#548 - Kill And Let Live - Horseshoe Lake, Arkansas

Summary

Small Town Murder - Episode #548: "Kill And Let Live - Horseshoe Lake, Arkansas"

Release Date: November 30, 2024
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman

---

Introduction

In Episode #548 of Small Town Murder, hosts James Pietragallo and Jimmie Whisman delve into the chilling case of a double murder that shook the small, rural community of Horseshoe Lake, Arkansas. Combining thorough research with their signature comedic flair, the hosts explore the intricate details of the crime, the ensuing investigation, and the profound impact on the tight-knit town.

---

Background of Horseshoe Lake

Horseshoe Lake, located in northeastern Arkansas, boasts a population of just 384 residents. Situated approximately 40 minutes from Memphis, the town is characterized by its serene oxbow lake and a predominantly agricultural landscape. The median household income stands at $48,827, significantly below the national average, and the median home price is an affordable $98,200. Horseshoe Lake serves as a summer recreation spot, attracting visitors from nearby Memphis who enjoy vacation cabins by the picturesque lake.

James Pietragallo at [07:34]:
"It's a really small town, way more people than animals, probably livestock outnumbered the residents."

---

The Snowden Family and Snowden House

Central to the story is the prominent Snowden family, particularly Sally McKay, the daughter of Colonel Robert Snowden. The family owns the historic Snowden House, a 6,000-square-foot mansion situated on the lake's eastern tip. Originally built as a family residence, the house was later converted into a bed and breakfast and wedding venue by Sally's daughter, Martha McKay.

Martha McKay in [16:25]:
"Growing up on Horseshoe Lake had been just wonderful. I felt like royalty with the big house and servants."

---

The Double Murder

Initial Incident

In August 1996, Lee Baker, a local musician and high school English teacher, experienced a devastating house fire at his residence near the Snowden House. Initially presumed accidental, the fire's extreme intensity suggested arson.

James Pietragallo at [27:40]:
"You smell burning flesh here. There's something here."

Discovery of the Bodies

On September 10, 1996, firefighters responded to the Baker residence and discovered both Lee Baker and his wife, Sally McKay, dead inside the burning house. Both individuals had been shot, leading investigators to question the fire's nature.

Jimmie Whisman at [23:53]:
"Inside the burning house, they found both Sally McKay and Lee Baker shot to death."

---

Investigation and Suspects

Initial Investigation

Authorities launched a comprehensive search for suspects, utilizing tracking dogs, helicopters, and helicopters. Despite extensive efforts, no immediate leads emerged, causing widespread fear in the community.

James Pietragallo at [36:05]:
"People are carrying huge guns, nobody's sleeping, everyone's scared."

Travis Lewis: The Prime Suspect

The investigation initially zeroed in on Edric Smith, a 20-year-old with a troubled past. However, focus shifted to his younger brother, Travis Sante Lewis, a 15-year-old high school student and the son of Joseph Lee Baker, Lee Baker's brother.

James Pietragallo at [39:00]:
"Travis Lewis, born in 1980, is Lee's younger brother and got arrested on October 5, 1996."

Travis was arrested after failing a polygraph test, where he admitted to participating in the burglary of Lee Baker’s home. However, he denied direct involvement in the murders, claiming an unknown friend committed the act.

Jimmie Whisman at [42:04]:
"I was there to rob the house. My friend killed them and tried to burn the house down."

Forensic evidence linked Travis to the crime scene, with his DNA found in Sally's car. Despite his initial denials, Travis pleaded guilty to two counts of first-degree murder and was sentenced to 28.5 years in prison, eligible for parole after approximately 20 years.

James Pietragallo at [45:07]:
"He'll be eligible for parole in a little over 20 years."

---

Martha McKay's Quest for Forgiveness

After the tragic murders, Martha McKay took over the Snowden House, transforming it into a successful bed and breakfast and wedding venue. Demonstrating remarkable forgiveness, she actively supported Travis Lewis's parole, believing in his innocence and seeking closure.

Martha McKay in [53:38]:
"I think he's just a kid who made a mistake. He didn't kill her."

Her compassionate stance faced skepticism within the community, but Martha maintained her belief in Travis's innocence, fostering a complex narrative of forgiveness amidst tragedy.

---

The Second Incident: Martha McKay's Murder

In March 2020, tragedy struck Horseshoe Lake once more. The Snowden House's silent alarm was triggered, leading deputies to respond swiftly. Upon arrival, they found Martha McKay brutally murdered, stabbed and bludgeoned multiple times. The suspect fled but was eventually found dead in the lake, identified as Travis Lewis.

Jimmie Whisman at [66:58]:
"They found him in the lake. He had cocaine and meth in his system."

Travis's death by drowning ended the hunt for the new suspect but left lingering questions about his true involvement.

James Pietragallo at [69:11]:
"He had cocaine and meth in his system. He got all methed up to go steal some shit."

---

Community Impact and Conclusion

The double murder and subsequent second tragedy deeply affected Horseshoe Lake, instilling fear and distrust within the community. Martha McKay's unwavering forgiveness contrasted sharply with the heinous acts, highlighting themes of redemption and the complexities of justice in a small town.

James Pietragallo at [73:18]:
"Maybe you can forgive, but maybe not. I don't know."

The episode underscores the fragility of small-town communities when faced with unimaginable loss and the enduring quest for truth and closure.

---

Notable Quotes

• James Pietragallo at [07:34]:
  "It's a really small town, way more people than animals, probably livestock outnumbered the residents."

• Martha McKay at [16:25]:
  "Growing up on Horseshoe Lake had been just wonderful. I felt like royalty with the big house and servants."

• Jimmie Whisman at [23:53]:
  "Inside the burning house, they found both Sally McKay and Lee Baker shot to death."

• Jimmie Whisman at [42:04]:
  "I was there to rob the house. My friend killed them and tried to burn the house down."

• Jimmie Whisman at [66:58]:
  "They found him in the lake. He had cocaine and meth in his system."

• James Pietragallo at [73:18]:
  "Maybe you can forgive, but maybe not. I don't know."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode #548 of Small Town Murder offers a gripping exploration of crime, forgiveness, and the enduring scars left on a small community. James and Jimmie's engaging storytelling, combined with their ability to balance serious content with humor, provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the tragic events in Horseshoe Lake, Arkansas.

---

For more gripping investigations and dark tales, subscribe to Small Town Murder on your favorite podcast platform and follow them on Instagram @smalltownmurder and Facebook @SmalltownPod.

Transcript

[James Petra Gallo]

Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi, mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment, like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one. The year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly sub. Right now I'm listening to Starkweather by Harry N. Maclean about the murderer Charles Starkweather. It's pretty good. I can recommend that to you as well. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com smalltownmurder and discover the years best waiting for you. Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Shutterfly. Reconnecting with the people in your life is so important, and sending a holiday card is a meaningful way to do that. But it can be hard to know where to start. Who knows? Shutterfly makes it easy to share custom cards that are perfectly you. I already know what I'm doing here. Yeah, yeah. Why not? We'll put the puppies on the cards this year. That's what we're doing with Shutterfly. Send everybody likes pictures of the dogs.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure do.

[James Petra Gallo]

Find the perfect holiday card for [e-mail] and start customizing today. Enjoy. 40% off your Shutterfly order with the promo code Small town. And send something meaningful this year. Get free shipping on qualified orders. See site for details.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And now back to the show.

[James Petra Gallo]

Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about Uncommon Goods. Spark something uncommon this holiday. With just the right gift from Uncommon Goods. The holiday season's busy and it's here. And Uncommon Goods makes it less stressful with incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list, all in one spot. When you shop at Uncommon Goods, what you're doing is supporting artists, small independent businesses. You know, people like us. Yeah, good people. Many of the handcrafted products are made in small batches, so shop before they sell out. Because these things sell out small pins. It's not a big giant manufacturing thing. And looking around on the site, I already found things. Good presents for this holiday. Absolutely. Gonna have some stuff made for people. I think. Let's make it personal here. It's perfect. And with every purchase, you make it Uncommon Goods. They give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. You even get to pick. They've donated more than $3 million to date. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com smalltownmurder that's uncommongoods.com SmallTownMurder for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon goods were all out of the ordinary.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petra Gallo]

Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yay. Choo choo.

[James Petra Gallo]

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petra Gallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'm Jimmy Wisman.

[James Petra Gallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today. All aboard the murder train pulling away from the station here we have an absolutely bonkers. This is one of those sometimes it's it takes a while to explain. Oh, it would be crazy. You could explain what happens in this case in two sentences to someone and they'd go, holy shit, for real. It's crazy. So we'll get into all that. Ten pounds of murder in a two pound bag. We'll get into it very quickly though. Before we do, shut up and give me murder.com. get all your merchandise and your tickets to live shows as well. Two live shows left on the calendar this year. That is Tarrytown, New York and Boston and they're both just about sold out. So get your tickets right now. New York, I mean we're talking, you know, a dozen tickets I think are left right this very moment because I just saw and then for Boston, there's not many more than that. So get your tickets now and get in there and be a part of the last two shows. It's been a great year of live shows.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure has.

[James Petra Gallo]

Man, that's been so much fun. Next, Phoenix. Thank you so much, Austin. Great. You guys are great crowds. We had a terrific time last weekend. So thank you for all that you do for us and thank you for what you will continue to do for us hopefully in the future. New dates for 2025 will be out next month. They'll be for sale.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's going to be great.

[James Petra Gallo]

Self some early Christmas presents and get those in there also. Patreon.com crime in sports. You want bonus material? We got bonus material.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh yes we do.

[James Petra Gallo]

Let's say you've listened to all the crime and sports episodes, our other podcasts, all of your stupid opinion episodes, all the small town murders. I need more. All you need is $5 a month or more. Whatever you want to put. You can get everything Hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before immediately upon subscription and new ones every other week. It's amazing. It's a great deal. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get it all on here. So this week we are going to get. For crime and sports. Oh, my goodness. It is one of the worst people ever marred shot. She owned the Reds for years. The Cincinnati Reds. Terrible person. Just an awful, awful person. We'll talk all about her shenanigans and how they eventually forced her to sell the team. And then for small town murder, we're going to talk about another terrible person. The Sarah Boone trial. The Suitcase killer, as we found out. I watched the entire trial and it's so much more than just that one video. It's she. There's so many more videos of her being awful, terrible man.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She's Ivan Reitman.

[James Petra Gallo]

We will talk. Oh, she's constantly, constantly feel. She's Scorsese. The Scorsese of mental illness. She is. We'll talk all about that. Patreon.com Crime in sports is where you get all of that and more so. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show, too. That said, I think it's time, everybody. Hey, let's do this. It's time to clear the lungs. What do you say? Arms to the sky and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

[Jimmy Wisman]

All right.

[James Petra Gallo]

Let's go on a trip, shall we?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Let's do that. Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

We're going to Arkansas. Oh, I love the reaction. Oh, how many people are like, we're going to Arkansas.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, finally.

[James Petra Gallo]

We're going to Horseshoe Lake, Arkansas.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petra Gallo]

Horseshoe Lake, it's in northeastern Arkansas. This is about 40 minutes outside of Memphis. So it's.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's a town, huh?

[James Petra Gallo]

It's, It's a tiny town, too, and there's a lot of little towns here. You think 40 minutes outside of Memphis is probably like suburbs or something? No, no, no. This is rural as rural gets here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's about Memphis on the Tennessee side and then West Memphis on the Arkansas side.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yes. As you might know from the murders that took place there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Was that where Martin Luther King was shot, when West Memphis.

[James Petra Gallo]

West Memphis is where the West Memphis three should happen.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yes. I think Martin Luther King was there, too.

[James Petra Gallo]

I thought that was in Memphis, like Tennessee, though. I didn't think. I didn't know it was in Arkansas.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I think it was west Memphis.

[James Petra Gallo]

I don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I might be wrong.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. I don't know the hell he's doing in Arkansas.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'm not.

[James Petra Gallo]

Tennessee's right there. Really? This is 2 hours and 45 minutes to Pleasant Grove, Arkansas. Our last Arkansas episode which was called Kill Them All. That guy was wild. He went on like a crazy killing spree. Wouldn't let his wife have postage stamps. He was a nutcase. This is in Crittenden County.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Petra Gallo]

And population of this town? 384. Very small people. People. Way more animals. I'm sure. Probably if you put in the goats and cows.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They've got to be outnumbered by livestock at that point.

[James Petra Gallo]

I would think so. Here. Median income here. Not a lot. Median household income 48,827 which is over 20,000 less than the national average. And then the median home price here even lower. $98,200.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh my God.

[James Petra Gallo]

So this is a really small.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Incredibly affordable.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. And the lake, it's a beautiful lake. And they. There's a lot of like lots available if you want to build a house on the lake. A little bit of history here. It was named after Horseshoe Lake. Which is the lake it's on.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

Which is an oxbow lake on the eastern tip of which of the town. It's situated in the Mississippi river floodplain at the eastern tip of Horseshoe Lake. And the lake is a huge summer recreation spot. People come from Memphis to, you know, they have little vacation cabins here. It's like if you live in New York what Lake George is to New York people to like Hudson Valley people. It's kind of what this is. When they first found this place and started coming here. Mosquito borne diseases would just eat people alive. It was just disgusting. Yeah. Swamps and everything else. But soon after the War of 1812 they surveyed the land and gave it to soldiers who fought in the war as payment. They're like, you survived getting shot at here. See if you can survive mosquito borne illnesses in this the worst land.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We have the worst piece of Arkansas.

[James Petra Gallo]

Jesus Christ, man. So in 1825 Crittenden county was carved out from another county and they made some townships and then they ended up making levees and shit so it wouldn't be so swampy and sure. So they make it more inhabitable. Basically 20th century hunters and lumbermen got here and then they dammed it and it raised the water level by over 6ft. Made it a proper lake that you could boat on and shit like that. That way they could float timber directly to the Mississippi river from here. Floods of 1927 and 1937 completely messed up the entire lake. Area not great. So then they dug a canal to make sure that. So there was drainage for flooding. In the future reviews of this town, there are none. But this is for the town right next door that's five minutes away that most of the people live in and where these people go for groceries and shit. And that is Hughes, Arkansas. Five stars. Love it here. I've lived here my whole life and never experienced any other place better. The people are interesting, the scenery is perfect, and there's always something to do.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I believe it.

[James Petra Gallo]

Interesting is a good way to put it because that can mean anything. That could literally mean anything at all. Two stars. I grew up in Hughes and it was a great place to live. But around 1990, it started changing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What happened?

[James Petra Gallo]

It was 35 years ago. Today we have less than 1,000 people in town with one store. When the state closed the school, everybody moved.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, wow.

[James Petra Gallo]

People just left, not only kids to populate it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So they closed it.

[James Petra Gallo]

People usually don't leave a nice lake area unless there's something wrong with it. You know what I mean? Usually those things grow.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Communities around lakes tend to expand.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, it's so weird. Three stars. It's an overall good experience. The neighborhood is safe and quiet, but there is no school or job opportunities. Everything's at least 20 miles away, such as grocery stores and hospitals.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petra Gallo]

It's tough. It's a tough place to live if you're living like that. I mean, that's.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, you have to be retired 20 minutes.

[James Petra Gallo]

You have to be retired and not have any health problems. That's.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Or have any fucking danger at your house.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's what I mean. No. Hell, just be sitting on your porch is all you do. And look out at the lake.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Lazy boy with a seatbelt.

[James Petra Gallo]

Oh my God. A couple of things to do here. And they both have to do with wings. So it's all wing. It's all wing related activities here. First of all, on the outskirts of Memphis, There is the 23rd annual World Championship Hot Wing contest and festival.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, that kind of wing.

[James Petra Gallo]

That kind of wing, yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, because of the. Well, no, I don't know why. Why do they do that there?

[James Petra Gallo]

They have all sorts of. I don't know, it's a barbecue place. I don't know why they do wings.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean, there's Nashville hot chicken, but that's on the entire opposite end.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's not a wing too. That's no.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, chicken. So they're gonna have a wing eating contest and all that kind of thing. They will have bands Including Elevation Memphis featuring the Tina Turner Review. Fantastic bunch of people who aren't Tina Turner singing Tina Turner songs. A whole lot of people there. Uriah Mitchell and Lena beach will be performing. Sure. Terry quote Harmonica Bean will be performing. I wonder what he plays then Sean Bad Apple. Sean Apple. Sean Bad Apple.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

Delta Joe Sanders will be there. Delta Joe, I think that is Neon Dion's cousin, Delta Joe. And then also what is this Memphis funk And horns. And then Earl the Pearl. I don't know if that's Monroe.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'm sure it's not.

[James Petra Gallo]

It's going to show up finger rolling in there. I don't know what's going on here. And then locally there is the inaugural Crittenden County Hot Wing Festival. And cook off.

[Jimmy Wisman]

May as well.

[James Petra Gallo]

Like we can co op what they're doing up there. Hot wing eating contest, live Entertainment. There'll be DJs, sure. Don't tell you who, but DJs. And then there will be a cakewalk. I don't know what that is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, I've heard of them.

[James Petra Gallo]

Do they walk on cake, I assume.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I think it's a walk. And at the end you get a.

[James Petra Gallo]

Cake, you get is it hot or hot coals involved. There's gotta be no.

[Jimmy Wisman]

There's no broken glass.

[James Petra Gallo]

There's no walk on cake. Oh, it's a walk. And then they give you cake slices afterwards.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know if you get a cake or a cake slice.

[James Petra Gallo]

There's also cornhole. So there's that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Walk the cake and get cornhole.

[James Petra Gallo]

Get yourself some cornhole. Also Area 51 will be playing there. Yeah, what do they play? Well, I'll tell you what they play. They bring you a high energy show playing classics from Sticks, Journey, Van Halen, Boston and more. You get it. You just name those bands, you get what they're playing. 76 to 85 fucking rock. That's what they're playing. Members of Area 51 have had the honor of playing with artists like Jimmy Jameson, spelled like Jimi Hendrix, Mickey Thomas, Steve Cropper, Charlie Hun and Larry Raspberry. Oh, if they played with Larry Raspberry, I'm there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They played with all of those guys. Yeah, I feel like we could too.

[James Petra Gallo]

So I don't know who those people are. So I know we're going to get lots of comments with people you don't know. Larry Raspberry. Holy shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know Billy Blueberry either.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, picture of them at the fucking, you know, Ronnie Strawberry show last week. Larry Rats. Let's talk about Some murder. What do you say?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Please do.

[James Petra Gallo]

Let's get away from this crazy shit and talk about something about Terry. Terry less murderous. Yeah. Jesus Christ. God.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fuck.

[James Petra Gallo]

I want Connie Cantaloupe to perform really bad. So let's talk about some murder. Let's start in 1996, shall we? Okay, 1996. Let's talk about a lady who was an older lady at this point. She's gonna be about 75 years old in 1996. Sally McKay. McKay. McKay. Now, she is the daughter. She's a very prominent citizen in this area.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, really?

[James Petra Gallo]

So much so that she doesn't live here that much. That's how prominent she is. She's too prominent. Too prominent to live here all the time. She is the daughter of Grace Snowden, her mother and her father is Colonel Robert Snowden. Oh, a very big deal and a very rich man. And so, yeah, that's this family. He was a prominent farmer and a member of one of the county's oldest families. Like, they go back to hardcore Civil War shit. Like, one of the uncles was like, you know, like one of Stonewall Jackson's main guys and all that kind of shit. So Snowden here, the father, Colonel Bob, once bought the popular Peabody Hotel in Memphis and then sold it like three hours later to somebody else. He middle money.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Made money on the job.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. Probably made some cash for no work, for taking it to one guy and handing it to another. Just middled it somebody.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He heard tell of a guy that needed a hotel, so he bought it.

[James Petra Gallo]

Well, shit, I'll buy it. I got it. And now it's a little more than you were going to pay for it before. So, yeah, that's this deal here. So that's where she comes from. Sally. Very prominent people. Sally's gonna have a couple of daughters, Katie and Martha. Martha's born in 1957. I don't know when Katie is born here, but now Martha talks about later on. There's an interview with her in 2015 with the daughter Martha called Lady of the Lake. Okay.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Martha is the lady.

[James Petra Gallo]

Martha. By 2015, Martha was the lady of the Lake. And she told Memphis magazine that growing up on Horseshoe Lake had been just wonderful. She said, I felt like I was royalty with the big house and servants. Yeah, you were lit. You were living in another era. You were living in 100 years before you era is what you were living in.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And you were living in an era. That sounds incredible.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, but she was like the big house. We. We had a man that sang Zippity doo da to us like she's co op Disney movies.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Now she's living the end of Splash Mountain.

[James Petra Gallo]

Exactly. Yeah. That's where I came from. Everything was fresh from the garden, fresh eggs and all. And we even had a peach orchard. We got to swim every day. And it was just ideal. That's her childhood. So she really had quite the childhood. Sally ended up the mother. Now when Martha's a kid, Sally ended up marrying. I don't know what happened to Colonel Bob, but I don't know if he died or whatever happened here. But Sally ended up marrying a professional actor from New york named David McKay. That's how they're the McKay kids. That's why she's Martha McKay. So after a few years of living in Horseshoe, they moved away to San Francisco and other places on the west coast, taking the children with them. I'm sorry. The Colonel was Sally's father. I'm sorry. So, yeah, that's. I don't know what happened to Martha's dad here. I guess so anyway, they moved to San Francisco and other places on the west coast. You know, just moving around to where.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Actors live in Hollywood dreams. Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

And this is what Martha said. Mother would bring us back for the summer and leave us here. Mother?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

How many people, you know call their mom mother?

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, no.

[James Petra Gallo]

I've never known anyone wealthy enough to call their mom mother. And they don't say like mother would bring us here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. That's crazy.

[James Petra Gallo]

And just leave us here. It was just wonderful. I felt like royalty. And then she said both my grandparents just love having a house full of kids. And they showed it. So mom would just drop the kids off with the grandparents at the lake in the summer and then go back to touring the west coast with her actor boyfriend. What a great life. Not bad. Now Martha's going to end up moving to the west coast as well.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petra Gallo]

Because she kind of lives out there. So she just spends summers at Horseshoe Lake.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Petra Gallo]

1994. This house, it's called the Snowden House, we'll talk about. Now the Snowden House was, you know, Colonel Roberts house and. But later on they turn it into a big bed and breakfast type place.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Petra Gallo]

It's a wedding venue. It's a one of those type of places.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's a New England's full of that shit.

[James Petra Gallo]

Tons of those. Yeah. It's like a 6,000 square foot house on the lake and it's called the Snowden House is what they call it. And the family lives in another house like you know, 100ft away. Like they have a bunch of houses on the property that they live in. And there's the Snowden House. In 1994, the Snowden House actually was a location for the. The movie the Client. The John Grisham book that was turned into a movie.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Well, the Client was a little kid, right?

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. I want to say with Julia Robertson or something.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't. I don't know.

[James Petra Gallo]

I think might be thinking Aaron Brockovich. I don't know. I remember the movie, but it was a kid. There was a kid involved in that movie.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, the kid was the client.

[James Petra Gallo]

Right, Exactly.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Something's wr wrong with him or he's.

[James Petra Gallo]

A victim of something as some kind of murder. Murder mystery. I don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's a book.

[James Petra Gallo]

This is not a mystery. That what happens here now. 1996 comes around. Sally, Martha's mom. The. The mother, as she was. Yeah. Sally is also. For some reason she's a certified public accountant.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Petra Gallo]

And also a part time antiques dealer farting around those, those.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean you gotta have. You gotta have hobbies.

[James Petra Gallo]

I guess so, yeah. She's a member of obviously this big family. She would spend much of her time at the lake managing the property. Snow. The Snowden house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petra Gallo]

So that's what she was doing by the 90s. Also around here she has relatives. Her nephew. This is Martha's cousin, Sally's nephew. It's like. It's. It's one of. One of Sally's sibling sons. Sally. Sibling son. Say that five times fast.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Too much.

[James Petra Gallo]

This is Joseph Lee. He goes by Baker. Lee Baker. He's born in 1943. He's a musician and apparently a in Memphis in the blues scene. He's a very well known guy back then. Yeah, yeah. He's a high school teacher also. So he's not making any money. But he's very well known for his skills. Here he played.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Baker is a great name for fucking music.

[James Petra Gallo]

Lee Baker, that sounds like a Memphisy name. He played backup for the blues guy, Furry Lewis, he played for him. Furry F U R R Y like.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Like Huey Lewis, but he's Furry Lewis.

[James Petra Gallo]

But he's Furry Lewis and was around well before Huey, I think.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petra Gallo]

He's also playing with his own band, Lee Baker and the Agitators. Okay, the Agitators.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We make problems.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, he was a key member of the Furry Lewis band here from the 1960s. And also in Moloch and Mud Boy. Also bands as Mollich, Malloc, M O L O C H Mollock, Malach Maloch also Mud Boy and the Neutrons.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's good.

[James Petra Gallo]

And he performed on albums by big star Alex Chilton and Jim Dickinson. I don't know any of these people.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know any of those either.

[James Petra Gallo]

I don't know many, like local Memphis blues people, I guess. I don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's gotta be what that is, right?

[James Petra Gallo]

It has to be. Yeah. In that scene, they're big people, but we don't know them. So In August of 1996, a big fire breaks out at his house where he lives with his wife and three.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Children on the Snowden property.

[James Petra Gallo]

On the snow. It's 100 yards away from the Snowden, or 100ft away. It's very close by. But it's a blaze of a fire. I mean, dammit guts this house. It really screws it up. He had lived there with his wife Carol and their three sons for 30 years or 20 years. And a year earlier the house had been burglarized. Oh, somebody broke in, stole a bunch of shit. But now it's just been burned to the ground. And it's arson too. Somebody did it on purpose. By the time the volunteer firefighters got to the house, it was too late to save it. It was so hot that it melted the paint on one of the fire trucks.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's how hot the fire it was going.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Showed up to fight it.

[James Petra Gallo]

Truck full. Just water everywhere. There's a lot of water between that and the truck. Fucking paint melted.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Melted. Wow.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. The community, they only had three fire trucks and one of them has a side that is definitely. You could use a paint job. So that's August of 1996. So there's an arsonist loose or something going on here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

September 10, 1996, 10:30am I guess Lee Baker was over at Sally's house because his house was burned to the fucking ground.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's gone. Yeah. Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

But there was just those two in the house. And a fire breaks out in the house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

In that house now too.

[James Petra Gallo]

That house too. It's about 10:30, bug afoot, I would say so. So they come in, we'll talk about how they put it out and everything, but they come in and put it out and rush inside to see if people are in there and they find both Sally McKay and Lee Baker shot to death. Inside the house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, no.

[James Petra Gallo]

Inside of a burning house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

So they don't think those wounds are from the fire, obviously. So they're a little concerned here. So they're like, holy shit, this is fucking crazy. And also the Car is missing. Sally's car is missing, but she's in the house, shot to death in a burned house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She didn't take it.

[James Petra Gallo]

So they're very confused. Then at 11:15am so about 45 minutes after the first alert for the fire happens, a neighbor who is traveling a gravel road about a mile and a half west of the house finds her car and it is over. It's wrecked and overturned. It's on its roof, and it looks like it bashed into something before that happened. And it's. It's still running a mile and a half away. Mile and a half to the right.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fuel pump.

[James Petra Gallo]

Not bad, right? Still going. Still going down. So it's a guy named Bobby Couples of Hughes is who ended up finding the bright red late model Toyota Camry wrecked. And I was on its side, not on its thing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Still very still.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's not bad. That's pretty good. So Couples, he drove to Bonds Marine to see if the boat shop's part owner might know who this car belongs to. So I found a red car over. It's overturned. You know anybody around here that drives a red car? And this guy said that, oh, I do know who it belongs to. I think that's Sally McKay's car. So these two jumped in the car and headed for McKay's house. Because the couples guy knew Sally McKay too. They all did. Everybody knows her around there. She's the lady who owns Snowden House. They all know her.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And there's only a few hundred people here. That guy knows everybody.

[James Petra Gallo]

Well, they own tons of property. So half the people in this town rent their house from Sally McKay. So they all know her. She's either a landlord, an employer. She employs tons of people to do stuff around these properties. So as soon as they saw the car, the guy that from the Marine shop, he knew it was, quote, Ms. Sally, as the residents called her because she's the rich lady who gives them jobs. So they all call her Ms. Sally. This guy said, I had never seen her down this road. And so down here it doesn't. I don't know why she'd be down here. Now, this guy is also a. Happens to be a volunteer fireman and a member of the local rescue squad. So he ends up at the fire anyway.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Petra Gallo]

So he ends up going there. He said when he gets there, Lee's truck was backed up next to the back door with the tailgate open.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's weird.

[James Petra Gallo]

Like somebody was putting it up to load shit in it. Yeah, or loading. This guy said, I ran around the house and put my hand on the window and I could feel the heat. So then they drove back to the boat repair shop to have someone call the local fire department. And that's how the fire got found originally. Yeah. So the trucks arrived. The two men were using. At the time when the trucks arrived, those two guys were using a winch to pull the GMC Sierra that belonged to Lee Baker away from the house. And they tore off the screen door and tried to go in. They said much of the fire was limited to the living room and the kitchen area of the home. One volunteer firefighter, Beth Baldwin, who runs the Horseshoe Lake Grocery and Cafe, she was the one who sounded the alarm and got the other nine volunteer firefighters out there to it. And she said, when we put the hoses down, we didn't see any flames. When we opened the door, that's when the flames broke out. It was a matter of minutes. And we had it out, though.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, we see backdraft.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. So the fire was needing some oxygen. Right. That's why. That's what. That's what kind of saved the house from completely, you know, being a huge, blazing fire. Yeah. So they said they had it out very quickly. So they were happy about that. They said, but you could smell that they got there too late. More than that, you could smell burning flesh.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, shit.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's what you could smell. That's the problem.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No.

[James Petra Gallo]

And when they open the door and put everything out, they go, you can smell burning flesh here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

There's a person here.

[James Petra Gallo]

There's something here. Yeah. Or a big dog or something. So they said, the. One of the firefighters said, I was hoping for the best, that you're going to save someone. The bodies were just burned so bad.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, no.

[James Petra Gallo]

So someone started this fire where the bodies were on purpose to try to burn these bodies up. So that's. That's bad. Others, they laid the bodies on the carport and covered them up when they took them out. Someone, one of the firefighters who's lived and known. Lived here his whole life and known Sally for 25 years, said quite quote, I don't care if you're black or white or whatever. If you was in trouble, if you needed help and you went to Miss Sally, you could have got it. Lee was like that, too. He was the same way. In all my years, I've never seen anything like it. You don't want to forget it, but then again, you don't want to remember it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Ms. Sally would help anybody, would help.

[James Petra Gallo]

Anybody, and she did. Apparently, so many people worked for her, she had everybody on the payroll because if someone needed a job and they need a little extra income, she would hire up, she'd find a job for them on her, in her staff or whatever. So, yeah. Now Baker's wife, this poor lady, because her own house had been completely destroyed a month ago, they said they lost everything they owned in that fire.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, shit.

[James Petra Gallo]

She said that, quote, she doesn't even have a picture of her husband. I got nothing. She said she doesn't even have a picture of her dead husband.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petra Gallo]

This is pre digital, so this is physical pictures. They've all been burned and they didn't have any chance to take new ones. And now he's dead. So she said, I literally don't even have a picture of my husband. Imagine, just she lost everything in a month.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Hope she never gets fucking Alzheimer's, man. All she's got are pictures in her head of him.

[James Petra Gallo]

I mean, shit, even if you're fine after 20 years, you start to forget.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You forget.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, you forget what someone looks like. You know what I mean? We usually don't because we have pictures.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But, yeah, makes it easier.

[James Petra Gallo]

If you didn't see your mother for 20 years and never saw a picture of her and then you had a sketch artist drawer, I bet it wouldn't look exactly like her. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Probably not.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, your memory will fuck things up.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Christmas is coming up, James. Did you know that?

[James Petra Gallo]

It is coming up. That's very important. You know what people should do around Christmas? Oh, you need shopping money. And the thing is, sometimes you're gonna find money in places you never thought, like, where, like subscriptions that you're paying for, that you don't need to pay for because you don't even know you're paying for them, but yet they're coming out of your account every month.

[Jimmy Wisman]

How can you fix that?

[James Petra Gallo]

Rocket Money is what helped me out. That's the thing. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow that savings. Rocket Money will they negotiate lower bills for you. They can do that by up to 20%. All you have to do is submit a picture of your bill. Rocket Money, they take care of the rest. They'll deal with customer service. You don't need to be on hold for two hours. Rocket Money will take care of it. It's wonderful. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to Rocketmoney.com Small Townmurder that's Rocketmoney.com SmallTownmurder Rocketmoney.com SmallTownmurde now back to the show. Hey, everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about the most safe sponsor there is. SimpliSafe.

[Jimmy Wisman]

SimpliSafe.com S I M P L isafe.com that is correct.

[James Petra Gallo]

Jimmy. Let's get these people safe. If you've ever worried about the safety of your home and family, there's no better time to act. Right now you can get. This is amazing, 60% off a new Simplisafe security system. It's their best deal of the year. Simplisafe is the home security that we trust. We've been using it for years. Seven, eight years now. I think we've been using almost eight years. And I love, we love Simplisafe. So easy to install. Honestly, it's the best. And the price of it, it's fantastic. You need it. Trust us here. Simplisafe is offering our listeners exclusive early access to their Black Friday sale this week. Only you can get 60% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. This is their best offer of the year. Head to SimpliSafe.com Small that's SimpliSafe.com Small S I M P LisaFe.com Small there's no safe like simply safe.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petra Gallo]

So obviously they're going to search. Somebody did this, obviously, because at first they thought, oh, no, these two people died in this fire. And then they noticed they had gunshot wounds all over them. And they said, okay, maybe not. Now we got to search. So now it's, now it's frantic because now a bad accident is one thing, but a fucking guy murdering prominent people and setting their houses on fire seems like a more, you know, murdering pressing matter.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

So, yeah, well, for the area people that everybody likes and likely been trying.

[Jimmy Wisman]

For a minute because a month ago a house burned down here.

[James Petra Gallo]

Somebody likes to take shit gun. That house was robbed too. So they, they think that maybe this is a connection to that. But escalation, they're saying that they don't know of any connection at this point. They said that they don't know if the deaths were related to a fire about a month ago. And they said, you know, because no one was injured in that fire. So they're not sure. So they search the surrounding fields. They use people on horseback. They have tracking dogs from the state prison nearby. They get a helicopter from Memphis to come in to help them and they're searching everywhere for any sign of another person and the search is called off. About 3 o'clock though. They don't find anybody. And they don't think they're going to find anybody.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh no.

[James Petra Gallo]

I think whoever it has got away. So this is obviously the biggest thing that's happened around here in, you know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

In a long time since they. Since they dammed up the lake. This is the biggest thing. This is the biggest thing since the flood of 37 raspberries been here. Oh, Jesus. We had Sally Strawberry here two months ago. So they had state police and county deputies turned Horseshoe Lakes fire volunteer fire department into a mate. Into an investigation center. Yeah, they just spread everything out on the floor. They're chasing down possible leads. They're. Yeah, a state trooper in a polygraph examiner was there to interview people as well. Yeah, they had like a. Just a parade of people going in and out, getting fingerprinted, polygraphed, basically anyone that lived around there. So they said that they're. They have no suspects at this point. But one of the people, people they question is a 20 year old named Edric Smith. E D R I C K Smith, he's 20 years old. He's got a bit of a checkered past. He's got some arrests and never murdered anybody or burned a house down. But he lives in the area and he's got a bit of a past.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's fucked up a few times.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, so he's of the right, you know, ilk of people you want to talk to. And he said about this. I'm there at my house and I'm with my daughter and I see four or five cars pull up on the side. They came to get his ass. They were like, who has a criminal record within 20 miles of this fucking house? And then they bum rushed everybody. He said, they got my thumbprint, they got my palm print and they took a piece of hair and they gave me a polygraph test. Okay, so thumb and palm tells you that that's. They're looking to match a thumb and a palm.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, they've got a fingerprint somewhere.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, that tells me a lot. He said they were aggressive. They said, we think it's you. We think it's you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh my.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, he said, it's fucking not me. Um, no, he said, and he said that they were searching for whoever, quote, killed the lady. And they told him, somebody's going to go down for this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They have to. This lady's too important here.

[James Petra Gallo]

I mean. Yeah. In this town, if we don't catch this person, no one will ever sleep at night. So we got to catch this person. The family theory and the cops are kind of also thinking it possibly is that it might have been more than one person involved.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. To control both of them and burn a house, you've got to be able. Yeah, it's got to be.

[James Petra Gallo]

I mean, you could just shoot them. So I don't know why they thought. But they said that this is a family relative. I think this is one of Lee's friends said it took more than one person to kill him. They would have had to. They would have put up a struggle. I know that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petra Gallo]

So they're thinking it would be more. The town freaks out. This is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

How would you not.

[James Petra Gallo]

This is like, holy shit. Because now they think someone's not only killing people, burning houses down. This is a terrifying thing. So residents are carrying. Everyone's walking around carrying huge guns with them, talking to their neighbors. Just with giant, like a huge hunting.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Rifle, 12 gauge on your shoulder.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yep. They. They said they. Nobody got any sleep. One of the residents locally said, it's just scary. A lot of people didn't get much sleep last night when the sun went down. There weren't hardly any vehicles on the streets. Yeah, People are just sitting on their porches with their shotgun waiting.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Went and got a holster for my.36. A hip holster.

[James Petra Gallo]

A hip. I needed it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Hip holster for a Remington.

[James Petra Gallo]

You're just looking out in the dark, somebody lights up their cigarette, you're firing at them. Fire. Pow. It's you. I see a flame, you're dead. So, yeah, the people who. From the grocery there. The grocery and cafe said, I've never saw so many people with fire firearms. The peaceful life is what I moved out here for. I got tired of Memphis. We're out here to get away from this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Memphis is where that's at.

[James Petra Gallo]

Murder and fucking armed murdered people. So weeks go by with no arrest. What, as you can imagine, this is not setting. Settling well with anybody who lives here. Weeks go by. In early October, they have their finally put a reward out. It's a $10,000 reward for information leading to the arrest. And that's what they're doing. They said that investigators with the sheriff's department said they have worked diligently in gathering evidence in this matter and Obviously they have who got. At this point, now we have $10,000. Since the rest of it didn't work, they said in the event that two or more people provide substantial information leading to an arrest, then the reward fund would be prorated and paid in percentages to the individual supplying in information.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So you better hurry and bring the information you got or, hey, consequences of 20%.

[James Petra Gallo]

It's a race against time here. That's what I mean. Someone else is going to come first and then what happens?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, and with the society arming up like fucking deadpool, who's to say they don't shoot the guy before we get information?

[James Petra Gallo]

Well, or each other think, who knows? It's, I mean, somebody, like I said, somebody lights a goddamn cool out in the yard and he's getting blown away because he's got a fucking lighter on him. So enter Travis Sante Lewis. S A N T A Y as Sante. That's his middle name, Travis Lewis. He's born in 1980. He is 15 years old. He's also Eldrick Smith's younger brother as well.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petra Gallo]

The guy who got aggressively brought in there and said, we think it's you. It's this guy's younger brother who's 15, Travis. The police come and arrest him on October 5, 1996. They pull up to his house and pull him out of his house. He's a 10th grade. He's a sophomore at Hughes High School.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's a baby.

[James Petra Gallo]

He's a kid. He's also a student of Lee Baker in high school. Lee Baker's his English teacher. Teacher? I believe so. Okay, that's one thing. He's a 10th grader and a student in English from Lee Baker. And also he is a he. His grandparents rent their home from Sally McKay. Okay, so in this town, everybody knows everybody. Yeah, he's a student of one.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Both of them.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, And a tenant of another, basically. So that's what's going on here. So the investigation leads them to Travis, who lives on one of the properties on the fucking estate. He lives on the lake with these people in a rented house. So Travis and Lee Baker's two sons were good friends from school. They all knew each other. And he denied knowing anything about the murders when they brought him into the. Into the police station. He even passed a polygraph test.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's good.

[James Petra Gallo]

At 15 too. He passed a polygraph test at 15.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is not like he's allowing him.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, an arch criminal where, you know. Well, yeah, he's been in the system for so long of Course he can pass a polygraph. Yeah. He's not Ted Bundy. You know what I mean? So the police learned that young Travis here was suspended from school on the day of the murders.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petra Gallo]

So they were like, okay, he was off free day. Yeah. Because otherwise, you know, if he's at school, it's a pretty good alibi. Yeah, but he wasn't. So they said, come on in for a second polygraph test. And then he failed that polygraph.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, no.

[James Petra Gallo]

Which I'm not. Listen, if you brought me in for one, I know I didn't do it. And I passed. And they're like, we still don't believe you. We're going to bring you in again. I might be more nervous now because, like, if I passed once and they're making me do it again, they really think I did this. And they might be trying to make sure I did it. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Or they know that they asked me questions that were not incriminating, and now they've got some that are.

[James Petra Gallo]

They asked, did you kill Sally and Lee? And he said, no. And they said, okay, that's not a lie.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

So that's. You know, that's a. That's the first thing they fucking asked him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay. But perhaps he's convinced himself that he didn't kill them. Or maybe he didn't kill them. Maybe somebody else did. So he can say that and not be. Who knows?

[James Petra Gallo]

But now he. Now he failed. Now, after some questioning for. They get him in the box for a few hours here. He admitted, okay, I was the one who burgled Lee Baker's home last month or the one that burned down. But he said, I didn't kill anybody and I didn't burn that house down. A friend of mine did. And then he also said that I didn't. I was at the house where Sally and Lee was, but I didn't do anything. My friend killed them, not me.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petra Gallo]

I was there to rob the house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay, But.

[James Petra Gallo]

And they. They came and found us robbing the house, so my friend killed them and tried to burn the house down.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay, we are on a great path now.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's. Yeah. Now we're. Now we're feeling like we're going somewhere.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

So they said, okay, they. He makes a statement, so that confirms his presence at the scene.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not good.

[James Petra Gallo]

Not good. And later on, they find his hair and DNA inside of the car that was overturned. Sally's car. Because he's 15 and not a great driver, so he can't drive. He wrecked Himself.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yep, wrecking it.

[James Petra Gallo]

So then they also recovered his fingerprints from the driver's side door as well. No other fingerprints or DNA from this mystery friend, by the way. No hair, fingerprints, or DNA. Meanwhile, his DNA, hair and fingerprints are all on it. So whoever's in that car is leaving some physical marker. And this guy, it's only him. So they suspect, based on what he said, saying that Sally and Lee surprised them and his friend killed them. They think, well, he was probably robbing the house. Sally and Lee came home, surprised him, uh. Oh, he shot them and tried to cover it up, basically. So. And also the neighbors noticed the fire so fast that it didn't get to really burn any of the evidence or anything away. And they could tell very easily that they'd been shot. So I mean, that they would have been burned to char to not be able to find.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They'd have burned to dust and they'd.

[James Petra Gallo]

Still find the bullets under them that were in their bodies that are now burned out of them. They'd still find bullets there and wonder where they came from.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That guy that killed and burned his entire family in Scottsdale, that's still on the run.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They knew what happened. Oh God, those babies throats were slit. And that house was an inferno.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yep, that's. There's very. Yeah, the.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Hard to get rid of that evidence.

[James Petra Gallo]

The forensic science and in the forensic anthropology they can do and all that kind of shit is so advanced.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's so hard to get rid of it.

[James Petra Gallo]

It's hard, man. Yeah, it's really hard. You have to burn them to. You have to incinerate them to dust. And even then you better hope there's no poison because they'll get it from the fucking.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They'll find it from the.

[James Petra Gallo]

Find a bone chunk and they'll track it. Yeah. So then they get a dive team from Shelby County, Tennessee to assist the Arkansas State Police and the sheriff's departments of the county to search for the gun they believe was used in the killing. Because they don't have that yet.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petra Gallo]

So they are doing this. They figure it's in the lake, probably because why not? And they can't find the fucking gun anywhere in the lake. They drag the lake, they really. Everything. Yeah, you name it, they're trying. If divers are out there looking for this gun, they can't find it. So a cousin of Travis here said family members are shocked that he's been charged with this crime and that they think he's a murderer. The one family member said his grandparents are really tore up When I saw his mother, she was taking it pretty bad. Yeah. That your 15 year old's being charged with a double murder. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Crazy.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's weird. So they're gonna end up within the next year and a half here when he is going to end up pleading guilty to this, by the way.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Petra Gallo]

Pleads guilty to two counts of first degree murder.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What about his friend?

[James Petra Gallo]

No friend. No friend. He'll. He'll never, he'll always say there was a friend, but he won't ever say who was.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He won't say who it was.

[James Petra Gallo]

And there's no evidence, there's no evidence of the friend, but he'll never confess to this murder. He, he always says he didn't do this murder, but he still pleads guilty. He doesn't. Well, the death penalty was on the table here. They were saying even though he was a minor. So I don't know how that would have worked because I don't know. I can't remember exactly when that law was passed. We just did a thing about it. But also the family, and led by Martha the most is very anti. They feel bad for this kid, Martha especially. He's 15 years old. The family's known his family for a long time. They rent to the grandparents. He's a student of Lee's and they don't understand this whole thing. And Martha believes him that he wasn't the killer also. Really? Absolutely. So they kind of plead for leniency, especially Martha. Martha pleads for leniency for the kid and so he says another man killed the two people and the families are okay with the guilty plea. The prosecutor said the families felt it would be traumatic to go through a trial. It was a reasonable disposition.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So just accepting it.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, they're okay with it. And they think it's such a young kid too. I mean, what are we going to do here? Try to really screw him to the wall. He's going to get a lot of years anyway. So the judge here, David Burnett, accepts the plea deal and sentences him to you sophomore may fuck off. 28 and a half years for murder and an additional five years for burglary and theft charges. But that will run concurrently with the murder and he will be eligible for parole in a little over 20 years. Oh yeah, so there's that. In his 30s. So Martha ends up coming back from California to run the house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

Now it's her responsibility to run the house. It's a business now. So she does and in 19 and she ends up buying the house from her family because it went into a trust with a bunch of people or whatever. In addition to this, it's a thousand acres of lakefront property that they own with the Snowden house, which is the big mansion, as the centerpiece. Her longtime friend said she loved that house. And when her mother was killed in it, she said, Martha was devastated like we all were. And, you know, she wanted to get the house back up. So she does and runs it as a bed and breakfast and a wedding venue. So much. So Memphis magazine does a huge long spread honor called lady of the Lake, and it's kind of a luxury bed and breakfast now. And she says my grandparents were world class travelers and they had seen an antebellum plantation home in Louisiana. And that's supposedly what my grandmother plant pattern this home after. Yes. She said, oh boy, doesn't that remind you of slavery?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Let's go ahead and fucking the nice times of yesteryear.

[James Petra Gallo]

Let's build a fucking slavery tribute home, shall we? So they did. So two. Yeah, they talk in this article. They say two centuries ago, Horseshoe Lake was nothing more than a tight bend in the Mississippi River. The New Madrid earthquakes of the 1811 and 1812 changed all that. I didn't know anything about that. The upheaval shifted the main channel of the river eastward, leaving an oxbow lake that became a haven for creatures that swam, flew, slithered, and crawled. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it just left a little, like, tributary with nothing connected, but not connected to anything. So it's a lake now. So that's kind of cool here. And there's also four smaller lakes and ponds. They said over the years a few families settled in the area, and eventually there was cotton plantations here too, there. But the Snowden family, they were kind of really. They were the ones that really were buying up this land, as we know. They ended up with a thousand acres of it. The original plan was to renovate the home. This is what Martha wanted to do when she came, took it back over and renovate it and make it her private residence and then open up the house and grounds for wedding receptions and parties and special events. So she recruited. I don't know where she got her money from, but she recruited some restoration expert and an interior designer and all these people.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's gotta be the actor, right?

[James Petra Gallo]

I don't know. Well, the whole family seems to have old money, so I don't know what's going on. Yeah, seems to be they have early 1800s German oil lamps suspended from elaborate chains in the ceiling. All this type of shit. They have the Bathrooms got new Calcutta gold marble countertops. Jesus Christ. They added heated flooring. She said the kitchen was a major challenge because it had been used as a restaurant and the walls were just covered in gook. Gook, not goop, gook scunge, as we found out from a live show that would be.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

So we just took them down and exposed the bare pine walls. The yellowed asbestos ceiling tile got the same treatment. She retained the original metal Geneva cabinets from the 40s and added zinc countertops. So they just really spruced it up. She said I needed to bring the home up to the 21st century. And she also put in air conditioning. She said otherwise we had all these window units. She said these giant box air conditioners were hanging out of every window. The kitchen, the side porches, everywhere. It was horrible. And you can imagine the expense. And in the basement, I found a gas guzzler of a furnace. It was costing $1,000 a month to heat the place.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Golly.

[James Petra Gallo]

Jesus. And that's in the 80s and, you know, our late 90s, so.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And that. And that's 6,000 square feet. It's a giant.

[James Petra Gallo]

It's a big house. Yeah. And it's hot in the summer, man. That's a hot area in the summer. And then cold in the winter, so that's rough. So they said it's a three story, 6,000 square foot home. They described as stately and elegant with luxurious architectural details that include a grand marble floored entrance with sweeping staircase, antique crystal chandelier, and a Carrera marble fireplace. All of which are heirlooms from one of the original family homes in Memphis.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Carrera marble in the 90s that just became real popular now.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, that's in the mainstream, but really rich up across shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

Knew a lot of shit that we never heard of until, you know, until, like fake rich people came along now. Well, until, yeah, Instagram people and shit like that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Until people with mortgages that could just put off paying for that, you know.

[James Petra Gallo]

30 years from now, I figured I'd second mortgage my house to put some Carrera marble in instead. All right, that's a good idea.

[Jimmy Wisman]

God, I love a heloc.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's wonderful. Jesus Christ. So they said that from the website here, from the Snowden House website. They said it's perhaps the lake's most impressive property, functioning in recent years as a bed and breakfast and as Memphis's premier wedding venue. Oh, this is a place. If you live in Memphis and you want to go have like a country, like a Wedding in this big grand thing. You come here, you do it. It's only 40 minutes away. Now back to Travis Lewis. He's in prison while Martha's doing all this. And he is, he wants parole once 20 years comes up.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, I'd like to go home late.

[James Petra Gallo]

2016, I think is when he's up for parole. And so there is some want for it. And Martha supports this parole fully? Yeah, she supports the parole. A first cousin of Martha, Dottie said that Martha befriended him while he was in prison. She used to go visit Travis in prison, send him letters. They were like pen pals and everything. And she said that she was just, she thought he was a decent guy and a young guy who whatever, for whatever reason made a mistake. And she doesn't think he's even the murderer. She thinks he's just a kid who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and ruined his life basically. So she feels bad for him and.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She'S probably got a small connection to him because what she's missing, he's the last person that saw them alive.

[James Petra Gallo]

That too. You know something, maybe, maybe she, he can give a detail, but she doesn't think he killed him. She doesn't think he killed her.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So even if he didn't kill him, he was there and he was the last person to see him, to her knowledge.

[James Petra Gallo]

So Martha, by the way, Martha's also a Buddhist and very much. She has a very live and let live, or very kill and let live in this case attitude. Real killing, let live attitude. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

You know, that goes.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Very progressive.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, she's a Buddhist and that makes sense, I guess. All right, everybody, today we're talking about Dr. Squatch. Now you might know this brand from their natural cold processed bar soaps which are all great. They're amazing. If you haven't done it, check those out. But now they've got the same real soap formula available in body wash form. And it is good, I'm telling you right now. They're made with natural ingredients derived from, from coconuts and plants to provide all day skin hydration. Available in four unique and manly scents. Coconut Castaway, Pine Tar, Wood Barrel Bourbon and Fresh Falls. Dermatologists tested and clinically proven to provide 24 hour moisturization. So you can still smell tough while taking care of your. Maybe your soft side, you know what I mean? Dr. Squatch products are made for men. But we're telling you, these soaps, no matter what and in what form, are loved by all. So you really can't go wrong here, everybody. My favorite, by the way is the Fresh Falls. I tried that and I dig it. So what are you waiting for? Go pick one up at your favorite store [e-mail] today. DrSquatch Body Wash for men who prefer natural. Hey everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Quince. Fall is here, winter's almost here. Time to flip that wardrobe over. You know what I'm saying? You're going to trade in the flip flops. You're going to need some sweaters now. Time to get some flannel, get some jacket, get some flannel, some long pants. And I'm excited about that anywhere. I love it. So we're going to, we're going to upgrade to some nice stuff like a cozy cashmere sweater, maybe a leather jacket. That's actually what I bought from Quints. I found a very cool like distressed leather jacket that's really cool. Looks like it's like old schooly kind of, but like new, new design. I really like it a lot. It's awesome. And you're gonna like Quint's too. Quince offers affordable, high quality essentials for any wardrobe. That includes seasonal must haves. Like a Mongolian cashmere sweater from $60. That's a bargain. Comfortable pants for any occasion, like Jimmy's linen pants that he loves here. Upgrade your wardrobe with pieces made to last with quince. Go to quince.comsmalltownmurder for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com smalltownmurder to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comsmalltownmurder now back to the show. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Lumi. Everyone's had times where you're unsure of your smell. You're like, what's going on? I don't know about this. You know what I mean? When you're walking around and you're just like, did I, did I thank goodness.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I have this sweater.

[James Petra Gallo]

Am I? Yeah. Am I? Hopefully this is holding this in whatever I think I have here. So that's why we're very thankful for Lumi Whole Body Deodorant. So none of us, you, us, everybody has to worry about BO Ever again. And unlike certain other deodorants out there, Lumi's powered by mandelic acid to control odor in A new way Lumi delivers an outrageous 72 hour odor control everywhere from pits to privates and beyond. Whole body, Whole body, that's everything. They include it all. Lumi's starter pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid stick deodorant cream tube deodorant, two free products of your choice like a mini body wash and deodorant wipes and free shipping as a special offer for listeners. New customers get 15% off all Lumi products with exclusive code here. And if you combine the 15% off with the already discounted starter pack, that equals over 40% off their starter pack. Use the code smalltownmurder for 15% off your first purchase at lumideoderant.com that's code smalltownmurder at L U M E D E O D O R a n t.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Also, Lumi's men's brand Mando is perfect for the holidays. Yeah, it is. Give the man in your life the gift of aluminum free whole body deodorant with cologne quality scents just like Lumi. It's safe to use anywhere. Check out [e-mail] and get 15% off with code Small town murder. Smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lumi.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petra Gallo]

So she has a, everyone says a real big heart and something about her. Everybody, everybody loves her because she's like that. She's open to anybody and she's not judgmental. And people said she left a really good impression on people. She always had that gift to make people feel comfortable.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's really the goal of what everybody, everybody's goal should be is that because you're just, you're literally trying to make the world a better place regardless of people's mistakes. And we should probably all be so, so kind.

[James Petra Gallo]

And now. And her friends said as a big time Buddhist, she believed in forgiveness, which I think what religion isn't. Forgiveness is a big thing. Is there any religion there where they're like, the whole point, the whole point is to smite your enemies. That's the point. There's no religion.

[Jimmy Wisman]

The whole point is to sin and.

[James Petra Gallo]

Just die, sin and die. And if anyone fucks you over, you fuck them back harder. That's a lost book of the Bible I don't know anything about.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, somebody sins against you, you sin harder.

[James Petra Gallo]

You sin harder. You show that you want to see what a sin is. I'll fuck show you what A sin is. And then you. You lay them to waste.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. For sinus.

[James Petra Gallo]

She actually. She actually, you know, takes all this forgiveness to heart.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

And forgives this guy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She loves it.

[James Petra Gallo]

A family friend said, named Frank Bird drove her to the state penitentiary to see him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

And said, I told her I didn't think it was a good idea, but she didn't answer me. She just. Straight ahead. They said that you really, you know, shouldn't hang out with this guy and shit like that. So 2018 comes around, and she is one of the main petitioners for his parole.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petra Gallo]

Being the daughter of the victim of the, you know, main victim here and all that. They take that seriously.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure, sure.

[James Petra Gallo]

And the fact that he was 15 when it happened also. And she gives a sob story for him also. Then they're like, well, fuck, if the family can forgive him, I guess we'll let him out.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We have as the state. Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

So they parole him. She not only gets him paroled, she offers him a room in the bed and breakfast and gives him a job as a groundskeeper.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Petra Gallo]

She moves him in and gives him a fucking job. Like she's trying to put him back on his feet, which is amazing. And he was like, well, shit, yeah. I mean, there's not a lot of job offers for, you know. What experience do you have? Well, let's see. I've been in prison since I was 15, so not much.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's tough guy.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. I'm pretty good at lighting a fire. Outside of that, I don't really have much. So they said the friends were still shocked that she would bring him in that close. They were like, you know, what the fuck? At one point, her family friend said we had said to her, just stay away from him. It's a bad juju type of thing. But she wouldn't do it. She had to do it. And she wrote letters to him in prison and wrote letters to the parole board for years saying, this guy's going to come up for parole soon. Look at him. This guy. Yeah. She's like a scout. Like a parole scout. Yeah, yeah. This guy, he's. He's tearing it up in the minors. You really want to see this guy?

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's got a great left.

[James Petra Gallo]

Oh, my God, it's amazing. So they said, the family said, we were contacted every time he came up for parole. None of us would okay it except for her. And she would not only okay it, she was all for it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What is going on with this? That is so Buddhist.

[James Petra Gallo]

She wants to make a difference in Somebody's life here. She felt bad. He was so young, and she honestly believed that someone else did it because that's what he said. And she believed him wholeheartedly. And the sheriff said, I think it was her mission to find out what happened to her mother and to find out if someone else was involved and who that was. So they think that might have also been a reason.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Petra Gallo]

Maybe if he can get. She can get this guy to trust her, he'll tell her what really happened, and then she get some closure and maybe find the person who really killed her mother also. So Martha hires him, kind of quietly gives him a job working on the property because his mother, Gladys, is a housekeeper there. For years, Martha hired his mother, Gladys, as a housekeeper because she had a stigma on her because her son is a murderer. So she felt bad. She hired her. So she said, okay. Now he's a groundskeeper, and he works alongside of his mother, who's a housekeeper. So that's interesting. Then out of nowhere, because this is in 2018, in 2020, early 2020, Gladys comes to Martha and tells this about her own son. She says, just stay away from Travis because he's going back to his old ways. His old ways? What, when he was 14. Yeah. What, he's doing biology homework. What are you talking about? What old ways?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Trying to learn the Pythagorean theorem.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. Now he's fucking. He's watching Doug and shit. Like, he's just doing, like, all sorts of 90s weird teen shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Like, you know, going back to his own ways. I caught him with a Mad magazine.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. It was weird. Jerking off to a playboy from 92. It was strange stuff.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't like it.

[James Petra Gallo]

He's a Pamela Anderson Penthouse. He had. I was like, this is weird.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Makes me feel awkward. In 2015.

[James Petra Gallo]

It's very strange. He's all 39 years old now. It's odd. So she ends up firing him. Not because of what the mother said either. She still kept him on, but apparently at one point, she sold a chandelier for $10,000 cash.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petra Gallo]

Which she kept in the house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

Okay. Now, Travis stole the $10,000. He was there when she came home with the money and knew about it. And then the money vanished, like, that night, and he was the only one who had access to it, so she had to fire him over that. She's like, okay, I gave you. You killed my mother, for Christ's sake. Like, I'm pretty forgiving. Take a mile for a. Holy shit. Yeah, this is. Kill me once, Shame on me. You know what I mean? But shame on you. So he's. Yeah, she said. So they said Travis happened to be there that day. This is Martha's sister. Then the money vanished. She fired him after the money disappeared. So he's gone from the house. That's early 2020. March 25, 2020. As if the world didn't have enough fucking problems at this point.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, that was a bad time.

[James Petra Gallo]

Bad time. Here the Snowden house is located, by the way. This is right next to where her mother was murdered in the other house. Yeah, this is the Snowden house. So her mom's murder house is right there too.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And it's still standing because it didn't burn down.

[James Petra Gallo]

It didn't burn down all the way. Well, she's in the regular Snowden house here. And the police get a notification from a silent alarm at that house. She has a. An alarm next to her phone that's in her phone. And like the house thing, that is a direct alarm to the police that something's going on. So they get. They put. It's a silent alarm. Doesn't set off a big.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Nobody knows that it's happening. Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

Except for the cops. So the cops zoom to the house and they run to the house, and when they open up the back door. Oh, here's a quote from the sheriff. Deputies today responded to an alarm at the historical Snowden house in Horseshoe Lake. Two deputies arrived, found an open back door, and upon a clearing in the house, located a possible suspect who jumped from an upstairs window down to the lawn and ran to a vehicle and drove across the yard. He then got. The suspect then got stuck in the yard in the vehicle because it's muddy and marshy. Quote, the suspect then jumped from the car and ran and jumped into the lake. He was observed going under the water and never came back up. What, the suspect jumped in the lake and drowned himself or just couldn't swim and made a bad decision or found.

[Jimmy Wisman]

A pipe and went somewhere else.

[James Petra Gallo]

No, this is not Super Mario PC. The murderer, whoever this is, isn't Luigi. He didn't go find it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He went in the lake and drowned yourself.

[James Petra Gallo]

Apparently you can if you can't swim. I don't know if the guy couldn't swim or what. He never came back up. So rescue teams from the Sheriff's department and Game and Fish, they're using sonar equipment to try to recover this person. Anyway, we'll get to that in a second. As those cops are chasing this guy, more cops show up and they. They find, quote, the body of a female deceased inside the house. They found Martha inside the house. Murder. I mean, brutally murdered. Stabbed and bludgeoned. Stabbed, stabbed many, many times and bludgeoned with a hammer.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Destroyed.

[James Petra Gallo]

Destroyed. She's at the top of the stairs. This is. There was an obvious thing going on here that this person did not know that an alarm was pressed at the top of the stairs near a bag filled with her belongings along with a bloody knife.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petra Gallo]

So this person dropped the shit. They were dragging out the body because she is wrapped in blankets as well.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petra Gallo]

So he's dragging. Whoever this is, is dragging her and a bag of her shit and her knife and then heard cops are here and went, oh, shit. And just ran and jumped out the closest window. That's what happened. So, yeah, there's a. There's a cloth bag on top of a nearby chair complaining containing several valuables and a bloody kitchen knife as well, because there was a utility light knife on the floor next to her. So they said it was determined that the intent was to steal these items. However, it was not determined whether the intentions were to burglarize the home and if she was killed in the process of this intention of process, or if this intent, if the intention was to murder her and then they just opted to steal the items. So is this a murder because of a burglary or a burglary because of a murder? While I'm here, I might as well take some shit which begot.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What?

[James Petra Gallo]

Which. Yeah, exactly. So they end up dragging the lake using sonar, finding the body of the perpetrator.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Get the fuck out of here.

[James Petra Gallo]

They found him in the lake. They pull him out of the lake. It's Travis Lewis.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Of course it is.

[James Petra Gallo]

It's fucking true. They were like, holy shit. The cops didn't think that. I mean, we just told the story, but the cops are like, are you fucking kidding me? This asshole again? Yeah, you fucking asshole. They pull him out, they do a tox screen on him too. Turns out he had cocaine and methamphetamine in his system. So he got all methed up to go steal some shit and she was there and he killed her. Didn't realize she set off a silent alarm. Thought he had time to start robbing the house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What the fuck did he think was going to happen?

[James Petra Gallo]

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if he tried to go in the lake and hide behind a. I don't know what his plan was. Clearly this was not. He didn't think whatever his dismount was in his head.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

It didn't include two cops showing up in the middle of what he was doing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Did he think there was going to be, like, a straw under there that.

[James Petra Gallo]

He could say, like a scuba. I think he thought there was pipes like you did. I think we're dealing with a.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Where's the pipe?

[James Petra Gallo]

Where's the pipe? There's a pipe. I want to go where there's coins. Send me somewhere.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I think he was fucking like Yogi Bear that he was just going to breathe through a reed and let the bees pass.

[James Petra Gallo]

I'm not sure what happened.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What the fuck is he doing?

[James Petra Gallo]

That's what the fuck he did. What, did he go to the bottom.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And just, like, grab ahold of some roots and try to wait it out?

[James Petra Gallo]

I don't know. I was trying to hide under there. I don't know if maybe he couldn't swim.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Maybe that too, but if you grew.

[James Petra Gallo]

Up on a fucking lake, you'd think you'd know how to swim.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You'd think so, but maybe you've been.

[James Petra Gallo]

In prison for 20 years and then he's been here. You think you'd have figured it out? I don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that like Viking?

[James Petra Gallo]

I don't know. Like we said, someone had to have thrown him in that lake and went airs that way. Motherfucker. He was born in 1980. He's like our age. They would have done the same thing to him. They did to us. So I feel like he'd know how to swim at this point.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know what happened to this kid, but he is just.

[James Petra Gallo]

He's fucked up bad.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fucking seed, man.

[James Petra Gallo]

At first you're like, oh, must just be so. Something must have happened. Who knows? He's 15 now. It's like, you're just evil. You're fucking evil.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You're a monster.

[James Petra Gallo]

You're a fucking monster. And you always were. And it came out early in you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Apparently he was, like, drawn back to the site to do it again and.

[James Petra Gallo]

That to the same people. It's fucking insane. And Martha trying to be nice. Talk about no good deed goes unpunished. Jesus Christ. This is fucking horrible. This is an example of never do anything nice for anyone, ever.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Forgiveness for smiveness. Fuck him.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, he wouldn't. He wouldn't hurt me. I've helped him. I've done this. My mom is. His mom's employed by me. Nope.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fuck him.

[James Petra Gallo]

Fuck him. Fuck him. Keep him in prison. Nope.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So he's.

[James Petra Gallo]

I get it, 15 years old and because here's the thing, and it's very similar. My great grandmother, as we know, was murdered. As I've said a lot, she was murdered. And the woman who did it was a crackhead who was there trying to steal shit, who was 20 years old at the time it happened, was very young, had a young child, like all this shit. And she comes up for parole all the time and always gets denied. And I think about it in my head, I'm like, okay, that was almost 35 years ago. So there's a lot of difference between 20 and 55. And I have the same thoughts. I'm like, isn't it about time? Like, I feel like fuck em. But then I read this and I go, maybe fuck him. That's what I'm saying. See what I'm saying? What am I supposed to do here?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Go with God, honey. I don't give a shit.

[James Petra Gallo]

I don't know anymore.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't want anything to do with you, nor your fucking bullshit.

[James Petra Gallo]

What I'm saying is I get where Martha's thinking because sure, I've had these thoughts too, where I'm like, Jesus Christ, I barely remember when I was 20 years old. If someone said, you're still being gonna be held for outside of, you know, kids, you're still gonna be held for accidents you had when you were 20 or mistakes you made when you were 20. Boy, I would be like, wow, I don't barely remember those things happening.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. So I think, and that lady's child has filed taxes so many times by.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's. Oh God. Yeah, they're fucking 35 years old.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

I mean, that's crazy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's fucked. But I don't know. Fuck them.

[James Petra Gallo]

That's what I mean. Maybe it's fuck them. I don't know. That's what I usually say. I'm usually a fucking person. But I'm trying to be nice and I don't know, you try to.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You try to have some fucking decorum and some Simpson decency.

[James Petra Gallo]

Some human decency. Yeah, fuck them. Maybe it's fuck them. I don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You're gonna come back and finish the family.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah, that's what I mean. What. We let this lady out, she comes and kills. Who now? I don't know, me, I don't know. They're probably not.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But I can't alone.

[James Petra Gallo]

Don't go to Florida very often, but you never know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't want to do this alone. A real quiet show.

[James Petra Gallo]

Jimmy's like, I'm not doing research or writing shit down. Or reading to you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Welcome to Jimmy Waits for Another Friend.

[James Petra Gallo]

Dot com. Jimmy's show is called Please read to me. That's what it's called. Somebody tell me a story on this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Episode of Jimmy Waits for a Friend.

[James Petra Gallo]

Still waiting. Hey, guys. Something bad must have happened to somebody and I'd love to tell you about it, but. Still waiting.

[Jimmy Wisman]

See you next week. Maybe next time.

[James Petra Gallo]

Jesus Christ. So neighbors said they were shocked to have another murder happen here because it's so. Outside of these three murders, nothing's ever happened here. It's just Travis.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's crazy. Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

One said we locked our doors and remained inside and prayed for the best. How about. I don't think. I think it's one guy and he's drowning the lake. I think we're good now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

The neighbor said it's just a scary thing that's happened. We're praying for the family. The sheriff said, I met her a few times about Martha and she was a nice, interesting lady. Which means some whack job from California. That's what that means.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why did he say that?

[James Petra Gallo]

I don't know. Some fucking hippie. I don't know what the hell she was doing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's already living. Fuck him. What a dick.

[James Petra Gallo]

She really restored that place back to its original beauty. It's such a tragedy. And while mind boggling that a 15 year old would commit these murders and then, you know, allegedly come back and do something so horrible again. I think we can take the allegedly off.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He served time for it, man.

[James Petra Gallo]

He ran away from the corpse, jumped out a window and drowned himself. I'm pretty sure he killed her too. I don't think there's anybody else involved.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And he was convicted in the other one. So.

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Pledge guilty pleasure. Yeah.

[James Petra Gallo]

You know, you can take the alleged off once someone pleads guilty number one.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't think he's going to sue you, man.

[James Petra Gallo]

No. And I think he'd have a pretty good case if he did. If his family decided to sue us for saying he murdered Martha. I think we're gonna rock your shit in court.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I think you're gonna win.

[James Petra Gallo]

You got nothing. So no one else was there and he fled from then there and then drowned himself.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Drowned himself. I've never drowned myself in fear of anybody else.

[James Petra Gallo]

Never. Never. So the sister said, we're all in disbelief. We're all just in disbelief. Martha didn't deserve to be killed. She didn't deserve anything that happened to her. No.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petra Gallo]

She was. She was being as kind and as forgiving.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I can't believe how kind she is.

[James Petra Gallo]

I mean, if you're, you know, if you're a religious person, that's pretty Christ, like, quote unquote would be to say to embrace the person that did this to your family and try to find something good in them.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But Buddha would high five the shit out of that lady.

[James Petra Gallo]

Well, yeah, her corpse. Anyway, that's the problem. Buddha be like, oh, shit, another one. I have. I've high five so many corpses. Maybe I should reconsider my philosophies on this forgiveness shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They're the reincarnation people, right?

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. No, no, that's. That's Hindu is reincarnation, damn it. Yeah. Buddhism, I think, is reincarnation too. I think they have a system.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's like be like water people, right?

[James Petra Gallo]

Yeah. There's a different thing where like, like, I think Hindu is like, you literally, like, are. But there's karma. So karma would be. You'd come back as something better or something worse because Buddhism does that too. Buddhism has. Yeah, if you're. If you're shitty, then you come back as a shittier thing and then you can work your way up to a person again.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, you better be a good pig.

[James Petra Gallo]

Apparently, that's like. That's the ultimate reward of karma is to be a person, which. To hate yourself and have just fucking be unsure and eat your mind alive. That's the best. I think a dog is the best. See, my way, my dogs live. Holy shit. You don't know that you're a dog.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, you're just loving it.

[James Petra Gallo]

You don't even know you're going to die because you're a fucking dog. That's what's great. You have no idea. It's going to happen someday. That's fucking awesome. That's what I want to be.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Some of them got to know right at the end there.

[James Petra Gallo]

My dogs have no idea that anything bad could happen. They think life is just a fucking.

[Jimmy Wisman]

My Vaughn's got arthritis in his back. He knows.

[James Petra Gallo]

And he's still so thrilled, though.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's so happy.

[James Petra Gallo]

He's so happy I came over. He was jumping. My dog's an.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He wiggles. He wiggles that arthritis all over the.

[James Petra Gallo]

Frankie had fucking cancer all over. She had open leg wound. You came over, she's like, oh, God, jumping all over you. She doesn't care.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She doesn't give a shit.

[James Petra Gallo]

She didn't care.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So maybe it is a dog.

[James Petra Gallo]

Anyway. I think a dog is the best. A dog if you're owned by someone who likes dogs, I guess.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I hope Travis comes back as a tumor on a dog.

[James Petra Gallo]

There you go. That gets cut out and thrown away in the biohazard bag. So there you go, everybody. That is Horseshoe Lake, Arkansas. And that's a. That's a fucking crazy story.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You gotta live fuck them. Now.

[James Petra Gallo]

You have to, I guess. I don't know. Well, if somebody put it this way, you don't have to live. Fuck them. But if someone kills your mother, maybe fuck that person. Fuck him. Fuck that one. It kills your mother. That's bad, I guess. That guy's no good outside of that. Maybe you can forgive, but maybe not. I don't fucking know. If you do forgive, you may be murdered by a future drowning victim.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Watch out.

[James Petra Gallo]

That said, hope you enjoyed that show. If you please. Tell everybody about the show. Tell the world, tell your friends, tell your family, tell social media. Get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars. It helps a ton. Doesn't matter what you say. Say the age you learned to swim and how you did it, that'd be great. Just say I six years old, took a class and we'll know what you're talking about. 4 dad threw me in Great said airs up. Enjoy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

When I was two.

[James Petra Gallo]

Let's see. Whatever it takes. Do that also. Follow us on social media. We are all town murder on Instagram, at Smalltown Pod on Facebook. You can also definitely head to Shut up and give me murder.com tickets for sale. Very few tickets for sale.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh boy.

[James Petra Gallo]

For the final two shows of the year we have Tarrytown, New York which is just about sold out. If you want those, get them immediately. And then Boston is the next night. That is the last show of the year. Right about that time. Tickets for next year are going on sale. Oh, and they're coming new slate of dates in all new cities because we're doing kind of rotating cities every other year. So a whole new slate of cities, places you've wanted us to come, then we're going to be there. We cannot wait for that. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all of that and more. Also you certainly a listen to our other two shows, Crime in sports and your stupid opinions. But then you should get Patreon because you're going to want more. Patreon.com crime and sports is where you get all of the bonus material for crime in sports and small town murder. Anybody $5 a month or above. Hundreds of bonus episodes, right? So he could choke an elephant with those things. You could so many, you could kill multiple generations of a family with it. Just tons of them, tons of those. And then new ones every other week. One Crime in sports, One Small town Murder. This week crime in sports we're gonna talk about Marge Schott, probably the worst owner in the history of sports.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petra Gallo]

Mean, nasty, awful. Somehow one World Series. I don't understand how that happened. Then we're gonna talk about for small town murder, the Sarah Boone trial, which I watched and followed. And she's a lady who zipped her boyfriend up inside a suitcase and videoed it and then acted like that was fine and she wasn't going to be arrested for it. The trial's crazy. She testified. It's insane. Her text messages are nuts. We'll talk all about that shit and more. That is patreon.com crime in sports. Keep coming back each week and seeing us. You want to follow us on social media, shut up and get me. Murder.com has drop down menus. Lead you wherever the fuck you want to go. So that said, until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Bye.

[James Petra Gallo]

If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[C]

You don't believe in ghosts. I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada as we journey through terrifying and bone chilling stories of the unexplained search for haunted Canada on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.