Slate Money – "Tariff Stockholm Syndrome"

Date: May 10, 2025
Host: Felix Hamlin (Axios)
Co-hosts: Elizabeth Spires (New York Times), Emily Peck (Axios)

Episode Overview

This week's episode of Slate Money dives deep into recent U.S.-UK trade negotiations under President Trump, dissects the evolving discourse around tariffs, discusses Bill Gates's high-profile plan to spend down his fortune, and unpacks OpenAI’s ongoing struggles with its nonprofit status and mission. The panel also shares anecdotes about consumer surprises, ID requirements, and misleading advertising.

Main Discussion Topics

1. US-UK Trade Deal & The Tariff "Baseline"

[00:25 – 15:28]

• "A very interesting deal": The U.S.–UK trade pact under Trump is explored, particularly how meaningful (or not) the “win” is for each side.

  • UK tariffs on U.S. goods drop, while the major U.S. 10% tariff remains, except a key cut on British specialist car exports.
  • Felix: “Britain exports a non-negligible number of cars… like Rolls Royces and Bentleys and McLarens and Jaguars…” (01:40)
  • Deal judged largely symbolic; beneficial for luxury carmakers, not the general consumer.

• Resetting Expectations:

  • Trump’s across-the-board 10% tariff is newly cemented, reframing trade talks and setting new baselines for future negotiations.
  • Elizabeth: “The entire world has Stockholm syndrome with regard to Trump's trade policies...any advancement away from that feels like a win, even if it's something that's incredibly stupid, never should have happened in the first place.” (03:39)

• Political Calculus:

  • Tariffs still not broadly popular; only certain groups benefit (unions, specific industries like seafood).
  • Felix questions why Biden never removed Trump’s tariffs if voters dislike them; Elizabeth suggests Biden’s were narrower and less noticeable.

• Real-World Impacts:

  • Emily: “Don't sleep on the shrimp people. They are insanely excited… But on the whole…small business owners are not thrilled. They don't like it.” (07:41 – 09:55)
  • Price increases beginning to touch small business supply chains; slow to show up in consumer prices and inflation data but disruptive for import-reliant entrepreneurs.

• Stock Market Psychology:

  • Market reactions to tariff news are often more about headlines than about actual portfolio changes.
  • Emily: “Losing the money is more jarring than the gradual return to baseline... loss aversion, yes, exactly.” (10:56)
  • Current market optimism trusts rapid resolution via more tailored deals, especially with China.

2. Tariffs on China & Supply Chain Shifts

[11:49 – 16:34]

• Tariffs Not Absorbable:

  • Felix: “When you have a 50% [tariff], if that's already so enormous… the difference between 50% and 145% doesn’t seem huge to me, but maybe it makes a difference.” (12:18)
  • Small businesses—unlike giants like Apple—can't simply reroute production or absorb costs.
  • Shift of imports from China to India or other markets is already underway, furthering supply chain decoupling.

• Complications of Tariff Calculations:

  • Tariff law, country-of-origin rules, and the slow grind of litigation (mostly led by small businesses) mean that policy effects are unpredictable and drawn out.

3. Bill Gates's Giving Pledge & Philanthropy in Crisis

[17:14 – 29:42]

• Gates’s Announcement:

  • The Gates Foundation will wind down by 2045; all remaining Gates wealth, ~$100 billion, to be donated.
  • Elizabeth: “[Gates] seems kind of low-key, outraged.” (17:42)
  • Felix: “This is Bill Gates with his hair on fire and specifically targeting Elon Musk…[accusing him of] killing millions of children by…slashing USAID.” (17:54)

• Foreign Aid Gap:

  • Private philanthropy is not enough to fill the vacuum left by government aid cuts—especially with US and EU retrenching on international spending.
  • Gates believes urgent, front-loaded philanthropic spending now can save more lives per dollar as governmental support dwindles.

• “Die With Zero” Dilemma:

  • Gates aims for Chuck Feeney-style “die broke” giving.
  • Emily: “How do you do that though?...Even if he tries to give it all away, he's still going to wind up…with his holdings earning whatever million, billion.” (21:31)
  • Felix: “He's not giving away his dividend income, Emily. He's giving away his principal. That's the whole point.” (21:45)

• Critique of Billionaire Philanthropy:

  • Emily: “What happens…if our future billionaires are all more like Elon Musk and less like Bill Gates?” (28:16)
  • Felix: “The overwhelming majority of billionaires basically do little, if any, philanthropy…” (28:22)
  • Still, history suggests there’s always at least “one billionaire” making a genuine impact (“the next Bill Gates”), even as the hosts remain skeptical about future prospects.

4. OpenAI’s Nonprofit Status and Governance Questions

[30:12 – 39:40]

• Corporate Structure Flip-Flops:

  • OpenAI reversed an earlier plan to separate its nonprofit and for-profit arms. Now, the nonprofit retains board control of the for-profit PBC (Public Benefit Corporation).
  • Elizabeth: “It’s probably good, but I don’t think it’s a principled move…their byzantine capital structure was really inhibiting fundraising.” (31:48)

• Depth of Oversight:

  • Elizabeth: “It’s the optics of oversight without real teeth.” (35:52)
  • Debate: Does the nonprofit arm actually have meaningful authority, or is its oversight functionally hollow?

• Governance Realities:

  • The nonprofit’s main function is to select for-profit board members, but with little staff or operational funding (“no revenues” as Felix notes).
  • Potential conflict: board members can double-serve on both boards and financially benefit from the for-profit side.

• Idealism vs. Pragmatism:

  • Felix: “The company is actually governed by a nonprofit. Is that going to make a real difference? Probably, but we don’t know exactly what that will look like.” (38:45)
  • As with other industries (universities, hospitals), structure can matter—but actual outcomes depend on individual board members' choices and organizational culture.

5. Numbers Round & Anecdotes

[40:10 – 50:31]

• 70,000 Dum Dums – Emily tells the story of a child who ordered 70,000 Dum Dum lollipops on his mother’s Amazon account, leading to a viral plea for help and eventual refund.

  • Emily: “Don’t let your children just browse Amazon for fun. Bad idea.” (41:18)
  • Elizabeth: “We’ll end up with 100,000 rolls of paper towels” (on Amazon’s old Dash buttons and kids). (42:30)

• Real ID Bureaucratic Nightmares

  • Elizabeth: Need for Real ID, annoying hurdles (especially for women who’ve changed their last name), and American differences with passport “culture.”
  • Felix: “Something like 48% of Americans have passports… something like 44%… take at least one flight per year… So how many people can this really affect [lacking Real ID or passport]?” (43:53)

• Biometrics as ID

  • Tech as ID savior: Felix lauds facial recognition at airports, joking, “Never have to worry, did I forget my eyes?” (48:14).

• Burger King's Meat Math Lawsuit

  • Felix: “If it’s 35% larger, that means it has 35% more meat… you have to just pick one metric and go with it, people.” (49:18)
  • Fast food ads’ infamous inaccuracies; public appetite for “litigious, burger loving, fast food connoisseur” justice. (50:27)

Notable Quotes

• Elizabeth Spires on Tariffs:
  “The entire world has Stockholm syndrome with regard to Trump's trade policies. If he does across-the-board tariffs, and we all sort of get used to it and decide this is the new normal, any advancement away from that feels like a win, even if it's something that's incredibly stupid, never should have happened in the first place.” (03:39)

• Felix Hamlin on Gates vs. Musk:
  “This is Bill Gates with his hair on fire and specifically targeting Elon Musk and saying…instead of saving millions of lives, he's actually killing millions of children by, you know, slashing USAID. And what the actual fuck.” (17:54)

• Emily Peck on Economic Psychology:
  “Losing the money is worse and more jarring…than the gradual return to baseline… loss aversion, yes, exactly.” (10:56)

• Elizabeth Spires on OpenAI:
  “It's the optics of oversight without real teeth.” (35:52)

Key Timestamps

• US–UK Trade Deal & Trump Tariff Baseline: 00:25 – 09:16
• Tariff Politics, Voter Impact, and Small Business Strain: 09:16 – 14:34
• China Tariffs, Supply Chains, & Legal Issues: 14:34 – 16:34
• Bill Gates’s Foundation Closure and Anti-Musk Rhetoric: 17:14 – 29:42
• OpenAI Nonprofit Structure & Oversight Debate: 30:12 – 39:40
• Numbers Round: Dum Dums, Real ID Anxiety, Burger King Lawsuit: 40:10 – 50:31

Tone & Style

The show retains its signature blend of irreverence, deep dives, and lived experience, mixing potent economic commentary ("tariff Stockholm syndrome") with personal stories and pop culture asides. Quips, light mockery, and genuine curiosity about the underlying nuts and bolts of commerce, government, and corporate governance keep the episode accessible and engaging throughout.

Memorable Moments

• Felix’s "Segway game is on fleek" — followed by the panel's collective groan. (17:08)
• Dum Dum Lollipops disaster anecdote — a viral example of e-commerce gone awry. (40:10 – 42:01)
• Real ID paperwork issues turning dystopian:
  Emily: “She gave me this really meaningful look… Is this the beginning of the Handmaid's Tale? Like, they're taking away the women's IDs or something. So that disturbed me.” (46:25)
• Burger King lawsuit math rant:
  Felix: “If it’s 35% larger, that means it has 35% more meat. If it has 100% more meat, then that means it’s 100% larger. Like, you have to just pick one metric and go with it, people.” (49:18)

For listeners who missed the episode:
This summary covers the essential topics—Trump’s trade maneuverings and their psychological impacts, the shifting landscape of modern global philanthropy, the complex realities of tech nonprofit governance, and how all these big trends shimmer through everyday headlines, consumer mishaps, and even fast-food lawsuits—with humor, insight, and plenty of lively debate.