. And I was like, billionaire or not. Like that's. That's a bad salad.
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B
I'm with you.
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A
I had. The salads are universal.
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B
I had that same salad moment. I go, wait, you know, no, I want to be in my hotel room and have this glorious cod salad of the likes of which I've never seen. No, that exactly.
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C
Oh, and he just looks. And that's when he's at most like the. He says the world is wobbling. I need Shiv. I need, you know, I need Connor. I need all of my people.
- [22:48]
A
But who he needs and who he says he needs and who he gets is. And I cannot overestimate, I cannot overstate how happy I am about her re emergence into the show. Is Marcia. Like she was missing for most of season two and boy is she back. And I mean she has found him at his moment of maximum weakness.
- [23:11]
B
She.
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A
It has come in with maximum leverage. She is being incredibly nice to him and you know, is extracting God knows how many billions of dollars in the process in this incredibly mercenary way. And oh my God, Marcia.
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C
Oh my God, Marcia. She swoops in and they have this like. It's the moment where I guess Logan's supposed to apologize to her, but he's obviously incapable of doing that and says like, I can't. I can't eat shit, Marcia. I just can't. And the Closest he gets to apology is saying. Is saying I can sometimes get distracted, and that literally counts as the apology. And then all that has to happen next. Marcia says, of course, I might like to have a small conversation with somebody, which is code for, like, I need a lot of money to make this happen. Make it happen for me.
- [24:01]
B
And it does.
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C
It was so amazing.
- [24:03]
A
She has the single best line in the episode. I have to come out and say this is the best line of the episode is when, like, Hugo says to her, like, look, nothing happened, because we really would say that nothing ever happened. She's a.
- [24:15]
C
And it's not my problem if she wouldn't finish him.
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B
Yes. Interesting thing about her, too, is one of the things that I thought, again, was so plausible and. And. And realistic about this whole thing is that none of them really have any fixed plans, which is to say Logan or the kids or what are we going to do now? Or Kendall. Like, they're just, like, they're. They're at.
- [24:37]
A
At.
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B
See, she. She is the one character who comes in, here's exactly what I want buy, and here's my person that will get it for me, and I'll go massage Logan's neck in the background while. While she does the deal. No, she. She is, like, wow, talk about, like, captain of industry, you know, master of the universe. She. She's it.
- [24:58]
C
In this episode, someone sent an email about, like, some prediction market where they're taking bets on who's going to be the CEO of Waystar Royco, and she's up there. I think she might have been. Had the best odds. Marcia and I kind of, after. What Kurt's saying is totally true. She's the one with the strategy. She executes her plan. She gets what she wants. Like, I cannot say the same for anyone else. So maybe she has the chops. Maybe she's the one.
- [25:25]
A
I do want to talk a little bit, unpack this wonderful Greg lawyer subplot. Greg is not the smartest egg, but he's smart enough to know that he needs a lawyer. But he turns to his, like, school friend, and it's like, what should I do? Just, like, I have no idea. I just. I'm in my first semester. And basically he has Kendall saying, I will set you up with a lawyer who is obviously going to be aligned with Kendall. He has Jerry literally sending a lawyer to his door and saying, like, here's your lawyer who's obviously going to be aligned with Waster. And he feels like he doesn't. He can't choose, like, does he want the waster lawyer or does he want Kendall's lawyer? And what he winds up doing is meeting his grandfather. And the grandfather says, I'll say you up with a lawyer. And Greg, once it's already too late, realizes that even Ewan, the avuncular grandfather, like is, is just out for his own agenda and has no interest in. In giving Greg actually what Greg needs. And that is the first case where Ewan feels a little bit despicable.
- [26:43]
B
I think in this show, if not despicable, certainly his. His. His. His moral high ground got lower. And.
- [26:52]
A
And.
- [26:52]
B
And again, what an interesting choice to make. Him not just be a guy who disapproves of his brother for whatever reason, but actually has this specifically left wing agenda with his old, you know, William Kunstler esque, left wing lawyer. What an interesting choice. I mean, Greg, to me, he's plausible and hilarious, and he's. Why I think that's such a hard character to play, is he is the most truly, almost implausibly comic character in his stupidity. Not entirely, because we all know stupid young dude bros like that. Or maybe we do, but I think if they don't have it pasted on the wall of their writer's room. But some version of nobody is good in this show. No character is totally virtuous in this character.
- [27:43]
A
Or even partially virtuous, really.
- [27:45]
B
I mean, well, Ewan is maybe partially virtuous and Greg is, you know, for all that Greg has done, is not the. Is, you know, maybe the least evil.
- [27:54]
C
You know, I don't understand, like, what the end game there actually is. Does that mean they want to take down Waystar? Royko, like, what is happening with that? I don't know.
- [28:03]
B
We'll see. I mean, that's why it's so interesting.
- [28:05]
A
So, like. But Ewan has been, like, dropping the same hint twice. It's like I'm putting my affairs in order. And Ewan is a major shareholder of Waystar Royco, and what it means for him to be putting his affairs in order. You know, it would not surprise me if he were somehow back channeling with Sandy and Stewie. But also, like, he probably hates Sandy and Stewie just as much as he hates his own brother. So, you know, there could. Who knows? Maybe there's some, like, weird connection between Ewan and Marcia. Like, again, like, the alliance is fluid, but he, I think, has a plan. Marcia has a plan, but I think Ewan has a plan as well. We just don't know what that plan is.
- [28:54]
B
Speaking of the left, the sudden left Wing story thread. I thought they did. Again, what don't they do? Well, but the calls that Logan and Jerry made to the President and the President's whomever, chief of staff or whoever that was supposed to be, were so well done and shows the actual access of super rich people, especially super rich media moguls, to two presidents and their closest minions. And again, it's just a glimpse of plutocracy, really. Just lovely. Without being overdone and not like calling up and Logan saying, the president do this and the president does it. Nothing that broad or crude or vulgar. Just the way it would actually, I think, be and play out.
- [29:47]
C
Is that how it would be? I mean, I was thinking, I guess, of Roger Ailes and Donald Trump and that whole time period where Trump would come out and say, like, nice things about.
- [29:57]
B
Yeah, but Trump, I mean, Trump, we can't. I mean, we can't assume that the president, this. What is he called? The raisin. The raisin is Donald Trump or anybody like him. But yeah, I don't know whether it's how it would play out. It's just. It's more subtle and nuanced and less like, you know, stupid than it would be so often done in. In fiction.
- [30:22]
A
And. And I think that, you know, the relationship that Logan has with the president is probably not that far off the relationship that, say, Rupert Murdoch had with George W. Bush. It's less powerful. Like, Rupert Murdoch has much more access to and even control over the heads of state in the UK and Australia.
- [30:44]
B
But it's.
- [30:45]
A
But like, so he's still in a little bit of sort of supplicant mode when it comes to President of the United States, but he definitely has access.
- [30:54]
B
Exactly. And again, Trump is this outlier so far, where I'm sure Rupert Murdoch could call him up and tell him. I'm sure there was a more direct thing there than ever existed with Rupert Murdoch and the previous presidents or subsequent presidents.
- [31:11]
A
Right. With Trump, of course, famously, he would call Rupert and would just rant at him on the phone to the point at which Rupert kept on trying to, like, hang up on him and Trump would just not shut up.
- [31:23]
B
Yeah. So the thing of being, oh, the president's not gonna talk to you, so you're number two. Talk to the president's number two. Yeah, that seemed true.
- [31:32]
C
And I was gonna say, in terms of plutocracy, there's a scene in season two where Logan says something about the raisin. The president, he says something like, I've seen so many of these guys, like, I've Been in business. I've seen what, 8, 10 president he believes himself to be. And I think probably is true for a lot of these guys to be more powerful than a president. He's in and out like Logan is or was the forever president. Right. I mean, these guys have more power than any political figure some do like.
- [32:02]
A
And I think that's one of the differences between media moguls and the ultra rich. Like, media moguls have wealth and power, whereas rich people just have wealth, depending.
- [32:11]
B
On how corrupt the party is we're talking about.
- [32:14]
C
But we can go back to the limo. Felix with Sandy's daughter and Stewie. Thank God Stewie is back. I felt about his reappearance. I wanted more. I missed him in the first episode.
- [32:25]
A
Everyone loves Stewie.
- [32:26]
C
He tried to send a severed head, but the paperwork was too much. He's great. I just. I was really glad to see him. I hope he plays. He gets almost all the good lines. Him and Roman, I think, vie for the best lines. Right.
- [32:40]
A
So.
- [32:40]
C
But it wasn't clear to me. Back to the limo conversation. Is Sandy and Stewie, are they back with Kendall now? Are they.
- [32:48]
A
So Sandy and Stewie are still in this. The longest proxy fight that has ever existed in the history of proxy fights. It started in season one and it's still going on in like episode two of season three. And basically Kendall is making a profit to them. He's saying, if we team up, if. If I put my votes with you, I will give you the board seats. I will not. I will make you a central part of the board and you can have a bunch of control and power and we will kick out Logan. And in return for that, can you like, drop this proxy fight? And Sandy and Stewie kind of at this point are not persuaded that Kendall has a clue what he's doing. And so they're basically being non committal. But one little bit of reality that I did want to ask you specifically about, Kurt, was when Connor talks about the wolf pack, when he talks about the guys with Logan and Mo and the wolf and the guys who are running the cruises and running the show. And there have been a lot of profiles of late of David Zaslav, who is the new media mogul in town, and how he does these big, you know, all male retreats and dinners with all of the other media moguls. And it feels, I think the word wolf pack might actually have like, been in some of those profiles. Does the Wolf pack as a concept still exist in. In media?
- [34:24]
B
That's a. That's a very good question. It seems like, you know, certainly since 2017, the stakes and the risks of Wolfpackery would have made it more rare. But you do have the shadow of the late unlamented Jeffrey Epstein, of course. And that was all happening, you know, a decade within, you know, not the last couple of years in that way, but certainly recently still. I mean, sure. I mean, is there stuff like that going on? I, I would, you know, the, the wise bet would be to bet. Yes. And, and there is a sense in terms of, of the, the show, which is, it's, it's, it's in the past. Right? It's. They, they talk about it as these old, older guys in the past, so that seems entirely plausible. And again, in the previous season, they explained what that was all about. More specifically now in this episode, in this season, they're just kind of referring to it as though we know because we do. But, but again, I, I, it's, it's interesting, given that that was, that is the big part of Kendall's turn play is that how, how relatively unspecific in, in what we just have seen they are being about what those crimes and misdemeanors are.
- [35:41]
C
The pipeline of sad dancers.
- [35:44]
B
Yes.
- [35:44]
A
Shift does like, provide a little bit of useful Aidan Memoirs when she's talking about, like, throwing migrants off the side of boats and in international waters and that kind of, you know, less than, less than sterling behavior.
- [35:58]
B
And in terms of hiring these female comms people and lawyers, if you're Kendall, it obviously makes that all the more interesting.
- [36:09]
A
I mean, all of the powerful lawyers are women. Right. It's just the slightly dufassy communist use of men.
- [36:15]
B
Correct. And so far, I mean, none of those people, even though they're on the right side because Kendall is on the right side, come across as sterling epitomes of virtue either.
- [36:27]
D
No.
- [36:27]
C
And Kendall explodes at shiv at the end of that whole conversation and makes that crass comment about her. I was the only one you wanted.
- [36:38]
B
Yeah.
- [36:39]
C
I was the only one who mattered.
- [36:40]
D
Yeah, only because you're the girl. Girls count double now, didn't you know?
- [36:43]
C
Oh, yeah, no, I know. I fucking know.
- [36:45]
D
It's only your teats that give you any value, so, you know, it's only your teats.
- [36:50]
C
He makes that comment and just undercuts everything he said before. You know, he's on the right side of everything. And then he says, the only reason I wanted you is because you're a woman and you're more valuable in these times. It's like, okay, well, it's clear now, though. We knew before that this is not about ethics.
- [37:06]
B
No, no. And now women are worth twice. Women are worth double. No, that was brilliantly done. And leaves it up to you, the viewer, to sort of say, oh, this is just bullshit. He's, you know, this. This. This being the, you know, fighter for women without having any character say that.
- [37:25]
C
Yeah, yeah. And it's the Beautiful, too, I think. Like, you're saying that they don't really, like, spell out the allegations ever. Even when they first broke in season two, we still don't have, like, a fully clear understanding of what happened actually. Like, it's just sort of, like, out there. There's, like, hints of it, but it's not like being. You're not being banged over the head with it.
- [37:48]
A
There was that very long Wall Street Journal story, but, like, the characters have read it, but we just kind of got the same.
- [37:53]
C
Yeah, we don't know what it says this season. Like, it could be like a quote unquote, like, about the MeToo, how MeToo played out in the media and amongst powerful people. And the truth about how it played out is so different from how you would maybe think about it from the. You know, it's just. It's just about bad times for powerful people and how they react to it and align themselves around. It has nothing to do with, like, we're exposing bad behavior, blah, blah, blah. Also, I just very randomly need to mention this. The photo for Logan on Shiv's phone is Saddam Hussein. Just. I just needed to mention that in case you missed it. Go back.
- [38:30]
A
That was so great.
- [38:30]
B
Missed it.
- [38:31]
A
That was the very first shot in the episode. Is that. Yeah, Logan's phoning and, like, up comes Saddam Hussein is the picture. And you're like, that is awesome.
- [38:39]
B
Have we had any. Speaking of which. In this show so far? Any jokes about any of them calling themselves Uday and Kyusse or something? I guess not, but no.
- [38:49]
A
I mean, we did have Roman kind of kidnapped in some obscure Middle Eastern country.
- [38:54]
C
Oh, right. That was fun.
- [38:55]
B
Or Turkey. One of those. I don't know if it's obscure Middle East. Yeah.
- [38:58]
A
But as a great murdocologist, Kurt, we. We should also, I'm not Michael Wolf.
- [39:05]
B
Who you think you're talking to. Really?
- [39:08]
A
I thought you were Michael Wolf. I. I should ask you about the. The bit where Marcia starts laying out her list of demands, and she's like, I want my. I want to be part of the trust. I want my children to be, like, part of the Trust. Like, this is very, very much a Murdoch thing. Right. This is exactly what Wendy Deng did with her daughters.
- [39:33]
B
Precisely. Correct. And why. Why I mentioned, why I brought her up earlier is. Yes, it is. Exactly. Even though in that instance in. In the real life, quasi inspiration for this story, he. I think she did that actually before the end of the marriage, and this isn't the end of the marriage. And he had some leverage in that case because of her shenanigans with, say, the minister of the uk. Yes.
- [40:03]
A
All right. So, Emily.
- [40:05]
C
Yes.
- [40:06]
A
What did you think of this episode overall? Do you have a favorite line? Do you have any major takeaways?
- [40:12]
C
I feel like this is kind of like a setup episode. You know, it's setting us up for the rest of the season, but in itself it's not. I don't think it's one of my favorite episodes, so. And as far as favorite lines, because that's what we always do on Slate Money succession, I think it would be.
- [40:33]
B
Oh, you mean us, this multi fucking ethnic transgender alliance of 20 something dreamers.
- [40:40]
C
We got right here, which is what Roman said. Refer to he.
- [40:43]
A
Such a great line. Such a great line. I think I'm gonna go with the Roman line as well. Which is when he, he, he calls up Jerry and he goes, I'm just gonna put my dick in your mad, scheming scissorhands here. I, I agree. I think, I think this was. There was a bunch of, like, blocking and tackling in this episode, which is setting us up for, for future fireworks. But Kurt, what did. What's your.
- [41:11]
B
No, I, I think there was no. You had to do what they did or you had to do. You had to do the. Okay, now what happens? And the fact that they did it without any, you know, six months later. But it was like moments after the previous season ended. I think I liked because it didn't seem a cheat, it seemed more real. So I thought that was fine. It wasn't. If we had to rate all. Whatever how many episodes there have been 20x so far. It's not one of the very best, but given that, I'm always worried with shows I love, like, oh, is it going to keep it up? Is it going to be as good? I felt like, whoa, we're back. I am satisfied. Even though it's not one of the best episodes ever, I'm sure we're all.
- [41:55]
A
Watching it on hbo. Max. It's on demand. I can say, as someone who's watched it twice, it's better the second time if you can, you know, if you're the kind of person who likes to ever watch episodes twice, Succession is definitely one of the shows where you do want to watch it twice, and especially this episode, it benefits from a second.
- [42:16]
B
Well, and now I need to watch it twice just to see Saddam Hussein come up on.
- [42:21]
A
You only need to watch it for the first, like, 30 seconds and then, then you can turn it up.
- [42:26]
B
But no, so I, I, I, I'm, I, I am, I'm not worried at all. And I think. And, and no, all of. All that was great in general about the previous seasons to me is I feel like they've still got their stuff. They're not, they're not being complacent, they're not being lazy.
- [42:45]
A
Oh, wait, I'm gonna. I just need to mention one more line because I love it so much. And I forgot because Greg doesn't have so many awesome lines, but that line where he turns to kennel, he goes.
- [42:54]
B
You know, I don't really want to go to Congress again.
- [42:57]
D
I'm kind of too young to be.
- [42:58]
B
In Congress so much, you know.
- [43:03]
A
So. Once again. Applause for the writers room. A Succession. We love them very much, based as they are in my hometown of South London. Thank you, Kurt, for coming on the show. It's always amazing and awesome and brilliant to have you on the show.
- [43:18]
B
Well, you know, you keep giving away perks like advanced screening copies of Succession, and I'll be back as often as you want.
- [43:25]
A
Brilliant. So, yeah, we will be back next week with episode three of Sleep Money, Succession.