Slate Money Podcast

"The Give People Money" Edition

Date: July 14, 2018
Host: Felix Salmon (Slate)
Panelists: Anna Szymanski (Slate), Emily Peck (Huffington Post)
Guest: Annie Lowrey (The Atlantic), author of "Give People Money"

Episode Overview

This episode explores Annie Lowrey’s new book “Give People Money,” focusing on the idea of Universal Basic Income (UBI), the societal choices around poverty, and the feasibility of reducing or eliminating poverty in the United States. The panel also discusses the Turkish lira crisis and the nature of "self-made" wealth, centering on Kylie Jenner and the valuation of her cosmetics business. Throughout, the conversation questions the narratives about poverty, wealth, and the myths that shape public policy and business.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Annie Lowrey’s Book – “Give People Money” ([02:14–18:12])

The central thesis:

• Explores Universal Basic Income less as a definitive solution and more as a framework for rethinking welfare and anti-poverty programs.
• Focus on making assistance simpler, more universal, and less punitive (“no pee-in-a-cup to get it type thing” – Annie Lowrey, 03:12).

Poverty as a Societal Choice:

• “Poverty is a choice that we make as a society, whereas we're often taught that it's a choice that people make themselves.” (Emily Peck, 06:54)
• The U.S. has the resources to eliminate poverty and child poverty, but policies are not directed toward this goal:
  “In a country that's as rich as the United States ... we elect to have poverty ...” (Annie Lowrey, 05:29)
• UBI is already being trialed worldwide, with programs in low-income countries showing significant results (examples: Ethiopia).

Means-testing and Universalism:

• Discussion about whether aid should be universal or targeted; Annie notes universal programs have value but don’t remove the need for progressive policies.

Political and Cultural Obstacles:

• Stigma around poverty in the U.S. is much higher than in Europe; Americans are more likely to attribute poverty to personal failings (Annie Lowrey, 11:47).
• Poor people are often ignored because they are less likely to vote and are more heavily stigmatized.
• Even left-leaning politicians (e.g., Bernie Sanders) rarely discuss eliminating poverty directly.

Notable Quote:

“The beating heart of the book is less about basic income but really about poverty and there's too much of it. And we can fix this.”
— Felix Salmon (05:00)

Women, Caregivers, and UBI:

• UBI could be particularly valuable for women and caregivers who perform trillions of dollars of uncompensated labor (15:57).

“You can think of UBI as being kind of a way of socially acknowledging that labor and providing families with more choice...”
— Annie Lowrey (16:47)

2. U.S. Social Policy and the Politics of Poverty ([07:43–13:41])

Trump Administration’s Approach:

• Shift from unconditional support to tying welfare programs to work requirements (esp. Medicaid, housing assistance, SNAP).
• “This is basically taking all policies that exist as sort of carrots and turning them into sticks.” (Annie Lowrey, 10:06)
• Evidence suggests these measures increase poverty and exclude the most vulnerable rather than encouraging employment.

Cultural Narratives:

• The demonization of the poor is contrasted with the myth of “self-made” billionaires, shaping how Americans see both poverty and wealth (Emily Peck, 13:41).
• Racial dynamics are central: modern stigmatization of welfare is closely tied to race, even though a majority of U.S. welfare recipients are white (Anna & Annie, 14:44–14:49).

3. Crisis of the Turkish Lira and Geopolitical Risk ([18:14–28:33])

Authoritarianism and Economic Instability:

• Discussion triggered by Turkey’s President Erdogan appointing his son-in-law as finance minister; seen as a warning sign of cronyism.
• Turkey faces large external debts denominated in dollars—a falling lira increases default risk (Anna Szymanski, 19:43–20:48).
• Reference to Asian Financial Crisis parallels: currency drops can trigger widespread contagion.

Global Implications:

• Diminished U.S. expertise and influence in managing international financial crises; expectation that IMF and Europe will have to take the lead (Annie Lowrey, 25:09).

“There’s just less experience in institutions like the NEC and Treasury than there has been…a lot of institutional knowledge is sitting on the outside.”
— Annie Lowrey (25:09)

• Erdogan unlikely to seek IMF help, in contrast to Argentina’s Macri, which heightens anxiety about a larger crisis.

4. Kylie Jenner and the “Self-Made” Billionaire Myth ([28:33–43:45])

Forbes’ Valuation and Media Hype:

• Kylie Jenner hailed as the “youngest self-made billionaire”—the panel is humorously skeptical, noting that her estimated $900 million net worth doesn’t technically make her a billionaire (29:53).
• Valuation by Forbes is called “lazy”—mainly projecting forward her current income with little rigor (Anna Szymanski, 31:24–33:00).

“Billionaire is a meme ... it’s a label useful or useless in different contexts, but not an empirical fact-based thing.”
— Felix Salmon (30:10)

Business Model:

• Jenner is a “Shopify billionaire,” making money via direct social media-to-sales pipeline, with huge margins and highly outsourced production (Felix Salmon, 35:34).
• Success fleeting; future dependent on her personal relevance and appeal. Not all celebrity brands achieve the same (Emily Peck, 34:38–35:06).

Women in Beauty Entrepreneurship:

• Notable increase in women-founded cosmetics brands (e.g., Rihanna’s Fenty for women of color); these offer more genuine innovation and inclusivity than Kardashian/Jenner efforts.

Commodification of Makeup:

• Much of makeup is fundamentally the same—value is created through “cultishness” and branding (Annie Lowrey, 41:43).

5. The Numbers Round ([44:08–50:50])

Four news-related stats and stories:

• Felix Salmon:
  "$4.69 billion" – Amount awarded by a Missouri jury to plaintiffs in the Johnson & Johnson talcum powder cancer case ([44:14]).

• Anna Szymanski:
  "2,000" – Women now driving for ride-hailing app Careem in Saudi Arabia since lifting the driving ban ([45:32]).

• Emily Peck:
  "500 million" – Straws used daily in the U.S.; context: Starbucks’ straw ban ([46:24]).

  “I care about the environment and I don’t want people to waste plastic or whatever, but I like straws. ... They’re nice, they’re fun.” — Emily Peck (46:35)

• Annie Lowrey:
  "3.5 billion" – Value of a new U.S. tax break for fitness/gym memberships (“the funniest tax break of all time”) ([49:12]).

  “It violates all principles. Basically, you’d be able to write off your gym membership or whatever. Why they are doing this now is a great question.” — Annie Lowrey (49:12)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On UBI and American Poverty:

  “We elect to have poverty, we elect to have extreme poverty, we elect to have child poverty in this country…”
  — Annie Lowrey (05:29)

• On Mean-testing and Welfare:

  “Nobody seems to me to worry about their experience of these programs … what they feel like they could use to increase their earning potential or make their families more comfortable.”
  — Annie Lowrey (13:41)

• On Kylie Jenner’s Billionaire Status:

  “Billionaire is a meme … not an actual empirical fact-based thing.”
  — Felix Salmon (30:10)

• On Makeup as a Commodity:

  “Makeup is fundamentally a commodity. … The products themselves aren’t actually that different.”
  — Annie Lowrey (41:43)

• On U.S. Political Will:

  “I think that there’s a much higher stigma around poverty in the U.S. compared to low income countries and in the U.S. compared to its rich country peers.”
  — Annie Lowrey (11:47)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Book Introduction & Big Ideas: [02:14–06:36]
• Welfare Policies / Trump Era Changes: [07:43–11:01]
• Political Narratives on Poverty: [11:01–15:45]
• UBI & Unpaid Care Work: [15:45–18:12]
• Turkey’s Economic Crisis: [18:14–28:33]
• Kylie Jenner, “Self-Made” Myth & Cosmetics Business: [28:33–43:45]
• Numbers Round: [44:08–50:50]

Tone and Style

Casual, witty, skeptical, and sharp—panelists mix deep policy analysis with dry humor and cultural critique. The discussion is accessible yet intelligent, often poking fun at the media, political myths, and the “feel-good” narratives that shape headline stories.

Useful For

Anyone seeking a lively, insightful discussion on Universal Basic Income, the politics of poverty, celebrity entrepreneurship myths, or the mechanics of financial crises, explained with skepticism and humor. Listeners also get a taste for how media narratives both inform and mislead public perception around wealth and poverty.