#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia

Summary

Small Town Murder Podcast Summary: Episode #565 - "The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia"

Introduction

In Episode #565 of Small Town Murder, hosts James Pietragallo and Jimmie Whisman delve into the intricate and darkly comedic tale of Mary Naomi Cloud, a woman whose actions transformed her from a respected community member into a notorious fugitive. Set against the backdrop of rural Princeton, West Virginia, this episode unravels a story of betrayal, conspiracy, and evasion that left an indelible mark on the small town.

Background

Princeton, West Virginia, once a thriving coal mining and transportation hub, faced economic decline as coal reserves dwindled and railroads became obsolete. By 2006, significant landmarks like the Virginia Railroad's Princeton passenger station were demolished, sparking discontent among residents. The town grappled with social issues, including an opioid epidemic and high unemployment, painting a grim picture of a community in decline.

The Key Players

• Mary Naomi Cloud: Born in 1943, Naomi was a prominent businesswoman in Princeton, owning a beauty parlor and operating the Merle Norman cosmetics franchise. She was deeply involved in social events and held a position of local influence as a civic leader.

• David B. (DB) Cloud: Naomi's wealthy and elderly husband, born in 1926. Their marriage appeared stable and prosperous, making Naomi's secret affair all the more shocking.

• John Elmer Corporue Jr.: Born in 1932, Corporue was Naomi's secretary at a frozen food business. Described as balding, middle-aged, and diabetic, Corporue maintained an ongoing sexual relationship with Naomi despite his limitations.

• George Ballard Guthrie II: Born in 1951, Guthrie was characterized as a chronic misfit and drug addict from Roanoke, Virginia. Hired by Corporue to execute the murder plot.

The Affair and Conspiracy

Naomi met Corporue in 1972, igniting a clandestine affair that lasted for years. Despite Naomi's subsequent marriage to DB Cloud, she continued her relationship with Corporue, providing him with financial support ranging from driveway paving to purchasing a boat. This dual life culminated in a dark plot to eliminate her husband for financial gain.

Planning the Murder

In late 1979, Naomi and Corporue conspired to murder DB Cloud. The initial plan involved:

1. Disabling Security: Guthrie was tasked with unscrewing floodlights to create darkness, ensuring the murder would not be witnessed.

2. Executing the Hit: On the night of January 26, 1980, DB Cloud returned home late, unaware of the plot unfolding in his backyard. As he approached the house, a masked Guthrie demanded money but, under the influence of alcohol, shot DB Cloud at point-blank range, resulting in fatal injuries.

The Murder and Immediate Aftermath

At approximately [39:21], the confrontation unfolded:

• Incident Details: DB Cloud was shot in his backyard by Guthrie, who then fled the scene. Notably, Guthrie did not seize any money, adding to the mystery surrounding the motive.

• Naomi's Response: Traumatized yet composed, Naomi called 911 despite witnessing the gruesome aftermath, including scattered brain matter from the shotgun blast.

Investigation and Suspicion

The investigation revealed:

• Unusual Circumstances: The lack of theft and the survival of Naomi raised suspicions. Witnesses reported seeing unfamiliar men cruising the neighborhood multiple times, suggesting premeditation.

• Financial Motive: Naomi stood to gain significantly from DB's death, including insurance money exceeding $90,000 and control over shared properties.

Arrests and Legal Proceedings

• George Guthrie's Arrest: Initially arrested in Virginia, Guthrie confessed to his role in the murder. However, his confession was later suppressed due to procedural violations, specifically the delay in presenting him to a magistrate.

• John Elmer Corporue Jr.'s Involvement: Corporue was implicated as the mastermind, utilizing his authority to hire Guthrie for the crime. Facing mounting evidence, Corporue took a plea deal, admitting culpability in exchange for a reduced sentence of one to five years, from which he was released after eight months.

Naomi's Flight and Fugitive Status

Following the arrests, Naomi swiftly liquidated her assets:

• Property Seizure Attempt: Using her business properties as collateral for bail, Naomi managed to sell the associated buildings, evading immediate capture.

• Evasion: Naomi relocated to Huntington, West Virginia, and continued her business endeavors, effectively disappearing from the radar until 1988.

Attempted Capture in 1988

Years later, authorities received a tip leading them to Kennewick, Washington:

• Arrest Attempt: In April 1988, Naomi was located and apprehended without resistance, surprisingly calm and unharassed during the ordeal. Accompanied by her boyfriend, Bernie Stanley, she was brought back to West Virginia to face trial.

• Plea Agreement: Facing strong evidence, Naomi accepted a plea deal, pleading guilty to second-degree murder and receiving a sentence of five to eighteen years—a stark contrast to the severe charges she initially faced.

Ongoing Mystery and Legacy

Despite legal actions, Naomi Cloud remains a figure shrouded in mystery:

• Missing Status: As of 1989, Naomi had not served her sentence, leading to widespread speculation about her whereabouts and true fate.

• Impact on Princeton: The case left lingering distrust and highlighted the vulnerabilities within small-town dynamics, illustrating how personal relationships and greed can culminate in tragic outcomes.

Notable Quotes

• James Pietragallo at [44:03]:
  "They think she's Billy the Kid now. That's fucking wild."

• Jimmy Whisman at [81:49]:
  "She's a figment of our imagination. There she goes. Just a damn hero in this town."

• James Pietragallo at [109:56]:
  "She wasn't even hiding. She was selling things to people."

Conclusion

"The Fugitive Temptress" episode of Small Town Murder masterfully blends meticulous research with the hosts' comedic flair to shed light on a convoluted murder case in Princeton, West Virginia. Through engaging storytelling and insightful commentary, James and Jimmie unravel the layers of deceit, love, and desperation that defined Mary Naomi Cloud's journey from respected businesswoman to elusive fugitive. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the complexities lurking beneath small-town façades and the far-reaching consequences of personal choices.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the podcast's transcript provided and are approximate.

Transcript

[James Petregallo]

Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures, more than we've ever taken in the history of the world.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But it's.

[James Petregallo]

That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture and then you'd look through them and you could enjoy them. Now they're like back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that. That's why the cool thing you need to do and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a shutter photo book. Oh, what I did. And you're gonna enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well. With their 24 hour designer service, a professional designer is gonna lay out the book for you for free in just a day. Make something that means something with Shutterfly. Enjoy. 40% off orders over $29 with promo code Small town C site for promotional details.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

Always.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

Back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm Jimmy Whisman.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us on another absolutely crazy episode of Small Town Murder. All I have to say is two words. West Virginia. That's where we are this week. You know, it's crazy. We'll put it that way. There we go. We'll get to that. First of all, very quickly, shut upandgivemerder.com get your tickets for live shows this year. February 7th, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, you are up on deck. Get in there. The next night in Columbus, sold out already. So no tickets for that. Thank you, Columbus, for selling that out. You guys are great. So thank you for that. Also, I think there's about 20 tickets left to Portland in November, so it's 99% sold out. I saw. So you might want to get in there. And also Philly, D.C. seattle, all those at the end of the year selling real fast.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Real fast.

[James Petregallo]

Madison's almost sold out already. That was so. It's crazy. So thank you so much everybody for doing that. Shutupandgivemerder.com, get your tickets today for all the 2025 live shows. Also, get yourself Patreon. Do yourself a favor, Patreon. P a T r e o n.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. $5 a month or above. You get everything. Hundreds of back episodes you've never heard before. New ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get all of it for that low, low Price. And this week is no different. This week for crime and sports. We are going to talk a little bit about Kobe Bryant's problems back in Colorado. Yeah, we're gonna talk about Kobe's Colorado problems from 2005 or whatever it was. We'll get into that. We'll read the whole. The deposition and we'll try to figure out what went on there. Basically because it's a big cloudy thing that everybody. Nobody really knows what happened. So we'll read and find out what actually happened. Then for small town murder, back by popular demand, we're gonna do another Internet salad here, okay? Which means anything that's going on on the Internet the day we record except politics. Yeah, everybody. We did it around the election. When all the news is politics, we're going to say, here's all the news that isn't politics. And we're going to have a great time with it. It's going to be a lot of fun. Patreon.com crime and sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show. So there you go. Jimmy will mispronounce your name even though he'd love to get it correct. So that's how that goes. Disclaimer time. Number one, we're comedians. This is a comedy show. But the murders are insanely real. That's the thing. There's nothing is embellished for comic effect or no silliness like that. These are absolutely meticulously researched murder stories that are insanely factual that we make jokes on. That's what happens. But you say, how the hell do you do that? Well, number one, we think it makes it a little more digestible. I don't know. The somberness of a lot of these, it makes me very uncomfortable. And it's hard to listen to stories like that. A little joke here and there, but when it's appropriate. See, what you don't do is you don't make fun of the victims or the victim's families.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why, James?

[James Petregallo]

Because we're assholes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yes, but.

[James Petregallo]

But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's great the way it works, and the show works wonderfully. We think you'll love it. If you don't love it, then, I don't know, maybe true crime and comedy doesn't ever go together for you. But for the rest of people who really want to hear a crazy story about this, we got a wild one for you here. I think it's time everybody to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs, shall we? Here let's go. Arms to the sky and let's all shout shut up and give me murder. Let's do this everybody. Okay, let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We have to.

[James Petregallo]

We have to. We're going to Princeton, West Virginia this week. Yeah, Princeton, like the Ivy League that is. Princeton, New Jersey. Yeah, absolutely, Princeton. And then you get to West Virginia and go, wow, this isn't what I expected. Especially where this is. This is like rural southern West Virginia. It's about an hour 40 to Roanoke, Virginia. So it's down by the Virginia border. It's about 55 minutes to Sky Gusty West Virginia, which was our last West Virginia episode, the Trust game, which was a bad game. Oh, that was terrible, terrible, terrible game. You don't want any part of that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gross.

[James Petregallo]

And it's really close to Pearisburg, Virginia, which we did about a month ago for the Appalachian Trail Killer guy. So it is. This is a real interesting area around here. It's in Mercer county area code 304 and the motto here is. It is the quote heart of Mercer County.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is it?

[James Petregallo]

I guess I don't know what that means.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's a lot of the heart.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, a lot of heart of. And a lot of live work and play bullshit they like to throw in there. A little bit of history of this town. Not too much, but a little bit in southern West Virginia, late 19th century. So late 1800s, coal mining and transportation became a big deal here. That was a. So you know, you had the railroads and they were in with the coal mines and because you needed to get the coal out of there somehow. So a lot of the region's coal was sent northwest to the Great Lakes or over to Baltimore and the coal piers in Baltimore or to the world's greatest ice free port of Hampton Roads in East Virginia. That's what they say. I don't know. It's ice free I guess. Not going to freeze ice over for some reason. Princeton's location was east of the coal fields. And most of the coal mining and railroad activity was somewhere else at first. But then it became a thing that ended up being with Princeton. Princeton got real tied up in the railroad, the Virginia Railroad, which is called the vgn and. But the problem is the coal basically. You know, coal. A mountain that's filled with coal doesn't last forever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

So once that's depleted then you just got the companies leave and then that's that. And they leave behind depleted mines and things like that. And the same thing happens with the railroads that are no longer needed either for the coal. So by 2006, here, the VGN Princess, that's the Virginia Railroad, Princeton shops facilities were demolished there. And these were like really old buildings too. That kind of gave the town some character, some charm. So the residents were really upset about this that they all got torn down. So they built a replica of the VGN's two story Princeton passenger station and offices. There's no. They just built. Does nothing. And they said it's the largest effort in the entire state. This is a state that is dying from like opioid epidemic. And it has the lowest income in the country, the lowest housing price. Like everything here is depressed and low. And they're like, what if we spent a bunch of money to build a replica of a building that made people smile? Like, what the hell are you talking about?

[Jimmy Whisman]

What will the new one do? It'll make us smile.

[James Petregallo]

That's terrific.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A star high school player, football player who wanted to play for the Mountaineers. I think he may have went to the. Went and played for the Mountaineers for like one season. Either got hurt or failed out. And then the last scene of the documentary is him plucking coal off the side of a mountain to warm his house.

[James Petregallo]

To warm his house. Like an American hollow, like on the ground going in the mountain to pick it. Yeah. Oh, my God, that's so sad. That's fucking horrible.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But they got enough money to build replica.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. I don't think a lot of people realize that there's people living a Charlie Bucket lifestyle in. It's really fucked up right now. I don't think people realize that today, right this fucking minute, there are people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That technologically cannot listen to what we're doing right now.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. Literally, no matter how much they want to. They'd have to go to a McDonald's to do it. Shocking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They don't even have the actual machine to go to McDonald's to get on the Wi Fi to listen to it. They can't even do it.

[James Petregallo]

But technically they could if they really wanted to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But they got the replica train station.

[James Petregallo]

That is wild. So reviews of this town, they got that though. That's very important. Reviews of this town. Four stars. Here is the first one. Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We're asking you.

[James Petregallo]

You're the one leaving the review. Okay. That's the thing. If someone brings you food and you eat it and they go, how was your lunch? And you go, depends on who you asked. Who the fuck else am I asking? You ate the Sandwich. Tell me whether it was good or not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're here, fucker.

[James Petregallo]

It's okay. Kind of quiet and used to be low crime but the past couple years it has spiked due to the high drug activity that's taken over the whole county that Princeton is in. And that's pretty much all of West Virginia at this point. Mostly property crimes or theft. Well we'll see about that later. We have the stats here so depends on which part of Princeton you live. But the more rural areas in Mercer county outside of Princeton in my opinion are better choices on where to live if you're going to move here. That's where our story takes place. Go more rural. Yes. Outside. Outside of this tiny town and we'll talk about it. It's not very big. The job market in Princeton to me are much to be desired are there are as there are way more banks, fast food restaurants and used car lots than anything else. Leaving not a lot of choice unless you're fine with these types of jobs. So that's every small town, limited employment. That's what you get. Three stars. Crime is everywhere.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Whether wherever you go you are going to have crime. There's crime here. You just don't hear of it that often. Okay. So it's not affecting you. That's good. I think that mainly the problem is neighbors disrespecting neighbors. Really? That doesn't sound like crime. That just sounds like people are dicks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That sounds awful.

[James Petregallo]

I know I've had to call the cops a few times at where I live just because of the neighbors. Either they're being too loud or simply being rude. You call the cops because your neighbors are rude. We can't do that. You can't be building fucking replica train stations and wasting resources because your people. You gotta think for a minute where you live. And this is valuable resources here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hello, 911. Yeah. Bill didn't say good morning.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's a high crime area but rudeness is really what we should worry about. Wow. But I've come to realize that no matter where you go, you're going to have problems. Yeah. You just described everywhere one star. I love this one star. There is no nightlife in Princeton. The Applebee's in town is open until 11. That's the nightlife. The Applebee's. And that's the closest thing to nightlife that this town gets. The bars here are dives and so full of crime any decent person will be too scared to go in them. Picture wild and wonderful whites of West Virginia. Picture those Bars.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Illegal slot, shirtless slot players and pill snorting off the back of a dirty toilet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hello, 911? There's a barbecue next door. Is it too loud? No, they didn't invite me.

[James Petregallo]

They didn't invite me. And it smells good too. They got rich.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That is downright rude.

[James Petregallo]

I smell groundhog cooking. All right. One star lived here for 20 years. The Princeton and surrounding areas have to become terrible. Have to become terrible. Okay. I think have become terrible. And they put two in there for some reason. The roads around here are extremely dangerous with no police presence. There's all kinds of trash and debris everywhere. I'm giving it a one star town. It used to be a nice place to live, but no more. There's very little activity for children. It's pretty much right disgusting of a place. The crime rate is no punctuation at all here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is awesome.

[James Petregallo]

The crime rate is high with a bunch of drug overdoses. People are stealing items all the time. It really looks bad on the state for people visiting the area. There definitely needs to be more police on patrol. People are just doing as they please. Five exclamation points. That's the first punctuation we've come to at one time. This town used to be very nice. I apologize to people visiting our area. Wow, apologies.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Five exclamations after that apology. Population of this town, 5,885. So less than 6,000. It's a small area. It really is 51% male, which is not normal. It's usually a few little extra female, but more male. But you get anywhere where there's like coal jobs and stuff, you're gonna have a couple more males. Median age is about five years higher than the normal. It's 43 here. Family here. It's less than the 50. 50 are married. More people are single with children. It's kind of a. Yeah, less of a. Seems like usually a small town like this has like, you know, high, like quote unquote family numbers. And this doesn't. So that's interesting. Race in this town, 85.4% white, 6.6% black, 0.4% Asian, 3.8% Hispanic. And let's see here. The unemployment rate here is 7%, which is a good site. Higher than the rest of the country, where it's hovering in the fours here, which is not uncommon for West Virginia because those jobs go away. Median household income here, though, is only $39,569 a year, which is about 30,000 less than the national Average is not good. And the cost of living though, 100 is regular. Average. Here it is 71. It's a lower. Housing here though is the lowest one of all, of everything. The median home cost here is $140,800.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Median still too high.

[James Petregallo]

It seems high. Yeah. Not making any money. But if we've convinced you, you know what, I'm going to West Virginia. If you have just John Denver just bouncing around in your head over and over and you need it, gotta get it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

We have for you the Princeton West Virginia real estate report. Average two bedroom rental here goes for about $730 a month, which is $500 less than national average. Yeah. Very low. Here is a three bedroom, one bath, 1,000 square foot house. All of the pictures are like from a distance and from the outside. So that tells you a lot. No interior shots whatsoever. It is listed at $15,000, but.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh my God.

[James Petregallo]

15,000. But the listing says disregard listing price. Property will be sold at auction.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, you can get it cheaper.

[James Petregallo]

Cheaper. Property was sold at public auction ending Monday, February 17th at 6pm and you do online bids only. So you can pick that house up for less than like a 10 year old Toyota Corolla. Enjoy. Here is a four bedroom, four bath T bowl for each and every. Right here. 2,296 square feet. It's a cool old house actually. This is, it's very old. Really nice. It has, the listing says it has the old home charm, but with all the essential updates. They have all the original wood pocket doors entering the living room spaces and shit. Those doors that go into the walls?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Come out. A lot of people got rid of those back in the day and they're kind of popular now because they're an old school feature. They still have. There's a lot of cool old features in this house. It's really nice. 295,000 bucks for that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

It's a big house. 2300 square feet. Not bad. And then this house is goddamn awesome. Six bed, five bath, 6,600 square feet. Enormous.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holy shit.

[James Petregallo]

It's beautiful. On one and a half acres. It's just a cool house. It's obviously haunted. Now that's a, that's a separate issue if you can live with the hauntings.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fine ghosts with black lung.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. But the, the, it has a lot of. It's like kind of farty. Like rooms will have like old timey wallpaper in them and stuff. But all the original moldings around the ceilings are all there. There's a fucking library in this with a wall that's completely bookshelved.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All books.

[James Petregallo]

It's so cool. It's just a cool ass house. The listing says, quote, it's your turn to own the queen of Princeton, West Virginia. So this house is known as the Queen of West. Of Princeton, West Virginia.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's the apple of the eye.

[James Petregallo]

If you would like to be the queen of Prince Princeton, West Virginia. We have for you this house. 485,000 bucks. The best house in the entire county. 485,000 bucks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

6,000 square feet.

[James Petregallo]

6,600 square feet. It's beautiful too. I'm telling you, if it was anywhere else, I'd be like, that's fucking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Let's go an acreage with that. Or is it even if it's one.

[James Petregallo]

Acre, one and a half acres.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's amazing.

[James Petregallo]

Big old. Nice property. It's fucking great. It's what I mean, this is a great property. It's the queen, damn it. Things to do, Celebrate Princeton Festival. That's what it's called. Oh, yeah. This is just a shitload of performances by different people. And we'll get into all of them in the coveted 10am to 11am slot, which all the musicians love. It is strings of green. Green with an e. So it must be a guy named Green. Yeah, I assume. Or a lady named Green. I don't know. Then the 11 o'clock slot, you got the Fluidity Performance Troupe. I don't know what the hell they do. At 11:30, into the Fog will perform.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hell yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Okay, interesting 1:30 Appalachian Soul Man, Aristotle Jones. It says will be there. Appalachian soul man Aristotle, named after a Greek philosopher.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't need to hear that.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. 3:30 James Hart and Old Soul Reunion will be there and then other ones that'll just be popping up throughout the day. Lily Comer, Big fan of Lily Comer. James Hart. H A R T. Yeah, sure. Okay. Brett's brother Miles. Monique. It's Monique with a U instead of an O. Emma Shirey. And finally, of course, John Bolt will be there. You got to have John Bolt. Is it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is it with an E?

[James Petregallo]

No, no E on that one. Just a bolt in a fucking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, a bolt in a piece of single. One of these people. Never heard about it, to be honest.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking crazy. I don't think there's. Yeah, these are locals, I would imagine, from the area here also. All day, Ferris wheel, water slides, vendors and other activities. Okay, that's great here. And they also have the Culture Fest world music and arts festival in Princeton, West Virginia, they also have that. So I don't know what you want to do with that. And there's also a. They have a workshop and healing arts section to that, which is a lot of yoga in the town square and things of that nature. So get on in there and do it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The entertainment in this area is bleak. But if Applebee's is all you've got at night, this is probably fucking amazing.

[James Petregallo]

That's something. You know what I mean? It's this or Applebee's. Jesus Christ. Or shirtless guys playing slots.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like, Yeah, I guarantee you they play karaoke and fucking trivia night. You have to Monday through Friday every night.

[James Petregallo]

Otherwise there's nothing else to do. Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in here, property crime, almost double the national average.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

That's a lot. You guys really should.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's nobody here.

[James Petregallo]

Stop building.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And they're all criminals.

[James Petregallo]

Should stop building fancy railroad stations. You don't need.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Use that for the jail.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ. Or the drug rehab centers or something. I don't know what the fuck. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about 50% higher than the national average.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's dangerous as fuck.

[James Petregallo]

There's less than 6,000 people here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What's going on?

[James Petregallo]

This should be a leave your doors open kind of town. And it is not at all. Leave your doors. If you leave your doors open, you will wake up with your bed stolen out from under you. It sounds like you'll wake up on the floor with your comforter and your pillow and your little sleep cap on. Go. What the hell happened?

[Jimmy Whisman]

They might take your sleep.

[James Petregallo]

Those criminals are good. Jesus, I didn't even hear it. So that said, let's talk about some murder here, because this is deep, weird shit. All right, let's talk about a lady first. Mary Naomi Lewis. Okay. She's born in 1943. Mary Naomi. She goes by Naomi. Everyone calls her Naomi. The Mary she's not interested in at all. Naomi's kind of a cooler name. It is, you know, Mary is. Especially if you. 1943, every half the girls were named Mary. So it's like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, but Mary's that like, most important one in the.

[James Petregallo]

In the religion.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, that's a big one.

[James Petregallo]

Naomi sounds. Yeah, she's like blonde Hambell. She's like blonde and curvy and sexy too. Everybody says like, she's like 5:1, but as a rack on her. Everyone talks about, like, literally a guy. A guy described her as having A great quote, a great rack. That's why I said that as later on. So that's the reason why it was put like that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Love that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Shapely and attractive. The newspaper described her as Mary. No, that's a Naomi right there. She looked in the mirror and said, oh, I'm fucking Naomi. This is crazy. This ass is too smoking to be Mary here. So in 1972 she meets a man. Now she seems to come from a half decent background. Her father owns a business I know and has employees and stuff like that. So she's not from, you know, some. This isn't the wild and wonderful whites of West Virginia. Okay, Put it that way. She's pretty classy. And later on we'll talk about another classy guy. But first we'll talk about a guy who's not classy at all. In 1972 she meets John Elmer Corpru Jr. Corporate Corperu. Okay, John Elmer Jr. Yeah, I'm calling him John Elmer for the rest of the episode because Elmer's. That's a good name. He's born in 1932, so he's about 11 years older than her. He is described as, quote, balding, middle aged and not particularly handsome. Well, what a. Sounds like a great catch. Wow, great catch there. And she finds him apparently irresistible.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. She was working as his secretary, this guy. Which is weird because the fact when we hear about his life, it's the fact that he has a secretary at any point in his life is insane to me. Mind blowing. It's good to be a man in 1972. I guess. I don't know. That's how it is. Because he's got nothing to offer, this guy. But he does have the fact that they've been continuously and enthusiastically in a sexual relationship since 1972. When she was his secretary at a frozen food business.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So that's how they met.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And these Van de Camp's got me worked up, man.

[James Petregallo]

Fish. Nothing turns me on like fish sticks. That's the thing. It's all it is, man. I'm telling you. Those. Oh boy. Whatever potatoes there, the frozen. When they give me. They drive me crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Get me going.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really though. The frozen food section, you walk down, they all. Everything looks pretty good.

[James Petregallo]

I gotta stay out of the frozen food section, man. Just. I mean two messence all the way through it. I gotta. I gotta move on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's very few things in there though that when they're done, you've made them. They're all shit.

[James Petregallo]

They're all shit. Except for like a Red Baron frozen pizza comes out. Wonderful. Outside of that piece of shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Things in there that are.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, all the pizza things are fine. Pizza rolls great. You know what? Yeah, yeah. Everything else, piles of shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All those fries, the tater tots, all that stuff.

[James Petregallo]

Garbage comes out like garbage unless you air fry it just right. Garbage.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So he's also a diabetic and has all sorts of physical problems that he. Really hot. Right? Hot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's just throwing dick at his secretary.

[James Petregallo]

And she's loving it. And he puts all this on his military service. They said he injured himself in military service. And I don't know if he was in Korea. He was born in 32, so Korea would line up perfectly for sure him to be in any kind of combat situation. And I guess now he's on disability after the frozen food business. He ends up being. So he's a balding middle aged diabetic who's not particularly handsome and is living on disability.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ouch.

[James Petregallo]

A catch. A real. That's a catch right there. How's he doing it? I don't know. Apparently Naomi as over the next few years that we'll talk about here. When she meets a man, she just keeps the relationship going with John Elmer here. And you play the guitar, dude. This guy, I don't know if he must be really funny or something. I don't know what the fucking deal is. But she gives him all sorts of money. Everything from money to get his driveway paved to buy a boat. This man has a boat. I don't have a boat.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's buying concrete.

[James Petregallo]

She's buying fucking floating vehicles.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

This is crazy. Now John Elmer's a high school graduate who did attend technical school. And he has to take medication daily for a nervous condition that he's been treated for at the VA hospital. So he also says he has to inject insulin daily because he's a diabetic as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Solves his problems is eating pussy.

[James Petregallo]

That makes him feel so much better. So he's an a balding, middle aged, nervous conditioned man who's not particularly handsome and living on disability. I'm adding up his stats.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Diabetes.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. And basically they would meet up regularly for sex on various points along Route 460, whatever, motels, sometimes in the car. That's because a couple years after they start hooking up, she gets married.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

And just never stops having sex with John Elmer. She just ignores the fact that she's married. Nice. Right? This is good. She's married to David Cloud. Cloud. Just like a Cloud in the sky. Some people call him Dave, but most people call him DB for some reason.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like Cooper.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's middle initial is B. So DB they call him so DB Cloud. He's born in 1926, so almost. He's 17 years older than her. And he's a real wealthy guy. Does real well for himself. She found stability with this guy. Hey, everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about one of our favorites, simply safe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, simplisafe.coms I m p l I safe dot com.

[James Petregallo]

That's absolutely correct. And if you're anything like us, most important thing for you is probably protecting your family from harm, right? I mean, nothing else matters. If people are coming into your house and murdering your whole family and robbing your house, what's the difference? That's why us here at Small Town Murder, along with millions of other Americans, we trust Simplisafe with our home security. It's great. Both our studios, our homes, everything that we have is protected with Simplisafe because it is the best security you're going to get. You can install it incredibly easy on your own. Even I can do it. And I can't put IKEA furniture together. It's so good. I'm telling you. Start the year out with greater peace of mind. Visit simplisafe.comsmall to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's simplisafe.com/s I-m p l I safe.com small there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

Hey, everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more from our wonderfully fashionable friends over at Quint's. The holidays are here. Winter's here. I like it. I like being cozy. I like the fire. I like blankets. It's wonderful. When it comes to winter, it's like survival of the fittest. And I'm willing to do or buy whatever I can do to stay cozy. I'm going to be cozy whether you like it or not out there. Everybody telling you for the ultimate cold weather necessities made from premium materials. You got to check out Quint's. We like quints. I love the stuff I got from quints. I got a really cool jacket that I'm wearing. Happily during this winter time. Jimmy got his fleece pants. Keeping cool right now. Doing well out there in Arizona.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Keep me warm next to an electric fireplace.

[James Petregallo]

That's What I'm talking about luxurious. Luxuriate in coziness without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.com smalltown murder for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Quince Q-U-I-N C E.com smalltownmurder to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com smalltownmurder now back to the show. He's the vice president and general manager of Carter Machinery Company, which is a Salem based company that has offices in West Virginia and a headquarter, I guess, in Roanoke that he goes to sometimes, too. And basically, Naomi marries DB For a couple of months. She puts the John Elmer relationship on the back burner and then just fires it right back up again like she's never got married and continues along with it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's living that old joke of find a. Find a woman that has a bunch of money and find a woman that fucks great and never under any circumstances. Let them meet.

[James Petregallo]

Let them meet. Yeah. Yeah, that's. I think that's what she's doing. She figured it out. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

She figured it out. She would often. She's in the local newspaper all the time, photographed at social events or she's like one of the queens of Princeton. I mean.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

She ends up owning a beauty parlor here. She's got. So she's got her own shop. She's a business owner. Her husband's wealthy. They live in a nice house. They do much better than most of the people around here. So they're kind of like local royalty, these people, is the way it works. She is a member of the Downtown Merchants association and all that shit. Very kind of, you know, stable.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Exemplary.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah. They're just, you know. I don't know how to put it, but they're civic leaders too, and all that kind of shit. She's also operates the Merle Norman cosmetics franchise in the area. So she got herself a cosmetics franchise as well. She operates that. And she's also active in a lot of social events and things like that. Everybody knows her from around here. I even found a newspaper article with her playing in some golf tournament. It says there'll be 96 women golfers teeing off in the sixth annual Fincastle Women's Golf Championship Tournament this morning on the Fincastle course. And they're playing 36 holes, two rounds. That's a lot. Yeah, so that's how that's going. But she's in the group here, so, I mean, I think that's one of the 1978. 79. So I mean, I really think this is like a social thing. Obviously that's 96 richest women in town are going to go there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Late 70s, early 80s. The only people that played gold golf were very. The very wealthy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Nowadays you have people that are regular guys go out and pay way too much money to do something they'll never get good at because they can't afford to get good at. You have to be rich to get good at golf. That's the problem, right?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You have to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's the most frustrating fucking thing on the planet too.

[James Petregallo]

It's crazy. It's like hockey or something. Like you have to have ice time to be good at hockey. So it's one of those things. You need the ice, you need the course. You can't just practice at home. So that's the setup here. Okay? That's everybody. She's got a great life with db. They do all sorts of shit, you know, on the surface and that everybody sees and she's in the newspaper and all that. And then she goes and bangs the ugly middle aged balding diabetic with nervous, nervous issues who lives on disability hotel.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Room off of Route 80 or whatever.

[James Petregallo]

The fuck it was, and gives him like an envelope full of cash to get his roof fixed. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like the gender roles are usually swapped here.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Unbelievable. This is really weird. So January 26, 1980, we're gonna start with. Okay, just before midnight. As the Rolling Stones once said. Here, the. This. Okay, they're out. They go to a party. It's a dinner party. This is, this is what rich people do. Have you ever gone to a dinner party at the Sahara Club?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, you could have stopped at dinner party.

[James Petregallo]

Yep, I went and ate at someone's house a couple of times. Wouldn't call it a dinner party, but.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nope, you know, I went to a Super bowl party.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they went to a dinner party at the Sahara Club in Bluefield, which is about 12 miles from where they live. And they have a great night, such a great night. Then when they get home just before midnight, he's still. He is still holding a glass of booze from the event. He brought a glass home with him, he said.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Brought a roadie.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he pocketed it. And not even like a little bottle, a full glass. Fucking tink, tink, tink. Yeah. Ice tinking around in there as they go over bumps and shit. So they're returning from this, I assume, you know, a little intoxicated the two of them. It's obviously dark in the yard, which is weird because they have floodlights that usually are motion sensored.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So they're like, why the fuck aren't the lights coming on? This is stupid. So they go around to the back door, which I guess is how they usually enter, which everybody's got a different way. They get in their house. Yeah, some people, front door. Some people, it's a side door.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They always go through the fucking garage. They never open their door.

[James Petregallo]

That's the other thing. Yeah. My mother and stepfather, I don't think they opened their door for like 12 years. Like it was all garage access.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They go to pop it and it's just dust falls around.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, it's wild. Yeah. It just disintegrates in your hand. So they're just about. He's got a glass in one hand, his keys in the other, and he's just about to put the key in the lock to open up the door when out of nowhere, a masked man. According to Naomi, a masked man toting a 12 gauge shotgun jumps out from the shadows.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

And demands money from Dave. Give me all your money. Weird place for a robbery. Weird place to get stuck up in your backyard. It's not even like in town. This is like rural, outside of town. So unexpected. Before Dave can do anything, he's standing there with a fucking scotch in one hand and a. Goddamn. He's got a single malt in one hand and a house key in the other.

[Jimmy Whisman]

House in the other.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he's standing there. This guy from point blank range just blasts him in the face with the 12 gauge.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Taking a lot of his head with it, as you can imagine. Yeah, that's. That's brutal. I mean, right in the face from. From, you know, me to you from right now, you know what I mean? Four feet away. That's fucking insane. Okay, I guess this was just obviously loud. There is spatter and brain matter and skull all over the fucking house. All over. Naomi, who is right next to him when this happened? This man after that shoots him and then just runs out, takes off through the. Takes off, runs into the front. Got no money, didn't rob him ever. That's the thing. So that's really weird. Later on they'll find out he's got $150 in his pocket, which is 1980. $150 cash. It's a good amount of money.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a good haul.

[James Petregallo]

Didn't take anything, though. And very strange. Give me all Your money. Boom. Fuck it. I'm running real weird. It's not like Dave went for the gun or said, fuck you and threw the drink at him or anything like that. He just turned like, huh. You're buzzed. He's been at a cocktail party. He's still got a drink. What's going on now? Boom. That's all it was. Now, this is obviously insane. Cause of death is massive head loss, basically.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, yeah, Half your head's missing. Do I need to go into any more autopsy details? I mean, it's. Yeah, it's horrifying.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The Iceman said his head disappeared. Yeah, that's kind of what it is.

[James Petregallo]

That's kind of what it is here. Yeah. A good, good portion of his head is all over the side of the house now, so. And all over the lawn. So at this moment, obviously, you know, Naomi calls 91 1. Yeah. She's left unscathed, minus some extra viscera covering her. She calls 911, cops, ambulance. Everybody gets there. It's a crazy scene. The whole neighborhood is cordoned off, everything like that. Now, when they canvass for witnesses, witnesses say they find multiple different witnesses, not just from the same household, that say they saw two men cruising in this neighborhood multiple times that night. That. That don't live there, just driving around, driving around. But the same guys in the same car multiple times cruising around the neighborhood. So they're like. That might be a place to start, obviously, because they didn't belong here. And they weren't stopping at anyone's house or anything like that. So the cops right away are a little bit suspicious of this whole situation. One, why would someone try to rob somebody, then shoot them and then not take the money and leave a living witness standing right next to them and not take her money either. Didn't even grab her purse on the way out. You know what I mean? Nothing. It's odd. It's odd.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Robbery as a motive is a bizarre choice here.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. But also, you might get a crackhead who got nervous and fucking pulled the trigger when he didn't mean to. And then said, oh, shit, and ran away. And that happens, too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That would make you panic if you didn't mean to hurt anybody.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah. Oh, shit. I shot Marvin in the face. It'd be a Pulp Fiction moment, you know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like a lunatic.

[James Petregallo]

You hit a bump. I didn't hit no goddamn bump. So, yeah, they. From the beginning, they said it just didn't make any sense. This is one of the county district attorneys. Said it just didn't fit the mold. Why would he be sitting in their backyard waiting for them to come home, not knowing when they'd come home or who would be with them or not knowing what they were carrying? He could have got coming home with his brand new gun he just got from. You know what I mean? He won in a raffle at the dinner party. And you have no idea. Or he could have been coming home with his friend who's the chief of police. Or, you know, it wouldn't make any sense at all. Or they might have got home at 3 in the morning. Is this guy gonna take a nap back there waiting?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just being a West Virginian that probably carries a fucking sidearm, you know what I mean?

[James Petregallo]

You never know. That's the other thing. Who the hell knows here? So they said Naomi, though, definitely appeared genuinely traumatized after this, they said, which anybody should be, unless they're a really sick fuck. They would be traumatized by wearing a lot of their husband's brain matter on their fucking clothes. They said she had never seen this type of thing before. And, yeah, she was described as grief stricken. People said she was hysterical at times. And everybody said it was very normal distress. Because right away you look at the spouse, if you're at all suspicious of the whole thing, you look at the spouse first and look at her reaction. And if she's going, oh, boy, that sucks. And shrugging her shoulders, you're like, that's crazy. You want to see some tears, some horror, some shaking, trying to pick the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Head up and put Humpty back together again. Something, something.

[James Petregallo]

Give me something here. So, yeah, they said that it was obviously horrible. So her family and friends rallied around her and things like that. They asked where she was standing and she said, standing right beside him. So, I mean, she. While she was sobbing and everything else. So following this, they have the report of the two men in a car driving around. And that's pretty much all they have. They got nothing else. I mean, it's a shotgun. Shotgun pellets. So there's no way to trace anything there. You just have a dead guy and a woman who says, I don't know. It was dark, I had a mask on, asked for money, shot him and ran away. I have no fucking idea. So that we're at an impasse.

[Jimmy Whisman]

1982, is that what it is?

[James Petregallo]

It's 1980. January 1980. There's no physical evidence. Is not scarce. Yeah, you better see the motherfucker do it if you want anybody to get in trouble. So this leads to a Nine month investigation, which, I mean, and David Cloud has adult children. This is his second marriage, obviously. He married a younger attractive woman the second time here and had some kids from the first marriage. So all of his kids are like, what the fuck here? You know what I mean? How can you not solve this in nine months? They put up a reward and everything like that. So they said, the investigators, they pieced together other things here. They got to piece together these two. David's life, DB's life, and Naomi's life, because that's the wife. Piece it all together. And they started noticing that the marital circumstances weren't exactly like she was saying. And everything, everything wasn't what it looked like from the outside. Which is the most upstanding couple in town. And everything's, you know, hunky dory. And they find out, except for the fact that she's been banging this other guy for years. So there's that. They find out about it. Absolutely. You dig into somebody's shit enough, you're gonna find out who they're having sex with. And they also said $150 remained in his wallet, which was in his pocket. Not a robbery. So they said that was weird. And they said the fact that she was completely unscathed is odd. Also, who kills one person and not two? So after a while, they keep going over everything. All of Dave's, all of DB's office shit, just anyone he could have encountered that could have pissed him, he could have pissed off, or someone would have thought he had a lot of something that they could steal or something like that. So they found John Elmer's name written on his daily calendar in his office.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really.

[James Petregallo]

So John Coru written down on there. So basically, they were going through his calendar, talking to every single person in his Rolodex, in his calendar. Anybody who knows can't hurt.

[Jimmy Whisman]

John's got an appointment with him at some point.

[James Petregallo]

It's just written on his calendar. So they didn't know. They're like, did they meet or was this just. Did he just write it down because there was paper right there, or is he suspecting? So investigating John Elmer, they figure out that John and Naomi have been having an affair here. And they find out that there's been marital problems between Naomi and DB that nobody knew about except for those two. And that's gotten to the point where DB had begun his own investigation into his wife's activities.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All set.

[James Petregallo]

Especially her telephone calls. He had phone records pulled and he was investigating. So police learn that John Elmer Corporue's telephone and utilities were in Naomi's name, but not Naomi Cloud. Naomi Lewis. She put it in her maiden name. That's why they didn't find it at first.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's paying his water bill.

[James Petregallo]

She's paying his fucking electric bill, dude.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

The telephone company revealed. Records revealed that John and Naomi had been in touch very frequently between September of 89 and the day of the murder, January 26, 1980. Core had made 10 calls to Naomi during that time frame. She called him 41 times, including 26 calls in January and four times on the day of the murder. Okay, that's not good. No, that looks bad. That looks bad. Even if you had nothing to do with anything, it just looks bad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Four times. You've been busy all night. What the fuck?

[James Petregallo]

That is weird. That's absolutely weird. And they also figured out that as a result of David's death, Naomi receives not only some property that they had together, but also between 90 and $100,000 in insurance money.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, that's good.

[James Petregallo]

Which. Which is, you know, probably a half million dollars nowadays.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So now they're like, okay, we have all of this. We have a weird setting and a weird murder that happened. And we have all of these things, but these are all just like parts floating by themselves everywhere, not connected to each other exactly. There's a lot of pieces and a lot of dots not connected here. Someone needs to take a big crayon on that Denny's menu and make a fucking start.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Start drawing the star.

[James Petregallo]

Make the Moons over Miami breakfast, you know, so make the Eiffel Tower, please. So they're. They got to put all this case together, and they come up with a guy through a tip, and we'll find out about this. But they make an arrest, actually, in the case, they find a guy who we've never heard of to this point. His name is George Ballard Guthrie ii. So Junior Junior, another Junior George, second.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Could skip generation, but he's still named after somebody.

[James Petregallo]

George Ballard Guthrie. Yeah, the second. He's born 1951. So he's the youngest of this lot of fucking luminaries that we've been discussing here. He's described as a, quote, chronic misfit and self described drug addict who lives in Roanoke, Virginia. So that's who we're dealing with here. Piece of shit here. So anyway, they hear that they need to talk to Guthrie, so they go to Virginia, the West Virginia officers, and accompanied by Virginia officers as well, they search for Guthrie and find him about 9:25pm One night at a garage where he was doing bodywork on a car. Oh. So the Virginia officers arrest him because it's Virginia, and drove him some distance away to their headquarters in Salem, Virginia. Now, here's the thing. Rather than taking him to the local Roanoke magistrate for whom they'd gotten the fugitive warrant for, to get him, the magistrate was on call, and they were aware that they would return to present Guthrie. But the West Virginia trooper requested, hey, can we make a detour so I can question him before we go? Actually take him to the magistrate to do the proper legal, you know, things that we have to do, because you have to bring him there, and then before you can take him to Virginia, that guy has to say, okay, he has to waive extradition. It's a whole thing. So instead, here, Guthrie was read his Miranda rights in the police car, and then once again, at police headquarters. The trip to the police station took approximately 20 minutes, and they arrived at about 9:45pm at the police station, Guthrie was taken into a small office, and they said he appeared normal at the time. Now, all of his friends and family who'd been around him said he definitely wasn't normal that day. He was visibly intoxicated, couldn't stand up properly, had red and droopy eyes, and was very shaky. Doing great is what that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

That says. Please work on my fenders is what that says. Go ahead and bang that dent out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That man was just doing bodywork in the.

[James Petregallo]

He was doing body work. Yeah. So the Virginia. Virginia.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wavy fender.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I would say so. He's gonna go. It's perfect. Look at it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Laser strike.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. The Virginia policeman who was there, he left to get supplies to fingerprint and process Guthrie, because apparently they didn't have fingerprinting supplies at the police station. So the Virginia. The West Virginia officer began questioning him. He signed a written waiver and confessed by 1040. Wow. Confessed that he was the trigger man in this whole thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How'd we get to him?

[James Petregallo]

We'll get to that. We'll get to that. Okay, now, that's what's going on here. He says, yes, it's me. I did it. By 1040, that's over with. And he's taken before the magistrate in Roanoke, which they were supposed to do first. Okay. Now, his older brother, Guthrie's older brother had driven from Roanoke to Salem police headquarters at the same time that Guthrie went. He demanded to see his brothers, but they said that they would not interrupt the interrogation. You're not his attorney, and he's not demanding it, so. No. So the brother Was unable to speak to him until later on. So he was like, shit. Now, that same night, John Elmer is arrested in Virginia as well, but he's taken directly to a magistrate without being questioned. So here is the allegation. They claim here that Naomi got her boyfriend John Elmer to hire this guy Guthrie to kill D.B. oh, okay. And they think it's for 2,500 bucks. Because that's what Guthrie said. He got it for 2,500. Well, it's west Virginia, which, like I said, very low prices. Now, in 1980.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a pretty.

[James Petregallo]

1980 in West Virginia. You could buy a house for that there. I'm not even fucking kidding you. You could probably buy a $2,500 house, considering there's a $10,000 house available right now. Yeah, this is fucking 45 years ago. So you could probably get a house there now. They go. And they also arrest Naomi here. They said, yeah, got to arrest him here. So they end up with. They do that. They go to arrest her. They say she received between 90 and $100,000 and she got all the benefits for this. So they indict her, but she never spends a night in jail. Right when they indict her, they give her a bail of $50,000, which she immediately puts a property of hers up for a building she owns, an apartment building she owns in Princeton, and away she goes. So they let her leave. She doesn't have to stay in jail, which is wild if you're. This is a. This is a man's dead. It's a murder conspiracy. And they're like, Well, I mean, 50 grand is fine, right?

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's missing a head.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. That's fucking wild. So she then moves to Huntington, West Virginia, and gets a job selling cars at a car dealership.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that right?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. She's a good salesman, by the way, from what I've heard. Salesperson. And she moves in with another man now, a new boyfriend, Bernie Stanley, who used to work for her father, who she's known for years, and we don't have any idea she might have been having a relationship with this whole time as well. Yeah, Bernie. We can't get him to say shit. So. Bernie.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. What about Elmer?

[James Petregallo]

John Elmer's in jail. Sitting there waiting. He doesn't have bail money.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

He's in jail. They arrested John Elmer? Yeah. They took him right to the magistrate. Remember, they didn't take the sidetrack, but this guy. I mean, she went immediately into moving in with this guy in Huntington. So I feel like this has been going on for quite a while.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Obviously he's aware of something.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, and she is. God knows how much other shit she's been getting into. So at the pre trial stuff for Guthrie, his pretrial stuff comes up first. A full suppression hearing is heard now because he wants his confession suppressed. Yeah, it's April 1981. His counsel moves to suppress his inculpatory statement because it was made after a delay in presentment to a magistrate. And it was. They also said it wasn't voluntarily given because Guthrie was too intoxicated to knowingly waive his rights. Trial court ruled the confession admissible.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh boy.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. So they said that the delay was not unreasonable or so lengthy that it justified the exclusion of the confession because it was like two hours from the time they got to the police station to the time that he saw the magistrates. They go, that two hours isn't long enough to make it whatever. So he found that Guthrie had been under the influence of speed and beer, but was not so severely intoxicated that he was without capacity to know what he was doing when he confessed. They're like, listen, what person roaming around Virginia at night, West Virginia at 9:30 at night isn't under the influence of some speed or beer?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, we picked him up from work, he's fine.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he's obviously shithammered. So then they get John Elmer Corporue in there. So Guthrie is now clammed up, wants the confession tossed. He wants to say he's being what he says. So they get core and core, just absolutely spills his fucking guts. Like he has been wanting to go to a therapist for 20 years and finally got to. He's like, let me tell you about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My dad staring at the ghost of whoever he murdered for the last 20 years. Every night when he goes to sleep and he's, I gotta tell somebody. He just ghosts to go away.

[James Petregallo]

And the sweetheart deal he gets. He did the right fucking thing here. So he said that the husband's death came up in a conversation in late summer 1979. It's about a six month thing that we built up to. He says, quote, we were seeing each other, calling each other on the telephone and going to various motels and staying a while there, having dinner and things like that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And things like that.

[James Petregallo]

Okay, Just having an affair, basically. He said the first time that the murder was mentioned was in a, quote, motel in Blacksburg. She said that she would like to get somebody to kill her husband. And I said, well, it startled me at first. And I said, you had Better forget that. That's a serious thing. Like, listen, we're fucking in motels and you're paving my driveway and everything, but, you know, murder. Come on. Murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Serious?

[James Petregallo]

That's crazy. I got a pretty easy life right now. I'm fucking without effort or money. I'm.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is great, serious of a relationship. This is. We're booty calls.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. Well, no, they said that they were going to get. They were going to get married. They talked about her and John Elmer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My God.

[James Petregallo]

So he said it was not too long after that, a week or 10 days at a motel, I believe it was in Rich Creek, Virginia. She said she needed to find somebody to really get rid of him. This time she really meant it. She asked me if I would help her. He. And then he told her he would, quote, ask around, which sounds like, I'll stall for a while while you still buy me shit and pay my phone bill and fuck me and hopefully you'll forget about this because that's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Same response you give a friend that's like, I'm moving. Can you help me find somebody to sublet my apartment?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, I'll see what's going on. I'll put it on Facebook or something. I don't know. So he also, John Elmer said they talked several times on the phone, and she asked me each time had I contacted anybody. This was. She was not giving up. Like, this wasn't going away. So I told her I had checked around about some pills that could cause him to have a heart attack or something. And we met and talked about that. This is not the original plan, a shotgun murder in the backyard. The original plan is maybe I can get a hold of some drugs. Yeah, that we can. Whatever. So John Elmer says, though Naomi feared what they would find in an autopsy and said, what if they find it? Who are they going to blame it on? They're going to blame it on me. That's crazy. So she said, no, good pills, bad, not going to happen. Okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're not going to find a shotgun blast to the head in an autopsy.

[James Petregallo]

No. No. But a masked man in the dark is a ghost. I guess they thought.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Who's bought fucking cyanide in the past?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And who has access to his food, shit like that, you know? So he says, I was very much involved with her and she. I guess she used her body to influence me on that. He says she used her body. Oh, that's fucking hilarious. She was buying me this and buying me that. She just said that we would go To Hawaii and places like that. The gender roles are real reversed here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's wild.

[James Petregallo]

She also promised to marry him, like she promised she would get him pregnant, too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. I'll do this the rest of my life.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He said that DB Cloud worked occasionally in Roanoke. And after he contacted Guthrie in November and discussed a price of $2,500 with a $500 bonus, too, they said maybe a bonus if you get it done here. And, you know, signing bonus, you gotta have that. All murder, good murderers need a signing bonus. Otherwise, they'll sign with somebody else. That's what happens. So they considered killing Cloud in Roanoke, but Corpru said that Guthrie didn't like that idea. So, John Elmer Coru said that on the day of the murder, he and Naomi had several conversations. Quote, she had called, and she said she thought tonight would be a good night to do it because they were going to dinner at some nightclub in Bluefield. He said they talked about how the murder would be done. It was decided that it would occur outside the Princeton home, which. That's the other thing, because then they changed their mind at one point and decide to do it inside. He said, quote, she said she would leave the keys under the milk box. They still had a milk box. Look at that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Delivered. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. She said probably the best way to do it would be to unscrew the floodlights and wait for them to come home, and then he could commit the crime there. And for him to go into the house and ransack the house and wait upstairs for them, basically go in ransack. I'll break off from him. Once we get in the house, you shoot him and take the fuck off. That's how it works. Or you get your boy to shoot him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And that. That unscrew the lights part is real fucking diabolical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's incriminating as fuck because they were out.

[James Petregallo]

They were definitely. Yeah, the lights were gone and one of them was broken, as we'll talk about. They found one of the floodlights smashed and broken. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Thrive Market. Absolutely. Get yourself some delicious healthy food. And that's what we're post holidays. We're trying to get ourselves back together. So Thrive Market makes it so easy to find these better options without all this hassle. One of the favorite features that I like on here is the Healthy Swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. It's simple, really easy to use. You can scan any items, and it'll suggest a cleaner, healthier alternative for it for groceries and everything gets delivered right to your door and you get savings on every offer. Also, I like the smart cart thing. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it takes, this is, it takes a little bit of stress out of the junk food replacement program here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

You create an account, Thrive Market asks the right questions and automatically builds a grocery cart tailored to your needs filled with healthier alternatives for your favorite brands. So then you can just adjust it, add or remove items before checking out. So many cool stuff. So many cool items in there and stuff that I didn't know you could even make. Delicious. And they make it delicious and it's really good. Ready for a junk free start to 2025, head to thrivemarket.com Small Town Murder and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's Thrive T H R I V E market.com Smalltown Murder thrivemarket.com Small Town Murder this show, Small Town Murder is sponsored by BetterHelp every January. It's a, it's a whole new slate clean. You bet it is. Blank pages all the way around.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Absolutely.

[James Petregallo]

Maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here. A little plot twist in your story that you've been wanting to revise a little bit. But life isn't about resolutions that are going to fade away by February, by the, you know, right after New Year's. Think of therapy as an editorial partner. There you go. That's a good way to put it. Helping you write new chapters and creating the story of your life that you should have, that you want to have. That's what it's all about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The one you deserve.

[James Petregallo]

The one you deserve. And we can't say enough about therapy. We all have problems and we all have issues and none of us are.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The right answer all the time. Sometimes you need a little coaching. Sometimes you need an extra tool in the toolbox to cope and deal with the day.

[James Petregallo]

Write your story with better help. Visit betterhelp.com smalltown murder today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp h E-L-P.com small town murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

Hey everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about a big time hero that we've just encountered. I'm a bread enthusiast and with herobred you can focus on these health goals that you have that we all have. Trying to get ourselves better and still indulge in the luscious, wonderful, soft mmm, just so good. The fluffy goodness of bread that you love. But guilt free with the hero bread, that's the thing. You like enjoying a nutritious breakfast wrap, avocado toast, grilled cheese, maybe with some soup on a cold rainy day. Maybe a family burger night. Well, their products are delicious and flavorful, and they have ultra low net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and are high in fiber. They're pretty delicious. I really like the Hawaiian rolls. They're good. Yeah, I got the Hawaiian rolls. Yeah, they're so. They're like. They still feel, like, buttery and stuff, but.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Because when you're.

[Jimmy Whisman]

When you're on some sort of a diet or any kind of keeping an eye on things, those are the first. One of the first things to go.

[James Petregallo]

That's. Oh, God. Yeah, those are. These are good for. They're not bad at all. And the texture. This is the thing. I'm a nut with bread texture. I don't like different textures of bread. They have a really nice, good bread texture. It's delicious. Herobred is offering 10% off your order. Go to Hero Co and use the code. Small town murder at checkout. That's the code. Small town murder at H E R O dot C. Now back to the show.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Uh.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, okay. So Naomi called him again about 7:30pm to tell him they were leaving the house to go to the dinner party. So, you know, you got a few hours here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He said that Naomi contacted him before they went to the party, so that was then. And that he said he took Guthrie to Princeton to wait for them to return to their home with, you know, with the shotgun and everything. He said that he'd been to the house on several occasions and had no problems finding the house. He said, quote, it was getting a little after 11 then. So I let him out at the gate at the back of the house. He took the gun and he went in the yard. I drove off approximately a block and a half, two blocks down to the next corner to the main drag. He said it was not too long, approximately 20 minutes to 12 or something like that. That I saw Naomi and Dave turn in on College Avenue where they lived. It was not too many minutes that went by that George came back to get in the car. And I had the door locked and he could not get in. Finally, I unlocked the door and he got in. And we drove off like it was nothing going on. It was Saturday night. There was a lot of traffic. And we just got back in the traffic and came back to Roanoke. He said he never Heard the gunshot. There's some details that we'll get into that he left out there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He said he never heard the gunshot. He then said that they went to Roanoke. They went to a bar, and he gave Guthrie $40 gas money. $40 he gave him. Wow. So John Elmer said the next morning, a relative of Naomi's called him and told him, quote, a prowler shot Dave and killed him. And they were in tears. And then Naomi got on the phone, and she was in tears. I asked where David was, and she said they had taken him to Charleston for an autopsy. And he quotes Naomi as saying, quote, you ought to send some flowers and maybe come up. He's. Because he said that they. He had known DB Because DB had loaned him money two or three times.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And his wife, on top of it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Better acknowledge this thing.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck. John Elmer said he didn't go to the funeral, but he went to the house and he sent flowers. So he did, like, the friend thing. He said he had occasional contact with Naomi after the shooting. He said she told him she waited five minutes before she called the police after the shooting and said that she even reached down and felt for a pulse, and she couldn't find any.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the fuck?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, dude, that's cold. She sat there with him for five minutes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. He said, then Naomi delivered $3,000 in cash inside two children's hardback books.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Hologram fucking dude.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Indian in the cupboards.

[James Petregallo]

This is, man. Some golden books. And they fucking. This is ridiculous.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hollowed out hatchet.

[James Petregallo]

She hollowed out an Olivia for this. That's what she did.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

This is fucking wild. And she said that was about two weeks after he said that was about two weeks later. And he said that was for the killing of her husband. So he spills it. Now, there's some other bumbling that goes on here, by the way, that we'll talk about. That happened, which is hilarious, because Guthrie, being a fucking. A drug addict and a mess, could barely pull this off, as we'll talk about. He's a goddamn disaster. It's a wonder he didn't shoot himself. It really is. The fact that this came off is like a miracle. It's wild. So John Elmer is offered a plea deal, and he takes it, really, for saying all that shit. Now, the prosecuting attorney, during his plea arrangement hearing calls him, quote, a dirtbag in the first degree, which is fucking hilarious, objectively. That's hilarious. A dirtbag in the first degree. I would have died if I was in the jury. I would have Went. I would have died laughing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I am changing my Instagram bio.

[James Petregallo]

Dirt bag in the first fucking degree. Everybody should. That's great.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's amazing.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's awesome. First degree dirtbag. They said his meticulously detailed sworn deposition, you know, throws everybody under the bus.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So they said that he embraced the role of a jilted SAP who'd been cynically manipulated all along. Because that's what he says. I was just some poor guy and she was using me for years for this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You don't understand. She sucks it so great.

[James Petregallo]

She's my secretary.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But she's my secretary. Shit.

[James Petregallo]

My secretary. The plea bargain deal reduces John Elmer's accessory to murder charge to voluntary manslaughter, which is nowhere near accessory to murder, by the way. And the how the lineup of felons. Wow. That's insane. He portrayed himself as a victim who'd been beguiled to act on Naomi's behalf. As a. He's basically. The lust made me do this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And the judge. Beguiled Siren. Yeah, so. And the judge actually is like, been there, buddy. Like, I swear to God, this judge, you know, it's not a female judge. Because he's like. The judge totally buys everything he fucking says. Like, man, I get it. A fine ass woman make you do crazy things. Oh, boy. I tell you what. Lots of. I got a story for you. I'll wait till after the hearing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm gonna come and meet you Ballast.

[James Petregallo]

Before you take him off to jail Bring him to my chambers. We're gonna have a chit chat. Cause we got a lot in common. Let me just say that right now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I got a story for you, bub.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. He said he's only human. That's what he said. That's what John Elmer said. I'm only human. This is what he said. They asked him, what do you got to say for yourself? He said, quote, she used her body. I was under, I guess, her spell. She just came onto me with her body and her promises.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I ran this pirate ship aground because of that siren.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, my God. This is wild.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

She used her body. When asked by the prosecution if his regular meetings with Naomi usually resulted in sex, they said that his response. His response conveyed more nostalgia than remorse. He sat there and he's like, oh, let me tell you about this one time, boy, she got some lingerie and came out of the bathroom all sexy and popped everything in there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I didn't know it was physically possible.

[James Petregallo]

It was wild. I had to. We needed a mop. Afterwards. I had to go down to the office and talk about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I could have filled a 2 liter bottle.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. So they said. He said, yeah. Oh, most definitely. He said it was. You know, obviously he was, like, thinking, oh, man. Taking deep breaths. So he also says that Naomi was the mastermind of the murder plot against her husband. And it was Naomi who wanted him dead and said that the middleman who claimed he'd been, you know, I'm the middleman. I've been emotionally manipulated. I believed that she would eventually marry me, and, you know, I was just doing what she wanted. She said it was her that prompted me to research chemical agents that might induce David Cloud to have a heart attack, which was one of the plot that was abandoned. He said it was Naomi who settled on the ruse of an armed robbery gone wrong. And Naomi who told him she waited five minutes before calling the cops so she could check the pulse. It was also Naomi that suggested that John, who'd known DB well enough to borrow money from him, send flowers and show condolences, it was all her idea. It was also Naomi that provided him with $3,000 cash payment for Guthrie. And by the way, he didn't even give him the whole 3,000. What, he fucking pocketed 500 bucks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He kept a subcontractor charge. Good.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And Naomi thought the whole 3,000 was going to Guthrie. And Guthrie always said he was. Thought he was getting 2,500, so that's pretty fucking special.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So he said. All I did was purchase the ammunition, get the gun, load it for him, give it to him and drive him there, which is pretty much everything. This guy just pulled the trigger. You did everything else? Like, everything. Even the planning. He said he sent Guthrie out to deactivate the home's outdoor floodlights and locate a set of keys. And listen to this. Corporal's not a. Not a moron, either. This guy, he said that Guthrie couldn't manage to deactivate one of the floodlights. Couldn't get them all off, so. And he said he didn't want to go inside the house because there was dogs barking inside. And he's afraid of dogs. So afraid of him, he's like, jesus fucking Christ, man. Why did I pick the wrong guy? Corpus Gotta be saying, I picked this jerk. I have to basically pull the trigger for him. Essentially. He can't even unscrew all the floodlights. That's what a dipshit he is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How many murderers does it take to unscrew a light?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. How many Polish murderers does it take to unscrew One light bulb, no. So Guthrie then returned to the vehicle, saying, I didn't get the floodlights out. And he's like, well, you needed to. That's the point. So Corporus said, take my cane and go smash it. My cane. The guy's got a cane. He's got a cane. So this is a ridiculous comedy of errors right here. I mean, imagine this. This is a silly movie is what this is where you get back. I couldn't smash them all, you fucking idiot. Take my cane. Then. So he goes on. He said, corporal, after he did, he goes in there and he smashes the cane. Smashes the last floodlight with the cane. Then Corporo said, well, let's get the fuck out of here now. In case somebody heard that shit. Glass breaking and everything else. And calls the cops.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just exploded a floodlight.

[James Petregallo]

So they drove around the neighborhood until it was evident that no cops were coming. That's why they kept being seen driving around the neighborhood, because they were just like. They just drove around for like, a half hour just to see what happened.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're chasing shit. They're waiting for the cops to arrive for the noise they just made.

[James Petregallo]

That's right. So then they returned to the scene, and he said, go on, now. Go on, get. Do your thing. So, wow. It's wild, by the way, that after this guy, okay, If I have hired a murderer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And it's all on me. I'm responsible for the murder, okay? I got to get him ready. I got to tell him the plan. Naomi doesn't know Guthrie, so I got to tell him the plan. I got to get him a gun. I got to get him shells. I got to. All this shit, and this guy can't execute part fucking A of the plan. Unscrew the floodlights. I'm calling this off with this guy. I'm going. Never mind. This is crazy. Fuck this shit. Give him 500 bucks and send him on his way. This is ridiculous. What are you doing? Yeah, like, honestly. But he said, nope. Let's plow through this here. Unbelievable. He said that he cruised Princeton on a circuitous route that would bring him back to the spot where he'd pick him up to flee the scene. He said he never heard the shot. He said when Guthrie got in the car. Guthrie. He said, is it done? And Guthrie said, he'll never drink another drink.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay?

[James Petregallo]

Is what he told him. So two weeks later, he gave the guy 2,500 bucks, pocketed 500 for himself. He said that neither Guthrie nor Naomi was. Knew that he was Pocketing the money on his own. So, yeah, that's how it goes. That's he. He's. That's what he has to say here. His sworn statement here. They said that probably the thing that they came up with too, is they were like, if this is true. Naomi was probably genuinely taken aback by the fact that this happened way before she thought it was going to happen. She didn't think she'd have brain on her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She was shocked.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, she didn't think. She thought they'd go in the house, she'd go over here, he'd go over there, get shot, and that would be that. But instead she said it was. I guess he said that she must have been surprised because the plan, as far as she knew, was separate him. He'd be upstairs waiting for him. So as long as she stayed out of upstairs, she'd be fine. Interesting. And they said, so you planned on marrying Naomi? And he said, yes, I did. So the judge then questions him a bit, too. And, you know, he said, your statements indicate that you helped plan, cooperated, schemed, counseled, aided, abetted, all of this shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

These fucking people in the offense. Do you understand that? And he said, yes, sir, I do. They said he was dressed. He was even dressed in a suit, which is nice. You wouldn't expect that from these guys, I don't think. I wouldn't expect either of these people to have suits on. I expect them to come.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Access. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

I expect them to come in, like, fucking torn up overalls or something like. Yeah, this is ridiculous. No shirt on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah, the shirt's part of these pants.

[James Petregallo]

Well, yeah, this counts as a shirt. Covers my nipples, don't it?

[Jimmy Whisman]

As long as they.

[James Petregallo]

So the judge continued, it is not clear from the indictment whether you were present, but I take it from the wording of the indictment that you were not. And he says that he, quote, in the same town, in town, but not at the exact scene is what he says. So the judge pointed out that according to state law, a person who helps plan, scheme, counsel, all this shit, the crime is as guilty as if the plans go forward, as if he were present. Yeah, there you go. When pro. For the facts which made him guilty, told the judge, I aided her. I provided transportation for him to West Virginia. The defense attorney elaborated on the night of the shooting that he provided the transportation. And they said, did you know and understand that George Guthrie was there for the purpose of murdering David McLeod? He's like, fuck, yes, I did. The pussy was on my mind. Of course I did. I Was thinking of other things. So the sentencing. Because he pleads guilty to voluntary manslaughter, he is sentenced to. This is. He got the gun, drove him there, planned it, Basically did everything. You, sir, may fuck off. One to five years in prison.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm late, sir.

[James Petregallo]

He's released after eight months.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get out of here.

[James Petregallo]

Eight months in prison he does for murdering, basically. Essentially this is a. He fucking planned, executed and did everything but pull the trigger.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's why he's so high around here. They don't punish anybody for it.

[James Petregallo]

That's wild. Eight months. Are you kidding me?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holy shit. That judge really adds.

[James Petregallo]

I get that. They. That's what I mean. The judge was like, I hear you, buddy. Like, I guess they really want to nail her and they really want to nail the trigger man. I suppose. So they're giving this guy a huge break.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Unbelievable deal.

[James Petregallo]

Like, rather than saying, okay, rather than first degree murder, second degree murder, 20 years, something like that, they go all the way. Voluntary manslaughter. You'll be out by Christmas. That's crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Conspiracy. You were part of this 100%. How do you not get at least 30% of their sentence?

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean. So then the state makes an agreement with Guthrie as well, a plea agreement here. But the trial court, the judge refuses to accept the plea agreement that he makes with the prosecutor. So this guy thought he was good. And the judge is like, fuck no, he's the shooter. Hell no. Nope. And the judge has the right to not accept plea agreements. That's part of it. So he's going to trial Guthrie, and he is going to be presenting evidence of insanity. That's what he's going to present.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's his swing now.

[James Petregallo]

It's insanity. And they should have thrown out the confession. Those are his two big deals here. Now, the insanity defense. This is one of the jurors, by the way. This is the vaudeur of the juror in the beginning of what the fuck they think about insanity. Because when insanity's on the table, you got to ask a whole bunch of separate set of questions. Like when the death penalty. He's going. So they said, in general, do you believe that psychiatrists and psychologists can help people?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And the juror says, no. All righty. Do you know any psychiatrists or psychologists? No. I was going to say, he probably said, yeah, my ex wife. But no, they said, you say you don't in general think they can help people. Is that based on prior experience or just a feeling? And he said, it's just General feelings. I'm just ignorant, that's all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He said, I've done my own research.

[James Petregallo]

I'm just an ignorant shit kicker. That's all. That's what he might as well have said. I get inklings from shit I see on TV and then make judgments based not on reality and fact. You know how most do.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You ain't never heard the term psychologist?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's why. That's why.

[Jimmy Whisman]

If you can say it with a sarcastic tone. I don't believe it.

[James Petregallo]

I ain't believing it. I heard it said sarcastic one too many times. So he said, do you think people who work in the mental health profession, such as psychiatrists and psychologists, might be weird or seem to be weird? He said, the answer is. Like I said, I don't know any of them. But from what I've read, that's a stretch. And from what I see on television. There you go. It looks to me like they have got as much problems as the people they talk to. And it is two bothered people. And it is two bothered people getting together and talking over problems. So you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about?

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, you don't understand. Psychology is when you go talk to somebody with your same problems and you all commiserate.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, just talk about it. No, idiot. He saw a movie where there was a psychiatrist and that's what happened. And he said, well, that's what that is. And then moving on, they said, is someone who is emotionally ill considered sick? And he said, yes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. They said, can they help the way they are? The answer is. Well, I believe they could if they really had someone in the family, someone close to them to get them into a routine. I believe in work myself. And I think if you work hard and concentrate and keep your mind off things that bother you and do something else and see if that would help next. Right, everybody. Hey, everybody out there. This is a message from James and Jimmy. You got some mental issues, some problems. You know, you need help. Don't seek help. Just work harder. That'll help you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Step one, make your bed every morning. Step two, have breakfast. What's this fucking routine you're talking about?

[James Petregallo]

He means if. Basically, if you work so hard that you don't. You're too tired to think about shit and that you're so depressed. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

If you don't have time to have problems, you ain't got problems.

[James Petregallo]

You got no problems. Wow. Okay. This guy's great. That's why I want on my jury. How about you?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, they better just Send this fucker home. Right.

[James Petregallo]

He's really open to different ideas and, you know, open to a lot here. He said, what's your opinion of someone claiming to be disabled on psychological or psychiatric grounds? I guess first of all, I ought to ask you, do you think someone can be disabled for psychiatric or psychological reasons? He said, not really.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, okay. You've never met anyone. Paranoid schizophrenia or anything, apparently. They said, is it possible to experience psychological pain? And he said, I suppose so.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How fucking perfect is it in this person's life?

[James Petregallo]

Apparently everything's fine with this guy. He just saw a movie once and psychiatrists are assholes. They said, we thank you. After the jury left, this juror left the court's chambers. Guthrie's counsel moved to strike her because she indicated she had a prejudice. Prejudice against psychiatrists. And that could not. That they couldn't. She couldn't accept any of their opinions. And the court said, no, she's good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

But she's on the trial. She's on the jury.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God. That person can't.

[James Petregallo]

Yep, they're on the jury insanity plea.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You can't have that woman.

[James Petregallo]

Can't have a woman who doesn't believe that insanity exists.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

At all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And that there are people that are. That can help treat that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it would be one thing if she said, yeah, I think a lot of people use that as an excuse criminally or something. That's fine. I'm with you. Yeah, you know, we can talk about that. But to say there's nobody who's not fine is fucking insane.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So for his insanity evidence here, he presents lay and expert testimony. So just friends of his that say, yeah, he's a fucking cuckoo. And then also experts here who have degrees that say it too. They say he had. Not only does he have organic brain damage anyway.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Smashed his head or something. But a long history of drug and alcohol abuse, blackouts from substance abuse, and had drug abuse, mental disorders. They found he is in the within the normal range of intelligence, which is shocking, honestly. His experts were suggested, subjected to cross examination. And, you know, they tried to equivocate the shit to a jury. Basically here the state called one psychiatrist who answered two questions about Guthrie's mental state with simple yes and no answers. He did not explain why or how he reached his conclusions that Guthrie had been capable of understanding and waiving his rights. And that Guthrie was not suffering from a defect or disease that made him incapable of understanding what he was doing or conforming his behavior to the Law. They didn't ask him to explain or expand on it. They just said yes or no questions. Yeah. Is he capable of understanding or waiving his rights? Yes. Is he suffering from a disease that makes him incapable of understanding? No. That was it. Thank you. No further questions.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Thanks for being here, Doc.

[James Petregallo]

Thanks a lot, Doc. And then there's a woman just with her arms crossed, shaking her head in the jury. Liar. Fucking liar. What are your problems? Wow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He just needs to work harder.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Now John Elmer's got to earn his eight months in jail here by testifying. And he testifies during the three day trial that he helped plot the killing in hopes of marrying Naomi. Exactly what we said. Guthrie claimed that he rejected John Elmer's attempt to hire him as a hitman and instead was framed. He said, this guy came to me, his lawyer said, yeah, John Elmer came to him and he refused. He said, I'm not doing that. But then once they did it without him, they said, well, let's just say it was him. Since we talked about him anyway. Yep, we got that here. He goes on, they ask. They asked John Elmer about his relationship with Naomi. And, you know, he said it started before the marriage and continued until just a few months after her husband's death. He said, quote, I guess I was just. I was under. I guess you'd call it her spell. She just came on to me with her body. And he loves saying that. He said that Both trials. Then he said, with her body and her promises. Then he said I was like a spider in a web. She was the spider and I was in the web and I couldn't get out. I'm sorry this happened. I don't know if it means anything to anybody, but I'm sorry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm just a little butterfly.

[James Petregallo]

I'm just a little, tiny, little aphid just stuck up in here. She wraps her beautiful smooth silk around me. My dick gets hard and I can't help anything that happens.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm just a little silk worm trying.

[James Petregallo]

To silkworm just a little, little old silkworm here. Now the verdict comes in and they find Guthrie guilty of first degree murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Okay, sentencing, here we go. This is crazy. You, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison. But. There's a big but with the eligibility of for parole. Do you know how long until he's eligible for parole?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God. 50 years.

[James Petregallo]

10 years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, wow.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. Wow. First degree murder could be out in 10.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I am in West Virginia. I'm surprised they didn't say, you, sir, may fuck off to A wood chipper.

[James Petregallo]

Throw you down a coal mine. Throw you down an abandoned mine shaft or something.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Throw you into a wood chipper that shoots your viscera into an abandoned mine ship.

[James Petregallo]

And then we're going to have one of our shit local bands play Underneath the Reign of Viscera. And while it's happening, we're all going to dance to its reigning men. That's what's going to happen.

[Jimmy Whisman]

While the juror that doesn't like psychotherapy pisses the remainder of you off the walls.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ. So, yeah, that is 10 years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. So now the two guys are taken care of. We got him and we got this one. Now, the point of that is to now put her up for trial.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right? She's gonna be in so much trouble.

[James Petregallo]

Okay, so remember, though, she's being held. She was out on that $50,000 bond she put property up for and moved to Huntington to sell cars at a Chevy dealership.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Like, let me show you the new. Let me show you the new Citation. It's wonderful. I'm trying to think of what cars were out in 82, 80.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That was citation for cars.

[James Petregallo]

No, it was the worst time we've ever had for cars. Even Corvettes sucked.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Come see the Beretta.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, the Beretta was later, I think. I'm going Citation, man.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know what. What would have been out in 1980 for Chevy's cars.

[James Petregallo]

I think it's a site citation. Monte Carlo, I think probably was out. There have been a bunch of them. She was slinging them, though. Yeah. So during this here. So she is being called. Her case is being called here. It's 9:43am and the state calls the state, or they call the state of West Virginia against Mary Naomi Cloud. The state said the state is ready. But then they approached the bench saying the defendant's not here. No, she's not here right now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They said the defendant showing the worst Camaro ever.

[James Petregallo]

She's busy showing a fucking 130 horsepower fucking Z 28 right now. That's exactly what she's busy doing. So they said that the defendant hasn't appeared yet. The judge says the trial date. I guess the defense is asking for a continuance. And the judge says the trial date was set six weeks ago. And he said, let's do the usual procedure when a defendant fails to report for trial. And the kirk. The clerk called Naomi's name three times saying, Mary Naomi Cloud report to court. When she did not appear, the bailiff is ordered to search the courthouse for Her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

And he was out of the courtroom for several minutes before he returned and announced, quote, she is not in the courthouse.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We knew that.

[James Petregallo]

We knew that. Thank you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Bench warrant.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, so, yeah, well, that's the thing that's going on at that point. The judge orders a bond, considers the bond forfeited, and it tells the state to issue a bench warrant for arrest of her immediately. Yeah. This is of 1982. And he said a warrant will be issued. And. Yeah. There were unconfirmed rumors circulating around the courtroom that Naomi had written her parents a note or a letter. However, the contents of that was never revealed to the media or it's not in the court records either. But there was a big, big kerfuffle going on around there. Saying that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Does that mean they now own the property she put up?

[James Petregallo]

Well, let's talk about it. No, that would be. Yeah, she forfeited the property, but she's a little slicker than that, as we'll find out. A spokesman for the Huntington Police Department's Detectives Bureau told the newspaper that he was contacted last week by her friend Bernie Stanley. The guy she's with.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Her. Stanley's employer. Concerning a missing car. But he said no warrant had been obtained by the company, and the officer indicated that Stanley had been an employee there for about six years. Now she's gone. They go to her house. They can't find her. No one knows where the fuck she is. She's. She disappeared. So did Bernie. He's gone, too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, Bernie.

[James Petregallo]

They are ghost like, the fuck out, so.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they put wanted posters up with a $5,000 reward. I mean, she's like Billy the Kid now. Yeah. So that's fucking wild.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Apparently, actual fugitive.

[James Petregallo]

She. Actual fugitive. Wait till you hear her nickname. It's great. All the newspapers use it. It's fantastic. She basically rounded up all her liquid assets and took the fuck off. Wow. With a younger. In the newspaper, what's described as a younger, handsome male companion. Bernie D. Stanley. So the prosecution believed that she probably took off well in advance of her court date, but they couldn't do anything about it because the court will do nothing until she's officially a no show. They're not gonna say, oh, well, we can't arrest her for. We think she might not show up if you let her out on Bailey.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Six weeks. Bad start.

[James Petregallo]

That's possibly, yeah. They said she'd never spent a minute in jail yet for this, by the way.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She got processed and sent home.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. She didn't even forfeit the Property bond she had to put up to secure her bail. And we'll find out why here. Wow. They said. Yeah. The prosecutor said that this was anticipated, but they couldn't take any official action until the judge opened the court at the assigned time and it was officially recorded that she hadn't shown up. So apparently what she did is she sold the building. She put up for bail before she left town.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's got the money for it already.

[James Petregallo]

She's got the money, and they don't have the property because it belongs to someone else now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So they're just fucked. Holding their dicks in their hand, going, maybe we should have made it higher.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Maybe we should have put a lien on that property before we.

[James Petregallo]

Something like that. So the judge orders the forfeit of the $50,000 bond, issues the bench warrant, does all that. They said there's no indication of where she might have gone from any of the prosecution or defense witnesses at the courthouse, but all persons involved in the case appeared to assume that she probably fled the state and possibly the country. Oh, my God, she's got some money. It's 1980, 82 at this point. It's not like, you know, you can go anywhere you want. So they said. The prosecutoring attorney told the newspaper immediately following the brief session of court that he and his staff will pursue this case, quote, to the limit and make every effort possible to have Cloud caught and returned to Fayette county to stand trial for the murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We will spend every tax dollar.

[James Petregallo]

Every tax dollar. We will put aside the fancy oldie new railroad station that'll make y'all happy. We'll put it aside for 25 years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Spend all this money murdering. Bad woman.

[James Petregallo]

Bad. So all over the country now. There is articles everywhere. She's on the front page all over the place, really. Whole country say, known as, quote, the Fugitive Temptress.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Which is absolutely the name of this episode.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

The Fugitive Temptress, which is fucking hilarious. They describe her as five, one and a half, 105 pounds. And they put her Social Security number in the newspaper.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

428-828-259. It's in the newspaper. Anybody can find it. I'll say it, too. Fuck it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You can't do that nowadays. Can.

[James Petregallo]

No. Jesus Christ. You kidding me? A thousand people would steal our identity in 12 seconds.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, they. They pretty much called her Murder Whore, so why not?

[James Petregallo]

Pretty much? Yeah. Temptress. Fugitive. Hey, murder skank, come over here a minute. We call her the slut of death. Now, that's no Good. What about Fugitive Temptress? Yeah, that's better, right? Slut of Death is crazy to put on a head like. Can't put that. That's offensive. Jesus.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's too amazing.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. So there's no warrants pending for her boyfriend. Somehow I thought. I would think aiding and abetting a fugitive, something like that. Nope.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. And it seems like if you catch him, you'll probably catch her.

[James Petregallo]

That's the thing. He's described as a white male, 6:2 tall, weighing about 240 pounds with dark hair, about 40 years old.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Probably dumb.

[James Petregallo]

Probably dumb as fuck. Wet dick. That's for sure.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A bright pink raw dick.

[James Petregallo]

Raw dick that we know about. So at the same time she sold that building, she also sold her downtown cosmetics business to her sister Sylvia as well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

No one. Yeah. The state didn't know she was doing this, but she was liquidating and getting as much cash as she could fucking gather in. July 18, 1981, she sold the building. She put up for her bond to her brother and his wife, aided by her lawyer, John Frazier, who, since that happened, had been appointed a circuit judge. Now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my.

[James Petregallo]

Frazier was accused in a lawsuit filed by the family of Cloud of helping Cloud sell the bill, helping Naomi sell the building when both knew it was being used for bond. Frazier dropped out of the Cloud case after being appointed a judge and declined to discuss his former client. I don't want to talk about the shady shit I did before. Now I'm upstanding.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm not doing that anymore.

[James Petregallo]

Family members and other Princeton residents who knew Naomi also refused to discuss the case. They said that Dave's will, DB's will is still in probate. And they said a lot will depend on the outcome of the trial because if she's found not guilty, she's going to get a whole shitload more than she would have if she isn't. Wow. She has apparently has a really high powered lawyer after that. Haddad is his last name. Nationally known lawyer from Louisville. He told the newspaper that he was surprised at Naomi's decision to attempt to evade trial. Quote, because she's been very strong throughout the time we've been working on all of this. She's full of shit, too. They said, are you gonna keep working with her now since she took off and made you look like kind of an asshole? You know when you beg on your face, man? Yeah. When you say you beg for bail for a client, you're kind of vouching for them. You know what I mean? I trust them. And he Said, oh, yes, I won't bail out on her. Now, why do they do that? I won't bail out on her. She got bailed out. Why do they always call themselves people? Everyone does it. So why do we do it?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is it. Is it. It's got to be psychological, right? That. Oh, it has to be in your mind already. So you're just gonna say it?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, like I said, it's like, when we go on, you know, something that we, like, we're on, like, live TV on the news in Chicago that time, and it's 6am and neither of us have slept, and they're like, don't curse. And we're like, oh, shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, God damn it. That's all I wanted to do.

[James Petregallo]

I am gonna go, how you doing, James? Fucking Petragallo here. Good to meet you. Like, oh, shit. I can't stand.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fuck, it's early.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck, it's early, right? You fuckers look good this morning. How's it going? I just can't help it at that point.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fucking time. Did you guys wake up? This is early.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ. Balls, this is early.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'd suck a cock to go back to sleep.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck, right? Wouldn't you? Come on back in the studio, huh? So Stephen Cloud, who is DB's son, said that he suspected his stepmother wouldn't stick around for her trial, but he remains hopeful that she'll be recaptured. I would think, eventually, yeah. He said, I certainly hope so. But I don't know. I think she'll be. I think she'll end up paying in the end. And the prosecutor gives a. This is a really. This will make you feel better if you're a family member and you really want her caught. He says that he's pretty confident that Naomi will be found. Quote, one of these days, she's got.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To run out of money somehow.

[James Petregallo]

Dude, look harder. What are you talking about? One of these days, they said the task of tracking down Naomi, just hard to do. They can't find her. They said where. And there would be newspapers all over the place. They would just have Where's Naomi? Articles every once in a while. Where is she? What's going on here? And that also her, db, Cloud's kids, basically. They call the cops in the prosecutor's office every week.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Where's Naomi? You find her yet? What's going on? You got any leads? Like, every fucking week. Which is what you kind of. Seems like you have to do this. Apparently, somehow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I can't believe it.

[James Petregallo]

So they said they failed to find her despite pursuing clues in many states and countries. The pursuing clues everywhere. So the authorities say in an effort to defraud the state, she sold the property that she claimed was her bond. The prosecutor announced that his office investigation had revealed that an apartment house in Princeton was the property used for the bond. And In September of 1980, she sold that to her brother, sold her business to her sister. And he said that he would take legal action to have the property turned back over to the state to meet the bond requirements. In the civil action, they said the deed between Mary Naomi Cloud and E. Howard Hill and Betty Hill be set aside on the grounds the property was subjected to the bond and that the couple had condition reason to believe that the property was subject to bond. It's hard though, because they just go, we didn't know. It's all through already. Like I don't know how you. That's done. It's a done deal. They said that they're asking if the property be forfeited to the state of West Virginia and sold at public auction along with that shitty house from the real estate report. So 1984, Guthrie has an appeal. She's still gone, by the way. Two years later.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh my God.

[James Petregallo]

84. He maintains his confession should have been suppressed because he was not promptly presented to a magistrate.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And I was hammered.

[James Petregallo]

Hammered. But instead was taken to police headquarters and interrogated. He was arrested at 9:25pm and taken before a magistrate at 11:45. So 220. That's how long that is. His thesis is that the officers had probable cause to arrest the warrant founded on the indictment. So that the pre presentment interrogation was unnecessary. And the only reason he was not presented was to get him to confess. That's what. That's what he's saying in these filings. Now Virginia's arrest and presentment statute and also is similar to West Virginia. Virginia's. Provide that the persons arrested under Warren shall be taken before a magistrate, quote without unnecessary delay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Which sounds like take you right there. Unless the car breaks down.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Unnecessary delay doesn't mean we feel like interrogating him. Necessary to me. Means the car broke down. There's a blizzard outside.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Aliens are invading. Someone's getting their dick sucked by Naomi. Something like that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's a parade. Whatever.

[James Petregallo]

Whatever it is. Guthrie could have easily been presented to a magistrate. This is his filing. Advised of his rights, informed of the charges and his state of intoxication could have been assessed at that point. Now the state says that we are not to apply our prompt presentment Statue extraterritorially. And Virginia, applying her own law, would admit this confession. Okay, so now you're talking about which state's law are we going to go with? They said there is authority for the government's position. But they said the court says they disagree. This is not a question of extra. Extraterritorial application of our prompt presentment rule. We must decide whether a confession elicited under the facts in this case is admissible in our criminal courts. Guthrie's not being tried in Virginia for his crime. He's being tried here. So he also says the insanity thing. He said he offered evidence he was insane. He. He argues that the state failed to rebut the evidence sufficiently because all they got was a yes and a no from their psychologist. And the jury said, good enough for me. So they said that there exists in the trial of an accused a presumption of sanity. However, should the accused offer evidence that he was insane, the presumption of sanity disappears. And the burden is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was sane at the time of the offense. A lot of states that's the opposite. Like Florida, it's your burden to show you're crazy, not theirs to show. You're saying that's a totally different thing. Which is a big difference, actually.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, that's a lot of burden.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's a lot. So when the issue. That's why no one ever gets off on it. When the issue of sanity has been fully developed at trial and it conclusively appears that the defendant was not criminally responsible at the time the crime was committed, the trial judge may, in instance and instances must direct the verdict in favor of the defendant. Meaning before it even goes to the. They must throw that jury, the jury verdict out and do a directed. A directed verdict because they didn't take the facts into consideration. So they said that in this case, the conflicting evidence adduced at trial Forecloses the possibility that the evidence was conclusive of insanity. Even if the appellate alleges that a psychiatric expert experts were superior to the state psychiatric expert. Defendant's position is that he produced sufficient evidence of insanity to repeal the original presumption of sanity. And that the state submission of two curt, unexplained answers by its expert was equal to no rebuttal at all. And therefore, as a matter of law, he must be found insane. They also question whether the trial court erred in refusing to strike that juror who indicated that she didn't think that people were mental illness was Real.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That wacky bitch.

[James Petregallo]

That. Yeah. Fucking wild. Now, the decision here. West Virginia police, they said, worked hard to find work. And the Virginia police worked together to arrest Guthrie. Virginia's only involvement was her fugitive warrant. Predicated on a crime committed in West Virginia. At all times. During the arrest, questioning, processing and presentment the Virginia officers. Or accompanied by our West Virginia authorities. Finally, the evidence is clear that Guthrie's delay was prompted by our officers. And untimely interrogation was conducted by them. Okay, now, intoxication. Was Guthrie unable to give a voluntary confession? The trial court found that he had ingested speed and beer. But that he was capable of waiving his rights. The troopers all testified he appeared normal. While his family and friends said the opposite. The trial judge heard the testimony and was in the best position to evaluate the credibility of the witnesses. So that's basically, they said, our hands are off of this one. That the insanity the judge had, the, you know, are the. That thing. The. The intoxication. The judge would know best. So that's not on us. The juror, they said, we cannot conclude that this juror was unable to render a verdict solely on the evidence and the court's charge. Therefore, the trial court did not err by refusing to strike her for cause, which is crazy. Then they say, the confession. West Virginia officers may not avoid our state's rules about prompt presentment of arrestees and admissibility of confessions. When they cross our borders to apprehend a fugitive criminal suspect. The tangential involvement of Virginia police in the arrest process in Guthrie's case did not obviate the requirement that our officers follow our laws. We conclude Guthrie's confession was inadmissible, reversed and remanded.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy. New trial.

[James Petregallo]

New trial. Absolutely. So November 1984, they do a new trial here. And in the opening statements, the prosecutor says, the first degree murder case cries out for justice. It was a contract killing here in this county. For no reason other than gain by Mrs. Cloud, gained by corporation, and gained by Guthrie. It was a senseless murder, brutal killing. Defense says that his client had no part in the killing. And his confession is not admissible here, by the way.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So, yeah, they got to prove that.

[James Petregallo]

He was there, which good luck. They have court proofs, you know, they have John Elmer, but that's uncorroborated.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, he said. He said, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Usually from a co defendant or a co criminal, you have to have corroboration for their shit where it was not. So they said, you know, it's this guy who talked about getting rid of David Cloud in various ways and all this not my guy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

They said Corporate was the one that he should be sitting right here. So the defense attorney says that he intended he contends that his client had no part in the killing and that Corporal is the culprit. He said Naomi Cloud and Corporal had been lovers who schemed to get rid of David Cloud, you know, including ways including poison before the shooting. So they said that Guthrie, whose first degree murder trial ended today, goes pretty quick. He claims that he rejected the offer again and then he's being framed. Same thing as the first time. In closing arguments they said that the prosecutor said that he plea bargained with Corporue because he's the sole link in the events involving the killing. He said I wish I was up here in front of you trying him too, believe me. Yeah scumbag. But gotta do what you gotta do. Have you ever woken up with a funky symptom like a swollen itchy eye and immediately googled it or searched TikTok.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To see what's wrong? We've all gone down that rabbit hole.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

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[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

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[James Petregallo]

So the defense lawyer said there are two guilty people. Naomi and corporate. And George Guthrie is not the third. No, he's the second. Second verdict comes in. He is found guilty of first degree murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Again.

[James Petregallo]

Again with mercy though. Again. Okay. Which leads him to be sentenced to. You, sir, again, may fuck off. Life in prison with eligibility of parole in 10 years. That's with mercy. That's a lot of mercy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's the most mercy I've ever heard of.

[James Petregallo]

Ten years, you shot a guy point blank in the face with a shotgun on purpose for monetary gain. That is like the most clear cut first degree murder. You're going to prison forever. Shit I've ever heard in my life. Cold blooded too. Cold blooded as fuck. That's cold, dude.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dark. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

To sit there. To break a light. Sit. He sat there and waited with plenty of opportunity to go, what am I doing?

[Jimmy Whisman]

The fuck is wrong with me?

[James Petregallo]

Nevermind. Even when they came in, he could have just said nevermind and stayed behind a bush and not alerted them to his presence and taken off. There's so many ways to get out of this body.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Bodywork to do.

[James Petregallo]

Well, you know what? Sometimes you got to fix that citation. It's off on blocks. 1985.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Naomi, still missing. Three years now. It's been since she took off. A $20,000 reward is being offered for information leading to her arrest. This reward is offered by Cloud. Stepchildren. One of them here talks about it and says that, you know, the reward is. You know, they just hope that she's found. They'll give any amount of money they can to get her back. To get her back here to be fucking put away. Which they shouldn't have. To put the reward up. No, I don't think again. Maybe if you had one less fucking fancy replica building of an old railroad station, you could put put up a goddamn fucking reward for murder. Fugitives who have fled your state. Who you go hope we find her someday.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But we like the main street of yesteryear and we'd love to just replicate.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, man. Makes people so much happier. So that's 85, 86 gone. 87.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh my God.

[James Petregallo]

All sorts of rewards. And every once in a while there's articles around. Hey, where's this Naomi lady, you know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just keeps coming, murdering Trollope.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, man. So April 23rd, 1988, Kennewick, Washington state. State.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The other side of the country.

[James Petregallo]

Other side of the country. Near the Oregon border, I believe. As a matter of fact, here, authorities get a tip in West Virginia that she is living in Kennewick, Washington. So a former state trooper travels to Washington with state police Sergeant Charles Blizzard. Just like the blizzard. That's fucking awesome. For the arrest. I will arrest you like a blizzard. You won't even see it. They receive a tip on where Cloud could be found. The information likely. They said if they find her, that's gonna. They should be good for this reward that's been put up. So the investigator said he basically went to Kennewick and flashed pictures from wanted posters to people all around the town. And they said, oh, yeah, we know that lady. That's her. We know her. So they staked her house out. They arrived about 7:30pm and no one was home. So they said that Bernie, Stanley arrived at about 8pm oh, she's still with him by himself. He walks in the house. So they wait. They're like, fuck, did she. Maybe they broke up. Maybe. We don't know what happened. Then about 11:20pm Here comes Naomi strutting on up the driveway. She goes in the house. They wait. For some reason, they don't arrest her outside. They wait till she goes in the house and I guess to coordinate a raid or whatever. But they don't even raid. They just knock on the front door and Bernie is talking to the cops. While Bernie's talking to the cops, she tries to run out the back door and take off.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Where the fuck's she gonna go?

[James Petregallo]

And walked right into police. Better than a guy with a shotgun. So true. Yeah, but they gave her a better chance. She gave her husband.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Running like somebody after Chris Hansen says, have a seat. Yeah, where do you think you're going, lady? There's cops out there.

[James Petregallo]

I picture, like, Lorraine Bracco and Goodfellows, like, cutting up bags of coke and dumping them in the toilet like shit like that. Freaking out. So the police guy who arrested her said she looked totally shocked. She was very upset. She didn't say a word to me after we arrested her. Just gave me the dirty look she used to give me before.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just giving dirty looks.

[James Petregallo]

This shit's beneath me looks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. You can fuck your way out of this one, lady.

[James Petregallo]

I don't give a shit about your tits right now. So they said that Stanley and Cloud apparently have been living in this home since July of the previous year of 87. So they've been here for a while. Cloud was working and had a Washington's driver's license under the name Carol Donna Johnson. Good God, by the way, you know what everyone called her?

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

Donna. She went by her middle name still, even on her driver's little hint. See the little things people give away? She didn't need to do that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No, she could have been Donna Carroll.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean. She made her fucking name up. It doesn't matter. They said the cops said it was obvious. She tried to disguise her appearance in the license picture. But when we arrested her, she looked the same. Anybody would have known her. Same hair, same makeup. The only thing is, she gained a little weight in the hips. That is hilarious. She still puts makeup on from eight fucking years ago. And she's ass is a little fat. We'll just say right now. A little outside the realm of what.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You know, got a little doughy in the hind end. You know what I'm saying?

[James Petregallo]

Wow. But she looked just like she did last time I saw her. During the six years on the run. Where she been? What's she been doing? It's shocking. She was alleged to have had a number of aliases on credit cards and other documents belonging to her. I don't know how she does all this, but back then it was probably a lot easier.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, you just write a name in.

[James Petregallo]

You could also, like fake documents.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Your license was paper, for Christ's sake.

[James Petregallo]

No shit. Yeah, they said that she went by Bonnie Naomi Bright. Mary Naomi Bright, Bonnie Naomi Hancock, Mary Naomi Hill. Carol Donna Johnson. Mary Naomi Lewis, which is her fucking maiden name, which is pretty stupid. Mary Hill Stanley, which is her boyfriend's last name. And Carol Donna Marie. Marie is a last name. Yeah, okay, okay. In one of her fucking lives, one of her fucking identities. She worked as a sales rep for a water softening firm. And her sales in the company ranked third nationally.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

She was living her life. Dude, they weren't hiding. So. I mean, they weren't hiding, like, you know. Oh, God. Looking out the window. She's fucking selling things to people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fixing your hard water, for Christ's sake.

[James Petregallo]

This is the third best person of it in the whole nation. So during her extradition, it became evident she'd become quite popular in her new area. Because when she. When they go to extradite her and get her on the plane, 20 to 30 people show up to see her off. The whole town shows up because they're so sad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Enjoy the flight.

[James Petregallo]

Holy shit. Yeah. They said that she was. They acted like she was a celebrity and it wasn't like. Oh, to gawk at her. They had signs showing support for her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

They had signs declaring their love and support for Donna. The cop said. He said they act. You guys, she didn't even fucking exist. He said they acted like she was a movie star or something. They said there was 11 different people carrying signs and expressing their fucking support. They waved and hugged goodbye to her and one said, we believe. Or the sign said, we believe in you. We love you. Donna, said one of the signs. Another just said, be positive, which is a really okay. Being extradited for murder. There's not a lot of positive going on here. Be positive here. Even with everything here. They said that she seemed relaxed as she waited with her boyfriend Bernie, who's gonna board the plane with her and go back even though he's not under arrest at all. Cloud was dressed in a yellow sweater and slack. She was accompanied by two law officers from West Virginia, but was not handcuffed. They didn't even handcuff her.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What is going on?

[James Petregallo]

They didn't. They let her hang out at the airport, talk to her friends, hug. People do. She's in custody for murder. For fucking murder. And they let her get on the plane with her boyfriend. Sit. They put her in first class, too. What the fuck is happening? Make sure to get her the headphones so the movie isn't a waste yet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

James, this is crazy.

[James Petregallo]

No, it's a United Express flight.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, really?

[James Petregallo]

A United Express flight to Seattle where they fucking get a flight? Yeah. To probably some other city to where they have to drive 12 hours to fucking West Virginia. So non handcuffed. Wow. One of her friends, Cindy Fenwick of Idaho, who identified herself as a friend of Donna, Naomi, whoever the fuck, said, quote, she's innocent. This is totally.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is. But.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. This is totally out of character for her. This lady drove two hours to say goodbye at the airport. This lady said, she's that good of a friend to me. You don't even know her. She's not even.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's not your friend.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. She's a very nice person. And she was special to everyone she has been in contact with. And this lady said, these people at the airport have only known her a couple months. That's how much she touches people. We've heard how she touches people.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Her disrespectful.

[James Petregallo]

She's the best at it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. She's a good toucher.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. So this lady said she met Naomi through business dealings in Denver, Colorado. But she wouldn't say what type of business she was in. She said that she lived with Cloud and Stanley in Denver for a short time, she said, and they took others in who were having hard times, too. You think, lay low, Lay low. Which is how they get caught. Because there was a tip saying she lived here. She wasn't making friends with everybody. No one would have spent any tips in. So they said that. Wow. That's fucking wild. Yeah, they said. Some people here declined to comment. One man at the airport went so far as to hide an insignia on his cap with tape and paper. So, no, I guess it's probably where he worked or something. She. Stanley declined to talk to reporters as well, and he's not charged, but he had a seat booked on the same flight with her. They boarded the plane together with one officer in front and one behind. Before she got on the plane, she turned to wave at her friends like, see you next time. Yep. Standing on the airport's outside observation deck with their signs. Once the plane flew off, an unidentified boy said, she's gone. There she goes into the clouds. Oh, man.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's a figment of our imagination. There she goes. Just a damn hero in this town.

[James Petregallo]

He's the hero that caught. Meadows said Bernie wrote on the plane all the way out here on the same flight. He made every change we did and got off the plane when we did in Roanoke. He met some of Naomi's family when we went home with them. Wow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Can they do that still? Just, like, put a fugitive on your plane with you and not tell the whole fucking crew?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. I. Beats the shit out of me. I assume so. You would hope they're handcuffed if they're murderers, but, you know, it seems like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

If they handcuff you to the fucking chair.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna handcuff you to the toilet back here. Stanley's not arrested. The only West Virginia charges, auto theft that were placed against him when. Remember when they disappeared were dropped years ago for lack of anything. So, yeah. They said they couldn't arrest Stanley for harboring a fugitive because the arrest was not in West Virginia. Where. If it was in West Virginia, then he's harboring. If it's somewhere else, that's not harboring. That's wild. They said Meadows said Stanley made no attempt to evade authorities during the arrest. He just talked to her. The cop said, this is kind of a hard trip for her. Yeah. He said him and his fellow officer were trying to make her as comfortable as possible. Why? Why make her uncomfortable? No. Can you get her something to drink? Absolutely not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You don't get to recline your seat this whole trip.

[James Petregallo]

Nope. You sit up straight. We get headphones and watch the movie. You fucking watch it in silence. The whole thing. No peanuts, nothing. Yeah, bullshit. So back in West Virginia here. They get back, back there, and they get off the plane about 11pm on a Saturday night to be met by a shitload of news media and cameras and several members of Naomi's family who hadn't seen her in six years. They said here, um. The cop said there was a lot of tears and it was very emotional. It was really emotional scene when they first saw her. I don't think they had seen her since she left. He said that he anticipated nude news media coverage about this, but he said he didn't expect the mob of cameramen and reporters who greeted them. He said, we went straight through the terminal to the car, but they followed us. And some of the members of the family got upset. There was a problem when one of her family members grabbed at a camera. This is just turn into a shit show. He said they allowed Cloud a few minutes with her elderly mother while at the airport. She is taken directly to a magistrate here to plead not guilty here at her hearing. Stanley, like we said, not arrested, doing nothing. He was using the name of Robert D. Johnson.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, if you're not doing anything illegal, why are you using a different name?

[James Petregallo]

That's the thing. Yeah. She was formally charged, formally charged as a fugitive during a court hearing. They set her bail at bond at $100,000 this time. And she doesn't have that now. They said, they asked that could they. A prosecution asked, can she be held without bond until there's a formal hearing on evidence? And they said that, you know, she fucking fled last time. They said, we found her clear across the country using an assumed name with identification on her, showing she used several aliases. And we have a judgment on her for 50,000 already. So, you know, can we maybe keep her here now? The arrest came as a result of a telephone call to the cop. He said he declined to release the name, but he said that someone I had talked to, knew that I knew and trusted. He said the first call by the informant was made to the prosecuting attorney's office on Monday, April 18, when he was in Roanoke. He said there'd been no indication that any information on Cloud, the Cloud case was forthcoming and that he was surprised because it's been six years. I forgot about it by now. The informant asked the receptionist to speak with Meadows about the Cloud case. And when told he was out of town, the guy said that he would another call would be made later. The informant called back at 9:15am and they told Meadows that he wanted the information it could be revealed about where they were living. That's what the guy said. This is what it's about. And they said the informant was reluctant at first. Meadows said and indicated the information would be revealed in a week. I'll tell you in a week is what the person said. So the cop said we Talked for about 45 minutes or an hour. I didn't want to take a chance of waiting a week. And I finally got the information. He said the informant, it was somebody I know. And it was the first time we had ever gotten a street address in a town. That was the reason why I was convinced it was a good tip, because they had an actual address.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So he and Blizzard were unable to make the trip until Thursday because they had to get airline tickets and the services of federal marshals to accompany them for the arrest. A lot of arranging to do. Yeah, that's a lot. And they said, yeah, the informant will probably get the reward. So they indicated their defense indicates that they want the case resolved as promptly as possible. Let's get it going now. You want to get it done? Where were you six years ago when we wanted to get this done? They said they asked for a date to be set soon because he will need a minimum of 60 days to locate witnesses in the eight year old case. He said a number of key witnesses are from out of state, necessitating sending out of state subpoenas. We had a difficult time finding one witness for the last trial. And he's the owner of the shotgun used. Yeah. They said that the past six years we've spent our time looking for her and have not kept up with the witnesses. It will take the state a minimum of 30 days to crank everything back up again. This has been collecting dust on a shelf. We put this away. Guthrie's already. He's almost on fucking parole already. The other guy, corporation lived three lives since then.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's got kids again.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking A, man. So the detective's reaction here is. This is Meadows said, quote, well, she finally spent a night in jail. I waited a long time for this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He said, you don't know the nights I've laid awake trying to find out where she was. It's been a long time and it's a relief. He said, we're relieved that we. And this. The one of the kids of DB's Kids said, We are relieved they finally found her. We always knew they would because we knew they never gave up on the case. He said that because he kept badgering them. Not badgering, doing the right thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He showed up with coffee and donuts and was like, let's get to work, boys.

[James Petregallo]

Let's fucking do. Let's crank it up, guys. What do we do? Where are we going today? And they're like, huh? What's that now? Good morning. Now, one of her attorneys tells the court that a plea deal would be in her best interest because she fears a first degree murder conviction based solely on Corp. Rue's testimony. So the state agrees to a plea deal with her for second degree murder. Oh, okay. They made the plea to the judge. They said in a low voice. She made the plea barely audible to spectators, including about 10 of her family members and friends and the victim's three children and brother. Her lawyer then asked for probation. She's been on the lam for second degree murder. There's no probation for that. What are you talking about?

[Jimmy Whisman]

She liquidated all assets and ran and.

[James Petregallo]

Blood from a murder charge. This is crazy. So the plea bargaining was arranged by her lawyers. She still had the same lawyer. He didn't back out on her. Christ. He was still six years later. Frank Haddad is his name Louisville. And yeah. She never takes the witness stand to have to tell her part. They do not make her allocate shit. She just has to plead guilty. Sentencing comes around, you, ma'am may fuck off. 5 to 18 years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What is going on in West Virginia?

[James Petregallo]

What the fuck? She was gone for six. She could get out and fight. That's crazy. That's fucking crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is why your crime is so high. There's no time.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. I assume they've changed the sentencing laws. They have to, right? They have to. Her attorneys asked that she be considered for probation after a background reports given to the court. And they were like, I don't fucking think so. DB's daughter said, quote, it's my birthday and this is one of the best birthday presents I've ever had. That's Sharon Cloud. She said that we've waited a long time. It's been a long eight years. Holy shit. They said it was great to finally hear her say guilty.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

There is son, DB's son, who came all the way from Texas at a moment's notice, said, it's been a long time and naturally we would have preferred it. And it Would have been nice to see her get first degree, but it was good to see her finally admit her guilt. She can compose a plea any way she wants to. We all know she's guilty. So, yeah, they said, we're glad it is where it is and has finally come. I don't know whether it's right or not, but who cares? And Sharon, the daughter, said, the worst of it is it will never be over right now. So 1989, assets left from this are being sought now they're trying to get assets. Authorities tried to seize the building she put up and that was gone. They said the $90,000 in insurance money also that's fucking God knows where. So they said they planned to investigate to determine how much money she has. They said, we're going to find out if she has other assets and see if she has money in somebody else's name. We have a judgment against her for $50,000 plus $50 in costs and 10% interest every year since May 1982. But as far as I know, she doesn't have any assets to collect. So there's that. They said she expects the victim's children to pursue them, pursue the money that she received after her husband's death. But she said, I don't think that she has much money now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

3Rd best water softener salesman in the company in the country. Has no money.

[James Petregallo]

Got fucking Ugarts.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Which is surprising, right?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. There's no money in water softeners. Who knew?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. If you're thinking about going into the water softener sales game, evidently there's no money in it. You maybe should not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's the third best. And still be broke.

[James Petregallo]

Still be fucking poor as shit. Apparently.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It'd be a popper.

[James Petregallo]

So, yeah, this is trying to find this. Yeah, she. I believe she. I don't know if this is her or not. I found an obituary for someone who fits her name, but I don't know if it's her or not, though. It's hard to tell. So I'm not positive about that. Yeah, that's a tough one. So who knows? But she's definitely. Everyone's out of prison. No one served too long a time.

[Jimmy Whisman]

For this is the age, right?

[James Petregallo]

Not quite. Yes. But I don't know if it's her, though. It's one of those things. I can't be positive of it to say, yes, she's dead or yes, she's not, or here's her Instagram. I don't know because the one has an Instagram. So I'm not sure.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Now, like we've done before in West Virginia because it's a wild style kind of place here. Wanted to tell that first story and then tell a shorter story at the end here, that is because that was, you know, West Virginia, but that was. I mean, yeah, there was some fuckery and panhandle going on here, but it was also like rich people and all this type of thing. So I feel like some people might go, oh man, I didn't get like a real West Virginia groundhog for breakfast, panhandle kind of thing here. So I got another case for you here that we'll run through real quick here from 1956.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Mingo County.

[Jimmy Whisman]

1956, Mingo County, West Virginia.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Known as Bloody Mingo County. Not good here. This is Delorme. It's in Delorme, West Virginia. DL D E L O R M E Delorme or Delorme, one of the two. Okay. This is in the middle of the afternoon, by the way. We'll cut to this. 1956, October 19, 1956, 4:30 in the afternoon between 4 and 4:30 at what is told what is called a beer tavern, known as Don's Place.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sounds great.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Now the. It's operated by Noah Farrell, who is the stepfather of the wife of the defendant. All right, Stepfather of. So is her his father in law. All right. It's a one story building in which the tavern is operated locally, about 25ft from the edge of a road. It's West Virginia Route number 49 and fronts on that highway. The open space between the highway and the building extends along and beyond the front of the building for several feet in each direction. At the front entrance is a large single door which when open, swings inside the building. And the bottom of the door is several inches above the level of the area between the building and the highway.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So it sits up, it's on a step base, it's elevated. So, you know, floods don't come in when it rains. So we got. It's a big highway, big parking lot type space in the beginning here outside the building and directly in front of the door is one concrete step of normal height above the ground at the top of the step and the top above the ground. And the top of the step is a few inches below the level of the door of the building and the bottom of the door. That's really. Okay, there's a step. It's a step going into a door that has another small step. That's all it is. Like most Houses do have a little step up. Inside the building is a large room where which are several booths on one side, a service counter and a bar on the opposite side of the booths. You know a bar?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, a very small dive shit bar.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. In the middle of fucking Mingo County, West Virginia. It's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It stinks and wow.

[James Petregallo]

So the early afternoon like we said between 4 and 4:30 on this date in 1956. Clyde Fields. Enter Clyde Fields. He is age 40 to 45.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He's set at somewhere around there.

[James Petregallo]

We don't know. We don't keep good records around these parts. And it's 1956 so he was born in you know, 1910 or 1915. So they said he's about 5 10, about 155 pounds. Not a big guy. He limped noticeably because he has an artificial leg which will do that to you here. And not great artificial legs in the mid-50s in West Virginia.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Can't imagine, dude. A friend of mine has one now. They're not that great now.

[James Petregallo]

No, but they're shitload better than this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Can't imagine it's.

[James Petregallo]

This was just wood strapped to your body. That's all that it was.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wood with leather straps.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking brutal, man. Yeah, that's hard for dragging it around with you. Difficult. So now this guy, Clyde Fields is hanging out with Luther Daniels who's a 19 year old man. So 45 and 19 illegal. Shouldn't be hanging out at 4 o'clock. 18 is going to say it's probably. Yeah, it's 18 back then it didn't switch to 21 till the 80s.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. And even, even then he's got.

[James Petregallo]

It's West Virginia.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He had tolerance long before then.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And I'm thinking West Virginia back then is probably like going to Mexico where they're like yeah, id, that's cute. Yeah, sure, that's fun. So yeah, he's 19. They sat together visiting, drinking beer and moonshine whiskey at two other taverns in the neighborhood of Don's Place. Before they came to don's place between 3 and 4 o'clock. For the purpose of doing what? Drinking more beer.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What day of the week is this?

[James Petregallo]

This I don't know what day of the week it is, but is the middle of the fucking afternoon.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It is the third bar we've been to at 4pm wow.

[James Petregallo]

They've been drinking for a while. Yeah, 1940. No jobs between them. Okay. They had no money.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Which is when you go to bars to drink. Oh my God, this is crazy. And so the one, the, the the guy who ends up the stepson of the owner here talks about. I got lost. Okay? Yeah. Stepson of the owner here of Don's place. Noah Farrell, stepson here, he decides he's going to step in. He's Hayes or what the fuck is his Hayes? I got to find his last name here. It's confusing because it's from an old document, so I'm trying to like piece it together here. So anyway, this guy, they had no money. And the guy and the stepson who helps his stepdad operate the tavern wouldn't give them beer on credit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

Not having it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Starting a tab and waiting for you to come back to pay it.

[James Petregallo]

No, absolutely not. Yeah. Luther Daniels asked for it. They said, no. Then Clyde Fields asked for it and said, I'm not letting you have beer either. Neither of you. Not happening. They said both of them were intoxicated. And trouble occurs between Daniels, who's the 19 year old? Luther Daniels, a 19 year old. Can't hold his moonshine. Shocking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Crazy, right? So they're intoxicated and Daniels starts some trouble with a customer named Artemis Mounts.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Artemis.

[James Petregallo]

Artemis Mounts.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, Mounts. What? So during the altercation between them, Fields, the 19 year or no. Yeah, Fields is Clyde Fields. The other guy, 45 year old, he steps up during all this and invites anyone here who wants to fight me, step the fuck up and fight me right now. He gives an open invitation to the whole bar to fight him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Taking all comers right now.

[James Petregallo]

How drunk are you when you'll go?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'll fight any fucking son of a.

[James Petregallo]

Bitch in this fucking bar right now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's.

[James Petregallo]

That's a son of me. Yeah, yeah. Liquid courage and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And bass. Then people are armed in these like now. You can't be armed in there. That's a felony in the first place.

[James Petregallo]

Either way, even if they're not armed, it's the middle of fucking West Virginia somewhere. Someone's gonna go, I'll take you up on that. Sure.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I haven't had a drink yet. Let's go.

[James Petregallo]

Let's do it. I just got. I just got off work. Fuck you two been up to? So I just came out of a coal mine, for Christ's sake. Oh, whoop your ass.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm pissed off and thirsty. Let's go.

[James Petregallo]

Anyone who wants to engage in a fight with him to do so. So that's fucking amazing. So they tell him, you both have to leave the fucking building. Yeah. All right. So Fields, Clyde, the older guy, he says sure. Leaves the room but remained outside in the open space in front of the entrance. Yeah. Daniels refuses to leave.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

And tells the. Tells the owner and his stepson that if he left, you're gonna. If you want me to leave, you're gonna have to put me out of the fucking building to do it, pal.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Throw me out.

[James Petregallo]

You're gonna have to throw me out. That's how this is gonna work here. So a fight ensues between the stepson and Daniels. Yeah, so he's a little younger, he's ready, you know, more in his age range here. During which the stepson of the owner hits Daniels three or four times with a wooden nightstick. He said, you want to get put out? I'll fucking put you out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Brought a weapon.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. One of the blows striking his head and ear. Daniels was knocked to the floor, and while on the floor, he and the stepson here struggled to get a nightstick to fight him over the nightstick. So the stepson's on top of Daniels and while both of them are on the floor, the stepson bashes Daniels in the head with a.32 caliber revolver.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There it is.

[James Petregallo]

Which he drew from his pocket. After being struck with the revolver, Daniel says, all right, I had enough.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Literally, I'll leave.

[James Petregallo]

He is quoted as saying, I've had enough. Booze or beating? Which one?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, both ways.

[James Petregallo]

Both. I've had enough of everything. So the fight between them ended and Daniels either rose to his feet or was helped up to the floor by the stepson here and walked out without assistance. And you know, that was that. So he opens the door to the front entrance where the stepson pushed him through the doorway. So get the fuck out of here now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

When told me to do.

[James Petregallo]

When he's pushed out, Daniels bashes into Fields, who was standing in front of the building there near the entrance, and both of them fell down.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, shit.

[James Petregallo]

This is so drunk that. Imagine that you shove one drunk into another drunk and they both fall down.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, he hit a drunk with another drunk.

[James Petregallo]

Drunken croquet. Now we're playing. This is hilarious.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Drunken lawn sports.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Drunk in the. In the corner pocket.

[James Petregallo]

I got. I'm going to use the. Use the 19 year old cue ball. We'll put the 40 year old in the corner pocket there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

19 into the 45. Both on the ground.

[James Petregallo]

Both on the ground. Boom. Ah, look at me. I called it. Holy shit. So he. They both fell down. Daniels gets up and leaves the scene, but while walking away, he hears a gunshot. And he turns around and he saw Fields and he saw him put his hand to his stomach and fall to the ground. Oh, fields did. The 40 something year old. Now, after Fields was knocked down, Daniels was pushed against him. He, I guess he had arose or either stood up on the ground in the front of the door or approached the door and attempted to enter the building. But before he could get inside the building, the stepson who stood inside the rear door fired. Inside the building near the door, fired one shot from the revolver. And that's what struck Fields in the region of his chest. It passed entirely through his body, through and through, severing a main artery.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Uh.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, and he dies pretty goddamn quick. He bleeds out there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

So, yeah, the testimony from internal hemorrhages, the testimony of witnesses produced by the state was to the effect that Fields didn't even participate in the fight between Daniels and the stepson, the staff. He left voluntarily and was just waiting for his friend outside. So they said they're charging him with murder. They're charging the guy with murdering him? Yeah, he fucking shot him while he was outside not doing anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, good point.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. They said that Fields made no threats and committed no hostile act against the defendant. All he did was ask for beer. They said, no, you guys got to leave. And he left.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So he didn't do anything. They said that while the defendant. I mean, this was after a fight, obviously. Yeah, but then he left.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Emotions are high.

[James Petregallo]

Emotions are high. He did offer to fight anybody in the place. Yeah, but then he left. It was over. The threat was over.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why? You can't have weapons with guns or that with booze.

[James Petregallo]

This is the. This is the point. Yeah, they said that. And he made no hostile act against the bar owner or anything. So that while the defendant here was. The stepson was near the door with the revolver in his hand. Field swore at him and told the stepson that he was not scared of you or nothing. You got. And go ahead and shoot. And he said, all right. Pow. And shot him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You can't do that.

[James Petregallo]

You can't do that. You can't go. Well, he asked for it. That's not okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He said to.

[James Petregallo]

He said, it's all right. So each of the five witnesses produced in behalf of the state who were on or near the tavern and observed Fields testified that he did not see a knife in his possession before or when the shooting occurred. After Fields was shot, he did not go on to. He didn't go to his assistance, but told someone nearby to take care of Fields, then went from the door toward the rear of the room. The stepson, the Stepson shot him and then was like someone helped him. By six witnesses, including the bar owner and her and the stepson. And everybody testified on his behalf. There's him. There's Noah Farrell, who is the stepfather, Jesse Farrell. I guess that's the mother of the defendant. And one other witness testified to the effect that on other occasions before the shooting occurred, there had been trouble between Fields and the defendant. And on each occasion, Fields made threats to kill him. And that Fields has made several similar threats outside the presence of the defendant, which were communicated to him before he shot Fields that day. They said he would tell other people, I'm gonna kill that son of a bitch. So other than the testimony of some of the witnesses that Fields was attempting to attack the defendant and to enter the building for that purpose with a knife or some instrument when the defendant shot him, there's no evidence that Fields was armed with any weapon, ever attempted to execute any threat made by him to injure or kill the defendant. He's just a drunk who was standing outside talking shit, mouthing off. Yeah, they had to say he started coming toward the door with a knife. That's why I shot him. That's just what they had to say. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

If you could just shoot mouthy drunks.

[James Petregallo]

Holy, holy Jesus Christ.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In this country.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, I was a bouncer for a long time. I would have a body count of 300 fucking people on me. Like, not even every fucking night. Oh, this lippy bitch. And this fucking big jacked up douchebag. And this. All these. Forget about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What do you mean? This isn't dress code.

[James Petregallo]

What are you talking about? I'm fine. I'm like. Don't cut me off. I'm fine. That's bullshit, you guys.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What do you mean, no athletic shorts?

[James Petregallo]

Let me talk to the manager. Let me talk to him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I can't wear a hat in here.

[James Petregallo]

Bullshit. Let me talk to the manager. Who do you think sent me here to throw you out? Stupid.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He made the rules. I'm enforcing right now.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I don't fucking care. He said, get that guy out of here. We go. All right, Time to go.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You fucking know your pants say Adidas on them, man. No, you can't be in here.

[James Petregallo]

That was a sports bar. You can wear anything you want. Still, though.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Crunch Fitness.

[James Petregallo]

Sir, it's really just drunk guys groping girls. You have to throw them out for it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What? I said she had pretty hair. You said, I'd like to taste your cunt.

[James Petregallo]

Get out. Well, you had both hands on her. Ass, one on each cheek. This is not okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She had nice hair.

[James Petregallo]

Oh my God. Oh, shit. So everybody also on the defense side testifies to the effect that Fields was in the room when the fight between Daniels and the stepson began, or while it was in progress. And that he threw a beer bottle at the defendant which either grazed or struck him. Still, you can't shoot him 20 minutes later for that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, beer bottle anymore.

[James Petregallo]

If he's throwing shitloads of them at you, maybe you're allowed to shoot him then. But if you had like a. A huge supply, if he's got an.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Armful of them and just chucking one.

[James Petregallo]

Maybe then, but not later. So they said that Fields, while standing in the door during the fight, called Daniels to give the defendant a good one. Said, yeah, give it to him good, you son of a bitch. Which again, isn't a shooting worthy offense. And also yelled to the defendant, I will kill you when this is over. That is that when the defendant was standing near the door holding the revolver, Fields, with a knife or some other instrument in his hand, was standing with one foot on top of the step in front of the door. See, when they described all that to you here in front of the door, and the other foot. And the other foot in the doorway, they said that the defendant told Fields not to come in the place again and that he would shoot him if he did. That Fields told the defendant that the defendant would not shoot him and that he didn't have enough guts to shoot him. Uh, oh, you ain't got the guts. And that he called him of, quote, a vile name. And that the defendant then shot Fields as he was attempting to enter the doorway. When the defendant was asked why he shot Fields, he replied, I was scared. He was aimed to kill me.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And when asked why he did not run from Fields, he answered, quote, I had no place to run except run and run in where my family was.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Because I got a gun.

[James Petregallo]

I'm not running from shit. Yeah, I'm not running from shit and I'm not going to take him. He's going to go and stab my mom now. I guess he's trying to say so. He also testified that when Fields attempted to enter the doorway before he fired the shot, that he had one hand on the door frame and struck at the. And said that Fields had one hand on the door frame and that Fields struck at me with a knife, which he had in his other hand. Nobody else saw this knife except for him and his father. None of the other people in the bar so Noah Farrell, the father, testified to the effect that while Fields was at the door, he had some kind of instrument in his hand, but the witness could not say it was a knife. Eddie Dodson, who was in his automobile at a filling station near the tavern where he went with his wife and two children for the purpose of getting gas produced in behalf of the defendant, he testified that when he came to the filling station, he saw two men, one near the filling station, the other standing in the front entrance of the tavern. He said he heard cursing and loud talk and that one of the men was trying to get in the door and had one hand on one side of the door. And that he was gouging at something in there with something. That's very descriptive. Gouging at something in there with something.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Something.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. That the witness then heard the shot but did not see who fired it, and that the man at the door was shot. He jumped backward, turned around, and sank to the ground. And that the witness then left the station in his automobile and didn't immediately make any report of the events to which he seen. He watched a guy be shot to death and was like, back in the car, kids, let's go. And just took off.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

That's awesome. Wow. The defendant and some of the witnesses who testified on behalf of the state, as well as some of the witnesses who testified on behalf of the defense, made and gave signed written statements concerning the manner in which the shooting occurred and what took place in the tavern before the shooting to a member of the Department of Public Safety who investigated the shooting shortly after it occurred. Don't send homicide detectives or anything. And these statements in some particulars differ from the testimony given at trial by each witness who signed a signed statement. Can't do that. During the argument of the case to the jury, attorneys representing the state commented upon the failure of the defendant to produce the knife at trial in support of their contention that Fields, when shot, didn't have a knife. They're like, where's the fucking knife then? Yeah, if you shot him, he went down.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Where it goes?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Should be a knife right there.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. They said upon substantially the foregoing evidence, the jury found the defendant guilty of murder in the second degree.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And they, they rejected the contention that he was shot in self defense. And. Yeah, he's gonna get 20 years for that. So. He got 20 years. You, sir. Hey, fuck off. He got 20 years in prison for a bar fight shooting. I just love a bar fight where someone goes, I'll fight anybody in this fucking place. Something about that really cracks me up and really makes me happy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's fascinating that that is what West Virginia did to this man. And this lady hired a man to murder.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. Got five to eight, send him to the tavern. And this is like a legitimate. I don't know, sort of legitimate kind of. It's not a conspiracy murder for hire, which is. Jesus. So on appeal here, they allege that after he was convicted of murder in the second degree, he learned that the knife possessed by Fields at the time of the shooting had been discovered in the possession of Julius Estep of Roseanne, Virginia, and that Estep and Condi Staley Stanley of Mohawk, West Virginia, were eyewitnesses and knew that the knife possessed by Fields was removed from the place on the ground where it had fallen after Fields was shot, that he didn't know Estep or Stanley and that they were present at the scene of the shooting until after the trial had ended, and that he could not have discovered or learned of these new facts concerning the removal of the knife and the presence of these two men before or during the trial. So basically, new evidence is what he's saying here. So the statements in the affidavits of Julius Estepp and Condi Stanley, dated February 8, 1957, are to the effect that on the day of the murder, they were residents of Virginia, and that Estep was then employed by Knox Creek Coal Company. And when they made their affidavit, Stanley was hired by the Herbert Coal Company, they said. About 4:30 in the afternoon, while traveling through West Virginia to their home in Virginia, they stopped at Delorme on the side of West Virginia Route 49, opposite a tavern which they intended to visit to get beer. At that time, they noticed some trouble at the tavern, that they saw a man standing just outside the front door of the tavern, and then another man saw him lunge out the door, fall against the first man, knock him to the ground. The man who had lunged out the door walked rapidly away from the front of the tavern toward the town of Delorme, and that the man who had been knocked down to his feet pulled a knife from a pocket in his pants.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

He then raved and cursed, waving the knife in his right hand, moved toward the door of the tavern, and at the time, another man appeared in the door of the tavern holding a pistol in his right hand and told the man with the knife not to come back in the tavern, that the man with the knife advanced to the steps of the tavern, grasped the door with his left hand. Everybody seems to get that part. And had one foot on the door sill and thrust forward with the knife. And that the man who held the gun backed away. That at the time there was a shot and the man with the knife staggered backwards from the doorstep to the road for a short distance, placed his left hand near his chest and stomach, slumped to the ground. And that as he fell, the knife in his right hand slipped from his fingers and dropped to the ground. And after the man fell to the ground, another man, who Estep knew as Fonzo Blankenship, great name. F, O N, Z. F O, S O, F O, N, S O. Fonzo. Okay. Blankenship ran from the door of the tavern to the man on the ground and leaned over him. And that the man on the ground asked for water. And they. The people who ran, people witnesses here who ran across the road from the automobile to the place where the wounded man lay on the ground near the edge of the highway. They thought he was intoxicated and not seriously or mortally wounded. They thought he was farting around. Estep saw the knife on the ground about a foot and a half to two feet to the right of the man and almost opposite his waist. The knife was open and the blade was exposed. Estep picked up the knife, closed. It's a fuck. Are you stupid?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Touched it.

[James Petregallo]

He picked it up, closed it and put it in his own pocket. That's a nice knife you got there. You call that a knife?

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't want this no more.

[James Petregallo]

That ain't a knife.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a nice buck knife. I'll take it.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. He said at the time, many people came in the front of the tavern and other people in the tavern came outside. They said they did not know the man who had been shot or the man who shot him. They just stole knives. They said. When people congregated in the front of the tavern, the affiants became apprehensive that there would be further shooting and fighting. And for that reason, they hurried back to the automobile and continued out of there. On the way, they looked at the knife and talked about the shooting. Hey, I just stole a major piece of evidence from a murder trial.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Look at this. Isn't this nice? He picked it up at a murder scene.

[James Petregallo]

And that Estep took the knife to his home, showed it to his wife, and put it in a jar on top of the refrigerator in his dining room.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And. Yeah. He said the affiants were not in the neighborhood of Delorme after that day and did not know that the man who had been shot had died or that the defendant had been tried and convicted of murder until they were informed of those facts by somebody else in February of 1957. And that's when they did these affidavits saying that. Yeah, yeah. Here. And the judge, though, in this. I mean, or the appeals court.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Pretty good piece of found evidence. Some idiot saying, I stole the thing. They say, we don't believe that guy. We don't know him. No evidence he was even there or had a knife. Affirmed. Keep on keeping on. Wow. And they send them back. So wow. Justice in that one. But the first one is a little sketchy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

We heard about a knife. Heard tell. And we don't see it. So can't.

[James Petregallo]

I guess that's it right now. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Proof.

[James Petregallo]

Didn't see it the first time. And I don't know this fella here saying he's got it. That's on a jar in his kitchen. That ain't going to cut it. So there you go, everybody. That's West Virginia.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Just wanted to squeeze in a little crazy day at the bar at the end there, because that is just some wild Virginia.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wild placement. West Virginia. I mean, it's.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, every time it's different, man.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The rules don't apply to them.

[James Petregallo]

No, it is just different, dude. It's a whole. It's like this weird little pocket. Like we've like. Like a little like. Like. Like D something zone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're right.

[James Petregallo]

Desaturation zone, where they're like, listen, we need coal from here. Yeah, y'all do whatever you want to each other or whatever the fuck's going on. Just as long as the coal gets on the rail cars, we're all right. That's how it used to be there. It's crazy. I don't know what's going on. They're still recovering from that, basically. So there you go. That is West Virginia. Hope you like that show. If you did, you can tell the world about it by getting on whatever app you're on and giving us five stars and saying something lovely about us. It helps a lot. We don't ask. We usually don't. We don't ask for a lot, but that's something you definitely want to do. It really, really helps the show a lot. Helps us drive up the charts. And that kind of is how. That's the currency of this business. So that's how it works there. Speaking of that. Of the currency of our business, patreon.com crimeinsports is where you get all of your bonus material. And we have a ton of it. Anybody, $5 a month or above, immediately upon subscription, you're going to get hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard popping right up. And then you get new ones every other week to one crime in sports and one small town murder. And you just get it all. You know, just take everything. Take it. We walk out, pockets empty, episodes falling out of them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everything we got.

[James Petregallo]

Take it all. This week, what you're going to get for crime and sports. We are going to talk about the Kobe Bryant, Colorado incident here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Know what else to call it? Because we'll, we'll decide what we think about it. We have depositions and we have the court case. And we're going to decide based on what everybody says, what we think, and who the hell knows? Because that kind of got pushed under the. Under the rug there. Then for small town murder, it is time again for Internet salad.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Which is where we're going to go around. Just whatever's online, whatever the stories are, the day we're going to talk about them, we're going to fuck around on the Internet and, and just find stories. And it's a comedy show. We're just gonna. It's to loosen everybody up between anytime that we see that it's just political stuff going on. And in either direction. None of that shit matters. Just constant political stuff. Whether you're happy with what's happening or shit pissed off about what's happening. Either way, it's just a lot of stress and it's a lot. So we're gonna tell you what's out there, what's going on without you having to see 50 political stories. Cause there will be no politics. This will be just shit that doesn't matter. Yes, Exactly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The first 20 minutes we're on the. We're on the fucking microphones. This is what we did.

[James Petregallo]

This is what we're bullshitting about before we hit the record button. This is so you can find it and hang out with us and be just like before an episode. So I would suggest listening to that, then listening to a regular episode just like you're here. Why not? So that's patreon.com crime and sports. You also get a shout out, which we'll get to the shout outs in a second. But I do want to say head over to shutupandgivememurder.com tickets for live shows are available. And I'll tell you what, Pittsburgh, February 7th, you are the first show. Please buy the tickets because all the other shows are selling so much better than you honestly. Columbus is sold out the next night. It's been sold out for a week in November. Portland is 99% sold out. Seattle's close. Washington, Philly. Those are getting sold out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Running out the door.

[James Petregallo]

We just announced Madison like three days ago. It is gone. Just about. It's getting sold out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Very few left.

[James Petregallo]

Pittsburgh has more than a few left. Get your goddamn tickets. Pittsburgh. Get in there and come see us, because we love it there and we like the crowds in Pittsburgh. That's why we go there when our agents go, let's go here, we go, Pittsburgh. And they go, really? And we go, yes, we like it. There's. They go, all right, if you like it. And then they book us. So don't make jerks out of us is what we're saying. You're making us look dumb, so get in there. Shut upandgivemerder.com is where you get all that shit and more. And also follow on social mediamalltownmurder on Instagram, Smalltown Pot on Facebook. That said, Jimmy hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever have a huge murder conspiracy against us and then disappear for six years and not even face the music. Jimmy hit me with that list right goddamn now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This was executive producer or Gary Howard, Tyler Holmes, Matthew Britt, Vanessa Thompson. Second place in the fantasy league.

[James Petregallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Cottage Classic docs. I don't. I'm not sure what that is. I imagine if you Google it, you'll find out. Jake Adranya. Probably it's a gna. I don't know. Adranya. A dragna. It's Adrian, right?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gangsters moving silent. Like lasagna.

[James Petregallo]

Like lasagna.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. All right. Peyton Meadows. Other producers this week, Peyton Meadows, Beth Bowie. Happy hour in Midland, Texas. Back home, I think. Janice Hill, Elizabeth Cracknell, Stacy Clement. Brea. Brea Weeks. D. Money. Had a kid. Alan Torque. Torque. T, O, R, K, E. That's Torque, right? Maybe it's Torquey. Who knows? Ryan Marlin, Keller. Demonte Marley. Jamie. Jamie Gates. Tyler with no last name. Todd Labister, Joe Patterson. Nicole G. Chris H. Stephanie Robertson. Biscuits in the bathroom. Tori Merrill. David. Well, just stay in there because that's the safest place. David DeMoss. Streets Rider. Michael D. Maria Sherman, Morgan Prine, RVZ. Chad Roberts, Amy Bates, Marine McLaughlin, June Morris. Coopy with no last name. Dennis Verhoven, Nathan Lippert, Matthew with no last name. Rick Matthews. Jay with no last name. Mush McKenzie. LT, the letters L and T. Probably not that one. Marion Hawk. Rebecca Crutchfield. Douglas McClurkin. Lily Fortenbaugh. Leanne Hill. Susan Fletcher. Alexis with no last name. Gabrielle Godoy. Nick James. Nick James, Not. And Amy Oliver Murr. Burns. God damn it. Nicole Williams. Josephine Lancaster. Solen. Solen Detassity. Detassign. That's a long one, right? I don't know. There's no G. There is a G. G, N, Y.

[James Petregallo]

Who the knows these sirens are killing us people?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Miranda Presnell. Aaron. Tara. Trey. Trey Harn. Harry Trotter. Probably not. Sky Davis. Benjamin Patton. Ode Pate. Rebecca Ramey. Terry Stanley. Betty. Betty Warren. Leslie Dixon. Dixon. Linda Morris. Jacqueline D. Amanda. Walk up. Denise Carter. Ella Kopeck. Angela Robinson. Karen with no last name. Natalie Lewis. Oscar Walters. Al. The letters A and L. The whole.

[James Petregallo]

State of Alabama just a guy named Al.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Possibly. Maybe it's AI. I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

Allen Iverson's here for us. Good. That's cool. Thanks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Alexandra Shay. J.C. j.C. Chavez. Parker Brown.

[James Petregallo]

Aaron Walker.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Bone Eating Snot Flower.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. That's one of the Bone Thugs guys. Bone Thugs is behind us, too. See? Look at that. We're doing great.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Fleshing Busy. And Bone Eating Snot Flower.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's the one with the deep voice. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

That's why you don't know his name. Because he doesn't have a lot of parts. But when they're in there, you notice him. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

He gets.

[James Petregallo]

He's the guy, all right.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Forest Bear. Probably not. There's no way somebody named their kid Forest when their last name is.

[James Petregallo]

I really hope so.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That'd be amazing. Brooks Crandall, Megan with no last name. D. Low. Dan W. Joe Smart. Koi Cresta. Bbt Yeah, right. I don't know what that means. Patrick Rogers, Alyssa Lie. Build. Just Monica. She doesn't have a nickname. Not Mo, Not Mon.

[James Petregallo]

Not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's just Monica.

[James Petregallo]

No last name.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Forest, Wonderly, James. I don't know if you. If you name your kid Forest. If your last name is Wonderly. Madeline Dixon. Brit with no last name. Eliza with no last name. Sydney James. Stephanie Hooligan. I think that is Miss. That's not her last name. I think Apple corrected that.

[James Petregallo]

Hooligan.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Kayla Vincent. Doug with no last name. Katie Lee. Chris with no last name. Thomas Cross. Jessica Anderson. Justin Shoemaker. Kyle C. Sky Deceit, Cali Slaughter. James Kidd, Philip Anderson, Mary V. Jen Mack, Shelby Leberve, Le Bevere. Darrow with no last name. Trish. It might be Labov. Leber Labar. Oh, I don't know Trish with no last name April Horn Mary Kathleen Vittoria Marchese Tonya Santos Jason with no last name Caitlin Baddies Battles what is that bat? Geez, I think it's battles Davis W Jason Knock Jason Doc Noise uh Kara M Andre Gross Kevin with no last name Sean La Montana Scott Michaels what McCall Machowski? I don't know Michaelski Thomas Dunn Tom Scott Rebel Rebel Rebel Marie Leah Barber Dominic Anaya Aaron Stewart Yep Crystal Goodrich Athena Awesome Mary Jividan Jiva Day and Trisha Hall Jennifer Brock Nope, that's just Bach. Sarah what is that Curse Chick no way Jared Grimm Bill Jiederman Ryan Flickinger Flickinger Daniel Davidson Chally with no last name Ron Key with no last name Larry Denman Jane Hamlin Jenny Lien Tracy Baldwin Matt Turner Jamie Cut and Cuten Dana Cox David and Melinda Brianna Freeman Michelle Butthead Fletcher Chris Reagan Sophia Weeks Sophie Weeks Stephanie Leopold Krista with no last name Leslie Harper Stephanie Osterlin Christy Stevens Heidi Shingleton Tia Ti Van Yoni if I know Emily Emali A male Riffle rifle Riffle Jordan Grant Gamble Julie Meyers Liz Chandler Deandra Duhart Sherry Weston Amber with no last name Beth with no last name Cody Luce Labrita Librita Roja Wow. Amanda K. Daryl Abbott and all of our patrons. You guys are the best.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you so much everybody. From the bottom of our hearts we cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us. We just really really appreciate you thanks for everything and especially your money on Patreon that just you keep the show at a place where we always can do what we want to do because.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You make it viable because we don't have to behold the nobody.

[James Petregallo]

That's the we're beholden to you guys. So that's what's great about this show and what we love about the show and we hope that's what you love about it too. So keep hanging out with us. You want to follow us on social media? Shut up and give me murder.com drop down menu. Take anywhere you want to go in the small town murder your stupid opinions crime and sports world. That said, until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure. If you like small town murder you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery plus and the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey UFO lands in Suffolk and that's official said the news of the world. But what really happened across two nights in December 1980 when US servicemen saw mysterious lights in the forest near RAF Woodbridge and claimed to have had a close encounter with an actual craft?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Encounters, a new podcast available exclusively on.

[James Petregallo]

Wondery, takes a deep dive into one of the most famous and still unresolved.

[Jimmy Whisman]

UFO encounters to ever take place in the uk.

[James Petregallo]

Featuring shocking testimony from first hand witnesses. Hosts journalist, podcaster and UFO researcher Andy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

McVillan that's me, and producer El Scott take us back to the nights in question and examine all of the evidence.

[James Petregallo]

And conflicting theories about what was encountered in the middle of a Snowy Suffolk Forest 40 years ago. Are we alone? Encounters is a podcast which is going to find out. Listen to Encounters exclusively in ad free on Wondry plus. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or in Apple Podcasts.