A (3:00)

I think when you use the term random, that's from the victim's perspective.

B (3:04)

Yes, good point.

A (3:06)

So you know, like the types of cases that I worked, the offender is often a stranger to the victim, and the victim doesn't know that he or she is about to be victimized. But the offender is often planning that attack well in advance. That type of offender has an agenda to inflict violence of some sort in the types of crimes that I would go after. And so they've put a lot of thought into it. And so this is where now what the victim is going to experience is going to be horrific. But you can also have types of cases, and this is where, like Dan and Dave and their experience out on patrol, where you have, let's say the psychotic offender who literally is just going down, and whoever he runs across, he's going to do something to, you know, so that's where I think the term random probably is, is more appropriate, because it's random to the offender. It's going to be whoever I run across, and it's random to the victim.

B (4:08)

As opposed to somebody like Joseph d', Angelo, who the people he was first burglarizing, then raping and murdering, they didn't know him necessarily, but he had long targeted them.

A (4:20)

You know, we still don't know how DeAngelo selected his victims, but I do believe that there was a fair number that he had put under surveillance. He planned his attack ahead of time. There were some. Several very obvious victims of opportunity, you know, and this was where he was out prowling, and this woman would not have normally been there, and she just happened to show up. And he decided, okay, she will be the one tonight.

B (4:44)

Right, Dan? Dave.

D (4:47)

I think the terrifying aspect of it, you probably weren't aware that you were being targeted by folks that Paul's talking about. My mind goes to a different place, though. You see now, especially with social media, like the streets of New York and these guys walking down the street and a random woman walking the opposite direction, just minding their business, walking to their job, walking back to their apartment. And it's become kind of an epidemic in larger cities is these guys will film themselves while they assault somebody completely at random, and the offender punches a woman in the face, all for the joy of the offender and to get likes and the wow factor on social media. And I think that that's another thing that, you know, 15, 20 years ago, that wasn't even on our radar, really. That just didn't happen. And now you see, especially with the advent of social media, that the news cycle changes so quickly. Incidents that happen are on the Internet within minutes of them occurring or sometimes even live and that's something that you, as just a normal everyday citizen walking down the street in a large city that you have to be aware of and try to combat against. It's a different landscape now, obviously, I think the nightmare scenario is the stuff that Paul's talking about, where you've got a guy like BTK or the Golden State Killer, these other serial killers and serial rapists that have been out there in our history. I look back at a case that was early on in my career. We did two episodes on it. It's called Monster Part one and two. I think it was in season two that was a random attack on a little girl. The offender in this situation was looking for a victim, had not targeted her other than the fact that she was on the street.

B (6:44)

It was broad daylight, she was playing in her driveway or something.

D (6:48)

She was riding her bike. It was the first time she was ever allowed to ride her bike down to her friend's house. And this gentleman had stolen a car, had completed an attack the day before in a neighboring jurisdiction and was prowling looking for a victim. And this little girl just ended up in front of him in his eyesight, and he decided he was going to act on it. And, you know, a terrible attack on this little girl. She was sexually assaulted, she was kidnapped. She was injured by the initial assault. She got knocked off her bike by the car that this offender was driving. And that's every parent's nightmare that shocks the conscience of the public because no one feels safe anymore.

B (7:33)

Right.

E (7:34)

That's my only add to this, is that the reason these are so shocking is there's no way to prepare for a lot of these attacks. Truly. Like, you're surprised you're ambushed. Shit that cowards do, shit that predators do. You know, we talk about situational awareness, but that only goes so far. You can't get into the mind of somebody walking your direction on the sidewalk. What I do is try to give myself some space, and I try to size up every person that's walking in my direction. So I know what I might have to deal with if something goes sideways as we pass. And that's just me being situationally aware. I'm not being paranoid. I'm just sizing up every person in my vicinity that could potentially be a target. I got really good at it as a cop. I continue to do it today because it's survival.

B (8:29)

Yeah. And I would say, too, one of the things that you've all said in previous episodes of the podcast is if you are attacked, whatever you can do to not get moved to a second location. So let's say, you know, you're putting money in the parking meter, somebody attacks you on the sidewalk, and they want to drag you into their car. Fight like hell to make sure you don't get into the car. Because whatever happens to you on the sidewalk won't be as bad as what will happen to you if you get into the car. Now, they might shoot you, you might die, but you'll surely die if they get you in the car. That's a rather lumpy way of saying it, but basically fight your fucking ass off.

E (9:10)

Yeah. And convenience store type robberies where you got the clerk tied up in the back office. And the whole ploy by the robber was, hey, if you go with the program, I'm going to tie you up. I just don't want to have to worry about you. But if you go with the program, I'm cutting you loose and I'm out of here with your cash. And it turns into a murder for no reason with a cooperative victim who went into handcuffs or zip ties or whatever from someone in this industry. I always said, unless I've got a gun to me and it's my last option, you're not cuffing me. You're not putting me in zip ties. I'm not going somewhere with you. I'll die on my terms right here, not on your terms, somewhere else.

B (9:51)

Right. And Paul, you have kids, and I remember we were talking the other day, and your youngest daughter, I mean, you've said to her, just don't get moved to a second location.

A (10:05)

Yeah, all the kids, boys and girls, it doesn't matter whoever's grabbing you, if they have a gun or a knife. You make as much noise as possible. You fight, you use your body weight, you go limp. You do not let them get you to the car. And just sort of like what you said earlier is that whatever happens to them after they're in the car is going to be far worse than what they'll experience out there on the sidewalk or at the park. You don't ever want to get to a second location. You don't ever want to be bound. You know, those are really the two indicators that, okay, something really bad is about to happen.

B (10:42)

That's such a grim set of options.

E (10:46)

Criminals going, well, I got a gun pointed at this person. They'll go into handcuffs or they'll go into zip ties, or they'll tie up their. Their significant other. And I understand, like, you got a gun in your face. I'm trying to Survive. I'm gonna have to figure this out as I go. That's one scenario. There's so many examples of people being cooperative because the suspect didn't want to cause a commotion by firing while someone's protesting about going into zip ties. And then once they're in zip ties, now suspect is completely in control. And now you have no options. I just rather have options on my feet before I get bound. I'm going to fight you to the death. That's a personal thing. That's me going, no fucking way.

A (11:29)

You know, and there is some context. You know, this is like when we talk about d' Angelo and Golden State Killer, when you have a man showing up in the middle of night with a gun, but he now wants to bind you. The gun is the ultimate control. So why does he want to bind? Because he wants to do more than just go through your house. And you know, when you start talking about these fantasy motivated killers, once they have a victim completely in control by being bound, that's when the knife comes out. That's when the sexual assault occurs. And so resisting getting to that helpless spot to where now the offender can just take his time and do what he wants to do. And that's when I say things get horrific really fast once you are taken to a second location and or you are bound.

E (12:16)

That scene in the Zodiac at Lake Berryessa, perfect example. Yeah, yeah, I would encourage people to watch that movie. It's actually pretty good. But there's a scene in that movie where two early twenties man and woman are out just having a picnic out in a grassy hillside overlooking a lake. And all of a sudden these two 20 year olds notice there's kind of a creepy guy in a weird kind of outfit costume who's hiding behind a tree and peeking out, looking at them. They're like, okay, that's kind of weird. Fast forward a few minutes. And now cutting out a lot of details here, but suspect walks up on them holding a knife, says, hey to the female, tie up your boyfriend. Then the female gets tied up. And the voice track from suspect is, I'm just here for money. I'm here to rob you and I'm going to take your money. Once both victims are bound and immobile, then the stabbing starts.

B (13:12)

Right?

A (13:13)

Of course, very familiar with Zodiac and this Lake Berryessa scene because he, Zodiac throws the bindings to the woman, makes her tie up the male, and then he comes up and ties the female. And then that's when he gets on top of each one of them and Starts stabbing. Dave, you mentioned that Zodiac showed up with a knife. I thought the Zodiac showed up with a gun initially and through the bindings, you know, but I might be off on that.

E (13:38)

I think you are right.

A (13:40)

But you see what you know in both circumstances, how the offender is using a controlling weapon but then is utilizing binding. So now at less risk to the offender, he can approach and do what he wants to do. At Lake Berryessa, it was to kill via stabbing.

E (13:56)

I want to be clear, I'm not victim blaming. I understand you get overwhelmed and you're all of a sudden it's like you got a gun in your face. Oh, shit, I got to survive. I'm just saying I've already had that conversation with myself that if I'm ever in this circumstance, no way, or I'll die trying.

A (14:13)

This is more, I think, educating the listeners about these offenders because they are going to think, well, as long as I cooperate, he's going to be a nice guy, he's just going to take my wallet and leave. No, there's a chance that that might happen. However, the high risk thing to the victim themselves is when they do just acquiesce and let the offender take complete control. And if you have the wrong offender, then you are just going to have a horrific last few moments of your life.

B (14:47)

Right. Do you think that with the advent of social media and everybody has a phone and will still refer to them as random attacks, do you think it makes them less frequent, harder to carry out? Because some person across the street is filming you, they won't help the person who's being attacked. But I got you on camera.

E (15:10)

I think there's a yes and no to that. I see example after example of the public with their phones, video recording something horrible happening right in front of them and not doing anything. Sometimes they're appalled and yelling at the person, stop. But they don't do anything to help.

D (15:26)

At least call 911 and stop filming.

A (15:28)

Yeah. You know, Dan brought up the example of individuals, let's say in New York, that are just randomly, you know, punching women, elderly people and filming themselves doing it so they can upload it into social media. But you know, fundamentally what it comes down to is why is this offender doing this? It's for their own personal gratification. But it's not sexually motivated, it's not fantasy motivated, it's not financially motivated. It's that inner personal gratification that motivates that particular type of offender. And that's really fundamentally what crime is, is that whether let's say it's the burglars that Dan would go after. They get something psychologically for committing the burglaries and committing the crime. But there's that financial benefit that they have, and that's their inner drive. It really comes down to they're hurting people for personal reasons.

E (16:20)

It's hard to convince people that evil exists and that. I've seen it. I've been in the room with it. Dan has. I know you have, Yardley. I know Paul has. Some people are naive and they're just in denial of the fact that there are people out there that just don't give a. If you're begging for your life, that that's actually better for the offender. And when you divorce yourself from thinking in such a. I hate to say naive, but really, it's like an uninformed position. You put yourself at risk for greater trauma. So I truly, like. I just don't live in that space. I've been exposed to a lot before I was ever a cop. I didn't live in that space because I lived in big cities and I had seen happen. So you just have to divorce yourself from this thought that everyone else thinks like you and would treat and be compassionate like you would. The reason we had jobs is because this exists. I never ignore that. I'm always aware of it.

C (17:18)

Dan's aware of it. Yardley. I know you're aware of it.

E (17:20)

Paul is too. You just have to get yourself into a mindset where you're like, people are capable of anything. I've seen doctors do horrible shit. I've seen lawyers, priests. I've seen all the best people do really, really evil shit. You just gotta wake up.

B (17:37)

Right?

A (17:37)

I was just thinking because kind of along the lines of. We're talking about, don't go to a second location. Don't get bound. You know, I would do a lot of citizens academies, you know, and talk about the types of cases I was going after, including serial predator stuff. And of course, women are asking me, well, how do I, you know, how.

B (17:56)

Do I defend myself?

A (17:58)

My answer has always been, you know, you fight. You know, you fight for your life. But one of the interesting little twists to this is I've talked about the rape deepest typologies. Power reassurance, power assertive sexual sadist. And your anger retaliatory. And in fact, I interviewed a woman who was attacked. She was a hitchhiker in 1969 out of Berkeley. And this guy took her up into the hills in my jurisdiction and is raping her in the front seat of his car. She thought, I'm dead, you know. And so she starts stroking the back of his neck. And as soon as she did that, he stopped and pushed up off of her and then literally just drove away. There's another case where a guy picked up a sex worker and was stabbing her all over her body. This is sort of like picarism. And she's going, I'm dead. And she went limp. Instead of fighting because she was fighting this whole time, she goes limp and he stops and walks away. This is your sexual sadist. And so I always tell, you know, you fight for your life. But if you can tell that the guy just seems to be getting more and more excited, try going limp for a moment. And if he doesn't stop, then you re engage and you fight for your life.

B (19:13)

It's really well said. But also if you are already under the person and he's raping you, we're pretty far down the line.

E (19:21)

It's about survival at that point, 100%.

B (19:24)

And to your point, Dave, like, listen, if anybody who is listening to this particular Patreon episode feels like, well, I didn't do that and I survived, thank God. Seriously, thank God. We are not here to say that you should have handled your situation differently. Not at all. Whatever you needed to do to survive that horrific scenario was the right thing to do.

E (19:49)

Absolutely.

B (19:50)

But the sort of blanket advice is don't get moved to a second location and don't get bound. If you can avoid those two things, chances are you have a better chance of survival. Yeah, you guys are great. I like being part of trying to educate, you know, you guys are such a wealth of knowledge and experience. I think it's unusual and very special and appreciate your generosity.

E (20:13)

Absolutely.

A (20:14)

It's a pleasure being here. Thank you.

B (20:20)

Well, small town fam, I hope you loved that. As much as we loved recording it, Here is one more episode that feels particularly timely right now. This one's called AI Strikes Again. Hey, small town super fam. It's Yardley. How are you guys? I'm so happy that you are here with me. And I am here with Detective Dan.

E (20:56)

Hello there.

B (20:56)

Hello, hello you and Detective Dave.

C (21:00)

Good morning. Wherever you may be.

B (21:02)

Wherever you may be. Small town superfam. So we have this very interesting question come up. The question is for Dave and for Dan. A guy was apparently arrested for creating child pornography using AI So he did not actually have any three dimensional, red blooded little children in front of him to create this AI but he did it using. However AI works So obviously it creates a question of morality. If you don't actually harm any individuals in the making of this content, and I assume trading it and doing whatever sex offenders do with that stuff, are you as culpable as somebody who is actually in the presence of children while they create this horrible content?

C (22:00)

It depends.

B (22:01)

It always depends.

C (22:04)

You know, my last year being a detective was more than a half a decade ago. At that time, AI creator suspect, according to our laws, has not committed any crime by creating child sex abuse material that doesn't involve an actual human victim. So we've talked about AI a couple of times. I think we had Paul Holes present for part of that conversation. But we talk about law enforcement always being reactive. Right. And so I speak to this from a sex crimes investigator perspective is that over the years, the people who trained me had to react to film and negatives and actual hard copy photos that soon became digitized and put on CDs and put on floppy disks and put on hard drives and then cell phones come along. Now we're at AI where people can create very, very realistic images with quality that lots of people would look and go, I mean, that looks like it really happened. I mean, it doesn't look like a cartoon, it doesn't look like anime. But I've had cases in the past where I had suspects where when I get into their computer hard drives, there's lots of cartoon, anime, child sex abuse material. And none of it could be charged because it's all make believe. And it goes back to our Constitution, which is freedom of speech. And you have a right to be sexually attracted to kids. You do. You don't have a right to commit crimes against children. You have a right to think nonstop about blowing up buildings. You don't have a right to go.

E (23:48)

Blow up the building.

C (23:50)

So you need the act plus the intent. And it all has to involve real things, real people, real victims. And so I think that legislatures are going to have to respond to this AI creation because I think it's way beyond what the police can handle at. You know, talk about Dan and I's agency. It's a pretty small agency. Do I have an AI trained person who can determine whether or not a clip is real or fake? And are we charging people with that based on this person's opinion? Sometimes if they're not trained on whether or not they can identify if it's real or fake. And now people are going to prison based off of fake things that weren't crimes a couple years ago. Now, I'm all for Sending people that shouldn't be breathing our air to prison. I'm way against sending people to prison for not committing crimes and not victimizing people. Again, I don't agree with it, but you can think about doing lots of things until you act. You're in the clear. You're playing by the rules when you act now, you're out of bounds and now the police can have a say. But it's up to legislators and policymakers to tell us where those boundaries are. And I imagine that you won't see like a very reasoned, well thought out strategy on AI with police departments, like where it's universal, like it's not just the departments with the most resources, that it's universal. That's going to be years from now, it's not months.

B (25:28)

Right. I wonder. This idea of creating child pornography with AI, as you say, if you haven't actually harmed a human being in making that content, is actually not unlike in a movie or a slasher film or whatever, a horrible violent murder taking place, but nobody was actually harmed. You don't go and arrest the producer and the director and the writer. Right.

C (25:59)

And we all recognize filmmaking is art. That's a form of expression. And so if we're going to charge certain people for making up fake realistic looking images and movies, what kind of door does that open? We always come back to this. When a reasonable person reads this statute, what do they read? And that's why we have the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court, because they interpret what all of those laws and the wording that goes into them. And they're really the gatekeepers when it comes to these things, the courts. But legislatures push through unconstitutional laws all the time and then later it gets deemed that's unconstitutional. You guys overreached. So, AI, I'm glad I'm not in the realm because I have no idea how do you, what do you do?

B (26:53)

And you would have to apply that sanction across the board. Right. So to your point, even though I don't think anybody in their right mind would argue that creating child porn with AI is art, but how is that again different from creating a murder scene in a film, which we do consider art? Right. So that is a slippery slope.

C (27:15)

And I'm not suggesting people being murdered in movies should be a criminal thing. Like we're being very clear here, like when does art become criminal? And I think for everyone involved, that's a First Amendment issue that should be handled by the courts and not by police.

B (27:33)

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying, like if you're really just talking about what we're describing on paper, then are they that different harm is being brought to both imaginary subjects in those scenarios? Right.

C (27:50)

And to me, it's different. Like AI with child sex abuse material. To me, if I had my way, it would be criminal, totally. But I also recognize the argument to me, knowing sex offenders will look for anything they can do to avoid criminal charges for satisfying their sexual desires. And we know the gamut sexual desires could be just looking from afar to the other end, where we've had lots of guests tell horrible stories on here. So where do you draw the line on the spectrum of what we're deeming a child sex offender or this is. This idea of which still drives me nuts. Folks who keep pushing this minor attracted person don't even. Right. I'm like, well, I mean, that's gentle language to describe someone who wants to have sex with kids. Like, don't make that a term that's remotely normalized.

B (28:52)

Yeah, totally agree.

C (28:53)

And maybe I'm too old school for nowadays, but I just, I have a problem with that. And I recognize that there are certain folks who recognize that that's a thing. And I mean, I just don't subscribe to that ideology. I see it as pure harm. Nothing but harm can come from someone producing an AI movie of children being abused and put it out there and hide behind. Well, it's totally fake. I just faked it. Well, it's not fake to the consumer who tracks that down and then throws it on their laptop and watches it every night. To me, you're creating, you know, synthetic drugs.

B (29:39)

It's true.

C (29:40)

It's a synthetic alternative to the real thing. Does that make it less than the real thing? I don't know. Much smarter people make these laws and much smarter people interpret them.

B (29:51)

It's such a good question, though. And I'm sure territory that when the last batch of laws that apply to sex offenders were made was not even on the menu.

E (30:06)

Right.

C (30:06)

Who could imagine this?

B (30:08)

Exactly. And of course, AI obviously has some really beneficial uses as well, but sadly, it's like the Internet. Like, the Internet could be a great place. It turns out to be mostly a terrible neighborhood because there are always bad actors and who go like, oh my God, I have this kind of resource and they abuse it. And so, you know where AI can make huge advances in medicine and science and language and all those things, it also has the dark side.

C (30:41)

Yeah, Technology, Cell phones. Great for tons of things. In Dan's world and my world, cell phones were used as repositories of information regarding criminal activity.

B (30:54)

Right. Well, because really, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the mechanism is. It comes down to people, to human nature. Ugh, we're in trouble.

C (31:06)

I feel like there have been some flags up for several years and that people who are in elected positions have. Have ignored some of those red flags. And I think it's time they start listening to the people that they are serving.

B (31:20)

Yeah. Yeah. Dan, anything to add to this rather apocalyptic conversation?

D (31:26)

My thoughts?

C (31:27)

Yep.

B (31:30)

You're in agreeance.

D (31:32)

I don't have a whole lot to add.

A (31:33)

No.

D (31:34)

Do good in the world. I created a logo using AI the other day.

B (31:39)

Exactly. You know, one would hope we appeal to your better angels and use your power, whatever that is, for good, and don't be a fucking deviant asshole. God damn it.

C (31:53)

I will say I'll do a PSA at the end of this. If you're a parent or a babysitter or whomever and you come across something.

B (32:00)

Like this, like child porn, AI.

C (32:03)

Yes. My hope is if you can't tell the difference, report it to the police. At least it gets the person who's producing this or the person who gave it to you, however you came across, cross it. We want to pull that stuff off the Internet. We don't want it out there. It's. It's like when someone gets their car broken into and a gun gets stolen. I'm always like, why'd you leave your gun in your car? Why I wasn't with you or secured somewhere and, you know, mistakes happen, but now it's out there and you can't get it back. And so if you think about it, somebody who's producing a movie that's AI based, child pornography, child sex abuse material, what else are they into?

B (32:45)

I agree.

C (32:47)

Would I like to have my eyes on their hard drive and see if they are ever around kids? 100%. I want to know that. So there are ways without getting someone arrested that we can still get eyes on and track and do some checks, some community caretaking. If they have children and they're producing something like that, 100%, the police and child protective services need to have a conversation with that family about what's going on. We can still look. It doesn't mean that someone's going to get arrested. But anybody creating something like that is, to me, potentially very dangerous. I just don't understand why you would ever do it.

B (33:26)

And one would wonder, is that that person's way of skirting the system, whereas before that it was an AI do you know what I mean? Like, I'm sure if Paul Holz was in on this session today, that would say I'm going to bet my everything on the fact that it didn't start there and it doesn't stop there.

C (33:49)

I subscribe to the same school as you and Paul, Holes and Dan, et cetera. We're all on the same page.

B (33:55)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll be so curious to hear what our listeners have to say. I'm sure they'll let us know. You guys are awesome. Thanks so much for joining us here. We so appreciate your support. We'll see you next time. Okay. Small Town fam. That wraps it up. We hope you enjoyed this little peek at what goes on behind the Superfam paywall. If you want to join and hear our whole back catalog of over 250 bonus episodes, yes, my friends, you can head to smalltowndicks.com superfam and use the promo code free month to get your first month on us. Thank you so much for listening. You guys are the best. If you're celebrating Thanksgiving this week, I hope it's safe, happy and delicious. We will see you soon. Premium content is produced by Jessica Halstead and me, Yardley Smith and co produced by detectives Dan and Dave. Our senior editor is Soarinvasion and our editor is Christina Bracamontes. Logan Heftel is our production manager. Logan also composed our theme music. Our social media maven is Monica Scott. The real Nick Smitty and Eric Gaynor are our associate producers. And last but not least, our books are cooked and Cats wrangled by Ben Cornwell. Small town Dicks is an Audio 99 production. Small town superfam. Our team is forever grateful for your support.