The Transformational Psychedelic Medicine Powerful People Are Using Privately, with Whitney Lasseter

Summary

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Slay The Gatekeeper – Episode Summary

Episode Title: The Transformational Psychedelic Medicine Powerful People Are Using Privately, with Whitney Lasseter
Host: Courtney Johnson
Guest: Whitney Lasseter
Date: January 13, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Slay The Gatekeeper dives deep into the world of transformative psychedelic medicine, specifically focusing on Bufo (5-MeO-DMT, usually sourced from toad venom) and its rapidly growing yet still covert use among highly influential individuals. Host Courtney Johnson sits down with Whitney Lasseter—an acclaimed Bufo facilitator, medicine church founder, and retreat leader—to break the stigma, share real transformation stories, and explore why such powerful healing tools remain "gatekept" from the mainstream. The show aims to "un-gatekeep the gatekept," bringing transparency, courage, and practical guidance to those curious about psychedelic healing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking Through the Gatekeeping of Bufo ([00:46], [02:19])

• The Secrecy Among Influential People: Courtney shares how even the most public, “front-page” figures quietly use Bufo but won’t speak about it, citing examples like Tony Robbins, Mike Tyson, and Tim Ferriss as rare exceptions who have spoken up.
  • "These are people where if I told you their name, you would be like, oh, that's the person that was on the front page of the news today. And they would never, never talk about this publicly." – Courtney [02:19]
• Whitney on Social Taboos and Safety: Whitney notes that Bufo is still “not socially accepted,” leading powerful individuals to avoid public acknowledgement, despite personal transformation. She hopes that will change.
  • "It's a really powerful medicine, and it's just been really not socially accepted." – Whitney [03:20]
  • "It's interesting that some of the others aren't doing that yet, but I'm hopeful that they will." – Whitney [03:20]
• Courtney’s Take on Fear and Image: Suggests many fear losing their reputation or career if known for using psychedelics, and posits, "If everybody awakened, then what happens?" [04:32]

2. Transparency, Courage, and Publicity ([05:15])

• Inviting Journalists In: Whitney broke the norm by allowing a New York Times journalist to observe and later feature a retreat in the book Trippy.
  • "I want people to know about this. I want people to know the healing potential that it has." – Whitney [05:15]
• Risk and Integrity in Her Work: Whitney recognizes the legal gray area but chooses courageously to continue, led by a strong internal moral compass.
  • "I'm willing to be a martyr for the cause because I know how many people's lives are impacted because of the work we're doing." – Whitney [06:38]

3. Personal Transformation and Call to Serve ([08:51], [09:44])

• Whitney’s Awakening: Began with a near-death experience 20 years prior. Heartbreak and the search for relief led her to plant medicine, specifically Bufo.
• The Bufo Experience: Profound reconnection with God, healing past trauma, and discovering her purpose to hold space for others.
  • "When I sat in ceremony with bufo, I was able to reconnect with God with the true understanding of what God was instead of what I had been taught God was." – Whitney [09:44]

4. Documentaries, Transformation Stories, and the Challenge of Explaining the Medicine ([11:21], [12:32])

• Documenting Trauma and Healing: Whitney allowed participants who experienced profound trauma to film their ceremonies, emphasizing the need to destigmatize and document the power of the healing process.
• Fast and Deep Transformation: The retreats often result in visible, undeniable change, even to skeptics.
  • "The process itself is fast. It's quick and it's deep, and... many people say, the most profound experience of their life." – Whitney [13:04]

5. Psychedelics as a “Cheat Code” ([13:32]–[14:37])

• Game of Life Analogy: Courtney and Whitney liken psychedelics to cheat codes in a video game, tools that can accelerate personal development and healing.
  • "It's a game. And so, you know, whenever you're in a game, like, you find...the mushroom...and apply them, that they work." – Whitney [14:12]
• Myth and Religion Parallels: Playful references to fairy tales and biblical stories as hidden clues to the transformative power of sacred plants.
  • "It's so funny, too, about Cinderella kissing the toad, and then the prince appears." – Whitney [14:50]

6. Family Skepticism to Acceptance ([15:51], [16:36])

• Mother’s Transformation: Initially skeptical and fearful, Whitney’s mother (a devout Southern Baptist) eventually experienced Bufo herself at 76, leading to deep healing and reversal of judgment.
  • "She was like, I was wrong. This is of God. This is of God." – Whitney [17:09]

7. Developing and Leading Transformational Retreats ([17:52], [19:10]–[25:46])

• Whitney on Leadership: Leadership is about “leading with your heart” and being vulnerable, regardless of discomfort speaking in public.
• 4-Day Retreat Structure:
  • Day 1: Arrival, building rapport, sharing stories, Combo (frog medicine) cleansing ceremony, Rapé and Sananga.
  • Day 2: High-dose therapeutic psilocybin journey (5–10 grams) in a guided, inward-focused environment.
  • Day 3: Bufo ceremony—a culminating, deep-opening experience.
  • Ongoing: Yoga, journaling, integration circles, sunrise grounding, breathwork for physical and energetic anchoring.
  • "Each day a layer is peeled back... By the day of the BUFO ceremony, everything's just janked open." – Whitney [22:50]

8. Serving Unique Populations ([25:46])

• Veterans: Whitney tailored her master retreat specifically for veterans suffering severe trauma, which shifted the focus and called many to the work.
  • Connection with Dr. Martin Polanco and addressing the unique needs of veterans.

9. The Changing Landscape and Future of Psychedelic Therapies ([25:57], [26:17])

• Mainstream Momentum: Marked increase in news coverage, public funding (e.g., $300M in Texas for ibogaine research), and support from unexpected figures (e.g., ex-Governor Rick Perry).
  • "The science can't be denied... I think the future of psychedelics is bright...the awakening of humanity is happening." – Whitney [26:17]
• Ethics and Integrity: Emphasis on constant self-checks, walking the talk, and energy clearance among staff.
  • "Always walking in integrity. Like, am I doing that? And it's--it's kind of easy because I always am." – Whitney [28:24]

10. Addressing Concerns Around Addiction and Sobriety ([29:00])

• Therapeutic vs. Recreational Use: Distinguishing between plant medicine as a healing tool and as a recreational drug, highlighting cases like heroin addicts finding lasting sobriety and reconnection with spirituality.
  • "It's used to help even cure addictions and not as a drug...this is a deep process..." – Whitney [29:00]
  • Self-regulation: Bufo is self-limiting—demanding deep respect and unlikely to be abused.

11. Supporting the Movement ([31:19])

• How Listeners Can Help:
  • Normalize conversation and share stories about psychedelic healing.
  • Direct those in need to responsible facilitators and programs.
  • Support scholarships for those who can’t afford access.

12. Entry Points and Customization ([33:07])

• Starting Small vs. Diving In: Whitney assesses every client’s needs and sometimes offers smaller group psilocybin ceremonies as an accessible entry point.
  • "We do have...small group psilocybin ceremony. So that can be a good entry point for someone who's just getting into the work." – Whitney [33:43]

13. The Ultimate Cheat Code: “We’re Already Living in Heaven” ([34:15], [34:28])

• Paradigm Shift: Whitney’s signature teaching is to recognize that we are already living the dream—the miracle is now.
  • "We are, we are. Like there's the greater part of us is, is perpetually, eternally in heaven... we're alive beings. It's heaven right here, right now." – Whitney [34:28]

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On Social Acceptance of Bufo:
  "It's a really powerful medicine, and it's just been really not socially accepted."
  — Whitney [03:20]

• On Courage and Mission:
  "I'm willing to be a martyr for the cause because I know how many people's lives are impacted because of the work we're doing."
  — Whitney [06:38]

• On Healing and Redemption:
  "All the pain of my past was perfectly placed there...to give me the lessons I needed to fulfill my role on this planet."
  — Whitney [09:44]

• On Transformational Experience:
  "The process itself is fast. It's quick and it's deep, and...many people say, the most profound experience of their life."
  — Whitney [13:04]

• On Psychedelics as a Cheat Code:
  "It's a game. And so...when we find these tools, they really...when you find them and apply them, that they work."
  — Whitney [14:12]

• On Family's Journey from Skepticism to Acceptance:
  "My mom, at 76 years old, wanted to sit with Bufo... she was like, I was wrong. This is of God. This is of God."
  — Whitney [17:09]

• On Leadership:
  "I think it's just showing up and leading with your heart, you know, really leading with your heart. Like, I think people feel that for me, they know that when they come to see me, that they're going to be held."
  — Whitney [17:52]

• On the Current Landscape:
  "The science can't be denied...the future of psychedelics is bright...the awakening of humanity is happening."
  — Whitney [26:17]

• On Being in Integrity:
  "Always walking in integrity. Like, am I doing that? And it's--it's kind of easy because I always am."
  — Whitney [28:24]

• On the Ultimate Realization:
  "We are, we are. Like there's the greater part of us is, is perpetually, eternally in heaven."
  — Whitney [34:28]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:19] – Why Bufo is still mostly underground among powerful figures
• [05:15] – Whitney’s decision to allow journalists into ceremonies
• [08:51] – Whitney’s personal awakening journey
• [16:36] – Facilitating Bufo for her mother (generational healing)
• [19:10] – Four-day retreat breakdown (Combo, Psilocybin, Bufo)
• [25:57] – Discussion about landmark psychedelic research funding in Texas
• [34:15] – Courtney cites “we’re already living in heaven” as a life-changing Whitney lesson

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Resources & How to Connect

• ATMA Church: Whitney’s church and retreat center
• Instagram: [@WhitneyOfATMA]
• Scholarship/donations: For those who need financial help to attend
• Direct Contact: Whitney shares her personal cell for those seeking Bufo resources—561-401-1154

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Final Sentiment

Courtney wraps with admiration for Whitney’s courage, leadership, and devotion—encouraging listeners to explore further, share boldly, and recognize that heaven is already within and all around us.

Mic Drop:
"We are, we are. Like there's the greater part of us is, is perpetually, eternally in heaven...we're alive beings. It's heaven right here, right now."
— Whitney Lasseter [34:28]

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Transcript

[Whitney]

When I started getting into this work, my mom was like, what are you doing? Like, you're toad venom. Really? Are you. Like, you're a witch? Are you doing witchcraft?

[Courtney Johnson]

What's cool about what you're doing? Like, sometimes I'll send people the page to atma because it's public and because the information is public and because they can see everything that's happening. Do you think you should start smaller or do you think that your retreats are a good place to start? Why do you think plant medicine is a. Is a cheat code to, you know, you're living your dreams, your dharma, doing good in the world, and just, like, being the best version of yourself.

[Whitney]

It's just showing up and leading with your heart, you know, really leading with your heart. Like, I think people feel that for me, they know that when they come to see me that they're going to be held. They have a level of trust, you know, in my presence and. And comfort. And so I think that's why I'm in the role that I'm in.

[Courtney Johnson]

We're already living in heaven. Tell me more. Welcome to Slay the Gatekeeper. I'm your host, Courtney Johnson, and I am here to un gatekeep the gate kept. Thank you so much for being here. Enjoy. Okay, Whitney. Welcome to Slay the Gatekeeper.

[Whitney]

Hi. Thank you.

[Courtney Johnson]

I'm so excited you're here.

[Whitney]

I'm really excited to be here with you.

[Courtney Johnson]

We've been talking about this for a while. We're like, oh, come on. The podcast, You've been on my list. I'm so happy that we finally made it happen because we've got some good stuff to un gatekeep today.

[Whitney]

Yes, absolutely. I'm so honored to be here with you.

[Courtney Johnson]

I'm so excited. I'm so excited. In all of my topics around, everything, we've ungate, kept, we've ungate kept career, we've ungate kept, you know, mindset, transformation, We've un gate kept dating just, like, so much. And this is a topic that we have not un gatekeeped yet from anyone. So I'm so excited. Today we're on gatekeeping bufo. And Whitney is just an incredibly powerful, amazing, beautiful bufo facilitator. You have your own medicine church. You run retreats for all kinds of people. And just to see your work and the transformation that you've given others has just been amazing.

[Whitney]

Thank you so much. Yeah, it's really a deep honor to do this work and to hold space and guide people through their process of awakening.

[Courtney Johnson]

So I want to tell a story and then ask about, like, get your perspective on why you think bufo is gatekept. I do think it's becoming less and less gatekept. But I was with a friend who is in the circle of very influential people, I would say, like, among the top 50 most influential people in our country. And she was telling a story about a couple of them and how they were all doing bufo together and what they had learned and how they're integrating it. And these are people where if I told you their name, you would be like, oh, that's the person that was on the front page of the news today. And they would never, never talk about this publicly. Right. This was like an under the radar, shush, shush. And there's been a few people, a few influential people that have talked about doing bufo, like Tony Robbins, Mike Tyson, Tim Ferriss. But there's a lot of people that work with plant medicine that have experiences with bufo that will never, ever talk about it. I'm curious why you think that is.

[Whitney]

Yeah, you know, it's. It's a really interesting thing to think about. You know, it's a really powerful medicine, and it's just been really not socially accepted. And so it is pretty amazing that people who have so much, you know, I guess, authority or recognition wouldn't just stand up and say whenever they feel what the beauty that BUFO offers. Like, yes, bufo showed me the way in a. In a certain way. It's interesting that they wouldn't stand up and do that. I don't know really the answer to that, but it's. It's interesting. It's beautiful to see the ones that you mentioned who have stood up and said this, this changed my life. This transformed me. This changed my perspective. This helped me to see, you know, humanity in a greater light, you know, like Tony Robbins, like Mike Tyson. But it's interesting that some of the others aren't doing that yet, but I'm hopeful that they will.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure, I'm sure you've facilitated for people that are, you know, prominent, making big impact in the world. Like, definitely. I also think there's probably a level of safety that they feel like it's unsafe or people will create stories about them that especially people that don't understand or have never worked with any plant medicine. Do you think that's plausible? Maybe it's not safe or doesn't look.

[Whitney]

Good for their career, who knows? But it's like if everybody does bufo, if Everybody awakened, then what happens? And if these influential people with all this influence stand up and say that, and then everybody starts doing it, then they, you know, may not be happy, but. Yeah, I hope all that just crashes down and burns.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah, yeah. Bupo for everyone. So you've done something that I think very few plant medicine facilitators have ever done, and that is that you brought a journalist to your ceremony to go behind the scenes on everything that you were doing. What. What led to that decision? Like, why did you say yes?

[Whitney]

Well, you know, it really wasn't even a question in my mind, because I want people to know about this. I want people to know the healing potential that it has. And just me, myself, like, how did I. How do I get it out there? I didn't know. So, you know, I was approached by a New York Times journalist to come and attend one of my retreats that come and shadow one of my retreats and just see what happened. And I know the integrity we hold, so. And I know how we do things. So it's like, yeah, New York Times journalists to come and. And. And be able to go out and share the work that we're doing. Please, when do you want to come? You know, and so, you know, I. I think I've. I've had a lot of courage going, walking this path and creating the church because it is a gray area with legalities, but in my mind, it's. It's worth it because I'm willing to be a martyr for the cause and because I know how many people's lives are impacted because of the work we're doing. So it's like, also, like I always say, like, I used to lead a different life, and I, you know, I've. I've done things that, you know, are not great. And so I have a really strong internal compass of right or wrong, because I know what doing wrong feels like. And so I know what we're doing is right. And so I'm willing to take the risk of, you know, not fitting in the box or following all the rules in order to help someone.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah, that takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage in general to facilitate these ceremonies and to know that it is, like, in that legal gray area. And some people are uneducated or, like, against what you're doing, and it's. Yeah, it's. I, like, really honor your courage.

[Whitney]

Thank you. I received that.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah. That's beautiful. So this journalist came and shadowed you, came to your ceremony, and then you ended up with a whole chapter in his book, Trippy.

[Whitney]

Yeah. Yeah. And that. That was a really special thing. He was really moved by what he witnessed. We had seven participants come through the retreat that time that he got to witness each of their transformations. And he was just like, I've been to. I've been, you know, researching this. I've been writing on it. And out of all the retreats that I've been to, this one is the most impactful. This is the one that I felt moved by, by just witnessing it. And so he was intrigued to hear more about my personal story. And we sat down and talked, and we became friends. And Ernesto is an incredible man with a huge heart. And he was like, I want to share about your story. And I was a little bit like, I don't know if I'm ready for that, because it's pretty, you know, kind of rocky past. And so, you know, I had a lot of hesitation. And he was like, look, he was like, if you were just some yoga teacher out on the mountain there, just doing yoga for the last 10 years and you opened this church, he was like, I wouldn't be interested in your story. He was like, it's because of all the stuff that you've been through that I want to share it. So I was like, okay, that makes sense. And it also gave me a little bit of, I don't know, space of self love and recognition that, yeah, I did live this crazy life before, but it led me to here, and I'm proud of my past now. It's not something I'm ashamed of. It was. It was really healing to meet Ernesto and for him to work with me in that way.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah, that's beautiful. Such a beautiful book and a great chapter. And it's amazing, in your journey, was there, like, one turning point of, like, you wanted to take your life in a different direction, or was it a lot of little turning points that kind of compounded?

[Whitney]

Well, you know, my awakening journey really began 20 years ago. It happened. You know, it was a near death experience. It kind of started propelling my awakening process. And so, yeah, it was a near death experience that started it, but that was. That's not when I got into plant medicine. It's just when I started to realize that, you know, there was something greater and. And I became an endurance athlete and I became, you know, you know, a whole life. And then, you know, I reached a point of heartbreak. And, you know, heartbreak is some of the hardest pain that you can deal with. And so I was looking for relief from that pain. That's what many people come to this path for is they're looking relief from their pain. And so I was seeking relief from my pain. And I had already done all the drugs, so I'm like, I don't want to go back to using substances, but I want, you know, awareness to gain awareness.

[Courtney Johnson]

So that's how I. Wow. When did you feel the call to serve others?

[Whitney]

When I sat in bufo, I had. It was like the most profound experience of my life. You know, for one thing, my relationship with God was like zero. Like even though I'd had a near death experience and my awakening process had happened, I had. Had grown up a Southern Baptist and had religion shoved down my throat as a child. And so I was like anti God, anti religion. I don't want anything to do with it. I don't want to even hear the word God. I want. It's like, can we call it source or universe or something? And when I sat in ceremony with bufo, I was able to recon. Reconnect with God with it, with the true understanding of what God was instead of what I had been taught God was. And so that was a really deep and profound thing for me. That was one thing that happened. And it also showed me all the pain of my past was perfectly placed there happened at the right exact moment, the right exact time, in order to give me the lessons I needed to fulfill my role on this planet and in that, showing me that that included being able to hold space for, for others that had gone through, you know, painful trials and traumas and things. So, you know, after my bufo experience is when I started to, you know, investigate holding space and what that would look like and, and, and the path unfolded. The path unfolded for me to do so after that and training with a tribe and being blessed by them to carry the medicine and becoming a sun dancer with them and, and, and everything. So it was really a divinely guided path.

[Courtney Johnson]

That's. So that's a wild path. I can't wait for your memoir. One day it's gonna be so good or like documentary or something. Was there a documentary too?

[Whitney]

I've had people come through the retreat after the New York Times journalist came and did this story. He wanted to come back and do a story. And so we had a gentleman come who had been really brutally raped by his brother and another girl who was child trafficked from the time she was six to the time she was like eight or something. And so those two stories, one of them wanted to come in, they were like, can we please you know, can we please record this? Can we get some footage so that we can share with others? And so, you know, a lot of times it's like, you know, you don't want cameras in that kind of space, but because they really wanted their story to be shared. And I think it's very important for people to understand, like, you know, because there's a lot of misconceptions with this work. There's. People think it's recreational or you're just doing drugs or whatever. So to kind of create an awareness about the depth of the process, because people are going through cathartic releases in this and really letting go of lifetime of trials and stress and traumas. And so to have that documented so it can be witnessed is something that I find important and that they did, too. So we did do a film about it.

[Courtney Johnson]

That's amazing. Where can everyone find the film?

[Whitney]

It can be found. We can link it. Yeah.

[Courtney Johnson]

Wow. What's really cool is just the transformations are undeniable. Like, you might be like, what is this? Like, I don't understand. You're skeptical. You're like, are you just doing drugs? When you see transformation in people, it's like, okay, now. Now I get it. And I'm sure in those. Those instances like this, this man and this woman had just amazing, beautiful transformations. And it's so fast. It's fast. It's so fast.

[Whitney]

It's fast. The process of bufo itself is fast. And, I mean, and. But. And I always don't want to, you know, deceive anyone by thinking that that's where it ends. Like, that's where the work begins. Right? That's where your awareness, your eyes are open to the truth of who you are. And now you get to make different actions so that you're, you know, not falling back into old patterns. But the process itself is fast. It's quick and it's deep, and it's. Many people say, the most profound experience of their life. It's a big statement.

[Courtney Johnson]

I would say it was definitely the most profound experience in my life. Yeah, absolutely. Why do you think, like, plant medicine is a cheat code? Like, we talk a lot about cheat codes, and almost like we're in a video game, and, like, boop, we can move this here, put this there, and we have a little clearer path. Why do you think plant medicine is a. Is a cheat code to, you know, you're living your dreams, your dharma, doing good in the world, and just, like, being the best version of yourself.

[Whitney]

We really take life really seriously, you know, we're, like, in our stories, we're in our traumas. We're in. But really, I mean, it's kind of like a game.

[Courtney Johnson]

It's literally a game.

[Whitney]

It's a game. And so, you know, whenever you're in a game, like, you find. Well, Super Mario, you find the mushroom. You know, it's like, we even have these parallels, like, kind of mimic the game of life. And so it's like, when we find these tools, they really. I don't know why it was designed that way, but I do know that when you find them and apply them, that they work.

[Courtney Johnson]

So.

[Whitney]

Yeah, that's what I'm committed to helping people do.

[Courtney Johnson]

It is silly. Like, life is a silly game. It is so funny that these. Like, something from a frog can just take you to God.

[Whitney]

Well, I know. And it's so funny, too, about Cinderella kissing. Kissing the toad, and then the prince appears. It's like. It's.

[Courtney Johnson]

There's.

[Whitney]

It's like they're hidden clues. It's like, almost like we're in a. In a. Yeah. I don't even know how to articulate it.

[Courtney Johnson]

Whoa. Like, the. The symbols and the patterns. That's really, really cool. Yeah. I love the. The Bible examples how, like, mana, like, doesn't come. Like, we think of, like, mana is like this bread that comes from heaven, but it's really, like, in Aramaic. It's like a pillow that comes out of the earth after it rains. Just like, ooh, it's mushrooms.

[Whitney]

Yeah.

[Courtney Johnson]

And like, the burning bush being like, the acacia bush, I think, is what it's called. Yes.

[Whitney]

I went there to really see the burning bush in Egypt.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yes.

[Whitney]

It was amazing.

[Courtney Johnson]

Or like, Jesus drinking ergot wine, which is lsd. And it's, like, all hidden in the Bible, too. It's like, oh, we're not. He said, take this and drink and remember me. It's like, what? Yeah, that's crazy.

[Whitney]

And we're waking up to these truths, and then we're realizing the beauty. And the medicine shows us that. And that's why it's, like, hard to explain it to someone who hasn't done the medicine, who has a judgment about it. Because it's like, if only you did it, you would see. But then it's like, you don't want to persuade anyone who's not ready to do it. But my mother's a great example. When I started getting into this work, my mom was like, what are you doing? You're toad venom. Really? Are you. You're a witch. Are you doing Witchcraft. Like, she's very, you know, Southern Baptist. But after three years of seeing me facilitate and seeing. Hearing about the stories of lives change, my mom, at 76 years old, wanted to sit with Bufo, so I was able to facilitate with her. So, yeah, that's so special.

[Courtney Johnson]

How was that experience?

[Whitney]

It was. It was just. I can't even. I can't even say it was like, the most special gift to ever be able to share with mama. My mother, you know, she was carrying, like, 70 years worth of trauma, and her ceremony was one of the longest I've ever facilitated. Typically, the ceremonies last anywhere from, like, I would say 15 minutes to an hour and a half is what hers lasted. The average is about 30 minutes, but hers lasted an hour and a half. As she was just unraveling, you know, years and years and years of trauma.

[Courtney Johnson]

Wow. Oh, my God.

[Whitney]

And when she came out of it, she was in tears. And I actually videoed a little, you know, excerpt after, you know, just getting her. Her. Her feedback on it. She was like, I was wrong. This is of God. This is of God.

[Courtney Johnson]

I got goosebumps. It is literally a gift. A gift from God. It's so, so beautiful. I mean, you can commune with God. It's amazing. I also just really admire. Yeah, I just admire your bravery, your courage, your integrity. Like, it's been really amazing to see what you've built because you built, like, you've. You've had a lot of leadership. Like, you've built a team, you've built a church. You've built just so much. And I'm curious, like, what leadership has. Has meant for you?

[Whitney]

Wow, that's a really interesting question. Because I never really wanted to be in a, like, leadership. I don't like to speak in public. And so when I started the church, you know, we're a real church, you know, we were having Sunday service every Sunday, and I would be the one that had to get up and speak. I'm the leader of the church, and I'm like, I don't know what to say. Like, you know, I wasn't really as comfortable with speaking as I am now, but I didn't care because it was like, people need this. People need community. And it doesn't matter how uncomfortable I feel, I'm willing to show up and just wing it in order for. To serve the purpose. And so I think that, yeah, I think it's just showing up and leading with your heart, you know, really leading with your heart. Like, I think people feel that for me, they know that when they come to see me, that they're going to be held. They have a level of trust, you know, in my presence and, and comfort. And so I think that's why I'm in the role that I'm in.

[Courtney Johnson]

How do you establish that trust so that they can be vulnerable and unravel around you?

[Whitney]

So I, I really have created a four day process, a four day retreat that I welcome people to come through. It's the deepest process that, that can be provided through our, through our program.

[Courtney Johnson]

And will you walk me through the process so we, in what each day looks like?

[Whitney]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the first day is everyone arrives and that the day of just setting the container and really building that rapport and sharing my story. I think one thing that we can always do and everybody can do this and it helps create that trust with others is like really being open and sharing vulnerably who you are and what you've been through. And it helps others to be able to do that. And so I, I'm pretty open with doing that now, even though I didn't used to be comfortable. So the first day is all about creating that rapport, making sure everyone's comfortable with each other and really comfortable with me. And then we go into a combo ceremony. We do rape, Sananga and combo that day. And so it's really about a physical cleansing and preparation for the medicines that are to follow. So a lot of people go into ceremonies a lot of times that they're not really physically prepared, but we make sure that you are so that you can go to the depths with the experience. So the first day is combo. And are you familiar with combo?

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah. Can you explain to the audience what combo is?

[Whitney]

Yeah, absolutely. Combo is the frog medicine. And it is, it's known as the vaccine of the jungle. And so it has about 120 to 150 bioactive peptides that go in and just do a deep cellular cleansing. So we, we, we burn these gates onto the skin as you see here on my arm. And then we apply the medicine on top of those gates. And so within seconds that medicine gets into your lymphatic system and it begins to work. You start to have a reaction like increased heart rate, maybe some tingling in the face, but it really encourages, it makes a purge arise. And so sometimes the purging comes through sweating, or you might have a down purge, having to go to the restroom, but typically you'll have an up purge and you'll purge into a bucket. And so that lasts 20 minutes. And after that you Just have this sense of clearness, like you're physically clear, you're energetically clear, and you're prepared to go into the ceremonies that are the days follow. And then. And the second day, we do a deep dive with psilocybin. So we do. And a lot of people have had psilocybin in a recreational sense, but we're going with a therapeutic dose of 5 to 10 grams.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah, 5 to 10 grams is. That's.

[Whitney]

You're, You're.

[Courtney Johnson]

You're. That's crazy.

[Whitney]

So we're going in with a therapeutic dose of 5 to 10 grams.

[Courtney Johnson]

Wow. Yeah, that's powerful.

[Whitney]

Potent.

[Courtney Johnson]

That's potent.

[Whitney]

But we're doing it in a very therapeutic way. So people go into the ceremony, we have really comfortable mat set out for them. They have their eyes covered, they have curated sound and the headphones. And so there's no outside stimuli for them to pull from. This isn't an external experience. This is an inward journey and inward exploration deep into your own psyche. So it's really amazing. It's a really deep process that day. People come out of that day, like, with layers peeled back. They're like, oh, my gosh. You know, I've had military guys who have gotten to relive, like, some of the battles that they've gone through and see it from the perspective of the attacker. You know, it's like really amazing things that have come from these ceremonies. So that's. The second day is the psilocybin deep dive. And then the third day, we go into the bufo, the BUFO ceremony. So each day a layer is peeled back. Like, the first day, people come in and they're guarded, and so they sit in the combo together, which is. It's probably the most. The least fun of all of them. So they go through that together. And so they have a layer peeled back. They become more open. You can see them energetically open each day. It's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And the second day, they come in and do the mushrooms, and they're just more layers of tilt back. But whatever's left on that last day, everything's preparing you for that BUFO ceremony. So when the person goes into that BUFO ceremony on the third day, everything's just janked open. They're truly aligned. A lot of times people are meeting themselves for the first time. And so it's so beautiful. It's just like we're all in tears, and it's. It's. It's beautiful. And. And we also, in between, we weave in all the preparation, integration. We're doing, like, really intentional journaling. We are doing integr vibration. Each night we're doing. We wake up with the sunrise to reset our circadian rhythm. We ground, we do breath work. So they're getting all of those optimization modalities weaved in to anchor it into the physical body, too. So it's. When they leave this retreat, it's. Most people are like, this is better than I've ever felt in my life that I can remember feelings since I was a child.

[Courtney Johnson]

Wow.

[Whitney]

It's incredible.

[Courtney Johnson]

That's amazing. And you said you also. There's also rape and. What else?

[Whitney]

Rapay and sananga are used on the first day. And sananga is an eye drop.

[Courtney Johnson]

It's tree bark.

[Whitney]

And so it's just dropped into the eye. It's a very short ceremony. It'll only last maybe five to 10 minutes. But it really helps to clear the panema, like the dark cloud energy. It helps to prepare your nervous system. When it first drops in your eye, you can be kind of jarred, but then with the breathing, you can feel your whole nervous system just completely relaxing, and you find yourself very present in the room and in the space. And. And then we go and we work with a rappe. And that's very grounding, too. So that's the tobacco snuff that's blown into the nostril. And that really helps people anchor into the presence of the experience, because the minds are just going and going and going and. And so we get everyone anchored there, everyone connected, and then we go into the work.

[Courtney Johnson]

How did you develop the process?

[Whitney]

I really love that you asked me that because I was asked by a friend who knows that I work with all the medicines, like, if you could create a master retreat, like, what would it be? And I have some people I want to bring through it. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, you know, just whatever I wanted, like, weaving in all of the modalities that I know of. And he was like, yeah, like, what would it be? Give me, you know, write it out. And. And so I sat down and I really prayed about it, and I tuned in and I. I just came up with it. I came up with this retreat. I never heard from. Like, I sent the information and I never heard from him. And about two weeks later, I got a call from. From Dr. Martin Polanco, who is a doctor locally, who is, you know, research doctor. And he said, I have some guys I want to send through your retreat or I want I want to send to you for bufo. And I got on the phone with one of these veteran, this veteran, and he said, yeah, we don't want. We were looking more for a retreat. So I had it already planned. I had it already ready to go. And it was special because that's when all the veterans started coming through. It was like, designed for them. So it's really, really a blessing.

[Courtney Johnson]

That's beautiful. And we have great news recently of. What is it? $300 million in funding for psychedelic research for veterans in Texas.

[Whitney]

For the ibogaine.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah, for ibogaine specifically. But that's huge, massive progress.

[Whitney]

Yay, Texas.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yay, Texas.

[Whitney]

Yes.

[Courtney Johnson]

That's. Yeah, that's wild. I didn't think I would like, ever see that in my life, but it's, it's huge, massive progress. What do you see for the future of like, psychedelic therapies?

[Whitney]

You know, it's really interesting because I started working with this medicine seven years ago. And so it was not her. BUFO was not something that you would, you would hear anything about. And so to see that the, the evolution of. From seven years ago to now, you know, now seeing it sometimes on Fox News or seeing it on just normal news channels and hearing it talked about, it's been a slow process, but I think there's a lot of momentum going and there's a lot of people talking about it. The science can't be denied. And so there's so many studies on it now and people who are jumping on board. Like we were talking about Rick Perry, the former governor, you know, someone who is a hard no to any kind of drugs, any kind of substance, who is now like a devotee advocate of it. It's like you're going to see more and more of that. And so I think the future of psychedelics is bright. I think it's, you know, it's the. How the awakening. Awakening of humanity is, is happening. So I'm, I'm front row and center.

[Courtney Johnson]

You are leading the charge. It's amazing. So you're like, really, you're such a leader in this world, in this industry and this modality, and you're leading these incredible retreats and leading a church. How do you make sure that you're staying in integrity and your space is staying clear with you and your support team and everyone that works with you?

[Whitney]

Well, I think that just is always you just checking in with yourself and making sure, making sure we're holding space for a lot of people, a lot of trauma. So making sure we're not just talking the talk, we're walking the walk. We are taking time to assess ourselves before, before holding space for somebody else. Making sure my nervous system is in check. Like I have a regular life too, and so crazy stuff happens in life, you know, and making sure that I'm keeping things separate, that I'm really. I think the biggest thing is just making sure you are always walking in integrity. Like, am I, am I in, am I, am I, am I doing that? And it's, it's kind of easy because I always am.

[Courtney Johnson]

It's so easy.

[Whitney]

So, you know, it's, I think, I think because of my past and having, like I was saying, I have that internal compass of right and wrong. Like I can check if I'm ever going out of alignment from where I need to be. I, I feel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Courtney Johnson]

I'm curious if you work with clients that are, are sober and how you address sobriety. There's so many people that are like, I want transformational experience, but I'm, but I'm sober. And obviously that's coming from the story of that like this is a drug or this is akin to like recreational use. There's a lot of stories. But I'm curious if you face that and how you, you go about it.

[Whitney]

Well, it's, it's really beautiful that I've had, you know, drug history so I can kind of give my experience with that and it's like sharing with people like this is the God molecule. Like this is. I've had heroin addicts that have walked in to sit in ceremony with me who have been nihilistic atheists who have sat in the ceremony, had cathartic release and redevelop their relationship with God. And it's four years later still sober and everything. So I can share the stories about how this actually, you know, it, it's, it's used to help even cure addictions and not as a drug, you know, it's not something you abuse after you do it, you can realize it's not something you'd want to do recreationally. This is a deep process. And, and BUFO specifically really self regulates. Like if you, if you are doing BUFO too frequently, which I wouldn't serve it to you too frequently, but if you're jumping around trying to, which you wouldn't because once you do it, you'll understand it self regulates, it demands respect. When I did bufo for the first time, I was kind of like, oh, give me the big dose, I can handle it. And it immediately took me to my knees. And it showed me how all the pain in my life was worth it and all of this. But it was powerful. It's not something that you would play with.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah, you can't fuck around with it. Yeah, I've heard it a few ways. One, that's like your body, if you've just eaten a big meal, you're not going to go eat more. I mean, maybe if you have an eating disorder or something, but you're really full, you're not going to eat more. It self regulates. Or I've also heard it be said like, oh, would you give birth recreationally? It's like the experience of giving birth, you're not just going to be like, I'm bored, I'm uncomfortable. I'm going to go give birth. It's that level of demands, that level of respect and power and trans. Transformative experience.

[Whitney]

So yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Courtney Johnson]

Recreational birth doesn't sound fun. Okay, beautiful. I'm curious how you think we can support what you're doing, Support what other people are doing. Support, like what's happening in Texas? Like, there's so much movement in the psychedelic space and again, a lot of people are staying quiet, which is like, fine. Like a lot of. A lot of people are talking about it. I'm just curious whether it be donation support, sharing, sharing your story, like, whatever. How can people support this movement?

[Whitney]

I think definitely sharing your story, talking about it, normalizing it, like it's. It's been so shunned for so long, you know, and made it illegal, you know, psilocybin, illegal, illegal, illegal. So it's like the more we talk about it, the more we normalize it, the better it is. I think sharing with people who, you know, could specifically benefit from doing it. Finding, sending them to us, you know, of sharing about the, the healing potential of it with them and as an option. Because some people, a lot of people just don't know. I was amazing. I just got back from Burning man and I was speaking at my tent. And that's a place where you would think so many people are so aware of things. Like nobody in my whole group there had heard of bufo. And I was really shocked and surprised. So I think it's like educating yourself on it, researching it, listening to the stories of others and sharing your own story and then sharing it with people, like I said, who, you know, would benefit. And also there are a lot of people who are needing the service and they can't afford it. And so we do have a scholarship program and we scholarship people through. So if anyone wanting to give donations for that, for that purpose, definitely that's a way, that can be a great way to support as well.

[Courtney Johnson]

So there's been some people especially. I'll get like random DMs and people are like, oh, where do I start with psychedelics? And like, I usually ignore it. Cause I'm not gonna prescribe somebody something over Instagram DMs that I don't know or whatever. But what's cool about what you're doing? Like, sometimes I'll send people the page to ATMA because it's public and because the information is public and because they can see everything that's happening. But I, I'm curious and I have a story that like, oh, I, I can't send ATMA to these people because that's too intense to start with. What would you, do you think it is? Do you think you should start smaller or do you think that your retreats are a good place to start?

[Whitney]

Well, it just really depends on the circumstance. It's not a, you know, one size fits all for everyone. So I talk to everyone who's going to come through any of our programs and assess with them what's needed. So we do have, I do host maybe like bimonthly, monthly, bimonthly small group psilocybin ceremony. So that can be a good entry point for someone who's just getting into the work. But sometimes, I mean, sometimes the veterans who come through, they've never, they've never smoked weed or anything and they, it's like they've their trauma so heavy that this. It's needed. Yeah. Yeah. So it's depending on the person.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah. Okay. So you offer like a lighter, like one day psilocybin experience.

[Whitney]

Yeah, I do that in collaboration with JJ Ruizkas, who is a, you know, a nervous system wizard here in town who facilitates a lot of breath work. So he and I collaborate on that. And so he really does a good job of preparing everyone his nervous system with a specific breath work calibrated for, for the psilocybin ceremony. And, and we go into it.

[Courtney Johnson]

Yeah, that's beautiful. JJ is really, really awesome.

[Whitney]

Yeah. Okay.

[Courtney Johnson]

I have one last cheat code that is a cheat code that I heard from you. And I'm like, wow, this, this has impacted literally every single day of my life since I heard this. And that is we're already living in heaven. Tell me more.

[Whitney]

Yeah, we are, we are. Like there's the greater part of us is, is perpetually, eternally in heaven. Right. And so we're just opening up to the realization that. That we are that. But when you look around, there's so much. Always there's. When you open it, I mean, do you wake up and look around you and just realize, I'm exactly. My dream is here. Like, I'm surrounded by beauty. There's abundance outside. I'm. I'm breathing. You know, I came out of my ceremony one time and I was just, like, looking at my hand and I'm just like, wow, I'm alive. We are alive. We're alive beings. It's heaven right here, right now. It's just. What are we giving our attention to? Are we giving our attention to that heaven? Are we paying attention to the miracles? Are we watching for the synchronicities? Are we noticing it? Or are we in our head and in our brain and. And thinking about the past or the future or what we need or what we don't have? But if I'm to guarantee you, if you tune into the present moment, because that's all that there ever is, you will notice that you are actually in heaven.

[Courtney Johnson]

Whoa. Oh, my gosh. So good. I feel like that's the perfect mic drop moment. Way 10. Okay, we're gonna link all of your things in notes. People can find you. I think everyone should get on a flight to Texas and come see you because you're so amazing and read the book, watch documentaries, follow you on social. All the things. So where can people find you?

[Whitney]

Yeah, well, you can. You can find me at our. Through our website, Atma Church, or through Instagram WhitneyOfOTMA. And there are all kinds of information on there. I can. I always do this too, and I'm gonna do it here now. I always give out my personal phone number because I want people to know that they can. If you want to send me a text, I will just respond to you with information. I create a specific BUFO guide that has testimonials, that has research articles, has everything. So anybody that's interested in BUFO specifically, I can send you this and you can just get on your research journey. So my phone number is 561-401-1154. You can text me directly and I'll reach back out to you. I love sharing this work. I'm devoted to it. I'm passionate about it. There's nothing on earth that I can imagine doing besides this.

[Courtney Johnson]

That's so beautiful. Thank you, Whitney.