Matthew Scher (2:50)

In the depths of an Atlanta forest, a clash between activists and authorities ends in tragedy. I'm Matthew Scher, and on my new podcast, We Came to the Forest, we exposed the hidden truths behind a shootout that left one activist dead and countless lives forever changed. Binge all episodes of We Came to the Forest ad free on Wondery Plus.

James Petrigallo (3:26)

Hello everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.

Jimmy Wisman (3:30)

Yay. Choo choo.

James Petrigallo (3:33)

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co host.

Jimmy Wisman (3:38)

I'm Jimmy Wisman.

James Petrigallo (3:39)

Thank you folks so much for joining us. All aboard the Murder Train pulling away from the station. We have an absolutely wild one for you today, as it always is for Express and every other episode too, for that matter. But Express, it's so compressed that it just seems crazier. So we have some wild stuff before we get to that. ShutUpAndGiveMerder.com is where you get tickets for live shows. And if you want to come to a live show in 2025, I highly suggest and recommend that you do it right now because a lot of these are selling out. We have Madison's sold out. We got San Diego's about sold out. Couple of tickets left in St. Louis. Grand Rapids, sold out. Portland, sold out. You got to get in there. Seattle, D.C. philly and Chicago are where there's some tickets available left. Get those tickets right now. Shut up and give me murder dot com. Get your merch while you're there to wear to a live show. Of course, listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which you don't have to like sports. We're doing a whole series on Evel Knievel right now, so you don't need to. It's barely sports. The guy's just flinging himself off of jumps with a motorcycle and crashing. It's a lot of. A lot of fun. You also should listen to your stupid opinions, of course, which is a hilarious show where we go over reviews of everything under the sun. And then if you listen to everything and you need more, Patreon is Where you get it. P A t r e o-n.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything. And I'm talking about soon as you subscribe, a huge back catalog of hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before. And then new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder, and you get it all, dammit. And this week, what you're gonna get for crime and sports, it's disaster. Potpourri.

Jimmy Wisman (5:26)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (5:27)

Industrial disasters, amusement park disasters, hot air balloon disasters, you name it. It's disaster time.

Jimmy Wisman (5:34)

We'll talk about it.

James Petrigallo (5:35)

We'll talk all about it. How can you be melted at work? We'll talk about it. Then for small town murder, we're gonna talk about psychics that actually succeeded. Oh, we've done so much debunking of everything. I'm like, let's find out when something actually worked. So we're gonna figure that out and figure out how that happened. So we'll talk about all that and more. That is patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show as well, the regular show. That said, I think it's time everybody to get into some crazy murder. I think it's time to sit back. What do you say? Let's all clear the lungs, arms to the sky and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay, let's go on a trip, shall we? All right. We're going to New Jersey this week. Here we go. That's the silence is whatever. Oh, okay, great. Wantage Township, New Jersey, to be exact. W A N T A G E. Wantage.

Jimmy Wisman (6:35)

Okay.

James Petrigallo (6:35)

That's how they say it. It's in northern New Jersey here. It's about an hour to the northwest of New York City, which I know sounds so weird. If you're not from the area you go, but New Jersey's over here and New York's over here. Yeah, but the city goes here and Jersey's inland. It's a whole. It's a whole thing here. So what?

Jimmy Wisman (6:52)

Northwest.

James Petrigallo (6:53)

Northwest of New York City. Yeah, that's why it's a long distance. Yeah. Very commutable though. An hour from the city, two hours to Philly and about an hour and 40 to Neptune City, New Jersey, which was our last New Jersey episode. Episode 529. Murder Audition, which was a crazy episode. That's the one where the kid got caught in the car. His friend Filmed him and did the whole sting operation on him because he killed that girl for no reason. It was horrifying. So we'll talk about that. This is in Sussex county, area code 973. Population in this town, 10,831. Okay, so a pretty small town to be an hour from the city. It's not bad. Median household income here is pretty high compared to the national average. National average is about 69,000. Here it is 88,563. And the median home price, super low to be commuting to New York city as well. $300,000 for the median home price, which is lower than the national average. Actually, this isn't the most fancy town going, but it's not that bad either. Here's a little bit of history, just a drop here. It was named for Wantage, England, of course. And it became a precinct, this town, on May 30, 1754. So it's been around precinct, yeah, quite a while. It's been a Township since 1798 and was one of the. It was included in the initial group of New Jersey townships. There was 100, 104 originally, and this was one of them here. Here are some reviews of this town. Alright. 5 stars here. Wantage is beautiful. A quiet rural town. You will find everything from majestic rolling hills with no shortage of farm animals and natural wildlife, to historic sites and buildings and vintage shopping boutiques for the outdoorsman. There are ideal locations for fishing, hunting and for hikers. Among other trails, you can climb to the highest point in all of New Jersey, High Point Monument. Located less than an hour's drive from major cities, Wantage offers a peaceful, scenic escape from urban living. Which sounds like a real estate agent wrote that, for Christ's sake. Wow. Here's three stars. It's a rural area. It's great if you just want to be away from the hustle and bustle. You need to be able to drive as all of the stores are 20 minutes away by car. It's kind of a rurally area. There's no public transportation in the county. Growing up around here was okay as long as your parents are involved, long as they're hanging out with you in the woods. I don't know what's going on. It's not a good area to retire in. It's the northeast. Yeah, it's cold and wet and expensive. Three stars here. I've grown up here for the majority of my life and I really like it. I love seeing all the animals everywhere. Sometimes it's Sheep. Sometimes it's cows. We get it. Farm animals. If you said sometimes it's a yeti, that would be interesting. Otherwise, I don't know. You definitely have to get used to the farm smell, though. Yeesh.

Jimmy Wisman (9:59)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (9:59)

I just wish places were closer together. You can't really walk place to place. And it smells like it's an hour from the city, though. That's not bad. And then finally, three stars. Only a few restaurants. Mexican, Greek, and an inner. And there are two diners. That's it.

Jimmy Wisman (10:19)

That's all.

James Petrigallo (10:20)

They can't believe there's no Italian joint around here.

Jimmy Wisman (10:23)

It's fascinating that that's the only thing they want to talk about.

James Petrigallo (10:27)

That's it. Done. I was like cuisine.

Jimmy Wisman (10:29)

That's it.

James Petrigallo (10:29)

That's it. Not even if it's good or not. Just only a few restaurants.

Jimmy Wisman (10:33)

These exist. Bye.

James Petrigallo (10:34)

We have these things to do here. Just filling in on this. Just what we have things to do. The Wantage, New Jersey Harvest Festival, which takes place at the Holy Spirit Orthodox Christian church around October.

Jimmy Wisman (10:49)

Ish.

James Petrigallo (10:50)

It's September 29th and 30th, so, yeah. Admission is free, obviously, because I. Who's going to pay for. What do they have here? Food vendors, live music. They have. It says it's on church grounds. And they have. Let's see. I see. No, they don't really talk about any of the activities. They say there is American and Slavic foods.

Jimmy Wisman (11:12)

Great.

James Petrigallo (11:13)

So that's nice. And then there's two bands playing. Okay. We have the Culver Gap Bluegrass Trio.

Jimmy Wisman (11:21)

Yep.

James Petrigallo (11:22)

Which they leave no mystery of what they're doing. We get it. There's three, and we know what you're playing. And then finally, the Snake Oil Willy band, which sounds awesome. I want to see Snake Oil Willy. That's what I want to see. He only has one eye, right? Snake Oil Willie.

Jimmy Wisman (11:41)

It's just bad music, but he's passing it as good, I guess.

James Petrigallo (11:44)

That said, let's go ahead and talk about some murder, shall we? Jesus. Let's do it. Let's talk about a young lady first. Virginia Liotta. Just like Ray L I O T T A. She goes by Gina. Virginia Liotta, Which I guess if you took the eye out. There's Gina's in the name, I suppose.

Jimmy Wisman (12:03)

It's close. A lot of them go by Jenny. Some of them just go by Verge.

James Petrigallo (12:07)

Verge is a big one in the news.

Jimmy Wisman (12:09)

Is real popular.

James Petrigallo (12:10)

My mom had a friend named Verge. She was on the S. Oh. She was this crazy, loud, drunk lady. And we'd have to Go to her house and like, she was a disaster.

Jimmy Wisman (12:19)

I like VI or V, both of those are good.

James Petrigallo (12:21)

That's not bad. Yeah.

Jimmy Wisman (12:22)

Verge is just weird.

James Petrigallo (12:24)

Gina's usually not Virginia. Not Virginia, but she goes by Gina. She's born October 1969, and she has a brother named Joseph as well. Joey Liotta over here. So she grows up in this area. Her mom's name is Elizabeth Lott. L O T T. And Elizabeth is born in 1937. So, you know, obviously good amount older than her daughter. Now, Elizabeth here, they're like an educated family.

Jimmy Wisman (12:55)

Nice.

James Petrigallo (12:56)

Like a smart family. Now, it's funny because Elizabeth didn't start out like that. She didn't start out as having, like, money and status in a town. She was born in West Virginia as one of 13 children of a coal miner. Wow. So her life could not be any more different than it was when it started.

Jimmy Wisman (13:16)

It could have gone way worse.

James Petrigallo (13:18)

Oh, my God. She could have been in one of our West Virginia episodes. Think about it. So instead, she. That's impressive. She'll end up being a professor of economics at Pace University in New York.

Jimmy Wisman (13:30)

Good God.

James Petrigallo (13:31)

I don't think when you're born as one of 13 kids to a coal miner in West Virginia in 1937, you're gonna go, she's gonna be a New York City professor someday. Teach us all about math. Like, that's good for her, man. Now she has the two children and gets divorced very young. When the kids are very young. So, like, early 70s, her and her husband get divorced. So she ends up raising them alone. And while she's doing this, she puts herself through college to become an economics professor.

Jimmy Wisman (14:02)

Unbelievable.

James Petrigallo (14:03)

Elizabeth has some stick to itness to her. Yeah.

Jimmy Wisman (14:07)

That's very rare. Yeah.

James Petrigallo (14:08)

She is hardcore, man. She also puts Joseph through medical school.

Jimmy Wisman (14:13)

What?

James Petrigallo (14:14)

And puts Gina through law school. Yeah.

Jimmy Wisman (14:17)

Was she a stripper?

James Petrigallo (14:18)

That. No, that's. Back then, too. It was a little easier. You could actually afford college. But still, I mean, those are some.

Jimmy Wisman (14:25)

Of the hardest to do. Yeah.

James Petrigallo (14:28)

And also just. She's smarter. Kids have to be doing so I mean, to become. To come from where she came from and then end up putting her kids through law and medical school. Wow. She did about as good as you can do. That's like American dream shit right there. So by the time the kids are adults, Gina and Joseph here, like I said, she is a professor of economics at Pace in New York, and her health is declining pretty good here. And when she gets into her 60s, her health starts to decline a good amount. Now, A few years back, in the early 2000s or late 90s, late 1990s, she buys a house described as her dream home.

Jimmy Wisman (15:07)

Great.

James Petrigallo (15:08)

It's on 40 acres of land. Oh, yeah. She bought an estate.

Jimmy Wisman (15:13)

My dream home, too.

James Petrigallo (15:14)

Fuck, yeah. It's isolated from the other homes in the area. She would eventually like her kids to build houses on this property.

Jimmy Wisman (15:22)

On the property? Yeah.

James Petrigallo (15:23)

Stay nearby, have a big compound, basically. Sure. She's gonna move a little bit of the West Virginia holler into the 40. Except they have 40 acres. It's not a trailer on the front lawn in front of the house, which is good. So 1992, Gina, she meets a man. Okay. Boy, he's an interesting fella here. Paul Foglia. F O G L I A.

Jimmy Wisman (15:46)

Is she done with medical school at this time?

James Petrigallo (15:50)

The son went to medical school. Her brother Joseph. She went to law school.

Jimmy Wisman (15:53)

She went to law school, yeah.

James Petrigallo (15:54)

At this point, I don't think so because she is only 23 years old at this point in 92. So Paul Fogli is born in October 1960. So he's a good nine years older than her.

Jimmy Wisman (16:05)

Wow.

James Petrigallo (16:05)

To begin with. Now, they met when she was a social worker and he was a male stripper.

Jimmy Wisman (16:13)

Hell yeah.

James Petrigallo (16:13)

That's how they went. Now, Paul. Paul has an. He's a real interesting guy. He does a lot of stripping. Number one, he's like a six foot one, 200 pound, like, muscular guy who strips. And it is fucking hilarious that he has like long, dark hair, which when he's younger and, you know, stripping was probably great for him, but later on, his hair is terrible. Okay. But he still styles it. Like, he still has the same amount of hair. Like, he likes like a. It looks like a Johnny Depp hairstyle. Is the best way to fucking describe it. Like a ponytail with, like bangs that long bangs that come down in the front. But he has like no hair up top. That's the fucked up part. So he's just got like this. It's such a mess.

Jimmy Wisman (17:00)

Later on, the detail is to pull it over the bald spot.

James Petrigallo (17:04)

People used to scream and shove money in this guy's pants and now they'd like, oh, get your horrifying head away from me. Oh, my God, dude, It's bad. He's also worked as a mechanic before, but stripping's his main job, though. That's what he mainly does. Also a personal trainer when that comes up here and there.

Jimmy Wisman (17:24)

But also a stripper.

James Petrigallo (17:25)

But also he likes to strip and strips a lot. And we'll find out. We'll Find out where and when. Also, now, the relationship between him and Gina is on and off all the time. Because he's a.

Jimmy Wisman (17:40)

Cause he's a stripper.

James Petrigallo (17:41)

Well, yeah, and he's a mess, too. He's absolutely a fucking mess on top of it. He's the most irresponsible person who's ever walked the earth. He's a fucking mess. Early in the relationship, Gina discovered that he had a whole other girlfriend that he didn't tell her about. So there was that. Also, he would call Gina obsessively at work. And not only would he call her at work, he would call her boss up to make sure she was working.

Jimmy Wisman (18:10)

Not call her to make sure the story was accurate, to make sure she's.

James Petrigallo (18:14)

At work right now. She's actually working, though, like, at her desk. And the guy would be like, do you work here? Is this.

Jimmy Wisman (18:20)

That's too much.

James Petrigallo (18:21)

You want to just come take a shift of a supervisor?

Jimmy Wisman (18:23)

Because you can't do that.

James Petrigallo (18:25)

No. It's absolutely crazy. The first Thanksgiving they spent together. This is fucking great, too. Gina invites Paul over to Elizabeth Lott's house for a family Thanksgiving. You know what I mean? Paul, by the way, is from a different. Completely different background. His family is trailer people.

Jimmy Wisman (18:42)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (18:43)

Like he's. Yeah. No one. I don't know where his father is. He lives in a trailer with his mother most of the time.

Jimmy Wisman (18:49)

Forethought to try to have some generational cycle breaking.

James Petrigallo (18:55)

Absolutely not. And he comes home, you know, stinking of 45 different women's perfume, to a trailer with his mother. So that's not great. So at this Thanksgiving dinner, Paul comes over, he takes a fucking bite of the food that Elizabeth has made, this feast for the family, and spits it out.

Jimmy Wisman (19:15)

Why?

James Petrigallo (19:16)

Tells her it's gross. Your food is terrible, okay? This is his first time there. You pretend it's good.

Jimmy Wisman (19:22)

You can't choke something back.

James Petrigallo (19:23)

Man, I hate Thanksgiving food. I go every year to my brother's house.

Jimmy Wisman (19:29)

It's Thanksgiving food that he's having Thanksgiving. You know what he's eating?

James Petrigallo (19:33)

Just eat it.

Jimmy Wisman (19:33)

Spit it out.

James Petrigallo (19:34)

Goddamn turkey. You've had it dry, you've had it without taste. Just eat it. It's fucking fine.

Jimmy Wisman (19:42)

Chew it more.

James Petrigallo (19:43)

It's ridiculous. Well, she used salt, and he doesn't like salt on what wasn't over salty. She used salt to season her food, and he does not like any salt, so he spit it out. So everyone's supposed to eat plain, unseasoned.

Jimmy Wisman (20:00)

Food because this weirdo, he just doesn't come over.

James Petrigallo (20:04)

Yeah, because Gina's stripper friend doesn't like it. Okay, so that's. Her mother was, quote, highly insulted. This is the way Gina would play this. Yeah. You come to my house and do this. It's not making a good first impression. Gina said that her mother also disapproved of Paul's dancing and had concern that he was doing other things and sleeping with people for money and prostituting himself.

Jimmy Wisman (20:31)

I think all of those are the same thing that she thought, all of them doing all those things, you know, sleeping with people for money.

James Petrigallo (20:39)

Also, Gina. Gina said, quote, she was concerned that he could be in homosexual relationships. Oh, my God. Wait, he's dancing around them dancers. They are all gay. You know that. Come on now. Nobody can keep a rhythm. Who's straight? That's ridiculous.

Jimmy Wisman (20:56)

That's an awful large leap.

James Petrigallo (20:58)

That's a big leap. It's a big fucking leap. But wait till later.

Jimmy Wisman (21:03)

Oh, shit.

James Petrigallo (21:05)

Early in the relationship, Elizabeth Lott told Gina that Paul was, quote, trying to control her and was stalking her from the beginning. She said, get away from that gay stalking dancer stripper weirdo who can't eat salt. Get him away from here.

Jimmy Wisman (21:21)

That's so funny.

James Petrigallo (21:22)

It's fucking hilarious. And you bring a Guy Home in 1992 to your mom in New Jersey who's from the West Virginia hills and shit, and you're like, here's my stripper boyfriend. And she's, get him the fuck out of my house. Obviously they're gonna say he dances.

Jimmy Wisman (21:37)

I'll bet he fucking do.

James Petrigallo (21:39)

And if Joseph brought home a stripper woman, the mother would probably have the same reaction.

Jimmy Wisman (21:45)

Get her out of here. She probably fucks dudes.

James Petrigallo (21:48)

Yeah. She probably has dried semen in her hair. Get her out of here. So a little bit about Paul's past. He has not been a squeaky clean kind of fella here. He has a pretty good police record, as a matter of fact. While this is all going on, while they're all together through the 90s into the early 2000s. In the early 2000s, Paul catches an assault charge against his own mother. Paul. Paul is.

Jimmy Wisman (22:15)

You can't hit Ma.

James Petrigallo (22:16)

Knocking his own mom around in the trailer.

Jimmy Wisman (22:19)

You can't hit Mom.

James Petrigallo (22:20)

That's just a. Paul, please, with the stereotypes. You really. I mean, Jesus Christ, man. He's also. That's not his first time arrested, obviously. Here. He was arrested in DeKalb County, Georgia, in 1980 for trespassing and larceny.

Jimmy Wisman (22:35)

Oh, boy.

James Petrigallo (22:36)

He was arrested in West Caldwell, New Jersey, in 1980. Two for larceny. And he was also arrested for disorderly conduct in Wayne, New Jersey in 2003. So none of these things are like, you know, mastermind criminal shit. He's not robbing banks or anything like that. But it all shows a lack of judgment and self control.

Jimmy Wisman (22:59)

I would say he's kind of a dick.

James Petrigallo (23:01)

Kind of a dick. Now Gina and Paul are gonna end up having two sons together. Oh, she's going to be tied to this man. Now, Gina said that he tried to find other employment. He spent. But instead of finding it, he spent several hours a day lifting weights and doing aerobics and going to the gym, which doesn't pay any money, unfortunately. Their first couple, their first child's born in 1999. And this is amazing. The night before his baptism. I've never heard of this before. Even for small town murder, this is going far. Okay. The night before their first child's baptism, they were living together, Gina and Paul. Gina. Something happened and Gina heard a noise and went and checked on the house and in the middle of the night found a naked woman under her son's crib. What brought a woman into the house where his wife and his soon to be baptized son are sleeping and was fucking her. And they made a noise and woke Jean up. So this woman ran and hid under the baby crib, butt naked. That happened.

Jimmy Wisman (24:16)

So imagine that's a night you go.

James Petrigallo (24:19)

In to get your infant.

Jimmy Wisman (24:20)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (24:21)

And you're like, what? And there's a naked woman under there. That has to be.

Jimmy Wisman (24:25)

I heard a noise.

James Petrigallo (24:26)

There's a fight.

Jimmy Wisman (24:27)

Nothing. I don't know. I was sleeping. Wow, that's gonna cause a fight on the baby. Oh, don't do that.

James Petrigallo (24:32)

Holy shit. I just hired a new nanny. Paul probably said, yeah, it's her first. I told her no clothes, so we know she's not stealing things. Yeah, that's what it is. I said you're not allowed to wear clothes because the last lady stole from us.

Jimmy Wisman (24:44)

She's from another country. Leave her alone. That's her culture.

James Petrigallo (24:47)

She's Lithuanian. That's how they do it. Just relax. So that is fucking amazing. That's a lot. There was another time when. Okay. Oh, he also lied to her and didn't tell her that he'd been married before. Also that she had to find that out because she's a lawyer, knows how to look that shit up. Also, they had a huge argument because there was a guy who was friends with Gina and friends with her for a long time, and obviously he didn't like that very much Paul. So they would argue all the time. And he ended up having a big argument where Paul hid in the bushes outside this man's house and then popped up to start yelling at him.

Jimmy Wisman (25:31)

Wow.

James Petrigallo (25:31)

And causing a big fucking scene. So that is wild. Now Gina is going to end up graduating from law school in 2003 is when she finally graduates. Because she was going kind of on and off. And you know, it's hard when you have two kids to go to, like, everyday law school. Yeah. So she does that. Somehow they continue this relationship through all of it. Through the naked woman under the crib. That's.

Jimmy Wisman (25:57)

That's a deal breaker.

James Petrigallo (25:58)

And I would hope, I would think that would be where it's like, okay, this relationship's over. There's literally a naked woman in my son's room under the crib. This is crazy.

Jimmy Wisman (26:06)

I smell sex on her still.

James Petrigallo (26:08)

If you saw that in a movie, yeah, you'd go, that's funny. But it's far fetched. That's like, it's something that would be in like the Hangover, you know what I mean? Like, a naked woman jumps out and the wife's, what the hell's going on here?

Jimmy Wisman (26:20)

Is Mike Tyson in the closet and gonna beat me up to Phil Collins song?

James Petrigallo (26:24)

Is there an Asian in somebody's trunk? What's happening? So anyway, she gets pregnant again in 2003 from Paul. My God. Jesus. So Elizabeth, mom was very upset that Gina was having another child with this fucking idiot. She's like, oh, my God, Seriously, please tell me someone else knocked you up. So the son was born, and Gina said that she believed that Paul loved his children, but he didn't support them financially at all. Now, for all intents and purposes, they break up, but they don't really break up. They're still kind of together. This is a very toxic, sticky relationship. It's ugly. So Gina is living with her mom in this nice big house in the dream home. And I guess while this is happening, Elizabeth does not want Paul to visit the home when she's not there. She said, I don't want him here when I'm not here. He can obviously visit his kids, but I don't want him in the house when I'm not there. So that's interesting. Gina said, I was hoping he would get a job and find an apartment where the kids could visit. Yeah, right.

Jimmy Wisman (27:36)

That'd be nice. Yeah.

James Petrigallo (27:37)

I trusted him. I thought if I supported him, he would come through and we could have a little life together. But it never happened. She still thinks it's been over 10 years of this crazy shit. And she's still like, I just thought, he'll just get it together one of these days. Like, that's unfortunate, dude. I mean, at what point do you go, I can't fix him. I can't. It's not fucking happening. This is the type of person that has like 14 toasters because she can't throw them out after they break. You know, it's like, holy shit. I feel bad. He's a lot. So Elizabeth said that he can only come to the house two days a week to see his sons. I don't want him here any more than that. So that's how it goes. And Elizabeth does not take any shit. She doesn't back down. She once they talked about arguing with. Because Elizabeth was always arguing with Paul. And one of the family members said, you know, you don't know this guy, though. You can't be arguing with grown men. He could hit you or he could do something to you. And she held up her fist and said, if he ever tries to hit me, I'd paste one on him. That's what she said. Paste one on him. So she's gonna punch him herself here. She's a tough old lady. There is an incident in the hospital here. Gina was sick during her second pregnancy and she was hospitalized and became sick in her room. Okay. The only person there is Paul. And he just left without even getting a nurse. He just says, well, you're sick. No, no. She was in the room being sick and he was like, well, I'm gonna take off now.

Jimmy Wisman (29:11)

This is gross.

James Petrigallo (29:12)

No one else was there. Yeah, he put the little bucket next to her and was like, not much more I can do.

Jimmy Wisman (29:16)

You're fat and it stinks in here.

James Petrigallo (29:18)

I gotta go. It's gross, man. I'm gonna go. It's all pukey in here. You know how that goes. So she said Gina called for help until 3 or 4 in the morning and just laid there throwing up.

Jimmy Wisman (29:28)

Oh, my God.

James Petrigallo (29:29)

Another incident at the hospital here. She was. She was in the hospital, like, checked in, in a bed. Paul was supposed to pick their older son up at school. And when Gina called him, he told her his car broke down and he's far from the school. So, you know, sorry, can't do it. Can't do it.

Jimmy Wisman (29:47)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (29:48)

Oh, well. So now she's got to try to figure this out from a hospital bed.

Jimmy Wisman (29:51)

Basically impossible at the moment. Sorry for you.

James Petrigallo (29:53)

Oh, she began. She said she became hysterical and began calling other kids, parents. And she finally reached one. She explained the problem. The parent told her that. What are you talking about? Paul is sitting here with me eating a can of tuna fish. How does he do this out of the can? He's just eating. What kind of a weirdo goes to their son's school and eats tuna out of a can? That's just.

Jimmy Wisman (30:18)

And told Fascinating human and told Gina.

James Petrigallo (30:20)

This, but he's there. So like he did it just to fuck with her while she was in the hospital, which is really weird. She told Gina, told her mother about that and Elizabeth said, well, that's the kind of thing that idiot does.

Jimmy Wisman (30:32)

Sounds like him.

James Petrigallo (30:33)

That sounds like him. So as of 2004, they're still involved in this horrible relationship here. He at this point is working as a bartender. Paul is at the Phone Booth bar F O N E by the way. Yeah, which still exists but under a different name. I think it's the Irish Cottage now, but it was the phone booth bar.

Jimmy Wisman (30:54)

It is neither a phone booth nor.

James Petrigallo (30:56)

An Irish cottage, nor an Irish cottage. And also you can't name it the phone booth Bar now because no one would know what the fuck that was.

Jimmy Wisman (31:04)

Why does that say Phoenay?

James Petrigallo (31:06)

I don't understand what. Maybe it's a French place. This could be. Maybe it's fancy. Escape reality and immerse yourself in a gripping tale of mystery, murder and romance with June's Jo. Join June as she unravels the truth behind her sister's mysterious death and use your observation skills to find hidden clues and uncover dark secrets. Plus, you get to explore stunning hidden object scenes from New York parlors to Parisian sidewalks. As each chapter reveals captivating mysteries. How sharp are your observation skills? Put them to the test in June's journey download for free today on iOS and Android.

Unknown (31:45)

Calling all dog owners. Your furry friend deserves top notch nourishment, and Ollie delivers the clean, fresh nutrition your dog needs in five flavors. They'll absolutely flip over. Ollie is made in US Kitchens with ingredients carefully sourced from trusted growers and producers around the world with absolutely no harmful fillers or preservatives with protein. First recipes like fresh beef with sweet potatoes, Fresh turkey with blueberries, or fresh lamb with cranberries. You might start thinking, dang, my dog eats better than. And that's probably true when it comes to Ollie. Give your pup a fresh start this new year by letting them taste test a personalized meal plan with ollie. Head to ollie.com wondery tell them all about your dog and use code wondery to get 60% off your first box of meals when you subscribe today. Plus they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's o l l ie.com wondery and enter code wondery to get 60% off your first box. Start your dog's new year off right with Ollie. Start your dog's new year off right with Ollie.

James Petrigallo (32:53)

So he's also got a. By now he has a ton of credit card debt, obviously, and even is in the process of being in trouble for forging his son's name on a credit card application. His son's name. At the most, it's a five year old.

Jimmy Wisman (33:10)

God damn.

James Petrigallo (33:11)

He's trying to. Or it's an infant. Either one. Gina says even though everyone thought she split up, they split up because she was too embarrassed to tell everyone she was still with him. She says, quote, we didn't split up. The relationship was ending. I was ambivalent. I was ambivalent for 12 years. You can blame me for that. I still wanted to be a family with my sons. My whole life was an embarrassment. I often said, yes, we're going to get married, everything's fine. She'd tell people that, oh, so what's going on? Yeah, no, we're getting married. That's what she tell people. Unbelievable, man. I guess there was certain times Gina said that her mother Elizabeth had criticized Paul in front of the children as well. I mean, one of them is an infant, so that doesn't matter. But the other one. She said also that Elizabeth often spoke badly of Paul in front of his son. Joseph Jenas brother said that Elizabeth and Paul would occasionally have confrontations, but not frequent confrontations, but they would have some things. Now, like I said, mom is trying. Mom's goal is to die eventually and leave the property to the kids so they can build houses on it and have this property going on. Yeah, here's some other relatives here. This is an outlier of an opinion here. This is Jean or Elizabeth's sister in law. So Gina's aunt, I guess, said that she saw Paul a few times at family reunions held every year about a week before Christmas and said he seemed mannerly and said when you just go meet someone for dinner or for a social get together, you only get a first impression of them. We didn't see any bad side to.

Jimmy Wisman (34:57)

Him except for when he spit the food and people.

James Petrigallo (35:00)

That was Thanksgiving. That wasn't the family reunion and we knew that. So yeah. So at Christmas when the Whole family's there. He knows how to pull it together and be full of shit. So, summer of 2004, there is an argument between Elizabeth and Paul. She called him a bum and he called her a, quote, fat pig. That's how that went. All right, you fat pig. That's what he said.

Jimmy Wisman (35:25)

Those are equal.

James Petrigallo (35:27)

Don't make me take my cock out and dance all over this fucking living room, because I will right now.

Jimmy Wisman (35:32)

You're a bum. Yeah, well, you're a fat pig.

James Petrigallo (35:34)

That's right. Paul said she just doesn't like me because I'm, quote, not professional. Yeah, that's what it is. That is fucking amazing. And the funny thing is, here he had the family talks about how he, quote, lost five jobs in five years as a mechanic and never had a goddamn dime saved. He's a bum is what they're saying, Period. You fat pig. September 24, 2004, 10:00pm here, okay. Gina here is driving home from a family dinner at their uncle's house in Totowa. T O T O W A. She's calling her mother on the cell phone, calling the house, and Elizabeth is not answering the phone. No, Liz repeated phone calls and she's not answering the phone.

Jimmy Wisman (36:25)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (36:26)

Which is odd for Elizabeth here. So Gina is worried and driving home quickly. She's got her two sons with her. One of them is an infant, like five months old, and the other is, you know, six. Six years old or so. So they arrive at the home here, and she said she knew something was wrong instantly. The sliding glass door was open, which it usually is unlocked. That's normal. She said, quote, I could see into the house from the sliding glass doors in the back. I first saw my mother. I could see her clearly lying face down in the family room. I could tell something was wrong even from the outside. Yeah, face down in the family room is not a normal. That's not how she usually watches Jeopardy. Probably. Yeah, it's not. That's how she thinks. Best to do the daily double, I think. So Gina said, I thought she had a heart attack. She was just laying there with a table on top of her. It's a wooden folding tray table on top of her.

Jimmy Wisman (37:21)

Oh, one of those, like, dinner trays.

James Petrigallo (37:24)

But like a heavy one, not a chintzy one. Her thick glasses were broken and laying on the floor next to her. So Gina tries to call 911 from her cell phone, but for some reason, she couldn't remember to hit send. This is how your brain. She used her cell phone 10 times on the way over hitting send every time. But your brain, when it goes into freakout mode.

Jimmy Wisman (37:48)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (37:48)

Can't even do the simplest tasks.

Jimmy Wisman (37:50)

It is fascinating because, like, I always have dreams about, like, not being able to operate my phone. But anytime I've ever been in a car accident or needed, like, police, I'm always panicked. I can't do it.

James Petrigallo (38:01)

It's so hard.

Jimmy Wisman (38:02)

Figure it out.

James Petrigallo (38:03)

Figure it out. So she couldn't figure it out. She threw her cell phone down because she thought it was broken or something. She just never hit send. So she grabs the landline because her mom has a landline and calls 91 1-advertor, starts telling her to do CPR on her. So she's like, okay, I gotta go over there and, you know, tend to her. So Gina says, I leaned over to check her pulse and that's when I saw the wounds. I saw a lot of blood. I saw her scalp and torn skin. I tried to describe it to 911, but I didn't want to scare my child. I told him to turn around and look away. Yeah. This is traumatic for a six year old to see grandma with her fucking skull cracked open. Wow. Not what you expect from grandma's house. So Gina said she flung off the wooden tray table that was on top of her mother and reached down to turn her over. She said, I wanted to help her, but I just knew she wasn't there anymore. Part of me knew she was gone. I didn't want to hurt her anymore. So she, like, didn't want to, like, start moving her around. So she said she studied the wounds of her mother and said she came to the realization that, quote, she didn't fall, someone did this to her, she said. And I thought they could still be here. I grabbed my children and ran out of the house as fast as I could. Absolutely. You have no idea. If you walked in in the middle of this and now they're gonna come kill you and your kids. So the police arrive and the medical people arrive and they say she was struck with the folding table while she was in a horizontal position.

Jimmy Wisman (39:33)

The laying down?

James Petrigallo (39:34)

Yeah, yeah, laying down. They opined that she died from blunt impact trauma to her skull and brain, having sustained a skull fracture to her right side that was likely fatal and caused by significant force with a table. Someone took a fucking heavy TV tray and bashed her skull in with it.

Jimmy Wisman (39:54)

Wow.

James Petrigallo (39:54)

Which is. We've never had that as a murder weapon, right?

Jimmy Wisman (39:57)

No.

James Petrigallo (39:57)

This week we have had Visine and a fucking tray table. Two things we've never had before. It's A banner week for small town murder. I'm telling you. That is. That is crazy. Yeah. The Murder Martini. The Murder Martini, as I named the episode call it. So she was killed by that? They said that the injuries she had to her head were similar to those of victims of a car accident. Wow. That's the force she was hit with.

Jimmy Wisman (40:25)

Yeah. That's hard.

James Petrigallo (40:26)

The medical examiner said her skull was cracked in mosaic fractures which requires significant force to create. And she said her brain shifted from the impact and caused bleeding and hemorrhaging. This is hard, man. There's a photo of her skull with. You can see exposed brain and it like it's horrifying and absolutely horrifying. They said that they asked how those are caused the mosaic features of the skull. She said the right side of the skull was hit with a heavy flat object with such force that it cracked her skull in a radial pattern similar to a mosaic tile design that expanded out to reach across the top of her head. That's how fucking hard she was hit with.

Jimmy Wisman (41:14)

A flat object all the way over. Yeah.

James Petrigallo (41:16)

It radiated. Wow. The inner structures of her skull were also found to be fractured from the blow. The evidence at the scene dictates to me what happened there. This is what the medical examiner saying. The home was well kept with some disarray, but there were no signs of struggle or forced entry. There was a glass lamp and picture frame still standing on the table right next to the victim. The home seemed untouched. Other than the victim's condition, this wasn't not a robbery gone wrong. There's one target in this house and it's her. That's it. Not even the lamp. Like nothing.

Jimmy Wisman (41:51)

Wow.

James Petrigallo (41:52)

So they said, can you possibly get fingerprints off the murder weapon? And they said, unfortunately there's a lot of blood all over the table. But they said wood is not a good material to get fingerprints from which.

Jimmy Wisman (42:06)

It's grainy. Yeah.

James Petrigallo (42:07)

It's not. It doesn't stick.

Jimmy Wisman (42:08)

The ridges will take away. Yeah.

James Petrigallo (42:10)

And also there's a moisture thing. It'll suck moisture in wood and things like that. So it's not a very good keeper of fingerprints. Yeah. Yeah. It'll take the oils from your skin and disperse them and it won't.

Jimmy Wisman (42:22)

The grains would disguise the. In the finger, but that too. It's considered absorbing the oil.

James Petrigallo (42:31)

Yeah, I've heard that too. And it's not an even surface either. Ever would. No matter how even it looks. It's not. So it's. It's hard. So chaos ensues at the house here. Obviously Yeah. A neighbor sees all the emergency vehicles and comes over. She takes the older son back to her house. So can you please take my son out of this, you know, murder scene? Possibly. Now, this lady next door takes the son and also calls up the phone booth bar.

Jimmy Wisman (43:02)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (43:03)

To tell Paul what's going on. For some reason, I don't know how the mother's neighbor knows that to call the phone booth bar for Paul, but she does. She says, you need to come to the house. So Paul arrives at the neighbor's house about 20 minutes later. So investigators are processing the crime scene and securing, you know, evidence for analysis. Like I said, no signs of forced entry. Nothing appears to be stolen whatsoever. And there's no evidence of any sexual assault or anything like that.

Jimmy Wisman (43:36)

Just a beating.

James Petrigallo (43:38)

Just. I'm mad at that lady's skull, period. So Gina and Paul go to the local police department with the detective here, and they call up the phone booth and confirm that he had worked there during the evening. Like, easy. Said, I was at work all night, you know, you guys. Where were you guys? Okay, no one was there. So they call up the phone booth and they said, yeah, no, Paul did have a shift tonight, but he did leave for, quote, a period of time when he claimed to be ill.

Jimmy Wisman (44:07)

Okay.

James Petrigallo (44:08)

So the detective went to the phone booth and got the videotape from the surveillance cameras in the parking lot to see exactly how long he left, when and how ill he was. It shows him arriving for work at 6:01. This is what kind of an asshole he is.

Jimmy Wisman (44:21)

He's late already.

James Petrigallo (44:22)

He's already late. He's gonna run in there, putting on his apron like, oh, yeah, no, no, like, get there five minutes early for a bartending shift. You fucking. He showed up late. Then he left the premises at 7:51pm and returned at 9. Useless bartender. Which is. So he was gone for an hour and nine minutes from the parking lot, which is plenty of time. The bar is six miles away from Elizabeth's house, by the way.

Jimmy Wisman (44:54)

Wow. So he went to work for an hour and a half and was like, I gotta murder. I gotta.

James Petrigallo (44:58)

Gotta go murder somebody. So was he sick, though? Maybe he was out there throwing up the whole time.

Jimmy Wisman (45:04)

Well, an hour and a half is long enough at work to find out whether or not you can hack it.

James Petrigallo (45:07)

For the rest of the day, whether you can get through the day or not. Yeah. So fellow employees and a patron of the bar said that he didn't appear to be ill that evening, but he claimed he was. They said he left the bar and they said when he returned, he was disheveled, sweaty, and had bloodshot eyes. He apologized for leaving in the middle of the shift, but the manager fired him anyway. So that's another job he just lost. Yeah. Couldn't even keep it at the phone booth. Now you'd say, why was he there when they called him then if he got fired? Because he got fired. And said, okay. And then went and sat down and ordered food. Who the fuck gets fired? And then is like, all right, I'll just patronize the joint. I'll be a customer instead. Never heard of that before.

Jimmy Wisman (45:50)

Take it out of my check.

James Petrigallo (45:52)

That's why. Take it out of my last check. So they said he appeared nervous, was pacing, and repeatedly went to the men's room, then left the bar after receiving a phone call, which was the phone call saying, come down here. Okay? Now they get Paul in there, and they advise him of his Miranda rights, and he denies killing. They said, did you kill her? And he said, no, of course not. That's crazy. He admitted his relationship with her was shitty, but he's like, I didn't. I never left the bar. And then they were like, we heard you left the bar. This is when they already know that he left the bar. And he says, well, I might have left for 20 minutes to get some air or something. Then they said, well, everyone says you were gone for more than an hour. And he says, okay, maybe I was gone for longer than 20 minutes. But I quote, absolutely never left the parking lot. They were like, but we have. Okay. And they have video leaving. They also collect his shoes and clothes and get DNA samples. He's pissed that they're even questioning him. He's very upset. Yeah. Two days after the murder, he asked Gina about having his regular visitation with the kids. Gina said. He said, when can I have my visitation? I said, my mother's just been killed. You can't be serious. He was mad. He was like, Sunday is my day with the boys. I don't care whose skull's been fucking mosaically fractured in the house. I'm coming over.

Jimmy Wisman (47:15)

I don't care if Grandma's dead.

James Petrigallo (47:17)

So September 29, 2004, five days later, they find out that his shoe tests positive for Elizabeth's blood in a DNA sample. He's got it on his shoe. So he's arrested and charged with murder. No one else has blood on their shoes. Yeah, it was quick. So five days. They just had to get the DNA back. They got it, and we're like, that's our guy. So they introduced forensic evidence that the blood on the shoe resulted from impact spatter and that he had been standing within 10ft of the blood source at the time. You know where a murderer would be?

Jimmy Wisman (47:48)

Oh, no.

James Petrigallo (47:51)

They also. In the arrest affidavit, they name a man. We'll talk about him later. Who? They claim. Who. Who claims he's had sex with Paul. And as a close friend of his. And says that Paul admitted to going to Elizabeth's home that night with the intention to kill her.

Jimmy Wisman (48:12)

He fucked a man after this?

James Petrigallo (48:14)

No, no, beforehand. But they're. They're still buddies. So when you fuck a man, you gotta. You know, you stick. Stick close. Afterwards, you tell him your secrets.

Jimmy Wisman (48:22)

All right.

James Petrigallo (48:24)

That's pretty wild. Here. We'll talk more about him and Joseph. Leo to genus brother said, I knew what he had done. I had a fairly strong suspicion of what he had done. Paul's mom couldn't feel less like that. Yeah, Paul's mom, Joan. I'll read this right from the paper. Quote, joan Foglia emerged yesterday from the worn trailer she shared with her son in Finn's mobile home park in Wayne and said her son did not commit the murder. Quote, my son is innocent. He didn't do any of this. I can't take this anymore. And I live in this shitty trailer. It's all bad. She said that she doubted that her son will ever get to. Or that she. Not even her son. That she said, I'll probably never get to see my grandchildren again because the Lots have money and we don't. That's. That they can keep the kids away from us. A neighbor of his who's known Paul for 10 years said he was shocked about this. He said, I heard about a month and a half ago that everything was good between him and his girlfriend. He said, quote, I thought they were getting married now at the county jail. Okay, There's a guy named Alan Casey who's a fellow inmate here. And, yeah, he said to this guy, he tells this guy that he went there with the intent of killing Elizabeth. He says he loved Gina and he loves his children, that he wanted to live with them. But he told the cellmate there that the only way for this to happen was for Lot to not be there. I can't move in there. I can't move into this nice house that I don't have to pay for if this woman is there.

Jimmy Wisman (49:59)

Yeah, I need. I need my. My fat pig's mother to be gone.

James Petrigallo (50:03)

Gotta happen. Fat pig of a. Mother in law. Future mother in law. So he also said that he knew that she'd be alone that night because he had earlier spoken to Gina and knew that she was going to a family dinner. And Gina does say that? Yes, she did tell him that earlier that night. So he told this cellmate that when he appeared in Elizabeth's home the night of the murder, she threatened to call the police on him because he showed up. So he said he, quote, snapped, pushed her to the ground and hit her with the folding table.

Jimmy Wisman (50:35)

God damn.

James Petrigallo (50:36)

Fuck. That part's probably true because she said.

Jimmy Wisman (50:40)

I'll call the cops.

James Petrigallo (50:42)

Get off my property. I'll call the cops. She said, your kids aren't here. There's no reason for you to be here. So now he's in jail awaiting trial. In 2005, he sues Gina for to see the kids more from jail. And a judge enters an order requiring Gina to, quote, supply three photos of the children to Paul's counsel, along with copies of progress reports and report cards every three months. So she's got to provide three new pictures and report cards.

Jimmy Wisman (51:16)

That's it?

James Petrigallo (51:16)

That's it. That's all she has to do. She does not comply with that order.

Jimmy Wisman (51:21)

Really?

James Petrigallo (51:22)

Yeah, she says, fuck him. So he files a motion to enforce it and find her in violation of his rights. Then the same judge entered a motion granting his. An order granting his motion saying that counsel fees and costs associated with Gina's non compliance with the court order shall be awarded to Paul in the event of any future failure to comply. So now it's going to cost her money. She complied with the court order for a period of time. There was going to cost her money. So 2008, the trial. Here comes. Okay, during the opening, the prosecutor says Elizabeth Lott came closer than any other person to revealing the secret. Now, the secret was he has a gay lover. That's the secret. It was a secret he was willing to kill to protect. That's why he went up there. Which is a stretch to say that. Honestly, I don't care. I'd say I don't give a shit why he went over there. Wanted to move in the house and couldn't. So there you go.

Jimmy Wisman (52:18)

The mother in law. I don't know. Liz already suspected he fucks dudes.

James Petrigallo (52:23)

That's what I mean. That's what she thought the whole time.

Jimmy Wisman (52:26)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (52:27)

He also, while he's in jail, he sends a handwritten two page letter to Shannon Karotley, who's a former girlfriend of Joseph Liotta, Gina's brother. Okay. They have a kid together in this letter, he states, please, Shannon, help me. You know, I didn't want this. I've repented with a contrite heart. I don't know what you've heard or believe, but I did not provoke this horrible thing that happened. Which is a weird way to put I didn't provoke this horrible thing in a very weird way.

Jimmy Wisman (52:58)

Well, I didn't provoke it. Who cares?

James Petrigallo (52:59)

It's very fucking weird Here. He said that she wouldn't allow in the letter, he went on to say that Elizabeth wouldn't allow him to sit at the family table during Sunday dinners. And this woman who was there said that Elizabeth often demeaned him in front of whoever was in the room, including his young son. She said she never saw Elizabeth physically threaten Paul and that Elizabeth arranged a visitation schedule and did not allow Paul at her home when Gina and the boys were not there. And that also Elizabeth never restricted Paul from seeing his sons outside of her property and said that she would never have let him in if he was alone there. She would have never let him in. Absolutely not.

Unknown (53:44)

If you're tired of endlessly scrolling through multiple streaming apps to find your favorite movies and shows, then it's time to simplify your entertainment with subscriptions on Prime Video. Now you can add over 100 subscriptions, including Macs, Apple TV and Paramount, all in one app. Imagine the convenience of accessing all your favorite streaming subscriptions in your Prime Video account with just one login and one password. No more app switching or forgotten credentials. From binge worthy original series to blockbuster movies and live sports, everything you love is at your fingertips. Streamline your streaming today. Check out add on subscriptions on Prime Video. Have you ever gotten a message out of the blue? Maybe you ignore them, or maybe you end up in conversation. Maybe they tell you about an amazing offer. I can really show you how to make some money. And maybe that gets you into a lot of trouble. But this isn't a story about people like you, the people receiving these messages. This is a story about the people behind the messages on the other end of the line. Thousands of them, working in a microcity built for scammers. From Wondery, the makers of of doctor Death and Kill List, comes Scam Factory, a new series about survival at the expense of others. Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Scam Factory early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

Matthew Scher (55:25)

A few miles from the glass spires of Midtown Atlanta lies the South River Forest. In 2021 and 2022, the woods became a home to activists from all over the country who gathered to stop the nearby construction of a massive new police training facility nicknamed Cop city.

James Petrigallo (55:44)

At approximately 9:00 this morning, as law enforcement was moving through various sectors of the property, an individual, without warning shot a Georgia State Patrol trooper.

Matthew Scher (55:55)

This is where We Came to the Forest. A story about resistance.

James Petrigallo (55:59)

The abolitionist mission isn't done until every prison is empty and shut down.

Matthew Scher (56:04)

Love and fellowship.

James Petrigallo (56:05)

It was probably the happiest I've ever.

Matthew Scher (56:07)

Been in my life and the lengths will go to protect the things we hold closest to our hearts. Follow We Came to the Forest on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of We Came to the Forest early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

James Petrigallo (56:25)

She said that she wrote in her he wrote in his letter that Elizabeth, quote, said and did really mean things. So just break her skull into 100 pieces then. That makes sense.

Jimmy Wisman (56:36)

Make a mosaic out of her head.

James Petrigallo (56:39)

Wow. I tried to leave. She came at me. He's claiming that his whole defense is self defense for a a sickly 67 year old woman. Meanwhile, he's a 6 foot one, 200 pound in shape male stripper. Yeah, he was afraid.

Jimmy Wisman (56:58)

Afraid for his life.

James Petrigallo (56:59)

Afraid for his life. He said that Gina wants me to go away for the rest of my life and it wasn't even my fault. Not my fault. He said. He obviously didn't plan the killing because afterwards he went to the police station for questioning with blood stains on his shoes. Wow. And the letter also includes several insults directed at the Liotta family as well. So there's that fat pigs and everything else. They also introduce his, quote, prior bad acts which are his neglect record, his criminal record, and the fact that he's a stripper. They lump into that as well, like he's not to be trusted. They said, quote, the fact that this defendant has neglected his son, has been unfaithful to his girlfriend, has been employed as a mail stripper, has amassed substantial credit card debt, and has forged his son's name on a credit card application. That said, during the opening. Now there is an objection and there's a big sidebar here citing the testimony that he was a, quote, male dancer and that's not even relevant here. The judge overruled the objection, finding the testimony to be proper introductory testimony to establish the nature of the relationship, and also ruled the testimony about the defendant calling and checking on Leota was relevant because it went to the issue that he was raising, which is the provocation defense. Okay. Gina testifies about the first time they met about Thanksgiving dinner. When asked about the way Paul dresses and his attitude at the dinner. This is the spit the food out, it's too salty dinner. There's more objections, and it's a. They have another big sidebar over that. The judge says this is the entire relationship that existed among these people since they met each other. The defense attorney says it's not what took place between the witness and the defendant. It's how Mrs. Lott reacted to what took place. Whether she was justified or not is not relevant. The passion and provocation goes to the action, not the reason for the action. It's an expression of Lott's dislike. That's relevant, not the reason for it. So they're saying, even if Elizabeth had all the reason in the world to hate this guy, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about when he came over. Could she have hated him and attacked him, period? Whether it's relevant to hate him isn't really. Or, you know, whatever.

Jimmy Wisman (59:20)

And in a fashion that was threatening.

James Petrigallo (59:22)

Yeah. The prosecutor said that the evidence is to the motive of the defendant and demonstrated why Lot hated him from the beginning. And the judge overrules the objection. They're gonna let all that in.

Jimmy Wisman (59:34)

Okay.

James Petrigallo (59:35)

Paul testifies on his own behalf, which. If you're gonna say an old lady attacked me and I had to kill her, you better have some words to back that up here.

Jimmy Wisman (59:43)

You better have some proof. Some shit. Show something.

James Petrigallo (59:46)

He said he was sick the night of the murder and left the phone booth, though he claimed it was with permission, when it wasn't, because he got fired. So he lies right there on the stand. He had spoken to Gina by phone, and she was upset. He believed it was due to the constant tension between her and her mother. And he thought that they had argued that day. It's all about you, though. Stupid. He decided to go to Elizabeth's home and speak with her about their problems. I'm going to lay it all on the line here. He said he saw her watching TV through the rear sliding door. He said he tapped on the door and Elizabeth let him in, which we know probably didn't happen right away. The back door is open all the time. He said the conversation deteriorated into a battery of insults where she called him names and he called her a witch. It's a fat pig witch. He then claimed that Elizabeth came at him swinging her arms. And she picked up the folding table and swung it at him. Ecw, she's going full fucking wrestling here. She cut a promo on him, picked up a table.

Jimmy Wisman (60:49)

She's gonna cut my forehead up.

James Petrigallo (60:50)

Holy shit. That is crazy. She said. He said that she swung it at him, hitting him in the left arm, causing a minor laceration, which, by the way, he didn't have at the bar or the police station. He had no laceration at all on him. He said he grabbed the table from her and hit her on the head. He said when she fell to the ground, he hit her again and then left the table on top of her.

Jimmy Wisman (61:14)

Only two times.

James Petrigallo (61:15)

Two times.

Jimmy Wisman (61:16)

This poor woman's head.

James Petrigallo (61:18)

It's the one good flat shot while she was laying down, is the one that really got it. Part of that probably is because her head was on the ground, too. So there was pressure on the other side. So he said that after she hit him with the table, I went into a blackout and a blur. Rage. He said he was enraged because Elizabeth told him he was, quote, not good enough for her daughter, his kids, his sons. And then if it was up to her, she'd take his kids away and he'd never see them again. Yeah, and then he killed her, which is, you know, that's proportionate.

Jimmy Wisman (61:52)

Suplexed me through light tubes, and it was crazy. Hit me with a barbed wire bat.

James Petrigallo (61:57)

And I just say, I said, we're turning these ropes to barbed wire and we're getting inside the cage. I'm tired of this shit.

Jimmy Wisman (62:02)

Unbelievable.

James Petrigallo (62:03)

So during cross examination, he acknowledged that he had given a number of different accounts of his activities on the night of the homicide to law enforcement authorities. He also admitted that in an attempt to have his bail lowered, he supplied a false certification in which he claimed the police had coerced him into providing a. For providing a formal statement immediately after arrest. He never indicated any of those prior statements, however, that Lott threatened him or hit him with the folding table. That's new information he just came out with at the trial. There was other evidence that inferentially challenged the credibility of his version of events. For example, when he was initially interviewed, they observed no injury to his arm, which they were looking for, shit like that. He also claimed that when he returned to the phone booth after the homicide, his frequent trips to the men's room were caused by nausea and his need to care for the cut. But surveillance videotape doesn't show any injury either. On cross examination here, the prosecutor extensively questions him about his debts and the Fact that he has lost five years and five jobs in five years as a mechanic. They say, do you remember applying for a credit card in your son's name? And he said, for Alex, it was just a joke.

Jimmy Wisman (63:11)

What's the joke?

James Petrigallo (63:12)

There's. What's the joke between me and the person who's going to read this credit application? Who are you joking with?

Jimmy Wisman (63:17)

What's the punchline?

James Petrigallo (63:19)

And they said it was a joke. And he said, I never used it. And they said it was a joke. It was a joke. You do something that affects your son's credit. And he said, I never used it. And they said, and you laugh about it? And he said, I didn't. I didn't know any better at the time. I put his name on it. I got. And they said, forged a credit card application. Forged your son's name. I didn't know any better at the time. It was sometime in the last three years this happened. He was in his 40s. The man was in his 40s. He didn't know. That was not. Okay.

Jimmy Wisman (63:52)

Grown a lot in the last three years.

James Petrigallo (63:54)

Oh, man. So then they questioned him extensively about his failure to pay child support. They also bring up the naked lady under the crib hiding in the bushes to attack the friend. Then they talk about his dancing. And here's where it comes okay. They say, you're dancing. Let's talk about that. You say dancing. We're not talking about the polka or the tango or anything. He says, no, I worked in Chippendales in New York, which was a big deal. And they said, right. And you also danced at Feathers, right? A gay club. He's just putting his top one up there. Yeah, you know, he's like a comic who just lists the best club he's ever played at, not all the other shitholes. And he said, one time I didn't like it and I quit. And they said, you used to strip for money? And he said, no, I worked out on a solo flex machine. But that was in, like, 1994. Yeah. Okay, it gets better. They said, no, you've danced. You took your clothes off for money. That's what you did for a living. And he went, oh, yeah? Yeah.

Jimmy Wisman (64:58)

What? Okay, you don't understand the solo flex.

James Petrigallo (65:03)

It gets better. The solo flex thing is going to get explained here. They asked if Elizabeth knew anything about his dancing, and he said he did. And then they said, and she knew that you stripped at gay clubs. And he said, no. And that was only twice. And I quit. He said, once before, now it's twice. We've now gone to two.

Jimmy Wisman (65:20)

It's just two weeks.

James Petrigallo (65:22)

Just two weeks. I just worked there two years, that's all. I just blew two guys. That's it. After a while, it's really going to get. They said, you know, that she suspected you were involved in more conduct than just taking your clothes off, right? And he said, I had no idea. And they said you didn't know? And he said. I said I had no idea. They said, she never called you a male whore before?

Jimmy Wisman (65:42)

Look, I had a Nordic track.

James Petrigallo (65:44)

I just. I was. Yeah. Stuff I was doing. She said. He said, no, she did not. So the judge permitted the prosecutor to inquire about his relationship with Brian Shell. That's the guy who gave the statement to the police. He claims he was Shell's, quote, personal trainer and that Shell, quote, offered him money to do body words. Okay, that's the. No, it's not. The court takes a break and the jury sends a note asking the judge, what the fuck is body worshiping? We don't know what that is. So the prosecutor, over the defendant's objection and contrary to the judge's earlier ruling limiting testimony, was permitted to continue with this line of questioning. They said when I was cross examining you before you had a sexual relationship with Brian Shell. Right? There was a sexual component to it. He said for him it was sexual, not me. Okay? That's the ultimate gay denial shit that I've ever heard in my life. He was doing the sucking. I was just sitting there. That is not. And I don't care. Suck all the cock you want. It doesn't fucking matter to me. I don't give a shit. But I'm just saying that's what dudes who are embarrassed about this thing. Oh, God. The prosecutor says, what does that mean for him? It was sexual. What are you talking about? And Paul says he got a sexual thrill out of watching me work out or touching my body. That's the solo flex. That's what he was doing. So the prosecutor said, that's what I'm trying to get at. There was sexual contact between you and Brian Shell and there was money exchanged. Right. And he says at the time there was. Yes. Which makes him a male whore. According to Elizabeth.

Jimmy Wisman (67:23)

He was a prostitute for sure. Yeah.

James Petrigallo (67:25)

So the state contends all this evidence is relevant to rebut an unfair and inaccurate attack against the victim and to provide proper framework for the jury to fully evaluate events leading up to the murder. They said it all falls under the Rule 404, exclusion of crimes. Wrongs or acts because the testimony only showed his behavior was boorish, indolent or self indulgent and not that he had a propensity to commit murder. So it shouldn't go along with that. In closing, the defense attorney says, this wasn't a murder. This isn't a murder. He said, this is a heat of passion. Manslaughter. Coming after years of ill treatment of Paul by this terrible woman who provoked him. She said, you heard him talk about how she swung a table at him in a rage. What's he supposed to do? She hit him first. I don't know. Don't be in her house is what you could do, I think. Yeah.

Jimmy Wisman (68:20)

I mean, just leave.

James Petrigallo (68:22)

So the verdict. Ten and a half hours of deliberation for this jury. Which seems like a lot, right, for this. Yeah.

Jimmy Wisman (68:28)

I mean, he left work and went back.

James Petrigallo (68:30)

Yeah. All we're deciding is manslaughter or murder. He admitted he did it, so it's just. Is it gonna be manslaughter or murder? It's six men and six women on the jury. They find him guilty of first degree murder.

Jimmy Wisman (68:45)

Yeah, yeah.

James Petrigallo (68:46)

Possession of a weapon, which is the fucking table, which is hilarious. A tray is a weapon in court with intent to use it unlawfully. Yeah. And criminal trespass as well. During sentencing, Joe, the brother there, Gina's brother, said, this man could not hold a job changing a tire. And she was paying for his two children. That one thing in the world that he couldn't change was my mother's mind. All that anger was focused on my mother's head.

Jimmy Wisman (69:15)

There is so much vitriol for an unemployed man.

James Petrigallo (69:18)

They fucking hate this. You fucking bum. You non tire changing, fucking dick out of your pants, bum.

Jimmy Wisman (69:26)

People hate. A man will not get a job.

James Petrigallo (69:29)

Especially these Jersey guineas. They're like, you don't even support your fucking kids. You're a bum. So they sentence him. You, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison with parole, but not for 30 years.

Jimmy Wisman (69:43)

That's good. Yeah.

James Petrigallo (69:44)

And he's like. He's like 47 or something, so it's a good amount. He's not gonna be doing much stripping when he gets out, put it that way. One of the jurors, by the way, said some people's opinions vary, but everyone recognized everyone else's motive and just wanted to make sure justice was carried out correctly. We knew our responsibility. We took it very seriously, and that caused us to be very careful in the decision made. So this guy said, too. This is his first time on a jury. And he said, I had no idea it was gonna be a murder case. I hope I don't have to do this ever again.

Jimmy Wisman (70:16)

That was. That was tough.

James Petrigallo (70:18)

2009, they continue to fight in family court here about the photographs. And this goes back and forth and we're not going to get into the details because we don't have time. 2010, he appeals this whole thing and it is on mainly the admission of extensive prior bad acts evidence. And the court's failure to provide a limiting instruction deprived defendant of his right to a fair trial. That says one thing. Now there's a. It's called the Caulfield test, I guess that you can tell if this should go in. And they say that this test requires that one, evidence of the other crime must be admissible as relevant to a material issue. Two, it must be similar in kind and reasonably close in time to the offense charged. Three, the evidence of the other crime must be clear and convincing. And the probative value of the evidence must not be outweighed by its apparent prejudice. Prejudice. Also, he has several points. Point two, trial judges refusal to more specifically instruct the jury. Point three, prosecutorial misconduct. Point for the court erred in excusing juror number seven after two days of deliberations in order to accommodate the jurors vacation plans. Point five, the trial court abused its discretion in sentencing him to a life term because a proper analysis of the aggravating factors does not support such a sentence. That's how it goes. They find the whole thing, they say, reversed.

Jimmy Wisman (71:42)

Wow.

James Petrigallo (71:43)

Shouldn't have let that shit in. That you let in, basically.

Jimmy Wisman (71:45)

I mean, the man killed a woman, went back to work, was fired, and then admitted a pot pie or some.

James Petrigallo (71:51)

Shit, had some chicken fingers and then fucking went to the police station. Blood on his shoes. With blood on his shoes.

Jimmy Wisman (71:57)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (71:59)

Gene is pissed.

Jimmy Wisman (72:00)

Yeah.

James Petrigallo (72:01)

Gina said those jurors did not convict him because he took a credit card out my son's name. They didn't convict him because he was a male stripper or a bum. They convicted him because he killed my mother. He can bring in whatever evidence he wants, but we can't put it into context. This is meddling by a court. And they don't know what. They don't care what they affect. They don't care what effect they have on people. They turn around and say, no, it's okay to blame the victim. That's what this decision does. Then he sues her again to see. To see the kids more. And that fails. 2012 new trial.

Jimmy Wisman (72:32)

Here we go.

James Petrigallo (72:33)

They say the defense attorney Says this new trial is going to be a lot shorter. They won't be able to paint the same picture of Paul. The fact that he was a male stripper is banned from the retrial. But it comes up again, though. It still comes up because that's. It has to. Yeah.

Jimmy Wisman (72:50)

Because you got to ask, what do you do for work, sir?

James Petrigallo (72:53)

That's all of that. What have you been doing? It just comes up. Why was she mad at you?

Jimmy Wisman (72:56)

Well, if you're fired all the time, how come you have money?

James Petrigallo (73:00)

How else? Yep. Gina said she tolerated verbal. That Paul. They asked him if Paul tolerated a lot of verbal abuse from Elizabeth. And the prosecutor objects to all of that. So there's a lot of objecting and things of that nature here. They said Gina testified the day before the murder happened, he and Gina had sex for the last time before they broke up.

Jimmy Wisman (73:25)

Wow.

James Petrigallo (73:26)

That was the. Oh, that was it. So that's what they were saying. That was the end of it right there. And Gina said, my discussion with the defendant was that I had had enough of splitting up. We decided we'd have sex one more time, then split up. He must be a great fuck. That's all this is. He has to be, right? Has to have a good dick on him, I think. Right.

Jimmy Wisman (73:44)

Unbelievable.

James Petrigallo (73:45)

Has to be fucking swinging a hammer. That's all I can imagine. So, in closing, the prosecutor said Paul had a clear mind and clear intent of murder that night. In all of those 12 years, he never once went to talk to her alone. The one time he did, he beats her to death. Nothing more clearly defines his intent that he went there to kill her. They said he knew that she was home alone with no car, knew that Gina and the children were at a dinner party away from the house on the first day of a new job. He leaves after an hour and drives over to the house, parks halfway up the driveway, walks around the back to an unlocked door. They said Paul was under control when he aimed that tray table at her head and chopped at her like an axe. After he did this, he didn't call 911. He didn't try to help her. He left her for dead and called Gina to ask how long she would be before she got home. Wow. Okay. The defense attorney said, this should be a passion provocation, manslaughter, 10 years tops. Come on. Quote, this is not a murder. This is a family tragedy.

Jimmy Wisman (74:46)

What, was it some balls to say, man, he left work for this. This is not a fail.

James Petrigallo (74:51)

And then lied all about it? Yeah, he didn't go I couldn't help it. Oh, my God. And yeah, he said, what was it? What was it that converted Paul from a person who would never do something to this into someone who did. We know what happened. Let's look at why. He suffered from verbal abuse and much more for years. Jesus Christ. She said, that was. This was the nature of her extreme hatred for him. This time. Verdict comes in two hours of deliberation. Fast this time. And guilty again.

Jimmy Wisman (75:21)

Okay, good.

James Petrigallo (75:22)

Sentencing. Gina's brother, by the way, chastised his lawyer, Paul's lawyer, for his conduct during this and called him a monkey at one point. You can't say that, which is hilarious. I think you have fucking dumb monkey. It was a white guy too. Not a racial component. He just called him a monkey. Gina said, how could you do this to these little boys? When your retrial came up and I had to sit your 6 year old son down and explain to him what his father had done before he heard it from somewhere else. This is what you did to these boys. You don't care about us. You only care about yourself. I truly feel you're without a conscience, Paul. What I say doesn't matter. You've only thought of yourself anyways. He said, my mother was right about you. That's hilarious.

Jimmy Wisman (76:07)

That stings to hear.

James Petrigallo (76:08)

This justice is a cold substitute for what you took from me. I'm haunted. All of my thoughts lead me back to the horror you created. You destroyed everything. Wow. Whenever I. Jesus Christ. My best memory of my mother was when I was four years old. I was watching her get ready to go out. She pulled her hair back and put it up in a braid. Now whenever I do my hair and remember that, I brace myself because I know the image of her lying on the floor with her hair soaked in blood and her skull open is coming. Then his son gets up there on the stand, his teenage son, and said, the day I was told you were the killer of my grandmother, I died. I can't remember my grandmother's voice. What I do remember, seeing my grandmother under a wooden table and my mother screaming, you gave up the right to know me when you killed my grandmother. I hope you stay in prison till you die. And he also called him a killer, a bastard and a child's life destroyer. Paul says, quote, this is. He's got a. Whoa. He said, I didn't want to go back to prison for life because I didn't go there to do that to your mom. Talking to Gina. I should have never done that to your mom and let my Son, find her like that. Then he says to Gina, I think about you every day. Whoa. I never meant for this to happen. I loved you, Gina. I loved your. I loved our family. I don't know what happened to me that night. The judge says she suffered repeated blows. It was a vicious attack. I cannot accept this defendant's claim that he did not mean to kill her. You, sir, may fuck off. Life again. 30 years before parole. Yeah, he appeals all of that, and obviously that doesn't matter.

Jimmy Wisman (77:44)

I don't like this trial either.

James Petrigallo (77:46)

Nope, they said no. Keep on keeping on, fuckhead. They actually said that the brutal circumstances surrounding the victim's suffering justified the life sentence. Virginia right now appears to be practicing family law in New Jersey. So she looks to be thriving and doing great. Good for her, because she's been through a lot and we feel bad for her. By the way, don't take it out on this guy. There's a LinkedIn profile, a guy named Paul Foglia, and he's the assistant vice president at Excess Casualty, which is the worst fucking thing it could be, because that was an Excess casualty. Yeah, that is bad shit.

Jimmy Wisman (78:18)

Is that insurance? I imagine.

James Petrigallo (78:20)

I think it's insurance. So there you go. That is Wantage Township unjust. Very quickly, run through the end here. Definitely follow us on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Smalltown Pot. On Facebook. Definitely shut up. Cangive me murder.com? get your tickets for live shows. Chicago, St. Louis, you're up next. In May. A lot of them are selling out. Get your tickets right goddamn now. Shut up and give me murder dot com. Also get your merch while you're on there. Patreon.com crimeinsports is where you get all of your bonus material. $5 or above will get you hundreds of episodes immediately of shit you've never heard before. And the new stuff every other week. One Crime in sports, one Small Town Murder. You get it all this week. Crime and Sports disaster, potpourri, industrial shit, hot air balloons. You name it, we'll do it. Amusement park for Small Town Murder. We're gonna talk about when psychics actually succeeded in finding bodies and stuff like that. We'll talk all about that. Patreon.com CrimeanSports and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show. You wanna follow us on social media, shout out to givememurder.com has a list of drop down menus. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad free now. By joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey.

Unknown (79:57)

Hey everybody, we have some exciting news that we want to share. If you want to go on an adventure with Generation Y, we'd love for you to join us. January 26th through the 30th, 2026, we'll be sailing from Miami to the Bahamas on Wonder's first ever True Crime cruise aboard the Norwegian Joy. Aaron and I will be there to chat, hang out, dive into all things true crime. And we're thrilled to be joined by some familiar voices in the true crime podcasting world. Sirte and Hannah from Red Handed, Sashi and Sarah from Scamfluencers and Carl Miller from Kill List. Super excited to hang out with them too. We got some cool activities, interactive mysteries we can solve, testing our forensic skills with a blood spatter expert and so much more. So for some sun fun and just the right amount of mystery solving, come join us. If you'd like to know more and secure your spot, visit exhibitccruise.com for pre sale information.