B (4:58)

Of course.

A (4:59)

Okay. I was like, we deserve nice shit. And so, so many of us who struggle with that stuff have not felt like we have been had tools developed for us because we're trying to use tools that were developed by neurotypicals with strategies that work for them that are all centered around discipline and repetition and consistency and all of these things that like I suck at. And so every single time I spend money on a tool that was not designed for me. So. And then I feel like I failed at it. It's like another notch to your. Another dink in your armor. Right. Another hit to your self esteem that just like reinforces that storyline that I'm a failure rather than being like, maybe players failed me. Right. Maybe the options available weren't good enough. Um, so anyway, thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

B (5:48)

Yeah, I love it. It's incredible. And like I said, it's helped me so much. And I actually want to go through a couple of the tips or cheat codes that love that I kind of always come back to. And my like, I learned this from your book. The biggest thing that I keep coming back to that's helped me in 2024 was body doubling. I actually set up a community. It's actually a paid community. So I have to show up or I'm literally scamming people. So it's like forcing me to show up.

A (6:16)

Accountability.

B (6:17)

Yes. A paid accountability community. Every Monday and Wednesday morning, it's co working. I open up a zoom session. We all set our intentions of what we're working on. We see each other in the zoom. We work, do deep work for an hour. And that really starts my day. Great. But yeah, how do you think about body. Body doubling and how can the audience members start to incorporate body doubling into their own workflow?

A (6:40)

I love that. I also, that was the thing that I did. I did have with my community for a while where we had Wednesdays was like body doubling. And I got to really connect with people from the community. And over a while, like, you know, there were fewer and fewer people. But the people who did show up every time really started to form bonds where we like know about each other. And that was really, really great because we do kind of like a 25 minute. We do the pomodoro timer thing where it's like, let's do 25 minutes and then we'll do a five minute break just to check in and say, here's what I did, here's what I'm going to do for the next one. But I like an hour because sometimes it's hard to like get in the zone within that time without having to like, reset. But I, I have found that body doubling is so, so helpful, particularly when it comes to stuff that I've been putting off. Something about having someone else there even right. And them not even working on the same thing as me makes me feel that, like, not alone feeling that just is so. Makes it like pulling teeth to do stuff. And so even my ADHD coach and I now for almost five years have been. On Fridays we have avoidance murder party. And what we do is we take stuff from. There's an activity in the book called Procrastination Hit List that's like, there's little wanted posters and you doodle your to dos as little like cartoon villains. And then when, instead of checking them off when you're done with those tasks, you get to like stab it with, you know, stab it with your pencil and put a little, you know, hole through it. And it's, it's gratifying. And we don't, I don't actually draw them out and hit them every time anymore because I'm. But what it is is not just body doubling, it's specifically body doubling for stuff I don't want to do. So when something pops up during the week that's like, ooh, I have to pay. I have to do some like, admin or oh, I have to pay this medical bill or oh, I have to, ugh, I have to call my insurance company or something like that just makes me like, ugh. I am able to not just say I'll get to it later. I get to say I'll get to it Friday. And then I have a little list on Friday of the stuff. And then when we're there, we get to like complain about the stuff and get advice or do whatever it is. But the recurring body doubling rather than just having one offs I found is super, super useful. Um, but telling other people, telling other people about it. And also I typically have to make sure that I'm listening to music or have headphones on in some way so that I'm not like tempted to distract others. Mm. Oh my God.

B (9:15)

Avoidance murder party. I love that. That is such a good cheat code. Just naming your, naming your things. I, I stopped naming my like money check ins, money check in and I Change it to like money date with a bunch of hearts and kisses and like, ooh, it's a sexy money date. And my, my writing workshops are no longer writing workshops. It's like writing coven and it's with other women and it's all witch themed. Like, naming things is so much fun and it makes it so much fun to do. And I love having a murder party. That's awesome.

A (9:48)

There's so much like power in it because it doesn't feel boring. And it's the anti boring thing. Like it doesn't feel boring. And it. That little extra injection of whimsy, if you will, can. Yeah. Can make a huge difference.

B (10:04)

It also creates a container that you can put a task in. So if you have, if you don't have a container for a task, it can kind of rattle around in your brain. You can kind of ruminate on it. But if you put it in a container and you're like, okay, this is going on the Friday murder party. It's a lot. It's like organized in your brain. It makes you feel better.

A (10:22)

Well, and I don't feel bad for procrastinating. And again, the key here is really making sure that when the thing pops up and I'm like, oh, I'll do that Friday. Having a note on my phone to jot it down so Friday does not come. And I'm like, what is it that I needed to do again? Because then that is just falling into the procrastination. I'll do it later hole. So making sure that I've kind of got that and having a plan going in. And I will say that we actually started to kind of slip for a while where we, we. We'd get to Friday and, and it would just turn into a body doubling session of stuff we were already planning on doing. And it was really easy for that to sort of like slip and become less focused around. I need. I, you know, I'm putting, I'm doing stuff I've been putting off and it wasn't as effective. And we were canceling way, way more because it was. Again, it's just me and my coach. We were canceling way more and more because it felt optional now because I was already planning on doing that stuff. And so. And then we recently have been like, hey, we need to get back into it. We need to make it the avoidant thing that worked so well and now we're back on track and it's. We're back to literally like killing it. But being able to have that like, you Said. Right. The. The fun naming element or, you know, money dates where I had, like, finance friend time Fridays, where at work, when I worked at Gallup, a bunch of us would, like, sit in a booth and we'd get lunch on Fridays, and we'd sit around and, like, talk about our budgets because we all didn't want to do it. But something about getting together with friends and having it connected to something fun that we got to look forward to, like, doing lunch really helped to. It's like that spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down kind of thing. Yeah.

B (12:08)

And I love what you're doing right now. I think another cheat code is having a personal off site, if that's something that's available to you. I was working on a book proposal this year, and instead of, you know, integrating it into my schedule, I booked a cool Airbnb kind of in the middle of nowhere. And I'm like, ooh, I'm gonna have, like, a fun, like, frolic through the forest weekend, where my intention is to work on this, and it makes it a fun space, special thing. So I love that you're. You're doing this.

A (12:35)

There's actually a whole page in the book that's called Switch It Up. That's, I think, in the uninspired section, or it's somewhere in the unmotivated section or waiting to feel like it, maybe. And it's. It's got a list of ideas with little, like, dollar signs next to it. But, you know, Airbnb retreat is like four dollar signs, you know, but. And there's like, coffee shop, which is like $1 sign. But I remember in college, right, I had to go to the library to. To work on papers. Like, I couldn't even do it in my dorm room because I was so likely to want to talk to my. The temptation to talk to my roommate or to be around other stuff, versus being in an element that's like, I have nothing else to do in this place other than work. And I'm not. I'm less likely to get on social media because if I was going to scroll social media, I could have just stayed home. And so that sort of tricking your brain to be like, I have a purpose here, really does. And the getting out of your typical environment, especially if it's one where, like, you've got cat. My cats are such attention hogs. And it's very difficult to not, you know, have little things that you don't even realize are getting distracted if you're doing stuff at home. Yeah.

B (13:43)

I find Another fun cheat code is, like, if you find something more boring than the thing you're trying to do, it makes it more interesting. So the. I've been the most productive. When I was in college and I would be in a class that I didn't want to listen to, but working on other homework or if, like, my boyfriend is watching, like, a TV show about, like, war or something, I'm, like, bored, and I'm going to be, like, working on something else. I love that. Like, also what you don't want to do. I think a library can be that too, because you're like, everyone around here is, like, reading. This is boring. I guess I'll do this thing because it's. It's interesting.

A (14:15)

It reminds me a little bit of. I also got in the stuck section. My coach told me about task adjacency, which is where, like, if you can't get yourself to do the dishes, stand in front of the sink and turn on the sink. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to do anything, but stand in front of the sink with an I go. It's like, oh, that's wasting water. And I'm like, pretend like you were in the shower for an extra few minutes. Like, everybody calm down. But. But stand in front of the sink and turn on the faucet for, like, two minutes. You will get so bored that you will start doing dishes. Like, I cannot express how, like, make. Or if it's like, oh, I want to get myself on the elliptical. And it's like, instead of being like, I want to elliptical for 20 minutes, it's, I'm going to put on my exercise clothes and stand next to the elliptical for three minutes. And standing there, and if you don't want to, you still get to tell yourself, you know what? I showed up. I did the thing I said I was going to do. Maybe next time this will work and trick my brain. But, like, if it doesn't, it's okay because I can feel like I hit the bare minimum. Right? Everything else is gravy. And so. But a lot of times, again, standing there, getting. Getting yourself there, getting yourself in the mindset, that's half the battle. And then once you get there, if you can make yourself bored enough, you will go, well, this is more stimulating than just standing here. So I love that I was actually.

B (15:34)

Just going to bring up task adjacency as another cheat code because that's something I learned from your book that's been really, really helpful. And I love that you bring up the gym. Because something I've started doing is like, I just have to go on a walk. It could be a ten step walk, but all I have to do is like walk out my door with sneakers on. Like that is the goal. So I love that. That's awesome. And yeah, I, I found, oh my gosh, I, I sometimes get into these crazy procrastination shame spirals around client work. But I find if I do something like, similar to the client work, like even like open their website and click on like read their new blog, that will get me into the mindset a little more.

A (16:12)

I love that. I was gonna say I'm just like sitting here, I'm like, you know what? I'm just. Every time we like trip into something that reminds me of an activity from the book, I'm just gonna say it. So even if people don't get the book, it's like, let me just tell you everything. But I have how to set realistic expectations for yourself. Right? And so, and how, and then there's one that's how to set realistic expectations at work and around like client. There's literally because I did freelance for a while. So there's like client project stuff. Here's how to um, set boundaries here. You know, don't over promise, you know, over, under, promise, over deliver all that stuff. Um, but the lowering your the bar for yourself I had started with my husband of I was having a hard time getting back into doing exercise. But the choosing to show up and exercise, however small it is, is what actually matters. So we would do stop sign walks and if so if one of us asked the other person, like if you weren't in the middle of like a meeting and the person goes, hey, do you want to walk to the stop sign with me? Pretty much like unless you're dying or you have something you can't do. We like have agreed that we will say yes because it will take two and a half minutes and we walk to the stop sign. But once we get to the stop sign, we look at each other and it's like, do you want to do the next stop sign? And sometimes it's like it's cold. I don't want to. Let's go back. But other times it's like, yeah, let's go ahead. The conversation is good. And then we'll go to the next stop sign and it's like, do you want to keep going? And so there's all these little checkpoints, points and sometimes we go down and it makes a little loop and we get to come back and we feel really good about it. But that's making an effort to go to the stop sign is what got me to start going back to the gym again. Or like I've got, I go to Lifetime and it's like I want to swim, but I'm like, I, that feels like work. And I'm like, I'm gonna go and I'm going to use the hot tub and listen to a business podcast. So it feels productive. And I know that that's the, that's the bar, right? And I love hot topping. And it's easy. It's not exercise. But I get there and, and I see that there's a lane open. I'm like, I'm already here. I'm already in my swimsuit. I can do 10 minutes. And you get in there and do 10 minutes. Like, well, now I've only, I can do 10 more minutes. So like setting that bar so low, rather than the, the I'm going to exercise for 30 minutes a day. It's like I'm going to exercise for three minutes a day and start there and impress yourself every day instead of feeling disappointed, you know?

B (18:31)

Yeah, I, I love that. I, I like to call those things my daily non negotiables where I have to do like literally five jumping jacks, literally walk one block and literally do a one minute, just 60 seconds YouTube meditation. It, I, I think we, we set the bar so high in a way that's unsustainable. And honestly, our brains have been like fucked by school in corporate America that was not serving neurodivergent people. So it puts you even more in a shame spiral because you're like, fudge, like, how come I can't do this like everybody else? And whatever. So I think another, another cheat code I have and I help a lot of people that are just starting content to do this is. You're just building a habit. Give yourself permission to do it badly. It's okay. It does not have to be good. It's like learning an instrument, right? You would never, ever, ever expect to pick up a guitar and be perfect on the first try and be like, well, I'll come back to this when I'm perfect. No, no, no. You have to give yourself permission that the first 50 guitar lessons are going to be awful. They're going to suck and they're going to hurt your ears. That is fine. Like give yourself permission to be bad and suck at whatever new habit you're creating. Once you get the habit, then you can improve I think that there are.

A (19:43)

Also a lot of people who don't know as far as, like, the content. A. I think that that's absolutely 100% true because the unrealistic expectations, especially when you're trying something new. And I think content is something that, like, looks easy and intuitive versus, like, guitar. You clearly have to, like, learn how to do a guitar. But, like, filming content feels, especially with tools like TikTok or whatever it is that, like, feels like it should be easier and they don't understand that. As a, you know, content creator, I've got 750 drafts and 735 of them are bad and I would never post them. But, like, you have to have all of those shitty drafts in there because. Because when you're like, I really. It's. It's been two weeks since I posted something, I need to post something. You. You haven't. You're not like, forcing yourself to try and create content when you're not in the head space. You can sit and write, like, film a bunch of them. A bunch of them at once. But right now I've got, like, a little. I've. I call it three by seven. This is in the anti planner too. This actually isn't even in the the book yet. Um, but I have, like, a note card I put on my mirror. Um, here's a cheat code for you. I. I've been doing this for months now. I can't believe it. A note card I put on my mirror that says I will. And I have three, like, manifestations. And I've got seven checkboxes that say Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you know, the whole week across. And so I put. I will work on TikTok. TikToks every day. I will move my body every day. You know, like, the purposeful, like, stops. And I will do this every day. And I've got little Sharpies next to it and I put it on my mirror. So when I'm brushing my teeth, it's like right where my face goes, so I can't miss it or forget about it. And the bar, you're right again. The bar is so low. But that means that if I'm sitting there and I'm filming and I heard a sound that, that I liked and I filmed a little crappy draft. It's not. I posted something every day. It's just like, I opened up the app and I did something in the app every day. So that keeps you moving towards those goals without putting the pressure on yourself to have a finished product even.

B (21:54)

I Love that. How. How else can we gamify our. Our tasks? Let's say you have a big grueling task at work. It's overwhelming. You're in that procrastination shame spiral. What's a game we can give our audience?

A (22:07)

I'm like, it depends on what if it's. I was like, it depends on what is making the task challenging. Like, that's the beauty of the Anti Planner, right? Is that you come with why that deep dive of like, why am I procrastinating? Because if you figure out the why, it's so much easier to find a tool, right? The whole, like, not every. Not every problem requires a hammer. If you're trying to like, hammer a screw into the wall, you can do it. It's gonna take so much more effort than if you. If you use a tool that was designed to address that problem. And so being able to. If the problem is, you know, it's boring, then gamification is going to work so much better than just if it's intimidating. Because if it's intimidating, making it less scary starts first. And once it's less scary, it's easier to gamify it. Because if you try to gamify it but it's still scary, it's going to again, be so much. You can do it, but it's harder in the way that you can hit a screw into the wall and with a hammer. And so being aware of the fact that like the. Or. Or if it's like, oh, I'm feeling hope. Like in the book, the Hopeless and insecure sections have a lot fewer games because if you are feeling like I suck, everything sucks. Like this sucks, I suck, everything sucks. Tricking yourself with a game like won't. Won't hit the same. Because what you need is to work on addressing that feeling first a little bit before you can get into something that feels good to. To necessarily do. And so for me, I've got a big project project at work that's. Especially when there's no deadline. Deadlines will throw me into like, well, I put it off, but like, I have to do it because I don't want to get fired. Motivation. But what anything that like, doesn't have that, like looming. I'd say looming deadline. If you are. Is the. Is this a I work for a client or I work for a company?

B (24:10)

Well, first of all, I think it's important what you said of just identifying the feelings. So let's say that they work for a client and they're feeling really discouraged. And it's very overwhelming. It's such a big task.

A (24:23)

Uh, so one of the things that I will say like the. It's such a big task. There's a whole spread on like on like how to, how to break down tasks into like the little teeny mini steps, but I don't know how. Are you familiar with getting things done? Like was David Allen? I think no. So it's. This soup is. Oh my God. A, you should look it up. It's amazing. There's an online class called getting things done like a boss. Like double your productivity in 21 days or something by like Tiago Forte. Changed my life. Absolutely changed my life. One of the biggest, one of the biggest, biggest game changers for me. Um, but David Allen's thing is like next physical action. So instead of even making a giant to do list of here's all the things I need to do that in itself visually can be overwhelming. So a, if you're using something like if you do need to write out all of the steps and assign many deadlines, something like notion or toggle or notion or like todoist anything that you can make like an outline of the tasks and the subtasks and maybe subtasks. Subtasks so that you can, what do you call it, like toggle them so that you can minimize it so that you can make it so and only have to focus on what do I need for this one step that I'm on right now? And I only have to look at three things instead of I have to look at the list of 50 things. If you're doing a physical one, I'll do like note cards where each note card is the big task and the written out to do list is there. So that instead of having a gigantic to do list, you are pretty much breaking it into like less scary looking things but getting things done. What he talks about is next next physical action. And it's pretty much what is the thing for this project, the next. Just the next thing that you need to do that is that requires an action. So if it is like I need to decide something or I need to not just like research options. It's like find two to three options for this thing. Or if it's like I need to contact this person about this thing and you don't even make the entire list. You start with what is the next thing I have to do that is very concrete that I can often do within like under 20 minutes. If it takes more than 20 minutes. I think he said 10 minutes. If it takes more than 10 minutes. It's not small enough. Uh, so. So that. That is also a way that I found that you don't. If you are someone who's, like, even making the list sounds intimidating, you can kind of start there.

B (26:58)

It's so funny you mentioned that, because when I make a subtasks, the subtasks are literally like, open my computer, open my Gmail app, open that email, read the email, think about the email.

A (27:10)

Like, get the dopamine from checking off all of the things. Yes.

B (27:14)

So there's this guy, his name is Jerry, and Jerry is a professor. He's a photography professor at the University of Florida. So Jerry divided his Photography 101 class into two different sections. There was the quantity group and the quality group. And the quantity group had to produce a hundred photos all semester to get an A. They could be shit photos. They could be iPhone photos. They could be, like. They could be horrible photos. They just had to produce a hundred photos to get an A. And the quality group just had to produce one photo all semester to get an A. But it had to be an excellent photo. And he wanted to see who. What group got the most A's? Can you guess what group got the most A's?

A (27:57)

I have actually heard this story before, so. Yes. Yeah, the. The. It's the same kind of thing. So. Yes. The one who produced a lot of. A lot of quantity. And it's the same thing in design school, why they made us do, you know, 50 to 200 thumbnails before you finish a logo. Like, people think you, you know, do the first thing you think of, and it's like the first thing you thought of is not the best thing pretty much ever. Yeah.

B (28:22)

And the content too. Like, you know this. Like, you have thousands and thousands of social media posts. Like, you're much better off than someone that has hundreds of social media posts. And they're better quality.

A (28:33)

Right? Yeah.

B (28:35)

Yeah. Although I do feel like your output is so high.

A (28:39)

Thank you. I think you're talking to me from a few years ago, back before I had, like, running a business responsibilities. And I'm like, why can't I get back to that spot? And it's like, oh, I guess when you take on a lot more means you've got a lot less space on your plate. But the thing with content back in the day was really like, to. When the creative flow hits, if you're not in a space to produce it, capturing those ideas in, like, notes. So I would literally just go and write down, like, the tiniest Little thing to jog my memory or voice note or whatever the thing is. And so that later when it's like, okay, I do have time to work on content, you're not sitting down. Like, what do I make? Let me sudden. You can't, like, summon inspiration in that moment. And instead you get to, you know, kind of, like, look through the stuff or even if I'm not feeling like I want to do anything, just, like, scrolling through some ideas and being like, you know what? This isn't it. But this made me think of something else. And so I kind of got out of that habit. And then I'm sitting around like, why is content so hard? And so I'm glad we're talking about this. Cause I was like, wait, I had a. I had a strategy for that.

B (29:45)

Yeah, impulsivity is important. Like, I find with my clients, the top performing posts. Like, I. I have my content club where I give people the. The prompt. I'm like, danny, here's the prompt you're gonna make today. I sit with you on zoom for an hour until you actually do it and actually post it. And then we, like, like, and comment. And this is with a hundred people every single day. I. Yeah, it's really great. But. But I find that even though that works really well and people get great results, the viral videos come or the viral posts come from impulsivity, they don't come from content club. They come from, like, yeah, the idea they got in the shower on a walk. And I'm just like, literally pull over to the side of the road and record it right there. Even if the audio and lighting sucks, you'll have a first draft. Or, like, literally write out and post. Like, make the TikTok and put it on private, like, just so you have something.

A (30:32)

It's because it's human. Like, I've had quite a few, you know, like, and it's hard because I had some for a long time. Like, my. My post that went viral on, you know, TikTok that were getting, like, 8, 9 million views were, like, explaining, you know, things I didn't realize were ADHD related. And then, you know, this was four years ago or whatever, and talking about, like, delayed sleep phase syndrome or, like, auditory processing disorder, and a lot of stuff that people talk about now, which is exciting, but nobody was really talking about it then. And so being able to spread that awareness was great. But I had this idea in my head that's like, oh, this is what people want. And so, like. But I didn't like teaching. I liked Kind of conveying these lived experiences and these stories. And so as soon as I started to put pressure on myself to change my content style to sort of try to engage people in the way that I had seen them, like pattern recognizing engaging, then it started to become work and it wasn't as fun anymore. But now that like with I've had viral videos take off about the anti Planner and they are the human stories of where I did not script anything. I just sat my phone down and just was often upset about something and just filmed myself for like 8 to 10 minutes and then went in and just chopped, chop, chop, chop, chop, chopped it out and then grabbed the good part and put it at the beginning and then threw some B roll over it and that those are the ones that come from someplace like real. And I think that people can hear the humanity because most of us aren't that good of actors. You know, you can write an amazing script, but it doesn't sound the same as the inflection that you get from just like off the cuff.

B (32:07)

Yeah, it's like the emotions, like when you get that idea on the spot, you're in the emotional state that it takes to really deliver that message. So in these, you know, you could obviously have the idea and be like, oh, I'm going to talk about, you know, how I produce my book and, and like, oh, I'll film that later. But like you're saying we're not great actors and if you're not already in that emotional state, but when you're in the emotional state, you don't have to act. It's just like true. You, you don't have to put on a front or a face. Just like conversation.

A (32:35)

I was like, and that's what the profession, right? And it, and it, it gets rid of the perfectionism because I'm not trying to sit down and, and where is my beginning and where is my end and where is my middle and how do I get there and how long will this be? And um, you know, like you're not min. Maxing in the way that often I find myself wanting to, to sort of like plan stuff out and instead like that it literally feels so organic and then. But you have to have the, I have to but like have the taste and the knowledge to be able to go through. And instead of just being like, okay, what do I keep. It's like I'm getting. Or sorry, what do I get rid of? It's like I'm getting rid of everything. What do I keep? Like what can't not be in this video and like, what idea am I trying to get across? And so the ones that went viral were like, also both reactions to people's comments because one of them was the counter. So I have, I have Chinese counterfeiters like reproducing the anti planner with full of typos and I couldn't. I was having a hard time keeping up for Black Friday. And so like, I was pretty, pretty like upset about it. And I didn't want to be that girl who's like crying on the Internet, you know. But also I was holding back a lot of emotions because I didn't want to be that girl crying on the Internet. I'm glad I, I'm glad I got over it and posted it because it went gangbusters. But it's one where like, I was so afraid to let vulnerability show, even though my whole brand is vulnerability, because I was like, I don't want to accidentally manipulate people, but like, people just want to know what's real and true. And there's so many people out there who don't know that something like that could happen to them. And like that sharing that experience that you are having that like other people might not be privy to. And I think that's a lot of like what I love about like your content too is being able to come at it from this angle of like pretend, like fake it, fake it till you make it energy. But truly like, you have to just stop caring, like, stop caring so much and just move. And then once you're already moving, the momentum is easier. But like, I think you're speaking, you know, in the same way that I try to, to a lot of people who are just like stuck because there's no inertia there. They're like, I, until I have it perfectly planned, I can't move forward. And I find myself there a lot of times. But like, because now I feel like I've got stuff to lose. Right. Once you've got kind of, sorry, I'm just going sideways. But like going into an area where I feel like you've probably got a lot of people you work with who just can't. That was a get started. Is there sort of like typical things that you do in that situation that helps you?

B (35:17)

Yeah. I will say this is one of the like, limiting beliefs that I haven't experienced a lot myself, so I haven't had to move through. I got really bad grades in school. My parents always told me that I was like a C student. Like, I didn't have big expectations of me. So I didn't go into adulthood having big expectations. I went into, like, adulthood in my career having really low expectations. And I think that that was actually quite a blessing because I don't have perfectionism. But what I tell my clients that are experiencing this, like, perfectionism is what is the absolute tiniest, minimum viable product version, One babiest step you can do. And that usually gets their momentum. So if they're like, I want to start a podcast. Well, what's the absolute tiniest domino? Okay, you want to start a podcast where you're interviewing people about technology. Can you just text a friend about technology and use their quote in a LinkedIn post? Like, that is actually the first step. Or maybe they want to write a book. Can you just make a Twitter or Instagram thread that's two sentences about the book topic, like, what is the fucking tiniest domino? And that usually helps people. Which I think there's actually a domino.

A (36:26)

Illustration in your book. Yeah, yeah. And where you're like, built as I building it up. And, you know, one of my favorite activities that I go to time and time again in the perfectionism section is like, how to half asset where it right. It is the, like, separating the must haves from the nice to haves. And it's like, what absolutely cannot be, like, this thing cannot be complete without the list of must haves. And everything else is gravy. And so you do the must haves first. And. And there's so much stuff on the nice to haves that, like, I would have spent so long on, you know, making it pretty or. Or making it perfect. And a lot of times, once I get the must haves done, like the MVP done, it's like, okay, how much do I care about doing the other stuff? And sometimes it's like, oh, I've got time left. I do want to go and make it pretty. And sometimes it's like, I just want to be done, actually. So I think that. That. That sort of relief and that I honestly like your kind of like your take on this even better. Which isn't even just like, what is the must haves and nice to haves. It's like deconstructing it further from, like, babes. How do you take your. Your crappy first car that you're trying to make and like, literally make a bicycle? Yeah, like you. Or a skateboard. Like, around, like, oh, make a skateboard. Or, you know, a bicycle. You're like, you literally need a skateboard. Like, you need the tiniest thing. And the more Intimidating. You make it. The harder you make it, the harder it's going to be to get started. Yeah.

B (37:50)

But I love, I want to break down the cheat code that you have, which is like the nice to haves and the must have. So let's say your goal is to do a webinar, right? What do you need on that webinar? You need a topic, you need zoom, you need people to sign up. Like what you don't need is you don't need breakout rooms, you don't need branding, you don't need a landing page, you don't need all of that. And so I guess that would be like in the nice to have. I love that. I love that.

A (38:18)

Right? And it's, and I find that like it, it's not, it is a place to kind of keep a to do list. But instead of just being like, these are high priority and this is low priority because my brain's like, everything is high priority. It really separates that into like having to ask yourself what actually is this thing that I'm doing and what, you know, isn't it? And so it kind of goes back to that whole idea, you know, with content where, where it's like, assume I'm getting rid of everything, what has to stay. And I feel like I got, I don't know if you've read the like Marie Kondo, like life changing art of tidying up or whatever, but it's essentially the same thing that's like assume that you're getting rid of everything and pick the stuff you love instead of standing there and try to figure out what don't I like enough to get rid of. And it's such a different sort of like feeling. And yeah, I just, I, I think.

B (39:10)

I went too hard on the Marie Kondo one time.

A (39:14)

I did that too. I'm like, well now I don't have anything and I have to spend money.

B (39:17)

I'm like, I'm never going to wear this. And I'm like, wait, where's that dress? I want to wear it at like I shouldn't have anyways. Yeah, sometimes go too hard. Which actually brings me to another cheat code of yours, which is let go of the idea that one magic system will stick with you forever. Tell me more.

A (39:35)

So the idea that there's some sort of like silver bullet out there with productivity especially or any sort of like self improvement technique really like was so toxic for me for a long time. It's like, look at all like I'm just gonna read all of these, all of these Self help books and I'm gonna watch these online classes or I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna fix me, I'm gonna fix myself, and then things won't be so hard, right? And, and then I'd start something, I'd start bullet journaling, I'd do whatever it is and it'd be awesome and I'd feel so proud of myself. And then inevitably I get bored or I miss it, you know, miss a day, whatever happens. And like, like life happens and my brain is not built for consistency and I was continually just like expecting myself to be consistent and then continually disappointing myself and letting that then affect my, my hope in trying other things. Because you learn you've got baggage. That's like, I failed at all of this stuff. Why would this be different? And I, my ADHD coach, Dusty Chapora, had an amazing thing she said to me a few years back, which was like, okay, well, what if instead of trying to find a system, your system is that you have a hundred systems because that's what you're already doing. You're flipping back and forth between them based on what you need in the moment, and then as soon as it doesn't serve you anymore, you get rid of it and you get to find something else. And so that now being the criteria for success, which is what do I need in this moment and give myself full permission to drop it and move on to something else. Because that novelty is going to work for me when that's the plan. I am, I am living according to the plan all the time now, right? Instead of like, oh, I'm broken for thinking the assumption was like, I need to stick with one thing.

B (41:19)

Yeah, yeah, there's this quote, this quote that's about religion, but I think it's true to productivity advice. That's like, there's 8 billion people in 8 billion paths. So it's like, take what resonates, leave what doesn't. Like what is true for you and where you're at right now and knowing that it flexes. Like, I, I think that what I see in perfectionism too is there's this thing where it's like, I have to find the right answer. Like, it's like, there is a right answer. I have to figure out what that is and I have to stick with it forever or I'm broken. And like the truth is just like anything and just like your diet, like even your diet, it's not, there's not a right answer. There's not a right diet. That's Perfect for everyone and that you're going to have for the rest of your life. No, based on your body changes, your lifestyle changes, where you live, like, all this stuff, it's going to flex and change based on what you need. And I think that's true for your productivity systems too.

A (42:10)

I think that the, that like, definitely, you know, even when you say like, diet and for the longest time I was. Had this like, suit, I was either like, eat and drink anything I want to, regardless of how it makes me feel the next day. You know, as far as like, well, like, I don't feel great. Um, or, or I'm gonna have. I'm gonna like, track every single calorie and I'm gonna only eat these things, right? And I, I just would swing between those pendulum and, and the reality was like, where I finally ended up landing at a good spot was like, I, I was like, eat what makes me happy and what makes me feel good. Um, but I do try to like one and I've got it in the, in the book, which is, it's called One better Choice, which is like every day I try to just make one, one better choice than I would have on, you know, any others. And so for. What that means for me is I go to, you know, I'm getting drive through, we're going to McDonald's or something, and they ask what size I want. And I used to just get like a large everything. And I'm like, you know what? I am going to get a medium soda because I don't actually, I still want Dr. Pepper, I don't want Diet Dr. Pepper, but I don't like, need a large one. A medium one would be fine. And like, I'll be good, right? And so that's not to say like, and in that moment, if it's like, what I want right now is a large, then I'm going to get it. But like, having that thought of like, I don't need to restrict myself. I just need to sort of make a choice that feels like empowering to me without feeling like, restrictive. So. Sorry, that went. That was sideways. But like, the one better choice does apply with other stuff where like, oh, I, you know, this is so dumb. But like, people with ADHD often get it. I, I will drop something on the ground and my brain is like, leave it. Like all, like, leave it. Like, I have to choose to get the thing that I dropped half of the time. Not always, but like some of the times it's like, or, or I see something and my brain goes like, leave it. And a lot of times I would have left it and I, I'll start to even move and my brain will go. That's what old Danny would do. And I'm like, new Danny is gonna grab that wrapper and put it in the trash can. And so then I'll go and I'll take it. And it's like, haha, old Danny, you know, and. And like, literally that's it. It's like one better choice can. Can really help you turn into, you know, the new version of yourself by recognizing the old habits that you were doing that are no longer, like, serving you and you don't want to bring into your future.

B (44:35)

Yeah. I think the cheat code that's really important here is like micro steps and eliminating shame. The minute you bring shame into it and being like, well, why the. Are you at McDonald's at all? Like, you, you. Sometimes that will happen in your brain, that could happen externally, whatever. But I love that it's like an elimination of shame. And it's a small step because they do compound. Maybe today the step is like in between your calls, instead of scrolling on your phone, you're just gonna like, pace around your house for five. The five minutes in between, like, even that little micro step now opens up new availability for you to where the next day you might be like, actually, I felt really good. On my next call, I'm just going to like do five jumping jacks and sit back down. Right. Like, it starts to develop these microhabits, but it cannot be in the context of shame or it will do the opposite.

A (45:22)

Yeah. Because then you start to associate it with these like, negative feelings. And like, honestly, the pressure that people put on themselves is what, what, what, you know, causes the shame. Because like, until I understood this, I would say like, guilt and shame, like, they were the same thing and they're not. Like, guilt is often like, I did something and I like, feel bad and shame is like, I am a bad person or I am not living up to who I think I want to be. This person and who I'm being or who I'm. Like how I'm behaving does not align with who I want to be. And that gap is where the shame comes in of like, I feel like I should know better or I feel like I should do better. And so being able to, you know, release some of that shame is to be able to look at those expectations of what type of person I expect myself to be and be like babes. No amount of coping skills and no amount of meds are going to make you not have ADHD anymore. Like, you can't. You. You will not be neurotypical. I don't know how to tell you this, but, like, if that's. If that is your expectation for what done, what happiness looks like, what. What goal you are trying to achieve, you. You will constantly let yourself down and feel ashamed all the time, because that's just not in the cart. You got to play the cards you're dealt. Not be like, I want a different game, though, and new cards. It's like, well, no, this is, you know, this is what you got. And so you can really feel empowered then by that and being like, there are so many strengths that I have because my brain goes all over the place where it's like, ugh, I just need to sit down and fucking focus. But some of my best ideas come from when I got distracted. So it's like those things that are really great in some moments often pop up in other moments, like, oh, this terrible thing that I hate about myself because it's making me not do the thing I needed to do. I'm like, yeah. But then think about how it also applies in ways that you do. Like, because that does happen.

B (47:12)

Yeah, I love that. That's such powerful reframing. Okay, I have another cheat code that I want to bring up because I. I help people do this when it comes to content, and it's in your book, and I find this really interesting. And that's like, when you're in insecurity and you're kind of like, you've boiled it down to knowing, like, oh, I'm kind of, like, afraid people judge me. I'm insecure because. Let's say I'm insecure because I. I'm afraid my music is bad, and I don't want to put it out on YouTube because the blah, blah, like, what you. The cheat code you offer is specifically identifying, well, who. Are you afraid to see your music? Like, actually, who is that person? Tell. Tell me about that.

A (47:59)

So I. I think you're talking about the, like, shutting up, scumbag brain. I think so. Which is like, the little scumbag Steve, you know, hat. But the idea of, like, who. Oh, who. Yeah, whose judgment are you afraid of? Right. Or that that one is. Is like, what are my negative beliefs? And, like, who told me that? Like, who helped me believe that that was true? But this other one, which is the, like, I should, you know, list, and it's like, what is the thing that, like, yeah, I'm. I'M afraid of. But like, am I afraid of myself judging me or somebody else judging me or both or. And so being able to go, like, I am afraid to post for a long time on YouTube because I am afraid that people are going to be mean about my appearance and I am afraid that that was going to break me. I am afraid that it's going to like, you know, live in my head and not be able to stop being something I like, obsess about or focus about. And something that I has really stuck with me is the idea that like, was it Eleanor Roosevelt? That like, no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. And so being able to recognize that like, if I am hurt, deeply hurt by something someone said, it's because I secretly believe that about myself and feel like they have, they can see the me that I'm afraid of people seeing. And so but if you're a basketball player and you're seven feet tall and someone comes up to you and tries to tell you you're short, you're like, what's the matter with you? No, I'm not. Like, you are dumb and I am tall and okay, whatever. Like, go ahead and live your life thinking that I'm short. It doesn't matter to me. And I don't believe you. Versus if you are a short person, you know, if you consider yourself short and somebody comes up and calls you short and that is something that you are self conscious about because you think that means something. Like it will generate all of this, you know, fear. So with the, the, oh, I'm worried that people are gonna say mean things about my, you know, appearance if I go on YouTube, I'm like, that's a me. That's a me thing. That is a me thing to work on. And then truly now that I get on there, I and post some stuff and people are like, oh my God, you've got a five head. I'm like, I know. Isn't it great? Give me your engagement. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. Make my engagements go up.

B (50:15)

It is so funny. Like, it is silly because they don't. Like, every time I see a mean comment, I'm like, you're making me money. Like, you're literally putting money in my pocket by comments. I know. Like, do you realize that you are contributing to my success? Like, you're trying to be mean, but you're like putting a penny in my bank account. Thank you, that's awesome.

A (50:35)

No happy person comments, stuff like that on the Internet. Every time I see Any comment like that? I'm like, you must love your life. No one who loves their life is online, like cyber bullying people.

B (50:50)

It's so silly. Yeah. I also think of it as, like, I'm not going to take advice from someone that's not like, more successful than me in some area. So, like, if somebody's giving me finance advice, but they're not making money, they're broke, I'm not going to take it. Somebody gives me relationship advice, but they're in a shitty relationship, like, I'm not going to take it. You know, that's also like the trolls. Like what, you know, what is. Where are they coming from? Like, from the sad place.

A (51:16)

Yeah. So being able to look at those, those like, whose judgment am I afraid of? And like, also with, you know, with the music thing or with content, whatever it is, if you have really high taste, if you, if you've got really great taste, there's this like, Ira Glass quote that's also one of my favorites. Right. That's pretty much your, Your work disappoints you because of your taste. Because the gap between your ability and your taste is the bigger it is, the more you're disappointed by your own work because you know what you want it to look like or sound like or be like. And it's only through repetition and putting in the work and putting in those reps that you will be able to close that gap between where you are and where you want to be. Uh, because all you have, he says you have to do bad work. You have to do a lot of bad work in order to get to, you know, to that spot. But there are people who don't have amazing taste and they make something or, or you show them something and they're like, oh, my God, it's amazing. It's like, it's because you don't know better, you know, but like, if you've got amazing taste, that's why you're so hard on yourself, is you're like, but it doesn't compare to what I want it, you know, to be versus looking at it as like, I'm in a certain stage on, I'm on the escalator. But like, you gotta, you know, and then once you're up there, you will much more likely be able to, to meet your own expectations. But I think that that's some of the insecurity and some of the judgment is like, I'm judging myself, I'm criticizing myself. Like, I'm expecting myself to be a professional level person at this Even when it's something new. I'm trying to. Yeah.

B (52:50)

I also think it's like, there's. It's like, teaching or entertaining or helping or whatever. People, like, one rung below you on the ladder. So, like, this is an infinite ladder, and there's always people that know more than you and are more talented than you, and there's always people that know less than you and are less talented than you. So, like, even in the example of, like, you want to share your. You want to share about coding, but it's day one of your coding boot camp, and you're not a coding expert yet, but you can share how you got into the coding bootcamp, why you chose it, what you're learning in it, how you're studying. Like, there's all these ways you can look what, one rung below you on the ladder in that certain topic. And then even in art, like, yes, maybe your music is shitty because it's your third draft, but what is great about it is you did. You did it for the first time. You finally produced the thing. Like, how can you teach other people to inspire other people without having to have it perfect?

A (53:41)

You know? And the vulnerability thing of, like, processing my emotions, Like, I'm not saying everyone has to do it, but it is engaging because people like to hear others say the quiet part out loud, especially if they haven't connected the dots yet. But when you're talking about the coding boot camp, right. My immediate reaction is like, film about why you were afraid to do it.

B (54:02)

Oh, wow.

A (54:02)

Like, film. Right? Film about why you've been putting it off film. Like, what was it that finally got you to do it? Because someone's gonna hear that who has. Who has been stuck. Stuck where you're stuck. And you. You starting. And them hearing their story in you can inspire them to. I gave myself goosebumps. But, like, that's what it is, is, like, connect. You don't even just have to be connecting what you're learning. And when you're already doing it, the. The people right below you on the ladder are struggling to make that step up. And if you're going on that step, you're like, here's. Here's what got me to the step in the first. You know, in the first place. Yes.

B (54:42)

I love that. Wow. Okay, I have one question for you, and then we'll have one final cheat code.

A (54:48)

Sweet.

B (54:49)

Have you adjusted your language at all? Like, I noticed in the book, you have a section about cognitive distortions, and one of the parts is, like, about black and white thinking. You know how to identify and avoid that about like should thinking, identifying and avoiding it. And I'm wondering if there's any. If you deliberately change your language or you have changed your language in order to avoid black and white thinking. Avoid. Like, do you have personal bad words? Like, I know I have personal bad words.

A (55:14)

Okay, you're not saying, like, do you incorporate therapy speak into your every day? I feel like, like legally blind was just like, I feel comfortable using legal jargon. I'm like, I feel comfortable using therapy jargon in my everyday life.

B (55:26)

What I'm saying is like, I don't let my clients use the word should have to need to stuff like that or assign black and white thinking. And that's helped me and my clients and like ADHD the shame. And I'm curious if you've like incorporated that.

A (55:41)

I, My husband and I do have a black blacklist on should. Especially when it's you should instead of you should. It is if you wanted to, you could try or you could try. Or if you, you know, if you wanted to, you could. And phrasing it like the, you know, giving someone their agency back essentially versus saying like, this is what you should do and if you don't, you're doing it wrong. And if it doesn't turn out the way I, you know, said, then too bad. But so should I have very much clock the over apologizing and apologizing for things. Oh my God. My favorite thing to do is when people re. Because it's a reflex, especially with women or you know, and, and. And it's just like, I'm going to neutralize the potential of you reading me wrong and everybody does it. So it's not a big deal when people apologize to me for something silly or small or like they had to like, hey, could I get a glass of water? And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, sorry. I'm like, you should be sorry. And I just dead like a deadpan face. You should be sorry. And they go, oh. Because then they're a little defensive like, no, I shouldn't. Oh, oh, I see what you did there. Right. Like you got to mind trick them a little bit. So. So yeah, the. The feeling guilty for things that like have, you know, you don't need to feel guilty about is. Is a big one too for me.

B (57:05)

Wow, that's crazy. Okay. I love that. And yeah don't you should in a relationship, like, nobody feel. Nobody makes behavior change by saying should to someone.

A (57:13)

Oh. Oh. The. The other thing with the. You mentioned, the black or white thinking is that my fractional CEO on my team has introduced me to this concept of first draft, worst draft. And so instead, you know, which is essentially like, MVP or, you know, shitty first draft or whatever the thing is. But like, first draft, worst draft, and me writing it out at the top of my document is a reminder that it should be bad. It's got the word worst in it. It's not like, what is the minute? You know, what is the minimum? Like, what is like. Because my brain still wants it to be good. And instead of this permission to just, like, make it bad on purpose. And so I think that that reframing of. And also first draft, worst draft, like, to. To combine it with, like, this is not the final. And this every. There's only up from here.

B (58:08)

Wow, that's so good. I'm gonna. I'm gonna talk about that on my content club tomorrow.

A (58:12)

Yeah. First name is Kay Anderson. Yeah, Kay Anderson. They have a podcast called Project Management Happy Hour. It's amazing.

B (58:19)

Okay, I'm literally writing this down. Okay, so final cheat code we are assigning to our audience. And this is. Instead of creating a to do list right now, we can create a Ta Da list and celebrate some of the things that we've done. So what is the Ta Da list?

A (58:37)

I was literally.

B (58:38)

If you're listening, you have to do this right now.

A (58:41)

I literally. You were like, last cheat code. And I'm like, I want to talk about the Ta Da list. And you were like, tell.

B (58:46)

Oh.

A (58:46)

Like, as soon as you started talking, I was so excited because I was like, I can tell it's going to be the one I want. Oh, my God, you're amazing. I love this so much. So the Ta Da list is the idea that instead of writing down a to do list of things that you, like, have to do, and then feeling disappointed in yourself that you didn't do all of those things, instead keeping track of a list of the stuff that you did do already. And then after you've done it, you write it down and cross it off. And so a lot of times I would, like, I do it on my phone with a little just again, the notes app with a very, very simple, like, checklist options. And I would sit down halfway through the day, I'm eating lunch, and we'll just type out took a shower, took my meds, texted my mom back, you know, and they don't have to be big tasks because sometimes you get to the end of the day and it's like, oh, My God, I didn't do anything. But if you, if I wrote down, made a new playlist that made me happy, you know, like, threw away the leftovers in the fridge. Like, they are things that you might not have ever put on a to do list, but you did do them. So if you actually look at it like, you don't get through a day and not have done anything unless it's like, I was couch mode and you know, truly not doing anything. But, like, there's a lot to be said for giving yourself credit for a lot of the things that you don't even realize are awesome and do add up. We only think about it in terms of what would I write on a, like task list versus what are these invisible things that you're doing without even thinking about it. So. And once you start doing it, it can also get like, addictive where it feels good and I want, I want to write it down on my list and I will like go do the thing just so I can make my list longer. So. Yeah, it's worked really well for me in the past. I, uh, but it again is one of those things where I'll do it for a while and then I forget about it. And then with the anti planner, when I'm like, I'm feeling a little down on myself, um, and like I'm not getting a lot done and then I, I flipping through, I'm like, oh, right, like us having this conversation. Like, I do need to start doing this again. I, like, starting today, I'm literally going to sit down after this call and go and make a ta da list because it's going to make me, it's going to make me feel good.

B (60:56)

Well, I am too. And so is our audience. I encourage you guys to write five things. Yes, right now. Love it. Well, thank you, Danny, for coming on. Danny, where can everyone find you?

A (61:08)

I am at Danny Donovan. D A N I D O N O V A N on Blue Sky, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, TikTok and now Blue sky and I guess Instagram. But so I am there for social media. And then my website is adhdd.com or antiplanner.com and so the adhdd.com has all my comics and my merch and ADHD TikToks and then antiplanner.com is what's got the, the anti planner, which is like $10 off right now. But it's. Yeah, it's, it's pretty, pretty helpful. And we now sold over, so it's self published. And I've sold over a hundred thousand now. And so I'm really excited to be able to. Thank you. Thank you. But I'm really excited to get to know people. And if anybody has listened to this and found things helpful, please tag me, because I love seeing that.

B (62:03)

I love it. Well, thank you, Dani. Okay, y', all, if you like this episode, you would love, love my Patreon. Okay? You get exclusive access to me, exclusive content, tons of other resources, and a lot of juicy shit, okay? So I hope to see you on my Patreon.