Slate Money – "Systemic Interventions" (June 6, 2020)
Host: Felix Salmon
Co-Hosts: Anna Szymanski, Emily Peck
Guest: Stacey Marie Ishmael (Editorial Director, Texas Tribune)
Episode Overview
This episode of Slate Money tackles a tumultuous week in business, finance, and society, framed by the release of a bewildering May 2020 jobs report and the eruption of nationwide Black Lives Matter protests after the killing of George Floyd. Felix Salmon and his co-hosts are joined by Stacey Marie Ishmael for a deep, nuanced discussion of economic recovery, racial inequality, reparations, and the role of corporations and policy in addressing systemic issues.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. May Jobs Report: Surprising Numbers and Hidden Realities
- [02:22] The team dives into the "shocker" unemployment report: 2.5 million jobs created in May, bringing the official unemployment rate down to 13.3% from higher levels, contrary to expectations.
- Data Caveats: Stacey highlights statistical "messiness"—many people misclassified, with real unemployment undercounted by potentially 3%.
- Quote: "There is some messiness in this, in the way that there has to be." – Stacey [03:38]
- Disparities Remain: Despite overall improvement, black and Asian unemployment rates did not budge or increased, while Hispanic/Latino rates hit 17.6%—the highest among all groups.
- Quote: "The unemployment for African Americans went up... while everyone else... the overall unemployment rate went down." – Felix [06:01]
- Mixed Interpretations: The panel debates whether this is "good news" or "bad news," referencing Paul Krugman’s warning that a perceived recovery might dissuade further government intervention.
2. Pandemic, Reopening, and Curfews: Conflicting Policies
- [09:08] Stacey underscores uncertainty about the effects of reopening, possible second waves of COVID-19, and the economic impact of curfews during protests.
- Conflicting Guidance: Emily laments the whipsaw from "stay home" to "reopen" back to curfews, asking, "What do you want from us?" [10:58]
- Policy Effectiveness: The hosts express concern that high unemployment—though improving—remains historically severe and may not guarantee further stimulus, especially in an election year.
3. Elections and Unemployment: What's More Important?
- [12:18] Felix puts the classic question to Stacey: is the level or the direction of unemployment more important in elections?
- Nuanced Impact: Stacey stresses that the distribution of unemployment and disenfranchisement matters—a high rate declining might not help if those most affected can’t vote or lack economic buffers.
- Quote: "The real unemployment rate really matters... but the effect of the real unemployment rate might not be matched by someone's ability to cast their votes as to how they feel about it." – Stacey [13:52]
4. Structural Racism and Economic Inequality
The Depth of the Racial Wealth Gap
- [14:37] Stacey paints the broad context of black economic disenfranchisement:
- The average white household holds as much wealth as 9-11 African American households of the same income.
- Quote: "That's a middle class household with like $65,000 annual income has like seven or eight times as much wealth as an African American household with the same income." – Felix [15:24]
- Homeownership, credit access, generational wealth, school discipline rates, and the presence of policing intersect to restrict opportunity.
- The average white household holds as much wealth as 9-11 African American households of the same income.
- Historical Stagnancy: Emily notes that black Americans owned 0.5% of US wealth after emancipation—today, it's just 1.1%.
- Quote: "Today... black people own about 1.1% of all the wealth in the United States." – Emily [17:14]
The Difficulty of Change
- [17:23] Felix observes: entrenched inequalities often persist for centuries, much like northern/southern Italy's economic gap—meaning progress is extremely slow without radical intervention.
Public Policy: What Would Work?
- [18:51] Stacey: Before solutions, there must be consensus on the reality of the disparity. She calls for:
- Data-driven recognition of facts
- Targeted interventions: Affirmative action, homeownership and redlining remedies, enforcement of acts like Community Reinvestment, regulation of digital redlining.
- No "single thing" will work—systemic problems require systemic interventions.
- Quote: "You have to treat systemic problems with systemic interventions." – Stacey [21:20]
5. Reparations: Why and How?
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[24:28] Ana raises the daunting issue: 400 years of harm can't be undone by tweaks—America owes a literal debt for centuries of unpaid labor.
- Quote: "[The country] was built on unpaid labor that's incurred a lot of interest over the years. It should be paid out." – Ana [24:13]
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Where to Start?
- HR 40 Commission: Stacey supports the idea of starting by studying and documenting harm—land theft is a "receipt-rich" area ripe for focused reparations.
- Quote: "Studying is the correct and wise starting point, because... there are different ways of tackling this. You could start from... land theft." – Stacey [25:50]
- Targeted Wealth Creation: Emily cites Marisa Baradaran—homeownership grants, free land, and student loan forgiveness as reparative tools.
- Housing as Policy: Felix suggests the US needs more affordable housing, and targeting African Americans would both address past wrongs and current economic needs.
- HR 40 Commission: Stacey supports the idea of starting by studying and documenting harm—land theft is a "receipt-rich" area ripe for focused reparations.
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Structural Policy Barriers: Stacey notes incentives like the mortgage interest deduction have excluded non-homeowners, compounding historical disparities.
6. Numbers Round: Data That Stings
- Contact Tracers in Texas: Stacey [31:40]—Texas pledged 4,000 tracers by June 1; only 2,900 were in place, showing the challenge of state-level pandemic response.
- 20.9 Million: Felix [32:54]—Approximate number of unemployed in the US per the latest report, warning against adding up weekly jobless claims.
- Police Killings in Brazil: Ana [34:23]—In April, Rio police killed 6 people per day (up 40% year-on-year); 75% of victims are Afro-Brazilian.
- LEGO’s $4 Million Donation: Emily [35:30]—LEGO donates to protest causes, suspends police-themed marketing amid unrest.
7. Corporate Donations & Diversity Statements
- [38:21] Slate Money dissects the wave of corporate donations/statements.
- PR vs. Substance: Stacey draws a sharp line between performative statements and real change.
- Quote: "There is a really substantial difference between PR... and things that are actual change in a corporate context." [40:18]
- Policy Contradictions: Co-hosts point out that many same companies resisting minimum wage hikes, paid leave, and meaningful diversity in practice are rushing to send symbolic messages.
- Internal Company Culture: Emily recalls a story about LinkedIn's failed "frank conversation" on race, which descended into anonymous racism—proof that internal problems run deep.
- Meritocracy Myth: Stacey cites backlash at Google and other tech companies, where discussing structural racism or instituting DEI programs is still often resisted.
- PR vs. Substance: Stacey draws a sharp line between performative statements and real change.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- "It's difficult to have a policy conversation unless we agree on the reality of the diagnosis." – Stacey [18:51]
- "How do you undo 400 years by saying, okay, we're going to tweak things here and there, like, it doesn't seem possible..." – Ana [24:13]
- "Even the current tax code is set up to reward people who own assets that other folks... have been disenfranchised from..." – Stacey [30:12]
- "Honestly, I think that companies donating money is total bullshit." – Emily [41:32]
- "There is a really substantial difference between PR... and things that are actual change in a corporate context." – Stacey [40:18]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [02:22]–[09:57] — May Jobs Report: Surprises, Interpretations, and Equity Implications
- [13:52]–[18:51] — Black Lives Matter, Economic Disparity, and Historical Context
- [18:51]–[24:28] — Diagnosing Inequality, Policy Interventions, and Structural Barriers
- [24:28]–[31:28] — Reparations: Historic Debts and Policy Solutions
- [31:40]–[35:30] — Numbers Round: Texas Tracers, US Unemployment, Brazil Policing, LEGO Donations
- [38:21]–[45:44] — Corporate Donations, Diversity Statements, and Real vs. Performative Change
Overall Tone
The conversation is open, analytical, at times frustrated and wry, but consistently committed to realism and meaningful action over platitude—especially regarding racial justice, economic recovery, and the role of public and private institutions.
This summary aims to give non-listeners a clear, full picture of the discussion, highlighting the data, expertise, and candid commentary that make this episode a rich examination of systemic economic and racial issues amid a historic moment.