Un-Gatekeeping Fame with Whitney Uland

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Un-Gatekeeping Fame with Whitney Uland" Slay The Gatekeeper Episode Released on October 22, 2024

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Slay The Gatekeeper, host Courtney Johnson welcomes guest Whitney Uland to delve deep into the intricacies of fame, authenticity, and personal growth. Together with Kojo, Whitney unpacks actionable strategies—termed as "cheat codes"—to navigate and harness the often intimidating landscape of fame. This episode is a treasure trove for aspiring influencers, content creators, and anyone looking to amplify their personal brand without falling prey to common pitfalls.

---

The Nature of Fame

Whitney and Kojo kick off their discussion by redefining fame not merely as celebrity status but as a valuable resource—attention—that can be leveraged positively or negatively.

Whitney [03:40]: "All right. Cheat code number one. If you want to become famous, you need to step into the identity of a celebrity."

Kojo elaborates on this by introducing the concept of "celebrity energy," emphasizing that emanating a magnetic presence is essential for attracting attention.

Kojo [04:15]: "It's this embodiment, it's this belief that it's safe to be seen and you are someone who is worthy of being watched."

---

Cheat Codes to Get Famous

Whitney and Kojo outline five essential cheat codes to achieve fame, each accompanied by insightful discussions and practical advice.

1. Step into the Identity of a Celebrity

Becoming famous requires adopting the mindset and energy of a celebrity. This involves believing in one's worthiness to be seen and continuously practicing this identity until it becomes second nature.

Whitney [03:40]: "Cheat code number one... what is that? And I knew how to be magnetic on camera... you have to show up as the person that people want to watch."

Kojo reinforces the idea that fame is a gradual process akin to personal transformations like getting fit.

Kojo [05:22]: "It's a process. It's a skill that you learn... it's literally changing your life and changing the identity of who you are."

2. Embrace Authenticity

Authenticity is pivotal in building a genuine connection with your audience. Whitney highlights signs of inauthenticity, such as maintaining private social profiles or only showcasing successes.

Whitney [10:26]: "If your Instagram is private... you're only posting trends and only when your hair and makeup is done... these are ways where people can know maybe they want to be a little more authentic."

Kojo adds that authenticity transcends the highlight reel, advocating for consistency between one's online and offline persona.

Kojo [12:02]: "If you seem like a different person online... you're the same person. Any good content creator shows who they are."

3. Overcome Fear and Relational Blocks

Fame often triggers fears related to judgment, separation from loved ones, and past negative experiences. Whitney outlines the "quantum leap relationships" that can hinder one’s path to fame, including relationships with friends, family, colleagues, and money.

Whitney [13:41]: "Any of those that there are blocks in are going to keep you from creating virality, creating fame as well."

Kojo suggests focusing on one relational aspect at a time to dismantle these blocks, emphasizing practices like EFT tapping, meditation, and setting boundaries.

Kojo [15:03]: "Pick one of those four relationships to dive into first... practice showing up authentically in those spaces."

4. Subconscious Safety for Public Exposure

Achieving fame necessitates that the subconscious mind perceives public exposure as safe. Whitney discusses overcoming internal fears and societal judgments to embrace being seen authentically.

Whitney [19:48]: "You're never too late. Anyone who says that they're too late in any way, shape or form, I'm like, that's bullshit. That's just your fear of being seen."

Kojo emphasizes the importance of marketing and self-promotion as integral parts of the journey to fame, likening neglecting these to avoiding essential life skills like taxes or finance.

Kojo [25:03]: "If you want the freedom of working for yourself, you have to get good at sales and marketing."

5. Trigger Attention Through Truth and Emotion

To capture attention, one must evoke strong emotions, whether positive or negative. Whitney introduces the concept of being a "karmic mirror," reflecting what audiences need to see to bridge the gap between their current state and their aspirations.

Whitney [30:20]: "In order to get attention, you have to be triggering negative or positive because you are a karmic mirror."

Kojo adds that authentic storytelling and radical truth-telling can magnetize an audience by showcasing genuine passion and vulnerability.

Kojo [35:01]: "Radical truth telling in your medium is what's going to get you attention. That's the essence of good art."

---

Handling Fame and Relationships

The conversation shifts to managing fame's impact on personal relationships. Whitney and Kojo discuss the importance of setting boundaries, blocking negative influences, and surrounding oneself with like-minded, supportive individuals to maintain authenticity and mental well-being.

Whitney [27:39]: "Or mute them so you forget that they're, like, following you at all... reflect on your relationship with them."

Kojo shares personal anecdotes about unfollowing detractors to foster a healthier online presence.

Kojo [28:18]: "Once I did that, that's when I started to pop off on Instagram."

---

Practical Steps to Achieve Fame

Whitney and Kojo provide actionable steps for listeners to implement the discussed cheat codes:

1. Adopt the Celebrity Mindset: Regularly practice embodying the persona you aspire to become.
2. Be Authentically You: Share genuine aspects of your life and work to build trust with your audience.
3. Address Relational Blocks: Identify and work on improving key relationships that may hinder your growth.
4. Create Subconscious Safety: Engage in practices that reduce anxiety around public exposure, such as meditation and setting boundaries.
5. Evoke Emotion Through Content: Craft content that resonates deeply, whether by inspiring or challenging your audience.

Whitney [28:33]: "Surround yourself with people who have already accomplished the goal, where the goal is normalized."

---

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Whitney and Kojo reinforcing each other’s insights, emphasizing continuous personal growth and the importance of authenticity in the pursuit of fame. They encourage listeners to embrace vulnerability, set healthy boundaries, and remain steadfast in their unique paths to ensure sustainable and meaningful success.

Whitney [37:07]: "What do your friends ask you for advice about? That's usually really, really great content territory that people aren't thinking about."

Kojo [37:32]: "If you're dreaming so big, then you'll avoid taking the next step. Much of our work is helping clients pick their next goal instead of shooting for the stars."

Whitney closes by directing listeners to her platforms for further engagement, while Courtney and Whitney remind the audience of the episode's transformative potential.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Whitney [03:40]: "Cheat code number one. If you want to become famous, you need to step into the identity of a celebrity."
• Kojo [04:15]: "It's this embodiment, it's this belief that it's safe to be seen and you are someone who is worthy of being watched."
• Whitney [10:26]: "If your Instagram is private... you're only posting trends and only when your hair and makeup is done... these are ways where people can know maybe they want to be a little more authentic."
• Kojo [12:02]: "If you seem like a different person online... you're the same person. Any good content creator shows who they are."
• Whitney [19:48]: "You're never too late. Anyone who says that they're too late in any way, shape or form, I'm like, that's bullshit. That's just your fear of being seen."
• Whitney [30:20]: "In order to get attention, you have to be triggering negative or positive because you are a karmic mirror."
• Whitney [37:07]: "What do your friends ask you for advice about? That's usually really, really great content territory that people aren't thinking about."

---

This episode of Slay The Gatekeeper offers a profound exploration of fame's nuances, providing listeners with practical strategies and motivational insights to seize control of their personal branding journeys. Whitney Uland’s expertise, combined with Kojo's relatable anecdotes, makes this a must-listen for anyone aiming to break free from gatekeeping and authentically claim their space in the spotlight.

Transcript

[Kojo]

Foreign.

[Whitney]

Welcome to Slay the Gatekeeper.

[Courtney Johnson]

I'm your host, Courtney Johnson, and I am here to un gatekeep the gatekept.

[Whitney]

Thank you so much for being here.

[Courtney Johnson]

Enjoy.

[Whitney]

Y'All.

[Courtney Johnson]

I want to share a little bit about Intuition University. If you want to learn how to stop second guessing and finally trust your gut and finally create the life you actually want, Intuition University is for you. A good friend of mine, Keisha Slaughter, put together this amazing, incredible course. I've taken it. It has personally impacted my life so, so much. Intuition University helps you stop overthinking and trust your decisions with confidence. It helps you heal your trauma and limiting beliefs that are keeping you stuck. By the way, the best way to manifest, the only way to manifest is to heal the limiting beliefs, okay? You already have everything inside of you in order to accomplish your dreams. You already have it all. It's not about gaining anything. It's about stripping away the limiting beliefs.

[Whitney]

That are keeping you stuck.

[Courtney Johnson]

Intuition University helps you align with your soul's purpose and live in flow. It feels so good to live in flow. It feels so good to get rid of that resistance. Intuition University helps you tap into higher levels of consciousness to manifest anything you desire. It helps you create a career relationship in life that feels right for you without the second guessing. Intuition University opens for enrollment October 11th and closes October 31st, so make sure you sign up before the end of October. Again, I cannot recommend this enough. Keisha is just an incredible, incredible woman. Her work has been extremely impactful and influential in my own life. And if you want to go one step deeper with your manifestation, with your content creation, with your dream building, this.

[Whitney]

Is the perfect way to do it.

[Courtney Johnson]

You can find info for the [e-mail] intuition-university I'll put it in the show notes, but spelled out, it's K A I S H A S L dash A U G H T E r dot com INTUITION dash University. You can find Kaisha on Instagram and TikTok at Kaslaughter. K A I S H A Slaughter. I am so excited for you guys to experience Keisha's magic at Intuition university. Again, that's keishaslaughter.com Intuition University.

[Whitney]

Whitney. Whitney. Whitney. Hello.

[Kojo]

Hi, Kojo.

[Whitney]

Guys, Whitney's team has a nickname for me.

[Kojo]

Yeah, my team loves Courtney and so we all call her Kojo. We'd love a Kojo moment.

[Whitney]

Oh, my God, I feel so honored. Well, I'm always sending your shit to my clients because I'm like, you Guys need to. You need to work on this. You need to work on the fear of being seen.

[Kojo]

Yeah. Yeah. It's so fun. I love hearing people say that because, I don't know, maybe this is just me fully being, like, full of myself, but I kind of feel like I was the first person to start talking about that, and now I hear other coaches being like, I'm helping people on the fear of being seen. And I'm like, cool. Yeah.

[Whitney]

You're like, what? That's kind of.

[Kojo]

I love that.

[Whitney]

Yeah. You're like, that's kind of my. No, you really are the only person talking about it in the context of fame. Like, you can created a category. It's really crazy.

[Kojo]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Whitney]

Yeah.

[Kojo]

I appreciate it.

[Whitney]

It's amazing.

[Kojo]

It's super fun.

[Whitney]

Okay, Whitney, you have some cheat codes for us today?

[Kojo]

I sure do.

[Whitney]

Five cheat codes on how to get famous.

[Kojo]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Whitney]

All right. Cheat code number one. If you want to become famous, you need to step into the identity of a celebrity. What. What does that mean?

[Kojo]

What? I know. So jargony. It's so life coachy. It's such bullshit. Okay, so let me. Let's just break down. So I like to say famous, just the resource of having people's attention. So it's an asset, it's leverage that you can create. Right. But the way that you do that is you do step into an identity of someone who feels safe being seen and you ultimately. So I. I can up with the phrase celebrity energy. It's kind of my coded language for the it factor. Right? But we've all had these people, right, where it's like you walk into a room and you just, like, want to watch someone. There's someone who's a leader or, for me, a celebrity. Right. I live in Los Angeles, and I don't know who a lot of celebrities are. I was raised Mormon, and I. I wasn't allowed to watch a lot of television and movies and read magazines and stuff. So I don't often know who celebrities are, but I always know that they are somebody, and you can kind of just sense that through their energy. And so I was a struggling actress in New York and could not get booked and blessed to save my life. And my manager at one point was like, I just think you don't have the it factor. I was like, fuck off. But I got obsessed with it, and I was like, what is that? And I knew how to be magnetic on camera, and I had the tools as a certified life coach, and I kind of pulled all those together and figured out exactly what it is. And it is, it's this embodiment, it's this belief that it's safe to be seen that you are someone who is worthy of being watched. And so it's the same thing. Like if, if you're someone who wants to, let's say, lose weight, you have to embody and become the person who already is fit. Right. You have to start showing up as that person. And it's the same thing with creating the resource of fame. You have to show up as the person that people want to watch and you have to feel safe being perceived by massive amounts of people for who you authentically are. And that. Yeah, that's the identity.

[Whitney]

Yeah. I think a mistake people make a lot is like thinking that there's going to be one big thing that propels them into being comfortable with fame and like they can just like quit their job today and tomorrow they're going to be a tiktoker that's fully comfortable on camera and have a whole career out of it. But it's really not a one time thing. It's like a process. It's a skill that you learn. It's like if you want to get fit, it's not going to the gym for an entire day. It's like, like literally changing your life and changing the identity of who you are.

[Kojo]

So hundred percent.

[Whitney]

It's the same, it's the same thing.

[Kojo]

And it's also, I love what you're saying. Like it's a practice, right? And with fame you have to practice it publicly, which is so embarrassing and feels so cringy. And I know you have a background as a performer so I, I feel like we have, you know, that to lean on. But I think it's different when you're stepping out as a creator and you're like, my voice matters. But you're doing it in a, in a way that people can screenshot and DM your shit around and be like, this is so embarrassing. Like who did, who do they think they are? Whatever. And so it takes a lot of vulnerability and it takes, it takes some guts, I think. And you know, I, I'm kind of on a mission to help redistribute who has. I think fame is power. Fame is a resource. You know, I think we're going to see that the election is going to be, this year is going to be heavily influenced by artists by, you know, Taylor Swift and Billie Eilish and Charlie xcx and Chapel Rowan. All of these Artists stepping out and saying who they vote for. And I think, you know, we've literally seen donations increase, we've seen people going to the poll or registering to vote very directly correlated to these timelines. And it's something that you, you have to develop over time though and really gain that capacity to be witnessed. Like I think we're even seeing right now. If my audience is all obsessed with Chapel Rowan, I don't know if it's a very artist community, but she' someone who's been very vocal about how hard it is to kind of be catapulted into fame. And I think, you know, I always talk about it is it's a quantum leap, there's a tipping point. But if you don't have that foundation where you feel safe because you've practiced, because you've shown up and put in those reps, that's I think why we have so many one hit wonders. I think that's why we have so many people that create following. I, I hear people all the time who they create a following that they'll have their first viral video which is like, you know, everyone wants to get that first million view video and then the self sabotage kicks in. Then the like the fears creep in because they don't feel safe maintaining that.

[Whitney]

Yeah, that happens with my clients a lot. They'll go viral on their first few videos and then they'll shut down and get really, really scared. And I mean that happened to me too. Like I, I went viral and I got so scared that I literally stopped posting on TikTok for two years.

[Kojo]

I did the same thing. I did the exact same thing. Well for me it wasn't by that point I was pretty good with being seen and like my first like mega viral video, I think I had like 2 or 3 million views was like a Botox fail and then I had another one that was like an eyebrow fail and I was like God damn it. Like I'm trying to make content for, to like better the world and like this is what's going viral and I didn't really care about that. But then I had a piece of content and it was something that I passionately believed in but it hurt people's feelings. I'll just give the context. So I always recommend and this is just I guess not good if anyone is wanting to make content to make content to people who already like you. Don't speak to your haters because then you're going to attract haters. And so a hack that I always say is, you know, Especially if you're used to having. Working with clients. Get on TikTok and talk as if you're speaking to a client, someone who's already given you money, and that's kind of going to put you in the energy of speaking to someone who already likes you. Well, I got off of a consult call where the person said no, and then I started filming. And you know when we have those fights and we're like, oh, I wish I would have said this. Obviously it was a consult, not a fight, but the person was not interested. And I got on TikTok and I was like, I can tell this is why you're not interested. And I. I kind of, like, broke it down. But I was essentially speaking to someone who doesn't. Who didn't like me, who said no to me. And so then I got this influx of people who didn't like me. And people were really upset and really hurt by what I was saying because. And it wasn't like a terrible thing. I was just talking about taking responsibility for your life and. But I think it just. It didn't come across appropriately because I was in the energy of, like, talking to someone who doesn't like me. And I felt so bad that I had hurt people's feelings, and I felt so. It's so hard to be misunderstood. I think you're really good at that. Just, like, you don't seem like you're bothered by it. I don't know. You tell me I'm not that bothered by it.

[Whitney]

Yeah, I feel like I've always been misunderstood. Like, my communities, like, growing up, I was like, I was in a really religious community and I was like, I just, like, thought different than people and ask questions I wasn't allowed to ask. And I don't know. So I feel like I'm used to it.

[Kojo]

You're just used to that? Yeah. See, I, like, was that person, but I hid it for a long time, I think. So, yeah, that was really challenging for me. And so, yeah, I quit posting after that for, like, two years.

[Whitney]

Yeah. Damn, that's. Yeah, that's heavy. But it shows that you can do it. You can quit, you can come back, you can work on the things, and.

[Kojo]

You'Re never too late. Do you hear. Do you hear that a lot? Like, I feel like people are always like, it's too late on TikTok. Oh, it's about to be banned. It's too late. For instance, I'm like, guys, I literally did not take Instagram seriously until March, and I'll probably Cross a hundred thousand followers this month.

[Whitney]

And it's like, same and start on Instagram this year.

[Kojo]

Yeah, same this year.

[Whitney]

And people have been saying Instagram is too late for years.

[Kojo]

So I'm like, anyone who says that they're too late in any way, shape or form, I'm like, that's bullshit. That's just your fear of being seen.

[Whitney]

Yeah, it is. People have so many excuses. Okay, cheat code number two. A good way to know if you're not being authentic is if your Instagram is private or if you're just posting wins on your socials, or you're only posting trends and only when your hair and makeup is done. Oh, my God. So these are ways where people can know maybe they want to be a little more authentic.

[Kojo]

And it's really scary because, you know, I talk about, like, you have to. If you want to pop off, you have to create the zeitgeist. You can't just follow it and you can tell. Yeah, I mean, I don't feel like I really popped off until I started saying what was actually authentic to me. Which for me at the time, it was so scary to talk about how to be famous, because I knew, I coached people on it. But for me to stand out and be like, this is truth, just. And let anyone witness it was really scary. And I didn't. For, like a year, I just sat on the idea of talking about celebrity energy, about becoming famous, about how it's a magnetism and all. All of these things. And. And so if you're just saying what other people are saying, you're only showing a highlight reel. Also, another one I feel like is if your friends and family watch your content and they're like, you don't seem like yours. Like, it's like, if you seem like a different person, like, I think this is something for anyone who's only seen you online, you're the exact same online as you are offline. Like, you're the same person. And that's the same of any good content creator is they're just showing who they are. And I can even see this in my own content, especially if I'm having an off day or something where it's like my voice changes a little bit and I just, like, shifts a little bit. So we all go through it. But yeah, I think a big one is people will say like, oh, yeah, I want to make an impact. But then. Or another one is, they'll be like, I'm just going to start a separate business account.

[Whitney]

Oh, my God, I hate people I hate it. They're like, yeah, no, no, no. Well, I'll put my art on this account or open my freelance on this account. And I' no, there is a what? You're a graphic design freelancer? You know how many fucking graphic design freelancer girlies there are? But you also are obsessed with travel and your dog, and you make chocolate and you bake and you do all this other shit. Like, putting that together makes you a category of one.

[Kojo]

Exactly. A category of one. I love how you said that. And because, I mean, you and I were talking about this last night where it's like, people are hiring us because they want us, not because of the niche. Right. And it's so cool. I do feel like I'm in a league of my own. But. But people have come to me because they're like, I heard this random story that you told about going on this date. Or, like, your upbringing with Mormonism or. Oh, you're also a single mom. Like, the people hire a person, right? And I like to think about, when I lived in New York, there was this art, like a framing gallery next. Next door to me, and it was this ma and PA shop, and I went because I needed a frame. But then I was talking to the owner, and I'm learning about his business, I'm learning about his life. I'm learning about how he inherited this framing gallery, and I'm learning all these things. And so then now I have a relationship with him, Right? And so I go. I would go back anytime I needed something framed, and I would refer my friends to him when I needed something framed. But I also just like to pop in when I didn't need something framed and bring him a coffee or say, hi or what bagels do you like down the street? Or whatever. And that's the relationship that you can create online if you show up authentically where it is parasocial. But they actually feel like they know and love you, and that's why they're coming to you, not just for the service that you're renting.

[Whitney]

Yeah.

[Kojo]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

I mean, it's crazy. People don't make logical decisions when hiring. They make emotional decisions. And we need to remember that. Like, we need to remember that because they're not hiring you because of your skill or because of your price. They're, like, hiring you because of you.

[Kojo]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

Another part of this cheat code is a good indicator that you're not being authentic, is if you won't perform or show your art in front of your friends or family or partner, that's spicy.

[Kojo]

Yeah. I was so guilty of this, where it was like, I was so willing to, especially when I was auditioning, like, you know, go sing in front of a casting director. But then my mom, like, at Christmas would be like, could you sing for us? And I'd be like, no, this is my art. Like, and just be like, pretentious about it or whatever. But yeah, or like, only rehearsing when my partner was not at home or whatever. Just I felt like my best work was in the shower. My second best work was when, like, no one was there. My third best work was in front of a casting director. And then my fourth best work was in front of family and friends. And that's where it comes down to I always say there's like. So I The four, like, quantum leap relationships, and these are the ones that are keeping you from popping off. So the first is gonna be your relationship with your friends and family. How willing are you to let them see you for who you authentically are? And maybe there are boundaries you need to set or you're just not allowing them to see you. Second would be in with your colleagues, right? The peers, the people that you would maybe see yourself not competing against, but people who are offering the same service as you. Third is gonna be romantic relationships. And then fourth is your relationship to money. So any of those that there are blocks in are going to keep you from creating virality, creating fame as well.

[Whitney]

What are some ways you can start to overcome those blocks? Or like, dive deep.

[Kojo]

That's the work, right? I always recommend people pick one of those four relationships to dive into first. So where do you feel the most blocked? So money is just a mirror of how worthy you see yourself. So that's. That's just a direct reflection of yourself. I think some people also like to swap that one in with like, physical health. So if that's a place that if you're like, eh, all the others feel good. But physical health, you know, physical health and money are both just very correlated to how you see yourself and how worthy that you believe that you are. So I always recommend you pick one of those four. So again, it's. It's family and friends, it's colleagues, it's romantic partners, and it's money. So picking the one that it feels the most blocked. And then practice, practice showing up authentically in those spaces and practice showing more of yourself. So I always have my processes. I call it rewire your brain. So become clear, outsmart your brain. Figure out what you're afraid of. Right? And you know, I just told you, it's. It's one of those four relationships always. And so outsmart it. Figure out what your brain is trying to protect you from by not showing up, being safe. And the second is going to be the nervous system regulation. So actually creating somatically safety in your body. So that's eft tapping. It's meditation, it's breath work, it's yoga. I mean, meditation, right? It's like, that's the one thing that everyone preaches and no one will do. Right? But I'm like the only coach probably in the world that like, doesn't really believe in confidence because I think confidence has a, a little bit of a fake it till you make it. Or it can be, depending, you know, semantics. But everyone has a different definition. But I, I'm not a believer in fake it till you make it, because I think that then if you're faking it, it's the same. Like, your energy is. It's like a body odor. People can sense it. And sometimes when we're stinky, like, we don't smell it on ourselves, but other people can. It's the same with your energy. And so you can be faking it and pretend like you're confident, but people are still. If you have that, that's also what's going to keep people scrolling past your videos. There's no, like, reason. There's. It's not like you could watch it. You could, you can have. And especially, like, I feel like my, the people who are. A lot of people who come to me are, I, I joke. They're like my research cats, where they're people that are, like, always listening to the gurus, always, like, reading the pot, reading the books, listening to the podcast, like, trying to get everything right. They're really good students. So, you know, they're doing, they have the hook, they have the. They're doing. They're putting on their lip gloss in the first. Like, they're doing all the things that everyone says to do to make a video go viral, but it's just not working. And that's because you have this, like, energetic body odor. And most people would, wouldn't be able to point to, oh, this is the problem. Right. And that's why I think there's so many quote unquote techniques that don't actually work for everyone. And it's because if you don't feel safe being perceived, people will just scroll past you.

[Whitney]

Yeah, I see that a lot in my work too. Especially people that they want, like a content formula that's going to guarantee their success without them having to feel any bad feelings. And I'm like, that's just not, not going to work.

[Kojo]

It's not a thing.

[Whitney]

You gotta, you gotta be weird. You got to be embarrassed. You got to like feel bad almost sometimes. Like when you're stepping into that or you're probably not being authentic to yourself.

[Kojo]

Do you feel like you've gotten better at feeling embarrassed? Like, has it gotten less.

[Whitney]

Yeah, for sure. Like, I don't think anything can embarrass me now. I, I'm like an open book. I'll post about whatever. Like, at this point I don't care.

[Kojo]

I just.

[Whitney]

But I also feel like honesty is like a monetary privilege and as I make more money, the more honest I can be in my content. Because I'm not like beholden to like pleasing an industry or a client.

[Kojo]

Right, right.

[Whitney]

That also. And then that helps your art more. But it's almost like a paradox because your art gets better as you don't need it to get better.

[Kojo]

I know. Yeah. And it's frustrating too. And I, I acknowledge and I respect what you're saying. There's a privilege to it. Right. I, I also argue there can be an emotional privilege as well. For both of us as entrepreneurs. We're not really beholden. And I mean, yes, if we completely destroy our reputation in the court of public opinion, then like, yeah, we're gonna have to do some repair for that. But I've just noticed in my life, so this last year I've been going through a divorce and it's been a really fucking hard year. And I feel like everyone's probably like, whitney, shut up. Stop talking about it. We don't care anymore. But it's just like, it's been really emotionally hard for me and that has made it really hard to show up authentically online. Even though I don't make content about it. That's not my purpose. It's not. I want to protect my, my ex, my child, like all of the things. But I, I can even see now like I can watch my own content and be like, this is inauthentic. Like, but I also just know that I'm not at a place of like emotional, like super regulation. And so I think also just remembering that if you are someone who get started and you like, for me it was a little bit of a double edged sword. I had to keep showing up because it was my job. But I also think there are some people that I'm like, spend six months in therapy and then get. Get on.

[Whitney]

Oh, my gosh. Yes. Absolutely. It is so much inner work. Like, you set out, like, I'm gonna create content, whatever. I'm gonna finally put my work out there, and it's like, yeah, that's great. And also, are you prepared for, like, to go deep?

[Kojo]

Are you gonna go fudgeing deep? Yeah. I always say it's like new levels, new devils. It's just like, rooting down more and more. And are you to be seen?

[Whitney]

That's good. Okay, next.

[Kojo]

Cheat code.

[Whitney]

Cheat code number four. You're not gonna pop off until your subconscious brain thinks it's safe to do so. So you're kind of already talking about that. How do you get to safety? How do you start feeling safe being seen?

[Kojo]

Yeah. So listen, like, that's true of anything. You can only create things that you believe are possible and safe to create. So I think that there's kind of two pieces in this, because I think with fame and the definition of it is changing as the intern, as there's also now Internet fame. And a lot of my clients are very opposed to Internet fame. They're like, mom, because they're artists, and they're like, I went to theater school.

[Whitney]

That's an ego trap.

[Kojo]

It's an ego trap that's kind of like saying, I only want money if I can be born into old money. And so, yeah, I just want money. Like, money is money. Fame is fame. Right? But I think in. In the old Hollywood model, there is a lot of, like, smoke and mirrors. There's a lot of putting people on a pedestal. There's a lot of saying, like, oh, this person is special. And it seems like fame just happens to people. And then you have these people, like, the actors who do the press circuits, and they're like, I hate fame. I don't like being famous. And I'm like, off. Like, if you really hated it, then you would go do something else. Right? But I think our society really looks down upon people that want fame, because look at what's happening with everything coming out with Diddy right now, it's like, yeah, Hollywood has been kind of a disgusting place. And that's, like, why I want to help empower artists and, you know, democratize, like, who gets to have a voice and. And all of that. But the first thing is recognizing, I think, that fame is not what makes someone good or bad. It amplifies who you already are. Right. So just, like, how a kitchen knife can be used to, like, cut up veggies or to murder someone. Right? It's like fame is going to be used however the person wants it to be used. And I think, you know, you're such a good example of using it for good and to help people and to empower people. And that's like, so what so many of my clients do as well. So the first thing is, is kind of just like making peace with it and making peace with the fact that you want it. A lot of people have a lot of shame and feel like it's like a little dirty, little secret to. To, like, admit that they want to be famous because there are. They've been raised religious or raised just in a way that, you know, their family, their friends, judge and. And. And look down on Hollywood. I mean, that was definitely my. My case. So believing that it's. That is possible and then believing that it's safe. And, you know, there's. There's three main reasons that our brains don't think it's safe. The first is just going to be the fear of the unknown. Right. And I get it. Even just with the amount of fame that I have, I have someone right now who I'm like, this person makes me feel unsafe physically. Right. Like, it's the fear of the unknown, fear of physical safety. If there's someone who all of a sudden you feel like, has access to you. And that's where boundaries come in. Right. And that's why you have to practice boundaries. Practice the mental health. Practice all these things in your personal life before popping up. The second thing is going to be judgment from your friends and family. When anything that our brains perceive as a separation from our community, it's going to perceive as being dangerous. And again, you start putting yourself out there, your family and friends, it's like, they're gonna think you're cringe. They're gonna think you're crazy. They're gonna be like, who do they think they are at first? And so your brain can perceive it as. As separation. And it's like, afraid of becoming outgrowing people, right?

[Whitney]

Like, yeah, you will.

[Kojo]

Yeah. And you will. And it's hard. Yeah.

[Whitney]

No one talks about that. But if you do want to level up in any part of your life, honestly, you probably are going to outgrow people.

[Kojo]

Yeah. And I think you're going to see who your real friends are. Right. Because you're gonna see the people that are like. Like, my best friend, she's incredible. Like, she's witnessed my growth and, like, she's creating that as well. And, like, has been so supportive. And then I'VE had other friends who just got jealous and dropped off. Right. And just like kind of disappeared. And. And so you do see, like you can like sense people out a little bit clearer from the get of whether or not they just want something from you. Once you have a commodity, whether it's fame or money that the other people want access to, your awareness gets more like, tied in. Like you can just tell a little bit faster if that's what something, what someone is going after. Because people will say all the right things to you. Especially like in Hollywood, I feel like as soon as you have even just a little bit of fame, everyone knows what to say to, to try and like, lure you in and get you to the next quote, unquote, get you to the next level. The third thing that your brain is gonna be afraid of is gonna be any past negative experience. So if you've had a negative experience in the spotlight, you did go viral and then your nervous system freaked out, you got laughed off stage, you tried and you failed, whatever that is. It's just going to teach your brain that it's not safe for you to, to try again publicly. So you just, I mean, it's the same, it's the same with anything. You've got to learn that it's safe to have and that it's possible to have as well.

[Whitney]

Yeah, that's really powerful. I like the comparison you made with old Hollywood and new Hollywood because I feel like something that my clients still struggle with is being like, well, Courtney, my work is really good. Like somebody's going to find me. Somebody's going to discover me.

[Kojo]

They're not yet.

[Whitney]

No, nobody is coming to discover you. Your work doesn't speak for itself. No, you have to speak. You have to be the mouthpiece and the voice for your work.

[Kojo]

Yes. Okay, so this morning I just interviewed Chandler Bolt, who's the founder of self publishing.com and he and I were chatting about, about this. And he said that when he started his business, someone was like, you, you need to meet my friend Sam. And it was sales and marketing. And they're like, no matter what, you got to become friends with Sam. And I was telling him that the year that my business really took off was the year. So at the beginning of the year, you know how everyone sets like an intention for the year and everyone picks a word. It's like peace, surrender, whatever. Mine was marketing. I was like, I'm gonna get really good at marketing. And whether that's, you know, as an actor, you gotta get good at auditioning. Whether or you're a business owner, you gotta get good at creating content, whatever it is, that's your job. And, like, if you're outsourcing that, then you're just kind of saying you don't wanna do part of your job. And you're just saying, I don't want customers or I don't. Like, you're not entitled to customers, you're not entitled to fame. Like, you're not entitled to a successful career. It's something you have to do for yourself. And I fucking get it because I had resistance to it for so long about getting good at marketing. But that's part of the job. If you. If you want the freedom of working for yourself, you have to get good at sales and marketing.

[Whitney]

Saying I don't do sales and marketing is like saying, I don't do taxes or I don't do finance. It's like, okay, that's something you're going to have to learn. It's a skill you're going to have to learn. You can't just not do it. There's big consequences.

[Kojo]

I found that out the hard way this year when my accountant was just like, hey, babe. Hey, girl. Hey, girl. I say you owe 60k to the IRS. I was like, cool.

[Whitney]

Yeah, that happened to me, too. Yeah. Yeah. It also is crazy how quickly people go from like, what are they doing? To like, hey, girl, can I pick your brain?

[Kojo]

Oh, my God. Can I pick your brain? Kill me. Oh, God. Or like, you know what I love? So I remember distinctly, I won't call this person out, but a family member of mine, it was like, at Thanksgiving was like, how's the little Instagram thing going? Or like, the little. I think it was the little influencer thing going. And I'm just like, oh, my God, like, it's so embarrassing. Right? And then I remember having a really viral video, and they commented on it and they said something in the comments that had nothing to do with the video itself, but it was about our relationship as a family. And it was almost as if they were like, peacocking. Like they were signaling to everyone else in the comment section that they know me. And it was like this weird thing where I was like, ha, ha, ha. Like, I don't know. It's just. And now, of course, everyone is so proud of me and everyone, you know, whatever. And, you know, I think that friends and family, they're. They're triggered when you grow because it reflects to them that they're not. It reflects to them that they're not willing to Take the risks and whatever. But there's also, I think, a healthy dose of, you know, listen, like, your first pieces of content are going to be cringy. Like, they are going to be embarrassing, and people who care about you are going to be like, I don't want you to get hurt. So sometimes it can be really well meaning.

[Whitney]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, honestly, I encourage people to just make a list of those people in their life that they don't want seeing their stuff and block them. I think that it's great to set a boundary and, like, it is the advanced version to set a boundary and actually have them following you and show up, but if it's going to limit you and hold you back for, like, months or years. Block them.

[Kojo]

Block, yeah.

[Whitney]

Or mute them so you forget that they're, like, following you at all. Hide them from your story. Like, that is another option, too. You can set that boundary if you feel more comfortable sharing in a space where they're not in the space. But then maybe you should reflect on.

[Kojo]

Your relationship with them a hundred percent. It's just a mirror, right? And when I unfollowed a lot of people, people that I was like, I. It was basically like, any person who I would see and feel this, like, little panic or this little, like. Or even just sometimes I'm like, I don't know if I need to be remembered about this person who existed in my life for two months in this, like, short period of time or whatever, but just unfollowing. And then the people that I care about. I muted a lot of people from college. And once I did that, that was like, when I started to pop off on Instagram.

[Whitney]

Ooh, interesting. Yeah. Also just like, surrounding yourself with people that are doing it too. If you want to create content, if you want to put your art out, if you want to go to auditions, like, whatever it is surrounding yourself with people who have already accomplished the goal, where the goal is normalized.

[Kojo]

Normalize. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, like, for example, when you're auditioning, you don't want to do the scene as if you're trying to get the job. You want to do it as if you already have the job. Right. And it's the same thing. Like, if you're constantly around people who are striving for the goal, it's just a different energy. And you're going to stay in that energy versus going to someone who has completed the goal. They're just going to, like, normalize a whole new level for you.

[Whitney]

Yeah. Something that really, really Helped me when I was starting, was going to as many influencer events as I could. Like, influencer content creation workshop, influencer networking event. And I was like a LinkedIn influencer only at the time. And I'm pulling up being like, hey, guys, I'm on LinkedIn, like, whatever. But I wanted to get on TikTok. I knew that there was gonna be tick tockers there. And I just saw that it was normalized. I just made friends with people and I'm like, oh, this is like a normal girl. Yeah, she has like half a million followers. Cool. I can do that too.

[Kojo]

That's so cool. Honestly, when you said that, I'm like, that's work for me. Because I would, I struggle with the identity of an influencer.

[Whitney]

You do.

[Kojo]

I really do. Yeah. But I think the way that I learned that was my first video, the first video that I had that got 10,000 views. I, I'll like, always remember it because it was this moment for me where I was like, oh, that's just a result you can create. Like, I, I, I just, I kind of had this moment. And maybe this sounds silly, but I feel like your people will get this. Where I was kind of like, it feels embarrassing that I haven't had a viral video yet. Like, it was just like, in this day and age, the fact that, like, that is clearly currency. That is. And I just was like, I felt like I was the kind of person who should be able to do that, but I hadn't. And it just felt kind of like embarrassing. And then finally I feel like cracking it and, and figuring it out. It really did, like, up level my identity just to be like, oh, I could do that, you know?

[Whitney]

Yeah, you can do it again and again and again. Yeah.

[Kojo]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

Okay, we have our fifth and final cheat code. Ooh, this one is spicy. In order to get attention, you have to be triggering negative or positive because you are a karmic mirror. Oh, tell me about this.

[Kojo]

Yeah, so, okay, so to create the resource of people's attention again, fame, you trigger people. So you can do that in two ways. And it's basically what you need to do is create a gap in what they're currently thinking and what they think next. So there needs to be a gap. So that's why I say with a negative triggering. So that's the easiest thing. That is like, clickbait. That is news. That is terror. That is horror stories. That is troll baiting. That is creating an. And I, I mean, and listen, I've worked with clients who have Half a million followers that they created by triggering people in negative ways. And then they hate their audience and they're like, I hate the content that I'm creating. And they try to make something different. And they're like, okay, yeah. And that, I think, is when people are like, I hate having the resource of fam. I'm like, yeah. Cause you created an audience of people that don't like you. And like, our fear are. Are driven by fear. People that want that, right? So the opposite way, though, to do that is to positively trigger people. And this is when you become a karmic mirror for someone. So the way that I like to describe this is what you have to do is I. I always say fame is a spiritual journey. You have to transcend yourself and then you have to let people witness that. So what that means is for you, right? Like, you transcended yourself. You became an influencer. You became like an expert in what you. Helping people in their careers. And then you let people see that and you create it. You became an inspiration for people. I mean, I remember, right? Growing up, Mormon women did not work. And if they did, they weren't. They were doing some job that did not require education, that did not make a lot of money, right? And the first time I heard about a woman making a million dollars from home changed my life. And I was like, I'm sorry, what a woman. And it was my first life coach, Brooke Castillo, and she said that, and it changed something in me because she had heard someone else do that. And when it changed that in me, then I was like, oh, maybe I could do that. And this year I'll hit my first million and I'm essentially a work from home mom, right? That's what can happen is when you transcend your own limiting beliefs and you grow. And whether that's. Then you share your music, you share your content, you. You sell a course, you, whatever. It triggers people because it shows them a gap from where they are. So I'm just so grateful for the people that have done that for me and have reflected back to me where my gaps are and shown me, oh, my God. Like, I just today I saw someone who was like, I host a mastermind for women going from seven to eight figures. And I was like, there are women that, like, there's enough women who can go to. From seven to eight figures, right? It's just these expanders. And I'm just so grateful for her that she showed that online. And I think that wherever you're at, there was a time that A million seemed crazy to me. So I get that if that's, if that number feels crazy to your audience, but finding the people that are a couple of steps ahead of you and letting them expand your vision, I also.

[Whitney]

Would advise to not necessarily go like, yes, have expanders that are like 10 steps ahead, but also if you're working one on one with people, you're taking courses, do that with someone only a few steps above you.

[Kojo]

Because a hundred percent you go too.

[Whitney]

Much, that's going to be way too much of a jump. Way too much of like nervous system freak out.

[Kojo]

Yes.

[Whitney]

I've just seen people like, fail that way because they think that they can again have this like, like huge transformation rather than taking the steps.

[Kojo]

And no one likes to admit this, but that's like essentially if you're doing that, you're falling for a get rich quick.

[Whitney]

Yeah.

[Kojo]

You're thinking that you can get rich quick without taking the steps. And it's kind of insidious. It's sneaky. Especially, I feel like, when it's growth oriented because you're like, no, I'm willing to put in the work, I'm willing to invest in myself. But like, that's a get rich quick scheme if you haven't taken those little steps to get there. And I think for me, a lot of my clients, what, what I do is I help them pick the, their next goal in, in my program. That's like a lot of our work. Because for us, if you're an entrepreneur, you're a creator, whatever, you're a visionary, and that's your magic sauce. And if it goes unchecked, then you'll set these like pie in the sky goals, which actually is just your brain, like skipping the steps. That's just your brain finding a way to avoid taking action. If you're dreaming so big, then you'll avoid taking the next step. So a lot of the work oftentimes is selling people on why they actually need to do the next step instead of shooting for the stars.

[Whitney]

Yeah, I totally agree. And I love that you're talking about expanders. Whitney, you're an expander for me.

[Kojo]

Oh, my God, thank you. You are for me too.

[Whitney]

Thank you, thank you. Yeah. Okay, last part of this cheat code is that radical truth telling, just radical truth telling in your medium is what's going to get you attention. And I think that is just the essence of good art.

[Kojo]

A hundred percent. Yeah. And it really is. That's why, you know, again, fame, Fame has no morality. Attention is no morality because. And you can create it positively or negatively. Like I always like to use the example of Alec Baldwin because that man should have been canceled so many times. Like someone just died on his set and they just are like, you're fine. Like, just walk it off. Like, and people, he's still gonna have an illustrious career in Hollywood because he's. That's just kind of who he is. Right. And we have what are called mirror neurons in our brain and it's that we are obsessed with watching something that's authentic. That's why you actors all know this, that you never want to do a scene with a dog or a baby because they will. What's called pull focus, meaning everyone just wants to watch them. And it's because they exist in this like hyper present state where they're just really authentically in the moment. Whereas, you know, most of us, especially like I, and I was on the yearbook staff in high school. I remember, like as soon as you walk into a room and pull out your camera, everyone starts to like pose a little bit. Like they're like just doing their. And like someone who is insanely invested in what they're doing and who is authentically doing something that they love, that is magnetic. It's like we all get obsessed with like following, you know, like just different conspiracy theories or whatever. Like, but part of it is just that we love watching someone who's obsessed with, with this conspiracy theory. So yeah, whatever it is that you're obsessed with, start talking about that. That's what's magnetic to people and just being authentic to it. Like, whatever. I feel like I'm, I'm always telling people, like, whatever you could talk about non stop, whatever you could. Like whatever you would say if your mom wasn't watching, if no one was going to be upset, like, what would you talk about? Those are usually the things that then can like that people will also want to watch.

[Whitney]

Yeah. I think a good reflection that I tell my clients is, what do your friends ask you for advice about? That's usually the question. Yeah, that's usually really, really great content territory that people aren't thinking about that they would, they're like, I mean that was my, like I, I thought everyone knew this career stuff. I thought it was obvious. All my friends asked me for career advice. I started posting it. I'm like, oh, it's not something I would have thought of.

[Kojo]

I love that. I love that. And because I do think a lot of people are almost blind to their own genius because they're so close to it. And I love that idea of what your friends ask you for because that's. That's inherently going to create that gap because it's something that you've transcended that. Now you're. I don't want to say you're talking down to someone, but you're talking to someone a couple steps behind you, and that it creates, like, an authority piece that people want to watch you and trust you.

[Whitney]

Yeah.

[Kojo]

That's so fascinating. Love it.

[Whitney]

Well, Whitney, where can everybody find you? Engage with you, take your courses, work with you?

[Kojo]

I'm at whitneyuland on all the platforms, and then I've got a podcast, how to Be Famous with Whitney Yuland. And we've got season two just coming out this month, so. Yeah, I don't know when you're airing this, but it'll probably be around the same time. Yeah, yeah.

[Whitney]

Exciting.

[Kojo]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

Okay. We all connect with Whitney. Thank you so much for being here, Whitney.

[Kojo]

Thank you.

[Whitney]

Okay, y'all, if you like this episode, you would love. Love my Patreon. Okay? You get exclusive access to me, exclusive content, tons of other resources, and a.

[Courtney Johnson]

Lot of juicy shit.

[Whitney]

Okay? So I hope to see you on my Patreon.