← Built in Public
Built in Public
Why Visibility Matters More Than Talent for Women at Work, with Lauren Douglas
00:46:21
Loading summary
Transcript202 lines
- [00:00]
A
Is there one value that you come back to? It's like, this has been my through line my whole life.
- [00:05]
B
You have to have some sort of visibility engine to get yourself seen.
- [00:10]
A
Yeah. As Austin Kleon says, if your work is not online, it doesn't exist.
- [00:14]
B
I have had many instances where I had no idea this person was following me. Didn't know that they liked my content, didn't know anything about them, and they'll send a client my way a year and a half, you know, two years after I started the business because they saw my posts online.
- [00:27]
A
Yeah. The way that I explain it to my clients is in the same way that we can own shares of a company, we can also own shares of other people's consciousness.
- [00:35]
B
Yes. If you've ever seen a kid dance, like, they. They don't care that they're dancing badly. Like, they're just, like, overtaken by a rhythm. And so I think that if you can tap into that childlike place inside of you that, like, once upon a time did love to play with or create or write or make something before you ever got insecure or, you know, self conscious, you're going to be able to create the best art.
- [01:01]
A
Welcome to Slay the Gatekeeper. I'm your host, Courtney Johnson, and I am here to un. Gatekeep the gatekept. Thank you so much for being here. Enjoy. Lauren at first was like, hey, I want to do your vip. And I'm like, what's your dream or your goal? And she was like, I want to help, like, women, CMOs. And I'm like, this is. I don't believe you. There's something bigger than, like, helping women CEOs, like, get better promotions or something.
- [01:28]
B
Yeah, I think that's right.
- [01:29]
A
It's underneath.
- [01:30]
B
It's under the surface. I know, but it's funny, I was actually just thinking about how you. We were just talking about this, that your purpose doesn't have to stay the same thing forever. Like, whatever you're doing five years ago doesn't have to be the same thing you're doing today, and then the same thing in another five years.
- [01:45]
A
Wait, this is cheat code number one.
- [01:46]
B
Okay.
- [01:47]
A
Okay, we're rolling. So let's make this cheat code number one. Okay. Okay. Lauren, before we. We started rolling, you had a really great cheat code that you. You shared about purpose.
- [01:57]
B
Yeah. I think we get really wrapped up in what is our purpose. And the. The thing about purpose is you don't ha. It doesn't have to stay static your entire life. Like, what you're Doing five years ago can be different than what you're doing today and can be different from what you're going to do in another five years. So it's like, maybe right now my purpose is to, for me, be a little bit quieter, be a little bit softer, be a little bit more vulnerable. But maybe in a year that will change and my purpose will actually, okay, I should become a famous podcaster. I don't know. But, like, I don't think it has to stay static.
- [02:31]
A
Totally. I do think a lot of people, especially a lot of our listeners, when it comes to purpose, probably feel constricted by the thought of I have to pick something, and that is my thing for the rest of my life. And what you're saying is, it doesn't have to be that way. Yeah, it can change, it can shift. It can evolve through seasons of your life.
- [02:51]
B
I also think that there's a such a thing as a primary purpose and a secondary purpose. And I think your primary purpose maybe is this more static thing, and that aligns to, like, your inner values, how you want to live. And then your secondary purpose is, are things that you can do to, like, how do you. How do you live? How do you make money? How do you go through life? How do you spend your time? Those can be your secondary purpose. And I think, like, sometimes we get so caught up on, like, well, the way I make money has to also be the way that I fulfill my purpose in life. And it's like, you could probably say, separate those a little bit out.
- [03:25]
A
What I see, too, is there's always a through line. There might be. You might have a different purpose or mission in this decade, then the last decade, then the next phase of your life. But usually the through line is really similar. And I find that the through line a lot of times has to do with your values. Yeah. So what is your top value that you would forget all other values for? I'm curious what yours is, but usually with my clients, I see that that is a through line. So mine is impact. No matter what I'm doing, if I'm working, even, let's say, I don't know, sold my company, didn't have to work, I'd still probably want to create some sort of impact for my partner. His is adventure. No matter what he's doing, he always wants to be or go on an adventure. And that value is going to stick through whatever job or career passion. So I'm curious, is there one value that you come back to? It's like, this has been my through line my whole life.
- [04:14]
B
Yeah, I think courage.
- [04:16]
A
Yeah, I haven't heard that one before. That's really good.
- [04:20]
B
I think the idea that, like, everything that you do, you have to have some level of courage. Like, if you're going to do it, you have to, like, you know, you have to be willing to. I think it goes in terms of how you treat people. You have to be willing to have hard conversations. You have to have the courage to start something new, potentially. You have to have the courage sometimes to shut down a business or shut down something that's not working for you. But I think, like, for me, a lot of times I'm like, banging on my chest and like, you got this.
- [04:43]
A
Douglas, you know, so that's the value that you keep with you. Like, you value courage. Yeah, that's. That's pretty metal. Because courage, to me, when you think of the hard conversations or doing that thing, that's really scary. Like, my whole body's like, holy. You. Your life is driven by courage. You're a lion. Like, what the.
- [05:05]
B
That's.
- [05:05]
A
That's hard.
- [05:06]
B
Yeah.
- [05:06]
A
Courage is so, so difficult for so many people.
- [05:11]
B
Yeah. Well, that probably is why I lean on it as a value, because, like, I have fear. You know, the other side of. Of that is that I can be driven by fear. And when you sort of get to a point, I'm now, you know, in my 40s, I'm like, I don't want to live that way anymore. I don't want to be driven by fear. And so how do I live a courageous life?
- [05:31]
A
So let's say you have a really hard conversation with someone. You have to fire someone on your team, and you know that that's going to be a hard conversation. Are you like, yeah, opportunity for courage?
- [05:43]
B
No, I have to, like, talk myself into it. I'm like, you got this. You've lived a thousand lives, and you've died a thousand deaths, and you can do this. Like, you have got this. This is nothing. This is. You can do it. And then also, I try to be. I think I'm somebody with a high eq. So I tried to understand, like, how would I feel if I were in their shoes? I've been fired before. How did I feel? How did I. How would I have wanted my manager to act if I. If I were in that situation and I was being fired again? And so I think a little bit of, like, the emotional intelligence also comes into the picture.
- [06:15]
A
So this is a big cheat code, too, that you just mentioned, and that is rescripting. So instead of going into the conversation with negative language, rescript it into a positive language. So our audience that's listening right now, that is gonna do that hard thing, that scary thing. Maybe they're gonna post that thing on social media. They're gonna finally launch that book or pitch that thing. How would you tell them as a cheat code to reframe the inner voice from being negative and in fear to be encouraged? Is there certain words? Is there modality? Is there, like, a shift that you use?
- [06:50]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think that.
- [06:54]
A
Like.
- [06:54]
B
When I was younger and I didn't have a lot of courage, I would do practices with people that were in my life, whether it was my partner or my sister or who have friends, and script things out in that way. And that helped a lot. Now I write things down when I. When I write, or actually sometimes I've been writing out loud. I've been like, speaking into voice notes as like a writing practice, but a speaking one. When you're speaking out loud or you're writing, then you can kind of get things out. You can think through what might the other person say? How would I. How would I handle this? You know? And then you can go into a conversation where you're just a little bit more prepped, your feet are planted more solidly on the ground, and you can say the things that you need to say and again, have that, like, courage to get it out.
- [07:39]
A
So the cheat code is around. We want to reframe the story. We can do that via writing, like journaling, maybe just writing in our phone notes app or actually scripting it in our voice memos. Yeah, so good. That's such a good cheat code. That'd be a good post.
- [07:56]
B
Okay, got it.
- [07:58]
A
Something so fun about people coming on my podcast, especially clients, people in content club. You've done content club level up on LinkedIn. Everything is. I'm just like, post. I know, post it clocked it for you. Okay, other cheat codes, let's get into them. One is one in three women are thinking about quitting their job, and you actually use quitting as a cheat code. So I'm curious, your take on quitting, Your take on why women are quitting their jobs at such high rates?
- [08:27]
B
Yeah, well, things are tough for women right now. One is we have an administration that is, like, not particularly in the US Helping women. And so I think that's causing a lot of people to, you know, like, they're defunding certain programs and things like that. So I think that's one area. I think the other is Childcare costs are crazy high. So, like, a lot of women are looking at the trade off between like, okay, I can go back to work and I can make. I'm making it up 100k a year, and then I pay 70 to childcare. What am I actually taking home at the end of the day? So I think a lot of people are looking at that. But I think the real big problem is we learned in Covid that we didn't have to work this very strict and honestly, like kind of patriarchal schedule of like nine to six in an office Monday through Friday, checking your work, your work email when you get home, checking it on the weekends. Like, everybody kind of like took a collective pause and they were re. And they kind of realized, like, we don't have to work this way anymore. And I think a lot of women in particular were like, I want to spend more time with my family. I want to spend more time doing projects that I love. I want to start a business. I am passionate about coaching or teaching or like, whatever it might be, but I think a lot of people got that, like, flavor for it. And so there's been a lot of people, women in particular, being like, I'm not doing this anymore or I'm cutting back.
- [09:50]
A
You know, it's also not synced to our schedules.
- [09:54]
B
It's not our bodies and our phases and how we get energy, and it's really not. So I think a cheat code then for me is like, yeah, a lot of women are either take like creating that side hustle or they're creating that like, small business that they can do on the side while they're still have the income stream coming in. And then once they get that small business build up, they're like, I'm out of here. You know, a lot of people, people that I hear from are just taking space and taking a year off and they're calling it like a power pause. And I think that's really cool too, because people are just like, I don't even know what I'm gonna do next, but I just know I'm not gonna.
- [10:27]
A
Do this power pause. That's a really good one.
- [10:30]
B
Yeah.
- [10:30]
A
Okay, so you're saying if you are feeling that itch of the corporate world is just not made for me as a woman, I don't wanna be here. The first step would be start testing out some of the consulting, coaching, freelancing small business on the side so you can start, get the repetitions, understand how it works, build the confidence to actually leave your job full time.
- [10:53]
B
Yeah. Like, what are the things that light you up? You know, I have a friend who's worked at in corporate finance for 20 years, and she told me last week that she's really, really passionate about coaching kids. And I was like, great, let's turn that into a job for you. Like, how do you think about a plan to quit your job? Maybe that's three years out or five years out or one year out, but how do you, like, build little steps into the process? Like, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? How do you think about quitting your job? You. You map it out and then figure out what that thing is that you are passionate about. Going back to your. To your passion.
- [11:28]
A
That's really, really helpful. Yeah. There's probably so many people listening to this, being like, fuck this. Yeah, fuck the job.
- [11:35]
B
I hate this job.
- [11:36]
A
Corporate world is not made for me.
- [11:37]
B
Corporate world sucks.
- [11:38]
A
It's just not. It sucks. It sucks so bad. I have so many thoughts. Okay, next cheat code. Yeah, this is really helpful for any woman. It's also really helpful if you want to leave your job, and that is to build a personal brand.
- [11:51]
B
Yeah. Honestly, I got a lot of this from you, but I think this idea of visibility is really challenging for women. And I know we've talked about this before, but we're not taught to talk about ourselves. We're not taught that it's okay to take up space. And so building a personal brand. And, like, you know, they. There's a stat that says men are promoted based on potential and women are promoted based on proof. And if you are not talking about yourself and proving out like, I did this, I did this. Here's all of the things. If you're not continuing to talk about yourself, nobody knows what you've done. Nobody knows the great work you've done. We just sit there sort of in a corner with our heads down, working really hard, and we just expect that that's the way that you advance. And it's not, especially in 2025. Like, you have to have some sort of visibility engine to get. To get yourself seen.
- [12:43]
A
Yeah. As Austin Kleon says, if your work is not online, it doesn't exist.
- [12:48]
B
Yes.
- [12:48]
A
Powerful.
- [12:49]
B
Yes.
- [12:50]
A
What are some of the wins or successes or things that have happened as you committed to building your personal brand? You've been in the game for a bit, you've had a podcast, you've been active on social. What are some of the wins that people could expect after building your personal brand for a year or two or three? Yeah.
- [13:08]
B
You just, first of all, people start to come up to you. I do a lot of events for work and people start to come up to you and be like, oh, I've seen your stuff, like, you're doing amazing. I'd love to come up on your podcast or I'd love to hear what you're doing more. Let's have a meeting. So I think it's just a conversation starter for one, and then two is I've closed clients from it. I do PR and marketing. I run an agency. I've closed new clients because they're like, hey, I saw your post. They'll book a 15 minute calendly with me. And then all of a sudden I have a new client. So it's that idea of like, if a tree falls in the wood and no one hears it, did it happen? And so if you're not talking about yourself and you're not talking about your, you know, putting your voice out there, putting your work out there, putting your point of view out there, then nobody knows.
- [13:51]
A
What would you tell someone that is afraid of being seen?
- [13:55]
B
A lot of the work that I do is giving people permission and especially like the female execs I work with. Yeah, post the thing, you know, try it. Like, you know, I've even had this with you before where I've been like, I almost threw up after that post, you know, but it's like, try it, do it, have courage, stand on your your two feet, ground into the ground and like say the. And so I've had many, especially female leaders that I've worked with in the past two years that have started to get proactive. I had one of my clients just got invited to do a 3,500person conference on stage. They flew her to like the UAE for it. She got to keynote this crazy conference. I mean, like that again, like, once you start saying things, once you start going on podcasts, once you start writing and having a POV online, once you start, you know, sharing what you, what you think, like people, people take notice and then they start to invite you.
- [14:52]
A
Totally.
- [14:52]
B
It's like a flywheel.
- [14:54]
A
I love what you said about networking too, because instead of networking and networking and going to these events and trying your best to set up calls, just be someone worth networking with. And when you have a personal brand, those opportunities come to you. So I love that you bring that up because you're at events, you're at conferences, and people are coming up to you being like, oh my God, Lauren, I see your content. Like, I want to be around You, I want to be around what you're makes networking, relationship building just so much easier because you're attracting it rather than going out and having to grab it.
- [15:24]
B
I think that's true. I also think you can develop sort of these, like, parasocial relationships online. Like, I did that with you. Like, we met online and, and then we kind of created this, you know, online friendship. And now we are like IRL friends. And so I think, like, you can create, like, you can, as you said, attract people to you, but you can also create real relationships online that then can become, you know, in person relationships totally.
- [15:51]
A
And there's also different dimensions of opportunity that come. So there's the very obvious of see, click, buy, or somebody sees a post, they recognize they want to work with you, they book a call, they, you close them, or they see your post, they buy your book or whatever. Then there's also the next dimension of people who see your content but don't really do anything about it. They don't, like, they don't comment, whatever, but they see you in person, they recognize you, and now they want to work together, now they want to talk to you. There's also this other dimension of building your personal, building your connections from your personal brand to where now that we're connected via your personal brand, if I have a client that needs PR strategy, like, I'm gonna send them to you. That's not from the obvious layer of I saw your post, I'm sending you a client. It's, we've met, we've seen each other's content, we've developed this relationship online, we've had the repetition, and now you have top of mind awareness in my mind on a lot of things on, on PR and a lot of marketing on women leadership. So it's so much easier for me and everyone you've made connections with. So it just amplifies and amplifies and amplifies and personal brand just from the act of doing something so simple, like going on a few podcasts, posting one time per week brings and magnetizes all these opportunities to you in multiple layers so effortlessly.
- [17:07]
B
Yeah, Posting online creates brain space in people's brains. And then you, you occupy the brain space. And that doesn't necessarily. And sometimes I struggle when I'm trying to explain to a client and I'm like, they're like, well, it's not closing business. And I'm like, right, not today. But most people aren't in market today for your service. They're going to be in market in six months. Or a year or even two years. And so I have had many instances where I had no idea this person was following me. Didn't know that they liked my content, didn't know anything about them, and they'll send a client my way a year and a half, you know, two years after I started the business because they saw my posts online.
- [17:45]
A
Yeah. The way that I explain it to my clients is in the same way that we can own shares of a company, we can also own shares of other people's consciousness.
- [17:54]
B
Yes.
- [17:54]
A
So there's a top of mind awareness exercise where if I ask you name a chef, who's the first person that comes to your mind?
- [18:02]
B
Anthony Bourdain.
- [18:03]
A
Anthony Bourdain owns a piece of your consciousness filed under chefs. So the goal for all the listeners is to own a piece of your audience consciousness filed under whatever your expertise is. And it doesn't have to be expertise like graphic design or coding. It could be something around leadership. It could be this person has great eq, it could be this person is a great person to have a dinner parties. Right. There could be a lot of different files, but it really is owning shares of people's consciousness.
- [18:32]
B
I think you should do a post about that.
- [18:35]
A
I'm writing a TED Talk about it right now.
- [18:38]
B
I love it. It smart.
- [18:40]
A
Okay, next. Cheat code. This one is so fun. And I think a lot of people are going to have resistance to this cheat code too. So we'll see what they think. And that is think and play like a kid.
- [18:51]
B
Oh, yeah, that's big. You. There's no creative idea that has ever come from sitting in a cubicle. And there's no creative idea that has ever come from being scared. And the thing about kids is if you watch them play, or even if you watch dogs in a dog park play, they. First of all, they don't have any fear. They're not being held back because they're, you know, afraid of what people will see or think. If you've ever seen a kid dance, like, they. They don't care that they're dancing badly. Like they're just like overtaken by a rhythm. And so I think that if you can tap into that childlike place inside of you that like, once upon a time did love to play with or create or write or make something before you ever got insecure or, you know, self conscious, you're gonna be able to create the best art.
- [19:42]
A
Yeah, but you're right. No great ideas come from cubicles. They come from. I mean, my best ideas come from when I'm on a walk or I'm having fun or I'm with friends. It's like downloads after downloads.
- [19:54]
B
Yes.
- [19:55]
A
What is a tactical way that someone can implement play today right after they finish listening to this episode?
- [20:01]
B
I think one of the things that's really helpful and if anybody's ever done the artist's way, she talks about finding the thing that you did when you were a kid that brought you joy or that like you love to do. So for me that was performing. I've always been a performer. So like acting or singing or whatever. So when I was trying to tap into that place, I decided to go take improv classes. And that just made me so silly. It like lit me up on the inside. Like it was almost like you go into that flow.
- [20:26]
A
You.
- [20:26]
B
Have you ever been in like a flow state where you're just like, you don't even know are you even in your body anymore? And so I think trying to tap into the things that like you did as a kid, maybe it's drawing and so you get some colored pencils, you turn on some music and you go into the other room and no phones, no. No distractions and you draw or even going to see art can like be very inspirational. So I think like trying to find those times where you can tap into like that childlike play and helps again to like when you're creating content or art or whatever it is that you're trying to create.
- [20:59]
A
So good. One of my favorite ways to tap into play is and anyone can do this right now, go on Spotify and go on the Search bar and type in middle school dance and then the year you're in middle school.
- [21:10]
B
Okay.
- [21:11]
A
And then that's your work playlist for the day. It's like middle school. Okay. Jams from like 2000.
- [21:16]
B
I love it. I have one more Give yourself a. An inner child day. My therapist actually had me do this where you wake up in the morning and you don't. There's no commitments, there's no grown up things that you have to do. There's no bill paying that day. And you give yourself a whole day where you just do what your inner child wants to do. So like, okay, I feel like going to the park. I feel like eating ice cream. I feel like playing with colored rocks at like the art store, whatever it is. Like, give yourself an inner child day. And like, it's kind of crazy. Crazy. What can come out of that?
- [21:47]
A
That's so fun. I think I would go to the American Girl doll store.
- [21:51]
B
Oh, you should do that.
- [21:52]
A
That's cute. We don't have one here, but I can go to Dallas. Okay, next cheat code. Share your failures publicly. I feel like that takes a lot of courage.
- [22:03]
B
Yeah. But weirdly, it's the best. I think it connects you most with people. Like, when you're willing to be vulnerable. That's when people are like, oh, she's vulnerable. I can be vulnerable. Or, I love what you like. Thanks for. For sharing that. I think people see a lot of content online and they get a little bit turned off by, like, it's over polished. It's over. It's per.
- [22:28]
A
It makes.
- [22:28]
B
Everyone's life is perfect. Nobody's life is perfect. Everybody struggles. Everybody's afraid of things. Everyone falls down, Everyone fails. And I think it's the getting back up again and the picking yourself back up. Like, that's the stories we all love to hear. No good story has ever come from, like, she just succeeded. Right. And so I think sharing those things is, like, first of all, it endears you to people. And second of all, it's just. It's very helpful to be vulnerable in that way.
- [22:57]
A
Yeah. Also, I think it creates a lot of trust, especially when I think about social media and creating your personal brand. If everything is a win and everything is perfect and everything is 10 out of 10, five stars, it's kind of. Yeah, I want to see where you fucked up. I know that I'm gonna relate to that a lot more. I think that just brings so much more trust and honesty.
- [23:19]
B
Yeah. Everyone's gotten fired. Everyone's gotten disappointed. Everyone's, you know, so it's just like tapping into the very human experience of survival and suffering. And I think that. Yeah, that. That draws people to you.
- [23:34]
A
I really think we get to normalize failure more, too, because even just being an entrepreneur, you're going to fail every single day over and over and over. You're gonna have massive failures. You're gonna have tiny failures. Failure is part of the game. Like, it literally happens every single day. And I don't know that everybody knows that. I think some people get really discouraged because they start their side hustle, they start their thing, they start posting content, they start the YouTube channel, whatever. They set off to write the book, and they keep running up against roadblocks. Roadblock, roadblock, roadblock. And they think, what's wrong with me? Is there something wrong with me? Should I not be doing it? And they don't know that that's completely normal. That's part of the game. That's going to keep Happening over and over and over. There's no way to avoid it.
- [24:20]
B
Yep.
- [24:20]
A
And I think if we can talk about it more and be more public about it, it will almost be more encouraging for more people to have autonomy and sovereignty in their. Their desire and their mission.
- [24:32]
B
Yeah. I also think that life is full of challenges. Like, that's part of being. Being. And so there's no company that's ever been started that didn't have like a million hiccups and failures along the way. There's no relationship that was perfect every single day. That's just not how it works. And so, yeah, I agree with you. Normalize the falling down, the failures, the times that it sucked, the times that you thought you were about to throw your hands up and quit, like. Cause those are gonna happen.
- [25:00]
A
Yeah. I got a. A cease and desist from someone. It was like a non compete that they thought I had violated, but I didn't. What I.
- [25:08]
B
Whatever.
- [25:08]
A
I got a cease and desist right when I started my business, I was freaking out. I was like, oh, my God, what am I doing? And a mentor of mine was like, congratulations, this is your first little legal dispute. That's such a huge accomplishment.
- [25:22]
B
I like that.
- [25:23]
A
And they're telling me you can't get to higher levels. You can't get to the success you want without this. This is gonna happen. So amazing.
- [25:31]
B
Great job. That's great advice.
- [25:33]
A
Yeah. Like, amazing. Yeah. Also putting it into perspective. Like, there's, there's. It can always be crazier. I was complaining about a failure that I had in my business. Like a launch didn't hit my goal. And my friend who's also an entrepreneur was like, oh, that's funny. Because for me, the failure I'm struggling with right now is that the FDA is after me. And I'm like, okay, it's not that bad that my launch didn't.
- [25:57]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [25:59]
A
That my launch didn't hit what I wanted to.
- [26:01]
B
Yeah. And you know, like, your launches aren't always gonna hit what you exactly thought that they were gonna hit. And like, do you. How do you keep going and moving through that? I read the Dip by Seth Godin.
- [26:12]
A
So good.
- [26:14]
B
It's so good. It's like, it's gonna be bad. So just like, weather the storm, gear up, you know, and get through it.
- [26:21]
A
Yeah. And when things fuck up, there's two options. Like, literally just two. You can give up or you can say, okay, I'm gonna learn from this.
- [26:29]
B
Or you can quit courage.
- [26:30]
A
Or you can quit.
- [26:30]
B
Right?
- [26:31]
A
Yeah, don't quit.
- [26:32]
B
Don't quit, don't quit, don't quit.
- [26:34]
A
Speaking of not quitting, how do you know the difference between intuition and fear?
- [26:42]
B
Well, I think that's an interesting question. Intuition, I think comes from like a deeper sort of gut level of this isn't right for me or this is right for me. Like there's something that sort of tells you. And sometimes I think we can ignore our intuition. I think fear's more in the brain and it's more of a brain activity than a gut activity. And so I think that we can try to override. And I've done this before. Like, I see a red flag and I'm like, or I, I, I join a company, I'm like, something isn't a hundred percent right, but it, but it's really good money. Or I take a client on, I'm not sure if this is a great fit, but the money, I can't pass it up. And then you get into it and you're like, oh, I should have listened to my intuition. But the fear of not getting the money or the fear of not getting that job or is kind of took over. So I think sometimes they can be competing instincts.
- [27:36]
A
Okay, so you're saying that fear more in the head, intuition more gut. Yeah, because I, I find that happens a lot with my clients where they're like, oh, my intuition is telling me not to do this or create this or whatever. And I clock them on. Is that your intuition? Or sometimes it's around boundaries. Is that an intuition or boundary? And it might be. Or is it just a fear? You just keeping yourself small? Are you using this as an excuse? It's really hard to debate with intuition.
- [28:10]
B
Yes. I think that one thing that I've found that works really well when I'm trying to make a big decision or if I'm not sure about something is I try to make sure that my head, my heart and my gut are all aligned. So I will literally go through an exercise where I'm like, well, how does that make me feel in my belly? Okay, how does that make me feel in my heart? Okay, how does that make me feel in my head and the rational side of me? And I'll try to bring those three together to have a, the most aligned decision making process. Because otherwise I can get very head, very fear based. And so I think if you can try to think with all of your centers of intelligence, you can tap into those decisions easier.
- [28:49]
A
That's such a good cheat code. I love it. Wow. Something that I do with my clients is I bring them back to whatever initial goal or vision or plan that they had set and it might have been. My goal is to launch a coaching business and help women get better jobs. And I want to do that through starting a podcast. And here's the steps to get there. And what I find is when we go back to those steps, a lot of times the. The person that was in vision, instead of being in the fear that created that, they can almost like merge back in with that person and be able to see if, okay, yes, I just have an intuitive hit that a podcast isn't the right direction. I want to go YouTube instead. Or maybe it's a fear that's like procrastinating from that initial vision.
- [29:34]
B
I also think sometimes we may have a goal and something we want to achieve, and we go overly into the planning stage. And so we're like, oh, I'm going to do this and then I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this. And it's like one thing that I'm working on right now is letting things unfold a bit before I go overly making plans about it. Because that's when you can get into a situation of like, well, I know I have to do a podcast in order to launch a coaching business. And it's like, that's not necessarily true. Like, are we going through all of the steps in the right way? Do you know what I mean?
- [30:08]
A
Yeah. Definitely. Brings us perfectly to our next Sheikah. Intuition, alignment and rituals. You use these as business tools.
- [30:17]
B
Yeah.
- [30:18]
A
Tell me more.
- [30:19]
B
Yes. So I think that living a healthy life and having a healthy business kind of go hand in hand. And so having a. Using your intuition, being a good human being, creating scenarios in business that are win, win, win, where, like, you're winning, the client's winning, and the team is winning or whatever. Right. Where everyone is sort of winning and creating value. You're creating value for people and they're in turn creating value for you. Like, I think that that makes you have a stronger business and be a better leader. And so I think, like, you know, sometimes we separate ourselves out, like, well, this is business. It's not personal. And it's like, it's all personal.
- [31:00]
A
It's all related. It's all related together.
- [31:02]
B
It's all together. So, like, how you want to live as a human is the same as how you should run a business.
- [31:06]
A
Yeah. It is funny when people think they're that it's different, they're like, oh, well, I don't act that way. In my business or that's. I'm like, yeah, you do. You can't.
- [31:16]
B
You're the same person. Well, it's interesting. You have said before, like, you shouldn't have different, like, social media presences, for example, for like, your business or for your podcast or for yourself. It's like you're one person. Show up as one person.
- [31:30]
A
I think that you can do that eventually, but when you're starting, that takes away. A lot of people come to me and they're like, courtney, I want to start freelance graphic design. Should I make a freelance graphic design Courtney Instagram page? And then a Courtney Instagram page and then an Instagram page for Courtney cooking. Because I like cooking on the side. I'm like, absolutely not. You're not going to maintain all that. It's unrealistic. And you are going to be boring. Like, if you only talk about graphic design and nothing else, yeah, that's gonna be boring. If you only talk about cooking and nothing else, that's probably gonna be boring. Like, nobody watches Nara Smith just for the recipes. She's interesting. She brings in fashion and beauty and like, all these other aspects of her life. Or like the ballerina farm girly. People don't watch her just for the recipe. It's for the dance and for the mom stuff. It's all of this stuff, all of you. And so when you bring all of you together, that's what creates a category of one. That's what makes you different from other people. Yeah. Now, I think, like, Selena Gomez is a great example. Selena Gomez doesn't have, like, Selena Gomez makeup, Selena Gomez music, Selena Gomez acting. It's all Selena Gomez. And she's the top followed woman on Instagram. Now, of course, she has her brands and the brands have brand pages and that's great and that's helpful and you need that. However, if you're starting, you probably don't have the budget and the time to create these five different pages and five different brands. Start with one. Start with yourself. Create that category of one for you. And then when you're ready, sure, maybe make another page for your company or whatever, but you just don't. It's very rare that I see someone that needs that.
- [33:02]
B
Yeah. It also goes back to the, like, you're overly. You're getting into planning instead of like, here's the goal and how do I get there exactly?
- [33:10]
A
Ooh. Planning as a procrastination because it feels productive.
- [33:13]
B
But, like, you might just be doing a bunch of random things that don't add up. To anything.
- [33:18]
A
Exactly. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I. I see that so much. Like, well, Courtney, I just haven't posted yet because. Or I haven't made the link yet. Or I haven't whatever yet because I need to finish these 10 steps first. Or I need the pro. The process isn't optimized enough.
- [33:32]
B
Right. You are the one creating all of these steps. Like, you can just eliminate them.
- [33:38]
A
The process isn't going to be optimized until you execute on it.
- [33:41]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's another thing is you, like, you have to just start doing things. You have to create actions in order for momentum to come.
- [33:50]
A
Like, momentum.
- [33:50]
B
Momentum doesn't start first. First comes the action. First comes the doing and the making of something and the trying, and then you optimize it. You gotta throw spaghetti at the wall first.
- [34:00]
A
Exactly. Like, we wouldn't. What iPhone are we on? The 19.
- [34:04]
B
Yeah.
- [34:04]
A
We wouldn't be on the iPhone 19 without the iPod and the iPhone 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5. If they were like, oh, we're gonna wait until this is all perfect. We would never get there.
- [34:13]
B
Right.
- [34:14]
A
And the. The feedback is really important too. You're getting feedback from your audience as you go through the iteration. That could be feedback. Feedback from your clients, feedback from your customers, whatever. You cannot be at V10 without starting with V1.
- [34:29]
B
Right.
- [34:29]
A
What other rituals do you use as business tools? I love the head, heart, gut one.
- [34:36]
B
Yeah. I think that another ritual that I do is I try to have people come. Like, I do a lot of events, and so when I'm bringing people together, I try to. Well, the number one thing I hate when I do events is going to something, and then you're stood around and you're just like, awkwardly like, so what are you doing? You don't know who to talk to. So I try to, like, bring, like, ritual to the experience where it's like, okay, we're all gonna put our phone away and we're all going to, like, open our notebook and we're gonna read this thing and we're gonna take a breath together, whatever it is. Like, I like to create rituals whenever you're having any kind of gathering, because it, like, signifies we're in this gathering together. So I think that's another one. And then I think, think, you know, for me, I have this thing on my desk that says, what can I give? Every time I'm about to go into a meeting, even if I only have 10 seconds, I take a breath, I ground into the floor, and I say, what can I give? And it just sets you up for that conversation to be such a more valuable and like, meaningful experience.
- [35:37]
A
I love that you are the master at hosting events and organizing events and. And facilitating people's connections at events. I really admired that about the event that we did for south by Southwest. It wasn't like, we're standing around, who do I talk to? This is kind of weird and awkward. Yeah, it was really organic. I think we had like, groups that used to put us into. With questions. Do you have any other cheat codes around running really successful events?
- [36:07]
B
Yeah, people want to be told what to do. And I think a lot of times where people fall down is they're like, oh, I don't wanna. You know, these are senior executives. I don't wanna like, tell the ce. Whatever the. Where to sit or what to say or how to show up. And I'm like, well, that person needs it even more.
- [36:21]
A
Right.
- [36:22]
B
Like, tell the people where to sit, tell them what to talk, to stand up. Sometimes I'm even like, okay, like, time's up. Now we're going to move on to this. Or like, people want to be led, they want to be guided. And that makes for such deeper connections and relationships than just letting people have like a free for all. Like, it's almost shirking your responsibility as a host.
- [36:40]
A
Yeah. And for people listening, listening, being like, well, I don't run any events. Like, why is this valuable for me? Even, like running a dinner party at your house. Yeah. Even bringing a few people together to work at a co. Working space during the day. You are leading.
- [36:55]
B
Yes.
- [36:56]
A
You are facilitating and leading. So how can you create.
- [36:59]
B
Hosting a meeting.
- [37:00]
A
Yeah. Hosting a meeting. So true.
- [37:01]
B
Yeah. I mean, there's an amazing book called the Art of Gathering by Priya Parker, and she talks about anything over two people is a gathering. And if you're the host of the gathering, you have responsibilities. And here's how you can. You know, how to be a bad host is to sort of just let it. Like, imagine going to a dinner party and the host just like sits everyone at the table, doesn't introduce people, and everyone's just sort of like, I don't. You know, But a good host is like curating that whole entire experience. And like, here's what you're. We're going to talk about or here's what, you know, they. They guide you along the path.
- [37:33]
A
That's great. I'm going to read this book.
- [37:34]
B
Yeah, you have to. It's amazing. One of my favorites does.
- [37:37]
A
Is there any other cheat Codes from that book that you found a lot.
- [37:40]
B
Of value in, in always asking why. A lot of times people will do events like a birthday party or a bridal shower or a baby shower or whatever it is, a wedding or a corporate event or. I. A lot of times my clients are like, well, we want to do a dinner at this, at Advertising Week.
- [37:57]
A
Okay.
- [37:58]
B
Why? For what? People get obsessed with the format instead of the outcome. What I try to get them to say is I want to bring people together and facilitate a conversation around this topic so that I can meet my prospects and then have them meet each other and create a networking group for them. Okay. That's a purpose and that's something I can sink my teeth into. But I want to do a birthday party. Okay. That's just a format. I want to celebrate life with the people I care about most. Great. That's going to shape how you throw that birthday party. You know what I mean?
- [38:34]
A
Yeah. I think that's just bringing intention into what you're doing.
- [38:37]
B
Exactly.
- [38:37]
A
Oftentimes we're making so many decisions unconsciously and by creating intention, we can actually direct it towards wherever we want to go. Yeah. So good. Okay. What do you think about networking for or not networking? Creating events for lead generation.
- [38:55]
B
I think that creating events for lead generation is too transactional. And I think that you have to, because people can feel, when an event feels transactional, like, you're going to come to this, you're going to give me my time and in exchange. Or you're going to give me the time and in exchange I'm going to make you talk to this like sales guy that you don't want to talk to. Yeah, nobody wants to do that.
- [39:16]
A
Yeah.
- [39:17]
B
And so I think events have to be almost one level up and they have to be about connection and humans. What I work in a very sales heavy industry. What I always try to do is say like, this is about the human, this is about the connection. This is about, you know, talking about getting deeper, getting a level deeper. And then you can build that relationship and you can sell them in three months. But you can't do it today. Today.
- [39:40]
A
Yeah. Same as, as personal brands. So it's. We're planting the seeds of relationship. We're building relationships and when the audience comes to their buying decision, they're naturally gravitating towards you.
- [39:51]
B
Right.
- [39:52]
A
I'm curious of how you think of like masculine and feminine energies in business and sales. Because what I find is a lot of times we're over indexing on masculine energy of sales, of Wanting it to be really predictable. Like how many, many sales qualified leads did I get from this event? And I need their exact names and we need to put them into a pipeline at this exact cadence. And it just doesn't always work. In fact, that can turn off people. So I think the feminine side is being able to see it from the layer above of we're building relationships, we're really establishing a lot of trust and for the, the, the, the people that are going to be interested, like it's gonna naturally unfold. But we need the structure of the masculine too. So how, how do you you think about masculine and feminine energies in. In sales and marketing?
- [40:37]
B
I think that's a really good point about the masculine and feminine because I think a lot of times when I was working for a company full time, that was one of the things I'd struggle with. I always ran marketing and PR and I always had a female team. And the sales team was generally the CRO was generally a man. And so I would be fit. Quite frustrated by that question of like, well, how many. How much revenue did the, did the dinner drive or how much revenue did the event that we did at can drive at a. And I was like, I don't know, zero. But look at all these amazing people that came in these amazing relationships. So what I ended up fix, I figured out a way to do it which was have that bring that feminine side where you're bringing people together, you're. You're kind of connecting them on a human level. But then I figured out how to tag them so that we could see that if revenue came in six months later, eight months later, 10 months later, we knew that we could attribute some of that revenue back to that route original event.
- [41:32]
A
So you're passing the leads off to sales and you're working with them to make sure that the attribution or there's some sort of tag.
- [41:38]
B
I would just tag them in the system myself and then I'd be like, okay, like, oh, we saw revenue come in six months later, we're taking 50% of that as attribution.
- [41:48]
A
Love it. I find attribution to be so hard.
- [41:50]
B
It's so hard.
- [41:51]
A
It's my least favorite part. I know. It's like if someone could solve the attribution game, they would be a trillionaire.
- [41:57]
B
Yeah.
- [41:57]
A
This is why I ask everyone their wins at the end of content club every single day. Because a lot of times we think in the masculine way of I posted that I got a client, which can happen and does happen. But what we Often miss is the little wins. The little wins of I was at an event and someone recognized me yesterday. A friend texted me and said that my post really helped them. Or I didn't get any sales today, but I noticed that when I posted that my website traffic increased.
- [42:27]
B
Yeah.
- [42:27]
A
So to be able to see the wins, you can start to see in your mind how like the whole funnel and how they all come together to support your goals and the impact you want to have, rather than just seeing it as C click buy. Because that's so. It's not rare. It's just, it's not how humans operate. It's putting people's behavior in a box that happens. The, the true impact happens outside that box.
- [42:51]
B
It's also smart because you're not not necessarily able to help attribute all of your client successes. But if you can help them to see it, then it like the light, the light shines on you.
- [43:02]
A
Definitely. And I also find that when people see their wins every single day, they start to notice wins in other areas of their life. They celebrate their wins and their workouts or their family or relationship a lot more organically. It's like habit building around wins. Yeah.
- [43:16]
B
I mean as humans, we're programmed to like look at the negative and I think every time that you can just, just refocus yourself to look on the positive, it's, it's better for you.
- [43:24]
A
Do you have any habit building cheat codes?
- [43:26]
B
I'm really bad at habits.
- [43:28]
A
Really? Your content habit is great.
- [43:30]
B
Oh, thanks. Yeah, I, I'm trying. I, I show up to content club every day because I'm like, I'm, I'm making this a priority for myself and then I can also basket it into that one hour of time and then I don't have to think about it for the rest of the day, which is really nice. I do have a couple habits that.
- [43:44]
A
I stick to before you get to that. So content club is the cheat code.
- [43:47]
B
It is a cheat code.
- [43:48]
A
Content club is cheat code.
- [43:49]
B
It is a real cheat code. It really is. I mean the, I started in April and April to October. Like the, the growth has been crazy.
- [43:58]
A
Yeah.
- [44:00]
B
My morning habit is I wake up every morning, I make a cup of coffee and I meditate with a red light mask on. And then I work out. So I always try to get those two things out of the way in the morning because I know the rest of the day could go crazy. Could, could be, I could be really tired, whatever. So those are the two things I stick to every day. But other than that, I'm not like a super habit person. I kind of can be all over the place.
- [44:22]
A
Red light in the morning is a really good habit. I love pairing that with meditation because you kind of can't do anything else because you can't see. You can't see, and it's something you can do in bed.
- [44:32]
B
Yeah.
- [44:32]
A
If I have a day where I'm super lazy and I can't get out of bed, I'm like, I'm just gonna floss in bed. I'm gonna red light in bed. Because it's just creating one step.
- [44:41]
B
Yes.
- [44:42]
A
That's great. Great. Our last cheat code is fancy word hyperbolic discounting. The cheat code is to avoid hyperbolic discounting. What is. What does this mean?
- [44:52]
B
Yeah. So the idea is that you're always going to assume that your future self is going to be more together, less busy, more perfect. And this is why a lot of times we'll, like, say yes to plans that we wouldn't say yes to if it was today, but we'll say yes to it to our three. Our three months from now self will say yes or our year from now self will want to do that. And so the idea is actually think of who you are today and act according to who you are today. The other idea kind of in that is we sometimes as humans, we want tomorrow to be better than today, and we think tomorrow's gonna be better than today. And for me, a lot of the work that I do in my spiritual practice is just being in the moment, being in today. This moment is enough. This moment is okay. Because if I go too far into the planning zone or tomorrow or three months from now, Lauren, it's just like, it's. I live too much in my head in that way. So I think the cheat code is like, try as much as you can to, like, be in this moment.
- [45:55]
A
So good. So good. Well, Lauren, how can people find you.
- [46:00]
B
And work with you? Yeah. So my. My handles on social are Lauren the seeker. Because I'm always seeking out how. How to figure out this life. And my business is called Reverb, and it's a marketing and PR agency.
- [46:13]
A
Amazing. Well, thank you for coming on the pod.
- [46:15]
B
Thanks for having me. This is so.