Slate Money: “The Win-Win Edition” (October 13, 2018)

Overview

In this episode of Slate Money, host Felix Salmon is joined by regulars Anna Szymanski and Emily Peck, along with special guest Anand Giridharadas, author of Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World. The conversation centers on Giridharadas’s critique of elite-led social change and the contradictions inherent in “win-win” approaches to philanthropy and social responsibility. The hosts also discuss breaking news: the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi by the Saudi regime, and the reaction of the global business elite — followed by a discussion of the new IPCC climate report and the recurring failure of both business and government to confront existential threats. The show closes with the traditional “Numbers Round.”

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Anand Giridharadas & His Book

[00:30–08:50]
Anand explains the premise of Winners Take All: that today’s elites often portray themselves as benevolent agents of change, but their “generosity” and do-goodism often protects and perpetuates the very systems from which they benefit.
- “These same rich people being predators...they build, maintain, and uphold an economic system that...siphons almost all of the gains from progress upward to them.” (Anand Giridharadas, [01:30])
Felix notes the book is genuinely challenging, not simply a “TL;DR” treatise (“This is one of those books which actually caused me to change my mind on a few things.” [03:01])

Notable Exchange

Goldman Sachs’ 10,000 Women Program
- Emily: Points out how companies trumpet initiatives (like Goldman’s program for women) even as their core practices remain exclusionary: “They don't even hire women to work at the bank.” ([03:41])
- Anand: “If that Goldman 10,000 Women program is part of an ecosystem that allows Goldman to keep being Goldman in its day job...then that making a difference becomes a kind of wingman of making a killing.” ([08:40])

2. The Dynamic Between Philanthropy & Harm

[08:51–10:57]
Felix challenges whether these “doing good” programs actually make harmful systems any worse, or merely serve as PR.
Anand responds with an example: the Goldman Sachs PR chief, before a negative NYT article, tried to pitch GS’s philanthropic work as a counterpoint—demonstrating that elite do-gooding is often reputational “cover” rather than structural change.
- “Bullet point number one: GS Gives is not in the story...the most important thing you can do is try to squeeze a philanthropic substory into the main story.” ([10:00])

3. Capitalism, Inequality, and the Role of the Elite

[11:01–15:28]
Anna Szymanski pushes back, arguing that, globally, capitalism and globalization have produced huge gains since the 1980s, though not evenly in the U.S.
Anand clarifies his book focuses on America, where: “The 1%...has cornered most of the benefits of the future. And the data is very clear that the bottom half of Americans basically haven't gotten a raise since 1979.” ([12:19])
- He points to lived experience: “Most Americans...experience correctly that this society feels rigged to them.” ([14:07])

4. Loss of the Public Sphere & Elite Secession

[16:25–18:59]
Emily highlights Giridharadas’s insight into how elites (and many others) have retreated from the public sphere, weakening community and civil society.
Anand: “One of the major shifts in a globalizing world is the possibility of elite secession...some people...have had the ability to...float up and out...and become part of this global mesh of talent and opportunities.” ([17:48])

5. The Saudi Situation & Global Elite Hypocrisy

[19:00–29:29]
The panel discusses the murder of Jamal Khashoggi and the flustered response of global elites invited to the Saudi “Davos in the Desert” investment conference.
- “As of this morning, we're still listed on the website...even everything we know, bonesaw and all, has not been sufficient for most people to disavow this.” (Anand, [22:15])
- Emily: “It just exposes...these companies want to have it both ways. They want to say, we do the right thing, period. And then they...do the wrong thing unless...called out.” ([23:16])
Giridharadas connects the episode to his book’s central thesis: elite companies substitute minor virtue for major structural change — and at times, simply for PR.

6. “Do No Harm,” Not “Change the World”

[29:00–30:05]
- Felix points to a tension: Anand’s call for CEOs to return Saudi money and boycott the conference could seem like a call for “virtuous” elite action.
- Anand clarifies: “What I am calling for is not the global elite coming together to do good. I'M calling for them to just stop doing harm...First, do no harm, and then let us as a public do the public good.” ([29:30])

7. The IPCC Climate Report: Existential Crisis and Public Inertia

[30:05–41:58]
The hosts turn to the alarming new UN climate change report, with Felix itemizing the colossal scale of future economic and human loss absent swift action.
Anand: “This is the first time in human history that we've managed to put the very status of the planet in peril through our actions....we have gotten ourselves to the precipice in Earth time of undoing this whole thing. And that's insane.” ([31:30])
The problem: responsibility is diffused; even “conscious capitalists” like BlackRock's Larry Fink talk sustainability while buying more Exxon shares ([33:30]).
The media and NGOs focus on small actions (buying smart appliances), while political solutions (“We need $100–200/ton carbon taxes at minimum!” – Felix, [35:59]) are ignored or blocked.
Anand calls for reframing the task as inspiring and collective, akin to a moon landing or WWII: “This could be really exciting! ... This is a challenge on that scale.” ([37:54])
- “We have to make this personal for people;...help them migrate psychologically... Mismanaged by those who understand it primarily as a data and policy problem.” ([40:13])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Making a difference becomes a kind of wingman of making a killing.”
– Anand Giridharadas ([08:40])
“Most Americans...experience correctly that this society feels rigged to them.”
– Anand ([14:07])
“One of the major shifts in a globalizing world is the possibility of elite secession.”
– Anand ([17:48])
“It just exposes...these companies want to have it both ways. They want to say, we do the right thing, period. And then they...do the wrong thing unless they're publicly called out.”
– Emily Peck ([23:16])
“First, do no harm, and then let us as a public do the public good.”
– Anand ([29:30])
“This is the first time in human history that we’ve managed to put the very status of the planet in peril through our actions.”
– Anand ([31:30])
“We are all involved in a validation of phony change agents that is a part of the story of why issues like this get as bad as they do.”
– Anand ([34:48])
“This could be really exciting...this is a challenge on [the World War II] scale.”
– Anand ([37:54])

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:30] – Anand introduces Winners Take All
[08:40] – The “wingman of making a killing” argument
[10:00] – Goldman Sachs’ PR playbook
[12:19] – U.S. wage stagnation and elite cornering of prosperity
[17:48] – “Elite secession” and the loss of shared public spaces
[22:15] – Business elites slow to renounce Khashoggi murder
[29:30] – Anand's “do no harm” challenge to business
[31:30] – The existential threat of climate change
[37:54] – Framing climate change as an opportunity
[40:10] – The need for personal, localized climate messaging

Numbers Round

[42:11] Anand: 82% – Of all new wealth in 2017 went to the top 1%.
[42:51] Felix: $85 – How much the World Food Program gets if you buy an $850 Balenciaga fanny pack; the rest goes to Balenciaga.
[43:44] Emily: $1.4 billion – Valuation of Silicon Valley shoe company Allbirds.
[44:55] Anna S.: 13 – Pakistan’s 13th IMF bailout, reflecting issues with Chinese debt and the Belt and Road Initiative.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a cogent critique of the idea that the world’s elites can “change the world” through selective, self-serving social interventions while perpetuating the systems that generate harm and inequality. The hosts connect these ideas to ongoing news: elite hypocrisy in reaction to the Khashoggi killing, governmental abdication in Saudi relations, and the deep collective action failures behind climate change. Anand Giridharadas argues for a shift away from private virtue-signaling and toward genuine public power — demanding not just “good works” from powerful actors, but a halt to the harm they cause.

Slate Money: “The Win-Win Edition” (October 13, 2018)

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Anand Giridharadas & His Book

[00:30–08:50]
Anand explains the premise of Winners Take All: that today’s elites often portray themselves as benevolent agents of change, but their “generosity” and do-goodism often protects and perpetuates the very systems from which they benefit.
- “These same rich people being predators...they build, maintain, and uphold an economic system that...siphons almost all of the gains from progress upward to them.” (Anand Giridharadas, [01:30])
Felix notes the book is genuinely challenging, not simply a “TL;DR” treatise (“This is one of those books which actually caused me to change my mind on a few things.” [03:01])

Notable Exchange

Goldman Sachs’ 10,000 Women Program
- Emily: Points out how companies trumpet initiatives (like Goldman’s program for women) even as their core practices remain exclusionary: “They don't even hire women to work at the bank.” ([03:41])
- Anand: “If that Goldman 10,000 Women program is part of an ecosystem that allows Goldman to keep being Goldman in its day job...then that making a difference becomes a kind of wingman of making a killing.” ([08:40])

2. The Dynamic Between Philanthropy & Harm

[08:51–10:57]
Felix challenges whether these “doing good” programs actually make harmful systems any worse, or merely serve as PR.
Anand responds with an example: the Goldman Sachs PR chief, before a negative NYT article, tried to pitch GS’s philanthropic work as a counterpoint—demonstrating that elite do-gooding is often reputational “cover” rather than structural change.
- “Bullet point number one: GS Gives is not in the story...the most important thing you can do is try to squeeze a philanthropic substory into the main story.” ([10:00])

3. Capitalism, Inequality, and the Role of the Elite

[11:01–15:28]
Anna Szymanski pushes back, arguing that, globally, capitalism and globalization have produced huge gains since the 1980s, though not evenly in the U.S.
Anand clarifies his book focuses on America, where: “The 1%...has cornered most of the benefits of the future. And the data is very clear that the bottom half of Americans basically haven't gotten a raise since 1979.” ([12:19])
- He points to lived experience: “Most Americans...experience correctly that this society feels rigged to them.” ([14:07])

4. Loss of the Public Sphere & Elite Secession

[16:25–18:59]
Emily highlights Giridharadas’s insight into how elites (and many others) have retreated from the public sphere, weakening community and civil society.
Anand: “One of the major shifts in a globalizing world is the possibility of elite secession...some people...have had the ability to...float up and out...and become part of this global mesh of talent and opportunities.” ([17:48])

5. The Saudi Situation & Global Elite Hypocrisy

[19:00–29:29]
The panel discusses the murder of Jamal Khashoggi and the flustered response of global elites invited to the Saudi “Davos in the Desert” investment conference.
- “As of this morning, we're still listed on the website...even everything we know, bonesaw and all, has not been sufficient for most people to disavow this.” (Anand, [22:15])
- Emily: “It just exposes...these companies want to have it both ways. They want to say, we do the right thing, period. And then they...do the wrong thing unless...called out.” ([23:16])
Giridharadas connects the episode to his book’s central thesis: elite companies substitute minor virtue for major structural change — and at times, simply for PR.

6. “Do No Harm,” Not “Change the World”

[29:00–30:05]
- Felix points to a tension: Anand’s call for CEOs to return Saudi money and boycott the conference could seem like a call for “virtuous” elite action.
- Anand clarifies: “What I am calling for is not the global elite coming together to do good. I'M calling for them to just stop doing harm...First, do no harm, and then let us as a public do the public good.” ([29:30])

7. The IPCC Climate Report: Existential Crisis and Public Inertia

[30:05–41:58]
The hosts turn to the alarming new UN climate change report, with Felix itemizing the colossal scale of future economic and human loss absent swift action.
Anand: “This is the first time in human history that we've managed to put the very status of the planet in peril through our actions....we have gotten ourselves to the precipice in Earth time of undoing this whole thing. And that's insane.” ([31:30])
The problem: responsibility is diffused; even “conscious capitalists” like BlackRock's Larry Fink talk sustainability while buying more Exxon shares ([33:30]).
The media and NGOs focus on small actions (buying smart appliances), while political solutions (“We need $100–200/ton carbon taxes at minimum!” – Felix, [35:59]) are ignored or blocked.
Anand calls for reframing the task as inspiring and collective, akin to a moon landing or WWII: “This could be really exciting! ... This is a challenge on that scale.” ([37:54])
- “We have to make this personal for people;...help them migrate psychologically... Mismanaged by those who understand it primarily as a data and policy problem.” ([40:13])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Making a difference becomes a kind of wingman of making a killing.”
– Anand Giridharadas ([08:40])
“Most Americans...experience correctly that this society feels rigged to them.”
– Anand ([14:07])
“One of the major shifts in a globalizing world is the possibility of elite secession.”
– Anand ([17:48])
“It just exposes...these companies want to have it both ways. They want to say, we do the right thing, period. And then they...do the wrong thing unless they're publicly called out.”
– Emily Peck ([23:16])
“First, do no harm, and then let us as a public do the public good.”
– Anand ([29:30])
“This is the first time in human history that we’ve managed to put the very status of the planet in peril through our actions.”
– Anand ([31:30])
“We are all involved in a validation of phony change agents that is a part of the story of why issues like this get as bad as they do.”
– Anand ([34:48])
“This could be really exciting...this is a challenge on [the World War II] scale.”
– Anand ([37:54])

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:30] – Anand introduces Winners Take All
[08:40] – The “wingman of making a killing” argument
[10:00] – Goldman Sachs’ PR playbook
[12:19] – U.S. wage stagnation and elite cornering of prosperity
[17:48] – “Elite secession” and the loss of shared public spaces
[22:15] – Business elites slow to renounce Khashoggi murder
[29:30] – Anand's “do no harm” challenge to business
[31:30] – The existential threat of climate change
[37:54] – Framing climate change as an opportunity
[40:10] – The need for personal, localized climate messaging

Numbers Round

[42:11] Anand: 82% – Of all new wealth in 2017 went to the top 1%.
[42:51] Felix: $85 – How much the World Food Program gets if you buy an $850 Balenciaga fanny pack; the rest goes to Balenciaga.
[43:44] Emily: $1.4 billion – Valuation of Silicon Valley shoe company Allbirds.
[44:55] Anna S.: 13 – Pakistan’s 13th IMF bailout, reflecting issues with Chinese debt and the Belt and Road Initiative.

wavePod

The Win-Win Edition

Summary

Slate Money: “The Win-Win Edition” (October 13, 2018)

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Anand Giridharadas & His Book

Notable Exchange

2. The Dynamic Between Philanthropy & Harm

3. Capitalism, Inequality, and the Role of the Elite

4. Loss of the Public Sphere & Elite Secession

5. The Saudi Situation & Global Elite Hypocrisy

6. “Do No Harm,” Not “Change the World”

7. The IPCC Climate Report: Existential Crisis and Public Inertia

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Numbers Round

Final Thoughts

Transcript

Summary

Slate Money: “The Win-Win Edition” (October 13, 2018)

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Anand Giridharadas & His Book

Notable Exchange

2. The Dynamic Between Philanthropy & Harm

3. Capitalism, Inequality, and the Role of the Elite

4. Loss of the Public Sphere & Elite Secession

5. The Saudi Situation & Global Elite Hypocrisy

6. “Do No Harm,” Not “Change the World”

7. The IPCC Climate Report: Existential Crisis and Public Inertia

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Numbers Round

Final Thoughts