#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York

Summary

Podcast Summary: Small Town Murder Episode #557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York

Introduction

In episode #557 titled "Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York," hosts James Pietragallo and Jimmy Whisman explore a chilling and unresolved murder case that has left a lasting impact on the quiet suburban town of Brighton, New York. Blending thorough research with their signature comedic approach, the duo delves into the complexities of the case, dissecting the events, investigations, and lingering questions that continue to baffle authorities and residents alike.

Background of Brighton, New York

Brighton, located approximately 10 minutes outside Rochester and an hour and fifteen minutes from Buffalo, is one of the oldest towns in Monroe County, established in 1814. Originally a farming community known for brick manufacturing, Brighton transitioned into an upscale suburb over the decades. With a population of roughly 36,986, the town boasts a median household income of $75,852 and a predominantly white demographic (76.3% white, 10.8% Asian, 5.9% Black). The community is characterized by manicured lawns, spacious homes, and a relatively low crime rate, making the subsequent murder all the more shocking.

Notable Quote: James Pietragallo (07:21): "The suburbs of Rochester is just a majestic place to reside. And now we know the suburbs of Rochester is a..."

The Murder of Kathy Krasnick

On the morning of February 19, 1982, Jim Krasnick Jr. returned home from his job at Kodak to discover his wife, Kathy Krasnick, brutally murdered in their master bedroom. An axe was found embedded in her skull, and the crime scene was meticulously staged to resemble a burglary, complete with scattered valuables like Kathy's purse and a tea set. Strangely, nothing appeared to have been stolen, raising suspicions about the true nature of the attack.

Notable Quote: James Pietragallo (56:30): "That's a lot. Think about that."

Timeline of Events

• Pre-Murder: Jim and Kathy Krasnick married in 1974 and moved to Brighton after Jim accepted a position at Kodak. They had a daughter, Sarah, in 1978.

• February 18-19, 1982: Jim worked at Kodak, took Sarah to a podiatry appointment, and returned home to find Kathy dead with an axe in her head. The house showed signs of a staged burglary, but no items were missing.

• Post-Murder: Jim, visibly traumatized, contacted his neighbor who then called the police. Authorities arrived swiftly but found no concrete evidence pointing to an intruder, leading them to scrutinize Jim himself.

Investigation

The Brighton Police Department faced a perplexing case with minimal physical evidence. Key points of the investigation included:

• Time of Death: The medical examiner estimated Kathy died between 6:30 AM and 9:30 AM based on body temperature and rigor mortis. However, this conflicted with Jim's alibi of being at work during that time.

• Boat Shoe Footprint: A faint boat shoe print was found near the crime scene, and a pair of such shoes belonging to Jim were discovered in the house. However, these were not collected for forensic analysis, weakening the link to Jim.

• Lack of Fingerprints: No fingerprints were found at the scene, including those of the family members, suggesting thorough cleaning or the perpetrator wore gloves.

• Ed Larrabee: A career criminal living five minutes away from the Krasnick residence, Ed Larrabee, became a person of interest. Larrabee admitted to several violent crimes but initially denied involvement in Kathy's murder. Later, he confessed to multiple homicides, including Kathy's, before recanting.

Notable Quote: Jimmy Whisman (56:08): "They have no extracts, just scraps. How do you clean all the doorknobs?"

Suspects and Theories

1. Jim Krasnick Jr.: As the husband, Jim became the primary suspect due to the staged burglary and the boat shoe footprint linking him to the scene. Additionally, it was revealed that Jim had not completed his Ph.D. as previously claimed, raising questions about his honesty and potential marital conflicts.

2. Ed Larrabee: A known violent criminal who admitted to multiple murders, including Kathy's. However, his confession was met with skepticism due to inconsistencies in his statements and his eventual death in 2014 before any legal proceedings could affirm his involvement.

Notable Quote: James Pietragallo (70:37): "They said, though, nothing. The detective said it was like nobody lived there."

The Trial

In 2020, Jim Krasnick was indicted and brought to trial based primarily on Dr. Michael Bodden's forensic testimony regarding the time of death. Despite the absence of new physical evidence, the prosecution argued that the temporal discrepancy between Jim's alibi and the estimated time of death implicated him as the murderer.

Notable Quote: Jimmy Whisman (157:36): "We trust him. He sounds just like he does."

Appeal and Aftermath

Jim's conviction faced several challenges:

• Flawed Forensic Evidence: Critics argued that Dr. Bodden's methods were unreliable, and his testimony was based on a narrow interpretation of body temperature and rigor mortis.

• Lack of Concrete Evidence: No DNA or fingerprints tied Jim directly to the murder weapon or the act itself.

• Exoneration Posthumously: In 2023, Jim passed away in prison before his appeal could be resolved. Following the precedent similar to the "Aaron Hernandez rule," his conviction was vacated due to the unresolved appeal, rendering him technically innocent.

Notable Quote: James Pietragallo (161:42): "His conviction was erased and his indictment dismissed because he had a pending appeal."

Conclusion

The Suburban Ax Murder Mystery in Brighton, New York, remains emblematic of the complexities and challenges inherent in cold-case investigations. Despite initial suspicions and a dramatic trial, the lack of definitive evidence ensures that Kathy Krasnick's murderer remains unidentified. The case underscores the importance of robust forensic methods and the potential consequences of investigative oversights.

Notable Quote: James Pietragallo (68:02): "It's a very thankful day. You want to talk to him? Sit him down, interview him. So I should tackle him? Yeah, just tackle him."

Final Thoughts

James and Jimmy reflect on the unresolved nature of the case, expressing frustration with the investigative process and the reliance on dubious forensic testimony. They highlight the enduring pain for the Krasnick family and the broader implications for justice in seemingly straightforward suburban settings. The episode serves as both a narrative of a tragic event and a critique of the investigative methods that failed to bring closure to a grieving community.

Notable Quote: James Pietragallo (164:05): "You do know that Jim was being robbed at gunpoint, right? That's terrorist shit."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting the key elements of the Brighton murder case while incorporating notable quotes with proper attribution and timestamps. It provides a clear and engaging overview for listeners unfamiliar with the episode.

Transcript

[James Petragallo]

Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you about Noom. Has Noom helped you? I believe it has.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, it's got an app. You can do tracking. It's terrific.

[James Petragallo]

It does. And Noom builds personal plans that can meet individual needs. That's the thing. Takes into account any dietary restrictions, medical issues, other personal needs. That helps build a plan that works for you. And yes, so you've, I know that you've had your own personalized program here that you've been working on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And weight loss, this is weight loss results that last. They stick around because you get yourself into a lifestyle change. That's what matters.

[James Petragallo]

That's mainly. You can't just say I'm going to cut that out for a month and then go back. That's not what it is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You don't.

[James Petragallo]

So I'm glad it's helping you. That's great. And it really does. I like the psychology and biology based approach here. Noom weight uses psychology. That's why they say losing weight starts with your brain but it also takes into account your unique biological factors. Jimmy. All of all of your all different multitude flora and fauna that goes on inside of you there. Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology based approach. Sign up for your trial today at Noom.com, noom.com N O O M.com here based on 3.5 year study of actively engaged NOOM users with minimum starting BMI of 25. Individual results may vary. Visit our website for more information. Planning any exciting trips this year?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I bet something you might not be.

[James Petragallo]

Planning is learning the local language. Well, with Babbel you only need a few weeks to learn. This year, speak like a whole new you with Babbel, the language learning app that gets you talking. Babbel's quick 10 minute lessons, handcrafted by over 200 language experts get you to begin speaking your new language in three weeks or whatever pace you choose. And because conversing is the key to really understanding each other in new languages, Babbel is designed using practical real world conversations. Let's get more of you talking in a new language. Babbel is gifting our listeners 60% off subscriptions at babbel.com truecrime get up to 60% [e-mail] truecrime spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com truecrime babel.com truecrime rules and restrictions may apply this week in Brighton, New York a perplexing mystery unfolds after a horrifying axe murder is discovered in a quiet suburban home, leaving police suspicious of the spouse, even though there's a career criminal down the street. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yay.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm Jimmy Whisman.

[James Petragallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. This one is pretty damn wild, I'll say right off the bat. Can't wait to get to that. A real perplexing mess of a case here. Get to all that first of all, though. Absolutely. Head over to shutupandgivemerder.com get your tickets. Tickets for live shows are live right now for 2025. Some places we've never been before, like Grand Rapids. We have one more that we've never been to that we're announcing here in a couple of weeks. So there's that. We're all over the place. Irvine, San Diego, Portland, Seattle. We got Irvine. Fucking yeah. Irvine down there. We got Philly, dc, Pittsburgh, Columbus.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Absolutely.

[James Petragallo]

Can't wait. We're excited for it. There's another couple I'm forgetting, but they're in there. Chicago, Chicago, St. Louis, St. Louis. Don't forget. Gotta go get your tickets right now. Tell you that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Look at the website and find one close to you. Let's go.

[James Petragallo]

Let's go. Even if it's not close to you, it's worth a drop.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Specifically, Pittsburgh. Let's do that first.

[James Petragallo]

Pittsburgh, you're up first, so do that. It's super bowl weekend. Who cares? It's on a Friday. You'll be fine for the game Sunday. Pregame, pregamin.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get your liver primed. Let's party.

[James Petragallo]

That's right. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all of that. Also, check out Crime and Sports and your stupid opinions, our other two shows. And if that's not enough, go to patreon. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material and there's a ton of it. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're gonna get a gigantic back catalog of stuff you've never heard before. Hundreds of episodes of bonus stuff. Then you get new ones every other week. One Crime and Sports, one small town murder, and you get them all, baby. That's right. This week for Crime and Sports, we're doing back to personal ads. Oh, it's been a while. Can't wait for some more old timey personal ads. Those are a lot of fun. Always a popular. Oh, always a hoot. And then for small town murder, we're going to do something very cool and weird. We're going to talk about the West Memphis Three, which people have been waiting for. And we're going to specifically focus on the beginning and how the hell any of this shit happened.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How did they fuck it up so bad?

[James Petragallo]

How did we get to the point where we were at? You know what I mean? Like how do we get pre documentary, pre Paradise Lost, what was bumbled? How did this even be a thing that happened? Bungled and bumbled, ruined and fumbled. Fumbled, bumbled and bungled all up at once. Check all that out. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show too. Jimmy will mess your name up real good for you. Don't worry about that. So that is fun stuff. That said, disclaimer time. Hey, everybody, this is a comedy show. Unfortunately, it's also a show about real murder that happens. So in case you're wondering, nothing's made up for comic effect. We're not like, oh, let's embellish that because it'll be funny. No, no, no. These are real stories and you just got to find the weird stuff in them. You might say, how did true crime and comedy go together? Very easily if you do it right. That's the thing. The thing is you never have to make fun of the victim or the victim's family.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why, Jim?

[James Petragallo]

There's a reason for that. Because we're assholes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But.

[James Petragallo]

But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's really easy to do. So if you think that true crime and comedy though, are never go together and you don't want to hear that, well then I don't know why you're even listening to the show. But it might not be what you think. So check it out. No complaining later. That said, everybody, I think it's time to sit back. Let's all take deep breaths. Here we go. Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this. Everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah, let's get into this. We are going to New York this week. Yeah, been a while since we've been to New York actually. So gonna be a thing here. We are going to Brighton, New York. This is in western New York outside of Rochester. It's only about 10 minutes outside of Rochester. So this is like Rochester suburbs, which is about an hour and 15 minutes away from Buffalo. So kind of up in that cold lake effect snow quadrant of the state there. Almost six hours to New York City. And if you look it up on a map, how to get there and just say Brighton, New York to New York City. You have to go through two other states to get there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Petragallo]

It goes Pennsylvania, then New Jersey, and then you go up to New York State to New York City. If you went through New York, it takes even longer. It's fucking crazy. And it is about 3 hours and 15 minutes to Walton New, which was our last episode from New York, which was runaway husband episode 502, which was a fun episode. So this week there, there's. The county for this week's show is in Monroe County. Brighton, New York is in. And it is area code 585. And a little bit of history here. The town was named for Brighton, England, obviously, which looks nothing like this. That's a beach town with like, you know, all sorts of piers and boardwalks and Ferris wheels and shit. It's definitely not a gathering place. It's definitely not a cold, gray western New York suburb, for sure.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dump snow.

[James Petragallo]

You know, one of those. The first Europeans in this area were French trappers in the 1600s who would visit here but didn't settle here. They're like, listen, we'll go up there and get some fur and then go back to where it doesn't snow four feet at a time. Thank you. English colonists built permanent structures in about 1790. That's a. Took a long time for that to happen here. And they formally established a town in 1814, making it one of the oldest towns in Monroe County. It was mainly a farming community. And they also made bricks here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Seasonably farming, obviously.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, seasonably, yeah. That month, that three weeks of summer that you get, I feel like is a big deal. And then they made.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They got fires burning.

[James Petragallo]

They made bricks. Yeah, that's how it happened. But that's. It was like a, you know, farms and brick manufacturing. And then it slowly became suburbs, like an upscale suburb basically of Rochester when they got rid of all that shit. 1999, the town purchased 64 acres with the intention of developing a central park. They don't have a central park with the intent. Intention. They bought this land and now it's still there, but it's not exactly a landscaped park. We'll get to it. They also.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I got a lot of projects like that around my house. I get it.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, I have tons of shit. I haven't. I've been sitting there for two years. Yeah, I'll get to it. I just usually don't purchase 64 acres of land first is the only difference. They had the Alcoa Carefree home back in the day, which was the first. It's become. Alcoa is the aluminum company of America, by the way. And big deal. And back. They were an even bigger deal when we made shit out of aluminum. More than just cans, basically. So back they wanted to make aluminum houses. So they had these model homes. This is this there that you could see. And they built all these model homes. And then nobody ever said that's a good idea. So they never built their house out of this shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Didn't work because, you know, trailers and stuff.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. You know, a lot of people with aluminum houses. No, not on a foundation, I'll tell you that much.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You know what I mean?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, exactly. Then after that, they were like, okay, people don't want to build their homes out of aluminum. What if we just fucking encase the home in aluminum? How about that? Maybe we can get them to do that. The stone Tolan house is also here, which is a historic place. It's just a really old farmhouse that's there. Famous people that have lived here and are from here. Kristen Wiig is from here, I believe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that right?

[James Petragallo]

SNL ACTRESS and then Frederick Douglass lived here for a long time, so that was pretty cool too. So lived here. Lived here for a while. Yeah. I don't think he was from here. I think he was from other places. Definitely not choice.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A place to settle when you're an American hero, I guess.

[James Petragallo]

I don't know. I guess he likes the snow is all I can imagine. He wants to watch bricks be made back in the day. I'm not sure. So reviews of this town. Let's find out what we got here because we've never been here. What the hell do we know about this place? Here is one. Here's five stars. And this is basically a review of a shopping plaza. It has nothing to do with the town. I love it when people completely misunderstand the assignment and give you something that nobody wants.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But this is the reason Frederick Douglass was there.

[James Petragallo]

That's what. He was there. Well, yeah, he was there for the Brighton Commons Plaza. I believe he's the founding member of it. Probably. It says 5 stars shopping services and a great blend of dining. Brighton Commons Plaza is my favorite. With easy parking, the merchants offer a variety of shopping options from gifts to Upscale furniture and clothing consignment and golf tech for year round lessons.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everybody knows Frederick Douglass loved golf tech.

[James Petragallo]

Well, he liked the year round lesson. See Frederick Douglass. Everybody knows. He had a long drive, but his short game was shit and he really wanted to work on it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's pretty weak.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it was weak. Terrible chipping. Oh my God. You get that guy in a sand trap. Fuck it. Just there all day. Give him 12 strokes and move on. Because it's not. It's gonna take a while. He's no good. He needed terrible. A spa, bridal salon, orthodontics, hair salon, dining, tailoring, and the best custard.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

All righty. One of Rochester's most recognized original shopping plazas. Again, this is on niche.com for the town of fucking Brighton. Has nothing to do with this plaza.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Start looking for good custard.

[James Petragallo]

I'm telling you, I've never once been like, where can I get good custard? Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Never thought of it.

[James Petragallo]

Never once happened. Didn't even know there was whole stores just dedicated to custard. Custard and sons. Just. I never even had any idea. Four stars. Here you have it all. You would need.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You do.

[James Petragallo]

You have it all you would need. The beautiful water's edge, the lush green parks, acres of apple orchards, Wildlife runs free. The suburbs of Rochester is just a majestic place to reside. And now we know the suburbs of Rochester is a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Keeping it a secret.

[James Petragallo]

Majestic. Yeah, you know, like. Like Alaska or something. It's majestic. Okay then. Two stars. Finally. This is amazing. Two stars. The people here seem friendly on the outside, but a lot of them will insult you or talk bad about you behind your back. That's the whole review.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Shit talking backstabbing sons of bitches in this town.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On the outside they look pleasant.

[James Petragallo]

There they are eating their custard, looking all happy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You know the shit out of you.

[James Petragallo]

You know what's behind that though. You know what's behind that custard grin. So very custard eating. Grand, you custard eating bastards. Bright and full of custard eating motherfuckers. That's what it is. So speaking of eating, I was looking up places to eat here, just looking for reviews of stuff. And I found Joe's Brooklyn Pizza in Brighton. So I found this. This place has 3.7 stars, which is not wonderful.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not great.

[James Petragallo]

Not great. And just a couple of these I have to read because they're goddamn hilarious. So you need to check them out here to maybe avoid this spot. Marie gives one star. And this is A great review. Disgusting older man that makes pizza and burps and passes gas while making pizza. Three exclamation points.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Stay out of my kitchen.

[James Petragallo]

Maria farts and burps while making pizza.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't have to tell you.

[James Petragallo]

I don't know. Completely disgusting and unprofessional.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, listen, I ate here. That's the problem.

[James Petragallo]

That's the. Yeah, you eat pizza three times a fucking day and see if you don't get a little gassy, that cheese will get. That guy might have had a calzone for lunch. He could have a bot. Just three pounds of cheese and then. Mike. One star. I'm just going to read the first fucking line of this gentleman who answers the phone on Saturdays around 6pm is a scumbag.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's a great insult, but for real answering the phone, you know, he's a scumbag.

[James Petragallo]

Did he burp and fart while he was on the phone with you? Is that possible?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Could you call it through the phone?

[James Petragallo]

This is mainly because they put you on hold without saying anything. They just say, hold, please. Yes. If you call a pizza place on a busy Friday night, they go, yeah, hold, hold, hold. And they're getting, you know, that is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Maybe the worst feeling in the world when you call somewhere and they answer and they say the place and go, please hold before you get to say a word, anything.

[James Petragallo]

They don't even know what you're there for.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's demoralizing.

[James Petragallo]

They don't know if you're a telemarketer. They have no goddamn idea. You're just on hold. Population in this town, 36,986. So good sized town. Yeah, good. Decent sized town. It's, you know, suburbs here. Almost 52% women here in this town. So that's high. Higher than the average. Median age is just above the average. It's 39.3. So that's just above the national average. It's about 50, 50 married. A lot of the stats say upscale suburb. Yeah, not a lot of people. Single with children, married with children here. Got a job. You work in Rochester. You drive here. You fucking, you know, mow the lawn on Saturday afternoon. I feel like it's that kind of town. Race of this town here, 76.3% white, 5.9% black, 10.8% Asian, which is that right? I had no idea Western New York had a lot of Asian people. Had literally no clue. Twice as many Asians as black people, which is a weird thing. It's very strange. Don't get me wrong. Have as many Asians as you like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're allowed.

[James Petragallo]

I'm not telling you, you know, a quota on your Asians that you have to have, it's fine. But that's what seems like a lot. 4.1% Hispanic here. Let's see, religion. 46.5% of the people here are religious, which is a little bit lower than the national average, but still pretty high. And the most of anybody is Catholic. Shocker. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the north. So that we do know. 1.4% Jewish. Oh my goodness.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holy. I love it.

[James Petragallo]

Oh my goodness. We get to sing the song.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dang. Here we go.

[James Petragallo]

Let's do Havana Hava nagila. Havanagila. I don't know the words. Hey. All right.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We love that.

[James Petragallo]

We got that. Let's see here. Median household income here is 75,852 a year, which is just above the national average.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pretty good.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah, it's not bad. It's a kind of a wealthier suburb. Nice houses, big yards, that sort of thing. It's a nice area. Median home cost here though, cost of living, we should say 100 is regular. Average here it's 88. So a little bit lower housing here, median home costs $289,900.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's pretty good.

[James Petragallo]

Not bad for like a nice upscale suburb here. And maybe we've convinced you that the only place you can lay your head is Brighton, New York. And if we have, if we've convinced you, we have for you the Brighton, New York real estate. The average two bedroom rental here goes for about $1380, which is just above the national average. But the house is decently affordable. Here is house number one. This is kind of the average house that we'll give you here. This is a four bedroom, three bath, 1780 square foot house. So decent family house, you know what I mean? Couple of kids. It's nothing special inside. It's kind of was clearly completely redone in like 2009. You could tell by the countertops, things like that. Not a bad house. 289,999. So that's kind of, that's what your average house is though, in terms of the price. House number two is a four bedroom, three bath, 2812 square foot house. And it actually is very similar to the house that's going to be in our story this week. Looks similar. You can tell, it's like in the similar type of neighborhood. Yeah, nice house. Pretty decent. It is 775,000 bucks for that. Yeah. Four bedroom, three bath, 2812 square feet. And there's no acreage. It's like, you know, less than a half acre, but decent size yard. Little pricey, I would say. Then house number three. Four bedroom, four bath, 3,247 square feet. T bowl for each and every B hole. And this house, it's on 1.6 acres. It's the weirdest looking fucking house that's ever been in New York. It looks like a douchebag. Hollywood producer in 1989 built it. It's got like those square, like, you can't see through the glass things with some windows.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Glass cubes.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. This is not a nice house at all. It's real weird looking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, it's a nice house for somebody.

[James Petragallo]

Somebody for a complete tool. It's a nice house. Like, if anyone saw this and went, oh, that's awesome, you go, that's a douchebag right there. This house is the equivalent of an Ed Hardy shirt and a pair of white Oakleys. That's what this house is. Fucking stupid. Real annoying looking house. Allison, who does our research here, she had a little 2 cents to add to this. She says Zillow calls this a contemporary masterpiece. I call it an ugly piece of shit. There you go. That's how it works. And I agree with her. Ugly piece of shit here. That's why we like allison. This is $1,345,000 for this monstrosity. It's weird, too. Like, it's got thin, weird hallways. It's a real weird house. I would definitely not pay that money for that house. Things to do here. Oh, boy. Here it is, everybody. The Rochester Erotic Arts Festival.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Yes. Where is it, do you think? What's the most erotic place you can think of?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sex stores.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Close. You're close.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wiggly.

[James Petragallo]

You're close. It's the Holiday Inn in Auburn, New York. That's where it's at. That's sexy right there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holiday Inn Executive Center.

[James Petragallo]

That's what I bet that continental breakfast is. Hot, sexy, hot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're coming down to make prints. Make copies. What the fuck is going on here?

[James Petragallo]

Tiny boxes of Froot Loops and miniature yogurts. Hot, sexy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pull it out.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. This. They say that the schedule includes hot, edgy, and beautiful erotic art.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Edgy.

[James Petragallo]

Edgy performances ranging from classy aerial dance to body burlesque. Unique shopping for clothing, jewelry, and sex toys. Of course, you got to have those. I mean, yeah, obviously, it's a sex festival. How do you not have that? Classes in art, dance, and sex ed for adventurous adults. Okay. And the pictures of this, it looks like it's not who you're picturing doing this. You're picturing. This is a very sexy thing. This is like a lot of people. A lot of mushy people in their 40s and 50s teaching each other how to use whips and shit, which is fine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Showing people the ropes of dildo play.

[James Petragallo]

But it looks about as erotic as a Holiday Inn in Auburn, New York, though. That's the difference. It's a little weird, but it does have maybe my favorite thing and a job that, God damn it, I wish I could do, because I would do it in a fucking heartbeat. Okay, sign language interpreters available all weekend. What a great job that is. I'd love to mime fucking on your clit like that. And then, yeah, then in there, you know, just miming the whole thing would be fan fucking tastic. Shit, I need to be there for that. Some of the classes they have subvert the dominant paradigm. Alternate alternative models for dominant submissive relationships. And it says owners and slaves, parents and offspring. Dubs subs and doms. I don't like the opening right there. Owners and slaves, parents and offspring. The fuck does that mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

All are welcome.

[James Petragallo]

Is that weirdo sex people come on in. Like, it's fine to be a weirdo. Sex people come in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're welcome.

[James Petragallo]

Do you like to fuck in a way that you're uncomfortable telling other people about? Here you go. Would your. Would your work people frown upon your sex life? Well, this is for you then. So, yeah, it says in a world that celebrates the erotic imagination. It's funny how limited our relationship models tend to be. So there's that. Also have a cookie using rewards in your BDSM relationship. Oh. Or I think that is self explanatory. You know, you do the right thing, you get a cookie. Apparently reward, which is what I want when I'm fucking, is cookies. And then for your own good, using punishment in your BDSM relationships.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, so you can either give them a cookie or punch them.

[James Petragallo]

They say the number one fantasy of BDSM kink is someone getting punished, whether in pure fantasy or as some sort of a structured relationship. But many get it so wrong. Explore the reasons for and effective methods of punishment to enhance and strengthen a relationship based upon authority and obedience. Holy shit. Next up, seducing the butt.

[Jimmy Whisman]

May as well.

[James Petragallo]

There you go. I really don't have to tell you much about that. That is super self explanatory.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Be nice to it and it'll be nice to you.

[James Petragallo]

The description. Just a lot of mention of lube in the description. Lots of lube mentioned. It will be taught by Luna Matatus. That's her name. Ain't no passing phase. Then there's skills for G spot and squirting joy. I think that's pretty explanatory. It's pretty self explanatory. And there's social gatherings as well. There's a. Of course, you got to take this newly learned information that joked me.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

This newly learned information and spread it around to the community. Okay, so there's the furries mixer. That's one. Whether you have a fursuit or not, or just love furries, you're welcome to come hang out and make some new friendships. They. They missed a. It could have said fur ships right there. And they missed it. They blew it. You blew it, guys. And then if you're really into that, there's a pet play mixer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a. That's the petting zoo, right?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Are you interested in active or active in pet play? This is an opportunity to meet other pets and pet owners, ask questions, dress as a pet and cavort with ponies, puppies, kitties and more cavort and whatever other dumb fucking costumes these idiots put on them. Then there's a Little's social and craft hour. Does that mean children? Are there children here? Please tell me that there's an age restriction on this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like a daycare center. So you can go. Oh, you've gotta come.

[James Petragallo]

No, this is for baby people. No. Yeah. Join your littles friends and their middles, mommies, daddies and caregivers for fun activities, snacks and networking. If you'd like to know more about the Little's lifestyle, you're welcome to join in the fun. You can wear your baby or kids clothes or whatever you're comfortable in. And it says bottoms must be covered. No dirty diapers allowed. You have to tell people, please don't shit yourself in public. The fact that you have to tell them that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Break character at least a little. Please.

[James Petragallo]

Holy ball. Yeah, use the bathroom. Then they close it out with Sibian rides.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Which if you don't know what that is, how are you gonna follow it? Yeah, yeah. It's a fuck machine. You can't follow. That's a closer right there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Come all day long. Don't worry. The clothes.

[James Petragallo]

Don't worry. Oh, my God. There's also a dungeon orientation, a Swingers 101. And then follow it all up with a breakfast buffet with omelette station. Because that's what I. That's what I want.

[Jimmy Whisman]

After all this on the last day, we will have an omelet and check out.

[James Petragallo]

Make me a nice Denver omelette. So it's. I've watched people in baby clothes fuck each other.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Rearranged on the inside by a Sibian.

[James Petragallo]

Have a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Have a Denver omelette.

[James Petragallo]

Yep. It's only 16 bucks for the. For the omelette station. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here, property crime just below the national average. So not too far below, but a little bit. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault is about one third of the national average. So very low, very low murder rate here. That said, let's talk about murder. What do you say, everybody? Let's do it. Let's talk about some people. First off here, let's talk about James Krasnick Jr. All right. James Krasnick Jr. Is born in 1951. He grew up in the small town of Mount Clemens, Michigan. That's where he's from. I think it's outside of Detroit, but like suburban Detroit. His family owned a carpet store. That's. That was. Yeah. Krausen Ek Carpets. Jesus, you can just smell it in there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Like a 60s carpet store.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Flammable carpeting. Hasn't been made fire retardant yet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. But it's got a chemical on it. You can't tell what it is, but there's.

[James Petragallo]

You know what it is. You smell some shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petragallo]

It's a sheen of some kind.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You walk in and go, chemical.

[James Petragallo]

What is that? Yeah, I smell something.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Your house will smell like this.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, for like a year and a half.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Unless you really smoke a lot, then it'll. Back then they go, I suggest smoking like two, three packs of cigarettes a day in here. It'll kill that carpet smell in a while. Don't worry about it. So he meets a young lady named Kathleen. Cathy is what she goes by Schlosser. Now. She's born in 1952. They're like in the same class in school. So they meet in school and they're just friends in high school. They're not going out or anything like that, but later on they will. Now she is born to her parents, Mr. And Mrs. Robert Schlosser. She's the second oldest of six children. So I don't even know what the identity would be there. You're not a middle kid. You're not one of the younger ones. You're not the oldest kind of stuck in the middle there. Her father was a truck driver, and then he ran a gravel business named Schlosser Trucking. God damn. Robert sounds like a tough guy. He's been.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, he's got. He's got a very hard hands.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. And I feel like if you run a gravel business, your voice is like this all the time, no matter what.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, you're gravelly.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. I feel like you could have a perfectly fine, you know, speaking voice and everything, a singing voice. And if you bought a gravel company, as soon as the paperwork went through, you'd be like, hello, Petra Gallo and Wisman Gravel. It'd be a fucking disaster.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It sounds like your larynx makes the gravel.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah. That's how you're making them yourself, pumping them out. Now, her mom would make all sorts of Polish food, and that's a big deal. Like, Kathy would have. All the friends from her neighborhood would be over. Her yard was, like, the spot where they all played and played soccer and hung out and shit. So the mom would make Polish treats for the kids.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here, come on over and have some food that tastes like it's turnt.

[James Petragallo]

Come on over and have things with kraut on it. Come get a pierogi is what that is. That's really the only outside of, like, edible, right. Polish sausage or whatever. Like, the only thing that I know is Polish is a pierogi.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm not a fan of Polish.

[James Petragallo]

They're okay. Pierogies are fine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But that. That's German. Yeah, yeah. I'll take a Polish is like. It's sour.

[James Petragallo]

That's so. Is German. Shit. Where do you think sauerkraut came from?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Brats got it like a. There's some seasoning in there. I don't know what it is.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah, Blots. See, brats. I love a brat, but sometimes they're a little too plain tasting for me. There's not enough, like, ginger or whatever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The fuck's in it.

[James Petragallo]

I don't know what the fuck it is. It's just kind of. It just tastes like meat they've taken the flavor out of sometimes, so you have to, like, load it up with mustard and all that. Like, I'd rather throw, like, a fucking hot Italian sausage in a bun.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's better that I can deal with. Yeah, hot links are fine, but it's just that a Polish is. I've never had one that I was like, you know, I'd do this again.

[James Petragallo]

It's never great. No, but it's okay. I don't Mind it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Put a ton of shit on it to make it edible.

[James Petragallo]

I'm gonna throw some mustard on there. Otherwise, it's just pierogies, which are basically Polish ravioli. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about one of our favorites, Simply safe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, SimpliSafe.com S I M P L.

[James Petragallo]

I safe.com that's absolutely correct. And if you're anything like us, most important thing for you is probably protecting your family from harm, right? I mean, nothing else matters. If people are coming into your house and, you know, murdering your whole family and robbing your house, what's the difference? That's why us here at Small Town Murder, along with millions of other Americans we trust Simply Safe with our home security. It's great. Our, both our studios, our homes, everything that we have is protected with Simplisafe because it is the best security you're going to get. You can install it incredibly easy on your own. Even I can do it. And I can't put IKEA furniture together. It's so good. I'm telling you. Start the year out with greater peace of mind. Visit simplisafe.comsmall to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's simplisafe.com/s I m p l I safe.com small there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petragallo]

This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January. It's a. It's a whole new slate, clean. You bet it is. Blank pages all the way around.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Absolutely.

[James Petragallo]

Maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here, a little plot twist in your story that you've been wanting to revise a little bit. But life isn't about resolutions that are going to fade away by February, by the, you know, right after New Year's. Think of therapy as an editorial partner. There you go. That's a good way to put it. Helping you write new chapters and creating the story of your life that you should have, that you want to have. That's what it's all about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The one you deserve.

[James Petragallo]

The one you deserve. And we can't say enough about therapy. We all have problems and we all have issues, and none of us are a boss.

[Jimmy Whisman]

None of us have the right answer all the time. Sometimes you need a little coaching. Sometimes you need an extra tool in the toolbox to cope and deal with the day.

[James Petragallo]

Write your story with better help. Visit betterhelp.com smalltownmurdertoday to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H E L P.com Small Town Murder now back to the show.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I love Chicago dog, so I'll eat anything in a Chicago dog way with like salt and pepper and garlic powder and.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, you could. Doesn't really. Doesn't really need to be a hot dog even under there, right?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Because then you can cook the living.

[James Petragallo]

Shit out of a salad on top of it. It's ridiculous. So Kathy here, she is very energetic, smart, engaged. She's that type of kid. Like her parents are very impressed with her. Her father said she bought new bicycles for her and her older brother when she was about 7 years old. And I guess he was showing the brother how to do it. And Kathy just got on her bike and started fucking riding away. So she didn't even want instructions. She's that kind of kid. Just didn't know how to ride. Just didn't do it. Yeah, they had a half acre property, which kind of seems like what most of the properties are here, about a half acre. And that was, like I said, the gathering place for the kids. They played soccer. Robert Schlosser said they broke the windows all the damn time playing soccer. She said they were breaking it all the time. The front window, the basement window. Well, I mean, I guess that's. Kids are being kids. They're playing soccer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They got fixed window money.

[James Petragallo]

They got fixed. Yes, trucking gravel does. Well, I guess apparently that's crazy because it's funny because I wouldn't be mad at my kid for breaking a window for playing ball. He's fucking off or doing something but playing ball. But when I was a kid, I broke a window and my grandmother beat me with a broom handle for it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh my God.

[James Petragallo]

It was a baseball, for fuck's sake.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I didn't even throw the rock. Somebody else threw it, but I was with them.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, no.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And my mom had to pay half and she was.

[James Petragallo]

Live it, I bet. Shit. Big picture, window Grandma didn't know about grounding. She only knew about beating. They don't have grounding in Italy. Apparently they just beat you until you're. Until you're too sore to go anywhere and that's grounded.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I guess in Hitler times there probably wasn't much to take away.

[James Petragallo]

I was gonna say that's the other thing. Where she grew up and when she grew up, it was basically like being Amish. Like my old joke about gotta be hard to be an Amish parent because there's nothing to take away. That's the fucking. That was a premise of a joke and that's exactly what it is. Yeah. What are you gonna take away chores? What do you got? Nothing to take from these people. So Kathy's such a nice person too. Her friend talks about how this is. The friend's 10 year old sister was killed by a drunk driver in 1969. Holy. That's brutal. So shortly after this, the girl's father suffered a massive stroke that left him paralyzed on one side of his body.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

So Kathy was so nice. When she would come home from college, she would go over to visit this friend's father to like help him out for a few hours a day. Because she's just a nice girl. She's very nice.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She doesn't even believe in curses.

[James Petragallo]

That's nothing at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Never go up with her. No.

[James Petragallo]

That place is fucked, man. That place is a disaster. Her friend said she was everybody's friend. That's the way she was. Kathy. So they met each other. Kathy and Jim meet each other in high school, but they don't start dating until they're both in the same college. Oh, like, oh, you again. I remember you for my math class.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's go out in the halls.

[James Petragallo]

I already know you, so it's easy. Western University. Western Michigan University is where they went. They both lived in the Mount Clemens area which by the way is about 30 miles northeast of Detroit. But in high school didn't know each other very well. Hook up in college later. James also very active. And from his high school yearbook. Here I have his activities. Swimming, booster club, German club, key club, golf, council cadet and teacher assistant. He does.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's busy.

[James Petragallo]

That's a lot of. I did nothing in high school outside of go to class the minimal amount of time so they won't call your parents and get you in trouble. That's it. That's what I knew.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I did yearbook because. And I was a quote unquote photographer. And so I was able just to go walk. It was great.

[James Petragallo]

That's fun. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

That's still too. I wasn't gonna. That's still like. I would have had to know what room to go to. And like Sidecar.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I used a shitload of film.

[James Petragallo]

I bet. Yeah. Just making excuses to walk around and look at girls at that point when you're in high school. Yeah. So they went to Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo and basically Jim would sometimes drive her to and from campus on breaks because they're from the same town and that's how they ended up getting together. So they started dating. You know, you got about a half hour ride, a little time to talk. Probably more than more one on one time than you get with most people in college. So one of the first times after they started going out, Jim tried to come over to the house. Kathy invited him over, wanted to introduce him to the parents. She was kind of serious about him. Robert the gravel man said, quote, I threw him out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that right?

[James Petragallo]

Didn't go well. Robert said he came barefooted and I told him to go home and get a pair of shoes on. You gotta understand when this is, it's 1969, so we're talking Woodstock and like, I mean literally this is the time when kids walked around with no fucking shoes on all the time and shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And the older generation was having none.

[James Petragallo]

Of it, none of that. He didn't even want you to have Bob Dylan fucking sneakers on. They wanted you to have wingtips on. Never mind no shoes. Sneakers were considered. You fucking loser.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Put on some pleated pants. Way too high.

[James Petragallo]

What's wrong with you? Yeah, put on greaser. Put on a pair of pants. Pull it up to your sternum and go out and do something. What's wrong with you?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Headed to the sock off.

[James Petragallo]

Come on, you lazy bastard. So, yeah, so at the time, and Robert's not like a hippie type. I think he's just fitting in basically because he'll become an economist later on. Like he's a very much like a kind of a nerdy guy. He's not really. None of those clubs said hippie to you, did it? No, no, that doesn't scream none of those.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Freedom marijuana.

[James Petragallo]

I didn't see a macrame class in there or anything. Nothing. So Krausenek learned his lesson and then came over dressed properly and was like, oh, you don't fuck around with Robert Schlosser here. So then they said after that, once he came back with shoes on, then the family saw him as a fine young man, clean cut and quiet and kind to Kathy. So they were okay with him after that. Just needed to have some shoes on, that's all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Shoes. It's a big deal.

[James Petragallo]

It's a big deal, man. So back then, now, May 3rd, 1974, they're going to get married. So they're both about 22 at this point. This is right after college. They probably waited till they graduated college, which was kind of the thing to do back then. And how it went.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pretty rare to have kids too. I mean, unless you don't Go to college then.

[James Petragallo]

Unless you don't go to college. Or like, sometimes the woman would drop out to be in a family, whatever the fuck it was. But that was the way they did it back in the day. But, yeah, this is. Kids would meet in college, they'd wait till they graduate, then they'd get married. That was kind of what smart kids, quote, unquote, did back then. So they get married, they move to Colorado after they get married.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Great choice.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. They go to Fort Collins, Colorado, where Jim attended graduate school at Colorado State University and Kathy worked as an orthopedic therapist. Yeah, because he's got to get, like, a master's degree because he wants to be an economist and, you know, have a good job like that. April 15, 1978, a baby is born. Look at this. They have a baby girl named Sarah here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There we go.

[James Petragallo]

Not bad. So from 79 to 81, Jim teaches at Lynchburg College, Kentucky. Lynchburg. I think that's Kentucky. Virginia, actually.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Virginia. Lynchburg, Virginia.

[James Petragallo]

Lynchburg, Virginia. Yes. They moved to Lynchburg, Virginia, so he can teach there, where he teaches economics at Lynchburg College.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How about it?

[James Petragallo]

So that's what he's doing here. And I guess if you're going to get, like, a master's in economy, I guess that's what you would do if you don't work for a company. So they move to Lynchburg in 1979 from Colorado. They lived on Rittenhouse Street. And this is Kathy's sister. Annette lived with them for about a year. At the time, I don't know why. What she was doing, but she said, this is. The sister. Said that Kathy was just the best person in the world, which, I mean, it's her sister. What's she gonna say? She's a fucking filthy, skanky hua. Like, what are you gonna say about it so much? She's a bitch. She's a bitch with a bad. She's got a bathroom bad. Digestive system bad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We give her times a day.

[James Petragallo]

It's her own bathroom. Nobody even goes in there. They're like, oh, that's Kathy's. You don't want to go in there. Forget about it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's no paint on the walls.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, God. Keep the door closed. Don't let it out. Don't let the stink out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It rolls.

[James Petragallo]

You got weather stripping all on the top and bottom. Make sure it doesn't get out. So that's what it was. Her sister also. I'm sorry. This is her boss, who's the director of the Central Virginia Mental Health service where she worked. This is where Kathy worked. This woman said that Kathy knew so much about babies, pediatrics and occupational therapy. She was so talented. And that's the thing. Wherever Kathy works, she's very popular. She's very, you know, and also thought to be very competent and popular socially. And people like her. She's very magnetic. So she worked for Project Daniel from the fall of 79 until the spring of 1980. Now, the project officials wanted her to come back and work for them, but they said that she. They were never able to contact her after she left Project Daniel. The director said, I was concerned about her, couldn't get a hold of her. Meanwhile, it's because they moved.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not even in the state, man.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, so when she quit her job with Project Daniel, she did it because she said she wanted to spend more time with her daughter. And the woman said she kept saying her child was young and she didn't want to go into full time work yet. They kept calling her and bothering her. She told you she didn't want to do it. I want to be home with my family. Yeah, that's it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She gave you two weeks. She said, leave the fuck alone.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, a letter of resignation.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's the word.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, but if she says, my kid is a baby and I want to spend time with my baby, you know, you only get that one period. Leave her the fuck alone. Let her deal with your own bullshit. Jesus Christ, man. So now a friend of hers of Kathy's received a letter from her at one point and said she was very aware, really bright. She was a feminist. She believed strongly in raising her daughter. She talked a lot about having more children. So that's what she wanted to do. That's where she wanted to focus her energy on. Her friend described her as happily married. She said they made every decision they ever made together. They got along well. She was very outgoing, very sociable. And he's not bad either. He's not like a drag either. He's a decent guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's good.

[James Petragallo]

He's all right. She's described as having long blonde hair, being 5 foot 4 and weighing 100 pounds. Her friend said she was beautiful at the time. So she said she's very interested in life. She, quote, dabbled in everything. They did all sorts of shit. This is in the 70s. They did yoga together, which in the 70s there was only a few people doing yoga who weren't in a cult. In the 70s there was like cults that did yoga and that was it. Very few, like normal, just classes. It Was considered really out there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And some of it still is pretty.

[James Petragallo]

Fucking weird, but it's weird. But I mean now it's as mainstream as it gets. Now it's every suburban mom gets their.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Stupid math company makes a line that's just for yoga.

[James Petragallo]

Just for yoga. Yeah, that's considered normal and healthy now. So at the time considered aberrant behavior. So September of 81, this is when they thought to themselves that this job that Jim has here teaching just doesn't pay well enough. I don't know what Lynchburg College pays their like junior professors, but probably not a lot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He didn't look at the pay scale before he started.

[James Petragallo]

Well, I think, I think he just wanted a job and get his foot in the door somewhere.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just found what's the most high paid teaching job. And he was like, I can deal with that.

[James Petragallo]

I mean back then you couldn't Google it. All he could do is look for like people who needed people, you know, whatever. I don't even know what publications you'd look in to find a teaching job across the country. Who knows?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is there local, Is that in local papers? Did they.

[James Petragallo]

I don't know. Or maybe it's somebody that knew him. Said, I went to, I'm going to Lynchburg. They're looking for an economy professor. I don't know how it worked, but either way he said, I got to move to the corporate world and make some dough here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's where it is.

[James Petragallo]

I got a baby, I got my wife, I gotta make some money for us here. So in 1981, he answered an ad in the Wall Street Journal for a job. He's sitting in Virginia getting the Wall Street Journal probably a day late. Tomorrow's answering ads. Yeah, look at that. That's how you did it back.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Expecting a response. That's crazy.

[James Petragallo]

That's how you did it, Beck. There was no other choice. So he ends up getting a job at Kodak, which was headquartered in Rochester at the time. They buy a house on Del rio Drive for $92,000 in 1981. Yeah, that's an expensive house now. So that's a big deal, that house. Thousand dollars then probably, yeah, probably even a little more. That house as we'll talk about now. We'll see what it's worth now, later on, but it's a decent house here. So at this point, Jim, Cathy and 3 year old Sarah all moved to Brighton, which is nice upscale suburb. He's starting his new job as an economist for Kodak. They're like, this is it now we Start our life, you know what I mean? So Krasnok left the college to work for Eastman Kodak. And she said that somebody from the college who ran his department said he was well liked by everyone. An extremely nice person, very even tempered. I took a class from him. He was an excellent professor. So not bad here. The area they moved to in Brighton, their street is a very nice. All the lawns are manicured. It's very, very nice. Upscale street. Definitely not lower middle class or anything like that. It's nice now when they first get there. Kathy's pretty homesick.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, really?

[James Petragallo]

For Michigan. Actually not even for Virginia. For Michigan, because they've moved to Colorado, then Virginia, now here. She just wants to be back in Michigan. She talks about her family back in Michigan, her friends back in Michigan. What if we had all this in this nice house just in Michigan? That'd be so much better, basically. So they would put the family. They tried to. They did stuff together. They tried to get into it. The Krasnok couple, they would take walks together. They would bicycle with the kid. They played tennis and racquetball together. Oh, they were a very 80s couple playing racquetball. It sounds like it's right out of an 80s movie, doesn't it?

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's fascinating.

[James Petragallo]

Little white shorts on them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's two groups that play racquetball. It's like upscale, like people on their lunch break or it's the white trash people that go on Saturday morning. Yeah, yeah, that's where we went.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. And that's called handball. It's not even racquetball.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We played racquetball in those like rooms with like the fucking steel door that would slash. It was terrifying.

[James Petragallo]

Oh yeah, yeah. That's just a little box with a ball flying around at 300 miles an hour.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hottest shit in there.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yeah. Especially in Phoenix. So the friend of hers though, said Kathy was somewhat disillusioned with Rochester. She said, I think Kathy's disillusionment could be related to the fact that they moved in the fall and resided here throughout the winter. And due to the cold weather, that could account for some disenchantment. Yeah, that's a. Rochester has long winters. They're fucking long and they're brutal. And if you move there in October, you are in for it, man. You're not going to see the sun again till April. And it's brutal.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And it's a little bit east of there. Was that Albany? I guess from there that's way farther east. Is it? Is it?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Way far east. That's like three, four hours east.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But from there to like fucking South Dakota. That whole region.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Up there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Winter is long.

[James Petragallo]

It's long and it's. It's brutal. So that could, that would make sense where you'd be like, Jesus Christ, this is rough. So February 16, 1982. They've lived there less than a year. He's working at his job, Everything seems fine. The Kodak decides that. I don't know what made them prompted this, but they decide they're going to do a background check on all their employees. Just to see, you know, sometimes you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Got to keep an eye on some people.

[James Petragallo]

Let's make sure we don't have any fucking weirdos on our staff here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So we didn't do it when we hired you. We'll do it now.

[James Petragallo]

No, do it now. They do a full background check and they discover that Jim Krausenek did not complete his PhD from Colorado State University.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, no.

[James Petragallo]

He is one paper shy of completing his PhD.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petragallo]

Absolutely. So they find that out. Now they don't bring him in and fire him or anything like that. They probably tell him, get that paper done.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a good idea. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And you're fine because, you know, he comes home and goes to work the next day. It's like nothing happened. So it's not like I said, they don't threaten him. They don't tell him, you know, if you don't have it by this date, you're fired. It's none of that. They're just like, well, you know, we found that you need to have a PhD for this job. So go finish it up. That was that fine. So that's the 16th now February 18th, 1982. A couple days later, everything seems to be going fine. Not like he's been, like I said, hasn't been fired or anything like that. The Krausenex eat dinner at around 6:30pm okay. Meatloaf for James and Sarah. They have meatloaf three, four, four this almost four. Definitely meatloaf for them. And Kathy had egg salad on lettuce. There's a bowl of farts right there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That is a gal who is.

[James Petragallo]

Good Lord.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You guys have the meatloaf? I'll do my own thing.

[James Petragallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My own thing is gonna be crazy.

[James Petragallo]

It's gonna be gross. But that's like diet food back then. Egg salad on lettuce. Yeah, that's what people would eat if they were on a diet. Then they drove to the bank in the car, the lone family car, and they're going there to deposit Jim's checks. He's got some checks to deposit. Whole family loads up in the. It's February and upstate it's cold as shit. Why?

[Jimmy Whisman]

The whole family's load die together?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't know why you think it'd be like, yeah, I'm gonna go to the bank. I'll be back in a minute. Let's not load the kid up in the park in the stomach.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm brave. Northern New York in February.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it's weird, but they all go together. Maybe they want to spend time together, I don't know. So after a stop at a department and a drugstore, then they go to a nearby liquor store and purchase, quote, an alcoholic beverage with milk in it. I don't know what that is, but it sounds disgusting. How old are they at this point? Shit, 50 when they're 30, 25. 30. They're both 30? Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Whew.

[James Petragallo]

That's a brave choice. I mean, that is a lot of man. Think about, you have egg salad and lettuce already fucking swirling around in there. You're gonna add milky booze to it on top of that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Drop milk booze on top of that.

[James Petragallo]

Jesus, her stomach's gonna be a mess.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Turn that up.

[James Petragallo]

So at home, Kathy had a drink, I guess, of the boozy milk, and he had. Jim has two beers and he makes shrimp for Kathy as well. She eats some shrimp a little late now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's amazing.

[James Petragallo]

She's putting it away. And they put Sarah into their bed at around 10pm to go to sleep. They watch some TV, they relax in their library. They let their golden retriever, Amicus, out and then back in again. And then they go to bed around 11 o'clock after taking Sarah, putting her in her bed. Kathy goes to bed around 11. Jim still kicks around a little bit. He's in before midnight, some point.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's nauseous.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, she's got to go to bed early or else she's probably been shitting for the last three hours. So she's just like, man, I'm tired, I'm tired. I got to lay down. So then the next morning, February 19, 1982, around 6:30am, Jim leaves for work. And this is uncontested because he gets to work at a certain time and it takes that long to get there. So he had to have left his house by then. That's not contested at all. So he leaves. He puts amicus in the basement. I guess he does this every day. So the dog doesn't bark at everybody that jogs by or trucks that go by. Yeah. And wake everybody up. So he has his normal day at work, and then he returns home at about 4:50pm which is a little bit early because he's planning to take Sarah to a podiatry appointment.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

So there's that. Okay. He comes home, take the kid to the doctor. So he gets home, he gets there. He said right away the garage door was open, which he knows he closed it. And it's normally closed, but, I mean, who knows if, you know, Kathy opened it for some reason, forgot to close it. People forget to close shit. Who knows? Yeah. Who the hell knows out there? So then he said he walked around to the front of the house and saw broken glass by the front door. Oh, and their. Their window. Because it was one of those. It's one of those doors that has the windows with, like, little panes in it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

The pane closest. The lower right hand pane closest to the doorknob knob and the lock and everything is broken. And sitting next to the door is an ax. A mall, technically, this would be. So that's what's sitting next to the door. So like an ax with a big hard thing on the other side.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That is terrifying.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. So if you get home from work and your wife and daughter are supposed to be in there, and you see an axe sitting next to the door, and the door broken and shit, and the garage door was open, you might freak out a little bit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's like the start of a scary movie. The door is broken. Your wife and children are inside. Here's an axe. Arm yourself. I've probably got something bigger.

[James Petragallo]

That's the fucking thing, too. Because also he's got like. Yeah, you come home and you go, well, I mean, if he just lived by himself, he'd see that. Probably just call the cops. You know what I mean? But if your wife and kid are in there, you know, you. You have to go in there and see and make sure everything's okay. Yeah, you have to. That's part of it. I mean, that's just minimal adult bravery you have to do. No matter what, you have to go in and try. So he runs upstairs to try because nobody's on the first floor. He doesn't see anybody. So he goes, oh, fuck. There's some stuff's a little messier than it usually is, which is weird. And he'll deal with that in a minute. But he runs up the steps and runs into the master bedroom where he finds Kathy. She's still in bed. And she has a two and a half foot ax embedded in her skull.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's not the way to sleep.

[James Petragallo]

And I'm the crime scene pictures. It is, it's embedded where like the handle is sticking out straight. It's not leaning down. The ax is fully stuck in her head. Like you put it in a piece of wood to leave it there for tomorrow. Fucking horrifying. She lay on her right side, her arms pulled up toward her chest like she's sleeping, like fetal kind of. You curl up, blonde hair, bloody all over the pillow there. They said the killer had swung the ax with such force that the blade passed three and a half inches into her brain. That's a lot. Your skull's hard. There's a lot there. I mean that is full on wood cutting swing that they took, man. They believe that she was asleep when she died. She never saw it coming.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just one swing.

[James Petragallo]

It's stuck in her fucking head. Yeah, that's it. Boom. Stuck in the head. So obviously Jim's next thought is, where the fuck is my daughter? Yeah, there's two people here, right? So he freaks out, runs in, goes to Sarah's room and she's sitting on her bed completely fine. She's fine, Completely fine. I'm. I'm suspicious of her right now. Listen, kid, that's a bad little girl. You don't know. No, she's sitting up on her bed just doing her thing. She dressed herself. She's wearing two sweaters, One's on backwards, she's got three pairs of socks on. She doesn't know how to dress herself. So he freaks out, grabs his baby and runs out of the house as fast as he can. He runs next door to his neighbor's house or across the way to his neighbor's house across the street. And the neighbor said when he came home a little before five, he found the back door broken and went into the house, found his wife, grabbed the daughter and ran out. They said. The neighbor said that he came to the door clutching Sarah in his arms with a look of terror on his face, which I would hope so at that point. If he came over casual, like he was going to borrow some fucking salt, that would be crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a different story.

[James Petragallo]

So he came to her, to the door. She said. She answered the door, she said, I saw Jim standing in the doorway clutching Sarah in his arms. I saw that Jim was drained of all color and he had a look of terror on his face and that he could not stop looking over at his house.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, I would Never stop looking at it.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Oh, Jesus. So the neighbor asked, did something happen to Kathy? Is she okay? And Jim. And then she said, is she hurt? Is she dead? The neighbor's going through like a list of things that could possibly be wrong. And Jim replied, I think so. Her body is limp. That's what she told the neighbor. Then she called police and said that she looked at Jim and she said he appeared to be going into shock. He was starting to lose it, she said, though he kept quietly asking Sarah whether she was okay. And that the neighbor said every time Sarah spoke, he would cry and hug and kiss her. And neighbor said, I also heard Sarah say to Jim, I'm glad you came home early today, Daddy. Yeah, I guess so. So Sarah was in the house all day with her mother's body down the hall at 4 when her father walked in, curled up in bed with her clothes on, just doing her thing. She's three and a half. So the neighbor calls 911, obviously, and the cops get there very quick. They start arriving at 5:03.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

Upscale suburban neighborhood with a death call. They are there for that shit quickly. So they start arriving. They note that nothing is taken from the house, they said, and also both the axe embedded in the skull and the maul outside the door are both property of the Krassenaks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There it is.

[James Petragallo]

They're from the garage or out back. One of the two.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So somebody either came empty handed or.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, something decided that was the way to go. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more from our wonderfully fashionable friends over at Quint's. The holidays are here. Winter's here. I like it. I like being cozy. I like the fire. I like blankets. It's wonderful when it comes to winter, it's like survival of the fittest. And I'm willing to do or buy whatever I can do to stay cozy. I'm gonna be cozy whether you like it or not out there. Everybody telling you for the ultimate cold weather necessities made from premium materials. You gotta check out quints. We like quince. I love the stuff I got from Quince. I got a really cool jacket that I'm wearing happily during this wintertime. Jimmy got his fleece pants. Keeping cool right now. Doing well out there in Arizona.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Keep me warm next to next to an electric fireplace.

[James Petragallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

You create an account, Thrive Market asks the right questions and automatically builds a grocery cart tailored to your needs filled with healthier alternatives for your favorite brands. So then you can just adjust it, add or remove items before checking out. So many cool stuff, so many cool items in there and stuff that I didn't know you could even make. Delicious. And they make it delicious and it's really good. Ready for a junk free start to 2025, head to thrivemarket.com Small Town Murder and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's Thrive T H R I V market.com Smalltown Murder Thrive market.com Smalltown Murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

For thousands of years, explorers the world over searched for and told tales of a mythical fountain said to restore one's youth and cure anything. Uh, newsflash, it was never found. But hey, we found the next best Ancient Nutrition collagen supplements.

[James Petragallo]

While it's not a miracle, it is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Proven to be pretty darn good at helping you look and feel younger and more healthy. Ancient Nutrition's mission is to create high quality supplements that combine the best of ancient wisdom and modern science. Their multi collagen Advanced lean supplement contains 10 types of collagen from 10 real food based sources. This formula is powered by clinically studied ingredients that promote fat loss and healthy weight management as well as building lean muscle.

[James Petragallo]

Right now, Ancient Nutrition is offering 25%.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Off your first order when you go to ancientnutrition.com wondery that's ancientnutrition.com wondery for 25% off your first order.

[James Petragallo]

Ancientnutrition.com wondery so she had been killed by a single blow to the head with an ax. They said that she was struck with an ax, one blow, and that was it is the quote from the police officer there. They said, we feel she was killed sometime prior to 9:30am she was still in her bed, still in her night clothes. She had no appearance of having been gotten out of bed. So that makes sense. They said the police in their statement said that Sarah spent the day in her own bedroom. She went into the bedroom where her mother was during the day also to look for her, and she said that she just dressed herself. Now, the police, they have, they say, you know, obviously the press is like, who are you looking for for this?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right?

[James Petragallo]

And they said that they have no suspects, but they're not ruling anyone out or looking at everything, trying to put things in place. They speak to Jim for about five or six hours that night. And the detective who interviewed him said he would go from being very deliberate with his answers to very emotional or he would cry a little bit, which is not out of the ordinary. No, I think that's very ordinary explaining stuff. Then when the load of it hits you, then you're upset and you get your shit together for a little bit. Over the course of six hours, you could go in and out of that a lot. So he said that he saw the first floor and the broken glass. And he said, I called for my family, didn't get any answer. He said, I ran up the stairs and went into the bedroom. Kathy was in bed in our room and she had been struck in the head with a long handled axe. I saw the back of her head. I did not touch my wife. Okay. But she said she was limp, which I don't know how he would know she was limp at that point. That's weird. And she wouldn't be limp anyway. By now she'd be in rigor, probably. So I don't know if she'd come out of it by now that many hours. Yeah, so they said Sarah had a red sweater over a pink sweater with a blue ABC corduroy pants and two pairs of socks. He said, I was gonna say, this kid's got fashion sense. Yeah, she said. Jim said, she looked dazed to me. I picked her up from her bed and ran downstairs and out the front door with her. So Krasnok's parents, Jim's parents, drive in from Michigan, arriving at the police station around midnight to support him. Police Suggest after hours of talking and he's got the kid there and everything else they say, listen, why don't you and Sarah go with your parents to a hotel and get some sleep and then come back at 8:30 in the morning and we'll finish this, we'll talk more about this. So everyone said, okay, that's great, see you at 8:30 tomorrow. And everybody left, but the detective said he never came back. They said the family checked out of the hotel that morning and drove to Michigan.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gotta go.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, which is not a good, that's not a good start here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, I guess that's him saying, I'll tell him about it another time.

[James Petragallo]

I mean, I think that's pretty important to talk now. Probably for this. It is like homicide detectives, you know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They probably think or he probably.

[James Petragallo]

They'll understand, they'll figure it out. Yeah, I don't know. So they're wondering, is this a burglary? Is this what happened? So they said there were indications of burglary at the house. The detective said, they said behind the house they found a wood splitting maul that had been used to shatter the glass inside. The detective described it as one of the most sterile crime scenes he'd ever seen, which is interesting. They're unable to find any forensic clues. No fingerprints, nothing like that. They did find what they said what they thought looked like evidence of a staged burglary. They said. They said there were valuable items scattered across the dining room floor, including Kathy's purse and a tea set. Oh, so like a silver tea set. Like you know, whatever. Like they said there was like a plastic bag there. A black plastic like lawn bag. Yeah, and like that shit in a pile in the middle, like someone was going to put that stuff in the plastic bag type of deal. They said Kathy's purse was nearby also with its contents strewn across the carpet. You can see this in the crime scene photos. There is a pile of shit, candelabras and all that shit, and then the tea set and then her purse is there with shit coming out of it. So they said nothing appeared stolen though. This was in the dining room on the first floor. They found this stuff. So at first they said they thought it was a burglary, but then they said everything seemed too neat. They said upstairs, downstairs, there was money, there was jewelry laying out in plain sight. Things that a burglar would just swipe on the way and stuff in their pockets. So they said it's interesting. They said, quote, we didn't find anything taken from the house all the indications of a burglary seem to be set up. So that's interesting. So now they think that there's a staged burglary involved in this murder. So now they start to focus their attention on Jim. They go, why would a stranger stage a burglary? That's the main question they have. So February 19th, the day after the murder here, they said there was an absence of fingerprints in the house. Now we're not talking an absence of weird fingerprints, aberrant fingerprints. They said they checked the entire house, everything in it, the axe, the walls, the doors, the doorknobs. They didn't find a single fingerprint, not even any belonging to the Krausenek family.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Family doesn't have any fingerprints.

[James Petragallo]

They had their smooth, just smooth fingered people. These people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Or they're just wiping shit down. That's crazy.

[James Petragallo]

Imagine wiping down all your doorknobs all the time. Even like the sink in the, in the, you know, when you touch the sink, the toilet bowl, fucking plunger, like none of that stuff, the handle, you know, the flusher there. There'd be prints on something. They said, though, nothing. The detective said it was like nobody lived there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Even Sarah was out all day by herself. She didn't leave any fingerprints on anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's good.

[James Petragallo]

So they say. The police say the killer may have worn gloves, but they didn't find any discarded gloves at the scene. Well, I mean, outside of oj, most people don't leave their murder gloves at the scene. Usually don't stick around here somewhere. You throw that out somewhere else. They even took apart the tub and the sinks, checking for blood in the traps and shit like that because they find that a lot. They found nothing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hmm.

[James Petragallo]

Now it's hard to blame Jim at this point because Jim went to work.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

So he would definitely have had to take a shower after that to go to work. So there would be blood in the drain, probably, you know what I mean? In the traps. So in the garage they did find a piece of carpet that had been removed from the first floor bathroom, washed and draped over a stroller to dry. But they don't know how long it's been there. That could have been there for weeks. They have no fucking idea. So they said the carpet and the liquid in the drains were sent to a laboratory for analysis, but got nothing out of that. Nothing at all. No old blood, no anything. No bleach, nothing. No, that's. I mean, no signs of COVID up or anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Drain water. That's it.

[James Petragallo]

That's it. So the detectives, the One sort of clue they have is a faint shoe print inside the trash bag near the tea set on the ground. It's a very faint. Just a shoe print of, you know, if the shoe was a little dusty and you stepped on it and you leave an impression and it's of. They said it's very specific to a boat shoe. Okay. Like a specific kind of boat shoe. They found a pair of boat shoes that belong to Jim in the house that they say may have matched up, but they don't take them in for evidence at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Brilliant.

[James Petragallo]

Well, they don't grab those for later and to compare them. They don't do that. They just take a picture of the boat shoes sitting on the carpet, not their tread on the bottom. Nothing. There they are. There's boat shoes. This is not the best police investigation going here. Not good. So they set up roadblocks and interview people at every home on the street and streets nearby. No one reported seeing an intruder or any sign of trouble. Later on, they'll talk to a lady who has a much different story because she wasn't home when they went around canvassing here. So the authorities also now they travel to Michigan, to Colorado, to Virginia to talk to people who knew the Krausenax to try to figure out if James did this or not. They also check similar killings around the country to see if there's any connection. Nothing there, they say. So February 19, 1982, they interview Sarah. She's three and a half years old. This is, if you ever watched an interrogation, a three and a half year old. This is not the environment for them as far as. As far as getting anything out of them. You know, it's not going to work. So they do get out of her that she said she saw, quote, a bad man in the house. And she said he had a hammer in his head, the bad man in his head. Then she said it was an ax in his head that he had. Oh, she also described the man's face because they said, well, what color was he? Was he. Because they're getting a description. Was he big? Was he short? Was he fat? Was he tall? Is he white? Is he. Is he like him? Is he like me?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And she described his face as, quote, many colors.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's just super trouble at hr.

[James Petragallo]

Super diverse. That's what she's all about. Yeah. She's like, he was a man of many colors. That's what he was gonna get me. Not me. I'm not going to HR tomorrow. Fuck that shit. So the. The. The detective had their Own interpretation of this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

They decide that Sarah was not seeing a man in the house, a bad man, as described. She was just seeing her dead mother covered in blood. And that's the many faces and the ax in her head.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Christ.

[James Petragallo]

Meanwhile, she said she saw a bad man walking around.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Which is. Her mother wasn't ever walking around. She never got up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So this dark thing just to see too and see what she's projecting.

[James Petragallo]

That's fucked up. So it seems to me like probably she saw a bad man and also saw her mother and is just conflating them together because she's three. She's just mixing the shit up all together. But she probably saw both, I would imagine. Then it comes out. There's an article in the newspaper and everything saying this is a cursed house. That's the problem. It's the house's fault. It's practically poltergeist over here. That's the problem here. Because Kathy is the third person to die in this house since 1977.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that right?

[James Petragallo]

The second person to die in that bedroom. Exactly where that bed was, by the way, too. But the reason is, it's not like somebody. They were murdered or anything like that. There was an elderly couple who owned the house at the time. They died of asphyxiation there in 1977. Yeah. The wife was found dead in the exact same bed, in the exact same placement of the bed and everything in the bedroom, whereas her husband was found downstairs in a chair, dead. The police found that they were overcome by fumes of their car. The wife had gone out shopping, came home and left the car running in the attached garage and killed them both.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I've never heard of that before.

[James Petragallo]

I've heard of that a lot, actually.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On accident.

[James Petragallo]

A lot. Yes, there was. It happens. It's more common now, actually.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petragallo]

Because cars are quiet now and they have the buttons and not the keys. So you used to. You'd take your keys out and then go unlock your door.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That motherfucker's off that way. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Now you press the button. There's no keys. So some people forget to press the button. The cars are quiet. They're not all jerky like a 1981 Buick or anything. So this happens. It's so common now that this happens.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And it's crazy, too, how far your key can get away from that car. And it stays running, still goes running. It doesn't go into gear and try to take off it. That'll shut it off. But.

[James Petragallo]

But if you go into your house, into your kitchen, I Left a car.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Run into my driveway for like an hour and a half on accident.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah, it happens. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But not.

[James Petragallo]

We've done it too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In the garage.

[James Petragallo]

Garage, luckily. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

I mean, but that's the thing. It could, it could very easily happen because you're still breathing. Yeah. Your whole family hasn't been killed, so that's good. So that's a very. That's a big risk out there right now. That happens a lot. So February 20th. Now this is when the autopsy is done and Jim goes back to Michigan and he spoke to investigators again and agreed to another meeting with investigators the afternoon of the 20th. But when the time came, Jim and Sarah already were gone back to Michigan again. So they've gone back and forth to Michigan several times. The medical examiner concluded, shockingly, that the cause of death was an ax wound to the head.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Great policeman.

[James Petragallo]

I very rarely think that I can do medical things because I'm an idiot, but I could have probably found the cause of death there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

One injury and she's not.

[James Petragallo]

One injury and she's not. Oh, and her whole brain is bisected by an axe. Yeah, I'm gonna go with ax to the head. Yeah, probably what's going on here. But I mean, she wasn't poisoned beforehand or anything like that?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, I mean, she tried to, but she did. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. And basically they, they find that the. With her food, with her goddamn dinner. They find that they think she died around from 6:30 to 9:30am okay. Which. That's one thing in like crime technology and medical technology that has not improved. The best they can still give you is a three hour window. That's the best they can do. Now to this day, 45 years after.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This, they're gonna end up having to find some enzyme that our body secretes during something that. That wasn't there. How would we know if it was when it got in it?

[James Petragallo]

That's. I mean, the factors are so. It's so hard to tell. So a neighbor of the Krausenack said that she heard a moaning sound around 1 or 2 in the morning, the morning of the killing. No one's allowed to fuck in this neighborhood, by the way, apparently.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why are you listening to everybody? Fucking lady.

[James Petragallo]

I'll tell the cops about it. And then followed quickly thereafter by a dog barking. And the cops go, the Krasnoks have a dog. Which, it's a suburban street. You know how many people probably have a fucking dog on the street? Probably 80% of the people on the street have a dog. I bet Just saying. So this is not, you know, real exclusive to them. So the authorities, though, they cannot prove that Jim had been home at the time of the murder because the time of death is put at 6:30 to 9:30. And we know he left for work at 6:30 and he showed up without any brain or blood on him or anything like that and he wouldn't have time to clean up. So yeah, they don't really have anything they can do here with Jim. Their hands are kind of tied. So they talk to Jim again and Jim says that Thursday night before the murder, the family ran errands. Him and his wife had dinner, had some wine. They were in bed by midnight. I was in bed by midnight. I think Kathy went to bed about 11. So they said they were unable to confirm that he spent the night in bed with his wife. They couldn't confirm that. They said. They said we didn't find the normal things, hairs and things you would expect to find on his side. So he's not shedding. So what? Leave the guy alone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

There's also no goddamn fingerprints anywhere. So the family. He said that he kept saying, I left for work at about 6:30am, returned at 5. There's Kathy at 10 to 5. So I don't know what to tell you. They said that the autopsy shows her body was slightly warm to the touch and in full rigor when they got there. The body temperature and an examination of her organs prompted the medical examiner to, you know, give the time of death between 6:30 and 9:30 and we'll find there's a. Various estimates of this later on. They said, this is Krausenek. Later on. His people say from the initial stages of the investigation, the time of death was of paramount concern to the investigators. It was largely indisputable that James had left his home at approximately 6:30am and spent the entire day at Kodak. Can't dispute that he showed up. There's other people there. So we know when he got there. They said if the cops said if the time of death were before he left for work, obviously that would be inculpatory. On the other hand, if the time of death included the time when he already left for work, it would exculpate him. So there you go, the stomach contents. And this is a big deal. The autopsy shows Kathy's stomach contents. You'd think it would just be gross. All sorts of shit and it doesn't belong together. Mixing around.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a volcano in.

[James Petragallo]

Her stomach was completely empty.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How'd she do that?

[James Petragallo]

And her blood was free of alcohol.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm more trust. Yeah, well, I mean, that takes a while, but if you can do it.

[James Petragallo]

That just indicates passage of time. Yeah, passage of time and your body obviously stops digesting if you're dead. So there you go. Yeah, there you go. And they estimated then that that could mean a later time of death even. They also said that her not only is her stomach empty, her bladder is completely full, which they said would indicate that she had a full night's sleep for her stomach to empty and her bladder to be completely full. This probably didn't happen at 1 in the morning, you know what I mean? It just wouldn't happen like that. So that's another thing. Now they said they have no evidence against Jim, no clear motive, but goddammit, are they suspicious of him? Sure enough, super suspicious. There's no evidence though, so they cannot arrest him, they cannot arrest anybody. And this case goes cold. Goes cold, Freaks the neighborhood out. I mean, this is like in their minds, some crazed lunatic came to their neighborhood, broke into someone's house and put a fucking ax in their head. And that could happen to any of them. So this is typical suburban panic here after this. But you know, they just. That's it. They don't know what to do. Jim and Sarah move out west. They move to a couple different places. They'll end up in Washington for a while. They're in Michigan, as we'll talk about. Yeah, they said that they hired a lawyer also Jim's family. And the lawyer told police that anytime you want to talk to Jim, I mean, I'm there too. You've talked to him ten fucking times and you've got nothing. And you're not going to railroad my client, basically. So they said that the condition also for an interview would be no statement made by Jim could be used against him in any way. Which is not how they do interrogations. And no one's going to agree to that. So. And the detectives said we weren't willing to do that because we still had too many unanswered questions. That's basically if they didn't think he did it, that's the way for the lawyer to find out what they're thinking. Because if they didn't think he did it, they'd be like, fine, great, we don't think he did it, we just need information. But if they say no, no, no, then that means that they're suspicious of your client. So that was a way to suss out how they feel here. So that's it. He doesn't talk to them anymore after that. They don't want to talk to him with the lawyer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Want to anyway.

[James Petragallo]

No. So shortly. Now, during the investigation, one of the things that made them very suspicious of Jim was that shortly after the murder, police learned that Jim had not completed the final portions of his doctorate and had lied to both Lynchburg College and Kodak about that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Okay. So they say that they think their big fucking theory of this case is that Kathy became. She found out about this and lost her mind. Does that sound relevant? Does that sound probable, plausible to you? Yeah, that doesn't sound like what would happen. That sounds like the. If your spouse and you told them that, they'd be like, oh, well, how do we save your job? Would be first. How do we do this? Because, you know, this is how we pay bills and eat and shit. So I eat weird foods that make me shit weird. So please help me out here. So I don't know what the fuck is going on here. Kathy, usually your spouse isn't, like, against you, like your job. If you get in trouble at work, your spouse doesn't. You're not in trouble with them, too. They're usually on your side. That's the point. You fucking married these people. So they don't think so, though. They think Kathy became aware of the lie, freaked out, and Jim had no choice but to murder her while she slept, which really seems like a stretch for me.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And then head on off to work.

[James Petragallo]

Then head off to work and act like nothing happened all day. Then come on home for the podiatry appointment. It's very weird shit here. They really, really, really, really want to talk to Jim, though. February 20, 1983. There's a newspaper article about this, and Jim says he'll talk to the press, but he won't talk to the cops. Yeah, Jim says that he wants to forget that night completely, that whole day when he came home. He said he's trying to put it out of his mind. And he said that he's refused to talk to the police since last March. He said, I understand the police have their jobs to do. I appreciate that, but it's too difficult for me to talk about it. That's what he said. He was at this point working at his father's carpet store in Michigan when the press are talking to him. And they said he's neatly dressed in a blue blazer and red silk tie. They said his eyes became filled with tears as he begins to tremble when asked about his wife's death. He says, I just Want to put it all behind me now? I'd really rather not discuss it. It's hard enough for me to deal with. I don't see how other people would want to hear about it. He said, it's been my decision, my policy not to talk. I'd rather stick to my policy. Store policy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sorry, gotta talk to the manager, man. I can't override it.

[James Petragallo]

Fuck. Can't do it, man. You gotta talk to my dad. He's the one who owns it. So they said that neither the lawyer nor the police will reveal the conditions at the time for an interview, which we found out later and I told you about. They said the police, though, in their investigation have many unanswered questions they believe only Jim can answer. One of the homicide detectives said, we don't have the privilege of talking to him. We'd still like to talk to him very, very much. He's a primary witness. He's allegedly the last person who saw his wife alive. We'd like to know more of what transpired. Transpired the preceding day, that. That night. What happened the night before, which we have a general idea, because they went to three different stores and they were doing shit. So they believe that. Invested that interviewing Krausnick can help lead them to an arrest. But they're unwilling to conduct an interview under conditions. They said there's no law, obviously, that states an individual has to talk to the police. You don't have to talk to anybody. So the only way they can force him would be to subpoena him to testify before a grand jury, they said. In New York State, however, an individual who testifies before a grand jury is given immunity from prosecution in that case, unless they waive that. Right. So if they want him to test, if they want to talk to him, they got to subpoena him for a grand jury. And at that point, they can't charge him with anything or use anything he said against him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now, it's all complicated.

[James Petragallo]

So. Yeah, so they said, we've elected not to subpoena Mr. Krauseneck because that, like, automatically gives him immunity. They said, we don't want to give him immunity in the case, just in case. They also said they wanted to have a child psychologist talk with Sarah, but Jim wouldn't allow it. Because you can twist anything from a kid. I mean, you can twist a kid's words. You can make a kid believe something that they. There's a lot of tons of. You can. You can push a kid into thinking anything and saying anything. That's the problem. With that. So I don't think I would let my daughter do that either without having my people there to help out. That happens a lot. They said a little more time spent with her and we probably would have been able to get more information. But as time passed, it certainly wouldn't have been beneficial to the child's welfare to pursue questioning. They think she probably forgot. They said the. It's. The case is open and they're pursuing active leads. The one cop said, I was very optimistic in the beginning. I'm a little pessimistic now. But this case will never be closed. It will remain open. There's always a chance that someday this individual may slip up, meaning the killer here. So, yeah, this is. And like I said, while this is going on, it is complete fucking panic in the neighborhood. Complete panic. The people in the streets are talking to the cops or talking to the press. And one resident said, we just want to forget the whole thing and go on with our lives. But they said, this is a tragedy that rocked our community. When you see the figure of a female lying in bed with an ax in her head, you don't just want to walk out of there and forget it ever happened. So they said local hardware stores are selling deadbolt locks and security systems. And police stations are flooded with calls, not with information, but with. With questions of, have you arrested anybody for that yet?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get them.

[James Petragallo]

Get them. Let's go. So they said it was just a brutal thing and they're all terrified now. At the time, Jim goes back to Michigan. They still own the house. Oh, okay. So a young couple In August of 1982, this is fucking. A few months after this happened, they leased the house from Krasnok with an option to buy. We'll go shit 200 bucks off the murder house. Fuck it, let's do it. Wow, that's a couple that's looking for a bargain right there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a couple on the budget.

[James Petragallo]

That's some bargain hunting. Yeah, they looked around for murders that took place, and they were like, there we go. Once they get the blood out of the master, I think this is going to be beautiful. We could do this. So, yeah, they said they were working out a deal to buy the house from him because, I mean, Jim just wants rid of this place. Basically, a psychological profile of the killer is sent for. Basically, they go to Quantico. If you've seen Mindhunter, this is exactly what they were doing. This is the profiler department here. And so they have a profile. They won't release it or say anything about it. They just say that the detective said it's a piece of evidence that I have in case this case comes to trial. So they're going to keep it and if it tends to match up, happens to match up with a suspect later, they'll use it in trial. But if they put it out now, then that would be bad if it doesn't match up to the person who actually did it. So they're just going to sit on it. So Jim and Sarah had moved to St. Clair, Michigan. Kathy's buried there. Jim worked for his father's store. He gets remarried in 1986, but is divorced nine months later. So, whoops, he was just trying to find something to latch on to somebody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You know, somebody, somebody. He told somebody about it and then eventually they were like, look, it's, it's enough, you got to get beyond this.

[James Petragallo]

Or he just married somebody that he didn't really like because he wanted to get a female figure for Sarah. And he was trying, he's trying to rebuild his family basically, you know, trying to make, make it out of something. Then they end up moving to Washington state, Jim and Sarah all the way out west near his sister and brother in law. And his parents also bought a home in Washington with plans to retire there. So it's just going to be a. They're going to move their whole brood from Michigan out to Washington basically. And so the case, though little progress, the police, they still keep doing things. They travel back to St. Clair, Michigan in 1984 and 1985. The latter trip was trying to get an interview with Sarah and that was unsuccessful. They said no. Then in 1986, a DA named Howard Rellin consulted the Monroe County Medical examiner, Dr. Nicholas Forbes. Forbes estimated that depending on the rate the body cooled that she could have died as early as 5:55am who knows? They're like, can you give us maybe 6:30 is tough.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Can you just.

[James Petragallo]

If we could get it back to six, then we could put another suspect in here. But he said there's no precise way to determine time of death. This is all a big guessing game. So they said at this point James is the only suspect. And they determined that his guilt could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt just by saying that she could have died as early as 555. They have no other evidence, so no physical evidence. So the case is very, very cold now. They kind of just give up on it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It got colder, colder.

[James Petragallo]

It sits cold as a fucking brightened night in February. So they kind of put it on the shelf, basically. I mean, those cases are always active if someone comes forward, but there's no one actively working it. Probably 1988, the matter was reviewed periodically. Apparently, probably once a year, they do a sweep through cold cases just to say they did it, basically. So in 1988, the Brighton Police sought to educate younger officers in the case details, as officers working the case originally had. Starting to retire now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right, right.

[James Petragallo]

So they need to get everyone familiar with it. The file was also updated as Brighton police learned new information, such as, you know, when Jim changed residences or got married. They would note that in the file as well. They said leads occasionally came in and were investigated, but there was never anything useful that came. So 1991 comes around, nine years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's.

[James Petragallo]

They've never. It's a long fucking time. They've never made an arrest. They've never even established a fucking motive, even for Jim. They don't have a motive. They didn't have a bunch of insurance or anything like that. They weren't fighting. They weren't about to get divorced. Fighting over the kid. Literally no reason. It's not like. And also, it's not like he had a girlfriend. They found out and they were together a week later. He was not. Didn't have a girlfriend. There's literally zero reason to murder your wife with an axe here. So that's what's a little bit weird. So family members in Michigan by 1991 are complaining to the press, to the police, to anyone that'll listen, that the investigation is targeting Jim. Still, without any evidence, nine years later, they won't let this. Leave this poor fucking man alone is basically what his side's saying. So Krasnik never spoke publicly about anything since 1983 when he talked to the cops. Now they talked to him in 1991 here, sitting outside Seattle. 1991, sitting in Seattle, I assume in a flannel shirt, fresh from a Soundgarden show. He's just sitting there. He's only 39, so maybe tired, real tired.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Washing all night.

[James Petragallo]

It's been a rough one. Yeah, it was a Pearl Jam Soundgarden double bill. It was really tough over there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holy.

[James Petragallo]

So he says still he has no theory about how or why his wife was killed. He said, you wrestle with that for so long and finally you just give up trying to figure it out. There's no logic in it, he said. He said, you know, hopefully there's no statute of limitations. He said, hopefully they'll find somebody, maybe. And he said that the only reason he agreed to discuss this case with the newspaper was. He thought maybe an article would jog someone's memory or something and they would find something. They talk about that. He hasn't allowed Sarah to be interviewed without his consent, which, you know, he's. She's a minor, so she can't. So she said that. He does say that Sarah, who was 12 at this time, did have independent memories of her mother's death. She does remember it, but. Yeah, he says, I think Sarah knows what happened to her mom. She was there that day. It's not something we talk about very often. I think she has her own way of thinking about it. She's had to figure out her own way of dealing with it. Yeah, that's tough. Now, Kathy's sister, Annette, the one that stayed with them for a year in Virginia, she's a social worker in Detroit, and she has ideas about who it is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

She says, quote, I think it was just some crazed psycho, either mistaken identity or high on drugs, who broke in and probably doesn't remember to this day what happened. So he'll never confess.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

She said, kathy has no enemies. She led an almost perfect life. There was no reason for anyone to kill her. True. And relatives. And this is. This is interesting, not only Jim's relatives, but Kathy's relatives also complain that the investigation seemed to focus only on Jim, and they don't believe he did it. So they're like, you're wasting your fucking time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And her dad's got to feel so guilty because he's the one that told him to put shoes on.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. I mean, if he didn't put shoes on, none of this ever happened. So she says, this is. Annette says, I still believe that the police needed someone to point a finger at to get the general public off their back. I'm speaking on behalf of my whole family when I say we're still behind Jim 100%.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

So that's the Schlosser family. But the detectives said that they're upset that the family hasn't cooperated fully with them. He said, I guess my big. This is a ridiculous statement, by the way, because it's nine years later. Quote, I guess my biggest disappointment in the whole case is the lack of participation by the victim's family. They have never banged on my desk, hollered at me, wanted something done. Do we have to? You're a fucking homicide detective.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

You got.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You get a paycheck. You need cheerleaders, too.

[James Petragallo]

You put the files up there and you're like, whoever comes in and yells at Me, I'll go investigate that case next. The fuck are you talking about? This is a self motivated fucking business here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

CD Lamb has chicks dressed in really short skirts and pom poms making his day.

[James Petragallo]

What if she didn't? What if she didn't have any family? Then what? You just go, hey, fuck it. Cool. It's a freebie for us. Throw it on the shelf and never look at it again. Fuck these people. What are we talking about? Yeah, it's fucking crazy. So Annette Schlosser says, quote, would it make it, would it make the police feel better if we went down there and pounded on the door? Is that their way of telling us you're protecting Jim?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

Which is basically yes. Asked if he resented the way the police have conducted their investigation on everything, Jim said, quote, maybe they're misdirected, but who knows, Maybe that's part of their job. Which is very reasonable. It's a very reasonable statement. Jim said he was working in the lumber industry at this point. And he said the killing has changed his priorities. He said parenthood has become the most important thing in life. He said that was kind of Kathy's job before and now it's kind of my job. Well, it was kind of your job then too and still is, is really the way it works. He said, I don't think about it often, but that's something I think about that I owe to her. Okay. Is to take care of their daughter. Yeah, I would say so. Jim, other family here, you know, they said they're sad. Kathy's family talks about this. Kathy's brother in law said it's. It would certainly help just to finish kind of finish things. And her sister Annette said, of course I want justice and I'd want to see that person go through the same kind of cruelty that he or she put Kathy through. But I think if the killer has to was to come up now, it would make it very difficult. I don't know if it would be better or worse.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Whack him in the head with an ax.

[James Petragallo]

Well, I think it's been over 10 years. So they're like, you know, the wounds are healing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Is it going to just make it, is it going to help? It's not going to help us much. And it's just going to be now years of this and court and appeals and there's going to be a lot of shit. So who knows? They're thinking maybe it's better if it just all goes away and we try to forget it. Sure. 1997, Jim meets his current wife, Sharon. He talks to her. An old friend of his, actually known her for years, named Sharon James. They were at a trade show. They ran into each other, and they date from 97 to 99 and get married in 1999. Now, from 1992 to 1999, 2000, a lot of things change. Number one, Jim gets remarried and all that kind of thing. Kathy's sister now has completely changed her mind. Oh, completely changed her mind from 100%.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Behind him to how much behind him?

[James Petragallo]

Zero percent now. Zero, absolutely. Now he's 100% against him. Now she now says he had motive to commit murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Which I'm still wondering about that. They said that she and her family believe that Kathy discovered her husband had lied to her, his employer, and that's what caused the whole thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petragallo]

She said my sister Kathy was all about education. Yeah, yeah. Way more than. Way more than feeding her daughter and all that kind of stuff. It's, you know, way more than the rest of the stuff in life. She just cared that you had a doctorate. That was it. She was all about social status. She wanted the best for her and her family. And we believe that when she found out Jim didn't get his PhD, he was confronted. And I think you can take the rest from there. Can you?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Very easily. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Really? Wow. Right from there, from a fight about, well, I'm getting it and it's fine. And Kodak's gonna keep me, and we can keep our lifestyle and pay our bills. To I'm gonna murder you was a huge stretch.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Embedding it. Drop.

[James Petragallo]

You figure?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Kodak wasn't even as that mad at him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They didn't even care. No.

[James Petragallo]

Right. The fuck is Kathy gonna be? Yeah. You have to kill her worth of mad. Jesus Christ. 2005 comes around.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

It has been 23 fucking years now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Time. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Enter this one guy we're gonna talk about here. This is fucking funny. Remember A Current Affair? Yeah, that shit at the end. Well, in 2000, 2005, there was a Current Affair too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, was there?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, because they got rid of A Current Affair and they were like, people really are clamoring for A Current Affair again. So. And they said that the mysteries were the cornerstone of their show. And they said that this show, this case fit their show perfectly. The producer said it was the awfulness of the crime and the lack of any understandable motive or scenario that would explain it. Yeah, it's like an unsolved mystery. Interesting. So the enter Mark Henderson, the new Brighton police chief, he Looks like a meathead of the highest order. He looked like he played high school football, hit his head a lot, went to community college for six months, and then joined the police force. And somehow now he's chief, and his main quote is, duh. That's what he looks like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Tickets to get this job.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, boy. I could be totally wrong, but he looks dumb as shit. That doesn't help. So he is watching. No. Jesus Christ. So the producer of the episode actually sent the episode to the new police chief of Brighton.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Try to get some kind of. Getting a quote from him or what? So it was at this point that the. The FBI was preparing a cold case collaboration with local police to tackle long unsolved crimes all over the country. So The Current Affair 2 segment, they said, provided a tight synopsis of the whole thing. You know, they're good at putting that shit into 15 minutes, so anybody who doesn't know anything about the case can get caught up real quick with that. They said he was the only one who really did something with it. Meaning Henderson. Henderson was delighted because it basically laid out a lot of the story. He's like, I don't even have to read now. Good. They had to be a file. And I was like, there's a lot of words in this. You know, I put it down.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everything.

[James Petragallo]

I said, give me anything with more pictures. They said, there's pictures of the scene. And he was like, I need pictures of, like, people I don't know. Nothing. I can't read these names. This is odd. Oh, geez. Should I. Is this the guy? Should I tackle him? No, no. You want to talk to him? Sit him down, interview him. So I should tackle him? Yeah, just tackle him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I think tackle will send a bigger message.

[James Petragallo]

I think that he'll realize that we're onto him then. You know what I mean? If I tackle him real good, he's gonna know. Then up until that, he won't know, you know, a lot of questions. This former chief of the police here, Eugene Shaw, who headed the department in 1982 and was chief for 22 years, kept parts of the police file on his desk. Some nights, after reviewing the files or receiving an occasional tip, he would make a cassette recording at home about the unsolved murder. So he's kind of kept a good case file. So Henderson, Meathead. Henderson reexamines the case along with Brighton police investigators, and they enlist the help of the district attorney also to assign investigators so they can have more people looking at this. Okay, so they are hot on Jim's trail here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Almost got him.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, almost got him. Then in 2014. That was 2005. Now we're in 2014. Yeah, nothing happened of it. There's a guy named Ed Larrabee, Edward Larrabee. He's 59 years old in 2014. He's been in prison since 1994.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My God.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. He's serving two life sentences for sexual abuse, rape and attempted murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pretty good guy.

[James Petragallo]

He's a. Yeah, he's one of the worst guys ever. The Department of Corrections confirms all of his charges.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He.

[James Petragallo]

He is a career rapist, he's called.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why do they know that?

[James Petragallo]

Career breaking, entering, rapist. That's what he does. He breaks into suburban homes and apartments and rapes women and they think, kills some of them too. They're trying to impede murders on him. He lives a five minute walk from Jim and Kathy's house. Whoa. That's where he lived in 1983. Five minute walk. Not even drive. Right there. Okay, now, while Ed is in prison here, this is for all the shit we talked about. He is sent to a Medical center in 2001 after complaining of chest pains, one of the two. Then he does this in July of 2001, by the way, while one of the two corrections officers assigned to guard him left briefly for the restroom, Larrabee took the nurse's call cord, wrapped it around Correction Officer Patrick Keeley's neck and attempted to strangle him to death.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hmm.

[James Petragallo]

That's what a good guy this is. He's in the hospital in prison for chest pains. As soon as he sees an opportunity, he tries to strangle one of the fucking officers to death.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that right?

[James Petragallo]

This guy is a problem, obviously. So during the struggle, then the officer managed to free himself, but sustained injuries, obviously. So he was then charged with two counts of attempted murder in the first degree, one count of escape in the second degree as well. Wow, that is crazy. So they tried to present psychological psychiatric evidence to this whole thing. The trial court granted his motion to hire a psychiatrist to evaluate those aspects of the case that you feel are relevant to this. Possible defenses that would be available. Okay, now we'll talk about this. They said that he goes to see a psychiatrist and does all this at trial. He admitted that he had placed the call, a cord around the officer's neck, but claimed he had only done so to facilitate his own escape, not to try to kill the guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, I was just trying to scare him.

[James Petragallo]

I was just trying to strangle him unconscious so I could walk away happy. Yeah, that's not a good thing. He said he was motivated to escape because his life was in danger after he was identified as a snitch who had cooperated with corrections authorities trying to locate weapons at the facility. He tried to get some extra fucking privileges and now they want to strangle him. So anyway, he said that he. The prison administration had received anonymous notes threatening Larrabee. So he was placed in protective custody after being stabbed by another inmate, but the threats of violence and harassment continued. So this is the thing. By 2014, I'm just going to give you an idea of who we're dealing with. A rapist and a psychopath and just a. A guy who's a real problem. In 2014, he's dying from ALS. So karma works sometimes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure does.

[James Petragallo]

Gave him the worst, most painful, horrible way to fucking die for a guy who absolutely deserves it. That's good. So at this point, obviously, he's a career criminal. He has been arrested and considered a criminal for rape, attempted murder, all this type of shit. While he's dying, he is confessing to things that he did, and a lot of them. And it's all checking out all the shit he did. It says he killed a woman named Stephanie Kopchinski, who we'll talk about. Which he did kill her. She was definitely dead and he definitely killed her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petragallo]

He also writes a written confession saying he killed Kathy Krasnik.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petragallo]

Lives a five minute walk away.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Okay. Now, the authorities, though, say. No, we don't buy it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They don't believe him.

[James Petragallo]

They don't believe it. They said that he mischaracterized her as a brunette.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So that's the only reason.

[James Petragallo]

That's it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's the one fatal flaw.

[James Petragallo]

Meanwhile, this happened 30 years ago, over 30 years before this. And he's done a lot of horrible shit since then. And it was early in the morning. Drawn and blonde hair could look darker. Who the fuck knows? Yeah. Also, he thought he sexually assaulted her as well. And they said he didn't sexually. She wasn't sexually assaulted because she was sleeping the whole time. So that it can't be right. He's got to be lying.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

So they said at the scene they found no evidence of sexual abuse. So they said they do not take. They take no action with Ed Larrabe. Meanwhile, he absolutely insists that he did it. He describes the house, he describes breaking in with the mall. He describes that there was a kid there. He describes everything. Like he fucking seems to me like he went in to probably try to rape her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

Heard A fucking kid stirring and said, oh, shit, gotta go. Fuck this, you know, because he's never done anything to kids in his criminal record. So maybe he said, oh, fuck, I don't wanna have to kill a kid, right? He was hip hop's biggest mogul. The man who redefined fame, fortune and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party. So yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three count indictment charging Sean Combs with racketeering, conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation. For prosecution. I was up and I hit rock bottom.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But I made no excuses.

[James Petragallo]

I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real.

[James Petragallo]

From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with wonder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media fe fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection.

[James Petragallo]

Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime and there's much more to come. This is the Harvard Plan, a special.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's on the Media to listen.

[James Petragallo]

Subscribe to on the media wherever you get your podcasts. Let me kill this lady quick and get the out of here. Yeah, and that would make sense too, to if he was gonna steal shit that it got left behind.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No matter what scenario you paint, it's much more believable than the husband did it.

[James Petragallo]

Then the husband with no motive did it and no reason to otherwise.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's a cocktail economist from Kodak.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, or the. Or the rapist attempted murderer lunatic who lived a five minute walk. And it gets worse too. There's more evidence for it too. So it gets even worse here. It's crazy. Now the Stephanie Kopczynski that he admitted to killing here, this was in 1991, he said he murdered her. He provided details that would. And he ended up actually being charged with that murder and several other crimes he admitted to too, they were going to charge him with, but he died before anything happened because he had ALS and was dying, so it didn't matter anyway. Didn't matter now. Ed Larrabee had a horrible reputation, even in prison as a violent lunatic. Obviously, as we've described here, one of the detectives who investigated him said Larrabee hunted women. He was a psychopath. Before dying in prison in 2014, he was locked up on a total of 32 years on charges that ultimately included attempted murder, robbery, and his sick specialty, rape. But all too often, Larrabee was released back on the streets, and they said, and every time he was free, he would rape again. And he liked. He liked to laugh at women and humiliate them. Oh, boy, he's a great guy. This said Larrabee. So you have this guy who's a fucking raging psychopath living five fucking minutes away and saying he did it. Why would he admit to this out of the blue? Because of fucking blue.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Because she was already dead. Because her husband did it.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, he came into rape and was like, oh, wow. He even said, I killed her with an axe. He even said that I put an axe in her fucking head. Absolutely. So it's pretty goddamn gross. Here. There's a woman named Rachel Rear. She is Stephanie Kopchinsky's stepsister. And she wrote a story called Catch the Sparrow, which is about this whole thing. Stephanie was a 27 year old music teacher and violinist when he killed her, which is fucking crazy. In 1991, he was freshly paroled after serving a sentence for robbery. And he came back to this area and he got a job at the New Castle apartment complex, which is where Stephanie lived. And he later on said to the cops too, well, they were stupid to hire me. Yeah, I wouldn't have hired me. She went missing in July of 1991. Stephanie. Her car was found at the airport a few days later in 1998, seven years later. Her skeletal remains were located along a creek in a remote area off Route 104 in the town of Murray in Orleans County. Larrabee was always a suspect. He was a maintenance worker at the apartment complex where they. Where she lived. So that means he had keys to people's fucking apartments. He had served three stints in prison for rape, sexual abuse, and armed robbery. Why would you give this guy keys to everybody's apartment? What the fuck are you people? What this? Wow. That's the most irresponsible hire in the history of the fucking world. And he had just been released eight months before the death before the murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So did they get him on like monster.com, like the actual monster Monster?

[James Petragallo]

They got him on fucking pervertedrapist. Dot com, I believe that would be.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

They got him on violentrapist.org that's a dot org, though. That's a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You know, the originalmonster.org was just monsters. It was just bad people just looking.

[James Petragallo]

For murderers and rapists. I'd like to hire a rapist. Where do I find one? Now the cops say Larrabee was just seeking to be moved to a hospital before his death. So that's why he said it. So it doesn't matter that he said he killed Kathy, even though all the other shit he said they found to be true. That one's not true, though. Sorry, not gonna do that. So James, lawyers, James Krasnok's lawyers say, what about this asshole? Leave me the fuck alone. This guy's a fucking dickhead. In 1982, by the way, this is the other thing he found out through the case files. His lawyer did that. In 1982, the Brighton Police tried to question Larrabee about this murder because he lived five fucking minutes away and was a prime candidate for this. But he refused to talk to them. So they just gave up and concentrated on Jim.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We got nothing on him except for.

[James Petragallo]

That he's a piece of shit crazy. They said that Larrabee said he couldn't remember if Kathy was in bed or out of bed when he struck her with the ax. And he said she was naked and also said she had brown hair. So they said, well, it couldn't have been you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, he got the. You know, he got the murder weapon, right?

[James Petragallo]

He got the murder. And he got the exact location of that house, right, too. He said it's on this fucking street right here. Because he said he jogged that morning, as we'll talk about. He said he jogged in a ski mask and was just looking for places to break into and rape and steal. That's what it was. So they said that Krausenek's lawyers are like, wouldn't 32 years of past time maybe muddle this guy's shit? Plus, he's on a shitload of medication and ALS and all this shit. Wouldn't that be anything? So, no, they said, no, not at all. Wow. The defense says that the Brighton police knew about Larry Larrabee since 82 and did nothing to determine his whereabouts the morning of the murder. He wouldn't talk, so they just gave up. Wow. That is fucking crazy. Now, 2014, Ed Larrabee dies, which is great.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. But now Ed said, by the way, he fucking tells everybody that he won't admit to Anything he didn't do, he said, I don't want to be accused of shit I didn't do. I did bad things, but don't fucking pin other people's bad things on me. That was a big thing for him. Ed wasn't the type of guy to say he did a murder he didn't do. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There is honor amongst them.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. For him. Well, I guess. He claimed to have committed over a dozen homicides. Oh. In the letter he wrote to police, which seems. That tracks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

That's a lot. If you'll do what you did with Stephanie, you'll do that a hundred times till you get caught.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Yeah. And if you get away with it, you're gonna get better at it.

[James Petragallo]

Absolutely. Yeah. That's how it works. So they said that the cop, one cop who got the letter said, I received so many letters from prison and have to be somewhat selective in what I decide to pursue. Well, I don't know. Open cases. Let's try those. So in response, I asked him for some proof he did not bite and accuse me of manipulation. But he wanted to set one record straight, that he had no conscience. So this is not because I feel guilty.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Also, any claims that police had been expert sleuths in solving the homicide should be discounted. He said that he confessed because he wanted something in return. He wanted to die in a hospital, not in prison. So he was confessing. Larrabee wrote, quote, I am what psychiatrists call a sociopath. I can assure you, for better or worse, that I am not burdened by more morality, ethics, or remorse, and I certainly do not possess a conscience that needs to be cleansed. That's what he said. He said. The cop said, when I learned. Larrabee said, when I learned I was going to die, I initiated contact offering cooperation of value. So he's saying, I'm. Listen, I did all this. I did this shit. I'll tell you what I did. April 2015, the Krausenek case is reopened and the FBI gets involved now that Ed's dead. Ed Larrabee's dead. And we can sweep that under the floor. So this is under direction of chief linebacker Mark Henderson here going, FBI, can you help us, please? He did a thorough review of the case, including travel to interview potential witnesses, persons with knowledge, suspects, all that. In June of 2015, Chief Henderson and attended a meeting of the FBI Buffalo Cold Case Group, which sounds like a terrible band, everybody. We're the FBI Buffalo Cold Case Group. Banana. That sounds terrible. I Wouldn't go watch them. Terrible ban. And presented Krausenek case to the group. After a Q and A period in which several ideas on how to proceed were discussed, the entire case file was given to the FBI to be digitized. So Chief Henderson contacted the Krasnick family to let them know that they reopened the case. So, yeah, the district attorney agreed to assist in the investigation, and the DA personally participated in selecting evidence to be sent to Quantico. And then she said, we're looking to see if there was an outside contributor, if we could justify or if we could identify a suspect. We needed to get the truth. So we're trying to test as many items as possible to see what we could learn, and then, you know, we would direct the investigation in that direction. Okay, now, yeah, I guess that makes sense. They won't, but they're just. Now they can test things for, like, touch DNA and shit like that. It's a lot different. So anything they still have. But how many items are you still going to have on file? I mean, Jesus Christ. So April of 2016, New York investigators pay Jim a visit, a surprise visit to his home in Gig Harbor, Washington. He now lives by the water. He's got a boat. He's like. He's doing great.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He had the shoes, now he's got the boat.

[James Petragallo]

He's got it all. Yeah, he put the shoes before the boat. It's like the cart before the horse. You don't want to put the shoes before the boat. But you know what? You put the shoes out there in the universe, a boat comes back to you. That's how it works, right?

[Jimmy Whisman]

You gotta have the shoes to get the. You gotta dress for the job you want. James.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. What if you get the boat and you don't have any shoes to wear on it? You're fucked.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're gonna come on this boat and not dress like a captain.

[James Petragallo]

What the. Who do you think you are? Wait, no hat. Next. Give me a fucking break. So one of the detectives asked Jim outright if he had something to do with his wife's death. And he said, no. And the cop said, I think you did. He goes, well, I didn't. I said, I didn't. And they were like that. That was. They came to an impasse there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck, he's beating us again.

[James Petragallo]

I thought maybe if I just surprised him and asked him, he wouldn't, you know, he wouldn't have a chance to think about it. Would just say, yeah, I did. I mean, no. Fuck. Jesus. Damn it. No. So that is pretty wild. So the FBI is involved still. And the Brighton police chief, Mark Henderson, said the purpose of this review is to bring justice for a young mother, a young person that was murdered, and to bring closure to the family. Duh. Yeah, that's his exact quote. So we. By the way, he's probably still the chief. We got to stay the fuck away from this area because we. This guy will have us arrested post haste. Is it Brighton?

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's Brighton police.

[James Petragallo]

Brighton. Yeah. We're staying away from Brighton. Far away from there, boy. So investigators reinterviewed everybody. They traveled to three different states, all this shit. One of the cops said, we're now in the phase where we're going to take the evidence and ship it to Quantico. So that's what they're doing here. And the FBI said we were able to provide analytical and forensic expertise. And like I said, working. The working group was formed to help police departments in cases like this. So, yeah, that's. That's what they're doing. The guy, one of the guys investigating said, I'd say the last three and a half to four months, 100% of my time is dedicated to this. We're not wasting time here. We're making some good progress. I think the public needs to know that, and I'm very optimistic as to what the outcome of this case is going to be. 2017, Kathy's mom dies.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, no.

[James Petragallo]

Her and her pierogies. She's buried in a pierogi casket.

[Jimmy Whisman]

God damn it.

[James Petragallo]

That's what it is. Actually. They just encased her in a pasta thing like a pierogi, and she's the potato. Now 2018, the authorities contact a pathologist to try to back up their claims. Great call.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. The thing is, there's been a lot of doctors and pathologists who's looked at this, including FBI doctors, pathologists from the Brighton Police Department at the time, who was a very well respected pathologist, by the way. This wasn't some dipshit small town person, actually, very well respected. So it's been looked at a bunch of times, but they need someone who will say what they want them to say. Oh, and there's a one guy who fits that description perfectly who will say anything you fucking pay him to say because he's a hack. Complete fucking loser, hack, piece of shit, money hungry fucking scumbag. And that's Dr. Michael Bodden.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Love that.

[James Petragallo]

Love him. Yeah, you might know him from that stupid TV show he had.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, Autopsy.

[James Petragallo]

Where. Yeah. Where he acted like he was very important and acted like he was. Like he was acting for half of that fucking show. Which is what annoyed me about it. This guy is a bought and paid for hack.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

In my opinion. I'll say. Just. Just to make it like that, but he is so. He used to be a, like a respected guy who did good work and then he just at one point said, well, fuck it, I need money. So we all did.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

When he was a young New York City medical examiner, he confirmed the autopsies of men shot during the 71 Attica riot. He worked on the JFK assassination.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

That one's to look for.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know.

[James Petragallo]

Well, no, they look for like tracks of the wounds and shit like that. He worked on Martin Luther King also.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

So this is all stuff he was doing when he was a legitimate guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Then later on, after he became a bought and paid for hack. I'm going to say before Post TV probably did this to him when he really liked attention. In 2007, he testified on Phil Spector's behalf.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Attaboy.

[James Petragallo]

I don't know if you guys have known. Seen anything about the Phil Spector case. We'll do a bonus episode on it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Seem real.

[James Petragallo]

It is really obvious that he killed her. No, he fucking killed her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Conspiracy.

[James Petragallo]

Nope. Two people in a room, one of them shot and killed. The other one comes out with a gun in their hand and the other.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Person'S blood all over him and the.

[James Petragallo]

Other person's spatter all over him. Okay. So pretty fucking cut and dry. Anyone who saw anything about that went, wow, I don't care how much money he has, he's going to prison for this. This is worse than O.J.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wall of Sound. Don't care. You've got blood splatter on your dominant arm.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, I don't. Yeah. Magical mystery tore my fucking ass. I don't give a shit about this. This whole case is a magical mystery. Fucking tore. So he. During this Phil Spector case, Baden sought to provide an alternate explanation for blood on the victim's jacket. Okay. When asked by a prosecutor, this is what a hack he is. Number one. Bullshit. A, he's just doing this for money. Number two, when the prosecutor. Because he's testifying for the defense, obviously. When the prosecutor asked him if he had any conflicts of interest in this case, he said, quote, none that I can think of.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not one.

[James Petragallo]

It was later revealed that his wife was one of Spectres main attorneys.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You can't do that.

[James Petragallo]

No, but you can. But you have to fucking disclose it. That's. You have to give the jury that to weigh.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's my point. You can't just say he doesn't because.

[James Petragallo]

He'S a fucking bought and paid for hack. You know who else he testified for?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Who's that?

[James Petragallo]

O.J. oh, well, now, that's fine if you were testifying for O.J. what he did, though, was total. I mean, I don't know how much he had to be paid for this, because, I mean, this stretches the credulity of any human's imagination here. This is what a hack he is. He claimed first that Nicole Brown was still standing and conscious when her throat was slashed, which we know isn't true. We know she was knocked down first. The purpose of this claim was to dispute the theory that Brown was the intended target. Like, she came out and just discovered it and got her throat slashed and she fell down rather than. She was the initial point of the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Attack and she wanted to bring it up.

[James Petragallo]

Exactly. The prosecution argued that Brown was murdered first and the intended target of the attack, she was, because the soles of her feet didn't have any blood on them, despite the large amounts of blood at the crime scene, and that she was unconscious when her throat was cut because she had very few defensive wounds. At the subsequent civil trial the following year, he then disowned that claim. Oh, Boden did. Yeah. That's what I mean. Whatever you pay him to say, even if he said the opposite last year, he'll be like, nope, this is true now. They paid me to say this. It's fucking crazy. He disowned the claim and admitted it was absurd to think that someone would stand still without their feet moving while their throat was being slashed and not fighting back. But he had testified to that in open fucking court, under oath, under oath, the year before, also in the OJ Case, in order to make it so the time of death for them was a little bit later to put O.J. outside the window. He claimed that Ron Goldman had gotten his jugular vein slashed and severed and still fought the assailant for 10 minutes. Wow. Okay. I've been a bouncer. I've been whatever. I've seen a lot of fights. I have never in my life seen a street fight last 10 minutes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a lot.

[James Petragallo]

They don't last 10 minutes. They don't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petragallo]

A riot barely lasts that long. Two men fighting does not last 10 minutes. I'll go. Doesn't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'll go. To the point of. I've seen a lot of fights that once somebody has any blood leaking out of them. It's over.

[James Petragallo]

It's. Yes, that's. That's a thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a different thing. I mean, there's no. When there's no knives involved, it's just punching.

[James Petragallo]

And when there's other people around.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's blood coming from somebody's face, you stop. This is. I mean, this was a sustained attack to murder somebody.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But for 10 minutes, you're able to fight back.

[James Petragallo]

10 minutes, severe shooting blood out of your jugular. That's. That's pure. Pure hackery. Cause that just lines up with OJ's alibi. That's just bullshit. He just said, how long do we need? Yeah, you could fight for 10 minutes. That's it. That's complete hackery. Biden claimed at the subsequent civil trial, he initially denied making that claim.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petragallo]

Then was confronted with a video clip of him saying the exact fucking thing at trial. Oh, yeah, well. And who's this saying this then? He disowned it and said he must have misunderstood the question. I don't know what the question is, but the. Goldman's attorney alleged that he said it because the defense paid him to do so, because that's who he is. He also alleged that Bodden knowingly gave false testimony because he knew that Ron Goldman's blood was found inside Simpson's Bronco. Despite Goldman never having an opportunity to be in the car after the trial, Baden said testifying for Simpson was a mistake and his reputation and credibility never recovered, and his clientele and his cult consulting practice all but vanished. Well, don't be a fucking hack then.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's also good that he. That clearly aged him because he looks worse than Ron Jeremy now.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, he does. And he should.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

He spent his life lying, not fucking, so he should. Or not raping or whatever the fuck. Ron Jeremy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ron Jeremy got technicalities or some shit. I don't know. Evidently, he's an innocent man. I don't know.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, very innocent. I'm not defending that man. No, no.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He just looks. Dr. Baden, at this point, by the.

[James Petragallo]

Way, the jurors in the OJ case, several of them cited Dr. Baden's testimony is why they. One of the main reasons they said that they acquitted him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that right?

[James Petragallo]

Absolutely. Yeah. Because he's supposed to be a respected guy, so that is ridiculous. Oh, by the way, he collected $165,000 payment for that. Whoa. To go up and say that bullshit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In the early 90s, in the.

[James Petragallo]

Early. In the mid 1995, that's great money. That's A shitload of money. Yeah. So that's. That's who he is. Who, Vadden. He also testified for. He took money from Jeffrey Epstein's family. He's just a great guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hold on. He's trying to say that Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself.

[James Petragallo]

No, he's trying to say that Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein didn't kill himself so the family can sue.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God, what an asshole.

[James Petragallo]

If you pay him, he will say anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's the reason for all this. Epstein didn't kill himself. Shit.

[James Petragallo]

Fucking no. I mean, that's conspiracy theory anyway. But that's just, you know that anyone say that. But he's. Oh, he absolutely does. Yeah, he'd be happy to as long as you had give him some money. So October 2019, Dr. Baden reports his quote. I'm going to use everything in quotes, his findings here, because his credibility is fucking shot. Completely shot. So court papers in the Krasnok homicide note that the formula uses a formula of time of death, uses a rate of 1 1/2 degrees Temperature decrease per hour from the time of the rectal temperature reading, recognizing there'll be variations such as ambient temperature and body mass. And they adjust for that. So the deputy Monroe County Medical examiner, Dr. Evelyn Lewis, who by the way just died now, so she can't come defend her work because she just died. She conducted the 82 autopsy here. Krasnik's defense attorneys here attorneys contend that the prosecutors should have told grand jurors the earlier time estimates did not like Dr. Baden's narrow the timeframe of homicide to before 6:30. Basically, Dr. Baden's the only pathologist on earth who looked at this and said, oh, it was before 6:30am the only one. He said it could have been as early as 9:30, but I think it was between 3:30 and 6:30. That's his fucking thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Shit.

[James Petragallo]

That's what he said. He's the only one of that. Biden also did not tell grand jurors of the differing conclusion. So they sat him up there and he just said, this is the time of death. And that was taken as fact. And a grand jury, you don't get to. You don't get to present defense. So it's just the prosecution and they just put out what they want to put out to get an indictment. Because if they would have brought all the other pathologists work in there, then the jury would have had to decide who was right. Whereas they didn't do that. They just brought one guy in there. He said on the stand that he Thinks it appears that Kathy died around 3:30am so the prosecutors say, well, Jim was home at that point in the report. He wrote that heat loss for Kathy Krauseneck was likely 1 degree per hour because she was heavily clad and covered by a comforter and an electric blanket, which, by the way, we find out the electric blanket was not on the whole time. But he says, you know, that'll let you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like a yeti cooler.

[James Petragallo]

Yep, that's how it is. Yeah. Fucking wow. So that's what he says. Now, then there's the neighbor of Kathy's saying she heard a moaning sound around 1 or 2am followed quickly by a dog barking. And they said, well, there you go. That's what it is. Dr. Baden wrote in his report, the timing of that report is consistent with Kathy's body temperature, the state of her rigor mortis and her stomach contents, which is complete bullshit. If she was killed before that, she'd still have food in her stomach and her bladder wouldn't be full. That's the point. If she was killed at 1am there's no way you're digesting 10pm shrimp by 1am it just doesn't happen. And she would have alcohol in her system still. So it's fucking ridiculous. So defense lawyers here for Jim challenge the differing formula of the time of death and say that Baden's misrepresenting the issue of her stomach contents, which can also formulate the time of death. Baden credited the work of Lewis, the original pathologist, then misrepresented her conclusions regarding the gastric contents of stomach as they relate to time of death. He just picked and choose words he wanted to use on the standard. The contents of her stomach indicated she was killed four to six hours after her last meal. Now, that's what he said. Now, while the original pathologist said her stomach contents were quite empty and devoid of any food, Baden said in his report that a fluid found in her stomach was indicative of some remaining food, even though no one else had ever seen this before.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

Wow. He said. So that means she was killed earlier. They also talked, the defense talked about her full bladder and all that. And he said, doesn't matter. Okay. November 2019, after it goes to grand jury, Jim is indicted and arrested.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that right?

[James Petragallo]

Yes. They arrest and indict him. Other way around. Okay. The Brighton police chief at this point, a different guy, David Cathaldi, said, we believe in examining the timeline of events, speaking with witnesses, James got a new guy. James Krasnoke's timeline that he provided along with all the other evidence will establish that James was home at the time of the murder. That should just say, Dr. Baden says this. We have nothing else. Because that's all it is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We trust him. He's got a New York accent.

[James Petragallo]

We trust him. He doesn't even. Does he. I don't even think he does.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He sounds just like he does. Yeah, he's from New York.

[James Petragallo]

I never watched that shit because he looked like a fucking. He just looked like such a douchebag standing there. That picture of him over the table that they drain people on, that douchebag pose.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He looked. He sounded. He's very New York. But in the show, in the first one, he just seemed very New York.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, he's on New York. He's like. He's the Matt Rife of murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petragallo]

This guy. Just sad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This Catholic guy. He looks like he's never heard a podcast or heard that they exist. So probably.

[James Petragallo]

It's probably 75. Yeah. Yeah. The FBI takes credit, of course. You know, if they put any work into this, they want some credit. They say that forensics and DNA analysis played a key role in James's arrest and subsequent charges. There is no DNA analysis. None of that. That's completely untrue. None of that comes up. They don't have any evidence of DNA or any evidence that it's him whatsoever. Matter of fact, both axe handles had not a speck of DNA on them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, that's not good.

[James Petragallo]

The one at the door and the one used at. Used in her head, neither of them had anything. That is. That is fucking crazy. So the FBI special Assistant says, I hope this case serves a couple of purposes. One, it's a step toward closure for the victim's family. And two, just as importantly, because the years go by, Just because years go by doesn't mean you can stop looking over your shoulder. We're coming for you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We're gonna get you.

[James Petragallo]

We're gonna hire a hack doctor and make some shit up. On this particular case. So pretrial here, the district attorney insists that she has absolutely no doubt that Jim killed Kathy that day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petragallo]

Wow. That's incredible. Because I have a lot of doubts. No doubt. Defense attorney said there's really no evidence that Jim killed his wife. Another attorney said that his client is nothing but innocent. Mr. Krasnik has been cooperative, as I said, from the time this incident occurred, even during court. He came into court on his own and was nothing but respectful. And we look forward to addressing these allegations in court. So he is set for trial June 2, 2020.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

That didn't happen, obviously. Nope. That got delayed. Yeah, so they never got to do that. Covid delays the trial until 2021.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a while. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And in the meantime, Netflix made a movie quote based on this story that is not at all based on this story at all. Here is the description of the movie from Netflix. An artist relocates to the Hudson Valley. This is nowhere near the Hudson Valley.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is the. This may as well be Shenandoah Valley.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, I live in the Hudson Valley. Yeah, this is the Ohio Valley. It's closer to the Ohio Valley than the fucking Hudson Valley. And begins to suspect that her marriage has a sinister darkness, one that rivals her new home's history.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, so they got the old lady curse.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, they went for that angle of the curse of a home. And it has 2.6 stars on IMDb, so it's not very good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fascinating choices of writing a show.

[James Petragallo]

That is crazy. So now Kathy's father, who, by the way, is 93 years old at this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Point, the guy that loves shoes, hates barefoot.

[James Petragallo]

Guy that hates bare feet. He says he plans to travel from Michigan to Rochester to see this trial.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petragallo]

Doesn't care how old he is. Yep. He says, I don't. I won't miss a day of it. He says, it's go. I'm going to go hell or high water. I want to see him with the cuffs on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't even know what that saying.

[James Petragallo]

Means, but it sounds hell or high water. I don't know. Horrible come either. Bad scenario, I guess.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Either a horrific flood or just fire.

[James Petragallo]

Fire that dries all the water up. One or the other. So 2022 is the trial for Jim, which is crazy because it's 40 years later.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's unbelievable.

[James Petragallo]

And they're going by one guy's fucking estimate of time of death. That's the only evidence they have to me. 40 years. Unless you have a DNA, strong piece of evidence. Or Sarah comes forward and says, okay, fine, I saw my dad kill my mom. I don't want to hear about it anymore. You don't have anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is crazy.

[James Petragallo]

Sarah is there, by the way, fully supporting him and sitting behind him, walking in with him. So the court found no prejudice that Ed Larrabee is unable to justify or testify for the defense because the defense said, we got a guy saying he fucking did it, and he's not available to testify. They said the evidence at the hearing showed that in 2014, Larrabee was aware of his illness, was aware it was terminal, and was Making confessions to anyone in law enforcement that would listen in order to gain concessions of a burial outside the prison and other concessions, such as a tombstone. Investigators were told by the New York State Police that Larrabee was even confessing to murdering persons that were known to still be living, although he made at least one legitimate confession, in the opinion of authorities, the case of Stephanie Kopchinski. They said that perhaps. They said that this case. Had this case been brought in 82 or 86 or at any time before Larrabee became terminally ill, he would have appeared. And they don't think he would have appeared in court and confessed? Well, no, because he's. Why the fuck we confess then? Jesus Christ. So, yeah, they said they're gonna do that. The defense also argues that the significant delay in this whole thing, you know, 40 years and all, has prejudiced his client's ability to defend himself against the charges, because everybody that can witness on his behalf, testify for him is dead. Yeah, the pathologist, the original cops, Ed Larrabee, anybody who could possibly help him is dead. So they said you kind of just. You wait it out till all the witnesses on the other side are dead, and then you can charge the guy. That's not right. So they point out that the original pathologist, Dr. Evelyn Lewis, passed away in 2018. Also, two of his co workers who gave statements to police saying he was perfectly normal that day and totally fine. They're dead, too. And that he needed those people to go. I don't know. He seemed fine at 7am which is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Crazy if you murdered your wife.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. He'd have to be an amazing actor to go from being fine all day to then coming home and being trembly and crying and doing. You'd have to be a great actor. And he seems like a dork. He doesn't seem like an actor, but who knows? The defense argued that the original pathologist's testimony would completely undercut Dr. Baden's reliance on her autopsy findings as to stomach contents. Also, they cite police interviews with now deceased Eastman Kodak coworkers stating that Jim acted perfectly normal during the day of February 19, 1982, when they met with him. They also point out that the Brighton Police Department Sergeant Edward O. Grondik Grodnik passed away in 2011. He could have testified to the observation, as found in his police report, that the electric blanket over Kathleen was in the off position. So that completely ruins Dr. Baden's thing, because he said the electric blanket is the main reason why he said that she was the time of death was different. Okay. Now, the defense also cites an death of investigator Tim or Tom Schrader, who passed away in 2005. The defense contends that he could have shed light on the Brighton investigation of Ed Larrabee, a person the defense asserts was a likely suspect and should have been more thoroughly investigated. The defendant. The defense also cites the death of former Brighton Police Chief Eugene Shaw at the time of the murder. He met with investigator Schrader after Schrader's attempt to interview ed Larrabee in 1982. Also, the death of Larrabee himself and of Dr. David Barry, whom the defense alleges administered chemical castration drugs to Larrabee as a condition of his probation at the time of the murder. So they're saying at that point he couldn't have raped because he had chemical castration. That's why we know he did it. And he couldn't have raped or even if he wanted.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There it is.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. They also said that the sergeant could have testified that he found the blanket in the off position. People. The people have agreed to stipulate to this information, which reduces any prejudice toward the defendant. The judge said, but you're going to have stipulation or a person saying it. It's different. The person saying it is more. They said. The state contends that despite a vigorous and thorough investigation, prosecutors. Prosecutors harbored sincere concern that there was a lack of quality physical evidence connecting the defendant to the crime. The people argue that the prosecution did in fact exercise good faith in their decision to defer the prosecution for 40 years. The people argue the court should evaluate the decision to defer prosecution based on the information available when the decision was made that investigators in the 80s had absolutely no reason to believe that deferring the prosecution and keeping the case open as a cold case would not result in the discovery of new evidence. So they're basically. They're saying, we couldn't have made this case in 1983. We couldn't have made this case until Dr. Baden wanted to buy a summer home. That's when we can do this case. When he really is trying to feather his nest egg.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, we found out he's taking money and we paid.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it's fucking ridiculous. So they said, though the. They found no significant. The FBI found no significant evidence of any third party being in the house forensically.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

So that means that j. Even though they didn't find any evidence that James did do it, the lack of evidence that anybody else did it means he must have done it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Had to.

[James Petragallo]

Wow. Jim's Expert disagrees with Dr. Bond, obviously. Yeah. So this is Dr. Catherine Maloney, a deputy chief medical examiner of Erie county, did some past autopsies of Kathy and Baden's report and looked at all of that. She wrote in a February letter to defense lawyers that there are no new scientific findings that would make Dr. Baden's determinations accurate as opposed to the 1982 conclusions. She looked over all the tests and said, I see what you did, and I see what you did. And that the 1982 autopsy, unlike Dr. Baden's report and grandchildren, jury testimony conforms to generally accepted principles of forensic pathology. Not some shit he made up. Basically general ones.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

That's pretty crazy. Now Jim says the state's twisting their alleg. Their. Their evidence. They said testimony before the grand jury that Kathy's sister telephoned around 10pm and was told by Jim that his wife was asleep. And she said that was unusual because she wouldn't sleep that early. She goes to bed at 11:00, not 10:00. Okay, so they're saying that by him lying to her, then that's a. That's evidence. But then the 1982 phone records show that the call was placed at 11:21pm, not 10:00pm when she said.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So she went to bed. Right on time.

[James Petragallo]

Right on time. They said, that is exactly when your sister goes to bed, isn't it? She said, yeah. Also former colleagues from Kodak. That's hard to say. Colleagues from Kodak said that Krasnek told the grand jury that Krasnak had acted agitated and more weird when she, on February 19, 1982, offered him tickets for the Shrine Circus the next day. This testimony contradicted what she told the Brighton police in 1982. She changed her story at the time. She said he didn't act unusual at all. Forty years later, when they're telling her, look, this guy's guilty, she goes, yeah, he acted weird that day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, I offered him tickets. Shit. And he was being real weird about it.

[James Petragallo]

Fucking crazy. So the lawyers for them, for everybody here, they're fighting it out here. One of his attorneys, Jim's attorney, said their burdens to demonstrate that there was due cause to wait 37 years to bring this indictment. Krasnak's attorneys have asked for a singer hearing at which they'll argue you have to do it in a very melodic voice. That's the thing this year. It's wild.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They'll argue there's Del Rey, Faso, Lati.

[James Petragallo]

Do you gotta do it? You Gotta. You gotta see. If there's no evidence, no new evidence that justifies the delay in the murder charge. The Supreme Court, the letter to a Supreme Court justice said, I'm not sure that you've had a case like this. They also bring in an expert shoe witness.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

He testifies that the footprint print found inside the trash bag was from a boat shoe. And they said that. Could it be from this pair we have in this picture, by the way? Don't show the tread at all. Completely smooth under there. We don't know. And he said, yes, sure, it could. It could.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Could be for my shoe.

[James Petragallo]

We don't know if it is, but it could be. The shoes were not tested to see if they were a match. Back in the day though, why not?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice.

[James Petragallo]

Which tells me they thought it was probably Ed Larrabee, I think. And then they were like, well, we can't get him, so. Wow. Evidence said the killer wore a boat shoe type of footwear, as did James Krausen. Ek. And police claims that the killer would not have worn such a shoe on a snowy wintery day. Time of death. Also, again, the memo. There was a memo Pad discovered in 1986 that said the medical examiner had indicated two potential times of death between 655 and 855 and then 6:30 to 9:30, which obviously contradicts what the. So they said, revisiting the case with new technology, the Brighton Police Department came to the opinion the killings happened before 6:30. It's not new technology. It's Dr. Baden pulling shit out of his ass. Then one of the days of the trial, jurors hear from numerous members of the Brighton Police Department, including investigator named Richard Corrigan, who found a pamphlet for a local marriage and family counselor in James's vehicle. So they're saying the marriage was in trouble and that's why he did this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He needs a. He needs a therapist.

[James Petragallo]

Now the defense team said that proves nothing at all. They said that it was found in the car buried in shit in the back seat in the ground floor. And they said it could have been a pamphlet distributed on his car. When they first moved there while the house was closing, they were staying in motels. He could just, you know where they hand those out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Under windshield wipers of fucking people staying at Motels in 1985.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She won't fuck you anymore here.

[James Petragallo]

Exactly. That's where people go.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But also, he could just be a good guy who picked up trash in a parking lot. I was like, I'll throw this away later.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Who knows? That's what I mean. It could have been anything. Doesn't. There was no evidence that they ever called a marriage counselor. They called the people on that thing. No one ever contacted them. They never went for any appointments, never told any of their friends. Kathy never told her sister or other friends that they were having problems and none of that shit. They found a pamphlet and said the marriage was in trouble.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's fucked.

[James Petragallo]

Never mind all the evidence. We have this. So a neighbor who lived near them, Eileen Marin, said that she saw James come to her door that evening drained of color. The defense argues that's a strong piece of evidence to claim that, you know, he came home and learned that his wife had been murdered. They also bring up testimony from another neighbor, and this is, to me, everything. Testified to seeing a suspicious and unusual jogger in the area that morning around 7:25am as she was leaving for work. She said the jogger was. This is crazy. Not known to her. And wearing a ski mask and running at an extremely slow pace. Never seen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Stalking stock.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Hunting.

[James Petragallo]

Crazy. And that's what he said he was doing that morning at Larrabee. Was pretending to jog. That's what happened. So. Wow, that's crazy. So I don't even know how the hell you can. I mean, if you put these two people in front of you and said, which one you think did this? Ed Larrabee or Jim Krasnok? Holy shit. I'm probably pick an ad 99 times out of 100. Yeah, that's part of it. Then they put Dr. Baden on there, and he tells his bullshit, and he says that his final diagnosis is severe chopping injuries to the head and brain. Thanks, Doc. Thanks a lot. He said it takes at least 12 hours after death to reach the level of rigor that she was in. And in his opinion, that would mean that Kathy died somewhere between 9pm and 3am now he's going all the way back to 9pm Six hour window. Six hour window.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now, that window only has Jim in it.

[James Petragallo]

Only that's the gym window. Yeah, they said, which the prosecutor said that means that she died before James went to work, according to his opinion. And he says it's important to have someone with Bodden's level of experience on the stand to take the case. You've all seen him on tv, haven't you?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

They said to us it's very important. He's obviously renowned. You hear the cases he worked on. He was hired by the US government to examine JFK and MLK Jr. So just some of the things you've done, he's done. You can't match that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Can't do it. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

I would be like, can I introduce this OJ Shit? Then discredit this fucking idiot. Yeah. Saying that he testifies and then denies that he testified to that in the next fucking case.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Said you can't deny it. Well, here. Here's a way to deny it.

[James Petragallo]

So in the closing arguments, the defense challenges Dr. Baden's determination, suggesting that the best perspective on the time of death was the original medical examiner. They argued Dr. Lewis had the best perspective to determine the time of death, the best to make the facts. But interpretation is another matter. Dr. Baden said in his response. So you know the facts are all there. Yes, but it's all how you interpret them. The lawyer then said his opinion is substantially different than Dr. Lewis's. His testimony pivots on body temperature. If you take body temperature out, his position is completely unfounded. It's by no means an exact science. I think Dr. Baden was clear on that. But Dr. Baden, in his experience is familiar. This is the prosecutor said, in his experience, is familiar with how those factors blankets individuals health, affect body temperature. No one else is, though. Just him. He's the only guy. So the prosecutor or the defense attorney said that the fact that Dr. Lewis, the original doctor, is not alive, they said, we think it's a fatal challenge because if the prosecution proceeded with this in a timely manner, Dr. Lewis would be here to defend her autopsy, which is evidently defendable. And they waited for 40 years. She's dead, now she can't defend it. Then they bring Dr. Baden in from out of town.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And they're gonna do the small town fear thing here. He comes from New York City, coming in here, trying to tell us small town folk how to act.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, this guy's been to Brooklyn, you guys.

[James Petragallo]

He's been to Brooklyn. People, people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a big deal.

[James Petragallo]

He went to a Knicks game once. Think about that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Have you been to Yankee Stadium?

[James Petragallo]

Oh, man. He said, goes on to say fingerprints were not on the axe. The mall, the point of entry. DNA from the axe excludes James and Sarah. We can't really nail that down. No, he says that it's written in the context. It was written in the context that he was dying. Meaning Ed Larrabee's confession. About to face his enemy. And there are some things in the statement that are wrong, but some are consistent. The notion he wipes down the ax with a bath towel, that's One of the things he said he did was wipe down the axe handles with a bath towel. The prosecution says very simply, if the jury believes Dr. Baden's testimony, which we believe he's a very credible witness, then that means James Krausen ek killed his wife on that day. They said the only reasonable conclusion is that James K Went to his garage, grabbed the axe hat that he had used over and over to chop wood, walked up his stairs and killed Kathy while she slept. He made it look like someone came in, then he went to work.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's all we've got.

[James Petragallo]

That's it. They said you've heard some officers, they were saying the burglary appeared contrived. A gold necklace hanging on the door, cash on the dresser. What kind of a burglar doesn't take things that are sitting out in the open? That's kind of not committing a burglary.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a great point.

[James Petragallo]

That's a good point too. But again, that doesn't make Jim have any more evidence against him is the problem. So the verdict comes in here and obviously he comes in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Judge explains to them there's no probably guilty, there's no maybe guilty, just guilty or not guilty. They find him guilty of second degree murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get out of my life.

[James Petragallo]

I swear to God, that's crazy shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's ridiculous.

[James Petragallo]

There's just. He might have done it. Don't get me wrong. I don't fucking know, but doesn't seem like it at this point. So sentencing. Sarah speaks during sentencing. And he says, she says, my mother, this poor fucking Sarah. I can't say poor girl. She's like 45 years old at this point. But still, it sucks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's awful.

[James Petragallo]

She said, my mother's killer got away with her murder. My father's life has been taken by a failed justice system that convicted him of a crime he did not commit. And then Kathy's dad testifies during the sentencing. He says, and Jim, I hope you live to be 100 years old and enjoy your new home jail.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hope you get no shoes.

[James Petragallo]

Hope you get nothing. No boat shoes for you. Hope you're on a boat with fucking combat boots on. See how you like that. So Sharon, this is Jim's wife, said that, you know, you gotta, you know, this is crazy. Justice isn't being served and all that kind of thing. And Sarah said, the justice system failed my parents, myself, both sides of my family. It's also failed this community. Jim got up, he read a note in which he. It's a long note. He Said he reaffirmed his love for Kathy. Said, I love my wife and I, you know, she was everything to me and I would never hurt her. And he said in closing, I did not murder Kathy. I love Kathy with all my heart and my soul.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, well, that's a lot.

[James Petragallo]

And the jury said, you, sir, may fuck off. 25 years to life. What the fuck? Yeah, that's. Wow. So Kathy's parents now, they say the Schlosser family said they've had no communication with Sarah for years. Until today, not at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is Annette's some now.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, this is Antonette here. She said. I told her when I walked in, I said, sarah, I love you no matter what happens. And she said, thank you. And now we pray that Sarah will come back to us and be a part of us, because she has no family now. She's been brainwashed for 40 years. I don't think that's going to come together too soon. And then she said this, Annette, how horrible she must feel right now. But let's give her some time and we'll be in touch with her. Yeah. So he is sent to Clinton, which is real horrible. Dannemora is Clint.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So there's bad news and shit.

[James Petragallo]

It's a really bad place. It's known as Little Siberia in New York prison system because it's cold in the middle of fucking nowhere, hard for people to visit. Yeah, it's all. That's crazy shit. They also say the prison walls and watchtowers loom over the main street of the village, which exists only because of the prison. That's one of those towns starts out. A lot of towns started out in New York like that, Like Ossining started out just because Sing Sing was there. And then it became a big suburb. So that is fucking wild. Then the prosecutor said, I can't imagine a place, a place more unlike Krausenek's home in sunny Arizona, because he's got a house down there too. So 2023 comes around, they file an appeal here. Obviously they file an appeal immediately. Then in 2023, James dies in prison.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, the poor bastard.

[James Petragallo]

71, he is not used to that life. He got up there, he was in that shit life for a year and he died.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus, what's worse than that?

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it's one thing if people are in prison for 40 years, but when you have had a normal life and then you go to prison in your late 60s, that's not great. You're 70 years old. So, yeah, he dies at 71. He was barely in there. Two years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No good.

[James Petragallo]

So the thing about this is for Jim, I mean, it doesn't help him any because he spent his last days in prison. But according to what I like to call the Aaron Hernandez rule.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, the old Aaron Hernandez clause.

[James Petragallo]

That. Yep. The fact that his appeal was in process of the time of this means that it is now. He's now technically innocent. This vacates the conviction.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He gets a proper burial.

[James Petragallo]

If you die while your appeal for that crime you're in prison for is still in the midst, it wipes out the conviction. Just like Aaron Hernandez. This guy's technically innocent.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's terrific.

[James Petragallo]

His conviction was erased and his indictment dismissed because he had a pending appeal.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I love it.

[James Petragallo]

Interesting. The Monroe County District Attorney's office supported this, while Krausenk's family wanted the appeal to continue after his death. They said, no, no, no. We want this to play out in court. That he's fucking innocent. Not that you just say it. And the one guy said, quote, jim Krasnick is now technically after death, managed to escape conviction. His family isn't happy with that. They wanted a real review of the case. Interesting. Appellate judges declined to. They said, meanwhile, the question of whether the conviction would withstand stand in appellate challenge has gone unheard and unconsidered. Appellate judges declined to hear the appeal, deciding that New York precedent firmly establishes the posthumous dismissal without further litigation. Like he's fucking dead. We're not wasting money on this. Done. Now the house itself is considered a three bedroom, three bath. Now, I don't know what they changed it. I'm not sure. 2057 square feet. It's at 33 Del Rio Drive in. Technically Rochester, because that's the same thing. Sold in 2023 for $372,000. Not even that much. Yeah, not even that much. Actually, that's pretty good. Not bad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So unless the less a murder ruins the fucking price. You know what I mean?

[James Petragallo]

That'll screw everything up. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's what they did. Remodel after a murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Have to. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Made a bigger master bedroom. Not going to the bath. Yeah, that makes sense. Probably. That's what people do. So it's more sellable. But that is Brighton, New York, everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don't go. You'll be framed for murder.

[James Petragallo]

You could be framed for murder. Or have to watch a man fart while he makes pizza. One of the two. It's not good. Either way, the result is not great.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Leave your boat shoes elsewhere.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, God. Do not bring boat shoes to this town. You'll Be in cuffs before you fucking know it. So there you go. This is one of the shows we did for a live show this year.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, that's great.

[James Petragallo]

And it was a lot of fun to do live and we hope you guys enjoyed it. We put, I put more detail in. I found a lot more stuff. The live show, we don't have two hours and 40 minutes to do it. So you guys would be asleep 2 hours and 40 minutes. So at a live show, it's weird. It'd be like 11 o'clock at night. Be like, Jesus Christ, I got up for work today. So, you know, that's good. So we do it now and can add some extra detail, some extra context to it. Hope you enjoyed it and hope you enjoyed the live shows this year. Thank you so much for coming out to those live shows and seeing us. Speaking of that, I would like to read off a list of live shows. First of all, if you like the show and you want other people to know about that, please, and we beg you, please tell the world about it. Get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars and help us out a lot, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com get your tickets for live shows. 2025 live shows are live and available. Here we go. Let's go down the list. February 7th in Pittsburgh.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yes.

[James Petragallo]

Get those tickets right now. It's a big fucking theater. Fill that pitch up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's, let's make it. Let's make a showing.

[James Petragallo]

Not to, not to put pressure on you, but basically we look at things and we look at how things sell. And if that's a half empty building, we ain't coming back to Pittsburgh. So if you want us there, fucking buy tickets the next night in Columbus. February 8, May 16 in St. Louis, the Pageant, beautiful theater there. May 17 in Chicago at the Riviera. Oh, baby, bring me home. I love it. Not that I'm from Chicago, but I like Chicago. Great place. September 6th, we are in San Diego at the Observatory. September 7th at the Irvine Improv in Irvine, California. September 19th, we are. Oh, I can't give that one out yet. That's coming out soon. That's our mystery one. You'll understand exactly why when you hear where it is and when our tickets went on sale.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's in the Midwest, so be prepared.

[James Petragallo]

Be prepared here. It's driving distance to Grand Rapids, which is the next day, Grand Rapids, Michigan with people seem super excited about that. October 17th, Portland. Back in Portland at the new Mark. Can't wait for that, the 18th, we are in Seattle, which is fun. That is Seattle at the Moore, which is a beautiful fucking theater. That's where you go see cool, fancy people. And we're going to be part of that. Then on the December 12, we'll be in Philadelphia, back at the Fillmore. Love that place. And then December 13th, ending it all out in Washington D.C. for one there, by the way, those are all Friday Saturday shows except for the Irvine Improv, which is on a Sunday, because comedy clubs are twats and they want you to fucking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, they want you to do two.

[James Petragallo]

Shows in a night. And we're not doing that. So. So there you go. You got us on a Sunday. Sorry about that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Treat it like they want me to do two shows. I'm not doing two shows in.

[James Petragallo]

I'm not doing two shows. I can't do it. That's exactly what it is. That's the exact conversation we had with our agents about two shows. You just can't do it. It's all fucked up. So thank you so much for that and thank you for buying tickets. Shut up and give me murder dot com. Get them quick because they go fast, especially the good ones. They go real fast. So get those tickets and come hang out with us. A lot of beautiful places, beautiful venues. This year also, in addition to shut upandgivemerder.com, head over to patreon.com/crimeinsports. Get all your bonus materials. Holy shit. There's so much. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get the whole back catalog. New shit all the time, hundreds of episodes you've never heard before. Bonus stuff. New ones every other week, including this week, where obviously one crime in sports, one small town murder. You get it all, baby. For crime and sports this week, we are going to talk about personal ads again. Back by popular demand, let's hear what people were looking for back in the newspaper days, when you just be like, I'm gonna find a person. Let me put an ad in the paper.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Kite. Find that out and find out then.

[James Petragallo]

For small town murder, we are gonna talk about the West Memphis Three. And we'll do a few episodes of these that will spread out over time with them and we'll break it into sections. This is gonna be. How the fuck did this even happen?

[Jimmy Whisman]

What'd you do?

[James Petragallo]

We're gonna talk about that. What happened? How did this lead to this point of even having to make a goddamn documentary? Never mind three of them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like walking into a kitchen and somebody just. There's cake all over the floor. You just go, what'd you do?

[James Petragallo]

I didn't even know we had cake.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What happened?

[James Petragallo]

Didn't even know there was cake. And you've ruined it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why is it like this?

[James Petragallo]

So we'll talk all about that and we'll talk about more. Definitely. That's patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is gonna happen in one second here. Also, you definitely want to follow us on social media. SmallTownMurder on Instagram, SmallTown Pod on Facebook. Find us, hang out with us, keep coming back for more and more. That said, Jimmy hit me with the names of the most wonderful people in the world who would never ever hire a hack pathologist to frame us for murder. Jimmy hit me with the list right fucking now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This week's executive producers are. Jennifer Yates, Larry Butterfest. Happy birthday, Lair Bear.

[James Petragallo]

Happy birthday, Larry. Thanks for that, Jameson, bro.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jake Young, Jordan Bennett and Simon. They're moving back to England. Did you know that?

[James Petragallo]

Are they really?

[Jimmy Whisman]

They are.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, we won't see him anymore? No, we'll see them down from Canada all the time. That's all right. They're gonna pop over to a couple different weird accent. That's fine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Courtney, Jadele. Jadiel. Jadeel. Jadele. I'll bet it's still Yiddaley.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Erica Gerstenberger's sister, Sabina. I don't know her last name. Erica didn't give that.

[James Petragallo]

Maybe it's Gerstenberger wants us to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, I think Eric is married.

[James Petragallo]

We don't know Sabina.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Also Angie Pennington, Aaron Stevens, Christine Lewis, Ashley Williams, Tyler and Brittany Jones and Crystal, my purdy Newland. Thank you all so much. You're fantastic. Other producers this week are Linda Moroney and Harry Balzac. Oh, probably not.

[James Petragallo]

I'm sure you get it. Could be or.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Or Linda's Harry balls. I don't know.

[James Petragallo]

Maybe it's. She's got a nice sock.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Good for you, Larry. Linda.

[James Petragallo]

Linda. Larry Ball Sack. Will.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Linda. Linda and Harry. Is Larry. All right? Peyton Meadows.

[James Petragallo]

Janice Hill.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Natalie Austin. Bar. Happy birthday. Jenna wanted us to tell you Julia Reynolds is holding space. James, I don't know if you know. I'm very annoyed by that. I don't even know what it. It doesn't mean a thing. And people have now begun saying it and I want to choke people when they say it. It's the dumbest. I'm holding space for that.

[James Petragallo]

You sound like me now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Kick you. Roxanne Ewok hanging out with Me too much.

[James Petragallo]

I'll kick you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Roxanne with no last name. Ewok with no last name. Sassy apron springs. Oh, strings Got you. All right. Angelica Garpland seadorf. Lacey Ward. Derek89 Claudia Berry Nina with no last name. Jason Ogden. Aziz Kadeen. Oh, Aziz no last name. Kadeem Hunt is another person. DNT DN not M. Renee Linton. Hannah Goodman. Danae Upshaw. MC118Z. Paul Simon Jail. Jail.

[James Petragallo]

Jodgy Paul Simon.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Judgy. Jodji. Is this the. Did I not press enter? And Jaji. Jaji is another person.

[James Petragallo]

I don't know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Your guess is as good as mine. Carrie Stewart. Rebecca with no last name. Michael Pettit. Jessica Keith. Christopher Cox Sinclair with no last name. Kelsey Lang, 810 and Bill the Strand. Nicole Huff, Lori with no last name. Bailey Gallups. Shellis. Shelley Turner Renner. Shelley or Shellis.

[James Petragallo]

Are any of these. Are any of these people holding space though?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jimmy, I think all of them are holding space for us.

[James Petragallo]

And I'm so glad you said that by the way. In real life, Jimmy says shit like that all the time on the show. He lets it slide off him. In real life he's like I will fucking kick that person. And that's why I hang out with him. He on the show and I sound like a psychopath. And he's like, yeah, that's crazy man. I'm like where the are you? Where are you?

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's just when people say things in my head. I know can't take it.

[James Petragallo]

We talk about it all the time. Well, this is our private conversations are. Could you believe this? Those are every conversation we have. Sorry to interrupt you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Bane, Ross, John with no last name. Amberly Menje Menge. Amberly Minge. Maybe Amberly and her Min. I don't know her.

[James Petragallo]

Both of them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Amberly might be a dude.

[James Petragallo]

Bring her binge with her. That's nice. Who knows?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Rose Bloom, Kristen S. Molly Crawford, Rena Dute or Dut. Megan Bussing. Todd Kaiser Soze. Travis Hoffman.

[James Petragallo]

Jamie coming out of hiding.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, Jamie Ammo Amo. Amy Amo, Delaney Ellison. I think maybe Delane, I don't know. Captain Zod, Joe Lynn, Julia Thompson Arching Archanti Arcanti Hill. Nicole with no last name Joyce with no last name Jennifer Gasser, Deanna Katz Helper with no last name Ali with no Last Name Mama Red 89 Michelle Ocoin the Leaf Man. The Leaf Man 77 Bernadette Danner, Shane Carl Rossini, Bernadette Charmaine, Laura Edward Nicole Winkler, Jabloos all right. Uh, Gary Kaida Keita maybe. Jake Yeager. Angelo Leonardo Leonardo Brian Atkinson. Live the Kid. Francesca Curley Curie. That's what that is. Austin Duncan, Lisa with no last name. Cat P. That's fantastic. Beatrice Roas, Carrie Grooms. Harvey Joan. Oh, don't do that. Carrie Joan Kemp. Christian Klepper, Martin Grubbs, Mark Roser, Lacey Johnson, Krista D. Adam Fellmeister, Gen T. Matt Smith. Patrick Newsome. Frank with no last name. Lori Harris, Carter Hayes. Mimi to aver and P. I don't know what that means. Mimi did something for T for aver and P. Oh, Ollie would know. Last name. Michelle Phillips. Jacob Shrivener. Scrivener. Scrivener. Vane Ferry, Suzanne Moore, Joel Jolie. Lair Fitzer. Pfizer Shannon North Pridge with no last name. Rach. Adrian.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holy Zanabe. Zainab. Jeff with no last name. Holly with no last name. Jamie Burns. David Gilbert. Brian Hillyard. Jared with no last name. Lori Taylor. Sean LaBeouf, Dallas Gribbin, Chantelle Johnson, Meredith Collins. Liz Wilson Ryan with no last name. Rachel Cannock. Audra with no last name. Sophie Warren Blades, Lindsay Ickis, X. Tatum Thompson, Annie McCormick. Alyssa Polly. Brenna Botsford. Aileen Quatch, Monica Wemis, Harrison Ecot. Megan Alvarado, Rob Davis, Mary Peters, Amanda Nese. M4 CEO Brian Smuck. Brenda Hugh Crystal with no last name. Ashley Pasek. Gabby with no last name. Stephanie with no last name. Alex McCogging. McCoggin.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, boy. What do you put in your coggin?

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's it. That's the last name. Alex McCoggin. McCoggin, Alex. All right. Heather Jeter, Raymond Remy, Remy V. Maxim Dynav, Timoth. Tiffany Timothy Tiffany Morovia, Nicole ware, William Jackson. 843-230 Grayson, Sydney Tobias, Naomi Oleson. April Capaccio. McConica, Monica Noakes. Danny Lee. Tedder. Anna with no last name. Amy Ninja, Erica Davis, Christy B. Chrissy B. Jenna Fortune, Sharon Sharon Mokom, Jessica Eastman, Brian Murphy, Sheila Jaggerd, Adam Vines Veens Dave with no last name. Eric Sohn, Rashad Stanford Mel with no last name. Calista Begley, Jacob Parker. Jessica with no last name. Danica Schoenfeld. Chelsea with no last name. Lauren Secco, Nate Thompson, Brittany Ernst. And all of our patrons. We love you.

[James Petragallo]

Thank you so much, everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petragallo]

You fantastic, wonderful fucking bastards. We love you so much. We can't wait to come out and see everybody this year. And thank you for being patrons and thank you for. For enjoying the crazy content we put out on there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're awesome.

[James Petragallo]

Fuck yeah. We appreciate everything you do for us. Thank you so much. And if you want to follow us on social media, very easy to do that. Shut up and give me murder.com drop down menu. It has all that shit. Get in there. Keep hanging out with us. And until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure. If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey. You don't believe in ghosts. I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and yet unexplained, have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada as we journey through terrifying and bone chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.