Slate Money – “What Even Is Money?”

Podcast: Slate Money
Host: Felix Salmon (Bloomberg)
Co-hosts: Elizabeth Spiers (New York Times), Emily Peck (Axios)
Date: October 11, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, the Slate Money team explores the provocative question: what even is money? They dig into three strange stories from the worlds of finance, art, and betting: the runaway rise of gold, the hyper-growth of prediction (betting) market Polymarket, and the eye-watering prices paid for Bob Ross paintings. The hosts challenge conventional wisdom about value, investment, speculation, and what drives people to spend—or risk—their money. The episode’s through-line is the blurring between “rational” markets and vibes or memes, making us question the very nature of money and investment in modern times.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Gold Rush: Why Is Gold So Expensive?

[02:41–21:35]

• Gold’s Persistent Allure

  • Gold recently surged above $4,000 an ounce, outperforming the S&P 500 over the last 25 years.
  • Felix admits past skepticism about gold bugs, but data shows "If you put X dollars of money into gold ... you would have more money now than if you put it into the S&P 500, substantially more money." (Felix, 03:36)
  • Gold is described as a “barbarous relic” with little intrinsic value yet remains a prized asset.

• Drivers: Central Banks & Retail Access

  • Central banks, especially China’s, have moved reserves into gold (as a non-dollar asset), affecting the global price.
  • Retail investors are now piling in, encouraged by ETFs making gold easy to access.
  • "It is now way, way easier to buy gold as an investment ... The rise of ETFs ... has made it a lot easier for retail investors to buy gold." (Felix, 12:50)
  • Costco gold bar sales are a tiny part of the story (“ignore that”) compared to ETF-driven demand.

• Changing Narratives & De-Dollarization

  • The media’s narrative has shifted: under Biden, China’s gold buying was linked to its own economic woes; under Trump, it's framed as a threat to the dollar’s reserve status.
  • Felix dismisses the idea of gold (or anything else) replacing the dollar as the reserve currency: “Gold is never going to replace the dollar. Bitcoin is never going to replace the dollar ... The dollar is the global reserve currency.” (Felix, 09:58)

• Retail FOMO and The Fallacy of Models

  • Ray Dalio’s quote about a 15% gold portfolio is explained (and dismissed): “It’s a very bad sort of ... at the point at which your models are saying, allocate 15% to gold, that’s probably the time to sell, rather than buy.” (Felix, 16:15)
  • The hosts note the cycle where good backward-looking returns justify ever-increasing allocation—right at the possible market top.

• Is Gold a Meme Asset?

  • “Gold in many ways is the ultimate meme…it is the meme to end all memes.” (Felix, 18:02)
  • The lasting appeal of gold, and even the recent spike in silver, is said to be driven more by psychology and vibes than fundamentals.

• Can Markets Defy Explanation?

  • “Sometimes there just is no reason. Even if you had omniscient, you know, insight ...there still is no causal reason why. Sometimes things just go vibes.” (Felix, 19:51)
  • Emily sums it up: “Narrative follows price. Something happens in the market and then we all race to make a story about it.” (Emily, 21:11)

2. Polymarket: Betting Meets ‘Investing’

[22:52–35:35]

• From $1B to $10B—In Two Months

  • Polymarket’s valuation has exploded following new investment from Intercontinental Exchange, owner of NYSE.
  • “Suddenly this thing has gone from being worth $1 billion to being worth $10 billion in the space of two months.” (Felix, 24:50)

• Legalization and Political Connections

  • Polymarket, once illegal, is now legal in the U.S. following the acquisition of a licensed exchange.
  • Connections: The CEO of ICE (which invested) is married to Trump official Kelly Loeffler; Donald Trump Jr. is an investor.

• What is Polymarket?

  • Prediction markets where people bet real money on the outcomes of events, from politics to sports.
  • Originally focused on political/societal events, but the bulk of betting is now sports. “The minute you start doing sports, it turns out people are much more interested in betting on sports than ... elections.” (Felix, 26:22)

• Why Is Sports Betting Moving Here?

  • Peer-to-peer structure means skilled bettors aren’t pushed out as with traditional “the house” bookies.
  • Tax treatment on winnings is more favorable on Polymarket than at sportsbooks.
  • “For tax reasons, it just makes all the sense in the world for sports betting to move from sportsbooks to prediction markets.” (Felix, 28:19)

• What’s the Bet? Is This Gambling or Investing?

  • ICE (and others) are betting Polymarket and its ilk will “eat the entire sports betting industry.”
  • Hosts discuss whether the data is really saleable (“I don’t think it’s worth that much, honestly.” – Felix, 30:13)

• The Blurred Line: Gambling vs. Investing

  • Emily wonders if prediction markets are modern-day “bucket shops," recalling history with illegal market-betting venues.
  • Felix: “I don’t think there’s that much of a difference between bets and investments, to be honest, right now.”
  • “All the guardrails ... in the wake of ... 1929 and the Great Depression are now being dismantled. ... Now everyone’s like, just go ahead, do speculative gambling. Buy crypto, bet on the New York Yankees, do whatever you want. It’s all investment, it’s all yolo, it’s all memes. Just knock yourself out.” (Felix, 33:14)

3. Bob Ross Paintings: Investment, Consumption, or Charity?

[39:21–51:06]

• Why Are Bob Ross Paintings Selling for $100k+?

  • Recent auctions saw Bob Ross’s paintings reach six figures ($114,000 and $95,000), even though they're not considered "investment grade" art.
  • Felix, on the notion of investment: “What she [Julia Halperin] said was $500,000 ... below that, it's not investment grade.” (Felix, 43:03)
  • Buyers are likely motivated by nostalgia, consumption, or the charitable aspect (supporting public TV), not expectation of return.

• Is It Value, Scarcity, or Fun?

  • Elizabeth: “I don't think anybody who buys a Bob Ross painting is thinking of it as investment grade art. It strikes me as something more akin to buying an antique that has collector value because of nostalgia reasons.” (44:39)
  • Emily: “It's fun ... It's fun to buy collectibles ... just like a fun, happy little painting to buy, to get people chatting.” (45:16)

• Is a Charitable Auction Price the “Market Value”?

  • Flooding the market: One station preparing to auction off 30 Bob Ross paintings—supply may outstrip demand.
  • If an auction fetches a huge sum, does that set a real market price, or is it mainly a charitable donation?
  • “It becomes impossible to sort of disentangle these two things.” (Felix, 50:38)

• Peak Absurdity—Money as Meme

  • Conversation ends with Bob Ross paintings, NFTs (“the NFT for ‘Comedian’ ... the banana taped to the wall”), and concludes with existential confusion: “What even is money, you guys?” (Emily, 51:01)
  • Felix’s parting summary: “We have done the opposite of being an informative podcast. We have actually just made everyone dumb and no one knows thing at the end of this podcast. I apologize to you all. We will do better next week.” (Felix, 51:06)

Memorable Quotes

• On Gold as Meme:
  “Gold in many ways is the ultimate meme… it is the meme to end all memes. It is a meme that has been around for 4,000 years.”
  —Felix Salmon [18:02]

• On Narrative vs. Price:
  “Narrative follows price. Something happens in the market and then we all race to make a story about it.”
  —Emily Peck [21:11]

• On Investing vs. Betting:
  “There is no intrinsic value to gold. There is no future cash flows to gold … If gold is an investment… then, yeah, I find it really difficult to draw any kind of hard and fast line between betting and investment.”
  —Felix Salmon [35:35]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Gold’s meteoric rise, central banks & ETFs: [02:41–15:01]
• Retail investing, Ray Dalio & risk models: [10:41–17:06]
• The meme theory of gold, silver, and vibes: [18:02–21:35]
• Why Polymarket boomed, legality & business model: [22:52–29:59]
• Sports betting shifting to prediction markets: [26:05–29:59]
• Is betting investing? Market history, regulation: [31:19–35:35]
• Bob Ross paintings as a weird “asset class”: [39:21–51:06]

Tone and Takeaways

The tone is witty, skeptical, and often irreverent. The hosts repeatedly interrogate markets where prices are unhinged from any valuation fundamentals: gold as a memetic relic, betting as "investment," and Bob Ross paintings as objects of nostalgia and charity masquerading as art assets. They land (with bemusement) on the idea that much of what is called “investment” is little more than speculation—or even charity wrapped up as asset appreciation. In the world of money today, memes, vibes, and stories may be as powerful as math or fundamentals.

In summary:
This episode masterfully ties together the irrationality behind vaulting gold, speculative markets, and pop-culture collectibles, ultimately asking: when does something become money, or investment? Or is it all vibes? As Felix closes, maybe we know less about money now than when we started.