Slate Money: The Godly Edition — Episode Summary

Date: July 2, 2016
Host: Felix Salmon
Guests: Cathy O’Neill, Jordan Weissmann, Chris Lehmann (author, editor of The Baffler)

Overview: Exploring the Interplay of Money and Religion in America

In this episode of Slate Money, the hosts delve into the often-overlooked relationship between religion—primarily Christianity—and money in American society. With guest Chris Lehmann, author of The Money Cult, the panel unpacks how American religious movements have historically merged with economic attitudes, especially around prosperity, debt, and the emergence of mega-churches and televangelism. The conversation highlights how American Protestantism evolved into a unique blend of spirituality and entrepreneurial capitalism, giving rise to phenomena such as the prosperity gospel.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing the “Money Cult”

(00:45–04:20)

• Felix Salmon opens the discussion noting the podcast’s historical gap in addressing the intersection of religion and money, despite their deep coexistence in society.
• Chris Lehmann introduces himself, sharing his background as a religious studies major and self-described outsider to church culture:

  "Religion is this very powerful irrational force that does, in fact, determine a great deal, especially in the United States, about the way we think about moral values, how society should be organized, and the economy." (03:55–04:20)

2. Origins of American Christian Attitudes Toward Wealth

(04:23–08:00)

• Lehmann outlines how American Christianity became tied to commerce from its inception, giving the example of early evangelist George Whitefield selling goods upon arrival:

  "Commerce and...religion were intertwined from the beginning." (06:15)

• The panel distinguishes between American and European religious institutions, noting America’s early “deregulation” of religion (dissolving state-supported churches by 1820) led to increased denominationalism and individual entrepreneurship among preachers.

3. The Rise and Logic of the Prosperity Gospel

(10:08–14:45)

• TV evangelism and the “prosperity gospel” are framed as characteristically American, evolving in an environment where distrust of old institutional religion met entrepreneurial opportunity.

  "The most hardcore iteration of the money faith became what is now called the Prosperity gospel." (10:24)

• Lehmann explains that, in the prosperity gospel, faith is demonstrated by giving money—"seed faith"—with the promise of personal material return.

  "You give money as an act of what’s called seed faith. You plant a seed via your donation and God then allows you to prosper 100-fold." (18:10)

4. Theological Tensions: Poverty, Charity, and Wealth

(15:07–18:36)

• Discussion contrasts traditions of charity and vows of poverty, especially in Catholicism, with the American idea that wealth is virtuous.

  "There is a tradition [in Christianity] that it is good to be poor...and it is not the winning tradition in America now." (17:46)

• The American mega-church model is highlighted as uniquely tied to aspirational economics:

  "White upper middle class Americans don’t want to be told about the virtues of poverty. They want to be told why they’re virtuous...it is aspirational." (18:38)

5. Prosperity Preaching as Market Logic

(19:00–22:09)

• Joel Osteen is discussed as the model prosperity preacher, rationalizing wealth and even real estate windfalls as divine favor rather than market dynamics.

  "God gave me a parking space...this is actually stuff he truly preaches." (19:12–19:29)

• The logic persists in both up and down markets: hope and aspiration fuel giving, even as economic returns fluctuate.

  "In down markets is when you need it the most. You are...waiting around for God to be smiling." (21:45–21:51)

6. Capitalism, Faith, and Donald Trump

(22:01–24:43)

• The panel draws connections between prosperity preachers and figures like Donald Trump:

  "Donald Trump is a prosperity preacher. This is exactly the faith." (23:53)

• Truth claims in faith and politics operate on emotional truth rather than empirical fact-checking—a powerful parallel in modern American life.

  "For believers, that doesn’t matter...he says something that they believe should be true." (24:01–24:36)

7. Changing Attitudes Toward Debt

(24:43–29:55)

• The group traces American Christianity’s shift from seeing debt as a moral failure (like traditional Islam or Puritan beliefs) to viewing it as a sign of trustworthiness and entrepreneurial faith:

  "Debt then becomes a sign of trustworthiness...and if you are able to organize debt, as Donald Trump does and sort of kite it, it's not necessarily that you're shady." (26:41)

• Modern personal finance gurus like Suze Orman and Dave Ramsey are discussed as "counter-currents" that echo older, more skeptical views on debt.

8. Feedback Loops: Religion Shaping Economics & Vice Versa

(30:38–33:26)

• Debate arises as to whether American religion shapes its economic ethos or vice versa. Lehmann argues religion predates and incubates economic thinking:

  "The Protestant money faith is what incubates the particular culture of American capitalism..." (30:55)

• Cathy O’Neill injects a pragmatic concern:

  "It’s very unsustainable to put people into Ponzi schemes and promise them riches because it doesn’t work out and then they get burned...do they leave the religion or migrate to a different megachurch?" (31:34)

9. Global Comparisons and Historical Context

(33:26–37:41)

• The panel discusses Max Weber’s Protestant Ethic and global development, noting that prosperity gospel movements tend to bring economic volatility—a "bumpy ride"—as they spread to South America and Africa.

  "Countries that fall under the sway of a prosperity gospel kind of mentality are in for a lot of bumpy rides, a lot of bubbles, a lot of recessions." (37:26–37:41)

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• Chris Lehmann:

  "Religion is this very powerful irrational force that...determines a great deal, especially in the United States, about the way we think about moral values, how society should be organized, and the economy." (03:55–04:20)

• On Prosperity Gospel:

  "You give money as an act of what's called seed faith. You plant a seed via your donation and God then allows you to prosper 100-fold." (18:10)

• On Market & Faith:

  "For believers, [facts] don’t matter...he says something that they believe should be true. And that's exactly how word-of-faith, prosperity preaching works." (24:01–24:37)

• On Debt and Trust:

  "Debt then becomes a sign of trustworthiness...and if you are able to organize debt, as Donald Trump does...it's not necessarily that you're shady." (26:41)

• On Global Expansion:

  "Countries that fall under the sway of a prosperity gospel kind of mentality are in for a lot of bumpy rides, a lot of bubbles, a lot of recessions." (37:26)

Notable and Lighthearted Moments

• [19:29] Cathy prompts Chris to do a Joel Osteen impression, sparking laughter at Osteen’s trademark sermon style.
• [19:38] The group jokes about "God giving you a parking space" in New York—a Seinfeldian moment.
• [29:22–29:40] The comparison of prosperity gospel thinking to Silicon Valley venture capitalism:

  "I kind of like God is venture capital...that is what Prosperity Gospel Peter Thiel's next to." (29:36–29:40)

Essential Segments & Timestamps

• Introduction to the “Money Cult”: 00:45–04:20
• Prosperity Gospel Explained: 10:08–14:45; 18:10
• American vs. European Religious Traditions: 15:07–18:36
• Televangelism, Mega-Churches & Market Logic: 19:00–22:09
• Debt, Faith, and Capitalism: 24:43–29:55
• Global and Historical Reflections: 33:26–37:41

Tone & Language

The discussion is witty, skeptical, and intellectually curious, blending dry humor and sharp cultural critique. The hosts and guest keep the tone conversational, accessible, and occasionally irreverent—matching their secular outlook as they analyze religion as a social and economic institution.

Final Thoughts

This “Godly Edition” of Slate Money offers an incisive, sometimes biting, but always informative look at how religion—particularly American Protestantism—has been intertwined with financial attitudes, behaviors, and structures. The conversation with Chris Lehmann shines a light on the prosperity gospel’s peculiar American logic, examines the evolving meaning of debt, and ponders the future interplay of faith and money both in the U.S. and globally.