Slate Money: The Jump Ship Edition (January 28, 2017)

Hosted by Felix Salmon (Infusion), Jordan Weissmann (Slate Moneybox), and Cathy O'Neil (author of "Weapons of Math Destruction")

Overview:

This episode centers on major shifts in trade policy under President Trump, specifically the death of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) and the uncertain future of NAFTA. The hosts debate the implications for global trade and the US economy, analyze recent banking scandals, and discuss the uncertain fate of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). The episode is also a significant moment for the podcast, as Cathy O’Neil announces she will be leaving Slate Money for Bloomberg View and to focus on her new company.

Key Discussion Points

1. The End of TPP and Trade Policy Under Trump

• TPP Recap & Demise: Overview of what TPP was, its significance (40% of global GDP), and why its end under Trump is not surprising ([01:07–02:41]).
  • "No one thought Donald Trump was going to turn around and sign TPP." — Jordan ([02:00])
• China's Alternative: Discussion of the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership as China’s answer to TPP, contrasting the significance of the two ([03:16–03:55]).
  • "This other trade deal is kind of bullshit. It’s a very minor thing. It's lowering some tariffs. It's not fundamentally restructuring anyone's economy the way TPP would have." — Jordan ([03:36])
• Impact and Overstated Hype: Felix argues that all these trade deals do at this stage is tinker at the margins, not rewrite the global rules ([03:55–04:53]).
  • "We have a world which to all intents and purposes kind of has free trade already. And all of these agreements are twiddling around…" — Felix ([04:13])
  • Jordan counters, highlighting non-tariff issues (ISD tribunals, IP for pharma) that affect business significantly ([04:53])
• NAFTA’s Precarious Status: Deep dive into Trump’s threats to NAFTA and the hugely complicated supply chains it supports across North America ([05:24–07:48]).
  • Real-world challenges of unraveling NAFTA compared to Brexit ([07:12–07:48])
  • "The supply chain just goes back and forth over the border… It’s just hard to wrap your mind around." — Jordan ([07:19])
• Multilateral vs. Bilateral Deals: Trump’s push for one-on-one trade deals and why the hosts see this as impractical and damaging ([08:43–11:28]).
  • Jordan explains why multilateral deals allow for better compromise: “It’s sort of like a three-way trade in the NBA.” ([10:20])
  • Bilateral deals increase complexity for businesses and reduce opportunities for trade-offs among nations

2. Banking Scandals and Consumer Protection

• CFPB’s Last Stand: The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) is racing to settle cases (e.g., Citigroup mortgage “runaround”) before possible defunding by the GOP-led Congress ([12:24–13:52]).
  • Cathy shares the personal resonance: "I can't tell you how many emails I got about this... CFPB finally nailed Citigroup on doing exactly this…” ([13:19])
• Wells Fargo & Mortgage Fees: The episode highlights new revelations (ProPublica) about Wells Fargo charging customers unfair mortgage extension fees by blaming paperwork delays on them ([14:12–16:16]).
  • Jordan notes: "Wells Fargo was doing was they had these horribly understaffed offices... instead of saying 'our bad', they found ways to blame it on the customer." ([14:38])
• Systemic Incentives & Ethics: Direct incentives for bank managers to shift costs to customers—an approach perhaps not strictly illegal but “skeevy and nasty” ([15:22–16:55]).
• Regulatory Threats: Discussion about Republican ideology, campaign donations, and their joint attack on the CFPB, plus the banking/credit transparency landscape ([18:12–21:35]).
  • "Transparency is not the friend of banking profits." — Jordan ([20:37])
  • Cathy laments the potential loss of the CFPB: "It's a big one. I will be sorry when the CFPB is gone." ([21:47])

3. Cathy O'Neil's Departure and Reflections on Quitting

• Cathy’s News: She announces she’s leaving Slate Money to focus on her Bloomberg View column and new company (ORCA: O'Neil Risk Consulting and Algorithmic Auditing) ([22:46–23:51]).
  • "It was exhausting to think about having that many opinions, like, per week. That's a lot of opinions to have…” — Cathy ([23:24])
• On Quitting and Professional Evolution: Candid conversation about quitting jobs and why it’s a marker of strength rather than failure ([25:01–25:29]).
  • "I'm really good at quitting things. I'm like a professional quitter… I'm a very episodic person." — Cathy ([25:01])
  • Felix: "The quit rate nationally is a sign of economic health. The more people quitting their jobs is a sign that things are going well." ([25:29])
• The ORCA Venture: Cathy discusses starting her risk auditing consultancy, the challenges of building a business reliant on regulation in a deregulatory era, and the humor in potentially being “aqua-hired” ([26:36–27:58])

4. Advice, Reflections, and Looking Ahead

• Advice for Successors: Cathy offers wisdom for the show’s future, notably: “You have to interrupt men a lot. Stand firm.” ([28:49–29:01])
• Reflection on the value of the show: deep dives into topics, privilege of meeting brilliant guests, and the reward of intellectual engagement ([29:31–30:23])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the complexity of ending NAFTA:
  "I can't even imagine that world… how you would unravel this giant deal that governs every part of the supply chain." — Union official via Jordan ([06:38])
• On multilateral vs. bilateral deals:
  "A deal between the group does make sense because there are all compensating factors. So… if you restrict trades to be two-way, there’s actually fewer opportunities." — Jordan ([10:37])
• On CFPB’s importance:
  "Transparency is not the friend of banking profits." — Jordan ([20:37])
• Cathy on quitting:
  "I'm a very episodic person. ... I think I could sum up what you just said ... by saying I'm really good at quitting things. I'm like a professional quitter." — Cathy ([25:01])
• Felix on economic optimism:
  _"The quit rate nationally is a sign of economic health. The more people quitting their jobs is a sign that things are going well." — Felix ([25:29])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:07–02:41] — TPP overview, demise under Trump, global impact
• [03:16–04:53] — China’s trade deal, scope, TPP vs. RCEP
• [05:24–07:48] — NAFTA’s real-world complexity, supply chains, Trump’s threats
• [08:43–11:28] — Bilateral vs. multilateral trade deals; the Trump approach
• [12:24–13:52] — CFPB settlements, Citigroup, mortgage paperwork scandal
• [14:12–16:16] — Wells Fargo mortgage fee scandal
• [18:12–21:35] — CFPB under threat, regulation politics
• [22:46–23:51] — Cathy O’Neil announces departure
• [25:01–25:29] — Reflections on quitting as economic signal
• [28:49–29:01] — Cathy’s departing advice
• [29:31–30:23] — What Slate Money meant to Cathy

Numbers Round Highlights

• Cathy: 3.3% — Decline in women’s workforce participation since 1999; explored gendered reasons for exit ([31:50–33:00])
  • "The article should have been titled: Women don't quit, they just stop getting paid." — Cathy ([33:00])
• Jordan: 500 — Years of wealth inequality data; only major events (Black Death, WWI) reduced inequality ([33:02–33:50])
• Felix: 5,000 — Gbps “throughput” of Amazon’s physical data truck; moving petabyte-scale data is fastest by road, not internet ([33:50–35:36])

Conclusion

This episode delivers substantive analysis on trade, banking, and consumer protection, balanced with humor and candor—especially during Cathy O’Neil’s thoughtful announcement about her future. The panel’s dynamic, with a focus on real-world impacts and the value of independent thought (and even quitting), gives listeners both serious insight and a glimpse into the show’s unique chemistry as it enters a new chapter.

For Next Steps

Listeners are encouraged to suggest female, finance-savvy, opinionated Brooklynites to fill Cathy’s seat and to reflect on the value of challenging the status quo—be it in trade, finance, regulation, or personal career paths.