← Built in Public
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- [00:00]
A
It's easy to have a personal brand that isn't authentic for a short period of time, but long term it has to be based on who you are and your values. Your personal brand is like a really core extension of who you are and no matter how much you change your external factors, it'll ultimately come down to your values and some people are going to align with those and some people aren't. How are you allowing those values to come through in the content? And and then the trust is how many minute I align with those values and so therefore I trust this person. There's somebody I want to follow, there's somebody as a community I want to be in. And with that you're always going to get opportunities.
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B
Everyone else is growing faster than me. I need to get this camera set up. This person has better equipment, this person has a better team. What advice would you give them? Welcome to Built In Public. I am your host Courtney Johnson. I've been a full time content creator and a personal brand strategist for seven years and I really built my career sharing the process, not just the outcomes of personal brand. Personal Brand Built in Public is about what it actually looks like to build a brand, a business, and to build real leverage in the creator economy. We're talking strategy, systems, audience growth, monetization and that uncomfortable middle ground between. I have an idea and this is actually working. I'll be sharing what I'm testing, what's working, what's not, and I'm going to be bringing on people who are building their careers and companies out loud too. If you want honest conversations, practical insight and zero bs, you are in the right place. Let's build in public. Welcome back to Built In Public Public. After kicking things off with a solo episode, I am so excited to actually bring in conversations and guests into this next chapter. And Danielle really felt like a good place to start. Danielle's been mentoring me for a while. She has a really amazing story. She went from running a chiropractic business to co founding Boss Babe which grew into this global massive brand with millions of followers, multi million dollars in revenue. But what's really interesting is that for the years that she was building Boss Babe, she wasn't face she was more like behind the scenes building the system strategy, this infrastructure that made growth really possible. And after exiting Boss Babe, she stepped into her own spotlight. Now she helps female founders scale to seven figures and beyond. She really has seen both sides, the operator side and the personal brand side. And she has an extremely unique take on personal brand. She's not like you have to become famous and get as many followers as possible. She has really, really good insight on building a small community and still leveraging that as high income personal brand. So for everybody thinking I don't want to be famous, I don't want to be seen by millions of people, but I still want to build a personal brand, this is an incredible conversation. We're also talking about what it takes to grow, how to lead, and how to monetize in the creator economy. Hope you enjoy My book Career Cheat Codes comes out on April 14th and pre orders are now open. I'm so excited. If you have ever gotten value from any of my free content from listening to this podcast, Whether that be YouTube subscribers, Spotify my posts, my free trainings and masterclasses and webinars, anything I've shared online, pre ordering the book is one of the biggest ways to help this mission of un gatekeeping the gate Kev and this mission of giving people all of the autonomy that they need in order to create their dream in their life. Pre ordering the book is just the biggest way to help these ideas reach beyond this audience in this community. Pre orders actually don't count as like early sales. They actually signal demand to retailers. So like pre orders ride or what's riding on retailers wanting to carry the book. So it plays a really, really big role in how widely the book is seen once it launches. So this book is really the most complete version of what I've been aiming to teach for years. You know, how to build leverage, how to understand the real rules of the game, how to understand what's gate kept, how to build your personal brand and create career mobility on your own terms. Guys, I'm so excited about this book. Like, it has been such a journey and I packed as much value as I possibly can to transform your career. And if somebody else comes to mind, like a fantastic friend, a sibling, a mentee, a coworker who's navigating their career right now, it could also be a really meaningful gift. You can pre order Career Cheat Codes. We're going to give a link in the show. Notes would really, really appreciate it and I know you're just going to love it. Welcome Danielle.
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A
Thanks for having me.
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B
I'm so happy that you're here.
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A
Me too. I'm excited to do this.
- [04:27]
B
This is really. This is actually a really big deal because you are the first podcast episode I've hosted since Knowing I'm pregnant. So exciting. We're seeing all this from a different lens.
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A
Yeah, that is exactly right. You're starting to see life very differently now.
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B
And you're the first guest I've had since we've transitioned transition to personal brand focus. So super, super excited.
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A
Well, I'm honored because also I think personal brands are very underrated and I, I also did not give my enough credit for so long. So excited to kind of share more about that.
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B
I want to first understand you didn't start in entrepreneurship. You didn't start, you started in the medical field.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And you had this transition into entrepreneurship. When was the moment you were like, okay, I can actually do this or I'm going to do this, because that's a pretty big and brave transition.
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A
Yeah. I think there's like two types of entrepreneurs as the types. You're like the kids who were selling, you know, candy at the school store. That was not me at all.
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B
Right.
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A
I did not ever intend to be an entrepreneur. I didn't set out with like, okay, one day I want to be a business. And I want to share that because I think there's a misconception that you have to have always had this entrepreneurial instinct. And I felt like I certainly didn't. Why did have was I want to work hard and to do my best. And so naturally I kind of ended up in the medical field over a period of time. I was a chiropractor. And I did start becoming a bit more entrepreneurial in my chiropractic days because I started my own clinics and I also co founded one of the fastest growing primary healthcare brands in the uk and but it didn't start like that. I became a chiropractor because I wanted to help people. But quickly into that journey, I realized I had started trading time for money. And it was very much, you know, I was in my early 20s and that was okay for a long time because I was like, okay, you know what, I can work seven till seven shifts. That's fine. I want more money, I'll work more hours. The only things I need to make time for in my life is my boyfriend and work. That's all. And some friends. Like, I would go and see those in the weekend. But as I was starting to look forward into, you know, later life, I thought, okay, what happens if I want to have a family? Or what happens with this? Or hang on a minute, I want to travel. What if I want to change location of where I work? I realized that what I was doing was very restricted. And I decided I was like, hang on a minute, I no longer want to be trading time for money. And I want to start looking at what is outside of that. And so that's when I started rethinking backwards from what was the life that I wanted to lead and how could I get there. And I knew I wanted to be remote. I knew that I didn't want a location dependent business. And I knew that I didn't want the amount of money I made to be directly correlated with the amount of hours that I worked. And those are my criterias followed by. I wanted to be able to help people still. And so that's where I really started embarking on that journey around looking at what that is. Because you could be an entrepreneur and you can raise money, but if you're raising money, you basically have a boss, right? You do. And they. So I started knowing that, hang on a minute, I wanted to do something where I was bootstrapped. I wasn't bringing in a lot of, you know, outside investors or anything like that. And so I started exploring it. But it wasn't a big transition for me. It wasn't like a stop at a start. And I think that's why a lot of people get kind of confused. They think, oh my goodness, I want to leave this job or I want to change careers or I want to start a business or want to start another business. And I think it's an either or. But where I really encourage people to think about is the and because when you can do both at the same time, that's how you, you don't necessarily have to have the confidence because I, I really do think confidence is bred by competence. You can't be competent in something until you like start and you start learning it and you start trying it. And so really speaking like I thought, hang on a minute, I want to start in the online world. I didn't know anything about digital marketing. I didn't know anything about funnels online or those pieces. I knew how to market chiropractic businesses, but I didn't have that capability. But I learned alongside my chiropractic and I basically took my salary slash income that I was getting from chiropractic, my clinics to be like, hang on a minute, let me use my hourly rate and my payments or whatever. I'm getting over here and let that be the investor into my new business. And that's how I started growing. So it's a transition versus a stop at a start.
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B
Did you feel at any point like you were uncomfortable with transitioning the messaging or the personal brand, whether that just be with your family and Friends, like, I am an entrepreneur now. I'm transitioning into that or like publicly,
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A
oh my goodness, 100. So for those who have been following me a long time, lots of people know this about my journey because I did not want a personal brand. And I now I look back on that and I'm like, well, there's kind of two misconceptions there because you always have a personal brand, even if you
- [09:25]
B
don't want one, even if you don't have one.
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A
Basically your reputation is your personal brand and you just have a really large footprint or you have a smaller one. But either way, whether you like it or not, even if you are employed and you are not actively putting out content on social media, you still have a personal brand. Whether it's the people that know you or what you do have currently on your LinkedIn profile or your Instagram profile, basically whatever you, they could Google about you, that is your personal brand. And so for me, I really was like very naive to that in the early days. So if you think about my transition started in 2016. So it was a little before, you know, obviously like Instagram was popping then. Facebook had been around for a long time. But it was before we were starting to say creator economy. It was before we started like asking kids and them saying they wanted to be YouTubers. So it was kind of like earlier in that phase and I very much wanted, or I very much thought about myself as a behind the scenes person. And I like looked after the operations and basically many seats and which I later sat on. We'll talk about how I like ventured into that. But I, I didn't really see myself as like, oh, hang on a minute, I want to have a personal brand and I want to be posting in this way. It was more of a organic growth into that realizing, hang on a minute, what people are looking up about me online, or hang on a minute, what I put out online can actually start making me revenue. And I started to see that in kind of 2018, 2019, and then started transitioning in that. But I was very scared initially. Like, I remember doing my first Facebook. I went on Facebook and I did this Facebook Live and I was on and off colony before anyone could get on there. Like no one was there live. I was like, hi, my name is that. Yeah. And I jumped off again and I was terrified. But ultimately what I realized was the more I did something, the easier it got. And like I said, I had to kind of wake up to the fact that I already had a personal brand. It was just the amount of people that knew me and the amount of people didn't, it was really the difference. Like we all have personal brands so I really just becoming more aligned with that. Yeah.
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B
I think it's also important for people to remember that they have an internal personal brand too. So it's the things people can google about you. And also if you work a full time job, how are you showing up in your email? Email? What's the languaging you use? What is your Slack profile look like? Like, how do you dress in front of clients? Like there are so many aspects of your personal brand, even if you don't want one, that you already have. But I love this perspective because you are not somebody that's coming on here being like, I was gung ho. Yeah, personal brand. I love it. You're like, no, actually I. That sounds miserable.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Like what made you decide to be like, I'm gonna invest. Because you've invested a lot in your personal brand. But was it the opportunities you started getting? Was it like, okay, fine, I'm going to do it even reluctantly.
- [12:20]
A
I think I've always been able to connect the dots with business. So I've always really understood how to build a brand outside of myself, whether it was chiropractic, clear snakes or when we co founded Boss Baby and what we built there. So it always very much understood the power of a brand. I just was reluctant to have a personal brand. But then as I started, I think mine was more gradual because when I started to see the power of Instagram, I started my personal brand on Instagram and then later kind of shifted it as well onto LinkedIn, but I started seeing the power of that. And then when we started our podcast in 2019, that's when I really started kind of like having more things to post, things to say and almost being forced into it a little bit. But you know how you start kind of getting the. Not like I want to say that, the rewards, but you start saying, well hang on a minute. When I'm meeting this person or when I'm sharing this on social, I'm getting inbound, people are connecting with it. Then it kind of gives you those dopamine hits around. Okay, maybe like people do like this. Maybe I should be talking about it more and really kind of seeing that, you know, there was something there. But I will say one thing because I'm not. I love building assets and companies. Assets, I always say companies and assets. But personal brand as leverage. And what I mean that is company, a company can live without you it's about building systems, it's about creating something where hopefully you're not the product, because then it's an asset that you can wander. They sell. Whereas personal brand is leverage. It gets you into rooms, it gets you into conversations, it gets you trust, it gets you people to vouch for you. And I think if you can marry those two things together, that's when the magic really happens with changing your situation. Whether it's financial or the freedom that you want to, like, create or, you know, even the trajectory of your career, that's what I think is really the good combination. But when I started seeing that personal brand as leverage, that's when I was like, okay, I need to lean more into this.
- [14:18]
B
Yeah, it also transcends your current thing. So, yes, you have this current offering, this current company that you started, and your personal brand is leverage. That amplifies that thing, that asset. Your personal brand is going to last beyond that asset. So maybe you sell, you exit, maybe you rebrand. Maybe the company looks different than it did 10 years ago. The odds that you have the exact company, the exact offer, the exact branding right now, first, 50 years from now, is very, very little. Right. The personal brand is the one thing that's in changeable, your name, your. Your likeness, and your, Your message. Like, even if we're transitioning industries, I'm sure your message stayed really consistent, which was helping people.
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A
Yeah, I would say there's probably a layer beneath that though, before message. And I would say it's probably values. And I think your personal brand is. It's easy to have a personal brand that isn't authentic for a short period of time, but long term, it has to be based on who you are and your values. And then I think sometimes the messaging can change because you might be in a different season of your life. You might be finding out you're pregnant, and that kind of starts taking on to new season. I'm now a mum of two. So my personal brand is very like different than it was five years ago, but they're still the same values. And I think that's what really is like. If you have a personal brand, two things happen. You repel the people that don't, you know, necessarily have the same values as you and you attract more of the people that do. And also it amplifies, like you say, it amplifies any of your messaging because you, what you talk about and how you share that messages has that underlying value of those, has that underlying integrity of those values, which then allow people to kind of Go. Okay. I know that Daniel will be suitable for me to introduce to these people, or I know I want to work with her because of X, Y and Z. And so I think your personal brand is like a really core extension of who you are. No matter how much you change your external factors, it'll ultimately come down to your values, and some people are going to align with those, and some people aren't.
- [16:27]
B
Yeah, that's beautiful. So I have a question that I keep getting in my Instagram DMS, all my DMs all the time, and I can't answer this question because I'm American. So I'm curious. I. I kept bookmarking this, and I'm like, I'm gonna bring this to Danielle. I have a lot of people in my DM saying, courtney, you talk all about personal brand, but you're a boisterous American. And the American culture, it's normalized to put yourself out there and to be big and bold. But I'm from the uk, I'm from Austria, I'm from whatever other country. Mainly, I get this question from people, uk, Europe, and they're like, it just. My culture is different, Courtney. It won't work for me. What would you tell someone that has that perspective?
- [17:07]
A
I think at that point, you have a choice to make. You either can have excuses or you can create action. And I know that might sound harsh, but I'm such a believer in, like, you are what you say you are. That actually is. I'm actually currently working on this a lot right now. So, you know, just to kind of share with everyone. I'm eight weeks postpartum, and I was sharing with my. My partner before coming on this podcast. This is the first podcast that I've done since having the or since being, like, pretty heavily pregn. The last one I did last, like, six or seven months. But I was saying to my partner, like, oh, my goodness, like, I don't know what to wear. I don't necessarily look cute, don't fit into some of my clothes. And I was like, my brain's not working. I keep having, like, these moments where I'm like, wait, what? What was I doing? Like, what was I asking myself? And those who are mothers will definitely understand this. And he was like, you'll remember your words are powerful. And I was like, you're right. And I always say this. You are what you say you are, and you do what you say you'll do. And so no matter what country you come from, if you're like, oh, that's not. I can't do that because I'm from this country. I can't say that because that's not what we do here. Okay? But that's an excuse. So the question you get to ask yourself is not how do I do it? Like Courtney, how do I do it? The. That is supportive of who I am, the values that I have, and the people that I want to attract into my community. Because also ultimately a personal brand is building a community. And so two things I want to leave people with is you are what you say you are. So be really careful about the words that you utilize and you're only going to be as good as the questions that you ask. And I think a lot of people, a lot of times people ask the wrong questions and that's why they end up with the answers like, oh, well, how do I. If the question is how do I do it like Courtney, then the answer might not be right for everybody versus how do I. How do I achieve these results for myself in my situation? Then you're going to get more. You're going to get better answers that are more appropriate for you.
- [19:14]
B
Something else that I'd recommend if people aren't seeing somebody of their background that has accomplishing their goal, like find expenders who are. Yeah, if you are from the UK and the culture a little bit different where maybe you stay quieter, tall Poppy syndrome, find other expanders that grew up in the same place that you did from the same culture that, that you can see like Danielle, you know what?
- [19:39]
A
As well, I also think sometimes we scare ourselves by taking the first steps because we look at people who are like 10 steps in front of us and that can be really intimidating. And so also looking for people who are like one or two steps in front of you that you're relating to a little bit more and you're seeing some of those struggles can also really be a big help in gaining that motivation. And when we talk about looking, I do like two things now. I noticed that my Instagram algorithm particularly was, you know, full of a lot of people that I was watching that kind of made me not, not by their point of views, but just like it made me feel a little bit like I was kind of doom scrolling or I was kind of getting a little bit like not feeling great about stuff that I was doing or what I had achieved or any of these pieces. Right. And so a long time ago I actually muted a lot of people and started training my algorithm and saying like things I wasn't interested in and saying the things that I was interested in. So I would get shown the things that actually lit me up and did motivate me to create that change. And I could follow more closely the people that did inspire me. And also felt a little bit more like, oh, hang on a minute, it could take some inspiration from this or I could learn from this person a little bit more, rather than letting the algorithm dictate that. So I would encourage anyone who's feeling like that just to get more intentional about the time that you're spending on social media and who you're consuming so that you can kind of like build that confidence and then your own competence will grow too.
- [21:12]
B
Yeah. I love the advice of taking advice iteratively. I once told my boss when I was in a tech startup, hey, Steve Jobs does this in his meeting. So I think we should do that in our meetings. And he was like, courtney, Steve jobs is like 10,000 steps above you. Why don't you go find the woman at the company that has really good meetings and ask her before you ask Steve Jobs, because she's two steps ahead of you. I'm like, I kind of like the
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A
initiative though, to be fair.
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B
Well, it was like pretty extreme. It was like Steve Jobs had. Has five minute meetings where, you know, he's like, okay, Courtney, you're not Steve Jobs. And yeah, maybe you don't go straight to.
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A
I like your proactiveness in that.
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B
Yeah, I appreciate that. Energy was good.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So one of the other roadblocks that I see a lot of people make in their personal brand is they do see success pretty quickly and they get scared of it because success comes quick in personal brand, especially if you have an existing LinkedIn audience, you have an existing Instagram followers, even if it's just your friends and family. Right. You post something, maybe it blows up, or maybe your friend tells your family member who tells their roommate, and now you have a new client. Right. When it, when you are seeing those wins, it can be uncomfortable and you can almost pull back because of that fear of success. So what advice would you give to somebody who might be in that. That retraction stage after a big win?
- [22:38]
A
This is such a great question. I always share, like, being in business is 80 mindset, 20 skill. And they say that it's like building a business or building a personal brand. However you want to deem it as like the biggest personal growth experience that you will go through. And that is absolutely the truth. You as going back to, you are what you say you are. You are who you say you Are and you will receive what you are capable of receiving and holding. So I think a biggest. The biggest lesson I've learned is also as much as I'm learning the skill sets of funnels and content creation and algorithms, I'm also learning, okay, how do I regulate my nervous system? How do I learn about myself? My shadow sides, my. My gifts are things that I need to become better at. How do I learn to delegate? How do I learn to, you know, lead a team even when I'm not feeling my, you know, my best? How do I learn all of these different aspects? And so I think a lot of it is just really understanding and doing the inner work, kind of going to the mind gym, right? Like, if we think about how we train ourselves physically, how do you train yourself mentally? And what is stopping you at that point? Like, if you are feeling like, oh, my goodness, this is moving so quickly now. I'm, like, putting out stuff on content and it feels uncomfortable. What feels uncomfortable? And then ask yourself, what can I do about this? So this becomes my norm because I think you hit this whether it's attention, whether it's views and people inbound on you. And I think that can be coming in a love way. Sometimes it can be really uncomfortable to receive love. If anyone, kind of anyone listening to this experiences when people they spend, send a lot of messages on your birthday. And anyone who goes, oh, my goodness, I hate it when people send me loads of messages on my birthday because it feels so overwhelming. That's something to work on. Like, how do you turn that from being overwhelming to, oh, my God, I love it when, say, people send me all this inbound love. It, like, feels. Feels so lovely to, like, receive this and nurture this. And in the same way around, like, oh, my goodness, I'm now earning way more. I'm earning more than a month than I used to earn in a year. Or, hang on a minute, I'm earning more in a month than I would have earned in three years, four years, five years doing that inner work and understanding that you might. It might kind of show up for you that you have a mindset around. Money is bad. People with lots of money are, are, you know, not good people versus, like, hang on a minute. If money is energy and I'm receiving it, how can I do more good with my money? And the more money I have, the more good I can do with it. And so I think, really speaking, it comes down to a lot of the mindset and how you can go to your own mindset gym around Your own wealth around, your own receiving of love around your intention. What you do that attention and just working on that continuously, because if you don't, you will push that away in the long term.
- [25:25]
B
Mindset Gym is such a great phrase.
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A
I'm gonna put that in my pocket.
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B
So for somebody listening and they're like, okay, Danielle, I'm gonna go to Mindset Gym. I'm. After I finish this podcast, it's Mindset Gym time. Where would they start? Is there one place or a couple of recommendations where they start? Whether that be like a book, hiring a coach, a certain modality, where. What's step one?
- [25:47]
A
I personally think, think the Mindset Gym needs to come in lots of different forms. Okay. So I think ultimately it's like, you know, all of us go work out differently. Some people run, some people will go to lift weight, Some people go to Pilates. So first of all, it's understanding what modality works best for you. Is it coaching and talking? Is it reading? Is it an audiobook? Is it meditation? Is it journaling? And it really depends on starting there and then building a regular habit. I think the consistency of doing something is better than what you do. But either way, it should be something that is allowing you to see and understand yourself, understand your challenges, your weaknesses, and your, you know, your shadow sides and allowing you to kind of layer upon that around, how do I overcome that? How do I strengthen that? And so I'm not like, oh, you have to read this book. You have to start with this thing. It's just really about finding the modality. And then maybe actually what I would say on top of that is asking chat GPT. If those were utilizing an AI, it could be Gemini or it could be chat. If you're inputting a lot of information on a regular basis and working with it, you could ask chat, hey, I want to do more on my mindset now, given what you know about me, what are the things that you would recommend that I start working on and see what it comes up with for that? And it also depends, too, and what season of your life you're in. You might have parts of your life where actually you're kind of rediscovering your identity, or it might be. Hang on. When you're working on your relationships or your friendships or your leadership skills, and then allowing it to be you, to be able to develop that depending on what the outcome that you want at the end of the day is.
- [27:28]
B
Yeah, that's super helpful. Is this the Mindset Gym, like, original,
- [27:32]
A
you trademark this I just said it now.
- [27:34]
B
Really? Oh, my God.
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A
I was like, wait. I was thinking postpartum brain would be worse. Worst.
- [27:38]
B
No, it's great. I feel like, go.
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A
Go home and trademark it.
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B
Now. This is like a workshop. Or maybe it's a book. I don't know. It's.
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A
It's something I've never spoken about this.
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B
Wow.
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A
I think it's because I'm going through a lot of this now. Like, my mind, I've had to really work. Look, I'm an open book. I really try and be an open book. My postpartum after my first child was not hard for me at all. I didn't have this identity shift. I was like, oh, my goodness. Like, what's everyone like, like, sharing about, like, this postpartum? Well, this isn't bad at all. It's easy. I find having a kid easy and my second one completely the opposite. This postpartum has flawed me. I've questioned so much about my identity. I've really noticed a lifestyle shift. I've really noticed. Hang on a minute. I can't do the things that I was doing before. And so I've had to go to the mindset gym religiously. Because when you're postpartum and you're breastfeeding too, there's no way out. You can't numb yourself with, like, alcohol or, like, you know, you can't. You can't do anything you can't take. Even if it's like a painkiller, there's, like, things and restrictions around it. So it's just like, you really are forced to sit in it. And so I've done therapy consistently with this postpartum this time around. And I think I've really noticed, like, hang on. What is my mindset, Jim? And it. Honestly, my husband's really helped me with this because he was like, well, you look at yourself physically. You're not looking after yourself mentally. So, like, what do you. What do you want to do around that? And that's why we were kind of like, okay, like, need to go to the mindset gym.
- [29:10]
B
I think having a partner that will lovingly call you out on your BS is also a really great cheat code. Like, you're saying. He's like, is it? Yeah, just gently reminding you that you're creating that reality that you're speaking into existence of. It's going to be all over the place, whatever. Yeah.
- [29:27]
A
And I want to hold space people that it. It. It's very hard when you're in it still. Like, it really is and so you remember, easy for me to play. Oh, you know, you are what you say you are and you need to change your language. But that ultimately is a very difficult thing to do for the majority of people. But at least start trying. And I think that's where I really am. Like, I'm like, okay, hang on a minute, I just said that. But what could I be kinder and say differently about myself in that period of time?
- [29:53]
B
I know a lot of you guys are founders and a lot of you guys are looking to hire talent, talent. And I get messages all the time of being like, Courtney, how do I find somebody to hire? How do I hire this type of person? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And guys, I don't know shit about hiring. I've literally like manifested every single person I've hired. No joke, like crazy coincidences. I've never done a traditional hire, but obviously if you're starting a startup, you can't just like twinkle and fairy lights manifest, everybody. So I want to talk about my friend who actually graduated level up on LinkedIn pretty much named Holly Maglin, that's H O L L Y M A G L I N. Like go at her on LinkedIn right now and she helps you recruit early career talent for your startup. Holly's has this idea that like the traditional career fair is dead. If you're a founder or a lean startup team that's trying to find your next star hire at like a campus booth career fair, you're lost. If you have a team with a small budget, you don't need a bigger budget. You just need a better strategy. Like, especially when you're hiring Gen Z, like they're not looking for this, this glossy 90s brochure career fair. Like there's a totally different strategy. Gen Z really wants authentic connection. I think hiring people right out of college is so awesome because you get to kind of develop them. You get to get a new, fresh perspective. Anyways, so Holly, imagine she created the Holly Maglin method and it is such a cheat code for modernizing how you hire. Even if you're starting from scratch with like zero experience hiring, if you need a full audit of your current plan, if you need ground up of a new strategy, Holly has got you. Okay, again, if you guys are startup founders, you're looking to hire early career talent, go add Holly Mad on LinkedIn right now. She's even sharing a free campus engagement execution matrix with all of our listeners to show exactly how she does it so you can get her entire strategy for free. Anyways, Just wanted to throw this in there because I know a lot of you guys are hiring. I know a lot of you guys need support right now. And Holly's just an amazing woman. And I wanted to offer this free resource. I think it'd be helpful for our audience to know as you've used your personal brand as leverage. What are some examples of opportunities that have come from your personal brand?
- [32:04]
A
Oh my goodness, so many. I, I feel like my personal brand, I. It's kind of weird because you are not your, your, your personal brand is so much your social footprint. Your social footprint is so much your personal brand. Now I don't think I would get any opportunities because my personal brand is also how I see it and like my recommendations for intros that I've got, etc. So actually, you know what? I think there's one thing I would say around this is your personal brand online is a kind of a foot in the door. It's like an in depth business card before you're meeting people is giving people an understanding of who you are and what you're about before they're meeting them. So it's kind of like it's in the room before you are. And I would say because of that, it's opened up a lot of opportunities for me with that. It's kind of the same thing around like what I was saying, with your values, you have to have good, strong values offline and online. Because even if you just have them, it looks like you have them online. Trust me, people know offline and they're saying things and it's getting around. And your personal brand is really just your reputation. So I think people should just think about what reputation do I want to have have. Am I living that in the in person and then also how am I translating that online? And that comes through with the pillars and the things that you're talking about online. So for example, I could, even if this motherhood conversation, I could. One of my personal values is vulnerability. And so I think that it's important to be vulnerable with people because it allows people to understand you more. You can understand them. It breaks down, out, breaks down any walls that exist. And I really like that in the content that I put out there. And I really like that in my in person relationships. And I think when you allow vulnerability to be one of your values, it translates and it quickly helps people with the trust. And if we think about what personal brand is put on online, personal brand is. It's people get to know that people need to know like and trust you. That's what basically the fundamentals of a personal brand are. And if they know you, it's like, how are you, how are they seeing you online? Like, where are they seeing you online? How are you reaching them? How are they finding you? The like is like, what are you telling them? Like, how are you allowing those values to come through in the content? And then the trust is hanging. I align with those values. And so therefore I trust this person. There's somebody I want to follow, there's somebody as a community I want to be in. And with that, you're always going to get opportunities. Is, I would argue everything I do now is via my online, personal. My online and in person personal brand. I don't even think there's a differentiation anymore.
- [34:49]
B
Yeah, it's. It's pretty incredible. Yeah. I actually just pulled my top performing post from the last 12 months, and it's like every single one of the top performing posts is some sort of vulnerable post that I was so scared to share. And I find that it's just like pushing the boundaries of your comfort zone and peeling back the layers of vulnerability. Whether that be maybe you're talking about a situation that you failed in or something that didn't go your way or a lesson that you learned is really incredible. And I was talking with a client who said he lost $50,000 on a real estate deal and he's a real estate coach. And he was hesitant to post that because he's like, well, they need to know that I'm good at real estate. If I share, I lost 50k on this deal, like, they're not going to trust me. I'm like, no, no, no, trust me. Post it. Share the lesson that you learned. And the feedback that he got was, I want to work with you because you learned that $50,000 lesson that I now don't have to learn. Like, you can teach me those mistakes and actually increase his trust so much more.
- [35:53]
A
Yeah, I think a lot of people actually appreciate that. I actually have a post that I was just writing the other day, and it was kind of that, you know, when I first came onto Instagram, the 2018 era, it was all about the flat layers and perfectionism. And you had to be perfect people online. Like, it was like the perfect poses, the perfect conversations, like the perfect coffee. And that really has left Instagram. Now people are like, that feels untrustworthy. If you're telling me your life is 100 perfect, I now know that's not the reality. And so I want to follow somebody who is trustworthy. And so I only deem you trustworthy if you are going to be sharing either more behind the scenes, more vulnerability, more humor. However, trust is translated for you or however vulnerability is translated for you. Really? Because I think some people can do that in humor, Some people can do that in their storytelling, some people can do that through their imagery. But I think there has to be an element of vulnerability that does come through online and particularly with building that personal brand. Also, very interestingly, there was a TikTok. You had TikTok shoppers blowing up. There was a study done and they. This woman did a perfectly scripted. She was selling something and she was sold it perfectly. So via script, made no hiccups whatsoever. Then they did the same woman, the same product and they in the script, they made it so that she dropped something. And so they made an accidental mistake, but on purpose. Which one do you think sold more?
- [37:31]
B
The mistake.
- [37:32]
A
The woman who made the mistake. And so it just shows that actually people, again, they trust someone who is not perfect because they make mistakes. And so that's something to think about with your personal brand. I also know people who will on purpose in their presentations make a mistake in it.
- [37:50]
B
I have some creator friends that pronounce things wrong on purpose, but I think that's more just to get people in the comments being like, yeah, pronounced blah, blah, blah.
- [37:58]
A
Yeah. My friend Adley on Viralish, she says that she does like videos sometimes the flies undone or something like that. So she'll do these things on purpose because it gets comments and engagement going.
- [38:08]
B
That's. I love that. That's iconic. I have a kind of controversial opinion about personal brand. I'm curious your thoughts, but I also think that if you stick too much with, with a perfect niche, that that can also degrade trust. I've seen people where they're like posting about workouts and they're only posting about workout routines. They won't post about anything else. But I kind of think that can degrade trust. I think that niches, it's important to have a focus. But when you're afraid to talk about these other aspects of your life, it can almost be boring. Right? Like I don't want to follow someone just because they're talking about working out. I'm following cause they're talking about working out and they're talking about. About their life or being a mom or this or that and how that all integrates with working out.
- [38:52]
A
Yeah, I think it's really important to realize that like let's say we have a Brand. Right. A brand, a company brand, it just does that thing. Whereas a personal brand is like an extension of you. And so I think most personal brands, people following them, expect them to be multifaceted. And. And the two things are important. You want to be known for something, so people need to know a little. Just like with any brand, like we go to Starbucks works because we know what type of coffee that we're getting there. Right. Like, if most people went to a city, this is why it was blew up globally. Probably not the best example now. So not like doing as well financially. But, you know, people went there and they would go to somewhere in Europe quite often and still go to a Starbucks because they knew that it would have their favorite coffee. And there was an expectation now they might choose that over a random place. Because I'm not sure I'm going to get my. The coffee that I want. I'm not really sure if it's going to be any good. So I'll stick with what I know. And so I think with. What's important with personal brands is you have this element of, I know what to expect from Courtney. And that doesn't necessarily always have to be. It can be partly the topics, but they can vary. But it's also who you are as a person, how you deliver. You're. You said it, not me. I would never have described this. But what did you say? Like Bolshy America or something?
- [40:14]
B
Oh, boisterous. Boisterous.
- [40:16]
A
Boisterous American.
- [40:17]
B
We are boisterous.
- [40:18]
A
I mean, I've got no comment. But like, people might be used to your delivery.
- [40:23]
B
Yeah.
- [40:24]
A
Okay. They might know that you prefer video over written or whatever that is that starts becoming your brand. Doesn't mean that you can't do these things elsewhere. But when they come to your page, they have an expectation of, hang on a minute. Courtney is going to be talking about this in that way, but she's also talking about this, this and this. But what might throw them a little bit more if one day they came and you were all of a sudden doing recipes.
- [40:47]
B
Right, right.
- [40:49]
A
So I agree with you.
- [40:50]
B
Yeah.
- [40:51]
A
And I think it's important that as a personal brand, we allow the things that we're interested in. We. We allow it not to just be one thing, but we also don't do so much variety that is unpredictable. Because I think people trust predictability. They trust the predictability of going to Starbucks in Italy and still being able to get a coffee that they like. Okay. I think that's actually a right bad example, because the ESPRESSO in Italy is so good. Yeah, you shouldn't be going to Starbucks.
- [41:21]
B
I get it. If I'm traveling in a weird city and I need to take a call, I'll go to Starbucks because I know the WI fi is going to be relaxed. And some coffee shops are like, oh, like, focus on your coffee. Have conversations, don't have WI Fi. And I'm like, but I have to check my email.
- [41:35]
A
That's where you're like, I'm American, I'm working on vacation. Europeans. Like, what the hell are you doing? What are you talking about?
- [41:43]
B
So I kind of have this personal brand philosophy where I'm like, you just gotta put yourself out there, start getting the reps in and slowly iterate. You'll come to understand your niche, you'll come to understand your message.
- [41:56]
A
But.
- [41:56]
B
But you really can't figure out your message and your niche if you're not putting in repetitions. Right? Like you don't know your TED Talk if you've never written anything in your life. So I really encourage my audience and a lot of people in this audience, they're starting to post, maybe they've posted for a few weeks or a few months. They now feel really solid. And I've developed a habit. I'm committed to this and I'm building my personal brand. At what point point do you think strategy and offering should come in? They're like, I'm consistent. I'm doing it now. I want to monetize it. What would the, the first step you would recommend?
- [42:34]
A
I would say two things. This, like, if you know you want to be building a personal brand online, I'm pretty gung ho with this. I'm like, you should be already thinking about how you can monetize it straight away. Like, you don't know. You don't need thousands of followers us to make money online. Like, you really don't. Like, that's where we're at. And that's like kind of what you're talking about. Even if you go back to our conversation, we were literally saying about following people who are closer to you in what you're trying to achieve. And that really sings through when it's like, that's why you don't need thousands of followers all the time or millions of followers. I always say, when we built Boss Babe, we had, we're making a million dollars way before we had a million followers. And so I think that's a really, really, like a myth that people still are very much attached to. So I think right from the get Go. You can be thinking about ways to monetize. If however, now you're like, great, I've built the hot habit and now I want to monetize. I think it's working backwards from the type of business that you want because there's so many different ways to monetize online. Equally monetizing your knowledge in a digital form. You could be monetizing via affiliate links with Amazon, you could be monetizing via building a product based business like whichever you want to do. I think you get to ask yourself, what is the lifestyle that I'm optimizing for? Because when I was in my twenties, I thought that success was like a number in the bank account. And that is not what success is. Success is you being happy and fulfilled in your life. And I now I live in LA and you know, with the network that I have, I've met lots of people, which is actually crazy to say, but I mean more than a handful of people I know who have sold billion dollar companies. And I noticed that I think when I lived in the shire, we call it the shire in England.
- [44:24]
B
What does that mean?
- [44:25]
A
I grew up in a place called Leicestershire. We say like shy. I don't know, don't worry about it.
- [44:29]
B
It's like a neighborhood.
- [44:30]
A
Yeah. Like it's just not a city. I didn't grow up in a city,
- [44:32]
B
like a little village.
- [44:33]
A
Yeah, I grew up in a village with like 800 people.
- [44:36]
B
Oh wow, that's really small.
- [44:37]
A
Yeah, lots of sheep and farms. But like, you know, like I thought that like happiness was this like destination of wealth and it's really not. It is truly about being happy on the journey. So you have to understand what your life, what you want your life to look like. Do you want a boss? Do you want like time? Do you want, how many hours do you be working and then work out work backwards from that being okay, like this is the type of business that's going to suit me. And so then let's say for example, you might be like, okay, I want to sell digital products or I want to do it go into coaching. I want to be doing these things. Then understanding how do you, I call it monetizing your mind versus your time. What are you good at and what do you enjoy helping people with that would help you create an offer suite? An offer suite being like, how do you take people through a transformation going from A to B and what are the steps that they need to go to get there?
- [45:29]
B
I find with my clients, sometimes their audience tells them what they want to Sometimes they start getting DMs on LinkedIn for consulting. Sometimes they start getting messages on Instagram. People wanting to do a one on one coaching session with them. Somebody. Sometimes people will comment on a video saying, can you turn this into an ebook?
- [45:47]
A
It's such a good point. Like, you just, you, you're so right in bringing that up because most people will, like, you just have to listen. Or even if you're not just listening, just ask. And let's say, like I would always say, like stories, you're raving fans. Like, if you're doing stories, people are normally following you on there. But generally you could just be like, hey guys, I'm thinking about creating something. What would you like to me to teach you? Or you could be like, hey, what do you want more of from here? And they might be like, oh, I want more of your fashion links. I want more of this. And so I think it's like the combination of asking, seeing patterns, also looking at your algorithm and being like, all your insights and being like, hang on a minute. What does the best. When I talk about these things, what gets the most engagement? And then asking like, what do I enjoy talking about the most? Because honestly, like I said, said I think that money is not equal. And so I think that, you know, some people are going to be like, I would rather have less money but be doing this full time than having this amount of money and not being, not doing something else. So that's the question you get to ask yourself.
- [46:50]
B
Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's interesting too because you can, like, people forget you can just ask for help. Like, you can, you can, you can.
- [46:59]
A
And people forget you can change your mind. You can.
- [47:02]
B
Yes. Oh my God.
- [47:03]
A
You can try something. If it doesn't work, you can change your mind. I saw one of my friends post online the other day and she's like, I've changed my mind. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so refreshing because I feel like you forget. Like people forget that they can change their minds. It's allowed.
- [47:18]
B
Yeah, you're not locked in forever on one thing, but I think the idea of your top performing post is a really good cheat code. My top performing or my very first digital product, I just looked at my top LinkedIn blog. I saw what number one was. I copied and pasted it onto a Google Doc and saved it as a PDF and I said, here's my first digital product. Yay. And I sold it for like $5.
- [47:42]
A
You know what I notice about you though?
- [47:44]
B
What?
- [47:45]
A
Why? I think you're in the position that you are is you're a really quick action taker. And I think that's what stands in the way of majority people. It's actually not. You know how I said about entrepreneurship being 8 mindset and 20 skill? It's actually part of mindset is also just the ability to take action and be wrong or to be seen messing up or for something not to work. And it's like getting out of the paralysis. So if any of you notice yourself in a procrastination paralysis loop, go work on that part of your mindset and understand how you can create action quicker. Because the quicker you do something, ultimately the more mistakes you make, the more right decisions you find along the way. And I notice that as a big difference between people who reach success quicker than others isn't actually their intelligence or their capabilities, it's their ability to take action regardless of what they know or do.
- [48:40]
B
Yeah. So for the audience, I have two, two thoughts around this. One, I just can't always trust myself to do the thing three weeks down the road if I add it to a to do list. So I think I'm gonna do this right now. I mean, I trust myself. But you know, if you add something to to do list, especially something not required, you're like, I'm gonna publish this ebook. It'll stay on there forever. So you gotta like, I gotta act immediately.
- [49:02]
A
I think you should give your tips, of course, in action.
- [49:04]
B
And then second, it's a feedback loop. Right. Like we didn't get to the iPhone 20 by waiting until the iPhone 20 was ready. We started with. I don't know, I made that up.
- [49:15]
A
Up.
- [49:15]
B
We started with. We started with like an ipod, and then 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5. So I always think I want to get to the iPhone 20, but if I wait until 20, I'm not going to have 20. So I got to start with the minimum viable product.
- [49:29]
A
I think that's some great insight for people.
- [49:31]
B
And then iterate. Yeah, I love it. Okay, Danielle, your. I feel like your personal brand is also very known for community. Like, you've always been very good at fostering and building community. How do you feel community relates to personal brand?
- [49:44]
A
I would say community is. Brands are built on community nowadays. And you know, I think it's become more and more important. Your brand has to. And I say this, I'm just saying brand, it applies to personal brand too. But like your brand has to stand for something. It has to stand for things and against something. And a Community is what makes your brand memorable and it's the values that things are built on. So I didn't intentionally become really good at building community. I just spoke a lot more about my values, the things that I enjoy, the things that I said, the things that were different and that naturally built the community on top of it. Because what you put out in line, you either repel people, which is just as good as attracting people. I actually don't like going viral because you actually get a lot of people who are not in alignment with your values because they come in with one thing and then you have to, like, say goodbye to a lot of them because you're like, oh, you're not actually in alignment with who, who I am and who my brand is. And so don't get me wrong, I think going viral can also be great for businesses in certain ways. But what I'm just sharing is that, you know, your personal brand and your communities are built, they're fostered on a foundation of aligned values. And, you know, that's what's going to be really important to ultimately leveraging trust when it comes to grow it more and revenue.
- [51:21]
B
Yeah. I mean, every time I've gone viral, it's because people have, like, something mean to say. Like, that's why I'm viral.
- [51:29]
A
Like, struggle with that. I'm too sensitive.
- [51:33]
B
I'm like, oh, my God, this person,
- [51:35]
A
I don't know said this about me and I'm sharing that because I think this is not like something that I know some of the, like, such big influences and they are affected by it. Yeah, like, it really is like, you have to get tough to get. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have a personal brand though. It just means that you can, like, create stuff that don't panic if you don't have a massive personal brand. I don't want to be famous. I actually, for me, that is like, like, I do not want to have, you know, have a really big famous personal brand. What I want to have is a community that know, like, and trust me. And I also know, like, and trust them. And I always say, you come to my retreats and I was like, I have a no policy.
- [52:18]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [52:19]
A
Like, I am very intentional about who I have in my world. And like, if you say anything to me online that's like, rude, like, don't get me wrong, I love a good debate and like a difference in opinions. That's not what I'm talking about when. But when people, like, for whatever reason think they can say that certain Things online, it's like block and go. Yeah, no, we're not, we're not doing that here. That's not the space. And, you know, send you on your love. Because anyone who's sending hate online, I think has some of their own traumas that they're probably working through. But I think, you know, community is very, very intentional and it is fundamentally built on the values that you have as a person. Like I said, I. I think that my community are very psychologically safe because I also build that and I'm very intentional about doing that.
- [53:08]
B
Yeah. It's a reflection on, on you and what you've built, which is beautiful. Do you think that monetization can ever hurt a personal brand? Or there's a point where you're selling too much or it's too much. I feel like that's a fear that comes up a lot.
- [53:21]
A
Yeah. So the way I think about personal brands, so if you think about when, if you are, if you don't have a personal brand and you're just selling, it's all based on like, like persuasion. Right. And it's based on convincing someone. Whereas when you have a personal brand, selling is actually just connection and it becomes a natural next step because they're already aligned with the things you're doing and you're talking about an offering. So the, the purchasing from you is just the natural aligned energy exchange that's coming next. So if you're doing, if you're building a personal brand correctly and properly selling is, then buying from you is the next step. It's not like a hindrance to your personal brand at all.
- [54:01]
B
I love that. Yeah, that's such a good, such a good frame for our audience. If somebody was building a personal brand right now and they felt behind, they're like, everyone else is growing faster than me. I need to get this camera set up. This person has better equipment, this person has a better team. What advice would you give them?
- [54:20]
A
It's like investing. The best time to start was yesterday. The next best time to start is today. So you should start a personal brand. I would also say now, if you'd start in 2018, you would literally have been like having to have all the perfect things right now. This was brilliant. You can, like have a green screen and be like, hang on a minute. Like, you know, if, if you need some inspiration on how to show up authentically, go on to Tick Tock and go on there. Because it is like, I still feel like Instagram is a little bit more curated, but Tick Tock is Very much like, like, you know, very, you know, grassroots type of content and you can do anything. But I think what is important is you are delivering value. The number one thing I think people care about now when they're watching personal brands or deciding about who to follow, it is about are they considering or are they taking for granted my attention? Because money is a currency but also time is a currency and so therefore attention is a currency. And don't take it for granted when people are giving you that your attention. So any content that you're doing, as long as you're delivering value in a concise way, then it doesn't matter if it's delivered with the best camera or the worst camera. In fact though the more authentic non perfect curation of face to camera content, you actually have longer time spans the raw as compared to well polished. So let me say that Better.
- [55:52]
B
Better.
- [55:52]
A
That was my postpartum brain. A well edited video will hold attention less than a, you know, not so like shot with an iPhone video.
- [56:02]
B
And you drop, you drop something halfway through.
- [56:05]
A
Yeah, you just think halfway through you're like guaranteed to have. If you deliver something like this on your iPhone, just talking versus a really strategically edited polished video, the handheld one is going to get more. It's going to hold attention 36% longer. Wow.
- [56:19]
B
Yeah, I find that over edited just looks like an ad. So I'm immediately thinking it's an ad and I'm like okay, Skip.
- [56:27]
A
And so the majority of people are. Yeah, so the barrier to entry is lower than ever. So utilize that.
- [56:33]
B
I love how you're sharing the comparison with investing because yes, in investing there's shiny bells and whistles and this and that and you can get so distracted and caught up. But the truth is just small efforts compound every day. And it's the same with our personal brand. We can get distracted by this person having this lighting, this person having this team, this person having this many followers. But if we're putting in consistent small reps, it's going to compound over time no matter what. In fact, there's really no way to fuck it up. I don't think there's ever been a person that has, let's say posted three times a week for 10 years and continuously improved a little bit on every post and learned and reflected. Who has hasn't seen success in personal brand.
- [57:15]
A
Yeah, I would agree with that. I think consistency is the, is the biggest skill set, is the biggest cheat code too. It's just like if you get consistent posting, it doesn't matter if like you know you're terrible for a really long time. They'll still start like, you'll get better gradually and they'll start gaining traction. You just have to be consistent with the lessons and the learnings and the trying.
- [57:37]
B
Yeah, it's like, it's like learning an instrument. If you go to, go to guitar class three times a week for 10 years, you're going to learn how to play guitar.
- [57:45]
A
You know, that's what I was like sharing recently. I was saying that a lot of people as adults don't give themselves permission to learn something anymore. They think they have to be great at something straight out the gate. But the truth is you don't. The truth is you get to learn, you get to try, you get to make mistakes and you get to get better on a gradual basis. And I think that is the hardest. The, the biggest thing that stands in the way of most people is they've not given themselves permission to learn something and be bad at something for a period of time before they're good at it. Yeah. And you know, now having kids and like watching my 2 year old start, like, you know, we give them permission to not be able to walk, like, okay, try again. We're like, oh, you tried once, you're never gonna walk again. Or you said this word wrong six times. Might as well give up talking. Like, we don't do that. We give them permission to learn and get better. And yeah, we have to give people permission to have a child's mindset.
- [58:40]
B
So beautiful, Danielle, where can everybody find you and work with you and learn from you?
- [58:47]
A
Okay, so mainly on LinkedIn and Instagram. So Danielle county on both of those. And then I have some freebies and stuff as well. If they DM me Evergreen, I have one on building Evergreen product around digital product. If they DM me, whatever, got membership one too. I'm building a membership, so they're welcome to DM me any of those things too.
- [59:09]
B
Well, thank you, Danielle. This was so amazing.
- [59:11]
A
Thank you for having me. I love being on.