#553 - Dreaming Of Murder - Oak Park, Illinois

Summary

Small Town Murder - Episode #553: "Dreaming Of Murder - Oak Park, Illinois"

Release Date: December 19, 2024
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman

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Introduction to the Case

In this gripping episode of Small Town Murder, comedians James Pietragallo and Jimmie Whisman delve deep into the mysterious and convoluted murder case of Karen Ann Phillips in Oak Park, Illinois. Combining thorough research with their signature comedic flair, the hosts unravel the intricate details surrounding this tragic event.

Setting the Scene: Oak Park, Illinois

Oak Park, a Chicago suburb with a population of approximately 54,100, is characterized by its mix of demographics and a median household income well above the national average. Despite its seemingly idyllic suburban facade, the town harbors peculiar behaviors and an above-average property crime rate, setting the backdrop for the unsettling murder that shook the community.

James Pietragallo [08:10]: "Oak Park is a lovely suburb, only 20 minutes to the lakefront from downtown. Great food, schools, and an incredible library system."

Jimmie Whisman [10:35]: "There isn't a lot to do except go downtown, Chicago, or smoke weed somewhere."

The Victim: Karen Ann Phillips

Karen Ann Phillips, a 24-year-old nursing student, lived alone in a studio apartment at 324 North Austin. On October 3, 1980, after attending classes and participating in yoga studies at the Kriya Yoga Temple in Chicago, Karen returned home safely, as confirmed by a late-night call to a friend.

Discovery of the Murder

The following day, October 4, Karen failed to show up for a planned shopping trip. Concerned, her husband contacted the fire department, leading to the harrowing discovery of Karen's lifeless body at approximately 10:30 PM. She was found face down, naked except for a nightgown tightly wrapped around her neck, with multiple wounds indicating severe trauma.

James Pietragallo [33:18]: "She is totally naked except for a nightgown wrapped around her neck. Her head is covered with blood."

Steve's Premonitory Dream

Enter Steve, a resident of Oak Park and a Bible student operating a halfway house. Steve reported having a vivid dream on the night of Karen's murder, detailing an assault that closely mirrored the actual crime. His dream included specific elements such as the use of a tire iron and the victim's passive acceptance of her fate through OMMUDRAS, a set of hand symbols in yoga philosophy.

Jimmie Whisman [25:05]: "He can recommend that to you as well."

James Pietragallo [36:03]: "That's their way of prayer, I guess would be the best way to put it."

Interrogation and Suspicion

Steve's detailed account of his dream raised suspicion among law enforcement. During his interrogation, Steve reiterated the dream's specifics, some of which eerily matched the evidence found at the crime scene. Although some aspects of his testimony lacked direct correlation, the coincidence of details like the tire iron and the victim's demeanor contributed to his initial conviction.

Jimmie Whisman [86:02]: "You're amazing."

James Pietragallo [88:01]: "But that was wrong. How he knew everything was just crazy."

Trial and Conviction

Despite questionable evidence and overlapping but not identical details between Steve's dream and the actual murder, Steve Lynn Scott was convicted of murder, rape, and other charges. His defense hinged on the implausibility of a dream accurately foreseeing such specific criminal acts, while the prosecution emphasized the uncanny precision of his premonitory visions.

Jimmie Whisman [121:14]: "He's our guy."

James Pietragallo [124:28]: "He's a real dreamer."

Appeals and Overturning Conviction

Steve's conviction faced multiple appeals due to prosecutorial misconduct, including the mishandling of physical evidence and overreliance on the credibility of a dream as evidence. Despite initial exoneration, higher courts reinstated the conviction. However, emerging scientific doubts, particularly concerning blood type analysis and hair evidence, eventually led to Steve's final exoneration in 1992.

James Pietragallo [168:48]: "Then they said that carriage quote, Karen was raped by a non-secretor and the defendant is a non-secretor."

Aftermath and Exoneration

Following his exoneration, Steve rebuilt his life, becoming an ophthalmologist and an advocate for wrongful convictions. His case highlights significant flaws in the judicial process, particularly the dangers of relying on non-conclusive evidence and the influence of personal testimonies that verge on the supernatural.

Jimmie Whisman [175:18]: "He looks like he did a goddamn thing."

James Pietragallo [176:05]: "That is Oak Park, Illinois, and one of the most fucked up cases ever."

Insights and Discussions

The episode sheds light on the intersection of psychology, law enforcement, and the human tendency to seek patterns—even where none exist. The use of premonitory dreams as evidence poses profound ethical and legal questions about the standards of proof required for conviction.

James Pietragallo [166:18]: "He should be held responsible for his actions, whether or not it was conscious."

Jimmie Whisman [167:27]: "Steve is under arrest now."

Conclusion

Small Town Murder masterfully intertwines a tragic true crime story with humor, offering listeners both entertainment and a critical examination of the justice system. The Karen Ann Phillips case serves as a poignant reminder of the need for rigorous evidence standards and the perils of allowing personal beliefs to overshadow objective analysis.

James Pietragallo [180:05]: "You're incred. You're psychic, bro."

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Notable Quotes:

• James Pietragallo [05:47]: "It's a comedy show... none of that stuff here."

• Jimmie Whisman [06:39]: "We're gonna give you the best story we can give you."

• James Pietragallo [36:22]: "He just couldn't see that she was being beaten and raped."

• James Pietragallo [91:30]: "If you were, like, in a situation talking with certain people that possibly you hadn't talked with before..."

• Jimmie Whisman [131:14]: "You're our guy."

• James Pietragallo [175:28]: "That is Oak Park, Illinois, and one of the most fucked up cases ever."

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Final Thoughts: For those intrigued by the complexities of wrongful convictions and the eerie overlap between dreams and reality, this episode of Small Town Murder offers a compelling narrative enriched with humor and critical perspectives. Whether a true crime enthusiast or a casual listener, this episode provides a thought-provoking exploration of justice, psychology, and the human condition.

Transcript

[James Petragallo]

Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi, mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment, like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one. The year's best fiction like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly sub of James. Right now I'm listening to Starkweather by Harry N. McLean about the murderer Charles Starkweather. It's pretty good. I can recommend that to you as well. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com smalltownmurder and discover the years best waiting for you. Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. Shutterfly allows you to create truly personal and meaningful gifts for your family and friends with custom photo gifs. You just upload your photos from your phone or social media or whatever to the Shutterfly app to start creating GIFs in minutes. You get photos off your phone and into a photo book. Like I have an idea for. I got a brother who's got some kids and they, they tend to like those kids. So I'm gonna put some stuff. Yeah, I got some ornaments I think I'm gonna make for them. I think that's the way to do it here for them and I think that's gonna be a good gift. Explore gifts like blankets, mugs, photos, books and [e-mail] all easy to customize in minutes with your favorite photos. Enjoy 40% off your Shutterfly order with the code Small Town and make something meaningful this year. Get free shipping on qualified orders. See site for more details.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petragallo]

Have you ever found the house of your dreams only to learn it has dark secrets? Netflix new series no good deed follows three families vying to buy a 1920s Spanish style villa that they think will solve their problems. But as the sellers discover, sometimes the home of your dreams can be a total nightmare. No Good Deed, starring Lisa Kudrow and Ray Romano, is now playing only on Netflix. This week in Oak Park, Illinois, a vicious murder in a woman's apartment leaves detectives without many clues until a man comes forward saying he had a very detailed dream about the attack. A little too detailed. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm Jimmy Wissman.

[James Petragallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another insane edition of Small Town Murder. And I'll tell you, it's so wild today. This is crazy. You're going to hear this episode and the whys are going to take over of why would this person do that? Then why would this happen from? It's just ridiculous. This whole, whole case is crazy, wild stuff. Before we get to that, Definitely head to shutupandgivemerder.com as you're listening to this right now. If you're not listening the second it comes out on early release, tour dates for 2025 might be out right now. So check out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They could be out, you know, for sure.

[James Petragallo]

Get in there. And if you're listening early, early, like right when it comes out on early release. Still a few tickets left for Boston. New York is sold out and Boston's almost there so should be sold out when you get there. So that is excellent. Thank you guys for doing that. Thank you for a great year of touring and coming out and selling out like every show. Thank you. We just can't tell you how much we appreciate that. Shut up and give me murder.com. also listen to crime and sports and also listen to your stupid opinions. Hilarious stuff. Make your Mondays better. Do that. And then if that's not enough for you, we have more. Oh yeah, that's right. Patreon.com crimeinsports P-A-T-R-E-O-N patreon.com crimeinsports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're gonna get everything we've ever done. Bonus wise, hundreds of back bonus episodes immediately upon subscription and then new ones every other week. And they're fun. This week is no exception. What you're gonna get this week, you get one crime in sports, one small town murder every other week. And you get them all, baby. That's right. Crime and sports. We are going to do kind of a part two of terrible sports songs, team songs and you know, football players thinking they're rappers. It's hilarious. It's listen to it with us so good we're going to play the music and laugh at it and make fun of everybody. So it's good stuff. Then for small town murder we are going to talk about remote viewing. Finally we'll get into that. You think somebody can concentrate Hard enough to see inside a cave 2,000 miles away. Well, they do. The CIA for a long time thought that you could. So we'll talk all about that. It's remote viewings for small town murder. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show, of course, because, damn it, we want to tell you how much we appreciate you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We love you. God damn it.

[James Petragallo]

That said, disclaimer time. Hey, everybody, it's a comedy show. You know, we're comedians. We're going to make jokes. Unfortunately, though, the story is completely real. All the stories are as real as they get. Unfortunately, far too real. Nothing is, you know, embellished for comedic effect because we don't have to embellish anything for comedic effect. The stories are insane. So there you go. None of that stuff here. See what you do, you say, how do you mix true crime and comedy together? Tastefully? That's how you do it. That's it. What you do is you never make fun of the victim or the victim's family.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why, James?

[James Petragallo]

Because we're assholes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But.

[James Petragallo]

But we're not scumbags. That's how that goes. Real easy to do. So if that sounds good to you, you're going to hear just a crazy story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever, ever mix, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you're in the wrong place. You clicked on a weird thing. Give it a shot, and you might. It might not be as bad as you think.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You may not know. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Hey, guys. Small town murder. It's not as bad as you think. That's our new not that bad. It's our new slogan. But if you don't, you know, maybe no complaining later. That said, but for the rest of you who want to hear a crazy story told in a wild way, I think it's time everybody to clear the lungs. What do you say here, Arms to the sky, let's all shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Hey, let's go on a trip, shall we?

[Jimmy Wissman]

We have to.

[James Petragallo]

All right. We're going to Illinois this week.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And normally, what we've been doing, and I don't even know if anyone on earth notices this besides me, but normally we do a regular episode lengthwise, and then six months later, we do an express of that state is how we do it. But this one, we did a regular Illinois, and now we're gonna do another regular Illinois because it's a crazy story and God Damn it. I feel like it. And that's what we're doing. So we're gonna give you the best story we can give you. And that's what this is here. This is Oak Park, Illinois, which is a Chicago suburb. Of course that's what it is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Everything is a Chicago suburb.

[James Petragallo]

Pretty much everything just north of St. Louis is a Chicago suburb.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fucking fascinating how big that city, how sprawling that shit is.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Don't tell the people about midway down Illinois and south of there that they're a Chicago suburb, though. They don't like that very much. They think they're Arkansas, which is really weird. Now, that works. It's about 20 minutes outside of Chicago, about an hour to Libertyville, Illinois. Our last Illinois episode, which was Murder Mansion Mystery, which was a crazy episode. I do remember that this is in Cook county, just like Chicago. Area code 708. And the motto here. This is great stuff. Chicago's fun. Next door neighbors, Chicago. But if you picture, like, if these cities are houses.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Chicago's got a party going on all the time with, like, strobe lights in the window and music and a keg coming through the front window.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is where the real fun is, Jake.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. And they're like, we're the fun neighbors. There's like, we're where you go when.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You'Re pissed at your wife.

[James Petragallo]

We don't complain when people throw up in our front yard. That's what that is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Come help us change the oil on our Nova. We'll have a beer.

[James Petragallo]

Come on over. I'll order pizza. If it takes long enough, I make.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A hell of a nachos. Come on.

[James Petragallo]

A little bit of history of this town used to be part of Cicero. The town of Cicero. This town was originally in the 1800s. The population in this area really boomed in the 1870s with Chicago people resettling in Cicero because Chicago burned down in 1871. Great Chicago fire. As you know, we know most of this country.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The Great Fire.

[James Petragallo]

The Great Fire. From 1870 to about 1910, 85% of the country burned down. It seems like everybody talked about, holy shit here. Weird history of alcohol prohibition in this town, which is weird west, just. Yeah, but not outside of Chicago. Like, in Arkansas, there's dry counties. You know what I mean? Like, not. Wasn't 2nd Arkansas ripped.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That was what Al Capone was running, though, wasn't it?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, but that was during Prohibition of the entire country, not just here. I mean, I assume he just would have stayed out of Oak park if he was. You know, if you want to run booze. So the. When the Village was incorporated, no alcohol was allowed to be sold within the Village limits. And this wasn't relaxed until 1973.

[Jimmy Wissman]

God damn.

[James Petragallo]

Little late. Yeah. Post Woodstock, they still couldn't drink.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Decades of this.

[James Petragallo]

That was when restaurants and hotels were finally allowed to serve alcohol with meals.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's the only time you could get it. You could take it home. No liquor stores, wine with your steak.

[James Petragallo]

But you can have a glass of wine with your steak. Yeah. Then in 2002, they loosened it up a little bit more with select grocery stores receiving governmental permission to sell packaged liquor. This is not 1935. This is ridiculous. Get your shit together and sell beer. Fucking weirdos. Good God. Today, beer and wine is easily accessible. And they have a lot of bars and shit like that too. So they've got. With the program reviews of this town. Here we go. Four stars. Oak park is truly a lovely suburb of Chicago. It only takes 20 minutes to get to the lakefront from downtown. It's a great town with good food, great school system. And this is all caps. Amazing library system.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Wow. I've never heard anyone so enthusiastic about a library system before.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Losing books. 20 minutes away from the lake.

[James Petragallo]

Not bad. Food, books, schools. Three stars. There isn't a lot for people to do except go downtown or to Chicago or smoke weed somewhere. Well, those all sound like fine options. There isn't a lot to do except these three things that are great to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Do for this fun ass weekend I'm about to decide.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, what the fuck? Go downtown, go out to eat, go to Chicago, which is fun, or just smoke weed somewhere. Again, you just gave. That's like my options this weekend, except without Chicago.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is this the south of the city or is that what you said?

[James Petragallo]

It's west. It's a little west of the city. Yeah. One star here. Finally. Genuinely the worst place I have ever lived.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Perfect.

[James Petragallo]

The people are inconsiderate to the point that they're sometimes downright creepy. That's inconsiderate and creepy are two very different things, by the way.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So inconsiderate. They're creepy.

[James Petragallo]

They're creepy. I don't consider leering inconsiderate. That's creepy. Those aren't the same things.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So I'm inconsiderate. Counted my wrinkles in my butthole.

[James Petragallo]

It's real weird. Constant stares when I leave the house. Walking directly behind me about two feet or so. When no one else is around, they let their dogs run up and jump all over you. Even though they've never Met you. Oh, friendly dogs run up and jump. Oh, you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sounds like you're hot as shit. Good for you.

[James Petragallo]

People are staring at you and let. I would love a place where friendly dogs jump all over you. That sounds like a great town. I'll live there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Place where everybody looks at you and lusts over you. Including the dogs.

[James Petragallo]

Including the dogs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a great place to be.

[James Petragallo]

And they say. And then they don't. And then don't say anything to you. Just stare you in the eyes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's the creepy part.

[James Petragallo]

While their dog jumps on you. That's. I don't get. Why is it just like a. She's saying that, like, many people in the town do something. Yeah, this happens all day. Like it's a thing that just happens in this town. I don't understand.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like, this doesn't stop.

[James Petragallo]

What a weird fucking thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I certainly tell everybody about it too.

[James Petragallo]

Right. This place is crazy. Everybody that meets me, they have a friendly dog and then they stare me in the eyes. It's creepy. I've lived here for one over one year, sadly, and have not been met with many situations in which people should have apologized. And have been met with many situations in which people should have apologized. And I can't think of a time in which someone said sorry or excuse me. People will actually look at you, then push the door in your face. Even though they know you're coming into the facility. Store, restaurant, et cetera. 2 seconds ago they're staring at you because you're so hot. Now they won't even hold the door open for you. What happened?

[Jimmy Wissman]

They're insulting you with doors.

[James Petragallo]

You must have dog shit smeared on you or something. Jesus Christ. Parking and driving is horrendous somehow. No one knows how to park, question mark. Usually taking up an extra spot even when it's completely unnecessary and makes parking harder to find. Most people go 10 to 15 mile an hour under the speed limit. I can go on, but I have no more space. They gave up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's all I got.

[James Petragallo]

This is all very strange. Complaints that sound like it's about like one guy one time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And they've lumped it all into one big complaint. One time a guy went slow in front of me in traffic. Another time, someone's dog jumped on me. Another time someone pushed a door in my face.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Or this happens all day, every day.

[James Petragallo]

Or this town has like a weird charter that says you're supposed to be a real fucking weirdo to everybody. One or the other people in this town. Little above what we normally do, but not too far out of, out of whack here. 54,100 at this point. There was a little less when we, when this murder took place here. 50, 53% female, which is 47% male, which is way. That's usually like a logging town will have like 53% male. But in a normal suburb that's a very strange stat. Median age here is about just about 40, which is a couple years older than the regular people here. It's a town, a family kind of town. 50% married, 40% married with children. It's that kind of town here and maybe that's married with children. That was a Chicago suburb too. Race in this town, 63.9% white, 19.4% black, 4.4% Asian, 7.7% Hispanic. So mixed up there. Religion 60% religious here. God very religious for a like a big city suburb. Leading the way here by far is Catholic. 38.7% Catholic. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the north. As we all know here as of the lake of the midwestern Great Lake region, 1.1% Jewish. Oh shit, we get to sing Havana. I don't know the words. Hey. Wow, it's been a while. Unemployment rate here is just about average of the rest of the country. Median household income well above the average. It's average is about 69,000. Here it is $98,081 a year.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Doing terrific.

[James Petragallo]

Not too shabby. Cost of Living 100 is regular in the whole United States. Here it is 105.7. So not too far off. Housing is the expensive thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, sounds like a radio station.

[James Petragallo]

105.7 hits of the 80s, 90s, 2000s and today I don't think that radio.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Station comes in anywhere in the country, but it sounds like a radio station.

[James Petragallo]

And then they have like a montage of like, you know, Leonard Skynyrd with Lady Gaga right after it and or.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Amasa, we play it all.

[James Petragallo]

Leonard Gaga, Lady Skynyrd. Leonard Gaga is my favorite. That's my favorite singer of all time, Leonard Gaga. That's a Halloween costume for everybody. Mix Leonard Skynyrd and Lady Gaga together. Mix the singer of Leonard Skynyrd and Lady Gaga together. Make an outfit out of it and say I'm Leonard Gaga and that's a great Halloween costume. Median housing cost here, 405,000 bucks, which is a little above the average. That's pricey. And if we've convinced you, dammit, you want to be Chicago's fun neighbor, you need a giant mortgage we have for you the Oak Park Illinois real estate report. The average two bedroom rental here is $1,510, which is about 300 above the national aver. Here's a three bedroom, two bath, 964 square foot house. Three bedrooms in less than a thousand square feet is pushing it by the way. But it's, it's, it's because they're different floors. Oh, it's an old brick building and basically it's a very weird building. They say it's an all brick single story with an in law arrangement in the basement. So an apartment in the basement. Finished basement is what they're saying. Main level features three bedrooms and a bath. Basement features two bedrooms and a bath. So actually there's five.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Five and two.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Needs work. Sold as is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Do you warranty on this?

[James Petragallo]

Nope. Just. Here it is. We're not fixing shit. You can do an inspection but we're not fixing anything on it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Are there any houses that are not built, sold as is? You know what I mean?

[James Petragallo]

Well, a lot of times that that means that you can try to ask for credits or you can ask them to fix shit ahead of time when they do the inspection. This is, you can look and see what's wrong, but that's the price and that's what it is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't put a goddamn thing in the contract. We're not fixing anything.

[James Petragallo]

We're not fixing shit. Here is a six bedroom, four bath. This is a cool house. It's an old row house of light colored stone. It's fucking cool looking. It looks so cool. Built in 1900.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh if it's in Chicago. Those are $3 million.

[James Petragallo]

Oh by easy. Yeah. This though, six bed, four bed. I mean beautiful inside too. It's got those like that rounded window room that all those row houses have. 675,000 bucks. Not shit. Too shabby. And then here is a five bedroom, five bath. T bowl for each and every B hole. 7,621 square foot beautiful house from 1902. It's fucking gorgeous. It's so. The huge porch that goes all the way around. It's old wooden staircase. I mean it's been kept up. It's beautiful. Stained glass windows on the stairs. 1,475,000 bucks for that. But acreage, no, no, no acreage, no. But it's a 7,600 square foot house. That's a lot of. That's almost acreage.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Acre under roof.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. You got an indoor acre there. Things to do in this town. Oh Boy, here we go. A Day in Our Village Festival.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, there's going to be lots of festivals.

[James Petragallo]

Lots of those. Oh yeah. Right outside Chicago. This is A Day in Our village festival. The 50th. A day in Our Village Festival. Oh yeah, that's. That's right. The premier community event serves as an annual celebration of Oak Park's diversity and community involvement. And organizers are busy planning a memorable day worth of this year's half century milestone worthy of that. Live music, food, extensive activities for kids. Kids. Including the return of Fun with foam. I don't know. Is that a sexual thing? I don't know. What the hell.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Foam parties are usually like raves, aren't they?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. That's why it immediately made me think it was like a sexual thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Maybe 8 year old running around shooting.

[James Petragallo]

Another foam in their boxer shorts. Dancing in foam. I don't need that either. Sucking on a fucking pacifier for some reason. Yeah. At its core, A Day in Our Village has always provided an opportunity to showcase the variety of ways to get involved in community life. Now what they'll have is here's the musical acts.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's the 50th anniversary. This is a big deal.

[James Petragallo]

This is big. You can imagine the musical acts are.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's gotta be enormous.

[James Petragallo]

Requisitely huge. Yeah, big stuff. 11am the first slot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's when we're gonna get this going.

[James Petragallo]

That, by the way, is the glory spot in any musical lineup. The 11am slot, that's what you want. Juliet Trio will play. They play jazz. Then at noon, Tiny Bubbles will play.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

That's a ukulele player, obviously a Don Ho knockoff there. He'll be accompanied by these Zen life hula dancers. What does this have to do with the Midwest?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nothing.

[James Petragallo]

Nothing. 1pm Skyliners will be there. They're a big band sound. 2pm the announcement of the Davey Awards. Oh, shit. I want to know if I'm getting a Davey this year.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

How often have we been up for a Davey, Jimmy? We're fingers crossed. No idea. Davy Awards. 220. Big suit will be. There they are. And this is very specific. A Talking Heads tribute band.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What?

[James Petragallo]

That is extremely specific and narrow hits do they have? I mean, a few. I like the Talking Heads and all.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But a whole set for everybody to recognize it all.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. You recognize three songs, probably the whole thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know something from Weird Science.

[James Petragallo]

That's what they'll be doing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know many. I don't think I know many other songs.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, you probably. If you heard him you know, like three.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

That were like big hits at best. At best? Yeah. You know, like three, probably. And then finally, 3pm The Chicago Cats. That big suit is the Talking heads only have 40 minutes. So you know what?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Get it in.

[James Petragallo]

That's probably all the hits right there. That's what we play. Those five radio songs you've heard and.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A couple of vague ones that you don't realize are them, but they are.

[James Petragallo]

They are. Yeah. And then finally at 3 o'clock, closing it out with the 3 o'clock slot is the Closer, the Chicago. That's the. That's the headliner, The Chicago Cats with a Z, who are an R and B group.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Real Lollapalooza.

[James Petragallo]

It's a Real Lollapaloozers. Quite the festival here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, lol Palooza.

[James Petragallo]

Jesus. We might get a Davey, though, Jimmy. Very important, whoever the fuck that is. Neither do I. Who knows? But they do have a food court also featuring some exotic foods here. Like Taco Mucho will be there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Real exotic.

[James Petragallo]

Exotic. Then I don't know if you've ever heard of this. I believe it's an Italian place, Domino's Pizza. Have you ever heard of that? It's a Luigi Domino, you know what I mean? It's got a Mario Domino slice of pizza.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Ethnic diversity around here.

[James Petragallo]

Taco Mucho and Domino's Taco Mucho. Taco Mucho, which sounds like very white tacos. Many tacos. Then they'll have hot dogs, Polish, whatever. Polish sausage burgers, veggie burgers. Italian. Italian beef, which, when I first heard of that, I was like, I don't know what that is. How did I miss that? My whole life I'm like, oh, because it's Italian dressing seasoning in the Midwest. That's why.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Because it's not.

[James Petragallo]

Because it's not. Then of course, there'll be beer, wine, ice cream, all that bullshit. Anyway, crime rate in this town, what we're interested in, property crime, is slightly above the average, actually.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

These people are pissed.

[James Petragallo]

They are upset about the Talking Heads tribute ban. You played that one already. And they start throwing shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is our 50th anniversary that you brought us.

[James Petragallo]

That's the best they could get, by the way, for the 50th anniversary. Jesus. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one third under the national average. A little less violent crime, but a good amount of property crime, enough to make up for it. So that said, let us talk about one of the craziest Fucking things I've ever heard about. This is a wild tale here. All right, let's start. Let's talk about a murder is what we're talking about. But let's start here in October 3rd of 1980. Okay, so 1980, we are here. Shaggy hair.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Big bushes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a good time.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's fascinating how like big pubes. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Ear flaps.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You define decades by like the fashion of it.

[James Petragallo]

And you can pick.

[Jimmy Wissman]

70S was different from the 80s, but that like carries over.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like 79 till like 84.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it's 83 is where people started chopping the hair that went over their ears off. That was the ear flap. Like bowl cut hair. They started getting away from that and going with shorter hair and. Yeah, different. No, more like fucking bell bottoms or any, you know, like those big weird pants. Not the bell.

[Jimmy Wissman]

99, 70s pants feels like forever ago. And then I think about like the generation or the decade. Next was obviously 2000s. And when you see footage of 9, 11, you're like, oh, Christ, we dressed like that in 2001.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, we dressed like, well, you know what?

[Jimmy Wissman]

We continued that.

[James Petragallo]

I honestly see that. And I'm like, well, that's much better than now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's not that bad.

[James Petragallo]

Look outside and go. People dress like that now. Now. Big black guys in tight jeans. What's going on?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why are they doing that?

[James Petragallo]

What's happening in this world?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Very bizarre pants too, where they got like a thing on the knee that.

[James Petragallo]

Yes. There's a vertical stripe. Things all sorts of weird shit going on with pants right now. I don't understand.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Patches. Patches.

[James Petragallo]

Jimmy and I discuss constantly that we don't know how to dress because we're both dudes in our 40s, but we have a mental. We have 12 year old mentalities for.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fashion, but neither of us can figure this shit out either.

[James Petragallo]

We don't know how do you dress appropriately. So you don't try to look like you're 20, but also not look like an old man because you're not an old man yet. And you feel like you're 12. So how the fuck does that work? And we're trying to navigate life through this mentally.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm 12, but like, I feel like I'm still kind of cool.

[James Petragallo]

Like I, I, yeah, we're trying to still be cool.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I can do things, but I cool.

[James Petragallo]

We go out, do live show. We're pretty cool people, you know, I.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Can'T dress like a 25.

[James Petragallo]

No, no, I see it. I'm like, okay, that's what people are wearing, but I can't wear that. Yeah, I look a idiot if I wear that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I try my best to like, dress appropriately. Yeah, dress appropriately for my age and then I look like I got a fucking tea time tomor.

[James Petragallo]

Like at our last live show when you hated your show.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Why did I do this to me?

[James Petragallo]

So, October 3, 1980. Let's talk about a young lady, Karen Ann Phillips. Okay. She's 24 years old at this point, and interesting young lady here. She lives, by the way, alone in a studio apartment in Oak park at 324North Austin. She works part time and goes to school as well. So she goes to school at rush Presbyterian Street, St. Luke's Hospital in Chicago. Nursing school, she goes to there. And she also works at the University of Illinois Medical center as well. So she's doing those two things. And on October 3, 1980, she attended nursing school. And then a classmate drove her home after class. And then she went from home to the. How the fuck do you say this? Kriya Yoga. K R I Y A Krya Yoga Kryya. That's Kryah Kriya Yoga Temple in Chicago where she was studying to be a swami. I don't even know she's going to be a nurse and a swami. Yeah. This is when yoga first started, came out. And back then it was more like a cult than anything else. Like now it's just ladies getting exercise. But there's been a bunch of yoga cults over the years that pop up real weird. She then. I don't know if this is one of them. I'm just saying. She then returned to her apartment at about 10:30pm and then her friend Helen called her to arrange a shopping trip for the next day, sick. So we know she went to work or she went to school. We know she came home, that happened. We definitely know she went to class at the yoga place. That happened. And then we know she got home from there safely because at 10:30 she talked to her friend, made plans for tomorrow. So there we go. Now the next day comes around October 4, 1980. It's Saturday afternoon and she doesn't show up for her trip for her friend Helen to go shopping. No. So this woman sent her husband over to Helen's, to Karen's apartment here to check on her, go see if she's okay and pick her up if she needs a ride, whatever. So he knocked on the door and didn't get any response. Didn't get any response. So he immediately contacts the fire department, is that right? Yeah. She's 24 and late for something. It's not like her car is parked out there. And like, you know, there's like a bubbling stove on the. Or bubbling pot on the stove.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He doesn't even have a person. He's looking for paramedics.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, he knocked on the door and he's like, she's not answering. I'll call the fire department. Which is a very strange reaction. I just go, I don't know. She's not home. Maybe she fucking. Who knows? She's 24. She could have met a guy who.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Knows any guys with IV bags. The Jaws of life.

[James Petragallo]

Bring it all. Bring the Dalmatian. I need everything. Whatever you got. Helmets, I don't give a shit. Whatever you got going over there. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Aura Frames. Best gift you could possibly give somebody in your family, your friends, anybody you're close to. From big events to the silly moments you capture every day. Doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera roll? You have to scroll back so far to get them. They're pretty much gone forever. That's how it feels. Wouldn't it be better and great and awesome to have an easy way to share and enjoy them with your friends and family? So these pictures that you took that are important to you actually get seen. That is where Aura comes in. And they come in huge here. Everyone I know has one of these because I have given them to them because they're phenomenal. They're awesome. And we keep doing this, like, I'll get pictures of the kids when I go to Arizona and stuff. And they're on my dad's before I'm even back in New York. They're on my dad's frame. They're on people's frame. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver Mat frames. And they're beautiful too. By using promo code Small Town Murder. At checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code smalltown Murder. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petragallo]

This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp is fantastic. You know what else is fantastic? The holidays. I love it. I love the holiday season. I love December. I love lights. I love trees. I like cold. I like it all. I want it all. The snow. I want all of it. That's right. It's nice and cozy. There's a thing here, though. Therapy is a good way to bring yourself discomfort that never goes away. It's not just one month out of the season. It's all the time. We are proponents of better help because we're big proponents of therapy and big proponents of something that's eating you up. What should they do, Jimmy?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Go get. Go get help.

[James Petragallo]

Go get help. Talk to somebody about it. It's not gonna hurt. It's gonna be better for you. Absolutely. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. Do it up. It's entirely online. It's super convenient. It's flexible. So find comfort this December with better help. Visit betterhelp.com smalltown murder today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp h e l p.com smalltown.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Murder now back to the show.

[James Petragallo]

So they do that. The firemen have to, like, break into her apartment. They must have gone, which is wild that they would do that. You would think that they would be like, how? What? Hold on. She didn't show up for shopping. How long you've been trying to get a hold of her? An hour? Well, fuck, give it a while.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You don't you. I mean, you're not her dad. Who are you? What are you?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, you're not her husband or something like this. Make you're her friend's husband. This doesn't make any sense at all. So they burst in the door, though, and they find that he was right to call the fire department.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is that right?

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yeah. They find her face down, blood everywhere.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, no.

[James Petragallo]

She is totally naked except for a nightgown wrapped around her neck.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petragallo]

And her head is covered with blood. There's numerous wounds on her body. It's obvious that she's been through quite a bit of trauma here. So the officer who entered the apartment, they call the cops, Obviously, they're like, oh, this is outside our fucking. Oh, they don't need nothing outside our jurisdiction. Yeah, we need nothing Here. Take the Dalmatian back. Put it back in the truck.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't let him see this, by the way.

[James Petragallo]

Don't let him jump on that lady. She hates it. She hates it. See? Yeah, she'll get very mad. Don't stare at her while the dog does it either. So this poor woman is, you know, this officer walks in to find this poor woman, Karen Phillips here, and he says he saw a body lying flat face down on the floor with the arms extended forward and the legs extended out from the rear of the body, slightly parted, a distance of about 2ft between the ankles. So not like way apart, but not ankles together, certainly apart. Yeah, just a little bit. Kind of the way you would fall and where your legs would kind of go naturally. He said the body was naked except for a nightgown pulled tightly around the neck. And the body exhibited numerous wounds and abrasions about the face, head, and back. So it looks like she's just been. Looks like. Yeah, it looks like she's been thrown out of a car that goes 100 miles an hour and just. This is what happened. So the odd thing is here, her fingers were pressed together in a hand signal of an O. Oh, like her. Yeah. Index and thumb, index and thumb. Like this. That's how her finger. Her hands were. Which they were like.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He does a dial.

[James Petragallo]

He does the diamond. Yeah, which is diamond. Dallas Page already did that when he did that. So I was always like, what are you doing? Are you calling for a diamond cutter right now? Because he's about to end the match. I don't know what's happening right now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't ask for that, Jay.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, I never understood that at all. Like, what are you doing?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hova, he's coming.

[James Petragallo]

That's not yours, bro. It's just not yours. What the fuck, bro?

[Jimmy Wissman]

He might do it on principle of you stealing his shit.

[James Petragallo]

That's what. That's what I want to learn.

[Jimmy Wissman]

X chop your crotch, too, man.

[James Petragallo]

Diamond Dallas Page Give a diamond cutter to Jay Z would be the oddest thing in the world. Strangest thing I've ever seen. So now this. By the way, this hand signal in the yoga. Because this Kriya yoga is like a religion kind of thing. It's like a philosophy. I don't know if it's a religion. Kind of like. Buddhism isn't technically a religion. It's a philosophy type thing. I don't know if this would be considered a religion or a philosophy. I don't really fucking care either.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm just saying there's meditation. That's like that, too.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah. It's different. Whatever, but in principles, in this yoga world, this hand signal is supposed to signify that the person is accepting death and seeking peace.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, what the fuck?

[James Petragallo]

Yes. That's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Where would you do that?

[James Petragallo]

I don't. I guess when you. When you're about to die, rather than in, like, a Christian religion or whatever other religion that you're supposed to, like, pray to God or whatever, this you're supposed to make this hand signal and that shows that you're accepting death and seeking peace. And that's like. That's their way of prayer, I guess would be the best way to put it, I think.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Does it like freeze like that when you die? Because wouldn't you relax?

[James Petragallo]

I don't know. No, I mean, when you die, sometimes you relax, but you stay pretty stiff. And if she did it as she died and you could stay like that, or it could be staged. That's the other thing. Or someone could have put her hands like that as a. That's. That's one of the things we don't know here. Now, at the direction of the officers, 11 photographs were taken. The first few. First one showed the victim's upper body. She's lying flat in a supine position with her face bloodied. Another photograph shows her upper body and part of her legs. That photograph shows her lying flat, face downward, with her arms extended forward, legs lying flat with only a few inches of space between them, meaning the thighs, not the ankles. Five of the photographs show the victim lying flat, face downward, arms extended forward, legs lying flat, slightly parted and extended out from the rear of her body and two feet between the ankles. Three of the photographs show the victim's upper body lying flat, downward, arms extended. So it's just different angles. Basically, none of the photographs show her lying in a position that's characteristic of a sexual encounter. She wasn't staged with her legs apart or anything like that, or rape like. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

On display?

[James Petragallo]

Well, we'll find out here because. But it wasn't left on display because some people will stage the crime like that. Yeah, that's not what happened here. So near where she died was a two tiered end table used as an altar for her yoga stuff. It held a candle, several religious type pictures, two incense burners all up there on her thing. She's right by there. Okay. Now we don't know if she went over there to get closer to it and make the hand signal or if this is all on purpose or all staged this way. Who knows? So in addition, they find hairs in the apartment which do not belong to her. In her hand. Oh, that's something I would say. And also in her hand pubic region and on the carpet and bed sheet as well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The hairs.

[James Petragallo]

Hairs that don't belong to her. Yeah, the hair strands, blood samples, vaginal, rectal and oral swabs are taken from the body. There is no evidence of forcible entry into the apartment either. Whoever came in, she let Them in now, of all the. All the evidence is obtained, they send it off to the crime lab. Later autopsy revealed that the cause of death was a combination of beating and strangulation.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Good Christ.

[James Petragallo]

Okay. And a vaginal smear reveals the presence of seminal material as well. So there was sexual activity. There's a rape involved here. Absolutely. So, yes. So that's what we got. Now. Outside in some bushes outside the apartment, they find a tire iron encrusted with hair and blood.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I wonder if that's connected.

[James Petragallo]

Huh? You think that might be. Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Perhaps that's related.

[James Petragallo]

And go. I know where the blunt force wounds came from. Probably that we got now. Yeah. The O fingers is interesting here. Apparently a friend, Helen, the friend that was expecting her to go shopping, she told the cops that the O hand signals as O, M, M U D R A S amudras, symbols used in the particular Hindu denomination to. With which both Helen, this woman, and Karen belonged. Which is all part of the yoga thing there. Now, Karen is a swami at the yoga temple, and she explained that that hand signal signifies the search for peace and the passive acceptance of death. So, yeah, that's what we got going on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She knows it's coming. Can't do anything about it. I'm fine with it.

[James Petragallo]

But if you're. I don't understand how you're being beaten and strangled and that's. You just make a hand signal rather than try to fight off your attacker. Like that doesn't. It's because she had handfuls of hair too, which doesn't make sense that she would be fighting and fighting. And then it's just odd.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Just accept it.

[James Petragallo]

It seems staged to me, certainly.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

You know what I mean? Yeah. It seems like I could see if you were dying in a hospital bed from a disease and, you know, you were fading away and you made the signal, that'd be one thing. But as someone's beating, raping, and murdering you, I can't imagine you're just like, this is fine. I'm not a yoga guy, but I've.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Seen a few people die like that that are like, older, elderly, and have a. Nobody ever does any sort of symbol of acceptance. It's always panic and their chin. This guy gasping for air.

[James Petragallo]

It's always terror. Yeah. It's never good. No, no.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's no, like, subtle hand signals saying.

[James Petragallo]

I'm fine with this. I'm good with this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Every one of them are like, I don't want this.

[James Petragallo]

Everybody out there, give your grandparents a hand signal to make if they're Fine with dying. If when you die you're cool with it, make this signal. If not, then we'll know that you didn't want to go.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And then give them a hug and tell them, sorry, it's gonna happen anyway.

[James Petragallo]

Jesus Christ, man. So they need to question the neighbors here to find out if anybody heard anything, saw anything, obviously anybody come in and out of her apartment. They talked to a bunch of different neighbors. Only a couple of them have anything of any value to give. One is Mohammed Azadi Azajin. He's a student who lives in the apartment next door to Karen. He said he heard voices and pounding coming from her apartment at about 12:45 to 1:00 in the morning. Somewhere in there that morning.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't disturb that.

[James Petragallo]

No, no, you go, I don't know what's going on over there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Good for them.

[James Petragallo]

Fuck yeah. So he could not make out what was being said, although he thought it was some kind of argument, which you also don't want to intervene in. You're like, oh, well, turn the music up louder. I guess he and he did go knock on her door. Actually did, but didn't get any answer. This is in the middle of the argument. He knocked on the door to see if anything. This guy's a nice guy. Christ. After going back to his apartment, he heard the argument again. This time in lower voices, though. It would be like this type of thing, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like low whisper yelling, but I'm still pissed at you. Yeah. And this. And he heard more pounding this time as well. So that's something. The next door neighbor, at least they know a time when this was going on probably about 12:45. So that narrows it to 1:00 in the morning. Anywhere in there now they talk down the street. A guy who lives in a house right down the street named Steven Paul Lynn Scott. L I N Scott with two T's. He's born July 9, 1954. So he's about 26 at this point in time. He's from Newport, Rhode island, originally. He went to the University of Maine for two years and then in 74 he joined the U.S. navy. He was a radio man and all that kind of thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He tolerated that accent, huh?

[James Petragallo]

They did, absolutely. That Rhode island fucking New England accent. So that's fine, I guess. He became a radio man and even was granted top secret clearance in the Navy as well. He got married when he was in the Navy as well. He married a woman named Lois, which just makes me think of Family Guy. All I Can picture is Lois Griffin.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's got a wife named Lois, with.

[James Petragallo]

That accent and everything. And a wife named Lois. I can't help it. It's just all I can think of now. She is the daughter of former missionaries to the Bahamas. Her parents would always be missionaries to the Bahamas. So he got an honorable discharge from the Navy in March of 79. They lived in Maine, then they moved to Chicago in the fall of 79 and then they spent the following summer in Maine and then finally moved to Oak park about a month before this whole thing with Karen went down. With Karen Phillips went down. So they've only been there a month.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And what they're doing here is he is a Bible student at Emos Bible College in Oak park and he lives with his wife Lois and his two children. They have a two and a half year old named Catherine and a nine month old named Paul. So he's got a young family, 26, couple kids, little house, going to Bible college. He's also running a halfway house out of this house as well. He's like, you know, preaching to prisoners and it's a convict halfway house. He's doing that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You gotta be kind.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. So he said he heard of the Bible school while overseas and applied there and a couple other places and was accepted at this Bible school and he came there right from the Navy. He said, you know, before this he was working as a construction laborer back in Maine and all that kind of thing. The only criminal thing he has in his background is a speeding ticket in 1972 in Maine.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Literally that's it. Not a parking ticket. Other than that, they're low speed. Yeah, yeah. And you're taking off here. He operates the Good News Mission is what he calls it. That is the. It's a counseling service and a halfway house for convicts from his home.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Real clever name.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Good news. I've got good news. So they canvass the neighborhood, they speak with him. He lives in a building, kind of right there's the apartments and then his house is right next to that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petragallo]

So he's kind of the other side of her. So the police asked him and his wife Lois if they had seen or heard anything strange at about 1 o'clock in the morning that night, because someone's been murdered here. So, you know, if you have let.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Us know has been a murder.

[James Petragallo]

So Lois said she went to bed about 10 o'clock, didn't hear shit, slept solid till 6am she said, I don't know, he was still up, Steve was still up when she went to bed. So she said, I don't know what time he came to bed, but I know that she said that she arose during the night once to go to the bathroom and husband was sleeping there in bed. And then at about 6am she got up to get the kids all, you know, talk to the kids and get them breakfast and stuff. And he was still sleeping in bed. So, yeah, there's that. Now, he was told by the. They said, well, we don't remember anything. We were sleeping or we don't really know anything. So they said, okay, that's fine. They said, if you remember anything. They said, no matter how silly it might seem, anything, no matter how innocuous, you heard a knock, you heard a bump, you had anything at all, let us know about it. Call us, okay? So a day goes by and then Steve talks to Lois and says, I had this dream that night. The night of the murder. I had this dream. He says, I don't know whether it's significant or not, but I had this dream. So he tells his wife that. Then he tells someone who works in the building where he lives that he dreamed about the murder that happened. Apparently while it was happening, he was dreaming about it. So he told his wife and he told his friend that. And his friend said, you should probably call the police. Maybe it'll help the police. Maybe the dream was something. So on Monday he talks about there's a newspaper article about the murder and all that kind of thing. And he talks about the whole thing with his wife and he's like, oh, this poor girl, you know, she's murdered and all this. And I had this dream. So the wife said, you need to go to the police. It might be helpful. I mean, even if it's not, they said, no matter how silly it seems.

[Jimmy Wissman]

To call them, that is pretty fucking silly.

[James Petragallo]

It's pretty fucking silly. I had a dream that night. So they said. He said, I'll just call, I'll call him. Just, you know, maybe he'll help, who knows?

[Jimmy Wissman]

I had a dream. Wanna hear my dream?

[James Petragallo]

Wanna hear my dream? The last thing anyone wants to hear is another person's dream. But I guess they did say no matter how silly. So they got to be expecting some calls here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Personal movies with no ticket. Bought that for you.

[James Petragallo]

And no plot and no acts and no, it's just a weird mashed together.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Smoking and you did it with a patch.

[James Petragallo]

Forget it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fucked up dream.

[James Petragallo]

You're gonna have fucked up dreams and like lions are chasing you. It's gonna be great. Lions with red eyes. It's bad stuff. So he says, okay, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll call the cops. So he called the cops and told them, hey, I had a dream about the murder. The same night the murder had been reported. So the cop on the phone said, tell you what to do. Here, bud, write it all down and we'll get back to you. No, we'll get back to you. We'll contact you later. You just write it down.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hit us with a forever stamp.

[James Petragallo]

So not real interested is what. No, not mail it. Write it all down. And then we'll contact you. And then when we want to hear.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It, we'll holler at you when we.

[James Petragallo]

Have no other leads, when a detective is ready, because these are just the people taking leads. So they said, you had a dream, write it down, and a detective will contact you. That's what they said. Which is okay, sure. Which sounds like, whatever, asshole. Fuck off. So he. He does that. He writes a written version of the dream, which a detective picks up the following day. Just picks it up. I heard you have something for me. Okay. Grabs that. That evening, two cops come to his house. Oh, they read his account back to him of the dream. And, you know, go over as. Did you mean to say this? Did you mean to say that? And one of the police officers asked, why didn't you describe the murder weapon in here? And I'll give you a detailed dream, because I have his exact. I have transcripts of shit. So I'll tell you exactly what his dream was.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Awesome.

[James Petragallo]

How come you didn't describe the murder weapon? And he said that? Well, in the phone call conversation that I had with the other police officer that I called, I told them what it was. I don't know why I didn't write it down, but he said he thought the murder weapon was blunt. A blunt object that looked to him like a tire iron. Oh, so now they're interested when he says, that's very specific. How many blunt objects are there to beat someone with, especially in a house? A tire in an apartment. Not even in a garage.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And he happened to pick the one that they found in the bushes. That's unbelievable.

[James Petragallo]

Covered in blood and hair.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's. Buy a lotto ticket. That's.

[James Petragallo]

You are on the money, my friend. Yeah. Do you dream of numbers, my friend? So later on, he said that he didn't refer to the murder weapon as a tire iron. And he told the police officer that he hadn't described the murder weapon as a tire iron in his written account because he was uncertain what the object was in his dream. But he did tell the other cop that it looked like a tire iron. Okay, so October 8th is when he comes to the police station. Get on down here. We need to. Let's sit down.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

So they bring him in and it's two officers there with him. And this is his interview. They said, okay, I'm cutting out the. I'm trying to trim the fat here, but this is going to be a. A little. A pretty good chunk of interrogation, but trust me, it's worth it. And it's really fucking interesting. I find police interrogations to be fascinating.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They are definitely murder ones because there's.

[James Petragallo]

A lot of stuff.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Certainly not. Not interested.

[James Petragallo]

Not.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Not interesting. It's watching people whether they're guilty or had nothing to do with it.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Watching their behavior in front of cops that don't know. And they're figuring out whether or not.

[James Petragallo]

They know or they do know. And they're trying to get this person into a certain place to say something or try to whatever. So they said, okay, Steve, you want to relate to us how you became involved in the investigation, because this is. They turn the tape recorder on and he says, yeah, I was. It was about 4:00 in the afternoon on Saturday afternoon, I believe it was. And we noticed the fire trucks and the police cars out to the side of the house in front of the other apartment building. And before long, two police officers came over, knocked on the door and inquired as to whether or not we might have any information concerning any strange person, persons in the area or strange goings on or noises. And I responded that I had been occupied all afternoon in our apartment and that I hadn't heard anything. And he said it was late last night, about 1am and I mentioned I hadn't heard anything and that I would inquire as to the rest of the house and if the rest of the people that were living there, whether they had heard anything. By the way, this is a house with convicts in it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Whether. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes. Halfway. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

These guys just got out, he said, and they all came up. They all came up in the negative is what he said.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What does that mean?

[James Petragallo]

Meaning, no, nobody had heard anything. It was at that point when he met. They all. Nobody had hiv. They were all clear. Tests came back positive. It was.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Off.

[James Petragallo]

And he's negative for hepatitis. Good. It was at this point when he mentioned it, I said, I remembered I had a dream that night, a very vivid dream about somebody Beating somebody else to death. And he also mentioned that it was. I believe he said that a girl had been murdered, although I'm not sure he said girl. I think he may have said just a person was murdered. We said that we would get back to them and he invited us to get back and call the police station if we remembered anything at all in the smallest detail. So I said that we would. And he took my name and number and left. It wasn't until a couple days later, thinking it over and remembering the dream and after mentioning it to two of the staff personnel in the building, that I had a dream concerning someone beating someone to death, that they advised me I should go ahead and call in and just see what the police thought about it and let them.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is this weird or no?

[James Petragallo]

And left them to make the decisions about it. Is this strange? The only other person I had mentioned it to was my wife. I thought I had mentioned it to her the very morning we got up. Because normally if I have a very vivid dream, I'll mention it to her. And she said no. That it was that evening that I called was the first time she heard of it. And what finally tipped me off or what finally caused me to call in was that she had mentioned that she had read in the paper about the murder and that it was somebody who had been beaten to death. And so I decided to go ahead and call in. I called in about 9:30, roughly that evening, I believe it was, and talked for about a half hour to the officer. So that's where we are. They said, have you ever had any contact with police before in your life? And he said, I went through a stoplight. And they said, just a traffic arrest. And he said, right. And they said, where was this? And he said, Maine in 72. So they said, in reference to your dreams, have you had similar instances in your past where you dreamt about something that actually had occurred? Are you psychic? I think is what they're getting.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Do you do this a lot?

[James Petragallo]

He says, yes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, dude. His answers are bonkers, man. Yes. Growing up as a teenager and into early 20s, I did dream fairly often about certain things, or not even dreams. Just have an impression during the day and it would come true and it would always be something that would affect my life. I was never. It was never about anyone else. It was sort of like being in a situation talking with certain people that possibly I hadn't talked with before. And I would find myself in a situation talking to them, you know, like a premonition type deal or deja vu, like today almost. Yeah, yeah, Deja now. And so I.

[Jimmy Wissman]

30 minutes.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. So I always logged in this sort of. I always log this and sort of speak, sort of speak in my mind. But, you know, never tried to think too much or develop it or anything like that. But I was aware that it was happening and it hasn't been happening in the last six years or so, six or seven years until this summer. And I had sort of an impression that I would be involved with the police and this happened. Okay. They said, what do you mean by impression?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

He said, well, just I. That I would be involved with the police and also that I'd be worried about my studies and that sort of thing because of the pressures of studies. And it's just sort of an emotional impression or premonition. So they go, and when did you get this premonition? And he says, I just, I don't know, one day at work, I think this summer back in Maine. I just sort of had this impression. And I was aware that it was a similar type of experience that I had experienced as I was growing up as a teenager and that it was the first time in six years. And it's not that I don't give a lot of credence, though it used to happen quite frequently. I never try to give it much credence. I always wait to see if it's going to happen. I said, okay. Have you ever discussed this ability you have with anybody else? Yeah, anybody. Anybody know that you're psychic here?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Anybody know you're fucking figuring it out before it all happens?

[James Petragallo]

He said, just my mother, who seems to have the same sort of ability. Oh, so the shining passes down. That's nice. That's good. Oh, my God. Hereditary shining. My mother Andorra from fucking Bewitched is the. Wow. Okay. They said, my dad, Darren's a real piece of shit. He's a real asshole. Or Samantha was the wife and Dora was the mom of Samantha. I think I remember when I was a kid, it was on constantly on reruns and I was like, this shows he's Bewitched.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Or was he.

[James Petragallo]

No, no, he's Bewitched. And there was two of them, both named Dick.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petragallo]

Both Darren's were played by two different people, both named Dick. Dick York and Dick Sargent.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is that right?

[James Petragallo]

Swear to God. Fucking ridiculous. So just my mother who seems to have the same sort of ability. And that was many years ago, so I haven't mentioned it since we were living in the same house, this sort of thing. He said, okay. Who did you speak to specifically? And he said that, I think I spoke with Jim Sourman the evening before I called the police, which would have been Sunday evening. They said, do you recall what you told him? He said, I told him I thought it was funny that the only information I had for the police was that I had a dream with a very strong impression of a fella who was beating somebody that I couldn't quite make out and was beating him to death. And he was quite shocked at the dream and thought that I should call it in immediately. And then the following evening, I spoke with Carlos Cordeiro, who was another staff member of the house, and he also thought I should call it in and it might be something significant. Okay. So they said, and what was it specifically you talked to him about? He said, I also told him I had a dream that I dreamed and that a man was beating somebody to death and that it was a very strong impression. And I related to him that the police were looking for someone in connection with the homicide. And I said it was the same night this happened. So they suggested I call in, too. Everyone I talked to said I should call you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I tell everybody this shit. And they say, call somebody else.

[James Petragallo]

Call somebody. Talk to them. I don't want to fucking hear it. So they said, was your wife the first person you discussed this with? And he said, no, I guess it was Jim Sourman. I thought I discussed it with my wife, but Jim Sourman was the first one. They said, when did you, in fact, discuss it with your wife? And he said, I did, but not until we went for a walk Monday evening. And as we were walking, I mentioned to her the dream, and she related to me. Actually, I think she related to me first that the newspaper mentioned that the woman who was killed was beaten to death. And then I told her about the dream, and I told her that I had a dream the same night where a man was beating someone to death. And it was a very strong impression. They go, why don't you give me a little background up to the time that you had the dream. Maybe you were. We'll find this out. Who knows? Maybe you were blackout drunk and you were doing this. So they said you had the dream at about what time? He said, now, you never know what time you have a dream.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a great point.

[James Petragallo]

What time does that dream? I don't fucking know. Sometime between 10 and 6, I believe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Probably I fell asleep at this time. I woke up at this time. That's what time it was.

[James Petragallo]

Anytime in there. He said, I Believe it was between 1 and 3 in the morning.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How do you believe that?

[James Petragallo]

How would you know? You had the dream at the exact time the murder was going on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And I believe I Woke up at 2. I think I looked at my watch and it was two in the morning the first time that I woke up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You think. You think you go to sleep, you wake up and you look at the clock. You know what fucking time you woke up.

[James Petragallo]

You know what time you woke up? I mean, sometimes you don't remember waking up and looking at the. The clock maybe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. You'll wake up sometimes because there's times when. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can wake up in the middle of the night not remember it. Because there's nights where I'm like, did I pee last night in the middle of the night? Did I get up to take a piss or not? And I don't remember. Yeah, not sure. I'm like, I'm not sure if that was last night or the night before. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

Get all mixed up when I'm sleeping.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I've never gotten up in the middle of the night to pee.

[James Petragallo]

To pee in the middle of the night.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Never.

[James Petragallo]

Really? Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like, I hear about that about old men. Like, they do it like three, four times in their sleep. And not. Not calling you. No, man.

[James Petragallo]

No, no, no, no. You.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know, I'm like, really?

[James Petragallo]

I. I chug like an entire bottle of water before I go. I'm drinking so much water, so I always do that. I'm like, why'd I do that? And then I'm gonna have to piss now for sure. I know. I'm like, I got. I got like five hours and that's. I'm gonna have to piss. I just drank 16 hours.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's how you do it on the road, right? You chug and go to sleep so that you make sure that you have.

[James Petragallo]

To wake up when I can only sleep, like, two and a half hours before a flight. Yes. I'll drink, like, an entire bottle of water. I'll be like, I'll be up in two hours. No problem. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Sono Bello. Here are three reasons why fall is the perfect time to go to Sono Bello. Number one, summer's over and the kids are back to school. Number two, you've earned some me time. That's right. You deserve this long summer. And number three, Sono Bello's Friends and Family fall savings event is on. Friends and family here this whole thing. Our friends at Sono Bello are offering you guys their best deal. You're now included in their Friends and Family Fall Savings event. You'll get the same price that Sono Bello doctors, nurses and staff receive. But appointments are limited, so please get on it. Now. Get into the Sono Bello doctors are masters in micro laser fat removal. You want that? A brilliant technique that removes stubborn fat permanently wherever your problem areas are. Tummy, love handles, thighs, arms, whatever you got that you want to change, they can help you out there. It's gone in one comfortable visit. Eating healthy and workouts are great. Keep doing that. But if you want to lose that stubborn fat in one visit, check out Sono Bello Save Big during Sono Bello's Friends and Family Fall Savings events. Schedule your free consultation [e-mail] SmallTownMurder that's S O N O B E L L O.com SmallTownMurder.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Christmas is coming up, James. Did you know that?

[James Petragallo]

It is coming up. That's very important. You know what people should do around Christmas? Oh, you need shopping money. And the thing is, sometimes you're gonna find money in places you never thought. Like where like subscriptions that you're paying for, you don't need to pay for because you don't even know you're paying for them. But yet they're coming out of your account every month.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How can you fix that?

[James Petragallo]

Rocket Money is what helped me out. That's the thing. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow that savings. Rocket Money Will they negotiate lower bills for you? They can do that by up to 20%. All you have to do, submit a picture of your bill. Rocket Money. They take care of the rest. They'll deal with customer service. You don't need to be on hold for two hours. Rocket Money will take care of it. It's wonderful. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in cancelled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocket money.com smalltown murder that's rocketmoney.com smalltown murder rocketmoney.com small town murder now back to the show. Hey everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you more about our safest sponsor, Simply Safe. If you Ever worry about the safety of your home and family? There's no better time to act than right now. Simplisafe is the home security that we trust. That is a fact. We've been using it for, I think, seven years now. And it brings great peace of mind. It's fantastic. You know your stuff is protected. You knowing your home is protected 24. Seven by SimpliSafe is a huge relief. Get 50% off today just by visiting simplisafe.com small it's your last chance to protect your home at Simplisafe's lowest prices of the year. Simplisafe's active guard outdoor protection changes the game by preventing crime before it even happens. If someone's lurking around or acting suspiciously, those agents see them in real time, talk to them directly, set off your spotlights, and even call the police before anybody's had a chance to get into your house. That is awesome. Simplisafe is extending its massive Black Friday deal for our listeners this week only. You can get 50% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. This is your last chance to claim their best offer of the year. Head to SimpliSafe.com Small that's SimpliSafe S I M P L I Safe.com Small there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, that's a. It's an old fucking clever. Like an old Native American war trick that they used to do with to attack a village.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Stay in one spot too long?

[James Petragallo]

No, no, it's so you can get up at 4am to attack a village. Everybody will drink like two big glasses of water before they go to bed. It's a thing. I learned that from Bart Simpson when I was 14. So they said, which morning would that be? He said it would be the evening of maybe Saturday morning. He said, I think it was a short time later. I mentioned before the dream is in. I mentioned before that the dream is in two stages. Okay, this is the other thing. He had a dream and he said he woke up, looked at his watch, went back to sleep, and the dream continued on like it was a movie on pause.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Good for you.

[James Petragallo]

That's amazing. We all do that. We're like, come on, get back in that dream. It never happens. So he said the dream was in two stages. And the second stage was after I fell asleep after waking up for the first time for five or 10 minutes. And then I woke up again after that and I heard a noise. So I walked into my living room and I walked around for a few minutes and trying to shake off the effects of the dream and get some more sleep. And they go, let's back up from that point. Yeah, back it up a little bit here. He said, okay. He's so like, all right, just. I'm willing to. They said, Friday, what'd you do Friday? Let's go from there. He said, okay, My memory is usually terrible on days, but let's see, Friday I was in School until 12:30. He said, Probably Friday was probably a relaxed day. I think that I worked around the place. I'm trying to think of what kind of work I did, but I believe I worked on my car a little bit and just did some general things and also did some studying in the afternoon and the evening. I can't remember too much about the evening at all. They said, do you remember who you were, who you were with? And he said, let's see. My memory's very terrible when it comes to days for some reason, but I remember every detail of a dream. Days later though, right? Which I don't remember a dream. I'll remember it right when I wake up. And then an hour later, I'm like, what the fuck happened? Again?

[Jimmy Wissman]

And if I want any of it to stick, I gotta write it down.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Otherwise, who the hell knows? So he says, but I'll check back and try to find out if we were with anybody. They said, you were at home with your family or by yourself. They're getting frustrated now. What the fuck? Who's we? He said, yes, right. Normally we'd be at home unless somebody was over or something like that. They're like, great. That's all we were trying to figure out here. Were you out or home? What time did you go to bed? He said, we went to bed about 10:30 or 11. No, his wife went to bed at 10, he went to bed later. So the we thing, right away I'm like, nope, you didn't go to bed at the same time. And I remember we spent most of the evening just sort of chit chatting with the guys and talking with some of the guys at the residence in the house and that sort of thing, you know, eating a little food together, that sort of thing. And then we went up around 10:30 and I think we were asleep by 11 or so. They said, and when did you walk? And when you went out, you went up to your apartment in the building? And he said, right. He said, so this is 11:00 in your bed with your wife and you had fallen asleep and now what time is the beginning to the best of your recollection, do you recall this dream beginning? He says, well, I don't really recall if it's something that happened at intermittent periods like some dreams do. But I think though that my remembrance is that it was just a solid dream, a solid impression roughly between 1 and 2 in the morning. And I dreamed it at that period and I think I woke up at 2am and for the first part of it I tried to shake the dream off because it was such a strong impression and I was interested in sleep. So I went back to sleep. They said, had you taken anything to help you go to sleep that night?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

No, nothing. Had you been drinking at all that night? That's what they were trying to get. Were you doing acid and mushrooms all day? And then what happened? And he said no. They said, well, we might as well get into the dream now. Why don't you relate to us what you recall about this dream, okay? He said, okay, I remember probably the first part of it would be seeing a man, a man's face. The description would be blonde hair, short blonde hair and sort of very fair, you know, light features, not muscular, but sort of square chested. Wearing a terry cloth shirt with two, I think horizontal stripes across the chest. Looking for Charlie Brown. Now who the fuck are we looking for? And across the chest and I think one on the arm. Remember that shirt? And they said what color shirt? He said the shirt I believe was white or off white, sort of yellow. And I think the stripes were red or purple or something of that nature. And I believe that he had on brownish red pants, you know, Burt red pants on or something along those lines. That tone. This is 1980. So you go, who the fuck wears burnt red pants? 1980 wears burnt red pants.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's exactly who reading Rainbow uniform.

[James Petragallo]

That is very late 70s outfit. He just described ugly as sin. He said he was a friendly, he had a friendly way about him and he was very at ease with. I could see that he was talking with somebody. And throughout the whole dream he was facing me and I was looking straight on him. And I had the impression that I was a little taller than he was. And so he was roughly 55 to 5 7, I believe. So he's like in this dream, like literally like at his height in the dream, he's looking through his eyes. It's not just like I see him up. Yeah. Like there's a camera in the corner of the room. It's like I am from my height. He's right in front of me, which is very weird. Most of the time I see myself in my dreams. I'm not. It's usually not pov, you know what I mean? So that's interesting. And he said, I think the thing which stuck out most to me was that he was just very friendly and very easygoing and very comfortable in the situation. He wasn't at all distressed with whoever he was talking to, very much at ease with the person. There was a light on behind him to his left, and I was facing him, and it was slightly below his head. It made kind of a soft glow in the room. And I had the impression that it was some sort of living room type situation. He said about a little ways into the dream, he started to change a little bit in his attitude, becoming more. What I felt was more evil intent or something like that. Also, he produced an object. I think he got it from behind his back. And he was showing it to whoever he was talking to. And he just. The impression that I got was that he was talking to a girl rather than a guy. And during this time, just because of the change in his face, he was showing this object to her and starting to smile a little bit, that I had some sort of impression that, you know, this is something which is not at all that healthy. So for whatever reasons, I woke up and I tried to shake it off so that I wouldn't interfere with sleep. And I tried to go back to sleep. After I got back to sleep, I dreamed that this person had this object and was beating this person downward. This person who was being beaten was below his waist and below his knees or in that area. So he's got like a frame of like a. Like a movie frame. Like, this is where the camera is. If it goes below it, I don't see anything.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's beating a dog, but it's just out of sight.

[James Petragallo]

Just out of. Yeah, yeah. He said in the last thing I heard, oh, he was beating her on the head, you know, quite a bit. And the last thing that I heard had on that part or the second stage of the dream was this weapon hitting bloody flesh and a lot of blood spraying everywhere. And this is the last part. And there was a lot of blood. I remember that. And then I woke up for the second time. I thought that I heard a noise from my front room. So I went out to our front room to look around and also to shake off this dream. I wondered if maybe I wasn't being impressed, possibly that there was somebody in the room or something. And I had somehow Dreamed about it. Like, did I dream about what's just going to happen to me? He's saying, I thought sometimes there's something like that is connected. So I went out there and I walked around and there was nobody around. So I went back to sleep, back to go to sleep. And I sat on the side of the bed for a minute and I thought things over and thought about the dream and I tried to shake it off and went back and laid down to go to sleep. I slept soundly until the next morning. They said, did you at any time when you got up and heard the noise in your front room, did you investigate further and go downstairs or anything like that? And he said, no, I thought it was just coming out of the dream, but I felt like it was still close by. You know, I thought it was rustling of paper, but quite close by. So I went out into the front room to look around and there wasn't anybody. They said, at any time did you leave your bedroom or your apartment and go downstairs? He said, no. Okay. They said, in this dream, this is the cop. Now in this dream, the dream begins with a relaxed conversation, as you stated, a man and what you believe to be a woman. He said, how did you perceive the woman? And he said, I don't really get much impression of her at all. I mentioned earlier to you that my impression of her while she was being beaten was that she was not resisting at all. And that I had the impression that she was crouched on her hands and knees after the first couple blows and then she actually fell to the floor. But there wasn't a lot of resistance. And I had the impression that she was conscious enough to make some sort of resistance, but she wasn't able to or she didn't. Also that I didn't have the impression of her nationality or anything except that the last part of the dream where the weapon did a lot of hitting flesh and there was a lot of blood that. My impression was that she was black. Karen's not black, by the way, but.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She could be black and blue.

[James Petragallo]

She's definitely got some. Some. Yeah, whoever's this is, is black and fucking blue. So he said, my only impression that. But that's the only impression I have is that it was black flesh. So that is about the Olegs. Black skin, maybe, but the flesh is all the same color. Okay. So that is about the only impression I get. And basically the dream centers on this person. And I get quite a clear view of this person standing there chatting and very easygoing type of person and very Relaxed, that is what my dream is focused on. He said, do you recall in the dream what the lady might have been wearing? And he said, no, I can't. Do you recall in your dream? Apparently this easygoing, relaxed man entered the lady's apartment some way. Do you recall how that was? And he said, no, I don't. But I thought the door was behind him, behind his back and not too far away, like he just, just had entered the room. They said not too far away. He said, not too far away, maybe six or seven feet, something like that. But I'm not real sure because I had the impression that he walked into her place possibly on her invitation or something like that. I wasn't too sure. But I remember the first greeting was not strange at all. It was very easy going and as friends are, you know, glad you're here, glad that, glad you're here. Back and forth. He said, was there a knock at the door? They asked Scott or Steve here. Steve said, I don't get any impression there at all. The first impression that I have is that the person is not quite standing or maybe taking one or two steps into the room and that's it, you know, coming in through the door or a knock or anything proceeding that I don't have any impression at all of in my, from my dream. They said, but you have some feeling that he was invited in by her? And he said, well, I would just say by the impressions of the dream that the person was relaxed and that sort of thing. It didn't seem like any late night encounter which would cause any sort of suspicion at all and that the person entering the room, he didn't like try to make any explanations or anything like that. Just very easy going and making conversation immediately. They said, okay, so there was a relaxed atmosphere in the first stage of your dream between the man and the woman. And he said right, so do you recall any conversation between them? And he said no. They said, can you recall if it was cold in there or was it warm? Was there any reason for anybody, Was there any reason anybody was dressed in any particular form? Meaning if someone had a park on or someone had shorts on, I guess. He said, well, he was dressed in a short sleeve terry cloth shirt and I don't know what the temperature was that night, but I, but no, I don't know really. I would just assume that it was cool unless people would turn their heat down. They said most people would what? And he said most people would turn their heat down in the evening to save fuel. But I don't really know, not for my dream at all. Okay. They said in the evening, if the heat was turned down and it was cool, how would they stay warm? And he said, blankets. Okay. They said, in your dream. This conversation lasted how long? He said, I don't really know. I get an impression from the dream that it would be 20 minutes or so, but I don't really know. He said, is that all you see in the dream conversation? And he said, yeah, they're just chatting very amicably. He doesn't smile probably until he produces the object from behind his back and then he smiles at her. I just think from that there is a real change in his attitude. And that's when I decided to wake up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The word impression that he says so.

[James Petragallo]

Much, I get the impression. And they're going to pick up on that too and start talking about that. Yeah, the cops are going to start asking him. They're going to adopt his language and start saying, you keep saying impression. Let's talk about that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let's explore that.

[James Petragallo]

Let's explore impressions. They said, what was the focus of producing this weapon? Was he upset over something? And Steve said, no, he's very easygoing. I remember that he held it up to her like this and held it up to her about shoulder high to himself. And they said in his right hand? And Steve said, yeah, in his right hand. He just held it up and sort of holding it out in front of him a little bit for her to see. And he was smiling and made a few comments and smiled possibly at her reaction, I believe. And they say, do you recall what this conversation was? And he said, no, I can't read lips to distinguish, but you can tell sometimes what people are saying by looking at their mouths. But I couldn't see that. Well, his features, just his general shape, a few details where he was and showed his face. They said, where did he produce this weapon? And he said, I'm not sure, but in my dreams, as dreams went on, he was possibly picking it up with his hand. Possibly there was something next to him. But I thought that maybe he got it from behind his back or somewhere behind him. They said, can you recall what the instrument was?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

He says, okay, this is the hardest part. For some reason he held it right up in plain view. But I think it was rounded on one end in sort of a metallic dark type instrument, you know, a tire iron. Name a dark metallic instrument that's rounded on one end.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

I mean, Jesus christ.

[Jimmy Wissman]

About a 1 inch lug nut.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. What is tire iron? So, yeah, that's what he said. So they said, no, maybe, maybe, no maybe. Real machined, roughish. It wasn't too. Wasn't too heavy for him to handle. He handled it pretty easily. It was blunt and rather thick and tapered down toward one end and rounded on one side, rounded on one end and sort of tapered down, but not to a point or anything like that. But I really don't have any idea what it was. It was some sort of weight or counterbalance, like in a clock. A grandfather clock, pendulum. Yeah, yeah, something like that. So he said, now, you said you were startled over the attitude change in this man. You don't know what brought on the change. And he said, no, there seemed to be. Of course, I could tell they were talking, but it seems to me something from the inside of him, you know, it wasn't their conversation that produced it because it was rather sudden, and it was something that he seemed to enjoy. And they said, what did he enjoy? He said, well, he seemed to be quite in control of himself as his attitude changed, and he was quite confident in the situation. Not that he was threatened. Not that he was threatened that he. That would cause anger or cause any earlier sort of emotions, but just that it came from him. Basically, he started to change his attitude or that sort of thing. He's basically describing when Ted Bundy kidnaps a woman. He's all nice and smiling, and he gets her in the car and fucking hits her with a tire iron. So they said at this point, you awoke? And he said, right. He said, what'd you do? He said he laid in the bed, thought about the dream, and then tried to go back to sleep and not dream it, just to sleep. And then the second stage began. And they said, how did that begin? He said, I'm not real sure of the beginning. I know that a couple of times the same picture of him holding up a weapon and smiling flashed in and out as he was beating her. This was sort of like a flashback remembering before, but I think it began. See, that sort of confuses the transition a little bit for me, just where it began at. But I think it began where he was just beating her and he began to beat her and just started hitting her. He said, what do you recall about the beating? And at this point, by the way, he, like, gets down on the ground on his knees, like, demonstrating it? Yeah, yeah. He said just that he was swinging up high and coming down across his body until he swung it long and striking her, I believe, on the head below his knees. He said, do you recall how many times? And he said, I don't. I know. It was several. Seven, sort of in that area or something like that. They said, in the area of seven times? And he said, in the area of that? He said, maybe more, I'm not sure. Was the beating confined to her head? And he said, I dreamt that he was beating sort of maybe centering on the head at first, but maybe just at random. Possibly he was hitting, possibly spreading it around, rather than beating around her upper body, you know, shoulders and head. I think these were two repeated in the same places. And as I tried, I couldn't see her at all. Just that there was this form that he was beating the form and that sort of thing. Man. So, yeah, they say, is he saying anything at this point? And he says, I don't believe so. They said, was he smiling at this point? And he said, I can't see his face because his head's kind of down.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

They said, is there any indication in your dream of why the beating was administered? Yeah, give us a why anything. And he said, no, except for the fact that it seemed premeditated to me. Okay, that's a. Wow, that's a fascinating.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Word you just used.

[James Petragallo]

That's what I mean. He just really went hard at it. I guess if he came over smiling and had a tire iron behind his back that he beat her to death.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's hard to say it wasn't.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Because of the emotions and the attitude change and seem to originate with himself. It doesn't seem to have been solicited at all. So it wasn't like they had a conversation. He didn't like where it went and his attitude changed. He just seemed to be like, and now I got you where I want you type of deal. He said, do you know anything at all or did you get any impression from your dream as to what kind of background she had? Again, now they're using impression. That's what he uses. He said, no, I didn't, but I just thought she was not a crude person, but just kind of maybe somewhat educated, somewhat intelligent, at least high school and beyond, a little bit. They said, do you have any feelings at all toward this lady? And he said, no. Did he or did I?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Whoa.

[James Petragallo]

See, he caught them doing that. Yeah. And they said, in your dream, in your dream, your dream person that's watching this, do you feel anything? And he said, doesn't seem to give me an impression. It seems to be sort of a late night chat with him. She didn't seem to have any Problems with him being there. And he didn't have any problems with himself being there and speaking with her. And they had something to talk about. And it wasn't anything that was very confrontational in nature. During the beating, was she conscious? And he says, yes, she was on her hands and knees during the first part of the beating. And she didn't resist, she didn't struggle, and she was on her hands and knees and he was hitting her on the bed maybe two or three times. And she looked maybe like she might have been crying, but she wasn't struggling, resisting, accepting sort of.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is the most specific dream I've ever heard.

[James Petragallo]

Yes. And how many people, when they're being murdered are accepting of it? Except for a yogi who's making a fucking. You know what I'm saying? This is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Or a monk with a can of gas and fucking.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Some square making us statement.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, absolutely. So that accepting sort of is incredible because that's the exact words they use, accept death. When you do that, circle.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

So they said, accepting the fact that she was beaten in the head. And he said, accepting the fact that she was being beaten or. And the cop interrupts and said, did this disturb you at all in your dream? And he said, no, I just dreamed it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, it wasn't real, you guys.

[James Petragallo]

It's not real. It's in a dream. They woke up.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm getting to think I'm a suspect. I'm just telling you about my amazing dream.

[James Petragallo]

He still has no clue that they are suspicious. That they're suspicious. He thinks he's a helpful guy right now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

So they said, did she cry out at all? I don't believe so. He says, the cop says, now the first couple, two blows, you said that she was like on her hands and knees. And then this is when he gets down on the floor and he goes like on her hands and knees and sort of going down on her elbows. That was the impression I had, that he was willing, that he was just hitting away, I guess, up on somebody that wasn't moving. I don't have any idea why she wouldn't struggle. I don't know. I just had that impression. And he said, well, of course she didn't see, she didn't care to be. Perhaps she just couldn't struggle or something. I don't know. But he had an impression that she was just accepting getting beaten and killed. Very straight. Very fascinating. They said that it seemed to infuriate the man or calm him down or did it have any effect on him at all. How did he react? So this guy Steve says he just continued like it was all the way. All the way it should be. I had the impression that it was the way, you know, the way he expected it to be. I don't know, maybe I didn't see. Or maybe I didn't see the first blow. Maybe he stunned her enough so that she wouldn't be able to make much resistance, like groggy in pain or something. So maybe she was in the unconsciousness or something. But there seemed to be acceptance to me. She doesn't seem to be unconscious. Conscious and accept. And consciously accepting death. They said she's not unconscious, but yet she accepts the fact that she's being beaten.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a really interesting thing.

[James Petragallo]

And he says, yes, and it's a quite dangerous instrument too. It seems to me that it was quite thick and this instrument was quite thick, possibly heavy. They said, do you have an impression of his feelings at this point?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

What's he doing? Yeah, Steve said, for some reason, I get the impression that he wanted to get it over with and that he was, you know, beating her constantly, just beating. But he was beating her very hardly, you know, but very constantly, very quickly. They said, do you have an impression at all from your dream how well the man knew the woman? And Steve says, for how long or how? Well, the weird question. Yeah, he said, not really or not very much. But, you know, just the greeting again. I would say that they knew each other. How well, I don't know. So then they're asking them, they go through a few more things. And he says, well, there might have been a break when I woke up because I went to sleep. And when I woke up the first time, his emotions had changed and something definitely malevolent was on his mind. And when I went back to sleep, I began dreaming again. He just seemed to be in the process or just beginning to beat her or something like that. So the time he went out, that couple of minutes was the time in between the beating. He missed that part of the movie. He went out to the bathroom, came back and I missed someone's getting beaten.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That built to this amazing fight scene.

[James Petragallo]

Shit. Why'd I buy the 44 ounce soda? Why'd I do that? Didn't eat all that soda. Fuck. They said during the beating itself, you can just tell for a minute that it was just a very systematic rising and falling of the arm, you know, without any break. Wow. They said, how did your dream end? How did end? Yeah, he said it ended the last View was a close up view of this weapon coming down on her beat flesh. And on this particular blow, it was a hard blow and blood flew everywhere. And I look up from it that he, I took, I took it from that that he was done. And I woke up. I woke up and tried to shake it off. And your dream was. Yeah, that would be a disturbing dream to have.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Worst dream.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, I've had fucked up dreams flashing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Bad things happening, tragedies. And you wake up all fucked up and I can't go back to sleep. They said in your dream then there was no identification of how he exited or what he did after the final blow. And he said no, the noise, the rustling paper, it wasn't in my apartment. Possibly it was part of the dream. So they said when you heard the rustling, this is the point where you got out of bed. And he said right, I was dragging myself out of the dream, so to speak. You know. And. And they said, so it was kind of a half dream and half. And he said right. And they said you did in fact look around your living room. And he said, yeah. They said you cannot recall anything as to what you did. You said the final blow was a great deal of blood splattered all over. Where, where was it splattering on him? And he said I would imagine that he would. Must have got quite soaked I would think anyway, or somewhat sprayed a little bit because he had a white, fairly white or pale type terry cloth shirt on. And at least everywhere, and at least everywhere else in the room I saw blood flying onto that sort of the dark side of the room, I guess. Said was there anybody or anything else present in the room during this time? And he said, you asked that before, but I really don't know. I don't think so. Okay. Now they ask him, do you have any feelings that you may be able to control your dreams? And he said, control the events. And the cop said the events that are taking place in your mind. Like you said you had known that you could have done something. Like if you had known that, you said if you had known that your dream was real, you could have gone and stopped it. So he said, yes, I don't. Yes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No.

[James Petragallo]

Yes, no, you mean no, I don't know. But he said, yes, I don't. Yes. He said sometimes that's like when somebody goes, no. Yeah, no. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. He said, sometimes my dream, I'll change it to suit myself. I'll give it a happy ending if I wake up. And you know, I know this is going to have a happy ending and I'll make it. But no, I just dreamed it. It was just impressions. As a matter of fact, it was like something I couldn't get away from, so I had to wake up to shake it off. Yeah, Call a nightmare. They said, what was your position in this whole drama as this whole drama unfolded in your dream? And he said, just as you are. I could see him mostly. So they said, a third person? And he said, yes, and standing facing him and behind her, that sort of thing. So that's why I said, I never saw her face, because I'm seeing. I'm seeing over her shoulder kind of.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A deal from behind her.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah. They said, so you weren't actually the victim, but. And he said, no, no, he wasn't hitting me. They said, could you, as being the third person there, do you have any feelings that maybe the other two people were aware that you were there in the dream?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, yeah, that's weird.

[James Petragallo]

And he said, it's a possibility. You know, I can't say that they had any reactions that would exclude, you know, a third person because they were quite polite and all this sort of thing. They said, do you think that you may have been called to the situation in some manner that you showed up as a third party in your mind, like some psychic? I guess you were called in real weird. He said, I mean, it doesn't bother. Then they said, I mean, it doesn't bother you, or isn't there something there that. Don't you wonder why you should be in the middle of a dream about a murder?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, why you?

[James Petragallo]

Why you? Why is this in your head? And he said, well, when I first dreamed it, I didn't know it was a murder. I just thought it was a dream of like a soap opera type situation. And they said, yeah. They said, well, yes, but even in that situation the woman was getting hurt. And from what you explained to me in the detail you use, it's quite obvious that she was seriously hurt. And he says, yes. They said, okay, was that obvious to you? And he says, yes, they said that she may have been murdered. Could that have been. I'm just in your dream at all? And then I don't know how to phrase this. Steve jumps in and says, yes, as a matter of fact, when the policeman mentioned that there was a murder over here, I immediately thought of this dream where someone had been beaten to death. That was my impression. They said, how would you have been in any position in this dream to. It was a mess. Do you Yourself have been splashed with blood. Did you get splashed?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right. It's splashing all over the place. Did it catch up?

[James Petragallo]

How about you? He said, would I have. I'm not sure I understand the question. And they said, as a third party in this dream, okay, your position is close enough where you could make out the features and see exactly what's happening. So during this dream, do you dream that you are also being splashed with the young lady's blood as the man is striking her? How much are you in this dream exactly? Steve says, that's a good question.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sure is.

[James Petragallo]

Which is a real weird thing to say. Yeah, no shit it is. I know it's a good question.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's why I asked it.

[James Petragallo]

He said, the last strike, my impression was that blood flew everywhere. And I was very close, you know, it was like zooming in and this close to it. And, you know, that would have been my impression. They said that you would have gotten blood all over yourself. And he said, yes, that the blood would have gone everywhere. And he said, but I don't believe that I. That it did. That I did. It seems that I saw blood going this way and that way and it was coming back this way, but I don't recall any blood, you know, coming right back on me or being on me or anything like that. Interesting. They said, did you protect or intervene at all? And he says, no, not in the dream. And they said, is there any reason why? Yeah, you just asked a man why in a dream he didn't do something. I don't fucking know. Then a purple. Then a purple giraffe came out, like anything could happen in a fucking dream. And he said, is there a reason why? And he said, well, I was sort of like an observer, you know. He said, if I had been involved, I would have stopped. Stopped the whole situation immediately. They said, I'm a murder cuck. Yeah. I just sit and watch it jerk off in the corner. He says, yes, but even as an observer, it doesn't go against your principles to see a man beat a woman to the ground. And he says, yes, that's why I. And they said, did it make you feel powerless? And he said, yes. They said, did you. Were you, in fact afraid of the man who was beating her? And he said, no, no, no. I was just an observer. And it wasn't like anything I could control. And again, they said, do you think they knew that you were there? And he said, well, I don't know if they knew I was there, you know, the way you put it. But in My dream, I really don't know. Unless, okay, when the guy. The last part of the first stage, when he displays the weapon and smiles at her, I noticed that his eyes were sort of looking here and there, sort of ping ponging. Ish. And so that's a possibility. That. And they said that you could have been a part of this and maybe one, if not both of the parties knew that you were an observer. And he said, I'm still not sure if I follow you, but go ahead. That's what Steve said.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Are you accusing me of something?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, he's like, I'm not sure. For the first time, he's starting to fucking get things processing through his head here. They said, what I'm saying is, you said that this man's eyes ping ponged around and may have even fallen as you, on you, as you observed. And he said, yes. They said, okay, if that's the case, then in this dream, this man, he looked at you and may have seen you. Steve said, that's true. They said, was anything addressed to you at all? And he said, no, I didn't seem to have any part at all. Then they jumped to. Do you think that he has ever done this before or is this the first time for him?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Good question.

[James Petragallo]

Good question. Yeah. Basically they're just treating it like they're talking about him through a third part. Yeah. So he said, I don't know, he's sort of an older fella, maybe 30 or so. So he has some experience in life and he was sure, sure quick to take it out on her. So maybe he has done some. Had some experience doing it. It didn't look like it was any first time. You know, I'd never beat anybody like that. I've never beat anyone like that before or beat anybody except, you know, high school brawls or something like that. You know, I couldn't grab something and start wailing away. You know, he just said it all.

[Jimmy Wissman]

In high school, I was a badass then.

[James Petragallo]

I was fighting everybody. High school brawls, you know, constantly having riots. They said, do you think in Maine. They said, do you think it's releasing frustration? And he said, releasing frustrations, like just in a mad rage or something. To me, he was pretty. He's in control, you know, it's very systematic, methodical and very quickly beating. But he seems to in control to me and you know, he might be releasing a lot of rage, but still doesn't. But still controlling himself, you know, to make sure he doesn't miss or whatever. But, you know, he's probably got a lot of rage in him. I'd imagine that. He said, would he. Would he fear discovery about this? Yeah, now he's a profiler. He said, no, I'm not sure about that. I think he. He'd resist, but. But I think he kind of would welcome it, you know, I think most people would. And most people would want to get caught. He just said, so. The cop says, so he would unconsciously want to be caught. And Steve said, I think so. I think so. I kind of think so. Just my impressions of the guy. They said, would he do anything to maybe assist the man or whatever? And Steve said, well, I used to be a psych major, and I know that some people will do that subconsciously leave a trace, you know, want to get caught. So they said, did he? And he said, I have no idea. So then they said, would. What would he do for us? How would he help us? And Steve said, I don't know. I think he's a fairly smart guy. So he would probably. His subconscious was going to give him away. He would do something which would be somewhat conclusive, you know.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, he's a real dreamer.

[James Petragallo]

His. His subconscious would give him away. He just said after talking about dreaming the exact details of the murder. Wow. Then I like this question because they always ask somebody, if someone asks you, what do you think should happen to the person who did this? You're a suspect. That's what that means, he said. The cop then says, does he need jail help or mental help? Steve says, well, I don't know if jails help many people, but, you know, I don't know if it's mental help does much either these days because they get out and do it again, you know, they don't change an awful lot. It modifies their outward behavior or something, I guess. In my opinion, he needs spiritual help. And that's if I can be sure that he wasn't going to attack or so that's what I would let him try to do, because that changes a person inside. So he doesn't need jail or psychiatric help. He needs a priest or a pastor or something, which is exactly what someone who doesn't want to go to prison would say. I don't think they really need to go to prison so much.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I think a prayer or two will do it.

[James Petragallo]

I think that should just release them to the custody of the church, I think would really probably be the thing. They said, how could we find this person?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that's a funny question.

[James Petragallo]

Steve said, that's a good question. Yes, it is. That's why we asked it. Thank you. I love when he compliments them on the question. Thanks.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is he. Is he perhaps sitting directly in front of me?

[James Petragallo]

Is he perhaps in this building right now? Am I warmer?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tell me what, I'm getting colder.

[James Petragallo]

He said, that's a good question. Well, I wouldn't say that he would go too far, you know, I'd say he needs his roots and connections in familiar territory. So I'd say he'd change just enough to escape immediate notice that he wouldn't, you know, be too far away. Maybe go to the north suburbs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Too far away.

[James Petragallo]

Oh my God. Then they said, what are some suggestions in that what we can do to get this guy and help him get the. And get him the help he needs. There you go.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a good question.

[James Petragallo]

That's another way, you know, you're a suspect. Because if you're not, they go, how do we lock this guy up forever? So Steve said, well, maybe. I really don't know. Unless some people feel like, I think, because if they've really done something wrong, they feel like they've been seen. They said, what would he have done with his bloody clothing if his clothes were bloody? And he said, well, I think he's a smart enough guy to either put them in a bucket of bleach or, you know, cut them up and get rid of them or something like that. Not. He could have just said, get rid of them probably, I don't know. He said, put them in a bucket of bleach or cut them up. He had like, these are my ideas about to get rid of clothes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Make some paper mache out of it. I don't know.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yeah, totally. Fucking soak that shit. He said, where would he throw them? He said, well, I thought he would throw them in the city somewhere. You know, the city garbage pile or wherever somebody has a lot of trash and you know, just at random, you know, drive to Chicago, put it in a dumpster, dumpsters or whatever. I'm not. I just don't know if I'm in the guy's head enough. I'm just sort. I just sort of get a clear impressions of it. Impressions. Fucking wild word again. Now they say, how do you feel about him? And he said, well, better I feel about, you know, most people. He said, well, better I feel about, you know, than most people would. Which is not a sentence, by the way. That's why it's hard to read to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Him, because I've seen his inside. I don't know.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, he Said they need first of all their kind. They're the kind that serves God and he definitely needs it and he definitely should is responsible for the actions that he does. Even if the guy's mind is messed up through his environment or whatever else, still he has a certain amount of responsibility. And so I would think that the responsibilities, whether or not it would be a jail sentence, but also I'd like to see him become more Christian and get spiritual help. Looks like spiritual help he needs so the change inside in time to pay his debt for what he's responsible for. So again the same thing he said, do you think he'll do this again?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Great question.

[James Petragallo]

They said, well, he did it so well the first time. You know, it doesn't seem like some situation like that. If some situation came up and they said, you think it was his. You think first time was his first time? And they said, well, it's only what I saw is what Steve says. I don't know if it was just his first time or not. He's very. He probably just thought about it for a big long time enough to develop enough so that he could do it without much of a hitch. And they said, what's he doing now? Is he worried about getting caught?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What you doing now?

[James Petragallo]

Is he. Is he seeking out help? Yeah, yeah. Did he go back to work? Is he confiding in someone or is he planning to do it again? Of the cops God. Steve says, well, I'd say that he probably gone back to work and trying to stay nonchalant and pretty and is pretty mad about it inside and justifying it to himself but still eaten out about it. Eating out about it. I think up is the way you're. Wow, he's all eaten out about it. Oh, that's not bad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I guess they're just going down on.

[James Petragallo]

Every chick fucking you clam munching motherfucker you. As he might try to get. And he might try to get some help. It might not be immediately. It might be, you know, after he eats out at him for a while. Dude, stop saying that. Stop saying that. Eats away at him is the word you're looking for. Not eats out at him. Oh my God.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You're looking for a man with puss breath, sir.

[James Petragallo]

Pubes stuck in his teeth. Is he so, is he so Christian that he doesn't know that going down on a woman exists?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's all I got that as a fucking Frank.

[James Petragallo]

Wow. Wow. After he eats out at him for a while, he'll realize he's not going to be Able to handle it himself. There's no way I. This is the best, too. There's no way I. He can get rid of this feeling of guilt. That's not good.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's the biggest mistake in history of interrogation.

[James Petragallo]

That is so bad.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

There's no way I. That he can get rid of this feeling of guilt.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Even. Even Bundy didn't slip up there.

[James Petragallo]

No, no, no. This is bad. They said, so he's got to get some advice somewhere, you know. They said, okay, so to me, the way you describe him, he's not a bad guy. He's a family man. He works, which definitely means they think it's him. If they're like, he's not a bad guy. Right. Like you. So they said, does he have children? And Steve said, I don't know. And they go, well, I mean, through your. You know, through your head. And he goes. He laughs. Steve does. And he goes, well, you know, through my impressions. And they go through your impressions that you've had. Exactly. That's the word. And Steve says, well, my feelings. If I met the guy in the street, I would assume, you know, I could invite him over and his wife would come with him, you know, and I wouldn't have to ask him if he was married.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right. Because he eats out.

[James Petragallo]

Because he eats out. So, you know, he's. Somebody married him. They said, you would have no fear of the man on the street. You would think he would be like Joe Citizen. And Steve says, yeah, until he smiles. His smile is kind of sort of crooked, a little mean. It looks like he's had sort of a perverse streak in him at one at a time or two, you know. But that's. That's the impression that I get from him. If I was to meet him on the street. They say, would you want to help him? And Steve says, sure, yeah, I'd be glad to help him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I help a lot of people.

[James Petragallo]

I'll help. I'll give them directions. I'll, you know, I got a lot of help.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bad people living in my house.

[James Petragallo]

They said, would you reach out to him to help him? And Steve said, yeah, I. You know, I, you know, that's a lot of you. Knows. Yeah, I'd, you know, I'd, you know, if I knew where he lived, I would tell him, you know, I think I saw him commit murder, but, you know, just. Okay. They said, would you tell him that, or would you tell us first?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And he said, oh, I definitely tell you guys first. And the only person I try to help him because, you know, the person needs help and realizes it and wants it. This generally won't put his physical, well, being in jeopardy. Getting, you know, locked up and taken into custody and, you know, court trial and all that sort of thing. So physical and emotional well being, that's not a sentence. You just say verbal diarrhea is what that is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That is buzzwords for please help me.

[James Petragallo]

That. Yeah, that's not good. When people have a hard time cognitively forming sentences, it's usually because they're under in this situation because they're under a lot of stress from this and they can't get it out because they're so guilty. People usually have that thing going on, which is the interesting part here. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about chime. You know, we all spend more than we should during the holidays and that kind of thing. But we have something that will help you take control of your finances. You use a Chime checking account, which features like no monthly or maintenance fees. They have none of that. Yeah, a fee free overdraft of up to $200, which is incredible. Or you can get paid up to two days early if you have direct deposit. It's wonderful. You'll learn [e-mail] Smalltown Murder We've done it. We've all overdrafted by accident. The next thing you know, you're paying as much in fees, sometimes more in fees than you even drafted out for it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So sometimes something happens in the car and you got to get it fixed. And sometimes it's more than you expect.

[James Petragallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petragallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Or maybe. Yeah. He said, I've. I'd have to say that it was a lot more well known, more of a trusted situation than just a shopping center or something like that. I think he must have known her better, maybe quite a long relationship at work and trusted. Where he could walk into her apartment, you know, late in the morning, early morning, where she wouldn't really, you know, fear for her life. Okay. They said, how do you feel about this whole thing? Is the next question.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I'd love to fuck you up, man.

[James Petragallo]

This is fascinating, by the way. I hope everyone else is as fucking riveted by this as I am, because this is cat and mouse. He said, how do you feel about this whole thing? He said, how do I feel about this whole thing? Well, I guess the biggest thing for me to come to grips with is that there's a big possibility now, just through you guys interest in it, that this is actually something that is to begin with. What? Okay, that is something that I dreamed of as a situation that actually happened. And I sort of had a view and I sort of a view to this murder. And they said like a witness? And he said, like a witness, yes. So, yeah, yeah, I, right now I'm accepting that. And I guess it's kind of, I don't know what's next, you know. And they said, and are you actually happy with it? And he said, sure. Oh, yes, no problem. Like I can, I can talk about it. They said, how are you going to deal with the fact that you're in somebody's head. Like, you saw this guy, you're in. You're. Yeah, you're connected to this guy psychically, basically.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What if we catch him now, we put him in prison and every night you dream of that bad.

[James Petragallo]

You dream of prison.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Eight hours a night you're in prison.

[James Petragallo]

Fuck, that's awful. He said, I've had a habit of getting in people's head for a lot of years. And I mentioned I was a psych major when I first went to college and that's what I was interested in. So he's been getting in people's heads for years now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is his favorite.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, what the fuck, man. So they said, could he have a dual personality? Could he be two people? And this, I believe is giving him outs, right? This is him trying to go, oh, yeah, he's seriously mentally ill. Obviously, he's a sick man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

He said, well, it's a possibility. And they said, from what you saw in your dream, could he have been Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? And he said, as far as two complete splits, I don't know, but everybody has somewhat of a, you know. And the cop says split personality. And he says, split, yeah, not a complete split, but they're a little bit this way and a little bit that way. A little bit country, a little bit rock and roll. You know how people are. So he said, well, this is from one extreme to another. Yeah, this is a nice guy to beating a woman to death in her house. This is very different.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is paying your taxes and then murder.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, this isn't not liking brussel sprouts, maybe having one or two with some cheese on them, you know what I mean? They said in what you saw. He said, yeah, this would be a complete split that we're talking about. And I don't really know. So the cop said in what you saw from one minute talking and smiling to the girl and the next minute he's killing her? They said, yes, and conversational and nice and ask for cooperation and they're not irritated with each other at all. And the next minute it's sort of a perverse looking smile on his face and showing her a weapon. He said, what opinion do you have on that? And he said, I really don't know. I stated earlier that I thought possibly he was just a smooth liar and he was able to hide his true intentions, you know, while he talked to her or chatted or possibly, you know, he didn't have a complete split there. They said, who is he hiding from? You motherfuckers at the moment. Who's he hiding from? Well, I don't know how these things work. I guess they. Something traumatic in the past, they totally reject or hit out against something which they don't give any, any conscious recognition to. Something like that. I don't know how it works. I don't know how it works. Is funny. They said, this is a great one here. Could you give him a message for us?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Would you take a nap and tell.

[James Petragallo]

Him, wow, can you give him a message for us? They said, not knowing him, could we. Through you? And Steve says, you mean like. And the detective says, yes. Would you be able to contact him? And Steve says, I don't know, I have no idea. They said, I mean, do you find that hard to. And Steve says, my outlet is prayer. I would pray for him. And they said, do you think through prayer we could reach him? And Steve says, you can reach anybody through prayer.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Of course he did.

[James Petragallo]

Of course he did. He said no matter how far away they are, how distant, he said, let me ask you this. Do you think that you were destined that God chose you to be the go between for what happened and us? Were you chosen by God for this role? He says, I really don't know what my role is. Thinking about that just maybe now as an informer that I've been one that's been involved and anything I've been involved in, I've been involved a lot. So, you know, and they said like he, boom, boom, down. He does sound like snow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's saying he's making as much sense.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it's fucking. He's like Jim Carrey, Living Color version back in the day. Remember that? That's exactly what this guy is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fantastic.

[James Petragallo]

He said, do you feel involved in this? And he said, more so now, you know, just because of you guys interest in it, you've made it, you know, something that's consuming some time and energy. And so, you know, I'm willing to get involved in, you know, like for instance, if you should capture this guy or something like that, I'd be glad to talk to him. You know, I'd go out of my way to do it, driving downstate or whatever. Why the fuck would they want you to talk to him?

[Jimmy Wissman]

We'll interrogate him just fine. Just point him out.

[James Petragallo]

Who would offer that? It's weird. He said, if you knew who he was, would you come forward? And he said, yeah, sure. I'd either go forward to you or if I felt confident enough, I'd go forward to him and try to get him to go forward. Oh, they said, would he kill you?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a good question.

[James Petragallo]

And Steve said, well, if I came forward and talked to him and I make sure that somebody knew where I was going and knew who I was going to contact, I'll make the precautions. You don't kill me. Tell him if anything happens to me, there's documents in a lockbox that goes right to the New York Times. He said, make sure that he really had no choice. It would be that definite. It would definitely. It would definitely come to him with the idea that I'm going to have to go forward, you've got no choice. They said, why would you go that angle rather than come to us first?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, we've got guns, man.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it's kind of our job. This is what we do. He said, well, I quite. I guess possibly because it would be beneficial to him. It'd be more beneficial to him possibly to, you know, it would show a court, possibly that there is real true remorse and recognition of bad and a crime, that there was a crime and this sort of thing. And also it's probably better for him to do that than to have to be fighting and being dragged in and brought through the process and go ahead and okay, yes, I'll cooperate. You know, it's better to find him to try. So he's very concerned about this guy getting the fair shake in the system, which is again, extremely weird.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's a murderer on the street.

[James Petragallo]

So strange. They said, right now we're going to try and make up a composite on what you feel the description is. And he said, that's all right. I have Bible study tonight. And they go, pardon me, Fuck Bible study.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's a fucking murderer loose. And you know what he looks like.

[James Petragallo]

When you go to take a leak? Do a prayer if you want. He said, I've got a meeting at 9:30, but that's all right. It's something I don't have to be at. I should call my wife up. And so they have her. This is funny. They say, you want to call your wife? There's a phone right here. He says, can I use that? And he. And the cop says, sure, and grabs it and then goes, oh, this is a tape recorder. The cop thought the fucking tape recorder was a phone.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They put them in everything nowadays.

[James Petragallo]

Holy shit. So anyway, they're doing the drawing and they say, are you good with age later on? And he said, good at guessing age? And they said, yeah. And he said, somewhat, I guess. And the cop says, how old am I. And he goes, 38.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And he goes, how old is he? And the guy goes, 35, 34? And the guy goes, you're wrong, okay? I didn't say I was a fucking carnival.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He wasn't very good at this.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, I'm not Steve Martin from the Jerk here. I don't know, I can't get his way.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How far off am I?

[James Petragallo]

He said, they said, I like that. We establish. And then Steve said, he might have been older. That's true. And then they go on to about his eyes. They're making a composite. They said, was his hair wavy at all? And he said, kind of straight. Was it shaggy? No. Maybe thinned out a little. How long with it? Quite short. Shorter than mine, I think. Was it receding at all? It might have been a little receding right here on the top here. Very little. Not too much. Either that or sort of a high forehead. So they do the description, they do a whole composite and they send him on his merry way. Okay. Now two days later, they call him back in. Oh, on the 10th, they go, we had a couple of things we wanted to go over. You were very helpful, by the way. I mean, we are. The only reason we're even on this case still is because of you. So if you could come down and help us a little bit more, that'd be great.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Great.

[James Petragallo]

So he shows up on October 10, 1980 for a second interview. When he arrives, he's wearing a light colored terry cloth shirt with a light colored stripe on a dark colored sleeve. Why would you wear anything else in your closet? Wear a who farted T shirt. It's. Who cares? I'm with stupid. Anything you want. This is not okay. No, you fucking idiot. So he's taken to a conference room where obviously they record it. It's 10pm on October 10, 1980. And this is also quite strategic too, because he's a guy who goes to bed at 10:00.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, okay.

[James Petragallo]

So they bring him in, they do that. And if you're, if someone's a late, like if they wanted to interrogate me, they'd say to be there at seven in the morning because they know they would be uncomfortable with that because I'm not awake. So this guy, they're gonna call him in at 10, you, they'd get you there at 10. Yeah, for sure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm a sleepy bitch.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. So anyway, they get him sitting down and he says, I sort of see it like that she expected him, you know, she would expect that he would be problem. And they Said, but unhappy about the way he came in. And Steve said, maybe not even that. I'm not sure I really. Okay. My impression is I'd say, no, she isn't unhappy that he'd be there. You know, maybe he came by to pick something up or something, I don't know. They said, like, what would he have picked up? And Steve said, I don't know, maybe he was selling Amway or something. Guess what? It keeps going.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Only male Avon guy.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, he's. You know what, he's got a real busy day at dropping off Amway shit. They said, well, how would you, how would you react if somebody rang your doorbell? And Steve says, well, you know, if it's. Somebody came by and said that I've got to have this stuff. I've got to fill this order by tomorrow morning. Can I come by? Okay, come on in. And they said at 1 in the morning? And he said, I wouldn't mind.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really. Got your Kirby. Come on in.

[James Petragallo]

They said, what if he appeared in your apartment? And he said, if he appeared in my apartment, you know, he might be tossed out. Yeah, if he fucking just fabricated from nowhere. Yeah, just that would be. Might be tossed out. I'd call Ghostbusters at that point, probably. If you just materialized before my eyes. They say, did you say you are. You sell Amway? And he said, yeah, what he fucking baby, he's an Amway salesman. You sell Amway? Yes, I do, as a matter of.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Fact, all the time.

[James Petragallo]

I do it all the time. If you don't know, if you're very young. Amway was a multi level marketing scheme that I think it might still exist, but it was the biggest thing in the world in the 70s. And they spread it through churches. That's how they did it. So that was a big deal. So he said, yeah, I'm not trying to draw up any business. And he said, it's good, it's good. He says, you get in to save money too. It's great. He's trying to drum up business. So anyway, they talk about Amway and God for a minute that we don't need to go over. And then Steve says, there's a line of reasoning Wednesday night, that was when he was there the first time. It's on tape, but going into it, and I really feel like I got set up thinking about it too. This line of reasoning. Line of reasoning concerning the psychology of this person and really questioning that. I really try to get into this guy's mind and decide what he would be doing next and how Is he feeling and that sort of thing, Just thinking this over. I get the impression later on that possibly your. And he laughs. Trying to put me into this guy's mind with the idea that I might be in this guy's mind, you know, that I could be able to tell you guys what he would be doing next, what he'd be feeling like because there's some sort of split personality in my life or something like that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You guys suspect me.

[James Petragallo]

Might as well just say I'm a suspect, right, he said. And so that's, you know, made me real suspicious. And I'm wondering if maybe I shouldn't request counsel. What would you suggest? Your estate's. Because now the assistant state's attorney's here. And he goes, you're a state's attorney, and I'm sure you want this case to go well, but. And the state's attorney says, that's. That would be entirely your decision. And he says, yes. And then the state's attorney says, you may be able to. If you have the ability to have this dream, you may be able to give us something in this guy's mind. It's my understanding that you have received or in your own background, you've received some kind of psychological training and study. You have studied a little bit. And he said, yeah, yeah. And so the attorney says, with your knowledge and your ability to have this dream, you may be able to give us something out of this guy's mind. And obviously, if you could have this dream, there's some kind of gift or talent or something.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You're amazing.

[James Petragallo]

You're incred. You're psychic, bro. And Steve says, I don't know what it is, but. And the assistant attorney says, right, you know, I don't know what it is, but it is unusual. And there are some circumstances here which give credence to the facts that you have already told these officers. That's why we're here now. And then a cop says, well, how do you feel about that? Obviously, to me, I consider you my best source of information. He says to Steve, wow. Steve says, yeah, well, I just want to cooperate, you know, and I want to just kind of. I feel that perhaps I, you know, I'm available and Double talk, double talk, they said, to see what's on his mind. And he said, yeah, I wouldn't say on his mind what's on my mind. I want you to know if there's anything I can say that would help and if there's any sort of psychological rationing or reasoning that I can Discern, you know, I'll help with. I'll throw it out there, but. And they said, can you see how this helps us?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, you get it, right?

[James Petragallo]

You get it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You've got the information.

[James Petragallo]

You got it all. You're our best source of information. He says, yeah, I can see, you know, how it can help you, too. But I also know that, you know, well, I have no indication that I have any sort of schizophrenic personality. Huh? I have no indication that I have any sort of schizophrenic personality. And if you guys start thinking that, well, this is so weird, we'll just stick this guy with it, you know, he just seems to be wrapping up the case for us right here. And they said, we know you're familiar in school with psychology. They said, you did take it. You know, it's in your background. And he said, yeah. They said, well, what about psychics? He said, there has to be. There have been some psychics, right? And he said, yeah. And they said, well, they had to start sometime. There had to be a first time for them. All right? And he said, yeah. He said, well, if you are, in fact, one. If you are. And Steve says, I reject that, but go ahead.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm not a psychic.

[James Petragallo]

Don't say, I'm psychic.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Dream.

[James Petragallo]

He said, okay, you know, if this is your dream, which you're saying it is your dream, then you're the closest person we have to come in contact with this guy and try to find him. And he says, yeah. And they said, no one else has dreamt about it. And he said, yeah, they said, no one else has dreamt about it except you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You're our guy.

[James Petragallo]

And he says, I thought about that, and you mentioned that the other night. Could we try to get a message to this guy through you? And they all, yeah, yeah. And he says, if you thinking. If you. If you're thinking about that yesterday, I didn't know if you meant. But can he speak to you, Steve, or do you have a split personality and that maybe you can reach, or do you have a psychic ability that you can reach this guy with? So you're calling me a psychic or a schizophrenic. Which one were you calling me?

[Jimmy Wissman]

You call me a murderer or the best thing that you've got right now?

[James Petragallo]

Totally. And then the cop says, it's scary. I'll tell you, it's scary. We've never dealt with anything like this before. I mean, this isn't. It's not a common practice. It's unheard of. You know, it's not unheard of it happened, but it does. Doesn't happen every day. And Steve says, yeah, it doesn't happen every day. They said, you're the only thing we have to, you know, think about this guy or maybe get through to him or to reach out to him, you know. And he goes, and I wanted to ask you, too, Steve says, what sort of message would you like to get to this guy? I was thinking the other day that I would try, you know, sort of. I had an impression that maybe I could reach this fella, but, you know, what kind of message would you like me to get to him?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tell him to turn himself in right this second?

[James Petragallo]

Now, he's not saying I can't reach him. He's going, if I can, what do you want me to say? And the cop says, I think I tried to explain it to you Wednesday when we were talking. The message I'd like to give him is, first of all, a message would be. A message would help, okay, in a couple different ways. Helping him not to do it again and helping him to come forward. Because he's got to be eaten up inside with guilt, not eaten out. I can't see how anybody could do that, not feel responsible for their actions, okay? No matter what was in his mind, he's got to realize that he's responsible and he's got to be held responsible. And the only way that he can help himself is to show remorse for what he's done. And. And Steve says, and help rather than to hide, you know?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

And they said, what kind of statement would it take from us to you to get this guy to come to us? What do you think you could pass, or what would you think you could pass on to this. To this person to have him come in and not feel that he'd be. He'll be harmed and that he's going to be okay? Steve says, well, I don't know, just. I would try to change his mind, you know, about his situation and tell him he needs help, okay? He said, maybe I'm just trying to put it into his mind or pray that God will put it into his mind, but that he would call you guys up, maybe even for, you know, something unrelated, you know, he would sort of get the vibes or whatever, do a little feel out the vibes. So they said, after talking to us, don't you think that he could feel comfortable with us? And Steve says, shh. I don't know.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You guys are so great.

[James Petragallo]

But yeah, I don't Know, though, he's. They said, what would you think, though? I mean, after. Just after the meeting we've had, the two meetings we've had, or the three short things is one short one, you know, or whatever, however you want to put it. Steve says, yeah, well, to be honest with you, I kind of wonder at your motives sometimes, you know, in your line of questioning.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm trying to evade you guys and you're, you're.

[James Petragallo]

You're getting suspicious. So then he said. Steve said. So he. So he might feel that way, too. And they said, how do you mean? He said, well, I keep getting, you know, just trying to think along with you guys as you're talking, but your line of questioning still might be trying to implicate me. Yes, stupid. It took you two days and ten fucking hours and you finally figured it out. And he said, you know, I'm trying.

[Jimmy Wissman]

To throw you off my trail. What are you doing?

[James Petragallo]

He said, you know, as far as having a split personality or something. And they said, well, what do you think, though? I mean, after. Just after the meeting we've had, you know, all of that. What do you think here? And he said, they said, they jump in. The assistant state's attorney said, you know, I would like to just, you know, go back, if we could, to the dream and take it apart bit by bit. He said, maybe there's something that we can do, something we can know and put A to B together and it'll lead us to see, you know, another or something like that. But Steve says, yeah, right, yeah, that's what I hope to be able to do, you know, by coming forward, you know, cooperating with you. And the attorney says, right, you know, that's what we understand, but we don't expect you to say, how do you know these things? Because I don't think, you know, you say you've had premonitions in the past. You say if you have some type of. I hate to use the word power or ESP or anything, but whatever it is, there's something there. Steve says, yeah. And the attorney says, you know, and if it could lead us to something, that's what we're looking for. And so the cop then says, so should we start from the beginning, then? And Steve says, I'd like to ask a question. And they said, go ahead, sure. Steve says, do you mind if I talk to. With a counselor at school or something like that? That's not an attorney, a counselor at school. He said, an older person, more wise because of doctrine and all that good stuff. Just to get his impressions on his thoughts on this, on the whole issue. Do you mind if I reveal this to him? And the attorney says, oh, I think in this case here. And the cop says, reveal the fact that you had a dream. And he says, yeah, because you asked me not to talk about it. And they said, well, you've told people. And he says, I've told people. Right, but I want to clear it with you two. But, okay, it doesn't make any difference then I might. There's this guy in our chapel. I want to talk to him and get his impressions. So they say, sure, sure. And he says, okay. And then the cop says, you wouldn't have gone home. And he says, right, right. The attorney says, right, right. You know, you wouldn't be walking out of here shortly or whatever. But again, obviously, in a case like this, time is of the essence. If there's someone out there walking around like this, and from what you've told us so far, what is to stop this individual from doing the same thing again?

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a bad guy. And you want to prolong how long he's out there.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. How long are you going to talk to this guy? He said, so I don't know when you intend on talking to your counselor or whoever you wish to talk to, but I would ask you this, you know, would you be willing to do certain things that would give. That would give to us a sample of your blood? And he said, sure. He said, a sample of your saliva and a sample of your hair. See, because that is what we know. I don't know what to tell you what we know, because the way we do it. Well, someone will say, well, you know, he knows all these things because the police told him that. And he said, you know, they said. The attorney said, you see, I can't. I don't want to affect your credibility. So you give me all these tests, we clear you, and then you're Johnny psychic, and we can go from there. And then they said, steve, I'm gonna say my piece here. The cop says. And Steve says, all right, okay. They said, the person needs help, okay? This cop says, you've cooperated with us as much as you can. And as much as you say, you know, okay, I'd like to think that you were the person that needs. I'd like to think that you were the person that needs this help, okay? My partner and I and everyone else is convinced that you killed this young lady, okay? I'd be more than happy to give you any help that I can give You. The evidence that you gave us tonight will convict you. And Steve says, you're kidding. What evidence are you talking about? You know, he said, I'm requesting on tape that I request Chaplain Strauss. That doesn't matter.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Doesn't matter.

[James Petragallo]

You can request fucking Bugs Bunny. You can request Oprah. You can request anybody you want. That doesn't mean anything. And the cop says, we're not asking you any questions. The other cop says, we're not asking you anything. We're telling you what we know. They do this a lot, too. Like, you don't need a lawyer because I'm not asking you anything. I'm telling you. And then that'll delay it, and the guy might have a statement that'll come out. Yeah. So he says, we're not asking you anything. We're telling you. And then the other guy goes, not asking you any questions. And the other guy says, we're just telling you what you know, what we know. Okay? And the other guy, they're like the Beastie Boys trading off. They're like Raekwon and Ghostface. He says, now just sit there and shut up. Nobody's asking you any questions. In one minute. This fucking flipped hard, boy, did he got to sit there and shut up. He says, if you would just let me say my piece. Okay. This is the cop. The evidence that you gave us tonight will convict you if we have to come back to get you with an arrest warrant. The judge will. The judge will now see that you do not request any help. Steve says, you're barking up the wrong tree. Analyze the evidence. Analyze your evidence first. And the cop goes, what is that? What is that? And he says, your blood, a hair, saliva. And the cop goes, right. We're convinced it will convict you. And he says, analyze it first. Steve says, cop says, it will be analyzed. And when we arrest you with this evidence, it's going to come back to you. And then it's going to come back and show everybody that you don't want any help and that you don't want any help. We're more than happy to give you help. More than happy. I know right now. And Steve interrupts and says, I'd like to have Chaplain Strauss here. The cop just ignores him and says, you sit here. You're going to be arrested for this. I'm going to go down the points. You want to analyze the evidence. And Steve says, sir, I request my counselor be here. Okay? Now that is closer to requesting for an attorney.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Counselor and an attorney are the same thing sometimes.

[James Petragallo]

And the cop Says, don't say anything because I don't want to hear anything. I don't want to hear your answer. I don't want to hear you say anything. We're not asking you questions. That's how they're trying to get around that. And so now Steve says, will you give me my legal rights, please?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay, now it's a problem.

[James Petragallo]

Now it's. Now it's an attorney. When he says that, he said, I request a counsel. Now that's an attorney. So they said, fine, fine. And then the cop says, when you want to say something, you just tell us and we'll get a counselor for you. I don't want to hear nothing from you. You want evidence? You want evidence? What is that? That's a boot. You don't. Don't say anything. Just look. That's a boot. This is a living room setting. This girl is on her hands and knees. This is where she was being beaten about the head with a blunt object. They're saying they have a boot imprint of, like, a heel and a boot. So Steve says, can I ask you. And he just cuts him off and says, I'm going to show you a blunt object. This is a blunt object. Let me get the picture out. What does this mean, this passiveness in her fingers? Is she wearing anything? Seven blows to the head. Where did I hear that? Maybe one or two glanced off the shoulders. Where did I hear that? He nailed that shit. He just didn't say anything about the strangulation. He said, well, that's pretty. Let's count them. That's. That once was a pretty girl. Okay, descriptions. What's a description we have on the offender? Let's. Let's see a composite picture. Does this look like anybody in this room? Meaning it looks like. Yeah, which the. Steve then says, hey, some guy drew that. I told him it wasn't what I. And then they interrupt him and says, yeah, well, the guy drew it who has a shirt that matches the description. You told us you're wearing it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why are you wearing that?

[James Petragallo]

Steve then says, I wonder if you guys will be apologizing once we analyze that little bit of information I gave you tonight. And they say, steve, we won't be apologizing. Steve, let me tell you what we're going to be doing. And Steve says, if I, for a minute thought that I was the guy, I would walk right in and say, hey, I wish to be prosecuted. Hey, if I thought I committed this. What are you keeping. Why are you. And then he says, why are you keeping me from the door. He tried to walk out, and they block his ass.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petragallo]

He goes, now why are you keeping me from the door? And the cop says, I want to tell you. I want to tell you why she died. She died with you beating her because she was a religious person. She died. You said in your tape that she died passive. You didn't know why. She offered no resistance. Her fingers are held with her thumb to her index finger in both hands, making little O's. She turned to God. And then the other cop says, this is her religious prayer to God in her temple that she goes to. She turned to God. The reason she wasn't screaming or fighting is because she was doing breathing exercises, preparing herself for death for a religious person.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That thing?

[James Petragallo]

Yes, that fucking.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That meditating thing. As she's being strangled.

[James Petragallo]

As she's being strangled. They said that she wasn't screaming or fighting because she was doing breathing exercises. Preparing herself for her death for a religious person. Preparing herself for death while being killed from somewhat supposedly, another religious person. Steve says, I never met this girl before. And he says, maybe you've never met Steve.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You met her once.

[James Petragallo]

Steve said, you have to live with it. You have to. And he says, I don't have to live with anything, gentlemen. Steve says, oh, hey, now. They said, yes, you do. You cannot live with this, Steve. It's going to eat your heart out. That's the correct way to say eating out. There we go, he says. Steve says, I don't have to. It's not eating my heart out at all. I have absolutely. I'm innocent, guys, you know, I want to see the cat, counselor. Then they say, the chances of you dreaming this dream. And he says, hey, I don't know what the chances are. Steve says. The cop then says, this is not a dream. This is a murder. This is no dream to a girl. She's dead. Then they said, you walk out this door and we come back and arrest you. You know what? You'll get the electric chair. Do you know that? And Steve says, if that's what I deserve, that's fine. And they say, you deserve it. And he says, if I deserve it, I'll take it. You know. And they said, you deserve it for what you did. And he said, I didn't do. Okay, okay. They said, you did it. And you told us. And you told us how it happened. You told us in time you got out of bed. Your wife didn't know. You got out of bed. You went next door. You said you were the Amway salesman. You pushed the door open. And he said, at one o'clock in the morning.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They said, you just told us.

[James Petragallo]

You just told us. Yeah, they said you opened the door. I'm not saying it was one in the morning. You said it was one in the morning. And they said, no. The officer said, one in the morning. Steve said. And then the cop says, I didn't say one, you did. And then he says, they told me at the door. And the cop says, now would you let me speak? He just cuts it off. They're bickering.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now you said this. No, you said that.

[James Petragallo]

No, you said no. So the cop says, you went in the apartment. That's right, you went in the apartment under the pretense you talked for some reason. You took this blunt instrument which you had with you behind your back. You brought it in, I don't know. And you killed her and you beat her. And while she was going down, she was praying and you said, I don't know why. She didn't make any resistance. She was passive. She was praying to God. Something you should be doing right now. You should be praying to God because God is going to condemn you for taking this girl's life. Her parents are suffering. Her whole family's suffering. This village is suffering. Your wife will suffer. You're out of order. I'm out of order.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Everybody's out of order.

[James Petragallo]

He said, and you're suffering and you're suffering regardless of what you say. Steve said, I'm embarrassed and I'm, you know, looked like I'm some kind of nut. He said, I'm embarrassed. And they say, yeah, I'd be embarrassed too if I did what you did. They said, they said you only discovered because you called us. You told us you did it in the third person. That's where you discovered. That's why you're discovered. If you called us, if you wouldn't have called us, we would have not known where to go. You came forward to us. You want God to give you penance. You want to be redeemed by him and the guy. Steve says, ha, that's pretty non biblical. And the detective says, I'm not quoting anything from the Bible, okay? And Steve says, well, I've had quite an experience today. Yeah, they're telling you to go to the electric chair. Cop says, you've had quite an. You've been quite an experience. You're going to get the electric chair. The judge is going to see you have no remorse in your soul. It's embarrassing what you did. It's a vicious crime but it's embarrassing. Your wife will be embarrassed. Your chaplain will be embarrassed because you're in his place at this church. It's very embarrassing. Very embarrassing. And then they said, could you have been sleepwalking? Do you sleepwalk?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And he said, sleepwalk? Well, I've never sleepwalked in my whole life that I know of. And they said, that you know of. Could it be sleepwalk? It happens. I'm asking you, could you sleepwalk? Steve says, I'm not going to admit to anything. I'll say, no, I couldn't have sleepwalked. And they said, fine. And then Steve said, good grief. And then he walked by Snoopy laying on top of a doghouse.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Red Baron, airplane. Is he gonna get his counselor or not? They gotta stop this now.

[James Petragallo]

They said, a very attractive girl. A very attractive girl. You wanted to talk to her. Okay? You went over there, whatever time it was one o'clock. I never said one. You told me one. Steve says, my wife. And he just says, steve, I cannot understand. Okay, you yourself told me, no matter how much of a shell you wanted to go into, um, and then he says, you were attracted to her. Okay? You liked her. You saw her and you wanted her. You went over there, you got in the apartment, you spoke with her, you talked about sex. You found out there was going to be no sex willingly, so you beat her to death. And you beat her and you struck her. And that's why she was killed. And that's why she was killed, because she would not give you sex. I know that. You know in your own mind, Steve. You can tell me everything you want. You can think you're first person, second person, third person. I have been a policeman for 12 and a half years. I've dealt with all kinds. And you wanted sex from her. She did not give it to you willingly, so you attacked her. That's why you killed her, because you became enraged. Steve says, I request a counselor.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. And he says, okay, this interview's over. And then he pushes Scott back down in his seat and he says, sit down. You're not through yet. You don't get to leave. A counselor will come here. So there's obviously a lot of parallels between the two crimes. The bloody tire iron in the bushes, the that. These several striking things of the dream of, you know, the beatings, the blunt force blood spattered all around the victim and attacker. Blood was found spattered around the victim at the actual crime scene. He knew that she was passively accepting being beaten to death and not fighting back. The hand signals. The setting of the dream attack had some correlation to the actual crime scene. Although there were also differences in the defendant's account or later on he'll be the defendant of his dream. The attack occurred in what appeared to be a living room setting. Although there was no couch in the room. He said there might have been a stereo around or something like that. Meanwhile, it's a studio apartment. So they said there's a bed and all that kind of shit there. Yeah, they said the actual victim was found in the main room of her studio which contained a stereo but no couch. The description of the dream assailant bore some resemblance to the defendant himself. The funny thing is, usually when people make up a description, they usually look like the guy drawing it. They usually describe the person sitting across from him, which is funny. They can't help it. At the time of his first tape recorded statement, he had short blonde hair, light complexion, wearing a short sleeve knit shirt with terry cloth stripes on his sleeves. However, the dream assailant was described as being between 5 foot 5 and 5 foot 7 inches in his 30s. While the defendant here is about 6ft tall and 26. So yeah, that's that. And then he has a list what he did in the identicate versus him as far as. Yeah, the identicant. Inset eyes. He has normal eyes. He said clean shaven. The identicate, you know, his fucking drawing. He has a mustache. Freckled. He doesn't have freckles. No glasses. He has dark military glasses. Large mouth. He has a regular mouth. Straight smile. He has a regular smile. Straight hair. My bangs. Hang in my face. Square chin. Regular or narrow chin on this guy here. So there we go. Yeah. So then they, they do the blood and saliva test. The blood results come back. The physical evidence found the crime scene and blood and hair standards taking from both the defendant and the victim. Vaginal fluid taken from the victim showed type O, ABO blood type only. This was consistent with mixing of blood fluid from the victim who had O blood and someone who is a AB blood but non secretor. Meaning that the blood typing is not secreted into his other bodily fluids. However, 20% of the population are also non secretors. And the evidence was also consistent with the mixing of the victim's fluids with that of a secretor with type O blood. So it's kind of inconclusive here. However, because the victim's blood standard tested positive for the presence of both gamma factors, the expert said the vaginal fluid sample would also test positive for both Factors regardless of the identity of the assailant. Later, the state hair expert, though, concludes that several hairs on the head and pubic hairs found in the apartment were consistent with the defendant's hairs with Scott's hair. The study referred to in the testimony found that only 1 in 4,500 people would have been consistent have consistent head hairs when the hairs were tested for comparison of 40 different characteristics. And only one in 800 people would have consistent pubic hairs. Okay. Now he's. This takes. So they go a month and then they finally arrest him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Steve is under arrest now?

[James Petragallo]

Yes. Oh, by the way, they also testified that several head hair fragments and one pubic hair found in the apartment had originated from a black person. And that couldn't be from either one of them. Cause he's blonde and she's not black either. So he's arrested. Now, the police officer, while arresting him said that, quote, he said the devil had given him this dream at a time his strength was down. That's what Steve told him. Yeah, he said that. He asked me if I thought some people could have insight into the future. And I said, not in your case, Steve. Fucking hilarious. Holy shit. That's really fucking funny. So earlier in the conversation, Steve asked the cop to answer a hypothetical question. The cop said, he asked me what would happen if someone came in and confessed to the murder of Karen Phillips. Would I be released today? And the guy told him that any confession would be checked against the facts that they had. So it would probably take a minute. Now, bail. Okay, his bail is $450,000. But a church where they used to worship in Maine sent a letter to 12,000 independent churches in the US and Canada to ask for prayers and support from other followers of their fundamentalist, non denominational faith. The Tiny Grace Fellowship assembly in Union sent about $800 to help his family. About $50,000 in donations and loans has been collected for Lyn Scott's defense. In Japan, an old Navy buddy of Lynn Scott's had put out a prayer request, a prayer request through the Worldwide Christian Servicemen Centers. And he said Cook county hasn't got the best reputation for justice. We can't see that there's any evidence to keep Scott in jail. They raise his fucking bail and he's out. The churches raise his bail so he doesn't go on trial till 1982.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

For murder, rape, et cetera. The state destroyed the only vaginal swab they had. Yeah. During the testing. After a month here, the state filed an answer which listed the existence of the Vaginal swab that was taken from the victim. However, the same day the state filed its answer to him. Looking for evidence without notice, they took the vaginal swab to Scotland Yard Metropolitan Police Forensic Laboratory in London, England. Taking it overseas at Scotland Yard, they performed or ordered a destructive test of the vaginal swab. So one that would destroy it. Prior to taking the vaginal swab to England, they performed numerous tests on the swab at the Illinois Crime Laboratory. The tests in Illinois were conducted to determine the presence of semen and ABO type blood blood type from the mixed secretions on the vaginal swab. At the time the tests were performed, they knew from a specimen of the victim's blood that she had type O blood with gamma markers plus 1, plus 2 and plus 10. And that this guy here, Scott, is a or Steve, is a defendant with a non secretor with type AB blood and gamma markers minus 1, minus 2 and plus 10. So they take it there. That all happens. The destructive test at Scotland Yard revealed gamma markers plus 1 and plus 2 were present in the mixed secretions in the vaginal swab. The test for gamma marker 10 was inconclusive since gamma markers plus 1 and plus 2 mask any other combination of gamma markers. So if his were in there, it wouldn't be found. And the victim's blood contained gamma markers plus 1 and plus 2. The test that was done was pretty much meaningless. Meaningless.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Ouch.

[James Petragallo]

Unless you have dn Fucking A. It wouldn't have mattered. And they were just going on blood tests. It also seems there they said at trial the. The. The state put on its case in chief. And they made a motion to dismiss the indictment because of the state's destruction of the vaginal swab. And it was denied, obviously. So in openings, the prosecutor said Steven Linscott not only described how a young lady had died in a living room setting, how she was first on her hands and knees and then fell to the floor. He demonstrated with up and down, full extension of the right hand what he saw the man do. That's consistent with high velocity blood stains found on her body and apartment. Suffice it to say in those tapes he supplied information only the killer would and could know. And he elaborated in detail. The defense attorney said he's a deeply religious man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He couldn't do this.

[James Petragallo]

He's married to the daughter of a missionary family. His decision to reveal his dreams was a difficult one. But he made it because he believed he was. It was his civil and more and moral duty. He said that. They said the Prosecution's test of hair, blood and semen samples from the body are not conclusive. All you have is this dream. So they said that the state's at expert witness regarding the vaginal swab was at times either plainly doubtful or confusing. Here it is. Question. What if anything do you regard did you do with regard to that item? Yes, I checked the swab for the presence of semen. Question. And what results did you receive? Vaginal swab positive for seminal material. They said in any. And could you detect any ABO blood type from the seminal material? Yes, it was abo. It was ABO group blood group. Oh. They said if this man was able to detect ABO blood type from the seminal material and the depositor of the seminal material must have been a secretor, even though they already said Steve wasn't a secretor. Moreover, if this testimony is to be taken as true, then the seminal material could not have been from Steve because he's a non secretor and has type AB blood rather than O. So what do you think of that hair expert? They never say match, they say consistent because there is no way to match hair unless it's DNA. So that the defense hair expert, he also. He didn't did not testify that the hairs matched or that they were identical. He testified that the hairs that were found either did not come from the defendant or had too few characteristics displayed for him to conclude they matched or did not match his hairs. However, with respect to whether the pubic hairs that were found were the defendant's pubic hairs, he said, they said in view. This is the question. In view of the testing you've described with respect to the pubic hairs, based on your observations and findings and analysis, do you have an opinion based on reasonable degree of scientific certainty as to whether or not the pubic hair taken is the is comes from Stephen. And he said yes, I do. What's your opinion? He says, within a reasonable degree of certainty, I believe the hair from the combings did not come from the same source as the hair from the suspect. Okay. The prosecution asked this guy in cross if he was aware of a study that found all these 1 in 4,500 people would have consistent hairs. And they went back and forth in closings. Okay. The prosecutor says, he says you must ask yourself where the. Where is the link? The link is the semen matching the non secretor, Mr. Lynn Scott is a non secretor gross. The the like hairs more than one, more than two, more than three. And you heard the probabilities from his own expert Pubic hairs and the woman's crotch matching, Mr. Linskin, because they go into that. He said, I would suggest to you, ladies and gentlemen, if I said there were two American flags right there, and they were both 12 by 8, and they both had the same number of stars and they both had the same number of stripes and they had the same coloring, would you sit there and say, well, there's nothing dissimilar about those two. They are identical. But not a scientist. A scientist will state that every aspect that I examined were consistent. And what does that mean? There was nothing different. And to a layman, that means identical as the two American flags. But that's not science, though, because they look alike to you at a glance, he said. Then I asked him, meaning the defense expert, if he was aware of the chief forensic scientist for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Mr. Gaudet. And the man says, yes, of course. And he is leading the leading man in his field. And I asked him, are you familiar with the figure formula by which this man and those by this man and those were, that any of the two head hairs match from two separate individuals? It occurs at a one out of every 4,500 times. And so he goes on to that. It's too much. So the verdict comes in, the jury is out. What do you do? They deliberate nine and a half hours over two days.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay? That's a good amount of time.

[James Petragallo]

They have some basic, you know, boilerplate hair evidence, and this dream is pretty much all they have. And they're saying the blood matches the secretor thing, so the dreams more damning than the science than anything. They find him guilty, okay, of murder, rape, really, everything. Okay? He is found guilty. Now, this is met by a courtroom throwing things, spitting at and trying to attack the prosecutors.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yes.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, the Bible people went crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, of course they did.

[James Petragallo]

They don't get their way. They do not take it on the fucking chin at all.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They take an L way worse than the Japanese.

[James Petragallo]

We're the nicest people in the world unless we don't get what we want. And then it's, yeah, one of those. So as the courtroom emptied, they shouted at the prosecutors and called them liars and all of that sort of thing. A member of the Bible school's board of directors said the verdict results from the meeting of the naivete of Steve and the jury believing this concocted story. To us, it's a miscarriage of justice. The defense attorney. Attorneys complained that telling jurors details, certain details, were prejudicial. They said, why put a religious connotation on this case at all, unless it's to give the impression that these people, Lyn Scott and his supporters, are crazy, born again kooks. They were so eager to find him guilty, the only way they could do that was to reach out and assign some sort of motive of religious execution, which that barely came up. It was mainly about. He dreamed exactly what happened. So the sentencing comes around. He gets a new attorney for a sentencing, by the way, which is highly weird to have different ones. They said, by the way, the prosecutors have been getting death threats.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Of course they have.

[James Petragallo]

Constantly threats have come in. A caller to one of them several days ago said, are you the person who prosecuted Steven Linscott? We're going to get you. And this guy said, in my 11 years as a prosecutor, including cases against street gang leaders, I've never experienced anything like this. The street gang leaders know the game. That's why they're not gonna threaten a prosecutor. They know the game. You got fucking tackled in bounds, fourth down, fucking move on. That's it. So the sentencing comes around here. At sentencing, Lois makes a tearful and emotional plea. Your Honor, Steven Lynn Scott is both my husband and my best friend. I've known him for eight and a half years. Not once have I ever seen any behavior showing him capable of this horrendous crime. He's a sincere and devoted Christian, and I'm proud to be his wife. Steve says, in the end, God will justify me. People reporters ask why I speak of a dream at all. There are segments of society where people do believe in dreams. And yet they would not have gone to the police. I would never have gone either, except for the visits by the police. The judge said that he was receiving a great number of letters on his behalf from churches. He said, I feel the case was well tried on both sides. Then he says, Karen Phillips was only 24 years old, and according to tables of mortality, she could have had a life expectancy of another 65 years. I feel a period of, you, sir, may fuck off. 40 years would be a meaningful sentence.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

He'll be eligible for parole in 20. Wow. Okay. The prosecutor said, I'm not unhappy with the sentencing. Twelve people heard it, and they took eight hours to find him guilty. I'm just sorry it took five months to sentence him. That's because he had to get a new lawyer and a guy had to catch up. One of his church people said it was a spiritual battle in there. I saw the pride and the coldness of the judge. It was the devil they called the judge the devil. Yeah, okay. His wife Lois said, I have no idea where we're gonna get the money for an appeal. Yeah, you do. From all these fucking church people. Give me a break. In prison. Scott said, or Steve said. He. I keep calling him Scott for some reason in prison. He said this just gave him an opportunity to evangelize inside the prison. That's all the people who really needed it. He said there's been times of bitterness and anger. He says, I still have a great respect for authority, but I no longer respect some of the people wielding it. It. They've taken away the values and freedoms that they're supposed to protect. Yeah. So there you go. He said, Lois said, he's God's given us the strength to make it through. We hope it will end soon. But even if Steve is not free until we're 60, when he does get out, we'll act like 25 year olds when he went in. Don't do gross. The appeal comes in. The prosecutor said, as far as I'm concerned, Lyn Scott did it. We convicted the right guy. The jury, my partner and I may be the only people in the world who believe that at this point, but that's my opinion. It's possible, remotely possible that someone other than Lyn Scott did it. So yeah, this is what we do here. He gets a new lawyer. The blood is the big one. The blood is the big deal is what we're talking about. And he's got a whole different. A list of like 40 differences between the dream and real life. Like in my dream I said just beating. And in real life it was strangulation and beating, stuff like that and rape. And they said beating only there was also stab wounds and that kind of shit. So, you know, it's pretty interesting. He's got all. It's a long fucking list of shit though. He's got this whole. And also like the differences about her Caucasian in real life. Dreamed victim maybe was a black person, 24. He said she's 24 years old. He didn't give any age about her or anything like that, that she's a nurse. No information about her job. So it's all that kind of shit. And the attacker, he's like not me at all. I told you those differences. Also prosecutorial misconduct is what they're just saying here. They said that carriage quote, Karen was raped by a non secretor and the defendant is a non secretor. Seminal material. One fact that came from a non secretor. Mr. Lynn Scott's a lot Non secretor. They said that at the end. Now, no one testified that Karen was raped by a non secretor or the seminal material came from a non secretor. Only the prosecutor said that. So the prosecutor simply made up that piece of evidence. The appeals court finds the made up evidence was doubly devastating because not only was it false, but it reduced the pool of possible assailants from a substantial percentage of the male population, or even the entire population, to just the 20 males and 20% of the population. The defendant being a non secretor was, is within that 20% group created by the prosecutor and his argument to the jury. Okay, so there's also testimony about pubic hair. According to the state's evidence, the pubic hair was found on the carpet and several head hairs were found on the bed sheet were from a black person. Therefore they could not have come from the victim or the defendant. They're both white. According to the testimony, race can be determined by hairs, but neither sex nor age can be determined by hairs. Okay, so they can do a lot about the hair stuff. And hairs are not. Hairs are not reliable, except if it's for DNA.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Then they're terrific. So, yeah, they go on. He says you must. This is in the closing rebuttal argument that the prosecutor said. He says you must ask yourself, where's the link? The link is the semen matching the non secretor. Yeah, non secretor and semen in the same sex sentence is rough.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's very gross.

[James Petragallo]

Very, very gross. So the appeals court said not only did the prosecutor in his rebuttal closing argument reinforce his prior misrepresentation to the jury that there was evidence that the seminal material on the vaginal swab was from a non secretor. Well, we just made it grosser. We just found a way to make it grosser. But the prosecutor also told the jury that there was evidence that the defendant's pubic hairs and pubic hairs that were combed from the victims matched and were identical. They said they did not. The expert did not testify and he certainly did not intend his testimony to mean that the hairs that he had compared matched were identical when he said they were consistent. It's not what they do. So also the defense hair guy, the cross on him, they said that was also prosecutorially wrong. They go on to say that we believe the prosecutor's misrepresentations relating blood and his comparisons were egregious. And they overturn the decision, overturn the conviction. Now, there is a dissenting opinion here that says, I believe that the prosecutor's comments that the victim was raped by a non secretor were based on reasonable inferences which could be drawn from the evidence of blood comparison tests performed on the semen. I find that the majority inaccurately depicts the prejudice of these comments by quoting them side by side, when in fact they're separated by 63 pages in the trials transcripts. 83 pages containing their closing arguments. So, yeah, this person basically says, and there was plenty of evidence. So he's now freed on $100,000 personal recognizance bond.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

So Lois says that's the second piece of good news we've had that you know he's going to be out. First they overturned his conviction. Now it looks like he's getting out next week. We knew he'd be vindicated and the bond order is just further proof of that. When he gets released, he said he's going to the First Baptist Church in Centralia where they had had a huge campaign to release him and a huge party. They're gonna get shit hammered. I know he's gonna. Looking forward to meeting these people. The town also. Lois never expected such an outpouring of support from strangers. But she said it was amazing to see to us that so many people got involved. People have taken this case as their own, truly, as if they were a member of their own family. They've cried for us, they've prayed for us. In 1986, he's working as an ophthalmologist in Centralia, Illinois. Yeah, he's the practice manager. His wife teaches, does homeschooling for the kids and everything like that. But he's still. The charge is still there. Yeah. So wait, that's the thing. So then they. A four to two supreme. Because the overturning was appealed by the state to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court overturned the overturn and reinstated it with a 4 to 2 vote. Defendant voluntarily came forward with an account of a quote, dream that contained many unusual details which correlated with the actual murder. In particular, his account of a beating. Knowledgeable of the murder weapon and knowledgeable of of the victim's passive acceptance of the attack. Showed knowledge of the crime which would not likely be available to anyone else but the murderer. Okay. 1987, the court orders a new trial for him. Okay, so he's gonna get a new trial here. Now that's what they're talking about. 1990, the verdict is overturned again. Then 1991, the court grants a new trial again as a reinstatement. So they keep going back and forth the justices here rule for nothing that prosecutors in this case had misrepresented evidence that connected him to the prime. Now it's not even. There isn't even a dissenting one. They said this made up evidence was doubly devastating because not only was it false, but it reduced the pool of assailants. Again. 1992, the state's attorney announced that Steve will no longer be prosecuted based on new scientific evidence. Dn fucking A. They said the scientific evidence does not completely exonerate the man, but it raises scientific doubts and leaves us, in my opinion, with no choice but to prosecute him. Yeah, not to prosecute him. Lyn Scott called the decision courageous and said he made the right decision. He freed an innocent man whether he realizes it or not. I am innocent. Yeah. So that's how that goes. They turns out that the. Based on analysis from CBR Laboratories of Boston, the semen could not have come from Steve, period. End of story. He's excluded as a. As a contributor to that. He did not do this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. He said, good grief. Those guys don't murder.

[James Petragallo]

Good grief generally. Either that or they murder a lot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[James Petragallo]

So, yeah, so then he starts building a new life. And he wrote a book called Maximum Security. There they said there are injustices all the time. And we just learned about that in 2002. He is pardoned by the governor of Illinois, as a matter of fact. So it's not even on his record. Then in 2004, the state agrees to pay wrongfully convicted former inmates from a pool of a million dollars. So it looks like he's gonna get some cash. He's gonna get anywhere from $60,150 to $1,038,000 in cash. There's two books about this. Neither of them are available in audio or Kindle version. Innocence, the True Story of Steve Linscott is by Gordon Harrison. And that came out in 1986.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, wow.

[James Petragallo]

And you can get a paperback for $2.93 on Amazon. And also Maximum Security, written by Steve and Randall Frame, which is pretty funny because he was framed. This the Heart. It was written in 1994. Hardcover is all you could get. It's a $99 cheap, by the way. Check him out there. Doesn't he look like.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, he doesn't look like he did a goddamn thing.

[James Petragallo]

He looks like the guy with the stapler in Office Space. Yeah, he looks like. Yeah. So there you go, everybody. That is Oak Park, Illinois, and one of the most fucked up cases ever.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How did he know so much.

[James Petragallo]

That's the thing. How the fuck did he know all that? Either he is a psychic or someone else raped her while he was there. Gang. All I can think was it somebody from her school. Maybe because she came home from the school. I mean, maybe that was it. But how would she know? She passively accepted death. That's so fucking weird. I don't get it. Horrible way. Either way, it doesn't matter. There you go. That is Oak Park, Illinois and a fucked up case. If you like that and like all of the things we do here, get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars. It helps so fucking much. I can't even tell you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We never do unsolved and I hate this right now.

[James Petragallo]

I know it's. I hate it too. But it was like it was solved and then unsolved. It's too interesting. And they've never found who it is. I mean if anybody else, if it comes up in a crime scene, I'm sure they'll match it up, but I'm not sure here. Definitely head over to shut upandgivemerder.com new tour dates coming out maybe now. Check on there right now. If you're listening to this on very early access, you can still get tickets for Boston this Saturday. There's a couple left. New York is sold out, everybody. So thank you for doing that. Thank you for everything you've done this year. Can't wait to see everybody in 2025. We're fucking jacked for that shit. Certainly head over to Patreon. Patreon.com crimeinsports get all your bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you are going to get all the bonus material that we have. Hundreds of episodes immediately upon subscription. New ones every other week. One crime in sports, One Small town murder. This week, what you're gonna get for crime in sports, we're gonna talk about terrible sports songs meaning athletes singing, which is never good. Teams together. Macho Man, Randy Savage. It's all bad. Never good. And then for Small town murder, we're finally gonna do remote viewing. Apparently the CIA thought it was possible for a guy to concentrate hard enough to see where terrorists are hiding.

[Jimmy Wissman]

One guy can do it.

[James Petragallo]

Crazy. One guy can do it. Yeah. This guy is the only guy. That's, that's why it's kind of on there. It works out perfectly. So check that out. Definitely. Patreon.com CrimeInSports also follow us on social media. We are Smalltown Murder on Instagram. Smalltown Pot on Facebook. And now I would like to hear the names of the most wonderful goddamn people who, even if it was a dream, if they saw us being murdered, they'd help. Jimmy, hit me with those names like a tire iron to the forehead.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This week's executive producers are Cody and Lainey Leversy. They're bringing up.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yeah, they're nice people.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Next year's shows. They're terrific people.

[James Petragallo]

Good people.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I think they're trying. I don't know that. That doesn't matter. I'm not gonna talk about what they're trying to do. I think they're trying to have kids, but I'm not sure. They just got married.

[James Petragallo]

The crazy post. All nice to these people.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I love that. Cody's fantastic. Anyway. Stephen Tott. Or maybe Toe. T O T. I don't know. If that's Toe, it could be toast. All right.

[James Petragallo]

We're calling him Todd. He's a tater tot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There it is. Gary Howard. Noel Meek.

[James Petragallo]

Gary. Hey, Congratulations, Gary.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Gary. Gary's kids are trying to have kids.

[James Petragallo]

Yes. Gary had a brand new grandchild and we'd like to say congratulations to Gary on that. Good job, buddy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Regina.

[James Petragallo]

Good job. Having a kid a long time ago.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Good job. I don't know what you had to do with it.

[James Petragallo]

He had a kid 25 years ago. Couldn't. Wouldn't be possible without it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He put his foot on the kid's ass and pushed him in. Deeper eyes. I don't know.

[James Petragallo]

Get in there. Up toward the cervix. Let's go. Ropes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm telling. All right. Regina Pre. Holtz. Bryoz. Linda Cody. Maybe Mike Connor. The coolest police chief in America. Matthew Moore. Diana War. He's terrific.

[James Petragallo]

Good guy. Thanks.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's. I love him. Other producers this week. Peyton Meadows. Elizabeth Rockefeller. Janice Hill.

[James Petragallo]

Brock Hall.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Abby with no last name. Emily. Michigan. Clarence Bunch. I don't know if that's Michigan. That may have been a correction from Apple. I don't remember typing. Michigan.

[James Petragallo]

Who knows?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Clarence Bunch. Warren Taylor. Savannah would know. Last name. Lee Arnold. Jeffrey Thomas. 401 Ontario. Michael Chermac. Chernick Churn. That's an M. Stacey Crosby. Kristen. Kristen. Kristen Piper. Jason with no last name. Suzanne Jackson. Dot Jenkins. Spells cast Art. Lisa Montoya. Darling Chalaway. Josh with no last name. Megan Russell. Kit Tylee. Teresa Tapscott. Ailey Ally. Ally Knowlton. Sarah Lewis. The Sin. Hitman 97. Dorothea Sterling. Daisy May. Kelly Greenwald. Andy with no last name. Krista Johnson. Andrew with no last name. Leonard Phelan. Maybe Liz with no last name. Ashley Smodich. Chris Weber. Probably not.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yeah. Chris. Hey, don't call timeout. Check how many you have first time out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Chris. Panda Sanchez. Jared Laurent. Emily Payne. Brianna Cota. Ratch with no last name. I imagine that's short for Rachel. AJ Bryce with no last name. Charisma.

[James Petragallo]

You never know. She may have been really self aware. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She looks in the mirror and goes, they just call me Ratch. Charisma. Hunter. Travos Trayvoski. Troyoski. What is. Oh, that's a V. Travoski. Caroline Dranao. Tucker. Lift. Lisping. Lars Quartz. Aaron with no last name. Jacob Magnum.

[James Petragallo]

Can't help it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Ashley Marie. Renee Lynn. What was it? What did I miss?

[James Petragallo]

The Tucker. Can't help it. He's lisping.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, it's a. It's a part of life, man. He never grew up. Joe Dickinson. Laura. Terry Tay with no last name. Taylor. Martin Duncan Lane. Austin Mason. Cali Smith. Karen Mays. Rob Ellis. Hunter. Paulus. Paulus. Paulus. Holland Potter. Andrea Burton. Heather Neal. Brandon Machado. Machado. Callissa McAllister. Megan Derner. Jason Christ. Rick Weiss. Paris Phone. Persephone. Persephone, that. Is that a name? Persephone? Perhaps. If it's Italian. I don't know. Jen the dinosaur. But. But Dwyer. Perhaps the best.

[James Petragallo]

Well, best press conference of all time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Many more have the balls. Erica Longo. Bailey Bayless. Herrick. Howard Haley Hale.

[James Petragallo]

Hail.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's what it is.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Brent McNamara. Jeannie. Jeannie Larson. Sean Major. Love. My Inc. David F. Amanda Hepler. Maria with no last name. Courtney Hall. Kyle with no last name. May with no last name. Claire and Nicola. Samantha Zuninga. Zuniga.

[James Petragallo]

Laurel. Zuniga.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Laurel Schultz. Laurel. Laurel. Laurel is what it is. Nicole with no last name. Molly Goggin. Travis Stotts. Dana Ranky Gums. Ashley Jackson. Lavinia Hale. Robin with no last name. Natasha Combs. Amber Gonzalez. Brandy. Nope, that's Brandon. Brandon. Bobby. Willie Patterson. Natalie. Natalie Miller. Ruby Joe. Johnny Ruiz. Andrew W. Allison Roberts. Otto with no last name. Brad with no last name. Aaron. Crystal Taylor. Sonny with no last name. Kelsey Walkers Watkins. God damn it, Chris. Chris Scrivener. Scribner. Maybe.

[James Petragallo]

Reading is hard, isn't it?

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's the worst.

[James Petragallo]

Really is. All week.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Melanie Gunther. And then as I finish one, there comes another shell with no last name. Jessica Garcia. Hell's Half Acre. I don't know if that's the place. Isn't that a restaurant or a bar and grill or some. Maybe. Is Hell's Half Acre a thing?

[James Petragallo]

It's like an idiom, like a cliche. Is it? It's like Hell's Half Acre that place is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know what it is.

[James Petragallo]

It's called like a shitty house. Hell's Half Acre.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Maybe I should read more books. Natalie Cook, Leah Arrington, Sam Penner, Amy M, Donna Jones, Kia Martin, Kaylia kia Janine Tenbrook, 10 broke Jordan Alavado DK like Donkey Kong Erica Tess Tellis, Carly Osborne, Harley Weigert DB with no last name like Cooper, Dustin Callahan Bean with no last name Taylor with no last name Renee Blaine, Ashley Fazino, Wynn with no last name Melissa with no last name Tracy with no last name Eric Wright, Glenny, Glennie Red Todd Usher, Quentin Binkley, Cameron Hughes, Tasha Yarborough, Nick Fricano, Emily with no last name Les Morcil, Christina Schultz, Anthony C. Salone, Casey Rath and all of our patrons. You know what you are. You're the best.

[James Petragallo]

Thank you so much everybody. You're fantastic people. We cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us and just thank you. Keep doing it. We love you so fucking much. We will be back and keep coming back. You want to follow us on social media? Everything is Sean, shut up and give me murder.com drop down menus. Keep coming back and following us and until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure. If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey they say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock together rich, be adored and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Raiden was found dead in a Canyon near LA in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime. The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime the Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts, you can binge all episodes of the Cotton Club Murder early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.