Slate Money – "Wood-Pulp-Based Media" (April 17, 2021)

Host: Felix Salmon (Axios)
Guests: Emily Peck, Michael Bierut (Pentagram designer)

Episode Theme: Trust in Money, Media, and Design

The episode explores the theme of trust as it relates to current financial news, vaccine passports, cryptocurrency, and the enduring appeal and function of print—"wood-pulp-based"—media. Legendary designer Michael Bierut joins for a lively discussion weaving together design, business, public health, and culture.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trust and Crypto: Coinbase IPO, Madoff, and Bitcoin

Segment starts @03:47

• Coinbase IPO: Coinbase’s public listing is discussed as a milestone for mainstreaming cryptocurrencies, making it a “proxy for the bitcoin economy.”

  “You can buy a company that is basically a proxy for the bitcoin economy.” — Felix Salmon [03:54]

• Madoff’s Legacy: The hosts examine whether Bernie Madoff’s spectacular fraud in the wake of the financial crisis set the stage for desires for “trustless” systems like Bitcoin.

  “I feel like that really kind of set the groundwork for people to be very receptive to Satoshi Nakamoto and bitcoin...” — Felix Salmon [04:16]

• Personal Betrayal vs. Systemic Risk: Bierut points out that the Madoff scandal’s impact was so profound because it felt like an intimate betrayal rather than an abstract risk.

  “It just seems like your spouse coming to you and saying they’re having an affair... It’s so fundamental.” — Michael Bierut [07:19]

• Perceived Risk in Crypto: The team debates whether people see bitcoin as safe or risky, unpacking the psychology of seeking returns in both cases.

• Brand and Trust: Platforms like Coinbase and Robinhood build trust through design, ease of use, and branding—mirroring how classical bank architecture once signified safety.

  “Ease of use creates trust. And because Robinhood is easy to use, people trust it, and that explains the growth.” — Felix Salmon [19:56]

• Digital Trust Markers: Visual consistency, intuitive design, and workflow in apps now serve as digital analogues to classical, physical signifiers of trust (e.g., Greco-Roman columns in bank facades).

2. Vaccine Passports: Trust, Privacy, and Equality

Segment starts @22:09

• Desire for Proof: Many vaccinated people want digital proof (a “vaccine passport”) to demonstrate their status in various settings.

  “They all feel…that they really want to be able to prove...that they’re vaxxed rather than just force people to trust them.” — Felix Salmon [22:32]

• Legal and Ethical Controversy: State-level pushback (e.g., Texas and Florida) against vaccine passports is framed as an outgrowth of American individualism and suspicion of federal mandates.

  “Anything that sort of smacks of the federal government...seems to just scare the wits out of certain people.” — Michael Bierut [24:01]

• Distinction Between Records and Passports: Emily Peck draws a line between vaccination records needed for congregate settings (schools, colleges) and the more ubiquitous, Israeli-style “passports” needed for everyday activities (restaurants, theaters).

  “You need to show in those specific circumstances that you’ve been vaccinated. But I don’t think we want to say...” — Emily Peck [26:55]

• Equity Concerns: Peck emphasizes the risk that vaccine passports could reinforce existing inequalities both in the US and globally.

  “Covid is already…reinforces inequality…If you then layer that on top…a passport…Like it? No, it's too much.” — Emily Peck [28:10]

• Tech Realities: Felix describes New York’s Excelsior Pass, a digital, QR-code-based platform for proof of vaccination, while Bierut contrasts its cold efficiency to the “cozy” charm of the CDC’s handwritten paper cards.

  “I have that delightful handwritten card…It was like the library card I got from my local library in Ohio.” — Michael Bierut [36:04]

3. Wood-Pulp-Based Media: Why We Love Print

Segment starts @40:51

• Sensory and Ritual Value of Print: Both Bierut and the hosts articulate the unique pleasures and rituals associated with print media—its tactile presence, flexibility, and the act of leafing through ads or unexpected articles.

  “The main thing with wood pulp based media…is the degree to which reading them is only one of many ways you can feel your experiencing…that piece of media.” — Michael Bierut [42:13]

  “The pleasure of reading it is the pleasure of consuming the advertising that is just something that does not exist online with the possible exception of Instagram.” — Felix Salmon [46:07]

• Online Media as a Different Ballgame: Peck notes that online, the exploratory, serendipitous aspect of print is lost. Online reading is driven by headlines and clicky content rather than discovery.

• Cadence and Brand Experience: The arrival of a magazine or recurring newsletter (Substack, Axios) fosters a ritual, anticipation, and brand relationship much like traditional periodicals.

  “If you open up the newsletter in the morning, it really presents itself in a way you really know how to work it.” — Michael Bierut [48:50]

• Instagram as the Closest Digital Ad Platform: While Instagram has cracked digital advertising and branding for products (especially women's goods), it hasn't replicated the “higher up the funnel” branding or the immersive brand experience of print magazines.

  “Instagram has obviously proved itself to be incredibly powerful at selling goods to women in particular…To what degree is it good at higher up in the funnel?” — Felix Salmon [51:45]

• Loss of Branding with Streaming: The migration from physical media (albums, print) to platforms (Spotify, digital mags) means both branding and the experience of “boring bits” are lost, favoring highlights and algorithmic recommendations instead.

  “Online everything is the front page, everything is the non boring bits. But you lose something…” — Emily Peck [56:36]

  “There are songs which I love…on Spotify…I'm like, I love this song. I have no idea who it’s by.” — Felix Salmon [57:07]

4. Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• On Digital Trust:
  “Ease of use creates trust. And because Robinhood is easy to use, people trust it, and that explains the growth.” — Felix Salmon [19:56]

• On Print Media Rituals:
  “If you subscribe to the New Yorker, you get it once a week…it's this promise that you'll get it every week and you'll kind of flip through the pages and you'll discover…That's not the only thing the New Yorker is for.” — Michael Bierut [42:27]

• On Vaccine Passports and Design:
  “There's just something about that handwritten card that people, to a surprising and actually dangerous degree, keep displaying on their Instagram feeds…” — Michael Bierut [37:55]

• On Branding and Digital Platforms:
  “If you're trying to come up with a distinctive brand presence on Instagram, you have that square shape…But it's all happening within this very confined space.” — Michael Bierut [52:21]

• Jeopardy! Logo Fumble:
  The episode ends with a humorous anecdote from Bierut about a Final Jeopardy question on logos—all three contestants missed the answer “I ♥ NY” (designed by Milton Glaser):

  “In wagering in the aggregate, $25,201 they had expended, $21,201 more dollars than Milton Glaser was actually paid for doing that logo, which he did pro bono.” — Michael Bierut [64:33]

Segment Timestamps

• Coinbase, Crypto, Madoff: 03:47–22:09
• Vaccine Passports/Trust: 22:09–40:51
• Wood-Pulp-Based Media: 40:51–58:38
• Numbers Round & Jeopardy Anecdote: 58:38–65:23

Numbers Round – Quick Hits

• Emily’s Number: $29,000 (median Amazon worker pay) [58:38]
• Felix’s Number: 107% (Qantas domestic flight capacity compared to pre-Covid) [60:02]
• Michael’s Number: $25,201 (aggregate Jeopardy! contestant loss for missing the “I ♥ NY” logo) [62:22]

Tone & Style

Conversational, intelligent, and humorous. The exchange zips effortlessly from finance to design, public health, and media ethics, enlivened by vivid anecdotes and Michael Bierut’s designerly perspective.

For Listeners:

This episode offers an insightful, often witty analysis of how we build trust in the digital age—from cryptocurrencies and health records to news consumption and branding. It’s a must-listen (and summary!) for anyone interested in the crossroads of finance, tech, media, and design.