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- [00:00]
A
I featured you in my book Career Cheat Codes. Your cheat code. Ever notice how some people seem to magically connect with industry titans while you're still waiting for a reply? It's not magic, it's math. Avni Barman has created a wildly successful network of empire builders using a ridiculously simple tactic. Most people are too lazy or intimidated to try the two minute morning outreach.
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B
Oh my God. LinkedIn for me is my best platform.
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A
Really? Tell me more.
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B
I'm clocking like 40 million views a month for.
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A
Holy shit. 40 million how? Wow. Wow. What are you doing? My boss who sexually harassed me got named Top Voice. Are you this year? And I was like, yeah, it was like on the news article.
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B
I was like, most people would be too shy or afraid to say it, but I'm willing to say it because I don't have any like fear of needing to go back. But the stuff that I'm saying is very relatable and very true. So then it'll get like mass appeal. It'll get millions of views. I cannot walk for five minutes in Manhattan without getting stopped by a stranger. You become memorable and there's a brand identity that's associated with it. It creates this subconscious memorability that they're not even going to realize, but they're going to recognize you faster. And so the next time an opportunity comes up, you're going to be the one that's top of mind. You're going to be the one they think of.
- [01:14]
A
Welcome to Built in Public. I am your host, Courtney Johnson. I've been a full time content creator and a personal brand strategist for seven years and I really built my career sharing the process, not just the outcomes of personal brand. Built in Public is about what it actually looks like to build a brand, a business, and build real leverage in the creator economy. We're talking strategy, systems, audience growth, monetization and that uncomfortable middle ground between. I have an idea and this is actually working. I'll be sharing what I'm testing, what's working, what's not. And I'm going to be bringing on people who are building their careers and companies out loud too. If you want honest conversations, practical insight and zero bs, you are in the right place. Let's build in public. Okay, Abni, I have a gift for you. Okay guys, so I've been waiting for this. First of all, I'm so excited we get a do over because we did like a virtual podcast and literally there's like a leak in my house and I had to go to a Loud ass coffee shop and I forgot my headphones and it was so hard to interview you and hear you and this is our relationship.
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B
But you still posted it?
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A
Of course. I'm not gonna waste the content.
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B
I'm obsessed. I love that.
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A
Oh, yeah. I don't care if like the microphones don't work or like whatever happens, I'm posting it.
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B
You gotta put your stuff out there.
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A
I'm not gonna waste like an hour of my life. Okay, so I featured you in my book Career Cheat Codes. And I want to read your cheat code as I think it is just so freaking good. And we talk all about cheat codes.
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B
Okay?
- [02:41]
A
So your cheat code. Ever notice how some people seem to magically connect with industry titans while you're still waiting for a reply? It's not magic, it's math. Avni Barman has created a wildly successful network of empire builders using a ridiculously simple tactic most people are too lazy or intimidated to try. The two minute morning outreach. And it goes into the outreach. I'm gonna have you explain it in a second. But it says your secret is in the consistency of the habit itself. Here's how the math works in your favor. You're taking two minutes every morning to research one person sending them a message they can read in 30 seconds. Most people are gonna ignore you, but by the end of the year, you're gonna have 365 messages and the probability of zero. Zero responses reaches zero very quickly. Just one meaningful response can change anything. Anyways, this is a whole chapter you guys will read in Career Cheat Codes. But I want first to give you this book.
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B
Thank you. This is like the biggest honor I've never been featured in a book.
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A
So exciting. Big milestone.
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B
This might even be cooler than like anything that anyone's featured me on because this is, this is permanent. It's going to permanently permanent. Forever on my mantel. Forever. I'm going to like literally one day show my grandkids and be like, look, I've been a book and you're gonna
- [03:51]
A
write a book too.
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B
Yeah, I didn't even think about that actually. So I would be very curious to wonder what your experience was writing this. Because a lot of people actually asked me to write a book. I'm like, I don't literally. What would I even talk about? There's like infinite things I could say.
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A
Well, it's like your post turn into the book.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, like when I got the email that Penguin Random House wanted to pick up my content series into a book, they're just like we just like the content, like put the content into a book. And so I actually got like a content focused book coach that helps you look through all of your content. And as I was making the outline for my book, she's like, this podcast episode will go in this chapter, this Instagram post will go in this subchapter. And she like, helped me outline it. When I went down to write, I didn't have to come up with anything new. It was just documenting what I had already created.
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B
I'm so obsessed.
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A
So you can do that.
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B
I think I'm gonna have to do that one day.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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B
Because I do that. I just admire you so much for this. And I will say, like, you summarized my cheat code way better than I never summarized it. It's so good. I love that.
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A
Yeah, tell me, tell me about the cheat code.
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B
It's funny because this came out of like, just like pure survival. When I was in college, I was in this program called the Ivan Young Academy. And it was effectively this entrepreneurial program. Four years, no rigid curriculum, no rigid exams. And so it was very much about like these lemonade stand businesses we were building with our peers in this program. Truly the dream. Amazing. Not something recruiters understand.
- [05:18]
A
So wait, in college you didn't have the traditional, like go to class, take exams. It was like start a business.
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B
It was like this garage maker space and it was a degree in art, technology and business. And effectively, the idea was it was started by Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre. Their idea was the next generation of entrepreneurs sit at the intersection of these three disciplines and so learn all three and learn how they work together and build a lot of businesses. And that's the best way that you can be an entrepreneur. Very untraditional. In fact, the curriculum today is actually a lot more defined because they realize that it's a little too much ambiguity for like a 19 year old kid. I thrive in ambiguity. So it was an incredible learning environment for me and I truly attest so much of who I am today because of that. But it just, it wasn't something that recruiters understood. And at the end of the day, like, I had this fat six figure student loan, like, I needed to like make adult money and like figure that shit out. Like, I couldn't just immediately go be an entrepreneur. So out of survival of like trying to navigate that, I was like, I need to get a job. I'm not going to get it the normal way. I need to figure out a creative way to do it. So I started the two minute cold Outreach every single morning. And what I realized very quickly was at some point like someone's going to respond because once you've reached out to thousands of people, someone's going to make the mistake of seeing it and feel bad for you and just be like, you know what, I will help this girl out. Because you know, you have to just believe and understand that like human beings are kind and just even if you go in like a little bit deeper into that, the people who respond are also people who are going to seek value from you. Right. So even though I was just like a college kid, maybe I ended up reaching out to someone who was actively looking for interns. Interns or when I was applying to people for full time positions, for all I know they were getting, they're pocketing 10, 15k if like I got hired. So it was a message they were looking for. So I think the mix of like believing in like humanness and kindness from people and also the likelihood of you eventually reaching someone who was looking for you and you can provide value back to them, that almost becomes guaranteed when you really bring the numbers game into play. So I was like, okay, how do I creatively reach massively large numbers when it comes to call messaging? Well, I was like, what if it's the first thing I do when I wake up? Instead of doom scrolling, I just pull out this little notes template of this 3 sentence cold message and I just do 2 people over time that'll get me to the number that I want. I swear to God, it did not take me more than two minutes. I literally was like rolling out of bed, brushing my teeth, sending these. And I think the key is in, in the consistency is actually not to over research the person and not to over customize it because then you'll kind of take away from the two minute routine aspect of it and what'll happen is over time you'll actually end up sending less. And so much of this game is actually just like output and so much less about it is like what you're sending them. People like probably don't even read more than the first four words is the truth. If they're going to respond, they're going to respond kind of regardless what you say at the end of that message.
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A
How are you choosing people to message and was it all on LinkedIn or like email?
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B
Totally depends on where that person is most active and what your goal is. So obviously during college it was very much about getting an internship, getting a job. So I was very much reaching out to people in the tech Industry broadly and recruiters. I say broadly because actually the recruiters were the least helpful because they get spammed the most. It was the random engineer on that team who no one reaches out to them, who turns out, eats lunch with the hiring manager every day because they're just homies from high school. And that's the referral that gets me in the door. You can't predict or know this stuff. So it was really just like anyone vaguely in the industry. Obviously, over time in my career, I've had different goals outside of looking for jobs. And so depending upon that goal. So today, I mean, what really is my goal? I don't really have actually a tactical goal of what I want. So I just actually cold message, just other successful women in the industry who I respect and admire. And half the time these people are my peers that actually become my good friends who I hang out with regularly. So I think it's not that deep. I think just because it's a habit and routine, I've just never dropped, I keep doing it regardless of what that is. But I think at every moment in your career, there's something that if it were to happen, it would change the trajectory of your career. It could be a money thing. It could be like your first customer. It could be whatever, a conference ticket that you could get that going to that conference could change your trajectory, whatever that is. I think if you, like, sit and think about it for one second, you'll know exactly what that is and focus your outreach on that until it happens and then you kind of move on to the next thing.
- [09:56]
A
Yeah, that's so powerful. I mean, it's just like you're not special enough for it to not work for you. Like, it is math. It's going to work. Somebody's going to respond. There's also so many people that their goal is mentorship. One of my mentors reached out and was like, actually, I reached out to him first. And then he was like, yeah, let's get coffee. He now mentors me for free. He's super successful. And I asked him why and he was like, well, I sold my business. I'm retired and I'm bored. And like, I want to mentor as many people as possible right now. And for some people, that's just their goal.
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B
When did you start posting on social media? Yeah, probably around three years ago. And I'd quit my job. And it wasn't almost until a year of quitting my job did I even make my first post. Really? Yeah. Like, I wasn't necessarily like, Bullish on this. And I still to this day like think I was pretty early to the personal brand thing, but I always kick myself and I'm like, but if I was earlier, right, like we all do that.
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A
What made you finally decide to start?
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B
So I built Genshi in college, actually my senior year. And I built it as these IRL conferences effectively. My thesis was if we expose more young women in STEM to entrepreneurship, we're more likely to have female become leaders and run companies. And that's actually the best way to create gender equitable cultures at these companies. Right. I don't think bottoms up, like hiring and recruiting was working out very well as the like little girly running through these big tech offices as the only one on the like something's wrong here. It's not like, doesn't really matter which money you put in the problem. Clearly it needs to be solved top down. So that was kind of the thesis. So I started with these huge conferences at Snapchat headquarters, Lyft headquarters, but I was one, running it as a nonprofit volunteer program. Two, like there wasn't even if it was a real business, there wasn't much like economics behind it being something sustainable. And so when I kind of was faced with the reality of I'm about to graduate, I have the student loan and I'm going to go find a job, I was like, okay, I'll do it on the side because it's really important. And it kind of went word about viral. So everyone was asking for it and I, I felt excited about the impact that I was making in the world. So I wanted to continue. But just six months into my job, pandemic happened which kind of crushed the IRL thing. And I ended up doing the 16, 000 person virtual conference. And these are paid seats by the way. So it was like objectively a massive thing. But I got so physically burnt out from it. Besides the fact that I was.
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A
How did you get 16,000 people?
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B
Don't even ask, dude. I don't think I slept for like six months during the pandemic. And I was also like locked in my room. So I wasn't even getting socialization or just like normal people things that could maybe like counteract the ridiculous.
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A
This is like a psychosis episode.
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B
No, truly.
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A
Okay, Truly perfect.
- [12:44]
B
I had to. And in fact, okay, random side tangent, but I think it's funny. I all my friends watch Gossip Girl in high school and I just thought it was the stupidest show then no clue why I love it today. But I think in the Moment I was like very confused by how these people on Gaza girl were like very underreacting to what I thought were like very overdramatic. Real life things like cheating on your husband, for example, they were just like, oh, whatever. In that moment I was like, I don't want to watch a show like that anyways. I was so burnt out from this on such a deep physical level, I had to binge watch Gossip Girls start to finish to literally numb my brain and get back into it. I love God's Girl now obviously, but that was like insane. So I eventually stopped doing that for obvious reasons. The fact that I was like under resourced and the fact that like the joy for it was very IRL for me. And that was gone. And it wasn't until a couple years later I had kind of like given this community a lot of resources to evangelize it in their own communities. We had over 100 Genji chapters around the world, so it was kind of like spreading on its own, literally like a virus. Which is the, the most, the highest signal you can get as an entrepreneur that like, this is something that like needs to be thought about more intentionally. And that's when I quit my job to really deeply think about like, okay, how do we actually solve this problem in a way that one, is sustainable and doesn't actually have geographic limitations or financial limitations, like actually can scale and two, doesn't screw myself over in the process. Like I can actually make a real living out of this. And like we have to acknowledge that the more money that I can make from this, the more impact I'll actually be able to make in the world as well. So when I quit my job, it was kind of like this mission to figure out like, okay, what does genshi need to be? Because it can't be conferences that did not work, can't be chapter program that doesn't make any money. And I did what I thought was the only reasonable thing to do to make money, which was I went and go build a tech startup. So I raised venture capital, I hired, build product, did the whole thing. And truly not even a couple months in, I had this like insane pit in my stomach where I was like, I actually hate my life. Oh my God, I just have another boss now. Like they're just called investors this time. And I didn't leave everything behind, literally do the thing against my family and friends, like look like an idiot in front of everyone, throwing this career behind, leave all the money behind to hate my life. So I overnight returned the money and shut it down and not at all willing to give up the dream of Jen Chi. But I was like it needs to be done something like a different way. And that is how I discovered social media.
- [15:26]
A
Wow. That's so powerful. In bold being like I'm giving the money back, I'm doing something totally different.
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B
It just felt so horrible.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I feel like when you truly leave everything behind and you're rock bottom, the last thing you want to do is do the thing that makes you feel even worse.
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A
Yeah, exactly.
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B
Yeah. Wow.
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A
Yeah. So you built a really solid audience. Did you ever feel cringe?
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B
Oh my God. Like every second of building Genshi has been just the maximum cringe. Also kind of random side note, but the like word she, the second half of my company name in itself has gone through massive evolution over the past eight years that Jen she's been alive. Like it was taboo to be gendered. Now it's like woke to be gendered. And so it's just like I've been around for so long like through every phase of this I've like stuck with deep conviction that this is the name of my company and this is my mission and I'm. No matter what, like the mission will I have to stay true to it. Which is for me the mission is eliminate all barriers for women to be at the top.
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A
And.
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B
And that that 100% includes financial barriers which is a big reason why everything that I give, I always give for free. It does not. It's not financially beneficial for me to give everything away for free. Like I have 20 plus downloadables and that are worth thousands of dollars. The amount of information that's in there and it's not. This is not ChatGPT information. This is like all the interview questions I got asked from all the top 10 big tech companies. It's like Rolodexes of my investor connects and literally emails and names like these are not things you can chatgpt. This is fully from my time in tech and everything that I've done kind of packaged in a way that other people can benefit from it. I could charge so much money for this. I don't. Because what I'm truly here to do is stay true to my mission because that's actually what makes me happy and I didn't leave everything behind to not do the thing that makes me happy and honestly just feel better about myself.
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A
Yeah. So your monetization right now is all through brand stuff. Okay, cool. Yeah.
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B
100 and people are always so surprised. I'll get the nasty comments all the Time like, you're just doing this to sell your course. And I always chuckle. I'm like, I literally. I'm like the last person who actually has a course.
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A
Yes.
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B
Like, it's actually just to help you. You're scamming yourself here by not taking the advice that I'm literally giving to you for free.
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A
Yeah, that's really, really silly. Yeah, even I have like a, like a LinkedIn cohort, but I tell people, like, you can sign up for my cohort if you want me to, like, one on one, help with you and guide you through this information. But you can also get all the information for free. You can go to all my digital products and watch my podcast about LinkedIn and you're gonna get the same information. Like, what you're paying for is not the information. The information is out there. It's free. What you're paying for is this information being applied to you in, like a coaching setting.
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B
I love that you're so transparent about that. And I bet that's like a big reason why they even join.
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A
Well, I'm like, there's no secret. There's no, like, oh, there's not like this, like, secret hack on LinkedIn that I'm hiding from everyone. But once you buy my course, I'll tell you, like, no, you can actually Google this stuff too. You know, like, that's not why people do it.
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B
And it's also not why people are successful. It's not because they have the information and someone else doesn't know. It's because they took the initiative.
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A
Yes, exactly. Like, that's the whole point.
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B
And it is okay to acknowledge you need a push or you need a mentor or a coach or someone to
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A
be your accountability partner.
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B
And I think, like, the fact that you're offering that is incredible. That's now an opportunity for someone who does need that to be able to jump in.
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A
Yeah, accountability, coaching, implementation. And also feedback. Like, being able to get feedback like, yes, you can go implement everything on your own, but to have an expert tell you, like, this actually is wrong. Do it this way, like, this isn't working is really helpful too. But yeah, I mean, I learned that from Gary V. He says, give a radical amount of value away for free. Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, you've done some, like, bold shit with brands. Like, didn't you fly to India being like, I'm gonna get sponsored and, like, run an event? And you didn't have an event until you got there.
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B
That's crazy. Well, I've been for a Long time trying to think about, like, what is my big North Star mission? What is the thing that gets me out of bed every single day? Obviously, Genshi. But I needed something, like, even bigger and bolder to root myself. And at some point when Genshi started taking. Taking off, and I was like, I think I want to go on tour, like, a big global tour. But I want to be sure about this. One, I want to be sure that there's demand here, but two, I want to be sure, like, do I actually really want to make this, like, my big North Star vision? So I was like, well, what if I go and I'm Indian, in case anyone on the podcast doesn't know. And I'd never been to India, so I didn't know anything about my own culture, my own country, and I've always wanted to go. So I felt like, what if I just go on tour there? It's the most forgiving country if I'm really just brutally honest. Because if everything goes to shit, I can easily pay for it, obviously. Two, like, that country doesn't have anything, right? So the bar is to the floor. Like, anything I do is going to be valued. Three, I want to do a trip anyway, selfishly, with my parents, and so I can kind of use this as a way to convince them to take me. Because they. I, like, literally was begging them to take me, and they were like, I don't want to go there, whatever. And.
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A
And now it's a business expense.
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B
And now it's business expense. Exactly. And so literally a week before, I didn't have an event, I didn't have a sponsor, I didn't have a plane ticket. And literally a week later, I was on tour with over, like, 4,000 people, literally winging what the heck I'm going to do on stage. The morning of, while getting my hair and makeup, everything came together insanely last second. And Microsoft came in literally the day before.
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A
Whoa.
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B
It was crazy.
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A
Were you pitching them? Like, how did that work?
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B
I was for sure that. That the one week I gave myself, and that was also a big thing. I was like, I don't want to give myself more than a week because this isn't the core part of my business. This is mostly just, like, something for me to experiment and explore. So I want to just give it that week. Whatever happens, happens. Like, no expectations, just want to simulate what it would feel like. So Microsoft literally came in, like, the day before. I'm not. It was, like, exhilarating. And the biggest lesson I learned from that was, number one, There is a massive demand. So when I had made some content around it, I had hundreds of people all over the world, in cities all across being like, bring it here, bring it here. I think that was, like, a huge, validating thing for me to be like, okay, this is something that, like, the world will benefit from. I'm not just randomly doing it. And then two, I can't explain, like, what I felt during it, but it made, like, everything that I want to do in my life become crystal clear to me. I'd felt this feeling that I felt like I'd been searching for my whole life. And it did feel pretty full circle to, like, the origination of Jen Chi, the in person, I think, that I keep harping on. And so feeling that level of euphoria and fulfillment and like, just like that full circle feeling made me willing to come back here and be like, I'll do whatever it takes to get there. Now I'm. Now I have conviction that that's the North Star, and literally whatever it takes. And I'll give you a small example, but I grew pretty fast, like, a couple months ago, and then this past couple months, I haven't been really growing as much. That's not on accident. Like, I kind of, at that point, reached this tipping point in my content journey. And by the way, I've been here for, like, years. It's not like this was, like, something that just happened to me overnight. Like, I've been refining my skills every single day. I kind of, like, nailed what my audience wants to see from me and what I'm uniquely good at doing, plus, like, how to make a great video. I kind of, like, reached that tipping point, and I'm like, 99.9% confident if my number one goal was to get to a million followers, I would be here by now. I'd be at a million. And it kind of was at the beginning of the year. I know if you saw this video I made of, like, my big goal is a million followers. And a couple weeks in, I actually completely changed that goal because I realized a million followers doesn't get you to tour. A million people who truly love you and would travel for you gets you to the tour. And that's very different type of content. You actually have to be vulnerable. Yeah. You actually have to share your story. You actually have to say the same things over and over again, even if they're not the most trendy or relevant, because you need to create, like, a consistent brand narrative. Right. Like, you know all these things. And I'm Kind of in the process, learning process of figuring out, okay, how do I do that? And I know for sure I'm going to reach another tipping point in this journey where all of that makes sense to me. And whatever. I'll get my million, but I'll get my million in the right way. The million that's going to get me to the thing that I want. And I don't think there's a correct thing to want. You can want the tour or the course or the brand. These are all amazing things. I'm not saying that this is the right way and this is wrong. It's just. It's just what I want for myself specifically.
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A
Yeah, there's not all followers and views are created equal. Like, I'm sure a lot of people ask you. They ask me this too. It's like, how do I go viral? And I'm like, I mean, I could tell you, but it's not gonna be helpful to your goals. Like, if you want to go viral right now, like, go on Google Trends, find something going on with the celebrity and like, say something kind of mean and controversial, and you'll go viral and you'll gain thousands. Guilty.
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B
Done that many times.
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A
I've done that before too. But like, is that, is that contributing to your goal right now? But I feel the same. Like, right, right now my goal is not growing followers. My goal is growing newsletters. It's growing sales. It's like creating my sales team. Right. Getting really qualified leads, nurturing people. So my main goals right now. And again, yes, you know how to do it. But it doesn't mean that going viral, like taking those steps to go viral is going to lead you. Because that's kind of like a cheap hit. Right? It's also not sustainable community.
- [25:37]
B
I will get more followers from a 50,000 video where I'm doing a get ready with me talking about my day than 3 million viewed video about Michelle Obama or Alex Earl or something like that. Because those people are watching for Michelle Obama and Alex Earl. They're not watching for me, but the 50,000 people watching my Get Ready with me, they're. What else could they be watching for if not for me? And so they're much more likely to convert as followers. And so right now, I'm not really chasing the views and chasing those. I'm not really chasing those views, but what I am chasing is those true followers. And so behind the scenes, the conversion is a lot higher. But because I don't have millions and millions of views on everything I touch, like, I Did that, that really massive growth period where I admit, I acknowledge a little naive. I was kind of growing because it was like the dopamine of growing was awesome. I was like, oh, I feel like I hit the jackpot. I know what to do. I'm going to just milk it. Yeah, it's been truly transformational in the sense of, like, the difference in the way the community has been showing up for me. But I have a really long way to go.
- [26:42]
A
Yeah, that's important to know too, that for our listeners, there's going to be ups and downs. It's not. I mean, it could be, but it's very rare that you're gonna have like a hockey stick for your entire content creation and personal brand building journey. There's gonna be periods where you're focused on other things. There's gonna be periods where you're growing really fast. Like, it's gonna be. You're gonna be riding a trend. It's gonna take off and you're gonna be able to ride that trend for like a month or two and then it's not gonna be a trend anymore and you're gonna pivot. Right. Like, you really can't keep doing the same thing. But yeah, it's important because just because you go through a growth spurt and you're not there anymore does not mean, like, something's wrong.
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B
Right. Every creator goes through that 100% and there's not one or two. There's like, there's like one every, like three months.
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A
No, literally. Literally. And it's depending on the platform too. It's like, maybe you're like really popping off on LinkedIn right now and then it'll be TikTok the next day and then Instagram.
- [27:39]
B
Yep. I'm like, trying to figure out how to make a YouTube video right now. It's painful. And so when people are like, we've made it. Sure. Instagram's one platform of like 10, and we don't own these platforms. We need to be platform agnostic and there's followers everywhere, so we gotta be everywhere. And it's pressure, but it's also, I think it's exciting. We always have something to level up on. If we feel like we have like a strong community one place. Well, we probably don't have it in another place.
- [28:07]
A
It's.
- [28:08]
B
It's cool to like, figure that out because every platform has its own unique rules.
- [28:11]
A
Yeah, I feel that way about TikTok. Like, TikTok was my biggest platform for so long and I realized, like, oh, shit, I I think it was like two years ago. I'm like, oh, shit. My whole platform is on TikTok. Like, I gotta start posting on other platforms just in case. Especially since TikTok is so volatile and it was like, is it gonna be banned? Is it not? So two years ago, I started posting on Instagram and ramping up my LinkedIn. I'm so happy I did because now TikTok is a little. It's not as reliable as other platforms. And also brands aren't sponsoring TikToks as much right now. So I'm really happy I diversified.
- [28:48]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God, don't even talk to me about TikTok. I'm like a mega flop on TikTok.
- [28:53]
A
Same. I feel the same.
- [28:54]
B
But, you know, I actually do think it's my secret weapon because I'm such a flop on there. I just shamelessly post like 10 videos a day. I don't get a. And I do think as someone who is like, very seen on the Internet and very much of a public person, and I almost see it as a. Like a respite from it. A place where I can truly be me without the pressure of it. And I think I personally need that a lot right now because I'm trying to kind of form into my more authentic self online, as I told you. I'm trying to think about more about, like, followers versus just virality and TikTok. Literally my like 500 views per video. It's like, very comforting.
- [29:36]
A
Yeah, no, same. I'm like, okay, that's fine. Also, it's happening to everyone. It's happening to everyone or everybody that's in, like, thought leadership, businessy space.
- [29:46]
B
Okay, yeah, okay. That everyone. Yeah. But if you're. If you're like a New York City fashion influencer.
- [29:51]
A
Yeah.
- [29:52]
B
You're getting like 500k views.
- [29:54]
A
Literally. Like, I don't think, like business this is. Which is fine because TikTok never really converted for me anyways. Like, the TikTok audience, I think it's just a lot younger. So I'll make way more sales on like, Instagram or LinkedIn than TikTok.
- [30:08]
B
Oh, my God. LinkedIn for me is my best platform.
- [30:11]
A
Really? Tell me more.
- [30:12]
B
I'm clocking like 40 million views a month.
- [30:16]
A
Holy shit. 40 million. Wow, wow, wow. What are you doing?
- [30:20]
B
Literally nothing special. I think one video content. So I'm 100% video. I don't really anymore.
- [30:27]
A
Oh, wow. No, like, text.
- [30:30]
B
I think it's like. I think it's like one. It's very unlikely. I'M going to, I'm going to copyright better than people who full time copyright and full time post on LinkedIn 2. I'm already making so much video content every single day. So I'm inherently operating at an advantage in the video pillar because most people are not spending their entire personalities and days on video. So every day I'm becoming 10 times better at video. So I'm just much more competitive in that lane. And I think the, the third thing is my content is naturally career focused, business focused. And so that's a great fit for LinkedIn. And I think I'm just down to say what I truly feel. I think most people still live with this 1% fear of like maybe one day I will go back and get a job. And for me I'd like literally rather
- [31:19]
A
die than get to the same way.
- [31:20]
B
No, there's no fear. Like if I want to talk about something about corporate, most people would be too shy or afraid to say it, but I'm willing to say it because I don't have any fear of needing to go back. But the stuff that I'm saying is very relatable and very true. So then it'll get mass appeal. It'll get millions of views. So yeah, it's kind of crazy. Probably on a weekly basis I have a hit or go 7 to 10 mils.
- [31:47]
A
Wow. That's wild.
- [31:49]
B
It is pretty wild. I'm like actually shocked that this is insane. And I think it's. It's also probably a big reason why I'm not top voice on LinkedIn because I speak my mind a little too much.
- [32:02]
A
Oh my God.
- [32:03]
B
Same.
- [32:03]
A
Also my boss who's actually harassed me got named top voice. Are you this year? And I was like, fuck you. Yeah, it was like on the news article, I was like, that just shows you what the fuck.
- [32:14]
B
These are just random accolades assigned by people. It is not proving of who you are. Yeah. And all these like badges and awards are truly the same. I would love to be top one voice one day. Maybe I will and maybe I won't. But I think that doesn't determine my value.
- [32:29]
A
Yeah.
- [32:29]
B
And doesn't determine my success or how much money I make or my impact on the world. And I'm literally saying this to keep myself accountable because I think I get very upset by this very often and I get deeply affected by watching people. Like, I get stuck in the comparison mindset, like really often. And that's something I'm trying to work on.
- [32:47]
A
Yeah. I am way too messy to be top voice. Like LinkedIn is never. I mean, I don't know.
- [32:52]
B
Actually, I don't know. I'm messy by design.
- [32:54]
A
I've done brand deals with them, so I guess they do endorse me, but
- [32:56]
B
no, no, they love it. Like LinkedIn as a platform loves it because you're doing what a social platform does, which is you are providing entertainment and you are providing value. That's all they want. I think it's more of like there are these certain badges that require you to be very buttoned up. Yes. And formal. And be these professional thought leaders. Which I think for some people it serves them, maybe it doesn't serve us. And I don't think there's also really a right or wrong answer here too. It's just, what is your personal goal? What do you want to do with the platform?
- [33:30]
A
I think a good way to get the LinkedIn top voice is doing the news stories.
- [33:34]
B
I've heard that.
- [33:35]
A
Yeah. Which if you. I don't know if it's been released by the time that you guys are listening to this, but listen to my episode with Gigi Robinson and she talks about how to do that. But yeah, back to LinkedIn video. Okay. So that's really good for our audience to understand because people ask me a lot about LinkedIn video and I'm like, I don't know, I do it sometimes. Don't really do it. So you're consistently putting out video. It's working. So for our audience, this is something that, from this conversation, I'm gonna go test, I'm gonna go put out some of my top TikTok videos, Instagram videos on LinkedIn, especially work related. And I think if you're listening to this, go test that out too. Cause if it's working for you, that's,
- [34:09]
B
that's really, really great. I'll say one thing, most of this time I've been posting two to three times a day. Really? Wow. Okay. I just move to one times a day and I'm basically a B testing the two months to see if I actually grow more, posting less. Because there's a theory that maybe they suppress the content every 24 hours. Okay, yeah, I found that's a theory. I don't know. I'm testing it personally.
- [34:33]
A
When I post once a day is when it performs best. But I think, you know, it could be different. But yeah, I mean, I also would assume, like the reason why video doesn't perform as well for me on LinkedIn is because I'm not doing it consistently. So they're not putting that into the video feed.
- [34:48]
B
So I'm sure that's related. Yeah, for sure.
- [34:51]
A
So I bet if I start doing it, at least do a test where I do like two weeks consistently everyday video. What do you do for the caption on the video or the copy?
- [34:59]
B
Yes. I was just told literally yesterday by someone who works at LinkedIn that I should make longer captions.
- [35:03]
A
Really? Okay.
- [35:04]
B
So I think whatever you would do in a text situation, make that your caption.
- [35:09]
A
Okay.
- [35:10]
B
So it is kind of double the work. Yes, I think double the reward.
- [35:14]
A
Okay, that's really good to know. And are you doing brand deals on LinkedIn?
- [35:17]
B
Yeah, so much.
- [35:18]
A
Okay. That's great.
- [35:19]
B
Like 50% of my income.
- [35:20]
A
Really?
- [35:21]
B
Wow.
- [35:22]
A
I do some brand deals on LinkedIn, but I feel like most of mine are still Instagram.
- [35:25]
B
I basically only do package deals with brands. And so you're really buying into my entire ecosystem. Ecosystem. Right. So if I'm working with you, we're visible on every platform. I'm probably shouting you out of my newsletter. I'm probably posting organically about you outside of the brand. Deal terms, for me, I would much rather have a couple partners that I would like really just shout on the rooftop, like actually things I use every single day than partner with a ton of brands that I may be loosely lose or don't care about. Because I have tested this theory out. I make way more money selling a massive package deal and I do way less work and I have way more trust with my community. So the truth is, I'm leaving
- [36:11]
A
probably
- [36:11]
B
60 to 70% of my potential income on the table. I say no to 90% of my inbound or brand deals because I want a very specific type of deal done, which is the terms that I told you. But I think I'm only losing a lot of money in the short term. I think I will gain this all back in more in the long term. Obviously that's a bet I'm making.
- [36:32]
A
Yeah, but like bet on yourself, right? That's exciting.
- [36:36]
B
I think I'm right.
- [36:37]
A
I actually just signed my first, like, I think it's like six months long. It's across webinar and newsletter and Instagram and LinkedIn and integration into my course. Like, it's really, really cool. So I'm really excited about that.
- [36:51]
B
Those 360 packages really are also what makes it most worthwhile for the brand. Yeah, like they don't realize it takes 13 touch points for someone to convert if they're. And they have to love it 13 times. So, like, if you're gonna do one off post. That's one touch point you're gonna get zero as a brand.
- [37:09]
A
Yeah.
- [37:10]
B
So I think brands, I think they focus a little bit too much on like diversifying and kind of putting their paw on everything. I think if they just focused more deeply on like a couple like creators that they are bullish over, I feel like these brands would get a lot more out of it.
- [37:27]
A
I agree.
- [37:28]
B
Especially in our world of B2B because these purchasing decisions are not like buying a top or like buying a shoe. It's like this is probably a purchasing decision that's going to impact my business over into the eternity until I stop subscribing to it.
- [37:44]
A
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I see so much higher conversion when it's like a multi channel thing. But something I've really loved doing with brands recently is webinars. Like doing a co branded webinar where I'm showing how I use their product and how that's integrated into some value I'm giving.
- [38:01]
B
That's so good.
- [38:01]
A
That's been really, really fun.
- [38:03]
B
Oh my God. I need to learn more about that from you.
- [38:04]
A
And it's a good add on because it can be like a 5 or 10 or 15k add on.
- [38:09]
B
Yeah, that's so good.
- [38:11]
A
And it's so fun. And you can easily get 500 1,000 people on a webinar and the conversion rate is just so high. And the, the brand is like, again, you're telling the brand, look, I got a thousand people on this webinar and I have their attention for an entire hour. And in this hour, like I'm enrolling them into your.
- [38:28]
B
They're getting way more out of that.
- [38:29]
A
Yeah. And the, the audience is getting way more out of it because you're teaching them.
- [38:33]
B
So genius. Do you pitch them this? Because I'm not having brands like come up with.
- [38:37]
A
No, nobody came up with that. No, no, I pitch them well, my team pitched them. But yeah, also like when we think about brand deals, we got to think about the brand side, what's going on. A lot of times it is a young person. They're maybe have a few years under their belt in the industry. They're running this campaign and maybe they are getting it approved by like a senior marketing director or like a cmo. That senior marketing director or a CMO doesn't always know what's best. Right. And that junior person that's pitching these campaigns, they just want to look good to their boss. So both of their goal, that junior person and the senior person is not necessarily to get the biggest ROI for the brand. It's what's going to look good that I don't have to explain and pitch to my boss and how am I going to make this as easy as possible. And like, that's how brands are thinking. They're not thinking. Like, if they were doing it through numbers, they would be sponsoring way more like email campaigns. They would be doing multichannel with a smaller amount of brands. Like, these things are proven to work better. But again, for a young person to have to bring that to their CMO and, and like, prove out the ROI of this. When the CMO heard at some conference they should get, you know, 20 influencers on this, you know, five.
- [39:49]
B
And they're doing it as their, like, last priority.
- [39:51]
A
No, exactly.
- [39:52]
B
Literally.
- [39:52]
A
So it's like we also have to think about when we're pitching the brand, like, who specifically in the organization we need to educate on this and what they're thinking. Right. Like, I just feel like we're behind.
- [40:03]
B
One thing I'm particularly excited about and I think one of the more recent motivations of growing a maker platform is I want to, like, truly be a thought leader for these CMOs because, hey, guys, I'm on the ground every single day with my audience. I know how to convert them. That's literally what I specialize in. I do that all day. And I do think there's a little bit of, a little bit of a. How do I describe it? Like, lack of respect, maybe for the influencer archetype. And I don't. Like, a good example is like an Alix Earl type. Like, she has an HBS case study written on her. She has a lot of respect from the right people because she's blown it out of the water with what she's done. If she, even when she was a super successful influencer, just not like, ridiculously the exception to the rule, I bet you she still wouldn't even have the respect that she has now. So I'm trying to think of it in the same way as like, how do I just blow it out of the water, completely defile all expectations here to then be able to gain that respect with CMOs and other companies who will then look to me for how they should run their campaigns. And I think if that can happen, I think the industry will just perform a lot better, period.
- [41:14]
A
Yeah, maybe you don't have a Harvard Business case study yet, but you did speak at Harvard Business School, right? How was it? How did you get that opportunity?
- [41:22]
B
It was actually insane. It was like, it's Been on my vision board for years. So when that happened, it was surreal. Like, I couldn't even believe it happening. And yes, I will have a case study one day that is on my next vision board, but for now, we're just gonna settle speaking. It was incredible because I think, like, it's. It's back to the irl, like, really getting to meet the students. These are people that I deeply admire and respect who are brilliant. They're building the companies that I want to invest in. So. And I actually have, like, a few leads from my time there of companies I'm actively considering investing in from the students, literally, that I spoke to. So that's super cool side thing that came out of it. But I just. I just felt like HBS as a concept is. It's phenomenal, but at the end of the day, like, they're learning business without truly being on the ground building the business.
- [42:11]
A
Yeah, they're learning business theory.
- [42:13]
B
Right. And if they want to go into, like, certain career types, it might make sense. But if you truly want to be an entrepreneur, like, you kind of have to be on the ground building stuff. And that was a lot of the focus of what I was speaking there, of how much I've learned and what I've learned from just being on the ground and learning real time. And also the importance of social media in the next generation of companies being successful. And so it was really cool to interact with them and kind of share my journey. And a lot of them, like, leaving, being like, you know what? Sure, I'm not gonna, like, drop out of hbs, but I'm actually start building my company now. I'm not gonna wait for myself to graduate and stuff like that.
- [42:48]
A
So that was also, like, start building the mvp, right? They want to build a software, like, I don't know, like, reviewing restaurants, like, can you just make a spreadsheet of the restaurants and share with your friends
- [42:58]
B
and, like, charge $5 for it?
- [43:00]
A
Like, what is the minimum viable product? And I think especially people like, in academia are like, it has to be so perfect, and I have to have all my numbers right, and it has to be, you know, proven out that this is gonna work and I need the right roadmap. And I spoke yesterday at Stanford, and a hesitancy I felt from a lot of the students is they wanted the right answer. They wanted, like, well, Courtney, should I do X or yes, like, in building my personal brand, right? And I'm like, I hate to tell you, but there is not a right answer. This is not a science. Like yes, there is some parts of it that's a science, but it's a science and an art.
- [43:37]
B
Yeah.
- [43:37]
A
So I can't give you the exact playbook that is going to be completely guaranteed. There is a level of like intuition and a level of artistry and a level of following your gut that comes with building a personal brand and building a business. And that is something that is really hard to teach to maybe like engineering minded or like academic minded people. And I think that's why someone like Alex Earle that went to like USF or something and like partied the whole time U Miami can, can be so successful because she's like, she's in it, she's following her gut, she's following her
- [44:15]
B
intuition and that's what she knows. Right. Like, no one could have handed me the triple split screen clone concept that basically got me like a couple hundred thousand followers overnight. Right. No one could have handed me that iconic thank you. And hundreds of people actually copied it the second I put it out there because they were seeing how viral was making it and none of them blew up overnight the way that I did. It's not because the triple split screen is the right answer for growth. It's like that was a unique thing that put together what I'm uniquely positioned to talk about. My unique experience growing up around whatever these certain types of wealthy people and observing them. Also I really went hardcore with the fashion. Like I had my stylist doing all three looks for every video. So I'm also operating on a completely different level in the new house that I have. And that's not the right answer. That was the right answer for me given my advantages, my story, what I felt excited about, the content to make. And at the end of the day there's going to be that perfect trifecta for you where that it's your trifecta of like what you, what niche perspective you have in the world, what, you know, what you're excited about, making content back that's also gonna blow up and go viral. And I think that's just, that's true for like anything and everything. Right? Like you can't tell someone the right answer, but you can tell them to do is like have the right pillars and philosophies in mind when they go and approach that. They don't get stuck in a hamster wheel. They actually move forward 1% every single day. Yeah, totally.
- [45:46]
A
Yeah. Something else that I noticed yesterday at Stanford is that a lot of these and I spoke to grad students so they're like md, Like JD candidates. It's crazy. And they still feel imposter syndrome.
- [45:57]
B
And these are, like, 30 under 30
- [45:58]
A
recipients that have, like, some of the smartest people in the world. So I'm curious if you saw that, too.
- [46:05]
B
Oh, my God. I think I was literally shaking in my boots. Like, I was not clogging their nervousness because I was so nervous. And I'm not nervous to talk to these students in that. In a traditional sense, but I'm more just like, I just want to make sure that I'm giving the most value in this moment, that I'm being the most helpful, and that I made sure I covered everything and was truly able to be authentic. But, yeah, I feel imposter syndrome, like, every waking breathing second. And it's because I. Maybe last year I was comparing myself to a certain type of person who maybe I don't compare myself to anymore, but now I'm comparing myself to someone else who's ahead of me. And there's always someone who's ahead of you. And. And right now I'm really deep in the B2B tech niche on content, and I've recently got more into, like, fashion, beauty, lifestyle. So now I'm, like, desperately looking at the girl who's at the front row of the Dior show, and I'm like, oh, my God, I would die to be there. And I'm so jealous of her and, like, blah, blah, blah. But she's not clocking 40 million views on LinkedIn. Exactly. It's like you just get stuck in this infinite loop of comparing yourself to someone else. But maybe the reason you don't have that is because you invested in something else that maybe they don't have. And I don't really actually know a solution to this because it's actually something I'm actively been working on. But I think the biggest thing that has helped me so far is just being more focused internally in myself. Okay, let's spend my. Let's create thought patterns, and let's tell myself a narrative that is intrinsically focused, where I'm the main character of the story. Okay, what am I going to do tomorrow morning when I wake up? What am I going to do this weekend with my friends? Or what am I going to do next month? What travel plans do I have? Versus being like, what is she doing next weekend? What is she doing at this conference? Is she going to that thing next month? So it's like, kind of removing the external and just creating more focus on the internal. And I think it's something that I have to practice every single day. It's actually not intuitive. And it takes energy. Honestly, it takes energy to be mindful of that. But if I don't do that, then I'm. Yeah, I'm just stuck fomoing all the time. And that's, like, extremely negative headspace. And I'm not. I'm not working on myself.
- [48:12]
A
Yeah, I. I felt the same way at my book launch party last week. I was like, all. There's like, a hundred people there. And, like, it's this huge accomplishment and whatever. And I'm like, wait, what do I know about career? Like. Like, there are people that worked out, like, had way crazier careers and worked at way bigger companies. Like, why didn't they write this book? You know? Like, it really is every level we reach. It's like imposter syndrome hits again. But I think of it like an infinite ladder. Like, imagine a ladder that stretches all the way to the sky and, like, all the way to the floor, infinitely. You cannot get to the top of a ladder. It's infinite. Right. Like, the goal is just to teach people two rungs below you on the ladder. And, like, are you ahead of where you were two years ago? Right. That's what I think of. So I just think I'm perpetually in the middle of this ladder. There's. I can't climb anymore.
- [48:59]
B
And there's infinite ladders you could climb. No, literally, that's also something I struggle with all the time. I'm like, I might be top here, but now I'm curious about this other ladder.
- [49:06]
A
Yeah.
- [49:06]
B
So staying focused, too, is really important, because in the process of trying to climb all these ladders, you might actually be at the bottom of all of them.
- [49:13]
A
No, literally, right now, the ladder I'm looking at is like, AI. I'm like, oh, fuck, I'm so behind. But then I saw a video that was like, if you're using, like, Claude code and you're, like, educating yourself and blah, blah, blah, you're actually, like, ahead of 99% of people. And I was like, what? That's crazy.
- [49:28]
B
You're like, sick. I'm good.
- [49:29]
A
I'm like, okay, cool. But then there's people that know so much.
- [49:32]
B
Honestly, like, I think people blow it out of proportion a little bit about, like, how much there is to know. I mean, at the core of AI is like, there's an input and there's an output. So you being a smart, intelligent person, you know how to make an input, and you're just going to be better at it, making more inputs. This is the basis of all of AI. I think everyone else just over complicates it. There's the AI in a concept in isolation. Is simplicity. The reason why it's so incredible and so fascinating, so world changing, is because it is that simplicity. Simple. Whereas most technologies that's come before is not inherently that simple.
- [50:07]
A
Okay, another cheat code you have, which I think is so cool. You got a crazy house, got a stylist, get blowouts, hair done, all the things.
- [50:15]
B
Oh, yeah, I got my hair done for your podcast.
- [50:17]
A
It looks so good. I also hired a stylist and the opportunities are crazy. Like, literally the week after I hired a stylist, I was in Mexico City and I was walking down the street, I started talking to this girl who's Beyonce's stylist and she's like telling me about working. No, we had like a whole conversation. We've changed numbers. We got coffee later. Like, and I'm like, oh, that wouldn't have happened had I not been wearing this really cute outfit.
- [50:38]
B
Oh, 100.
- [50:40]
A
It's like crazy things. And the confidence that comes from it
- [50:42]
B
is the confidence is unmatched. I cannot walk for five minutes in Manhattan without getting stopped by a stranger 100 of the time. It's amazing. Unbelievable. And you know, you could argue maybe you don't want to be stopped that much. Yeah, I just looked at look, my stylist is just incredible and I look amazing all the time.
- [51:00]
A
Yeah, you're like, what?
- [51:02]
B
But I think it's less interesting about how much I'm getting stopped. What's more interesting is now imagine you're stopped that much at a conference that you want to actually talk to people about or another high leverage room. But more importantly, if you're on stages in meetings that are like, you become memorable and there's a brand identity that's associated with it. But me and my stylist have been working on recently is like having a very cohesive default look. And so like, if you've noticed, a lot of my fashion is around silk. So like silk tops, silk pants. Honestly, mostly silk pants. And very like monochromatic, either extremely monochromatic look or like a very bold color like this blue or like a red or like a yellow and like throw on like a kitten heel, throw on a blazer. That's kind of my look. Like I summarized it, basically every outfit has that and it this cohesive brand identity. Especially if you're more of a public facing person. And I don't mean Influencer. You could be like the CMO of a big company like that. You are a public facing person objectively. Right. It creates this subconscious memorability that they're not even going to realize, but they're going to recognize you faster. And so the next time an opportunity comes up, you're going to be the one that's top of mind. You're going to be the one they think of. Because the opportunity doesn't go to the person who's the most credible, who's the most respected, who's like, has the most merit. It goes to the first person they think of. Because everyone wants it to be easy and they want to just like close the loop on something as fast as possible. And so I do think it's helped me a ton with that.
- [52:34]
A
Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. If I think of like silk jewel tones, I think of you. Really? Yeah. Yeah. It works so well. Yeah. I think it's one of the best investments I've made in my career.
- [52:45]
B
Me too.
- [52:47]
A
It's been so powerful. Except for now I'm pregnant and nothing fits me. But, you know, but I think that's
- [52:52]
B
more of a reason to have a stylist because they can, in this time where you're, you're trying to understand your body, they can help you feel good and confident.
- [52:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I did a shopping, like a pregnant shopping spree with my stylist for cans.
- [53:03]
B
Yes.
- [53:03]
A
Yeah.
- [53:04]
B
I'm obsessed. You're on top of it. I'm not.
- [53:06]
A
Yeah, well, yeah, it was fun. It was great. But okay, so stylist blowout also there's a lot of like stylists, styling tools, online apps, people that you can have. Like, you can book a one on one session for like 100 bucks. Like, you don't, you don't have to go buy all new clothes.
- [53:24]
B
My stylist is like very fancy and legit. So like a lot of my audience will go and DM her and she's like, why are they asking me for a hundred dollar Styling?
- [53:34]
A
Yeah. Like, no. I'm like, oh God.
- [53:37]
B
Like I said, it's hundred dollars is possible. You can start there. Obviously I'm gonna go with the best stylist. This is like literally my career. And I'm like, I'm like maximum investment here. But like, you don't have to start at the max. You can start at the beginning and even just a couple looks.
- [53:50]
A
Yeah.
- [53:51]
B
For some important events can go like a really long way. You don't have to have daily styling. Like.
- [53:55]
A
No. A lot of Stores have freestyling too.
- [53:58]
B
No, fully. There's so. There's so many cheat codes. There is so many for this. And it's actually, I do want to say one thing about this and a lot of the nuance of social media is removed because social media doesn't allow for nuance. But I'm investing in this at this point in my career. The first couple years of my career, I showed up on camera in boy T shirts, disgusting hair, did not know how to do my makeup, literally in gross ass dark rooms as I was couch surfing. At the end of the day, the core of what I need every single day is to make a great video so I can look as pretty as I wanna look or how great my outfit is. I still need the basic foundation of my skill, my expertise. And so there's definitely not step one of investing in your career.
- [54:51]
A
Right.
- [54:52]
B
At the end of the day. I first built the foundation of what I know before I took it. It's really when you get to the second and third step of your career, these things can start to have a big impact in it. Okay. You have the foundational skill, you have the thought like leadership that you're looking for right now. Knowing certain people, having certain doors open for you, giving a certain impression is going to be what takes you from like one to a hundred after you've done the work of going from zero to one.
- [55:19]
A
Totally. Yeah. I mean I would think there's two games in personal brand building and content creation. There's the game of consistency is just getting content out there, just starting to build the consistency and then the game of optimization. I think getting a stylist, getting blowouts, getting good lighting, getting a microphone, getting any sort of equipment, like that's all step two. None of that's gonna matter if you're not posting consistently.
- [55:40]
B
Absolutely. And a great example is I was just telling you how I do. I'm starting YouTube just using my iPhone. I literally have all the equipment, all the cameras and the lighting in my house. But even just setting it up, even those extra 10, 20 and knowing me like hour it will take me set it up. Now I'm adding friction and that's having more lighting on my face is not gonna be the difference between the YouTube video like doing better.
- [56:06]
A
Well, the first one's not gonna perform
- [56:08]
B
amazing anyways before I completely flopped, if anyone's wondering, first one's gonna flop and my first 20 will probably flop, but I'm gonna be that much faster at getting to my first 20 if I remove all friction. So I literally just put like flip my phone to horizontal on the tripod, put on like my DJI mic, you know those ones that I use to make short form content and. Yeah, and I don't script. I don't anything. I just press record. Do you have a topic, though? Yeah, of course.
- [56:36]
A
This podcast started with voice memos on my iPhone.
- [56:39]
B
No way.
- [56:40]
A
Yeah, I was at. It started, I was at a airport maybe two years ago, and I had flown on like the Blade helicopter and I was talking to some guy in the Blade Lounge. I was like, I'm so cool. Like, I'm flying on a helicopter. It was like a hundred dollars with the discount. I was like, I'm so cool. But anyways, so this guy who's like, he wasn't flying on the blade, he was flying private. And so we have a whole conversation in the Blade Lounge. And after that I was in another.
- [57:06]
B
On voice memos.
- [57:08]
A
No, no, we had a conversation then. I. I don't remember. I think I was flying back to jfk. I was in JFK and I was so inspired by him and the conversation we had. And I was asking about like his private jet and why he was there or whatever that I was like, I have to film this right now. I wanna start a podcast and I wanna share how people are building their personal brands and what that gets them. And I was in an airport. I didn't have anything besides my wired headphones and my iPhone. So I was like, okay, I'll just open up my notes, not my notes app. I'll open up my voice memos and just record like five lessons that I learned from this dude. And like, that was my first podcast episode and took like 30 minutes in an airport.
- [57:44]
B
I'm obsessed. No way. It's crazy. I think one thing you said that really has impacted me deep, deeply that I want to say. I'm so inspired from that. I think you mentioned this in a video, like, you stop for the creative downloads from the universe. And like specifically our craft is very much about like being an artist. And so how creative we are is going to be like the output of our results. It's not necessarily going to be like how many times we tried. And since I've kind of been exploring this path of just being more authentic on camera and sharing more of my story, which is kind of a hard thing to do. It's. It's not as simple as it looks.
- [58:19]
A
I.
- [58:19]
B
And I'm obviously, I'm not scripting anything. It's just kind of like I just press record And I started speaking hundred percent of the ones that I was in a, like, a really awkward place that was really noisy. And I had a thought and I, like, pushed myself to press record, telling myself 15 times before I want to press record that no one is going to see this video. It will never make the light of day. And then at the end, I end up posting it and it ends up going nuclear.
- [58:45]
A
Yeah. I mean, ask any content creator ever, what is your top five viral posts of all time? Every single person is going to tell you. Well, this one is when I was driving in my car and I, like, was like half talking to my phone because I got an idea. This one is my friend was just talking about something. I just recorded her randomly. This one was, I was on a walk and I got a thought and I just recorded it randomly. Like, very few people's top one to five posts are like, oh, this one was scripted, optimized, it was edited. It had this fancy mic. Like, those are really great for, like, planning and creating the structure. Like, I think of it like the masculine, feminine energy of content creation. The masculine energy of content creation is very important. That's like, Tuesdays are my content days. And this is what I'm putting out. And I'm committed to this number. Right? But the feminine, like, chaos energy of content creation is. I'm walking down the street, I get an idea, I film it, right? Then I think the reason why this works is one, like, you're getting the inspiration. It's coming from, like, the fucking, like, divine creative ether. But also you're in the emotion of that video. And if you're in the emotion of, like, let's say, like a coffee shop closes in your town and you see it and you're inspired to post about it right now. If you're in the emotion, you're like, oh, my God, like, fuck. Like, did you see? Like, you're gonna be, like, upset and your audience is gonna resonate with that emotion. If you wait three days and the emotion's gone, you're gonna be like, did you know? Blah, blah, blah. Coffee shop is now closing in San Francisco. Like, you're not gonna have the same emotion. And so, like, really being in. And this is why, like, this is something that actors do, right? Like, actors are so amazing is because they can tap into those emotions at any time. If you're not a trained actor, it's gonna be really hard for you.
- [60:19]
B
Oh, my God. You said. And, you know, my problem has been I feel like I spend a good amount of time Doing my hair, do my outfits because it's important to me and I do think that it matters. But all those videos where I have a moment, I'm like disgusting hair, no makeup, worst outfit, dark. And I'm like, I have the most beautiful home and I just, and I'll like, I'll like prop up my camera, I'll like five, ten videos for a couple hours and I'm like so excited to post them because like my hair looked so good in that video. And it's like that just completely every time. It's like duck. But I will say one thing is I still show up every single day and do that even, even if it doesn't perform because I think it's just the act of showing up and the, and act of consistently putting content out there even if I'm not inspired, even on the hard days, even when I'm sick and it's, it sucks. Is the reason why I even have this falling today. Obviously like I would love to just only post the like highest ROI content, which is the part where I'm super inspired and passionate and it's, it's a video that's gonna hit no matter what. But it doesn't happen every day is the truth. Like I'm not out here giddy and inspired with like a woke philosophical thought every single day. So I mean I'd actually love to know from you how do you create that on a more consistent level? Or is the answer simply just you don't, you just take. When they come, you grab them?
- [61:46]
A
No, I am so consistent. Like every single morning from 8 to 9am I have my content club where we have a prompt. Like here's a prompt or an idea of something that you could post Today,
- [61:55]
B
every day, 8 to 9am yeah, every single day.
- [61:57]
A
Like oh, and that's central time. So today Woke up at 6 to do it. No, I woke up at 5:30 to prep for 6 and I, I just don't miss it. Like I do it every single day before I do anything else I post. And sometimes it sucks sometimes.
- [62:10]
B
And I'm sure you're the members of your club miss sometimes.
- [62:13]
A
Yeah, yeah, of course. You know, not everyone posts every day, so that's fine. But when people are like, oh, I didn't come because I don't feel like it, I'm like, then you'll never be successful. Like, I'm sorry.
- [62:22]
B
Yes.
- [62:23]
A
Like if you don't do something because you don't feel like it, I'm sorry. I never feel like working out. Like I Have to do it. Like, I'm never gonna feel like it. Okay. And, like, totally. You'll never be fit if you don't.
- [62:34]
B
People always say, oh, my God, you must love making videos. You make them all the time. I'm like, I never liked it for a single day. I really don't like it at all. I like the life it brings me.
- [62:44]
A
Yeah.
- [62:44]
B
I like the impact it. I get to make from it. I don't actually enjoy the process of, like, forcing myself in this incredibly inhumane position where there's a camera on my face. I'm alone in a room for, like, no purpose other than to, like, come up with something to say. Like, that's not fun objectively. And anyone who pretends it's fun, like, they're lying.
- [63:06]
A
Yeah, I know. Exactly. So, yeah. I mean, I stick to that consistency. And I also give myself permission to make it bad. Like, I make myself post every day, but the post could be, like, one sentence on, like, my Burner x account from 2013. Like, that counts. It could be an Instagram story of my dog. Like, I'm just getting something out. And now it's much harder for me to not post than to post. It's like, if you woke up and I was like, don't brush your teeth today, it would be really hard for you to not brush your teeth.
- [63:33]
B
Oh, my God. I have to say something about this. Okay. It's a little bit of a longer story, but I think this is gonna be something really impactful for your listeners. So last summer, I brought on a bigger team because I was trying to scale up the business. And the first thing we did was they were like, okay, we're gonna challenge you to post three times a day. Because I was posting three times a week. Okay. I was like, three times a week to three times a day. Like, that is psychotic. I can never do that. It's impossible. But they challenged me, and I was like, okay. And I took them seriously. I'm literally paying them. I have to fucking take them seriously. That was another problem with the situation. I was paying for them to challenge me. Okay. One of the hardest things I've ever done. I was literally going to bed. I was scheduling waking up. I was, like, racing to make my post. Three times a day is like, every two hours. You have to film, script, edit. I didn't have any editors at that point. Okay. And I was doing this for. I think I did this for, like, a couple months. It was brutal. And then they go, actually, if you think three times is too much it's kind of cannibalizing your views. Maybe just go to two times a day. Dude, two times a day was easy breezy, but I couldn't go from three times a week to once a day. And when I forced myself to do three times a day, now two times a day was like, I could do that in my sleep. I was like, I have the whole day to do a video. This is like, hilariously simple. And when I did two times a day consistently, what I also did, because I had so much more time, I really brought in like, high quality content. And that was a big reason why, like, I kind of, like, grew really fast. And then now I'm in more of this pivot stage of like, re understanding my audience and re understanding the type of content that I'm making. So my team said, okay, you. You need to collect data. You need to like, figure yourself out. Go back to one times a day. I'm like, what do I do with all my time?
- [65:18]
A
Yeah, that's amazing.
- [65:19]
B
I literally have like so much time now. And then I was like, I guess I have to pick up YouTube.
- [65:24]
A
Yeah.
- [65:24]
B
And so what's crazy is when I was struggling to do three times a week, I felt burnt out and I was like, I can't do anything else. This is way too much and I'm flopping and I'm not getting growth. Now one times a day, I can do high quality. Consistently going viral, I can do in my sleep. Now I'm gonna bring in a whole stream of work of kickstarting a YouTube from scratch. I'm now thinking, I think I'm gonna like, hotel hop in New York City all summer. Because I have all this time. Might as well party. I'm gonna go to Cannes. Should I go to Europe for a week? Like, isn't that insane? Cuz, like, even though I've added a whole additional layer of YouTube, it's still nothing compared to three times a day. That was one of the hardest things I've ever done. And these are not three posts a day, like tw, like tweets. These are like three fully produced videos.
- [66:08]
A
That's crazy. I'm sure you have so much you can repurpose too.
- [66:11]
B
I actually need to repurpose more. I don't repurpose as much, but I need to do that more. I think repurposing is such an obvious hack to content, and no one is mad about hearing a great video. Another time. And. And frankly, most of these people are not even hearing it a second time. They're new People in your audience that came recently who are gonna, like, appreciate and, like, like that content, or it's
- [66:30]
A
gonna be a reminder. Yeah, I saw your. I was looking at your top performing videos and, like, your DM conference organizers for tickets. You posted that one a few times.
- [66:37]
B
Yeah, I posted that one a few times because that one just goes nuclear.
- [66:40]
A
I know. It goes crazy.
- [66:41]
B
And I don't feel bad posting it because I'm like, this is like, I get hundreds of DMS a day of girls literally messaging me, telling me that video changed their life. Yeah. Because they. They did the bold step of emailing for that conference ticket, and they, like, all get one. Because it does actually work. It's not like a scam post.
- [66:56]
A
It's no, like.
- [66:57]
B
And you get one, and then they'll meet someone that gives them a job that, like, allows them to, like, move out of their country, come to America, and, like, start their life.
- [67:05]
A
Yeah, that's not. It's literally crazy. Yeah, I. I got a DM the other day of someone being like, my. I got my visa sponsored, and now I live in New York City because I followed your advice and I was like, what?
- [67:16]
B
Yeah, I think I'm gonna post that again tonight.
- [67:18]
A
Yeah, do it again. You know who the queen of repurposing is? Tori Dunlap. Do you follow her for first?
- [67:26]
B
No, I don't, but I. I need to check.
- [67:28]
A
Yeah, it's like she repurposes so much that she'll repurpose. Like, she has this one post that performs so well. It says that she gives her team men's relief. Like, you can take extra sick days if you have your period or you have.
- [67:44]
B
Like, I'm so obsessed with that.
- [67:45]
A
I know. Yeah, I know. It's. It's iconic, and obviously it's controversial. Like, it blows up because people are like, men are like, that's dumb. Like, what do you mean, your period? Yeah. Like, it's. Do you want to bleed from your vagina?
- [67:58]
B
See what that's like?
- [68:00]
A
Anyways, so she posts about it. She posts about that two times a week. Two times a week. Two times a week on every platform.
- [68:07]
B
How come I've never seen it?
- [68:09]
A
That shows you you can infinitely.
- [68:12]
B
I'm literally in her niche, and I've never seen this video. It's never come up on my for you page.
- [68:16]
A
Yeah, yeah. And she remote. She remakes it in a bunch of different ways. Like, she does it as Carousel. She does it as LinkedIn posts. Like, but it's the same, like, couple of posts and the same Copy and the same messaging repurposed two times a week. I followed her for years and years and years and still every time I see that post, I'm like, like, yeah, menstrually good for you. Like, every single time. I'm not bored by it, I'm not annoyed by it. I'm like, I'm like queen. Like, well, that's amazing. And I'm also like, repurpose queen. I love that for you. But it performs so well.
- [68:48]
B
I've had so many viral bangers, like nuclear videos. Like, I can infinitely repost infinite pieces of content. I actually never have to make content again.
- [68:56]
A
No, I know. Literally, like, I don't, I don't want
- [68:59]
B
to do that obviously, but like getting me thinking a little bit. Why am I not reposting as much?
- [69:04]
A
Yeah. Also, like, you take a week off, you know, I think it's good to reset your creative flow. And anytime people tell me they're burnt out from content, I'm just like, you gotta take a week off for that week. Repurpose only. And then by the time the week is over, you'll be like horny to create content. You'll be like, I'm like, I need to create content.
- [69:21]
B
Yeah, I get horny like a day.
- [69:23]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [69:24]
B
That's actually probably why we post so little, is because I have so much I want to say and like, I know this is a good problem. I'm not complaining. But like, yeah, sometimes I'm like annoyed at myself. I'm like, why do I post this much content? No, I like, I post six to nine times a day across multiple platforms. Yeah, obviously.
- [69:41]
A
Okay.
- [69:41]
B
But most of them is unique.
- [69:44]
A
Wow.
- [69:45]
B
Like at least six are unique.
- [69:47]
A
Oh my God. And they're multiple formats.
- [69:52]
B
No, it's all the same format. Just talking videos.
- [69:55]
A
That's crazy.
- [69:56]
B
Wow. Like, I can't do six to nine triple split screen clone videos. So like. No, not that. But, but yeah, yeah, I can. Yeah. Six, nine times in like under an hour.
- [70:07]
A
That's amazing. Okay, I think we're like over.
- [70:10]
B
Oh, are we over time?
- [70:11]
A
Yeah, we are.
- [70:11]
B
Oopsies. I mean, we can infinitely talk and we probably will infinitely talk after this.
- [70:16]
A
No, I'm thinking like we should, I should bring my podcast equipment to cans.
- [70:19]
B
Yes.
- [70:19]
A
And then we could all do podcasts.
- [70:20]
B
No, but LinkedIn is going to have a studio and we can film there if you want to.
- [70:25]
A
What?
- [70:25]
B
Actually done. This is happening.
- [70:26]
A
Oh, done. We're film.
- [70:27]
B
We're going to do one for the Genshi podcast there.
- [70:29]
A
Yes, perfect.
- [70:30]
B
That's Such I'm going to need like really good audio because there will be a fan on my face the entire time.
- [70:35]
A
Yeah, it's probably going to be like outside because I heard everything is outside.
- [70:37]
B
Okay. You're committing to me.
- [70:39]
A
No, I'm committing.
- [70:39]
B
Yeah.
- [70:40]
A
Wait, that's a really good idea of a brand pop up activation at a conference for them to have a podcast to do. They can book up that's branded because I assume it's going to be like LinkedIn branded.
- [70:48]
B
Oh, I bet Spotify will do it too.
- [70:50]
A
That's so smart.
- [70:51]
B
Yeah.
- [70:51]
A
Oh my God. I'm like, I want to do that at a conference. Okay, beautiful. Well, let's Part two. Part two and Genshi podcast.
- [71:01]
B
Okay, beautiful.
- [71:02]
A
I do have an ask for you guys before we go. If this podcast has benefited you in any way, if you have gotten a tip that you've really loved and you've implemented it, if it's given you some sort of inspiration, if it's given you some sort of motivation or clarity, my ask is that you leave a five star review. I would appreciate it so much. It helps helps spread the message, it really helps the show grow and it helps more people get access to this information. My deepest desire is un gatekeeping shit. I want to un gatekeep information. So anybody that desires to build a personal brand, to build a business, to create this success in their life and to live their dream, I want them to have all of the information and I don't hold shit back on the show. Okay, we are not holding shit back. Back. So in order to get this message to more people, in order to get these resources and tips to more people, your reviews go a long way. I appreciate you so much. Thank you.