#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania

Summary

Small Town Murder Episode #585: Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania

Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Release Date: April 10, 2025

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Introduction

In episode #585 of Small Town Murder, hosts James Pietragallo and Jimmie Whisman delve deep into the sinister events surrounding Kingston Township, Pennsylvania. This episode, titled "Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard," unravels the complex web of crimes committed by Hugo Selensky, the mysterious disappearance and murders of Michael Krakowski and Tammy Fassett, and the subsequent discovery of multiple bodies on Selensky's property.

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Background: Michael Krakowski's Upstanding Life

Michael Jason Krakowski Jr., a licensed pharmacist in Kingston Township, Pennsylvania, epitomized the American dream. By his mid-thirties, he owned his pharmacy, had a stable family with his wife Kim, and was highly respected in the community.

James Pietragallo [21:34]: "He is killing it. Just having a great life. I mean, if this is what you want, if you want to settle down, have a nice business and a nice family, sure."

Despite his seemingly perfect life, cracks began to appear when Michael started engaging in illegal activities.

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Descent into Crime: The Onset of Illicit Activities

In late 1999, after securing his own pharmacy, Michael began selling controlled substances illegally, including OxyContin and Lorcet, amassing an estimated $3 million from these activities. This marked the beginning of his downfall.

Jimmie Whisman [28:02]: "Get out."

As Michael's illicit dealings grew, his personal life also unraveled. He engaged in extramarital affairs, leading to his wife's divorce.

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Hugo Selensky: The Troubled Friend

Hugo Marcus Selensky, born in 1974, had a tumultuous history marked by youthful misdemeanors and a series of incarcerations. Upon his release in January 2001, Hugo struggled to reintegrate into society, eventually forming a dangerous alliance with Michael Krakowski.

James Pietregallo [08:00]: "This is in Luzerne County, Lucerne County. Like the dairy product with a Z. Oh, L, U, Z, E, R, N, E."

Hugo's propensity for violence and disregard for societal norms made him a volatile presence.

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The Murders: Krakowski and Fassett

On May 3, 2002, Hugo Selensky and his accomplice Paul Weekly brutally murdered Michael Krakowski and his girlfriend Tammy Fassett. The murders were executed with a shotgun, leading to their untimely deaths. The bodies were concealed on Hugo's property, creating a secret graveyard.

James Pietragallo [63:24]: "It takes very little one real good pull, and that's pretty much it."

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Discovery and Investigation

The murders remained unsolved until June 2003, when investigators discovered the concealed bodies amidst a routine search of Hugo's property. This revelation sparked widespread panic and led to the arrest of Hugo Selensky.

Jimmie Whisman [20:57]: "We think he's doing something criminally twisted, though, considering he was buying a house with someone else's money."

With the discovery of the bodies, law enforcement linked Hugo to multiple unsolved cases, indicating a possible serial killer.

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The Trial: Evidence and Verdict

During the trial, prosecutors presented overwhelming evidence against Hugo, including testimonies from key witnesses like Paul Weekly, who detailed the gruesome events leading to the murders. Despite the damning evidence, Hugo maintained his innocence throughout the proceedings.

James Pietragallo [130:57]: "We've got no idea who the fifth body was and we have no idea where the bone fragments are for up to seven more people."

Ultimately, the jury found Hugo guilty on most charges, sentencing him to multiple life terms plus additional years for related crimes.

James Pietragallo [159:36]: "Ensuring that what the judge said, that Zelensky will, quote, never again walk the streets of this commonwealth or this community."

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Community Reactions and Hugo's Infamy

Hugo Selensky's case shook Kingston Township to its core. Surprisingly, Hugo garnered a bizarre cult-like following, with some residents expressing admiration for his charisma despite his heinous crimes.

James Pietragallo [131:22]: "People obsessed with Zelensky and the case have even branded yugoists on one of the many Internet chat rooms created in his honor."

This unsettling phenomenon highlights the complex nature of true crime fandom and the allure of the dark and mysterious.

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Additional Mysteries: Unsolved Cases and Speculations

The discovery of multiple bodies on Hugo's property raised questions about other unsolved cases in the region. One such case involved Felicia Thomas, a young woman who vanished around the time of Hugo's downfall. Allegations surfaced linking Hugo and his associates to her disappearance, but concrete evidence remains elusive.

Jimmie Whisman [167:14]: "So the focus has been on these wooded areas and forests punctuated by vast swamplands and muddy creeks."

The intertwining of multiple crimes paints a broader picture of Hugo's potential involvement in numerous atrocities beyond those for which he was convicted.

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Conclusion: The Dark Legacy of Kingston Township

Episode #585 of Small Town Murder offers a chilling exploration of how one individual's descent into darkness can devastate an entire community. Through meticulous research and compelling storytelling, James and Jimmie shed light on the complex layers of crime, loyalty, and the human psyche's capacity for both good and evil.

Whether you're a true crime aficionado or a casual listener, this episode serves as a stark reminder of the hidden darkness that can lurk in the most unsuspecting places.

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Notable Quotes:

• James Petregallo [21:34]: "He is killing it. Just having a great life. I mean, if this is what you want, if you want to settle down, have a nice business and a nice family, sure."

• Jimmie Whisman [28:02]: "Get out."

• James Petregallo [63:24]: "It takes very little one real good pull, and that's pretty much it."

• James Petregallo [130:57]: "We've got no idea who the fifth body was and we have no idea where the bone fragments are for up to seven more people."

• James Petregallo [131:22]: "People obsessed with Zelensky and the case have even branded yugoists on one of the many Internet chat rooms created in his honor."

---

Small Town Murder continues to captivate listeners with its blend of in-depth research and engaging storytelling, making each episode a must-listen for true crime enthusiasts.

Transcript

[James Petregallo]

Hey, everybody. Justin, take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a delicious dog food Ollie. If your dog could talk, they'd want Ollie. They'd ask you for Ollie. That's what I'm talking about. It's a fresh, whole food diet. It's not just delicious, it can add like years to your puppy's life. Yeah, you want that good, healthy food. That's more tail wagging. And this is, this is real food. Like, this stuff looks good. I'd eat it. Yeah, that's how I was. Like, this looks pretty good. I might sit down with you on the floor and we could share.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That is nice to be able to pop something down on the floor for him that looks like something that you'd put over rice or whatever and eat it yourself.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean. Looks great. All you need to do, you fill out their 32nd quiz that Ollie has for you. They create a customized meal plan based on your puppy's weight and activity level and health info in general. There you get expert recommendations. Dogs deserve the best and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.comstm to tell them all about your dog and use code STM to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a clean bull guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's o l l I-e.com STM and enter code STM to get 60% off your first box.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack sponsor. IQ Bar is the better for you. Plant protein based snacks made with brain boosting nutrients to refuel, nourish and satisfy hunger without the sugar crash.

[Jimmy Wissman]

These things are amazing. My daughter loves them. And it's so hard to find a snack that a child will eat in the first place. These have nutrients that are good for your brain. She takes them to her volleyball game and feeds them to her teammates. And they all love them. They have so many different flavors. They're amazing.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. IQ bars. Totally free from gluten, dairy, soy GMOs and artificial sweeteners. For a natural snack, try any of their nine to delicious flavors including mint chocolate chip, chocolate sea salt, banana nut, toasted coconut chip, lemon, blueberry and peanut butter chip. And right now, IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ Bar products. Plus get free shipping. To get your 20% off, text small town to 64,000. Text small town to 64,000. That's small town. One word to 64,000. Message and data rates apply. See terms for details.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

Hi, this is Steve Buscemi. You know the actor. Well, now I'm an actor and podcast host. From Piece of Work Entertainment and Campside Media in association with Olive Productions, comes Big Time, an Apple original podcast. Each episode follows the story of one misfit with big dreams who isn't afraid to bend a few rules or take.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A shortcut to get there.

[James Petregallo]

Well, who steals bees? I was duped. I shoot you in the leg. This is big time. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts this week in Kingston Township, Pennsylvania. What begins as a simple search for a missing pharmacist turns into the discovery of a makeshift graveyard with as many as 12 bodies, many of them burned and smashed. But will it be enough to convict this suspected serial killer? Welcome to Small Town Mur. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm Jimmy Wissman.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today. You've made a good decision because this is a crazy episode. Let me tell you something. It's wild stuff.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Congratulating on it.

[James Petregallo]

Congratulations. Well, you know what? Why not? They're here, so let's congratulate them for being smart. You should do that. Like when someone sits you at a restaurant, they should go, congratulations, good choice. And then hand you a menu. That's good. Before we get started, definitely head over to shut upandgivememurder.com that is where you will find all the tickets for the live shows. Everything is there, especially 4:19, April 19th. It's our 4:20 virtual live show.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

And it's available for two weeks. After that you can buy it, you can watch it 100 times, you can do whatever you want with it in that two weeks. And it is going to be just like a regular live show, except anywhere in the world with Internet. You can be watching right from the comfort of your own home. So we're very excited about that. I have crazy smoking apparatus to scare the hell out of Jimmy. That's going to be fun. And then also get your tickets for May 18, Chicago at the Riviera. Be there with us. It's going to be a lot of fun. The night before in St. Louis is all sold out already. So Chicago is your best bet. Midwest. Get in there. That is shutupandgivemerder.com tickets for the rest of the year are in there as well. And you want to get those early because a lot of these places are sold out now. San Diego, Grand Rapids, Madison, Portland. There's a lot of sellouts. So get in there, get your tickets right now. You definitely want Patreon.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, you do.

[James Petregallo]

Let's say you've listened to all the other shows, crime and sports. You're all caught up on the Evel Knievel series. We've been doing your stupid opinions. You've been laughing your ass off at that. You Definitely want Patreon. Patreon.comCrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you are going to get just a giant back catalog of hundreds of episodes you've never heard before and new ones every other week. One crime in sp. It's one small town murder and you my friends, get it all. So this week, what you're going to get for crime and sports, we're going to talk about some fraternity hazing incidents. Not really sports related, but a lot of the fraternity guys play sports. So you know what we're going to call it? Sports. We'll find somebody in there that was on a lacrosse team or something, I'm sure. Then for small town murder, we are going to talk about the Karen Reed case. That is the Boston woman who is accused again going through her second trial of killing her cop boyfriend. And it is just a wild trial. And I'm gonna get you, we're gonna get you all caught up to speed before the retrial happens here this month. So that's gonna be a lot of fun character that whole. There's about a hundred interesting characters in that entire thing. All those cops are wow, it's wild stuff. So that's patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well, which is this one, Jimmy will mispronounce your name horribly. So that said, disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody. So I'm telling you now there's going to be jokes and people are going to die. That's how this works the show. Trust us one thing, it is all true. Everything here, there's nothing is embellished for comedic effect or anything like that. None of that stuff happens here. Now you might say how do you mix murder and comedy? Very easily. You don't make fun of the victims or the victims families.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Why, James?

[James Petregallo]

Because we're assholes. But, but we're not scumbags See how that works? It works out pretty good here. Now, if you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, you might not like the show, but I'm telling you, there's plenty of jokes to be made around the murder especially. I think I can get away with this. That's a dumb thought.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Ridiculous.

[James Petregallo]

It's a terrible thought. So all that kind of thing. Anyway, for the rest of you, though, you want to hear a great story and a great show we have coming up for you, I think it's time to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs. What do you say, everybody? And let's all shout, Shut up and give me murder. All right, let's go on a trip, everybody. Let's do this. We are going to Pennsylvania this week. We're going to Kingston Township, Pennsylvania. This is in Kingston before, in Rhode island, which this town is named after. So there you go. It all connects. I'm telling you, man, when I saw that, I was like, oh, my God. It all connects. Look at that. This is in northeastern Pennsylvania. It's about a half hour outside of Scranton. Okay, so this is kind of back in the mountains. This isn't Philly. This isn't Pittsburgh.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Not necessarily.

[James Petregallo]

That's rural.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What would you call that?

[James Petregallo]

Rural?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is it industrial?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, rural, I would call this. Yeah, it is. I mean, Scranton's got some industry, old industrial stuff, but this is. They call this Back Mountain. That's the name of this area.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is that right?

[James Petregallo]

Back Mountain. So it is different kind of place than that. Buddy, let me tell you something.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Those are two bad words to put together.

[James Petregallo]

Back Mountain. That sounds scary. Definitely. You hear the, you know, the banjos, and you're like, this is not good. Back Mountain.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And local people, when they hear Back Mountain, that's like Colorado people saying Western Slope. Like, it's not good people over there. It's frightening.

[James Petregallo]

We'll find out here. It's about 30 minutes to Scranton, about 2 hours and 15 minutes to Philadelphia, and about 2 hours and 25 minutes to Washington Borough, which was our last episode in Pennsylvania, which was the Moronic Murders, which was one of the craziest. It's the Moronic Murders because it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. These people were nuts. This is in Luzerne County, Lucerne County. Like the dairy product with a Z. Oh, L, U, Z, E, R, N, E. So not a dairy product like that. I think that's the C. Not sure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Safeway store brand is Lucerne.

[James Petregallo]

There you go. But that's with a C, I think. Different. The motto here is the gateway to the back mountain. That's the motto of the town. So they're proud of. You want to get the taint to the back. It's really the taint. It leads you to the promised land here. So a little bit of history here. Kingston Township was one of the original townships formed by the Susquehanna Land Company of Connecticut in 1790. This is old. Yeah. The township is named after Kingston, Rhode island and was originally called Kingstown. Like Kingstown, they just dropped the W. The township was downsized later when whole regions were stripped away to form new municipalities. So used to be a lot bigger place. Some reviews of this town. Here's four stars in the largest part. Kingston Township is a great place to grow up and settle down. Those in between, however, may find it to be too slow paced and quiet and seek the excitement of distance. Everybody says nice place to either grow up or retire. That's kind of the way everybody keeps talking about.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. It's your beginning or your end, not the middle.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. If you're 26 and out looking for like mates, this isn't the place you want to be. Probably. Yeah. Four stars here. Sunoco gas station is right down the road from me. Well, brag. Brag much? Asshole. Jesus. Aren't you cool?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Those suckers with the scorpions in them and a bag of twisters, what else are you going to do?

[James Petregallo]

There's a Sunoco like an eighth of a mile from my house I never thought to brag about. Was just rebuilt and is up to date. Wow. This is just a review for Sunoco. I visit there almost every day because they carry every essential needed. That's the whole review that one probably does because it's probably in a rural area. Yeah, they're probably smart to do that. Yeah. Cereal and all that kind of shit. Yeah, that's it. Three stars here. There are not many opportunities here. The people who live here are all very wealthy, but there's not a lot of options for the up and coming generations. I didn't really get the wealthy thing here. I don't really get that there's a Sunoco man where you get your essentials I don't know about. I mean I'm sure there are some wealthy people that own large swats of land and shit, but that's population. Population 7,076 people here. So pretty small. Way more females than males. 52.7% women here. So that's way above the out of whack. It's usually like 50.1. Median age is higher than it is in the rest of the country. It's about 48 here, which is 10 years higher than the rest of the land here. About 56% married. Very few people divorced, very few people single with children. Oh, yeah, I don't know what it is. You just get your plot of land and you're going to stay here and that's that. You're going to stay married even if you hate each other. So race of this town, 96.8% white, 1.1% black, 1.3% Asian, 0.5% Hispanic. The unemployment rate here is skyrocketing here compared to the rest of the country. It's 9.6%, which is really high for a spot. I think it's just rural. I mean, I think that's why they're so jacked about the Sunoco.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, Sunoco can only hire so many people.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, there's one guy standing there behind the counter. That's all they got here. Median household income here is $75,285 a year, which is good money, slightly above the national average. But I wouldn't say it's all rich people here. That's not what I would say. Cost of living here, 100 being regular. Average here it's 80.6. So pretty low compared to the rest of the country.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Average money too.

[James Petregallo]

That's great. Yeah. And the housing cost is low. Median home cost here, $181,000.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That'll make you feel like you're rich.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean. You'd feel rich if you're. Yeah, it's pretty good. So maybe everybody that's listening right now really wants to move here. Just in case you do, we have for you the Kingston Township, Pennsylvania real estate report. Average two bedroom rental here goes for about $1,030 a month, which is way lower. A couple hundred under the national average. Here's a three bedroom, one bath, 1125 square foot house, little starter house. This is a small house, 1100 square feet. It's on 0.36 acres, so not a huge lot. Part of an acre on the ground. Not crammed in though. Yeah, that's what I mean. You're not crammed in. You got a yard. It doesn't look good. The roof has growth on it, which is never a good sign.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like moss or like trees.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, no, nothing with a trunk. But definitely some foliage up there that probably shouldn't be. I don't think that's a good Sign here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Something has taken root up there and that's weird.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. There are rooms that have no floor. Like it's just all torn up. The floor is a really weird, like a flagstone that looks like it should be like an outside path. It's a strange house. Really weird house. 119,000 bucks though. So it's a bit high. It seems like it, I guess. But yeah, you can probably do some stuff to it, I guess. Here's a four bedroom, two bath, 2420 square feet. So that's not bad. You got a couple of kids spread out. It's a good size house. 0.47 acres. So almost a half acre. Good sized plot. This house is just 70s. The outside of it is like wood. The inside of it is an insane 70s wood. The kitchen has definitely not been touched since 1983. It's got like that old fridge in it where you're like, oh man, that fridge is old as shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Knobs on the microwave.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it does. It's weird. Backyard's nice. It's okay. But it is $335,000 and it just had a price cut of 15,000.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, then it's gonna go down further before it sells.

[James Petregallo]

I was gonna say, I think this thing. I think you could wait on this thing or at least lowball these people. Here's a five bedroom, six bath, T bowl for each and every B hole.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Surplus of Those T bowls.

[James Petregallo]

11,775 square feet. I can't even picture what that is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't even know what that is.

[James Petregallo]

It's like four big houses is what that is. That's four good sized houses on 11.92 acres. It's just humongous. I don't even know you would get lost in this house. It looks like a hotel. There's a library in it. And what I mean is, I don't mean a room with some shelves. I mean a hallway that you're walking down that's huge with like aisles on each side of like a fucking library.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Dewey decimal system is in play.

[James Petregallo]

It looks like a Borders in this place. It's the weirdest. Like borders from the 90s. It's really cool. 1,999,000 bucks for that though, which seems a little high, I would say.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I do like it and I still am in love with it. I just wish I had enough money.

[James Petregallo]

To buy shit like that. Can we bring it down a notch on the price possibly?

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's a bit much.

[James Petregallo]

Things to do here. Well, there's the Edwardsville Pierogi festival. I've been wondering when that was. I've been looking for. It's on my calendar, but I couldn't find what date to put it on. This is the festival for them, 11th annual. And if you don't know what a pierogi is, it is a Polish ravioli would be the best way to describe it. It's good. Pierogies are good. They're fine. I mean, it's a Polish ravioli. How bad could it be? They put sausage and shit and it's good noodles and meat.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Let's go.

[James Petregallo]

So, I mean, it's going to be decent. So they say it's the biggest and best food festival to start your summer. Over 80 vendors expected, which seems like too many pierogies for.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What are you selling?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. They say they have live entertainment all weekend, but they're not listing what it is, so that could be anything. Pony rides. That's nice for the kids. A petting zoo, A pierogi parade. Got me. I don't know. Do we dress up like pierogies? Do we carry pots full of pierogies as we walk down, down the street and pelt people with double yellow? Do we toss pierogies out to the children as we ride by on a float? What are we doing here? And a pierogi cook off as well. Who can cook the pierogies the fastest? Whose water boils the hardest?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is it best tasting or fastest?

[James Petregallo]

Who knows?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Biggest?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. That's all the information we have on the pierogi festival, which really sucks because I want so much more information about that. I really want to know. And then there is. This is wild here. It's called American Soldier, a tribute to Toby Keith. Bringing the spirit and music of Toby Keith to life. Capturing his essence and entertain. Capturing his essence. You could just pour a Bud Light on someone's head. You've captured his essence on a Mexican day. There you go. Yeah, there you go. That's the essence with captivating performance that brings his music and energy to life. Apparently this the guy playing it is a guy named Dwayne Terry. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Big Toby Keith fan.

[James Petregallo]

Well, he played with Toby for a number of years. I think he was in his band.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No one gives a shit.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. This is the best part. This is the most authentic and nationally recognized tribute to Toby Keith in the U.S. oh.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

All the thousands of tributes to Toby Keith that we put on on a yearly basis. This is the best one. Apparently. I don't know.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I Couldn't be turned off harder.

[James Petregallo]

Man, this is horrible because I mean, usually on, what is it? August 14th, Toby Keith Day that we all know of or whatever the fuck. I don't know. There's a lot of them, most authentic.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know what the fuck that's supposed to be.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. It says they have other bands too. From 245 to 330 they have the Sweet Biscuit Band that plays 90s and classic rock. Then you have Alexis Bradford, who is the 2022 SARE talent show winner from Mainsburg, Pennsylvania.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's her credit.

[James Petregallo]

I think that's her prize for winning that as you get to perform from 3:45 to 4:30 at the Toby Keith tribute show, you get to open for.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A guy that knew Toby Keith.

[James Petregallo]

How about that? 4:45-5:30, Jacob Gilpin, a 2024 winner of Maple Festival's vocal talent. And he's the best country music guy in Vermont, I assume that is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And then I'll tell you about a guy that wants new Toby D.

[James Petregallo]

And then Chris Eckert, who?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Do you know who this is?

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a real country singer.

[James Petregallo]

Chris Eckert says country. It says torch singer to arson investigator to one man band from Wells. But no, you don't know who that is. He's got like a harmonica around his neck and he's got cymbals on his knees, you know what I mean? He's got like a fucking accordion strapped to his chest just in case he needs that. This is my favorite. At the bottom of their webpage it says final comments. All sales are final. No refunds. You watch this shit and you want a refund. Tough. And the pre Sale tickets are $35 for the track, seats, 30 for the bleachers. That's the cheapest. $30 to see this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This is trash.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. That said crime rate. What we are interested in this story here. Property crime is less than half the national average in this town. So pretty safe. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about 1/3 under the national average. So this is great. It seems like a real nice place where nothing crazy happens. And we are going to talk about.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Except for Toby Keith's friend.

[James Petregallo]

Except for Toby Keith's friend. And a shitload of murder that we have to talk about here. Wow. We got a lot. Okay, let's do this. Let's jump in and talk about a guy named Michael Jason Kurkowski Jr. K e r k o w s K I. So Michael, Jason Krakowski, everybody's. A lot of people's names in this have ski on the end of it and there's a pierogi festival. I feel like this is a highly Polish area. It has to be. So now Michael has a wife named Kim and he's a licensed pharmacist.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Good, Good money and he's doing great. He had his. Owned his own pharmacy, had a nice home, a wife and two children, all before he was 35. So, I mean, unbelievable, dude. Life set. You're set. Just enjoy cruise control, count those fucking pills and enjoy. What else do you need?

[Jimmy Wissman]

The money, bud. You're doing great.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, you're doing terrific. This is great.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What year is this?

[James Petregallo]

This is 2000. Late 90s is when he opens the pharmacy. We'll go through the years here and we'll go through his life a little bit, but that's how he ends up. He's known as a devoted father, a dedicated son and a businessman held in high esteem by the community. Couldn't be better. So obviously he's going to be on our show. Yeah, yeah, clearly. So his wife and others said he was very upstanding and everything like that. A woman who worked with him at a pharmacy earlier in the 80s said he was wonderful. He was kind. He was the kind of kid anyone would want to take home with them. Meaning when he was like a teenager.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Nice kid, which sounds really creepy. That sounds like something that. Like a compliment that Puff Daddy would give us. Up and coming singer, A lot of talent. Type of guy you'd want to take home with you for a while. Have him live in your house when he's 12 for some reason, make him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Do bad things for you.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Jesus Christ. So when he was about 16, he began working at a pharmacy as a pharmacy technician. The woman who worked with him said his family was not well to do. They were middle class. He had to work for the things he wanted, I'm sure for part of his schooling as well. So when he worked at this pharmacy, that's where he met his future wife, Kim, who worked at the pharmacy in high school. So that's. They ended up hooking up there. Michael graduated from Lake Lehman high school in 1983 and went to Temple University in Philly. Wow. So that's a good. Very good school. Yeah. So now Kim, the girl he met that he liked when they were both teenagers, she ended up. They didn't stay together. He went to college, she did her thing, she got married and Had a son with somebody else and then got divorced. So that became. Made her available again. Michael graduated from Temple in 1988 and was a licensed pharmacist in Pennsylvania. On August 16, 1988, Michael, he worked at the Trucks. Trucksville Pharmacy. Trucksville is nearby, by the way, in Trucksville. And later at the CVS pharmacy in Dallas, Pennsylvania.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Is that right?

[James Petregallo]

There's a Dallas. There's a Dallas right around here, too. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Eagles hate the Cowboys.

[James Petregallo]

Very confusing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, it's from there.

[James Petregallo]

So. You sons of bitches. You fucking hick bastards coming from the back mountain. So in 1989, he met up with Kim again because she came to the CVS in Dallas just to fill out a prescription, have a prescription filled. She didn't even know he worked there. And he was like, I know you. You're the chick from the pharmacy. And she was like, yeah, you're the dude from the pharmacy. And there you go. So by 1992, they're engaged.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And in November of 92, they signed a contract to build a $150,000 home, which was a good, good amount of money back then. Sure. Real good. At 647 Pritchard Road in Hunlock Creek. They got married on April 9, 1994, and then they had a son named Tyler on September 25, 1996. They'll have another son named Connor on May 6, 1999. So he is killing it. Just having a great life. I mean, if this is what you want, if you want to settle down, have a nice business and a nice family, sure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, it sounds like, you know, the old timey American dream, you know, quote unquote. Seems like this would be it. Right.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And it's like a nice, fortuitous, serendipitous meeting, too, where she's just there to get her. To get her.

[James Petregallo]

He didn't go stalking her or anything. Yeah. She just needed to get rid of her chlamydia. And then he happened to be there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He cleared up her yeasty.

[James Petregallo]

And then she was like, listen, now I know, I know she's up to date. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's got all her shots.

[James Petregallo]

She's had a couple of things. So they lived a comfortable but average lifestyle. They weren't lavish. They didn't spend a lot of money or anything like that. And maybe that's saving up for later or college funds or I don't know what they're doing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Careful.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. A friend of theirs said they never took vacations. They didn't drive expensive cars. They had a nice upper middle class home, but they didn't live an extravagant lifestyle by any stretch. So that's just the way it is. Now. In March 1999, Michael and Kim enter into a franchise agreement with the Medicine shop. And that's ppe like an old timey. The Medicine Medicine Shoppie Pharmacy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's interesting.

[James Petregallo]

On State Route 29 in Eaton Township, which is in Wyoming County, Pennsylvania. There's a Dallas, there's a Wyoming County. The whole thing's too much.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Kingston. God damn it.

[James Petregallo]

It's all just too much, man named after somewhere else. It's just too much.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Pennsylvania. None of us like it here.

[James Petregallo]

I was so confused in the beginning of putting this all together. I'm like, wait, he was in Dallas. Fuck. And then I was like, no, this Dallas. Because I put like on my notes, move to Texas. And then I'm like, no, he didn't. Apparently he's in Pennsylvania. Scratch that. This is a very confusing episode to put together.

[Jimmy Wissman]

San Francisco, Pennsylvania.

[James Petregallo]

It really started with that Las Vegas. In Las Vegas, Pennsylvania. I don't understand it. So now Kim is part owner of this business, but she has no involvement with day to day operations. She's not a pharmacist, so.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Brilliant.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. It's just those two are on it because they're married. Apparently though, they start to have some problems here, as we'll talk about in 2001. 2000. 2001. Basically right after, right when he signs this lease to have his own little pharmacy, that's when things start to go off the rails for him. Yeah. Apparently there's a quote from one of their friends that said a year prior to their separation, he would not even allow her in the medicine shop. Wasn't even allowed in the store. The few times she tried to enter, he chased her out. He did not want her involved. He wanted to run everything on his own. Get out. But I need some. No, go. I'm just here for toothpaste. Shut up. Go. I'll bring it home.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Get out.

[James Petregallo]

I'll bring it later. So, yeah, the thing is this whole business and the reason he went from being this open, honest, normal guy to being sort of weird and closed off is because he's doing some shit that is not above board in this pharmacy. He is selling all sorts of painkillers to people. He's one of these guys. He's one of the.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And this is. I mean, Oxycontin didn't come out till the mid-90s and he is selling it in 99. Like it's fucking candy. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Allowing people to doctor shop there.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, absolutely. No, he's doctor shit. He's just giving. He's writing, he's giving out drugs. He's just selling people drugs. It's fucking crazy. So it's Lor set and oxycontin are the big ones that he's doing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Which are painkillers and opiates. And I don't know if lorcet's an opiate, but I assume it is. It is OxyContin. I know it. So they didn't. He's also got a mistress on the side. So you don't want your wife coming in when you got strange trim that might be walking through there every once in a while.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Drugs and getting pussy. Get out.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I was gonna say I got a drug deal lined up. I got my side fucking piece coming over. I got a lot going on here. I'll bring the toothpaste home.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

So apparently everybody says it's just greedy that he's why he's doing this. Which is very weird because they still don't live a lavish lifestyle. It's not like he's, you know, he bought a fucking Bentley or he, you know, like bought himself a Porsche and he's going to Atlantic City on the weekends and it's. None of that's going on. He's still.

[Jimmy Wissman]

But it might feel good to not have that opulent lifestyle. But like it's. I'm capable of having it. That would be kind of cool, I guess.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. It's just so weird to have an upper middle class lifestyle and then do a bunch of illegal shit to make more money to still live the same lifestyle. It doesn't make any sense. I don't. I don't understand what the point of that is. So he would fill out, he filled false prescriptions that he knew were false for tens of thousands of pills that. That's what police ended up documenting. So who knows what he actually did? Yeah, they. They also suspect he filled untold thousands of others that they just couldn't track. So they estimate that his crime netted him more than $3 million in sales of these drugs. Netted him. Not gross net. That's after pills paid for. So I guess he began selling these drugs to people as early as November 99, which is like two months after he got his own pharmacy. Which means he's always wanted to do this and he finally could now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He had the dream.

[James Petregallo]

It would take you a while to figure that out if you were going to just start doing It, Yeah, I.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Mean he probably at working for someone else was like, I could fucking make so much money if I had my own shit going on. And they didn't have so much paperwork tracking this.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he worked for cvs, which I'm sure is right, you know, pretty, pretty multi shrewd. It's a conglomerate. Yeah, I'm sure they keep track of shit there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So court records show that he began this as early as November 99. Like I said, a woman named Shirley Richter entered the pharmacy to fill a prescription for Lorset and her address was not listed in court records. They say later her authorities, she told the authorities she obtained thousands of Lorset pills from Michael all the way up until September of 2000. So he was just filling her shit. He filled the prescriptions under the guise that they were refills of an original legitimate prescription that she once obtained. That's how he did it. So he used the same scheme with other people who would travel to his store from all around. People would drive for hours to come here because.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, because he's doing it.

[James Petregallo]

You're selling drugs. That's what people do. This show, Small Town Murder is sponsored by BetterHelp Therapy. Number one. Can feel like it's a big investment because it's a, it can be very expensive over time. But your state of mind is just as important as your physical health. If you had a physical problem, you wouldn't be going, well, I don't know, I'm gonna go to the doctor and they're gonna send a bill. You gotta get it taken care of. So yeah, you know, traditional in person therapy can cost anywhere from 100 to $250 a session, which that'll add up very fast. But BetterHelp better helps different. BetterHelp online therapy. You can save on average up to 50% per session. That's incredible. This is an affordable way to do this. Your mental health is worth it and better help will put it in reach for you here. And we are huge proponents of therapy because I know for a fact here I have my partner sitting here next to me because of therapy, because it's helped him with a lot of problems and just give him the tools to cope. And that's what therapy can do for you as well. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com smalltown murder today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp h e l p.com smalltown murder now back to the show. Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our safest sponsor, Simplisafe. The days are getting longer. We got longer daylight hours, which means you might be spending more time away from your house, which gives burglars more time to rob your house. That's what happens here. FBI crime data shows that break ins are more likely during daylight hours than at night, actually, which you don't think of that. But you need to protect your home with Simplisafe's proactive security that help stop threats before they even happen. We love SimpleLife because, number one, they're great. The alarms are great. The cameras are high quality. I love the. I love the fact that they can tell somebody and yell at them to go away from your house and they can call the cops. Right? And it's easy to install. I was so worried when we first got it. I was like, I'm not gonna know how to do this. It's super easy. They have installation if you need it. But you can do it. If we can do it, you can do it. Visit simplisafe.com/small to claim 50% off a new system with professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's Simplisafe. S I M p l I safe.com small there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

The investigation started in September of 2000 when a person arrested for using a forged prescription said, well, I know a guy who's selling pills out of a pharmacy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And that was that. So once, once, you know, somebody rats on him. So an undercover state trooper made several buys from Michael in September and October of 2000. They continued to investigate the case for several months, interviewing people who purchased drugs from him. So they had a giant, I mean, they tracked thousands of tens of thousands of pills. On April 20, 2001, they raided his pharmacy, seizing thousands of pills and records detailing transactions and all sorts of investigations start now. This is a big deal. So, yeah, they estimate he made, between the illegal drugs and the insurance fraud, about 3 million bucks he cleared from all this. They say that the prosecutor says they believe his sole intent in buying the pharmacy was to sell drugs illegally.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There it is.

[James Petregallo]

Just that's the only reason he was doing it. They said that if he worked for cvs too easy to catch. This prosecutor said, I think his ambition was to get there, do this for several years, make big money, then quit. He figured in a small town like Tuck Hannock he could get away with it. He was wrong. I would think you'd have a much better chance of getting away with it in a big city.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, I got news for you guys. He did it to the tune of $3 million. He did all right.

[James Petregallo]

He did fine. He should have stopped.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

I would honestly think in a big city, it'd be easier to get away with this because there's probably a hundred other people doing it, so it might fall. You're probably the only illegal pill pharmacy in the whole county. I would assume otherwise. So you're kind of drawing attention to yourself here. So he's charged with three counts of distribution. Well, many more counts. But he'll later plea to three counts of distribution of a controlled substance by a practitioner. And he'll later plead guilty to insurance fraud and reckless endangerment in connection with a man who overdosed and died on prescriptions he'd supplied.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, shit.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's not good. It's a lot going on here. People who knew him describe him as affable, laid back down to earth. One guy said, I never knew Michael to go on any big trips or even talk about fancy stuff or even be envious of people who had it. I don't have any idea why he got involved in something like that. I've been racking my brain, but it just doesn't make any sense. Yeah, it's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What do you do it for? The thrill?

[James Petregallo]

It's. I don't get it. That's what I mean, I don't understand what it is, except that I'm. I've led such a. Such a. Just middle of the road, fucking, you know, just lifestyle that is not. Has no deviation from the norm. And now I want to be a different person.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. I mean, maybe it's not even out.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, it's just coming out. When he got busted, I mean, it's 2001. It came out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So that's not why. That's not why he did it.

[James Petregallo]

I can't. I don't understand it. It makes no sense. Now, his sister Maria is also a pharmacist, and she said she was sick when she learned about all this. She said he was very outgoing and personal. It's so confusing. I don't understand what happened. Apparently something was missing in his life, I guess. Yeah. He's also having an affair at the same time, too. So he just wants to have another life where he's like a cool guy who has affairs and deals drugs and.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, he. Yeah, he got his life together so early and was always busy being whatever it is that you're supposed to be.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, imagine being.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Get to be it.

[James Petregallo]

No, imagine being so successful so early that you're bored with it. Imagine that you're just like, this is boring.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's gotta be a. Gotta be on the other side of the law.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Just, you know, we did that when we were 16, you know, like, got over it. But this guy never had it. Maybe. So I guess he befriended. He ends up making a friend here. Michael does, or Krakowski here, as we'll talk about while he's awaiting trial. And this friend of his is gonna give him advice on his criminal case. This is not a lawyer, by the way.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay, great. He met him in jail.

[James Petregallo]

He's a guy who just got out of federal prison for seven years. We'll talk about him in a minute.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Perfect.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, great. That's who you. I mean, I guess he knows the legal system.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's out.

[James Petregallo]

That's how Lori Valo said she's qualified to represent herself, by the way. She said, well, I've been through so much court stuff between family courts because she'd been divorced fucking three times. And you know, my other murder trial that I think I know court by now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I think I can handle it.

[James Petregallo]

The ultimate Dunning Kruger effect person right there. Like. Well, I went to court a couple times, so I know everything there is to know about court. It's that idiot JC Anthony's pulling that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Shit, talking about, she's been in criminal law since 2012. It's like, baby, for the wrong reason.

[James Petregallo]

You've been in true crime since 2012. I don't know if you've been in criminal law. Those are very different places. So anyway, Mike, Michael was leading an interesting life, to say the least, before this all happened. Now, his estranged wife Kim, and his former girlfriend, who he was having an affair with, are first cousins. So he's having an affair with his wife's first cousin. Okay. Also his wife's first cousin, who he had an affair with his godmother to their son.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You can't. Thank God, Mommy.

[James Petregallo]

They really are taking this back mountain shit very seriously. There's cousins involved, and it's all a mess. So family trees are crossing. Things are weird.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You can't bang your wife's family man.

[James Petregallo]

No, not good. The worst thing you could do, probably. So Kim files for divorce on April 30th. I don't know if it was the banging her cousin or the federal offenses that did it, but one of the.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Two could just be banging anybody else.

[James Petregallo]

There's a lot of reasons wow. Brought her to the courthouse. She's granted custody of the children. You know, he's a drug dealing philanderer. It's not really a good.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who fucks the family?

[James Petregallo]

Who fucks the kid's godmother? Yeah. So Kim's lawyer said, quote, she told me this was not the man that she married and that she loved. It was like a separate life that he was leading. Absolutely.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well done.

[James Petregallo]

So he is given visitation rights every other weekend, and on certain holidays, he's out on bail after he gets arrested here. Their divorce is going on through 2001. 2002 takes a while here. Now he's got a new girlfriend named Tammy Fassett. F A S S E T T. That's his new girlfriend that he's hanging out. Got himself a Tammy out there. So like we said, he is convicted of these crimes. He pleads guilty to all of these. Defrauding Medicare to, you know, defrauding insurance, unauthorized sale of controlled substances. And he is set for sentencing on May 14, 2002. But he's out on bail until his sentencing. They're like, he's a pharmacist. Where's he going? You know, he's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, so he used to be a pharmacist. He's not gonna get to pharmacy anymore.

[James Petregallo]

I would think that we're keeping all pills away from him. He's lost his pill counting stick. Isn't that what they do? They have a stick? I always say popsicle stick, tongue depressor. Yeah. That's all they do, I think. I don't know. They do know a lot, though, from what I understand.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Great, man.

[James Petregallo]

From what I understand, like, if you want to know, like, if this drug is okay with this drug, don't ask your doctor, ask a pharmacist. They'll know way better. That's. I've actually heard doctors say that before.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

So that's interesting.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now at the window, they'll just be like, eat with this one. This one's fine. And don't take them all together. Get out of here.

[James Petregallo]

They know exactly what's going on with all these bills. So that's impressive. I guess you don't know how have to necessarily know the exact structure of the human foot and bones to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You just know the structure of this pill. And it's all built into the word. Whatever the word is that it's all pieces. That's what makes the word. It's weird.

[James Petregallo]

So Kim, the wife, estranged wife, at this point, she said she never knew her husband was selling drugs illegally. She never had any idea she was excluded from the family finances and she wasn't really allowed to visit the pharmacy. She said she thought he was just fucking around behind her back. That's why she wasn't allowed to visit, which she was right about. Yeah, but he also has a drug dealing empire going on here. She said, I had no idea what he was doing. No clue. No clue. No clue. Not one ever. I think she has no clue. She has a clue.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She knew anything at all?

[James Petregallo]

Not sure. So she said that he. You. Her husband seemed very. Oh, I'm sorry. No, this is the other guy. Yes. She said that her husband has that friend that we talked about and his name is Hugo Szalinski. And she said that Hugo Szalinski seemed very interested in her husband's legal case and would attend his hearings and give him advice and all this type of shit. So we'll talk about Hugo Szelensky here. Hugo Selenski is S E L E N S K I so this is a little Polish. Helping Polish out here. That's what we do here. Now, he comes from a family. Here's Ron and Ruth Zelensky. I think Ron is actually Hugo's stepfather, but he adopted him, so gave him his name and all that. Now there's seven kids total here. By the way, they got seven kids, Ruth and Ron here. Now the one we're going to talk about, Michael Krakowski's friend is Hugo Marcus Solinsky. He's born in 1974. Always had problems. Just a problem child from the BE. From fucking jump. He had juvenile court when he was a kid, that kind of thing. Always in trouble, in and out of jail since he was 12. One of those kids, just a complete up. So his half brother, who is Ron Solinsky Jr. Said that relatives always poked fun at him because Hugo didn't ever hunt. He refused to go hunting with them, was squeamish around deer carcasses and wouldn't get on a boat because he was afraid of water. So they said he's generally. Yeah, he's not an outdoorsy boy. They call him a scaredy cat and all that kind of shit. And his brother said he was afraid to drown. So, like, we all aren't, you know, it helps. Learning to swim is a good reason.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We swim because I fucking hate to drown.

[James Petregallo]

I'm pretty confident if I'm in water, I'm not going to drown because I'll.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Swim, but I'm still afraid of it.

[James Petregallo]

I don't want to drown. When I see the ocean, I Go. I'm not going in there. That's huge. That'll suck me right in. Never be found.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a bit too much.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. A pool. Great. Not afraid of that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Some lakes even. Shit.

[James Petregallo]

Upscar. Yeah. Fuck yeah. You never know. So they said Hugo was tough when he needed to be though. And we'll find out what that means later. In 1993, Hugo's about 19 and he gets a DUI. So this is in addition to his many, many, many legal problems. But this is one of the first ones that he really has as an adult here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Then if the liquid's in the bottle, he's not afraid to drown from that, huh?

[James Petregallo]

No, no, no, no. He'll take that right end and gargling. So then in June 1994, Hugo and another man slipped some ski masks on over their head and entered the bank branch on North river street in, I believe it was in Kingston or in Dallas, I believe this was. They drove there in a stolen Chevy Citation.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hell yeah.

[James Petregallo]

The best getaway car ever.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Join the chase and they'll all be confused.

[James Petregallo]

I'll be. Put the little light on top. We got the 70s hubcaps. It'll work. So it might have been one of those little citations from the 80s, though, those little fuckers there. And he'll later abandon that in Kingston. It's a silver Citation here. But they go into this bank and rob this fucking bank. And it's pretty crazy. It was the Melon bank in Plains Township. They said they were still searching. They know right away, after it happens, they know Hugo's one of the guys, but they were searching for the second suspect here. It's pretty crazy. So he basically is wanted for a week. They can't find him after he robs the bank here. And then finally they find him and they arrested him. And it was a five day search. His mother said, I've been a basket case since Friday. That's what Ruth said. She was happy. They went to his house and his stepdad or his adopted dad and one of their seven children were watching Beauty and the Beast in their house there. And they said all of a sudden more than a dozen people rushed through the door. Cops came in pounding and Ron said, I nearly had a heart attack. He said it was our FBI agents with search warrants and Dallas Township police searching through the house. They dug in the cookie jar, rummaged through the clothes, scoured the washing machine. They were hoping to find stolen money, but they didn't. But what they did find inside the washing machine, agitator they discovered dye. That's the same dye that bank tellers use in a band in dye packs. That's not good. They tried to literally wash the money.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

We'll launder it, it's fine. That is fucking wild. So they also seize six rounds of ammunition, a rock, and a stack of telephone bills. I don't know what the rock could possibly have evidentiary value for in a bank robbery. They didn't throw it through a front window of the bank. And then I don't get it. So. And telephone bills, Telephone bills that might be between, you know, to get correspondence between the. But I don't get a rock. Also they found $4,000 in 50 and $100 bills, which probably came from the bank. So then they said they're still searching for their second suspect, described as a 6 foot 4, 230 pound man. And they said that man, the Selensky family was, said they was renting their Wyoming home, Wyoming county home, since May and now he took off. So they know who it is they're looking for now in court here, Selensky meets with FBI agents before his trial and decides to cooperate with authorities. Here he goes with his dad. His dad tells the media he's cooperating with them, he's trying to do what's right and help them arrest the other man. So that's what he did. They said that. And his mom was there and his mom said she doesn't want to believe her oldest child was involved in anything because they're also charging him and talking about him being involved in a string of burglaries as well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the fuck, man?

[James Petregallo]

She's like, that's crazy. And of the bank robbery, she says, well, we know he did it, but Hugo's just, he's not a big guy, he's a skinny guy. And he got coerced by the big guy. That's what happened. The guy forced a ski mask on his head and forced a shotgun into his hand.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Peer pressure to rob a bank.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, you know how that goes. How many times have I pressured you into robbing a bank with me? It's happened so many times. You just go along with it now. You just go along with it now. You don't even, you don't even argue.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that's evident.

[James Petregallo]

Shit. Now any bank robbed by a 6 foot 4 guy and a 5 foot 8 guy is going to be really bad for us. So he said, she said, Hugo isn't perfect and he's had his problems, but it's not like him to Rob a bank. It's not like him, you know, it's.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Not like anybody until they do it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And then she said, this is killing the family. Hugo's not a bad person. It's just not fair. He robbed a bank.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What we're doing to your family, sure.

[James Petregallo]

Christ. He is going to be sentenced to. You, sir, may fuck off. Seven years in prison, just about little shy of that for his armed robbery. It's about six years and 10 months. And he's also ordered to serve two years of supervised release before his sentence. Before a sentencing thing here. A brief hearing was held on Selensky's objection to a statement and presentence report prepared by probation officers that he brandished a weapon during the robbery. He takes exception to that. They found though, the judge found, and the court found that the statement was accurate. After a bank teller said, yeah, this motherfucker, they came in and robbed me. It was him and Earl Nagels as co defendant, a 31 year old. And they entered the bank and they made off with $9,777 in cash.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow. So he, he still had almost all his cut.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he had just about all his got. After they fled the bank, that's when the dye pack burst and stained most of the cash with red dye. So at that point, Zelensky tried to remove the die from four to $5,000 of the stolen cash by running it through his mother's washing machine. And he admits to that. So they found the die in the agitator and all that kind of shit. So that's why he cooperated, because he was kind of fucked here. So yeah, he's gonna serve a bunch of time. And they try to say during his sentencing, he says that, he says, I'm very sorry. And then his attorney says, this is a young man with a very serious alcohol problem. That's what happened here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, the booze.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's the booze that does it. Because I get drunk and I start looking for banks to rob. It happens all the time. First of all, you shouldn't be drunk. Really. Anytime a bank's open for business, you probably shouldn't be hammered.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Number one, I've treated a lot of my issues with booze and never once have I considered doing anything more illegal than going to get more booze while I was drunk.

[James Petregallo]

Going to get fucking filibertos.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Even though you shouldn't be driving. So she said that the lawyer said she realized and that Hugo realized that he needs to get help for his problem. When he surrendered to the FBI. So you know, he's here now. The assistant U.S. attorney said, quote, I don't buy it. She even says that a bank employee. Because they keep saying that he didn't intend to scare anybody. He was just trying to get the money.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He just wanted the money. And boo.

[James Petregallo]

But the prosecutor said, that's funny. Why did he rack a shotgun round when in front of a cashier's face. In front of a clerk. Teller's face. Yeah. So that's interesting. And so anyway, they end up reducing his sentence on the bank robbery to 22 months. Months from a range of 51 to 63 months. However, let the mandatory 60 month sentence on the firearm charge in place. Left that in place. And in addition, the judge ordered zelensky to pay $100 special assessment, a fee charged of convicted defendants. So that's what he's going to get. So altogether, 82 months in federal prison is what he gets here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Now in prison, he is stabbed during a prison fight at one point.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And he wouldn't. People in prison said he wouldn't take shit from anybody. He knew he was in an environment that he needed to be, you know, fighting. He was quick to come to the aid of friends as well and people in prison like that. His dad even said when something happened, he would stand up for himself. But he wasn't violent. So he's not violent. That's what we know. Okay. Now, January 2001 is when Hugo is released from prison. This is right around the time that year is when Kurkowski gets busted for what he's doing. So he returned to his home and struggled with being out of jail because he was in there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Not easy.

[James Petregallo]

From 20 to 26, 27 too. That's a lot of your formative years there. Sure. Yeah. So he comes home to live with his family. And I guess they said he didn't get along with his father at this point with Ron, his lone ally was his mother. And she got to the point where she couldn't intervene because she's dead. She died while she's in. While he was in prison. So his lone ally is gone. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Now he's at home and he's butts head with his. With his dad, who's his stepfather. But adopted.

[James Petregallo]

Adopted, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And he probably throws in his face a lot. You just got out of prison, you fucking moron.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. And Ron said that this was a woman who would walk on hot coals for him. Meaning for. For Hugo. But she died. And he also said, quote, while she lived for her son seeing her firstborn in prison. Issue jumpsuit is what partially killed her. Ron says. Yep, she lost it. And I could see the change. She had cancer, though. I don't think that can cause cancer.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Or orange jumpsuits cause cancer.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Wow. You know what? That's. That's some science we need to look into. So apparently he and Ron and Hugo didn't get along about anything. Anything. And I guess Ron never forgave him for the bank robbery because it was embarrassing and he's embarrassing for the family. And I guess Ron was a bank manager.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yes. So he was like, you can't do that. You can't. So after about two months, he ends up moving out of the house. Hugo does. It's not working out at all. He kind of sleeps on some couches for a while, does all of that shit. Doesn't really hang out with his family. Shows up at his grandmother's 80th birthday party and shit like that, but otherwise he's away from the family. Ron said Hugo was offered every opportunity in this house that everyone else was. He just got mixed up when he was 14 and wanted a wild way of life. Yeah. He's got a girlfriend named Christina Strom, by the way, at this point as well. So he's going to end up living with her and they're going to try to have a little life together. So now this is the time when he moves out and everything and he's couch surfing and all that. That's when he hooks up with Krakowski and starts giving him legal advice. Kurkowski ended up paying hugo somewhere between 60 and $80,000, which was supposed to be for some kind of legal assistance he's providing for Krakowski, but he's not a lawyer, so you could just give that money to a lawyer who would actually do that, but apparently he's giving it to this guy for help with. I don't even know what. Hugo spent the money that he obtained from Krakowski and including putting a down payment on a house on Mount Olivet Road in Kingston Township.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So that's. He's going to use this money to literally. To buy a house.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Start a family, build a life.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He's got this girlfriend with Christina Strom. It's going to be purchased in the name of her. In Christina's name. That's the house. So they closed on the purchase of the property, Hugo and Christina, on April 30, 2002, but they did not have the funds to cover the closing costs, which is about ten Grand. So that's. That's what they're trying to figure out. Now on May 1st, 2002. That is about. What is that? April 30th is the closing. On May 1st, Hugo's brother gives away a shotgun. This is Ron Jr. He gives his 16 gauge shotgun. That is so weird that that keeps. 16 gauge keeps coming up when it's not the most common shotgun by any stretch. Yeah, weird. And it came up in multiple episodes in the last month. He gives this shotgun to a guy named Patrick Russin, which is a Russian without an a Russian. He thought. Now, Ron said he thought this shotgun was going to be used to shoot skunks that were running wild on Hugo's property. Just. It's a fucking skunk farm up there. Just all skunks. Which is the. That's the worst thing you could have is a skunk infestation. Horrifying.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I have a rat infant infestation.

[James Petregallo]

At least rats don't squirt me with stinky liquid if I go outside to throw my garbage out after dark. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Out of their asshole. That's fucked up, man.

[James Petregallo]

Get your asshole juice off of me. So Russon came to Ron Jr. S house in Dallas asking to borrow the shotgun for skunks. So, yeah, he said the skunks keep spraying these dogs, so we got to shoot these skunks. All right, now remember, May 14, 2002 is Krakowski's sentencing date. So he's been getting all this legal advice and everything like that. And then May 14, 2002, the date comes and he does not show up for sentencing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Oh, no, he's him. Tammy's no long. They're both gone.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tammy and he are on the run.

[James Petregallo]

On the fucking lamb, it looks like here. So, yeah, they take off. They're not going to go. I'm not going down for this shit, man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He hasn't even been sentenced and told how long he's going, but he knows he's going.

[James Petregallo]

So he's right. He knows he's going to prison. Yeah. And apparently he was supposed to pick his kids up from school. That is how we knew he was missing before that even happened, before. He didn't show up for sentencing because his ex wife said that she remembers this day because she had left a voicemail on his cell phone saying, quote, you better be in a car accident. You better be stuck on the side of the road somewhere, you son of a bitch bastard. Screaming and yelling at him. So apparently his parents, Geraldine and Michael Krakowski Sr. Here knew that their son was involved in these criminal acts and apparently hid a significant amount of his ill gotten gains at their home. The parents ended up. After he disappears, the parents take $40,000 in cash from the house and go and pay their son's bail bondsman because he didn't show up for sentencing. So now they owe him this money. So rather than lose their house or whatever they put up, they took his $40,000 that he had left behind and they use it for that now, May 4, 2002. So that is, you know, this is. We're going back 10 days before. There's a deposit here. There's a bank teller who says that Hugo deposit $9,900 deposited, okay? Which is just below where you start looking at the transactions into Heather Strom's checking account. That's on a Saturday, May 4, here. And explain that this was. She's going to be close on a house with this. 479 Mount Olivet Road is the address that they're closing on. They said that strom only had $400.46 in her checking account prior to the deposit. So there we go. And then there was a check drawn from her account that Monday for $10,079.50, which I assume is the closing cost. Now how did the fuck did they get 10 grand?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, where'd that come from?

[James Petregallo]

Well, apparently, remember Patrick Russin, the guy with the shotgun? There's another guy here named Paul Weekly. W E A K L E Y Paul Weekly. He is a guy that Hugo met in federal prison. Now, apparently those two started cooking up a plan. They were buddies in prison and they start cooking up a plan that they are gonna rob Krakowski. He's got tons of cash all over his house. He's a drug dealer hiding cash. So anyway, they, Hugo and Paul Weakley went to Kurkowski's house on May 3, 2002. The day before the $10,000 deposit. They hang out for a while, drink a beer for a bit, you know, hang. Just normal social shit. Michael and Tammy are both there and it's, you know, Hugo and Paul. Out of nowhere, Hugo pulls out a gun and orders Michael and Tammy to lay on the floor. Okay? He binds them with flex ties and duct tape. Oh, no, duct tape over their eyes, mind you. And then apparently they both beat Michael Krakowski with a rolling pin into telling them where the money was. Where's the money? Where's the money? So they're beating him. He apparently said there's two bags of cash of approximately $60,000 that he has here in his house. And he said his father has another $60,000 cash, too, of his. So that's where cash is at that point. Paul Weekly says that Hugo pulled the zip tie around Kurkowski's neck until he died.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Strangled him with a fucking zip tie. Which is absolutely brutal. That is fucking brutal.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And lazy. Like, that's.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know what I mean? That is the worst.

[James Petregallo]

It takes very little one real good pull, and that's pretty much it. And then you just walk away. That's. That's a lazy strangulation there. So he tied it so hard that he stopped breathing and he died. Then he went over and killed Tammy the same way.

[Jimmy Wissman]

God.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus. She's just the girlfriend. She isn't involved in any of this shit. So anyway, he was able to pay his clothing closing costs after that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And now several days after this, but before they actually moved into the property, he asked the property owner, the seller of the house, to leave the property for a day. Just leave. I gotta have the house to myself for a day.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I gotta do some.

[James Petregallo]

I gotta sage the place, whatever. Yeah, I'm having a priest in. I don't know what the fuck he's doing. So that's what he was told. The guy left for a day and that was that. Yeah. Hugo also contacted Kurkowski's parents, contacted Michael's parents, who they believed that he had taken off and ran away. And he said, yeah. He called him and said, fuck, I don't know where he is either. Do you guys know where he is? And they said, no.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He said something about 60 grand there.

[James Petregallo]

That's the thing here. Now, over the next couple of months here, he basically convinces, Hugo, convinces Kurkowski's father to give him the $60,000 that Krakowski gave his father with the promise that this is for Kurkowski's new lawyers, who are going to try to help him avoid going to prison for running away from his sentencing. Hey, everybody, Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our fashionable stylish friends over at Quint's. Spring's coming up. People want to travel. You've been in the house all winter. You want to get out, you want to do things. Things. Vacation season's here, road season for us is here. And we're gonna treat ourselves to some of the little luxe upgrades that we deserve with Quince's high quality travel essentials at a fair price, like lightweight shirts and shorts from $30 pants. For any occasions and comfortable lounge sets. Also, you can get premium luggage options and durable duffel bags to carry it all. And the best part, all Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We like quints a lot. I've ordered stuff. I have a leather jacket. I have sunglasses. Jimmy's got pants. And I'm looking for more stuff because we gotta travel.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So they got great flannels too.

[James Petregallo]

They. They do. And I do need travel stuff too. So we need this for the road. Quince is gonna help us out for the road. And for your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quints. Go to quince.com smalltown murder for 365 day route returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com smalltown murder to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com smalltown murder now back to the show. Hey everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit more about Chime. Life is full of extra fees. Boy, oh boy, it's. They're everywhere. Everything you buy, there's fees. Every buy a concert ticket or an airline ticket or anything like that. Fees, fees, fees, games, you name it. We're trying to make progress in life and we're trying to go forward. And then these fees hit you and you go backwards. You need Chime. Chime is a checking account that makes financial progress easier. You can move forward with this with features like no maintenance fees, fee, free overdraft up to $200 or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Can't beat it. You can learn [e-mail] Smalltown Murder this Chime is great stuff. You always need a little help. Somebody's always coming up a little short every once in a while. It happens to people. Unexpected things come up. Not only fees that Chime won't charge you, but you never know. You blow a tire out, your car breaks down. You never know when you need a few extra bucks and you might need it early. Make progress toward a better financial future with Chime. Open your account in two minutes at Chime. That's Chime.com Smalltown Murder Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp, NA or Stride bank members. FDIC SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in Spotme and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on Submission of payment file fees apply at out of network ATMs. Hey, everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit about life 360. And I know this is Jimmy's favorite thing in the world.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I love it.

[James Petregallo]

Jimmy has. I mean, he's out there, his son is driving now. So, yeah, he goes through all the scenarios in his mind of where could he be? And he doesn't have to do that anymore. No, he just gets right on Life360 and sees exactly what he's doing and what speed he's doing it at. As a matter of fact. Fact, it's great. Whether it's your spouse, your kids, your parents, even your friends. You love somebody, it means you're gonna worry about them a lot. We all do it. Life360 will address this anxiety with this location sharing app that puts the real time location of everyone you love right in the palm of your hand. And I'm telling you, I know you tell me all the time about how you're texting your son. He's not texting you back. You're calling me, like, I'll see where he is right now. I've seen you do it 30 times. And then you'll text them, I see you're on this road and it makes you feel better. Get peace of mind in the palm of your hand with Life360. Visit life360.com or download the app today and use code Small Town murder to get 15% off. That's life360.com code small town murder.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

So he's telling him, look, I'm in contact with Michael. I need this money so I can pay his lawyers so we can have him be able to come back and all this shit. So then he and the father did it. He gave him $60,000. Then he went over and got another $40,000 from Krakowski's father with a little less clever ruse. You know, that of the lawyer. Oh, he just pulled a gun on him and told him, give me $40,000 or I'll shoot you in the fucking head. That's all. Now, that happened in May of 2002. So a year goes by. Literally a year goes by, they think Krakowski's on the run. Everybody does. They think he's on the lam. He had so much cash from his drug dealing, he's probably in South America by now. That's what everybody thinks. I mean, why else. Why would he stick around if he's got $3 million in cash, fucking take off. So then on June 4, 2003. So about a year later, Paul Weekly, the partner in the Krakowski murder, here, Hugo's pal, he gets arrested on a burglary charge and was a suspect in the robbery of a bartender in Kingston township.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, because 100 grand split two ways, even if. Even if he doesn't split it evenly, that doesn't stretch.

[James Petregallo]

No. And I don't think these guys are like, well, I got this much for I'm going to move into a sensibly priced apartment and I'm going to budget this out.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm gonna get myself a bachelor's degree. I'm gonna.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I'm gonna go to community college with this money, and then I'm gonna parlay that into a decent gr. No, I think these guys are probably fucking off buying drugs and booze and women and whatever else they can fucking get their hands on. Probably going to Vegas and partying or something. So, yeah, based on a burglary charge and being a suspect in a robbery case, which this is a guy who's already been in federal prison, so he's got a record, he's in a lot of trouble. He decides to start cooperating with the cops.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'll tell you guys some things.

[James Petregallo]

And he goes, I know of bodies buried at a house on Mount Olivet Road in Kingston Township. He gives all these statements regarding the killings, exactly what we just told you, which we'll tell you in more detail later. He initially attempted to distance himself from this, like, I was there, but I don't know nothing. Eventually, he confessed to his involvement. Yes, I hit the guy a couple of times, asked him where the money is and all that, and says he can lead law enforcement to the burial site as well. He can do that. He said that Hugo had in his possession a shoebox filled with cash that Krakowski had given him, constituting an incredibly large sum of money, like maybe $100,000. And we know that money's completely gone, so we know that for a fact. There might be a shoebox with, like, four singles in it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So Weekly told the cops here that on the day of the murders, he was the one who dragged Krakowski and Tammy Facet's bodies out of his. Out of his car and into the residence that he shared with Hugo and his girlfriend, Heather Strom, at their new house that they just got. So he said that was the old house, because then, yeah, that's the old house. They stashed these two corpses in their house for a couple Days, Golly. Then. And they stayed at a hotel. And then two nights later, the after the murder, there they left. The bodies were in his vehicle then. And that's when he said he was going to bury them. After that, he says about Hugo, quote, when he gets those googly eyes, watch out. Googly, ey.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Great googly, googly eyes wander around in his head.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it starts bouncing around. You better watch out, boy. He also led police to. He said, there's two bodies there. He goes, there's another corpse there as well. It's burned. There's a third corpse. And he says, I also have knowledge of up to as many as 11 other murders I can tell you about. Yeah. And they were like, we think he's lying about a lot of this, but not the Krakowski thing. So June 5, the very next day, Hugo's sister Marianne says she was at her brother's house, the house that he moved into with Heather Strom. They were preparing for a graduation party for her daughter. Apparently that is when the house is swarmed with police with search warrants. Here. That's a nice graduation part. That poor kid. I feel. Dude, all her friends were there. That sucks. Imagine that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, my uncle is.

[James Petregallo]

They start digging corpses up, for Christ's sake. While you're trying to. The punch is good. Just. You can have some. We got a six foot sandwich.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It says graduate, graduate on that pillow. That's the most confusing instruction ever.

[James Petregallo]

Balloons. There's not usually balloons at like corpse unveilings. You know, like a corpse unearthing. There's not usually balloons and party favors and shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's weird reveal of the corpse.

[James Petregallo]

It's so strange. So they said that the woman said she was very shocked when she learned what was happening. His sister said, this is Hugo's sister. Quote, he immediately looked at me and said, oh my God, they're looking for bodies. That's not good. No, that's pretty bad. If a bunch of cops weren't in my yard, I'd go, I don't know what the fuck they're doing here. I would have literally no idea.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He knew exactly.

[James Petregallo]

He knew exactly what was happening.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nailed it.

[James Petregallo]

I'd be very confused. I'd be like, maybe they're setting up on the neighbor. I don't know what's happening. I've done nothing. So, yes. So he's arrested Hugo, obviously, on June 5, when they served the search warrant and found bodies in his fucking yard. They find the bodies of Kurkowski and Facet buried in a mixture of natural earth Store purchased soil and coal remnants.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What's the oh like, huh?

[James Petregallo]

He used bags of topsoil too. Oh, not tried. Yeah, we'll talk. Well, the coal is from other fires. These two are not burned. We'll talk about people who were. Investigators also discover a burn pit on the property with the remains of at least three people.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Three people.

[James Petregallo]

These are three people besides Tammy and Krakowski that we just found.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. They identify two of these people as Adaya Keiller, 22 years old, and Frank James, 29 years old. And they have nicknames too. We'll get into. Frank James is. We'll get into it. So there's a guy who lives on a trailer on Hugo's property, said he was talking to Hugo when the cops showed up. And he said they must have known what they were doing because they went right to the spot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Because Weekly had told them. Now is when they bring Patrick Russin into the whole deal here. And Patrick Russin says that the shotgun that he got to shoot skunks from Hugo's brother was the same shotgun used to murder these two men that we found in the burn pit. So the prosecutors later, they say that he killed. It was Frank James. His name is Rudy. And Adaya Keeler's nickname is Redman. You can't kill red man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A lady named Red man, that makes you choose.

[James Petregallo]

She's. No, it's a guy. It's a guy. Adaya is his name. It's a man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, what is it?

[James Petregallo]

Adaya. A D, E, I, Y, E. Okay. I think it's a Daya, but yeah, Red Man. They're both of them are black guys, by the way.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay, so they gotta be a cha guy, right?

[James Petregallo]

Gotta be a what?

[Jimmy Wissman]

A chaw guy. Red man. The pouches.

[James Petregallo]

Oh my God.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What are you doing?

[James Petregallo]

Dude, I got so scared for a second there. I was like, what kind of weird fucking racist rabbit hole are you going on here? A chalk guy? What does that mean? I was like, I don't even know what that means. I was like, what is happening right now? Who am I talking to? Ladies and gentlemen, my partner, Andrew Jackson. It's been a long time.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He created a new slur. It's a cha guy.

[James Petregallo]

Maybe a lot. Just for know a lot of black people. There's kind of red is kind of a yellow. There's people that are more red and yeah. So that he might be Red man for that. Or he might have really liked Redman.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Hey, he could. Yeah, it could be a big like.

[James Petregallo]

2001 or you know, who knows?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like him so much I stole his name.

[James Petregallo]

I just said I'm Redman now. This is my partner, method man. Here we are.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So big fun of Eminem. Call me Eminem from now on.

[James Petregallo]

Just all the time. So besides implicating Hugo as the trigger man in the murders, Patrick Russin also says that Hugo called his younger brothers to ask if he could borrow the gun the same day as one of the murders. So Hugo asked to borrow the gun, Rustin just went to pick it up. That's what he says. So Rustin also says he couldn't remember if Hugo went to pick up the shotgun or if the guy came or if Ron Jr. Came and delivered it. But Ron Jr. Says Patrick came and got it. So it's neither of the things Patrick says it is. So. Yeah. Now apparently the murders of Frank James and. And Red Man Keeler here, Selenski picked up Frank James and his girlfriend Eurita Bradford at a Wilkes Bare hospital on Wilkes Barry. Wilkes Barre. Yeah, right. I think it's Wilkes Barry. Right, it's Wilkes Barry. I think it's a real. It's weird, but I think that's what it is. Pick them up at. On May 13, 2003. So that is, you know, what, not even 10 days after the murder of. Or just. That was exactly 10 days after the murder. Oh, no, that was, I'm sorry, that's a year and 10 days after he killed Krakowski and Fassett. So apparently the woman here, Yurita, had just given birth to their child, to her and Frank James child. And Zelensky took them to a city Rite Aid in the afternoon so she could get a prescription. He gave them a ride to her Sherman Hills apartment where somebody else popped in. And that's Adaya Keeler, Red man, he popped in. Both of these guys, by the way, apparently allegedly sell drugs. Frank and Adaya. So that is when apparently Selenski took both of these guys. So dropped the baby and the. And the new mother off. This guy is coming home from the hospital with a new baby and he's like, yeah, you guys go inside. I'm going to go with my friends for a while. See you later. Imagine any guy who's had a child.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

With a woman. With a woman you're with and everything like that. Imagine number one, you get a ride from your friend to go home from the hospital and then you're like, all right, peace. While she carries in a car seat and bag with fucking diapers in it and a baby on one hand all.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This shit that thing alive alone.

[James Petregallo]

I'm gonna go out for a while. I'll see you later. Like that is ballsy. Try that move. I'm going out with my fry. What? You were in there. You were in labor for like 12 hours. That was a long time. I had to sit there with you. So now I gotta go out. Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Cooped up in that hospital for the last 48 hours. I gotta go.

[James Petregallo]

I gotta go. I got some fucking. Some tail to get on the zeitiens to do. So now he's driving away. Hugo's driving away with Rudy and Redman here. Okay? Now that is when Selenski took him to his home, took the both these men to his home on Mount Olivet Road. Russin was at the home, Patrick Russin, when he saw Selinski arrive with two black males in the car. I guess they all came in, they got some pizza.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Having a little party. This guy's having pizza at his friend's house. When wow mind exploded.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That hospital food for the last 48 hours was shit. Dude, I'm gonna need a Papa John's.

[James Petregallo]

My ex wife would have stabbed me in the throat if I did this. Mix that with like postpartum and everything else. Holy shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I would have taken more than she took from me.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck yeah. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She may have taken my life.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean. You would be deserving of it. So Patrick said at one point he went to sleep inside the home during this. That's how long it was meandering. They're hanging out. Selensky later went inside and told Patrick Russin, this is according to Russin, that the guys are in the garage and Russin went to get them. And as he did, he saw Selinski grab the shotgun and load it with three shells. Then they went into the garage. Patrick Russin said he heard a bang. One loud bang, he says, quote. So then he turns and sees Frank James Rudy falling to the ground, shot. That's what he said. He then chased Red man and handcuffed him. Hugo does. That's what. That's what Russin is saying now. So apparently here he. Patrick Russin says that Hugo dragged Frank James his body into the garage and stole his drugs and money around the same time. He said Zelensky went back outside and Russin heard Zelensky talking to his former girlfriend on the phone who lived at his house. From outside the garage or not on the phone, just talking to her outside on the property. This is why while they kept Redman tied up in the garage for a While. And then inside the home. So the next morning, after the girlfriend left for work at about 7:30, Zelensky began interrogating Redman for information about another drug dealer he wanted to rob. He just held him hostage all night till his girlfriend left. His girlfriend came out and said, what was that noise? And he went, oh, I dropped a fucking thing and it's fine. She goes, sounded like a gunshot. And he's like, no, no gunshot, that's crazy. And he's like, okay, no more gunshots till she leaves for work.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This guy's not allowed to die tonight.

[James Petregallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She said, so.

[James Petregallo]

So apparently Redman cooperated, even offered to help, even offered to help before they ended up taking him outside. And Patrick said then he heard another shot and Redman was shot and on the ground. Selenski told Patrick Russin to pick him up. But I guess he wasn't dead, Red, man. So he tried to get up. He was trying to get up and Hugo shot him again. And Patrick said he didn't move after that. So what they did is they took the bodies into the burn pit and burned them and tossed the remaining bones in garbage bags which were also found. Bags full of burnt bones.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They found bagged up remains.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck, man. That is pretty goddamn crazy. And he says that Paul Weekly also helped with the burning and the disposing as well. So that is pretty fucking wild. Yeah, because they came in there, they identified the bodies of Krakowski and Facet and then literally found more bodies. And they were like, well, if these are the people we're looking for, who the fuck are these people? So this is a mess now. Now we have at least five bodies, a lot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And they have bone fragments of what they believe are up to 12 people.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

All together here. This is a mess. A fucking mess. I mean, it's a. It's a John Wayne Gacy's house just out. He didn't have a yard this big or else he would have just did this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's so many people.

[James Petregallo]

It's so many people.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Think about how many people. 12 people is.

[James Petregallo]

He's just thinking like, I can just do things, kill people and throw them in the yard. No one will notice. Like it's just a habit he's gotten into now. It's weird as fuck. So now his ex wife here, this is Kurkowski's ex wife, Michael. The victim here, Kim, she said she doesn't know how his body ended up in her cousin's ex boyfriend's backyard. Because also, yeah, Hugo was involved in that as well. Hugo went out with another cousin of hers.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

The cousin said she doesn't know either. So I think that's how they met, by the way, is through the family, because I think we'll find that out later in court. So, yeah, she, by the way, has been telling her kids that her father was missing. Their father was missing for the last year. We don't know where he is. But now she said that his remains are identified. She told her kids, I just want to tell you, we know where Daddy is now. Yay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They still not gonna come to your birthday.

[James Petregallo]

And then she said, he's in heaven. He died. You got to start that out with bad news, kids. You can't say, hey, kids, we know where Daddy is. Woohoo. He's in heaven.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

She thought once back in the day, she thought that he should just be left in jail for what he had done to his family, you know, with all this legal bullshit that Krakowski caused. But now that come back to haunt this woman. Yep. She said, it sickens me to know that he dies, like, died like that. And the whole thing troubles her. And so, yeah, there is that. According to her, Kim, and several other people. Selenski, Hugo was considered Kurkowski's best friend.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Kurkowski considered him his best friend. So they're talking. They're arresting everybody. Obviously, they arrest weekly. He's been arrested. They arrest Russin. They arrest Hugo, bring everybody in. And they're asking a lot of people, did he? Because what they're saying is that Hugo kept people from going on certain areas of his property on purpose. He kept certain areas, like, off limits to people. But then they talked to his little sister, Brooke, who says she was 12 when this happened, because this is later on. And she says that he gave her unfettered access to the property, her and others. There were no forbidden areas, none of that. She said she and others would ride ATVs on the trails that he made behind the property and that he was a stickler for safety. She said there were no restrictions. Just make sure you wear a helmet when you ride the quads. I don't want to have to burn and bury another body. Okay, so, wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Imagine Dahmer just being a stickler about seat belts.

[James Petregallo]

It would have been so funny if he was a real stickler for bicycle safety. That was his thing. He's like, listen, people with traffic, let's go. Reflectors all around. Yeah, and I murder children.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Did he do the speed limit to get people to his home to rape and Murder them?

[James Petregallo]

I think he did. He wants them to get there safely. If we get into an accident and get killed on the way there, how am I gonna drill a hole in your head and make a fucking sex zombie out of you? How's that possible? No, fuck zombies. If we get in an accident. Not gonna happen. Jesus Christ, man. So here's one witness, Louise Ben Sat. Ben Sikken. She is Kurkowski's neighbor, now Michael Krakowski's neighbor. And she said she observed a man with a tattoo driving away from Krakowski's house as a passenger in a brown CAR at approximately 5:00pm on May 3, 2002, which is the date of the murders. She then identified Hugo as the individual she saw on the date of those murders from a photograph of him and the brown vehicle from a photograph of the one that belonged to Carrie Bartu, Kim's cousin, who Hugo was fucking. And I guess Michael used to have a relationship with. I don't know what's going on. It's wild.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Where's the tattoo? Right on his fucking face.

[James Petregallo]

Who would I go? Maybe he was on his arm. When is this? May? Maybe he had no sleeves on. I have no. Yeah. Who knows? An acquaintance of him here, she said she may have given him a ride from Krakowski's house on that date. She said, I think I may have picked him up. He asked me for a ride, I gave him a ride. But, you know, that was that. Now, the evidence against Hugo here includes Paul Weekley's testimony and with statements to the cops regarding Hugo's role in planning the crimes, committing the robbery, the murders and doing everything like that. The burial of the bodies, eyewitness testimony of the neighbor showing that he left Michael Krakowski's house on the date of the murders, the testimony of Hugo's girlfriend Christina, regarding their immediate need to raise approximately $10,000 to cover the closing costs, and testimony of the bank employee saying that he deposited approximately $10,000 in cash in this account the day after the alleged murders happened and would have no other way to get it. Also that Hugo and Weekly statements to Patrick Russin regarding Michael Krakowski's murder prior to the discovery of the bodies. Then there's obviously the June 2003 discovery of the bodies. That's pretty big evidence. There is the homeowner that they bought it from the seller of their house, who also says that Hugo asked him to get out of the house for a day and that was like two days after the murders. Which lines right up with what Weekly said, which they kept him for A couple days. There's also a guy named Samuel Goussay who is. This is very complicated. The Samuel Gousset, He's a drug dealer who says he was robbed by Hugo and Paul Weekly. But even in court, there's all sorts of discrepancies because Hugo doesn't smoke and never smokes. But Gooset said that he smoked a cigarette with both guys. They all had a cigarette, but Hugo never smokes. So there's this whole thing there. It doesn't matter either way. He said that he heard about Hugo's participation in the robbery here, and his. Or, I'm sorry, he knew about it because it happened to him. And he said it had similar characteristics to the Krakowski robbery. So they kind of. It's the same thing. They tie him up, they ask him where the money is. They just didn't kill him. So additional evidence of guilt here includes the testimony of Rodney Sampson that Hugo offered him $20,000 in April 2002 to assist in, quote, taking care of Krakowski, which Sampson knew was murder. And he was like, I don't think so. Also, the cousin, Kim's cousin Carrie Bartoo's testimony that that Hugo gave her $1,000 several hours after the murders occurred and told her to give $300 of that amount to Kim Kurkowski and say it was from Michael, the guy they just killed. Yeah. This is creepy as fuck, dude. That's cold.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Go give this to his ex wife, mother of his children, and be like, it's from him. He said to give this to you.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. Is all I have to say.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's fucking dark, man.

[James Petregallo]

Then, five days after the murders, Hugo contacts Kim Krakowski's boyfriend. Wow. Or talks to Kim Krakowski's boyfriend and offers to pay for diapers and food for Michael and Kim's children, which are like, why would you do that? That's weird. Then also, they. So everything basically is all this shit now. Also, Ernie Culp is the guy, I believe, who lives on the property and the trailer.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And he said he saw Weekly and Hugo in early May 2002, holding digging implements near a freshly dug patch of land on the property, which is right when the bodies were buried. Now, Hugo says, I'm an innocent man.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really.

[James Petregallo]

I didn't do any of this stuff. That's crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

A lot of bodies, man.

[James Petregallo]

I didn't kill any of them. People must be burying bodies on my property without my knowledge. That's what they're doing. They're burning bodies and burying them on my property. I didn't do any of this. This is crazy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

So dumb.

[James Petregallo]

This is so crazy. He said, look at your timeline. Doesn't make any sense. That's what it is. He goes, see if you look at the timeline, you can see how innocent I am. Yeah. He says there's three inconsistencies here. His lawyer says first that Hugo insists that the timeline here is all fucked up. He said it doesn't make any sense. He cites Weekly statement that he or Paul Weekly that he arrived that Weekly arrived with hugo at approximately 2pm and that the two men drank beer and talked with Kurkowski and Facet for over an hour. Yet Paul Weekly also stated that Krakowski needed to leave by 3pm to pick up his children at daycare by 4pm and there was no issue that Kurkowski was ever late in having to get ready or leave. So he's saying that the Times must have been earlier then. So he also. Hugo also says that the neighbor's testimony that says she saw Kurkowski mowing his lawn between 2 and 4pm that day, which means that Hugo and Weekly would have had to have arrived well after 2pm but before he had to pick his kids up. And Kurkowski's testimony, Krakowski's mother's testimony that she had a 15 minute telephone conversation with Tammy Facet while Kirkowski, or I'm sorry, while Hugo and Weekly were in the house. She said, oh yeah, we have people over that took place between 2:30 and 4pm so now she doesn't know exactly what. Now he also says that there's no possible way the timeline immediately after the murders could be accurate. He says Paul Weakley said that Hugo left. Paul left Hugo behind to finish cleaning up and drove away from Krakowski's house with the two bodies arriving at the home that they all shared together here. Now Hugo contends that the timeline doesn't make sense with the neighbor's testimony who saw Hugo drive away at 5pm which why not? They could go in separate cars and that's not an issue. He left with the cousin, the other guy left with the bodies. So that's how it works. And they're trying to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

The timeline is that that makes it that he didn't do it. That makes 12 bodies on his own.

[James Petregallo]

Property, that makes less bones in his fucking yard appear. That's crazy as fuck. He also says the timeline later on in the evening of the murders was similarly impossible. He references Hugo references Krakowski's parents testimony that they returned home from dinner on May 3, 2002 at approximately 10 to 11pm to discover their son had not picked up his children from daycare. And then they drove over to Michael's house. However, the neighbor stated she began taking notes after speaking with Krakowski's father and that the journal that she kept tracking the events related to Krakowski's disappearance showed her first entry at 9:36, which is before the time that the parents even arrived home from dinner. So yes, a year ago, people don't remember if it was fucking 9:30 or 10:30. That's what this is. That's all it is. Bodies in the yard. My friend, you know, he's doing timeline.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Based on word, not proof, so it doesn't matter anyway.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, based on people's recollection a year later, which is crazy. I mean, if you get the month right, a year later, you're pretty good. The time, forget about it. So anyway, everybody's arrested. They find at least five bodies and as many as of 12 sets of human remains on the property. She.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

So, yeah, they. They found the bones of Keeler and James and garbage bags. And they also found a piece of skin tissue they believed to be Keelers on a garage door panel. Viscera blast.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, wow.

[James Petregallo]

That is human shrapnel is what that is. That is gross. He's also accused of burning the victims, obviously here. They said that Patrick Russin used a rake and shuffle shovel to clean out the burn pit after the bodies were destroyed. You know, put it all in bags. 23 fragments of human bone, a shovel, and a panel of Selensky's garage door are all taken as evidence. That's where the panel that has the human tissue on it. There's also. They find two buttons, One from a pair of Tommy Hilfiger jeans and the other from a pair of Snoop Dogg clothing jeans.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He's the guy that bought it.

[James Petregallo]

This is very 2002k momo here. Like, this is. Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What was Snoop Dogg's brand?

[James Petregallo]

Snoop Dogg clothing? Was it sdc? That's what it was. Snoop Dogg clothing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, I guess I did see the SDC logo. I've never. I didn't.

[James Petregallo]

Not a great name. Nope. That shows how unsuccessful that was. That was. That was weird. Well, there's a time in between famous and nostalgia famous when no one gives a fuck about you. And that was the time when Snoop Dogg couldn't get. Nobody gave a shit about snoop dogg in 2002. That's why he was making clothes, because no one cared. It was after he was on like fucking no Limit for a while. Remember that? Fucked him all up and like, he was. He was damaged goods at that point. Nobody cared. Yeah. Then by like 2012, he's in this. Hey, I remember him then.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's different than everybody selling things that tease that it's weed related. Now he's just selling weed.

[James Petregallo]

That's what. That's what everybody does. That's the life cycle of a celebrity.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Famous, famous, famous. Fuck you. Go fuck your mother. 10 years later. I love that guy. Okay.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Remember that song? That was so much fun.

[James Petregallo]

Remember that? I remember. That was great. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't hate people. Meanwhile, he hated everybody wearing red for the longest time.

[James Petregallo]

Except for Suge Knight.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

One guy somehow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Money in his pocket.

[James Petregallo]

So, yeah, this is two buttons. Tommy Hilfiger, Snoop Dogg clothing. Jeans that were found in garbage bags outside the home. A charred Nike sole shoe sole with the trademark SWOOSH still intact was also presented as evidence here. The letters sdc, which stands for Snoop Dogg clothing, were clearly visible on one butt. Wow. And witnesses all said that both victims were last seen in that clothing. By the way, you could tell a pair of Snoop Dogg jeans when you see it. That's all I'm saying. So there's also a chandelier that comes into question here. Ron Selenski Jr. This is his brother, not his father, said that his brother Hugo asked him to remove the chandelier from the Mount Olivet Homes garage. The conversation took place at the correction facility here at the county jail where Hugo's being held. And the chandelier is relevant to the prosecution's case because Hugo Selenski and Patrick Russin allegedly stole the chandelier and other items from a former Plymouth clothing store. Before Keeler was killed, Hugo and Russin allegedly interrogated him. Keillor had told them about the store and how they might find money and drugs there. And that's when. Where they stole the chandelier from. As for the chandelier, Ron said that he sold it for $15 to an antique store.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

And the owner said that, yes, he was a. He did that. They said that was not the only thing Ron and Hugo talked about that day at the correctional facility. They also were talking about the bodies, and they said, did you ask him what was going on? And Ron said, yeah, of course. He said, I'm being set up. I didn't do it. People are placing bodies in my yard. It's crazy. I mean, really, like once a year, you should go around with a cadaver dog just to make sure nobody. Like, while you were on vacation at work one day Just happened to slip a couple of bodies in there because you really never know. I mean, honestly, get in there sometimes.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sometimes those dogs fail. Get yourself a metal detector and see if you can find some Snoop Dogg clothing buttons on your property.

[James Petregallo]

If you can find that. It's a. There's a body not far behind, obviously. Now he goes to court for his preliminaries. They. He's described as looking cocky and unconcerned. In court, he always looks cocky and unconcerned. He's a real cocky asshole, Hugo. He stared down the witnesses, which again, that's. That's a new one.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wild behavior for a man with 12 bodies on his property.

[James Petregallo]

Eye fucking witnesses. That's a lot. Smiled at the prosecutors, all that kind of shit. Thought he was cute. Yeah, he's essentially Karen Reading. That's exactly what she's doing right now. Except it's less threatening because she's a lady, not a dude with 12 fucking bodies. Yeah, 12 bodies in his yard. If she had 12 bodies in her yard, I don't think she'd be that smug though.

[Jimmy Wissman]

According to her, the entire Boston Police Department is against her. Maybe don't be so fucking smug.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I'm saying. Well, we'll talk about that at the Patreon. Don't you worry about that. We got a lot, so. And there's, There's. There's a lot of dirty shit going on there too. There's a lot, man. That's one of those where you go, oh, well, hopefully have a opinion on it by the end of the episode. Yeah. So this guy here, he said he told reporters he knew nothing about corpses and garbage bags full of burnt bones found in his home. I don't know nothing about it. No, no. Shit. So after this, this is in July. Police complete a 35 day search of the property. And then Heather, or Heather Christina Strom comes back. Lives there. Yeah, he's living there. Yeah. They said accompanied by a large black dog. She was seen walking in the yard at about 1:30pm and she said a reporter came up to her and she said, I really don't want to be interviewed. Sorry.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I'm sure you don't.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. What is this where the corpses were. So 2003, while Hugo's in jail awaiting multiple trials for lots of shit here, he has a conversation with his father. Okay, whatever. Adopted father. And Ron said, there's crazy people in this world. That's why you're sitting here. There's a crazy person in Luzerne County Jail. Hugo, that's what he told reporters afterwards. My son's crazy. They said that when the reporters first knocked on his door, he said that he told them right away, the only connection I have to him is our name. That's it. He's adopted. I don't hang out with him. Literally. He was just like, don't know him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I didn't do that goddamn paperwork.

[James Petregallo]

He said I had a normal, stable family of seven children. And he said, he's the oldest, by the way, Hugo. And he said that it was disassociation. They're not together. He said he was a mischievous kid who thought it would blossom into such a notorious criminal record. He says it's, you know, seeing his son splashed across TV screens and front pages has been less painful this time around. He said, though the first time with the bank robbery was worse.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Disowned him.

[James Petregallo]

Now I just say, fuck him. He said, it's been a hell of a lot easier than 10 years ago. People are compassionate people. I would never expect people were much more brutal 10 years ago. Yep. He said now, he said then he talks to the fucking reporters about the other six children and everything like that. And he said the age span of the kids ranged nearly two decades. And he says, I have six other children. Six out of seven is not a bad record. Six good ones, you know. So October 2003, it's a Friday, a little after sundown. So anybody Orthodox can't turn the lights off. And that's a very Northeastern joke. And you didn't even get it, did you?

[Jimmy Wissman]

No, I don't know what that means.

[James Petregallo]

Orthodox Jews can't do anything after Friday at sundown.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They can't turn their lights on.

[James Petregallo]

They can't do anything till the next day. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

It's the Sabbath. They're not allowed to do stuff. There's a whole industry of people that make devices to get around it. It's hilarious, really. Not saying that your religion is hilarious. I'm just saying it's hilarious that you're like, you know, maybe I can get around it, though. That's funny. Anytime you try to get around what you think is the word of God, I always find that hilarious. It's like, I think he knows he'll probably know that you're cheating.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He said this, but he meant that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they look for loopholes like it's the law or some shit. So October of 2003, Zelensky opens up a window at the Luzerne County Correctional Facility and uses a rope made of bed sheets to climb down seven stories.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Seven stories.

[James Petregallo]

Seven stories. He climbed down and nobody saw this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

70 foot long tail hanging out the window.

[James Petregallo]

Nobody saw this old timey burglar fucking rope hanging out of a window. What are we talking about? This is the silliest. This is a cartoon. How you escape from jail.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bed sheet.

[James Petregallo]

That is impressive. And then tossed a mattress over the barbed wire fence to escape. Climbed right over it. His partner in the jailbreak was a guy named Scott Bolton. He didn't do so well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

He fell and suffered internal injuries and broken bones when he slipped off the rope there and plummeted during the descent.

[Jimmy Wissman]

70 fucking feet to the ground.

[James Petregallo]

I think he fell about 50ft. It's not good. Wow. He was in critical condition. They had to airlift him out and everything.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You're gonna die, man.

[James Petregallo]

Now Bolton has a fun record. He walked away from a prison work Release program in 2001 and spent almost three years as fugitive.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Where during which time he stole 70 ATVs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

Valued at over $600,000. 70 ATVs.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Each one every day.

[James Petregallo]

Kept stealing them. I guess he was probably selling them to people. I mean, there's a big market for those because people don't take them on the road.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. And you can chop them up, dude.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. If you're using it in your. In the woods, in your backyard or so. No one's ever going to check that. So. Yeah. While on the run, he eluded capture several times, including a close call in which he ran barefoot through the woods and then jumped into the Susquehanna river to escape. Impressive. And he was finally captured in September. And then in October, they're trying to escape.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's how bad prison is.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, shit.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Swim a river to. To not go.

[James Petregallo]

And then fucking fall out a window also. So, yeah. Police immediately upon the escape. Now he's fucking. Selensky's gone. Hugo took off.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Gone.

[James Petregallo]

They catch Bolton, but Hugo's off. Police notify Selenski's family, members of the Krakowski family and others associated with him of the escape. Hey, heads up, by the way. They thought they were seeking out family and friends and questioning them in hopes of finding where the fuck he is now. Hugo's half brother Ronald, here, they took the press, talked to him and he was like, Jesus Christ, man. What do I say here? He said, quote, if he's innocent, he's going to be proven innocent. This just makes it worse. He should just turn himself in. He says he worries that the cops are going to shoot Hugo. That's how this is going to end. Because he's a fugitive, he said. They don't know him. They hear all these things. They see him. Even if he's not armed, someone might take a shot at him, which is fair. So they're searching for Hugo. And this is a fun article here. The headline is, In Darkness. A grim search is launched from a newspaper, and it says Wilkes Barre Fire Captain Chris Hughes didn't need to think about it. You want the knife on? Asked firefighter Robert Steininger, helping Hughes suit up to look for escapee Hugo Szalinski. Yes, he answered immediately. In a second. Steininger had the sheathed knives secured to Hughes's upper right arm. It was about 1:30am Saturday, more than three hours since Selenski rappelled down the side of the county correctional facility. Hughes was already in his wetsuit and at the Nisbet park boat launch on the Susquehanna river with the city's hovercraft. The knife is standard equipment, he said, in case a rope needs to be cut, for example. But a police officer carrying his pistol said that, yeah, we're keeping this too, though. Don't worry. I got this just in case. They said this isn't a river rescue. This is a search. So they. I guess they said that they've been at the boat launch since about midnight, waiting to know when we're going out, they said. With the deployment order came down, Hughes was told he would take a police officer with him. Hughes had one request. Bring a small guy because weight makes the hovercraft hard to maneuver.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We're looking in water, not first. What are we looking for?

[James Petregallo]

We're going up and down the riverbank looking for him in the water. So they got somebody there. He tell the. They bring a cop in. And the fireman told him, you're gonna get wet. That's a guarantee. So the guy took off his uniform, jacket, boots, gun belt and put on a wetsuit here to protect him from all this shit. They were suited up and they were doing their thing here. He left his uniform behind but kept his gun. So they're going on and looking for him here now. Relatives here they're talking about. His relatives are worried. Zelensky senior here, Ronald, as he tended to yard work in his home here. They also talked to Christina Strom, his girlfriend, who they went up to her. She was walking her dog again. That's all she does is walk her dog.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Well, he's just looking for more bodies.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And so other people said his ex girlfriend's mother, they advised her even of the escape. She said, we're Fine. He would never come here. That's it. Now Frank James's brother Randy James said, this is crazy. I thought they were supposed to handle things a little better up there. How can they let someone like him get away?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

He said, how is he not in a more secure facility? How could you put someone like him in a county prison? That's like a daycare for this guy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know. We put him 70ft in the air.

[James Petregallo]

So I mean, we didn't expect that. There actually was a fuck up on their part though. Yeah, he had.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He was near a window with 70ft of bed sheet.

[James Petregallo]

Well, no, he had to gather that. Yeah. It was quite the plot here. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wissman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

What's that? Now?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Look around a prison, near a prison. There is a sign that says, do not pick up hitchhikers. Because they might get out of here.

[James Petregallo]

Look at the aerial view on Zillow of housing prices right around a prison. Not quite as high as. If you get away from the prison.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sub, they tend to drive pricing down.

[James Petregallo]

I figured the place they keep all the criminals. Would be the safest place to live next door to, right? Which it would. Because they're going to take off and run past your house to get away from here.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They want to get away furthest, but they're people of opportunity. And if there's a house or a car right there. They're going to try and hurt people and take them.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, we've heard of that before in cases we've had. Where they break into a house right by there. He said, this person said, obviously, it's not that safe. They took the entire window out. You think someone would have heard. And how do you hide a bunch of bed sheets? Sheets. One guy says it goes to show the prison isn't well secured. Another neighbor learned of the prison break. When she came home from dinner Friday. And saw yellow police tape near the prison. She said, yeah, why would you not. How would you not be aware of someone having that many bed sheets? Now, how he collected the sheets also played on one guy's mind here. Frederick Hopps is a neighbor who previously was incarcerated at this jail. Yeah. And he said, how did these men avoid detection from patrolling guards? He said that he believes the men must have had help from other inmates. Or someone else inside the prison. To collect the sheets needed for their escape. He said, you're issued. You're issued two bed sheets. When you go in, more or less, if you put your name on them. They go to the laundry and back, and that's it. Those are your sheets. So other residents said the same thing. They said, quote, it was too easy for him to get away. It had to be somebody on the inside. And one person said, let him head over to Manhattan, to the Rock. Let him get out of there. He'd be shark bait. Okay, I Guess Rikers or Rikers or Alcatraz they want to send him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Alcatraz is the rock, isn't it?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Alcara is the rock. No, no, just Rikers.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Have him be in that.

[James Petregallo]

Some island prison. It's their version of it, I guess. I don't fucking believe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You gotta get out more.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. This is the back mountain, so, you know, we'll cut him a little bit of break. And state police said that they don't know if he's on foot, if there's a vehicle. They don't know what to do here. The state police trooper said. What's to say that Hugo can't change vehicles every hundred miles? We don't know where he is. Who the hell knows? But after a week here, or not a week, I'm sorry, three days, he turns himself in.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, really? He can't hack it.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. He said he turned himself in. About an hour and a half later, he's going into the. Into the jail and a reporter asks him something and he says, I wouldn't have missed this trial for anything. He smiles. Really trying to be punctual around here, that's all. Yeah, he was on the lam until about 8.40pm on Monday. So three whole days he made it. When he turned himself in at his own home. He went home to turn himself in.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

He probably went home, banged his girlfriend, and then was like, all right, take me down.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I thought I had this all figured out. Turns out I don't.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus. Well, apparently the police got a tip that he was there. So they showed up at the house, but Kristina Strom refused to let them search the residence when she had previously allowed multiple searches. And now today she's like, no, you can't come in. So about two hours later, the state police said that Hugo's lawyer called saying that he's ready to turn himself in, basically. So he was arrested at the house at 8:47pm on Monday without any incident. They said that, you know, he surrendered. They said, we pulled in, he came walking out with his hands up. I'm ready. There you go. And, yeah, they said we left about an hour later. His attorney said he'd meet us there, and that's what happened. Which is fucking wild, I think. Anyway, so they said that they're unsure why he specifically request. He requested two specific officers, which is weird. Yes. And the lawyer said, I'm not sure why he requested those specific officers. They said we hadn't discussed it. He said, I'm gonna have to wait and see. I was more concerned Just to make sure that no one was injured and no one, you know, that he wasn't injured in any way. He was wearing army fatigue pants and a T shirt. He'd been wearing gray sweatpants when he fled the prison. It's unclear where he got pants from. Where he changed. I assume his house. He was in his house, so, you know, could have been doing that. State police reached into a pocket of his camouflage army pants and withdrew a $10 bill, a business card, several slip slips of paper containing phone numbers and addresses, and a handwritten note online. Paper that had worn at the folds. There's that, all that shit. So he's had some stuff in his pocket now while awaiting arraignment on his two escape charges. He smiled and shrugged and just hammed it up. He said, I'm looking forward to the trial. That's all there is to it. I'm innocent and that's all there is to it. Then he said, I wouldn't have missed this trial for anything. So they said. Though some might say that these escape charges would indicate he was trying to miss the trial. He said, no, absolutely not. That's crazy. Just having some fun. So they're saying there was intelligence. The police said there was intelligence that told us he was in the area. He was probably going to be at the residence. Now, where did he go? What lavish fun did he have? He went to his aunt's house and was hidden in an attic for a day. That's one. That sounds better than jail, I guess. I don't know. Mildly. Then he left the house in Pittston after a day. And the court paper shows he was dropped off in a wooded area of the back mountain. He must have used a car to get there. Car left there to make it to his house. Someone must have helped him.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Him.

[James Petregallo]

So he turned himself into the police. Anyway, so there we go. Now, reactions. James's mother found out about it. Apparently the son didn't keep it from her. And the son said she fell to pieces when she learned that he had escaped. And when they were notified he was captured, she said, oh, my God, I feel so much better. I was petrified. He was headed for Brooklyn. I couldn't sleep. He said, come kill your family too.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't know. He heard the rocks there. He's not coming there.

[James Petregallo]

No way. Staying out. Now, how the fuck did he get out of this window? Yeah, that's something interesting. Well, the jail window wasn't fixed after the last escape in 1989.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's been almost 20 years.

[James Petregallo]

15 years yep. It's crazy. They said that this. It had happened in 89. A guy named Cecil Robbins had used tried to escape from the Same cell in 89. And they said the window was too small, too thin, poorly installed and secured with only caulk. After this guy had fucked it up the first time, he just popped it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Out, glued it back, that's all.

[James Petregallo]

So they viewed the cell block and said the mattresses in a double homicide suspect cell here had a large slit in it, making it possible for him to hide the 12 sheets he used to shimmy from the prison seventh floor.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I was gonna say, where do you hide sheets? I guess you could tuck them into your mask.

[James Petregallo]

That's all you could do. That's the only place they said, yeah, they're big.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

It's not like a little bag of fucking coke or something, right? Put it in your pocket. And only one sheet, in addition to the four sheets in his cell were unaccounted for in the entire cell block. They said accountability is definitely lacking. And they say that also a shank was reportedly found in his cell, and that was material from an electrical outlet that could have been used to scrape the caulking from the window.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

He just got a little piece of metal from that and scraped out that shit. The captain at the prison, Al Ottensman, said that this will lead to security changes. He said that they changed the policies. Some security I can't talk about. But the sheets, we found out that they threatened a lot of those inmates, especially the meek ones. They were just bullying people for their sheets. They're like, I thought you'd get raped in prison, not have your sheet taken. What the fuck? This is weird.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Give me your sheets or I'll rape you.

[James Petregallo]

Yep, they cut eight and got their sheets. So they said they. So we have. We changed having their names actually printed on some of them. So now you know now, is there going to be escape charges? Well, one of the charges is dismissed on a technicality because the bed sheets used to rappel from the prison cell are admissible here. And prosecutors say the prison escape shows his consciousness of guilt. So they're holding off on the escape charges till after the murder charges because the bed sheets are admissible evidence in the murder case. Multiple murder cases. Now Russin, Patrick Russin pleads guilty to third degree murder, which I didn't even know that wasn't. What, third degree?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Isn't that just manslaughter?

[James Petregallo]

I think that's just. You were in the same city when it happened. Third degree. I don't even know what that is for Rudy and Redman here, but Hugo is going on trial for the murders of Frank James and A Diah Keillor. So the defense attorney said the best way to summarize the story that Pat the Rat Russon concocted here, old Pat the Rat claiming Hugo lured the drug dealers into his home and then shot and killed him. He said, quote, patrick Russin's a liar. That's my explanation. Lies. Even though they were in my client's yard. He said that the prosecution's case against him is littered with lies. It's all lies. He said there's no evidence that Hugo drove these two guys around Wilkes Barre, then back to his home here the day that they were killed. He said there's no evidence. He said that a bloody shooting occurred at the home, although there is flesh on a garage door, and they're flesh on my garage door and their burnt corpses and fucking clothes and Snoop Dogg jeans and shit. So. He also said there's no evidence that a massive fire burned the two bodies at the home days after the slayings. He said no neighbors saw it. So how is there a fire? Well, there's fucking a fire pit with burnt bones in it. So at some point there's a fucking fire, Right? Unless you jug a fire pit and then we're like, throw burnt bones in there, but don't light a fire. Like that. Wouldn't make any sense. So they said there is evidence, though, of Russ and was the one that brought the shotgun over there. There's also evidence that Rutten or Russin received special treatment in prison, including pay for no work and special visits in return for his cooperation with investigators. He said all that evidence will lead to an acquittal. They said there is reasonable doubt in his story. Reasonable doubt equals not guilty. The attorney said, so physical evidence here. They said they had not been able to find the rake used in the burn pit. The state says only the shovel. Totally innocent. Yeah. The defense attorney also inquired as to why some state troopers could not testify where some items were specifically found despite having control of the property for more than a month. And they said, did you look for any hair, fiber, fingerprint, spit, or any type, other type of bodily fluid that may have produced any type of DNA evidence? And he said that he. The cop said, I don't know. I'm unsure. I gotta check the search warrant. I don't know what the fuck the lab does. Yeah, what do I know? I'll check the warrants and see Patrick Russin here. Is the star witness, obviously. He testified that Selensky called his younger brother to borrow the shotgun. And they said there's no record of such a call to Ron Jr. Though, from the phone that Hugo would have used, Even though there's. There's that. And they said. They said, cell phone records don't lie, Mr. Russin. People lie. Is this when you want to say oops? And Russin said, I never made an oops. I didn't lie. And Russin is. So he could have used any other phone on earth except his phone. That's all it is. Russin is the only eyewitness to the shooting, obviously, which usually there's no eyewitnesses to murder. So Hugo's brother testifies that Hugo never called to borrow the shotgun. They said, was there a time when you loaned that shotgun to Patrick Russin? And he said, yes. When you loaned the shotgun to Patrick Russin, was he in the presence of Hugo? He said, not that I remember. And they said, do you know why he borrowed the gun? He said he said something about skunks running around Hugo's house and was worried they were going to keep spraying Hugo's dog dogs. So that's no evidence of him being there, being around the gun. Then they talked to James's girlfriend, Frank James, his girlfriend, the one who was allegedly driven to a Rite Aid and then home here. She said she was their first witness. The prosecution. And after rehashing the version of the story, she admitted to lying to police the first time she spoke with about James's disappearance. Now, the story I told you is the real story. She told of what happened, but she didn't say that at first. She said it was 26 days after James disappeared. The cops talked to her, and she said she immediately told police James picked her up from the hospital himself in his maroon Nissan and never mentioned anybody else. She said she lied because she figured her boyfriend was in trouble and that's why he was trying to run away. And that's why I haven't seen him in a month, because he's in trouble, and now the cops are asking about him. So I'm gonna put them on another trail. That's all. She said she was trying to cover for them, even though she had already called prisons, morgues, and hospitals trying to track him down. She said, I figured I'd try to cover for him. Then sometime later, during the Hugo Zelensky investigation, she told police that Zelensky was the. Was the guy who picked her up at the hospital in a white Honda So, yeah, so they said nobody, but they said that no one saw him with the men at the pharmacy. So he didn't go in with her to pick up the prescription. So she could be lying is what the defense said. They said, no. The defense attorney said nobody but Pat Russin sees James and Keiller go with Hugo. The white Honda was seized and police found fingerprints inside it. None of them belonged to either red man Rudy or the recently birth given woman, either the girlfriend. So they questioned. Also, the pharmacy's record indicates her prescription was picked up at 8 that day by someone else instead of 4:30. When she said she was there, she said she couldn't remember if she waited for the prescription at 4:30 and wasn't sure who picked up the prescription. So the defense attorney challenged her credibility and said, and said, quote, you're going to have to judge credibility to the jury, so watch and listen. And so there's that Hugo culp, who lives 100ft from the house, is there in a trailer. He said nothing about seeing massive fires on the property. He said, I didn't see any fucking fires. Definitely not on May 14th anyway, which we think the fires happen on like May 7th. So May 4th. Yeah. They said, did you hear any gunshots in the night? Question. Oh, that's the other bodies. I'm sorry, that was. Oh, no, they disappeared then too, so it would have been the same thing. So they said, did you hear any gunshots the night in question? And he said none he could remember. And they also said, you know, police found no evidence besides what we said, the minuscule amount of flesh on a garage door, which is enough to me. I mean, if somebody's skin, flesh is on my garage door. Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That person's probably hurt somewhere.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's like the Bryan Coburger thing where they have the one piece of DNA, the touch DNA on the, on the knife sheath that was at the murder scene. Like under the dead girl's body, one of the dead girl's bodies. And he's saying, well, that doesn't mean anything. Well, I don't know. My DNA is in no murder scenes. Again, that means a whole lot. Yeah. How'd you get it there? You better have a pretty goddamn good explanation for how that got there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Your DNA is on the knife sheath of, under. Under of a knife, underneath a body.

[James Petregallo]

That'S been stabbed to death, among other bodies. Stabbed to death.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Dude, you're in a lot of trouble.

[James Petregallo]

Now, outside the court, things aren't all bad for Hugo, okay? Because inside court's not Looking good. But outside the court. He's got a fan club now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. The ladies. Ladies love Hugo.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Llch. Ladies love cool Hugo. That's what he is. Yeah, He. They love him. It's wild. This. This article says. Ludicrous as it may sound, Hugo Szalinski is a babe magnet. Women in offices and bars across Luzerne county describe him as sexy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

They love him.

[James Petregallo]

Some female courthouse employees have even popped into the courtroom during jury selection to ogle him, perhaps locking eyes with his blue eyes. People obsessed with Zelensky and the case have even branded yugoists on one of the many Internet chat rooms created in his honor, some featuring his picture. Court employees are ogling on the.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Coming on in to have a look at this guy.

[James Petregallo]

Here's one of the comments from a website or one of the local newspaper websites following the whole case. I personally agree that if Hugo did kill two drug dealers, that he did the world a favor. He doesn't really look like a killer in my opinion. He is pretty hot. Exclamation point. Oh, well, that just. Why don't we just release him then, baby? It's pretty hot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

12 people.

[James Petregallo]

Let's just uncuff the. You got any extra bed sheets for him? Because I bet he'll be using. So.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, Jesus Bundy killed how many 30 women and didn't believe it?

[James Petregallo]

How many women didn't buy it? They're like, he didn't do it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

That first. That trial, they talked to those women outside and they're like, we don't think he did it because that's crazy. He's too handsome. Okay? So they go on to say, such Hugo buzz might leave the guys scratching their head and wondering what's wrong with women? We do the same shit. How many guys wanted to fuck Casey Anthony? It's ridiculous. One high ranking county law enforcement employee, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said he's baffled how a man on trial, two shotgun slayings, can mesmerize women and even some men. He said he's our Charlie Manson. Our David Koresh. Jesus. County Minority Commissioner Stephen A. Urban says he's heard several women around the courthouse call Hugo hot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

While Zelensky's looks and Aw shuck's grin undoubtedly woo some, his appeal probably won't go beyond the physical description, says Sheila Eisenberg, author of Women who Love Men who Kill.

[Jimmy Wissman]

That's a very specific book.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus. Research from her book. Very specific niche. The niche audience there. Research from her book showed some women Indeed, our culture as a whole worship macho men, quote, unquote. They said guns symbolize today's tough guys, whether the shooter is an officer of the law or a bad hombre. It's an extremely macho thing to kill someone. And there's a certain segment of women who are turned on by that. Yeah, we've noticed that. We've seen that lately. And they said also his 2003 prison escape being so daring, using a rope of bed sheets probably elevated this for some women. She said it's the Robin Hood thing, the escape from authorities, the I'm going to get my freedom. How many times do we see that on tv where some guy leaps out unhurt? This proves he's young, vigorous, has muscles, and all that stuff we venerate in our culture survive. He can.

[Jimmy Wissman]

70Ft from bed sheets, that can be impressive.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, Jesus, imagine how good he can clean the yard up after that. You know, think about it.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Throw me over his shoulder and take me right to the bedroom.

[James Petregallo]

Amazing. So they said surviving unscathed is the key, she said, because then he looks like a big guy. Selenski's partner in the escape, cellmate Scott Bolton, fell and landed on the county prison's roof, suffering injuries and leaving him paralyzed from the waist down.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Doesn't have a fan club for him.

[James Petregallo]

Dude not gonna be stealing any ATVs anytime soon. Eisenberg said he's not being described as sexy. I'm sure nobody's writing to him. He's a failure in a wheelchair is the way they look at him. Whereas this guy's cool.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He used his leg, motherfucker.

[James Petregallo]

God. Zelensky received piles of fan mail, some of it rather intimate. During his time at the State Correctional Institution at Dallas, he's been asked to be featured in a song by a punk band and has been asked to be featured in an author's book. A picture he said he received from the Philadelphia 76ers cheerleaders, read.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

Roses are red, violets are blue. Hurry up and get out. We're all waiting for you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the fuck is happening?

[James Petregallo]

You can fuck free men that are very wealthy, that are right in front of you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Literally the cheerleaders for the 76. The whole squad wants to fuck one man.

[James Petregallo]

The fact that Allen Iverson's not around. What are you doing? What are you talking about? Guys can dunk from the foul line and you're interested in this guy with his bed sheets. You're looking for a guy.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Shotgun blasts people and buries 12 in his fucking Yard.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. Eisenberg, who'd been interviewed on many national TV programs about the subject of intimate relationships, said her research found that many women who pursue relationships with killers behind bars want someone they can try to save or reform. Well, yeah. Others simply find bad guys a turn on.

[Jimmy Wissman]

There's that, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Often the women were abused. Well, yeah. Women who want this probably didn't have a great. Where's your dad? First question. Yeah, where's your dad?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Who is this guy?

[James Petregallo]

What prison was he in? When did he leave and never see you again? Like, let's talk about it. When did he beat the shit out of you? What's going on? So she said if he's in for life, he's safe. Eisenberg said he can't abuse her. She's in control of the relationship. And we do get that a lot. If you watch Love After Lockup, sure. That's men and women that have someone on the inside. It's because they control everything. They control how much money they have, how much everything, or as blowing everybody. Once they get on the outside, it's a little different. So they go on to say. Nevertheless, these women usually get actively involved in their inmate's case and fight to get him out, she said. Though the relationship would likely fizzle outside confinement. Yeah. Said if there's no way to dispute an inmate's involvement in the crime, the women make excuses to justify or rationalize his involvement, such as an act being accidental, provoked or drug induced, she said. Perhaps some women want to link with Zelensky because he's somewhat of a celebrity, she said. Also, she said Selenski's got national coverage when he tried to escape. So women may reach out because they want some of that fame, they said. Though Eisenberg believes Selinski would still attract admirers if he. Even if he wasn't so photogenic. She mentioned John Wayne Gacy, a serial killer. Obviously, we know who Gacy is, that ugly fuck. She said Gacy wasn't considered handsome, but he still got bombarded with letters from women who wanted to meet him. It's something in the. I don't know what it is. It's the fame. It's important. Something they said. She goes on to say he was an overweight and physically unattractive guy. What was attractive to some women about him was that he did those murders. Poof. Eisenberg is interested in talking to Selenski if he is convicted, for her new book, which aims to find out why certain inmates pursue relationships with women from the outside. Well, gee, because they give you money and fucking. And it's nice to talk to people who aren't criminal. Men. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And who aren't busy doing this bullshit all day. They can tell me stories of things.

[James Petregallo]

You can talk about emotions with them and shit that you can't talk about with guys in fucking prison. And they give you money also for your commissary. So she found inmates who post their pictures and hobbies on the Internet, seeking relationships, though it's unlikely they'll ever get out. We know all about that from the prisoner dating game on Patreon. One woman regularly attends Selenski's court proceedings, passing him mints through deputy sheriffs and taking notes. See if he wants an Altoid.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Mints.

[James Petregallo]

Mints. How is that allowed, though? It could be drugs. You don't know what that is.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Can't put anything in his fucking mouth.

[James Petregallo]

That's fucking crazy. She has declined to comment to the media. Eisenberg got her idea for women who love men who kill when she saw a newspaper photo of a fairly attractive young blonde standing with a New York City man who was about to stand trial for murdering his second wife. That blonde was described as his fiance. Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Was that the other Peterson?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. Who knows? That could be anybody. She said, I wondered why a woman would want to get involved with a guy accused of murder. Yeah, I would wonder that myself, but I think we know. She said, not everyone in the Hugo Internet chat rooms and blogs is enamored with him. When someone posted on one site saying Zelensky is very attractive and it's hard to picture him doing evil things, the following response was submitted. Quote, yes, looks can be deceiving. So it doesn't matter what someone looks like on the outside. Someone on another side said. Another site said, people really need to find better things to do than rally for the cause of fucking idiots like this, no matter how charismatic or charming they may be. Also during this trial, the mother of Red man here, Adaya Keeler, said she approached Patrick Russin to thank him for testifying.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Even though he helped dispose of the bodies. At least that's according to him. She said, I forgive Patrick. And I told him, I forgive him. He said, thank you. So verdict comes in. This is just for the two. This is Rudy and Redman, and it's called the Rudy Redman trial. That's what it's called. And he is found not guilty of murder.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. I don't know. I can't imagine how their bodies are at his House, like, right there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And there's. There's body. There's remains on the garage door. That's.

[James Petregallo]

Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

How.

[James Petregallo]

But he is found guilty of burning the bodies, though. He's found guilty of, you know, desecration of corpse or whatever. Now, his aunt said that she was ecstatic about the verdict. This is Hugo's aunt. She said, I'm ecstatic. I'm ecstatic and relieved it's over. The family has known all along he wasn't guilty. We've stuck by him. There's another murder trial coming up here, by the way. He is sentenced to. For the corpse, whatever. You, sir, may fuck off. Two to four years in prison. That's what he got for that. So 2008, because that was 2006, that trial. 2008, Paul Weekley pleads guilty to federal charges and he's serving life sentence and agrees to testify against Zelensky for the Krakowski and Facet murders. Okay. Because he said he was with him. You know, they did it together. So 2009, here, also, Zelensky goes on trial again, not for murder, but for a violent home invasion and robbery in the Poconos. Police say back in 2003, before the bodies were found in the backyard, he and Paul Weekly drove into a. Broke into a jewelry store in Tannersville after breaking into the owner's home and assaulting him. So this is a thing they've been doing a lot. He was found guilty on that charge of doing that, and he is sentenced to. You, sir, may fuck off. 32 to 65 years for that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Nobody even died, huh?

[James Petregallo]

No one even died. 32, you can't do home invasions. That's a big charge.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No home invasions. To break into a fucking jewelry store, that's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

So the Krakowski and Fassen trial does not take place until 2015. Wow, that's insane, isn't it? They have had him since a year after the murder, and it's taken this long to actually die 13 years later? That is insane, dude. So the big question is, is Weekly going to testify? Paul Weekly? He'd be the star witness. They said his willingness to take the stand has been in question in the run up to this trial. He's been attacked in prison multiple times for being a snitch. And an inmate who did time with Selenski pled guilty last year to trying to. For trying to hire a hitman to kill him in prison.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Holy shit.

[James Petregallo]

Sounds like that came from Hugo, you know?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, but sounds like it. The family's still participating and Helping?

[James Petregallo]

Yep. So days before jury selection, Weekly told prosecutors that he would not testify. But then once trial comes up, he says, okay, fine. Because they told him, we're going to take you back to court. That's part of your deal, motherfucker. You're going to. Now you're on trial for murder too, basically. And he was like, okay, fine. So in the openings, the prosecutor told the jury, what you will hear will shock you, will horrify you, and will break your heart. He said he's going to take jurors on a journey through the world of Hugo Zelinsky, a journey he's been waiting a long time to take them on. He said that zelinsky blew through $200,000 in 2002 despite only legally earning $187,000. Okay, I don't know how the hell he legally did that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What was he doing?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. The assist. That would make no sense to me. Despite only legally earning 187.

[Jimmy Wissman]

We're sniffing around because he had 13 grand more. That doesn't make any sense.

[James Petregallo]

No, that doesn't make any sense at all. I guess having it handed to him by Krakowski wasn't a crime, I suppose. The assistant DA said that Zelinsky took advantage of Krakowski's legal troubles and all of that. It also said Zelensky made it look. Made it look like Kurkowski and Facet fled to avoid sentencing. But, you know, instead the prosecutor described the beating and torture and said, imagine the terror, folks. So the defense here, they try to blame Paul Weekley for everything. He already admitted to it. So he's a guy who did it. He said. The defense attorney said, did Hugo kill Krakowski and Facet or was it Paul Weekley? He made the case to the jury that Weekly had some reason to frame Zelensky. He said Paul was jealous of Hugo and wanted him out of the way. Yeah, jealous of him. The defense, he's just so hot. How do you not be jealous?

[Jimmy Wissman]

It's not fair. I want to murder him.

[James Petregallo]

The defense, I want to get him put in prison forever. The defense even told jurors that they will hear testimony that Weekly tried to kill Zelensky on two occasions. They point out to the jury the many inconsistencies in his story to police and prosecutors as he was interviewed 15 times since the prosecution began over a 13 year period. So, yeah, there's going to be some stories conflicting there, which is why you don't want to wait that long. The defense said that Selensky didn't need all that money because his girlfriend had a. Had good jobs at the time. She had $400 in her checking account, and he couldn't pay the closing costs. So you apparently did need money. They said, where did that money come from? Tina Strom. That's where.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

So the defense acknowledged that Zelensky was getting money from Krakowski, but that said Selenski had no reason to kill him. He said, why would you kill the goose that was laying the golden eggs? Yeah. He said that he, Hugo, may have tried to help Krakowski flee, but he didn't kill him. He helped him flee, and then somehow he ended up buried in his yard. It's the weirdest thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

He got away and came back and killed himself in my yard.

[James Petregallo]

So crazy. So there's a jailhouse conversation with his father and brother where Hugo seemed very nonchalant about all this shit, all these murder charges. He says, I absolutely deny all the charges, but if I did do it, who gives a fuck? He's recorded saying that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, a lot of people give a fuck, hugo.

[James Petregallo]

There's about 12 people in that box over there. Yeah. A guy in a robe sitting up there. A couple people went to law school for a few years.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You know, I bet those vaginas dry up if you didn't do it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, right. Oh, really? Damn. So Hugo laughs on one of the days in court because. Oh, yeah, at one point he turned to his right, smiled at his defense attorney, then removed his glasses and used his hands to cover his mouth in an attempt to disguise his laughter.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the hell?

[James Petregallo]

This happened during the minute or more it took State Trooper Edward Urban to remove a makeshift rope of bed sheets from a brown evidence bag. Because he's pulling it out like a magician. And it's taken so fucking long that Hugo starts laughing eventually. Cause it's kind of funny.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Clown pulling those yellow, red, blue out of their sleeve.

[James Petregallo]

People laugh at that because it's ridiculous. So is this kind of funny?

[Jimmy Wissman]

It took so long to tie those knots.

[James Petregallo]

That's kind of hilarious. The bed sheets were in one piece. And an avalanche of evidence. Prosecutors as part of an avalanche of evidence to this day. So that's fucking funny. Wow. So they cross examine the neighbor who says she saw people driving away from Krakowski's house. That one. And she said she was near and far sighted. Both required the use of glasses and that there were obstructions from her vantage point looking out the window when she saw Hugo. This is my cousin Vinnie. This is the lady with the glasses going, there's shit all over. Your screen's dirty. I think it's time for. What? Is it time for thicker glasses? Thicker glasses? Because she said they keep getting thicker. Yeah, I think it's time for thicker glasses. What do you think now, dear? I think it's time for thicker glasses. Now, the trial counsel gauged her ability to identify by showing her a picture and asking questions regarding that and whether or not she could accurately see what was going on outside her window. So her testimony is shaky at best. I'm near and far silent.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I can't say shit, and there's a tree in my face.

[James Petregallo]

God damn it. So Weekly is the big witness. He testifies here and demonstrates in court how he and Zelensky bound the victims with zip ties and took turns torturing the Krakowski to find out where he had hidden the money. And he, like, gets down on the floor and does a demonstration. So that's. That's rough. That's damning when you see somebody going through the motions. He testified that Hugo showed him a shoebox in March 2002 with approximately 60 to 80 thousand dollars cash inside. What size are those shoes? Jesus. There's some big ones, some. Shaq's shoebox. Whose shoebox do you have there? And inside that, inside there. Hugo said that Kurkowski paid for him, quote, for cert. Paid him, quote, for services he was providing for Mr. Krakowski. Weekly stated that the amount of money he testified to is only an estimate and he was never able to physically count the money. He said he agreed to help Zelensky and they plotted to rob Krakowski, kill him and dispose of the body to make it look like he'd have fled to avoid prisoners. He's like, it's perfect him. And the cash disappears. Everyone thinks he fled. Weekly said, quote, I thought it was a pretty good idea.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He said when he arrived at Krakowski's home, the girlfriend was there, too. They didn't expect that, apparently. He said that wasn't part of the plan. But he and Selenski agreed that she was just going to be a victim of the crime, too. Now, how is that? Yep. Weekly took her to an upstairs bedroom and bound her with flex ties. Weekly said, quote, she asked me why we were doing this. She was scared out of her mind. He said he reassured her they were only interested in robbing Krakowski and that she would be fine. Yep. Weekly said he bound her with flex ties and duct tape, covered the eyes with duct tape of Kurkowski, beat him with a rolling pin and choked him until he told the location of $60,000 in cash. Then Weekley had led the police to the property and north of Wilkes Barre. And that was the day that the bodies were found. They also recalled Thursday that workmen. Another witness recalled that workmen were setting up a tent for the party when a convoy of police showed up at the house. And the sister testified, he immediately looked at me and said, oh, my God, they're looking for bodies. He was very shocked. Now, one of the Weekly things here is, did he get a deal? He claims on the stand he received no benefit for his testimony. That's the. That's the claim now. Yeah. He is testifying on direct examination that he received a federal sentence of life in prison, imprisonment for these murders that they're trying Hugo for, and that he'd been promised absolutely nothing for his testimony. But apparently he was getting some benefits. He was moved out of solitary confinement when he began cooperating. And he was not charged with taking his one time cellmate, Francis McBride, hostage during an escape attempt. Wasn't charged for that. So everyone's trying to escape here. This is crazy. They question Weekly regarding his evolving falsehoods through the course of these interviews, including lies that he was not present when the murders occurred on some of his stories and only assisted in reburying the bodies at the property. And that Patrick Russin and Krakowski's ex wife were involved in the murders. He said that at one point that Kim was involved. Yeah, okay. That was one of his stories. He has 15, literally 15 different stories. So there's a lot of variation here. He admitted on cross examination to being a, quote, liar with a record of various criminal convictions, that he added various details to his accounts to make them more believable as well. You know, lying. That's how liars do. Wow. So apparently that was that. The trial counsel, I could have, I guess, presented evidence that a search of Weekly's residents uncovered bomb making equipment, disguises, a how to murder manual. What? Oh, yeah. All these things were found in his shit Also, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, there's some child pornography involved in this with him too. Yeah. He said Zelensky then ratcheted a flex tie around Kurtkowski's neck as tight as it could possibly be, quote, unquote. And that killed him. And then he said that Zelensky went upstairs and killed Tammy Fassett and he doesn't know what happened up there except that he must have killed her. He said Weekly said he kept about $40,000. Zelensky got 20,000 and they buried the bodies. So he gave the helper more than he got. Why wouldn't he just split it 30. 30, yeah. Hugo's little sister then testifies to what she said before, that she was never like take so told she couldn't go on certain parts of the property, nothing was off limits. She could ride the ATVs around and all that kind of thing. Now another thing that could have came up here is Hugo keeps saying that Weekly was obsessed with Hugo's family and gave his 12 year old sister gifts which he thinks would undermine the credibility. Obviously if he was trying to pick up a 12 year old, no one would believe him. Hugo's brother testifies too about some phone calls and that kind of thing. Now there's witnesses not called that he's very upset about here. They didn't call Trooper Gerald Sachney, who investigated the Samuel Gousset robbery to testify to the following information. He learned during the investigation that witnesses saw an Oldsmobile or Buick pulling away from Goose's house rather than a white Honda. Blood found at Goose's house matched Weekly, not Hugo. A hair on a glove in Weekly's car did not match Weekly, Hugo or Goose. A certain unspecified DNA did not match Weekly, Goose or Hugo. Weekly sold jewelry from the Goose, a robbery along with coins presumably stolen in another robbery. There are two other suspects named in the robbery and that Weekly admitted to smoking a cigarette with Goussay. Hugo contends that the trooper's testimony would have challenged Gousse's credibility and Hugo's involvement in the murders. Because they bring this guy that they robbed on the stand too to describe it. That's the guy who said that. He said they all smoke cigarettes afterwards. So verdicts come in here now. The charges against Zelensky are two counts of criminal homicide, two counts of criminal conspiracy to commit criminal homicide, one count of criminal solicitation to commit criminal homicide, two counts of robbery, two counts of criminal conspiracy to commit robbery, one count of theft. Heavy, Heavy. The jury deliberates for over a two day period for 11 hours. Really? Yes, they do. And they find him guilty. Yeah, on all charges except conspiracy to commit robbery on Tammy Facet and solicitation of murder on Krakowski. Somehow he's not guilty of those two. Not sure, doesn't matter. Those are lesser charges than the ones we have. And they're still aggravators to the others because all the conspiracy charges, except for those two are in there.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And the robbery of his parents is fucking disgusting.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's awful. He went to these poor People's house? Yeah, he went to these people's house. That's awful. They were like, 75 years old.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Needs money. That's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

And then just said, give me the money. Come shoot you. Now, Hugo's brother, his brother Ronald here, Ronald Jr. The one that testified, apparently following family members of the victims and prosecutors to the elevator after the verdict is ready, apparently an affidavit filed said that Ron pointed his hand in the shape of a gun at the prosecutor and detective and said, you. I'm gonna get you, Ron in a courthouse. He did this.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And they arrested him right then. Right.

[James Petregallo]

He's immediately arrested, handcuffed, and taken away by court deputies. Yeah, you can't do that. He was charged with disorderly conduct and making terroristic threats. And, yeah, he was released on his own recognizance, but you can't do that.

[Jimmy Wissman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

Now, during sentencing, Krakowski's mom, Geraldine, read from a prepared statement. She said, he knew he killed my son, and for a year, he was out at our door looking for money, trying to make us believe that Michael was still alive. He kept coming, oh, Michael needs help. He's over. Michael took off. And they didn't want to know, so they didn't know. She said, and that just hurts to think that we were played for such fools. I know I can be satisfied knowing you will spend eternity suffering in hell, because you know there is going to be an eye for an eye. Hugo, you know you will be right where you belong, in hell with Satan, because you are the devil in every sense of the word. Wow. She went hard. So mitigating factors here. Well, he's got daughters, so they bring his kids up there. Four of his sisters spoke, saying they loved him. They called him an intelligent and caring man who's protective of his family. A college student and Silinsky's daughter, Madeline, said that she sent. That he sent her letters with, quote, big words to broaden my vocabulary, asking her to look the words up and use them in sentences to show she understood their meaning. He told her to avoid alcohol until she turned 21. Oh, that's good. So let's let him go.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Don't drink. I'm a good dad.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. His two younger sisters, both nursing students in their 20s, called him a father figure who briefly took care of them more than a dozen years ago while their dad, who is now deceased, was ill. They said, I wouldn't be who I am today without him. Another sister, Ruth, said that Zelensky sends artwork to her children, some of it painted with kool aid and coffee. And then he tells them to scratch and sniff. It smells like prison jizz. He said, she said, oh, God. No matter what, I will always want my children to know of Uncle Hugo. Well, here we go. The judge definitely knows of Uncle Hugo.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And he says, you, sir, Uncle Hugo may fuck off. Consecutive life terms together, two of them, back to back, plus a maximum of 120 years on top of that as well.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't think he's gonna get out, man.

[James Petregallo]

Ensuring that what the judge said, that Zelensky will, quote, never again walk the streets of this commonwealth or this community.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah. Rapunzel's Tower with no bed sheets.

[James Petregallo]

No bed sheets. I wonder if he's still hot. How hot are you now? Also, the escape charges. Finally from way back then, he pleads guilty to the escape charges because they finally used the evidence, the bed sheets, and was sentenced separately to a maximum of three years and five months in prison, which is time already served. So he got nothing for that. Doesn't matter. He's in jail for two lives plus 120 years. Now he does an interview.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

He kept saying from the time he got caught, from the time going into court, he kept saying, I'm not gonna talk now. I'll talk when all this is over. I promise I'll give you interviews and all this is over. And he actually does, this is right after the sentencing. And he says, quote, as far as the verdict, it's hard to say, I respect the verdict. I'll live with it. I stand by my innocence. Okay. He says it's been a trying time for his family. He said, I'm in the hole. It's a miserable experience and it's harder for my family. He said that with the trial, there's many things he'd do differently. At the top of the list is his decision not to testify. Really should have done that. He said not testifying was a glaring mistake. I should have got on the stand. Somebody on that jury was holding out. I believe I could have convinced the others had I gotten on the stand, which, if you got on the stand, then it's your word against Weekley's word. So if you can present a better self than Weekly, you can say whatever.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You want in your defense. The bummer is going to be when they get to question that. And you don't want to do that.

[James Petregallo]

No. You don't want to do cross with that shit. That's going to be ugly. That's why he didn't testify, in his opinion. He explained that the Jury went the wrong way, thanks to his former partner in crime, Paul Weekley. He said, I have a very unhealthy dislike for Paul Weekly. You know, the type that makes you allegedly hire someone to hire a hitman to kill him in jail. You know, that kind of. So Solinsky believes without Weekly's testimony, he would have been acquitted. I don't think so. I really don't. I really don't think so.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Bodies in your yard, man.

[James Petregallo]

You got bodies in your yard. You got his parents saying that he fucking, you know, was coming over, extorting them for money, all this type of shit. Wow.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Weekly didn't do that. You did that.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean. He said throughout both trials, even the one he was acquitted in, he said that he was misrepresented. He said, I'm portrayed as a vicious villain, and that's wrong. I have people who love me. I'm not a monster. I'm fighting for my life, and I'm going to continue to fight. So that's the definition. If people love you, you can't be a monster.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And if you keep fighting, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So that's nice. Btk, you're fine. Your family loved you. You're good at the ridiculous. At the end of the conversation, he reiterated his innocence. When asked how the bodies of Tammy Facett, Michael Krakowski, and at least three others ended up in his fucking yard, he said, quote, that's a question I'd like an answer to.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh, would you?

[James Petregallo]

I'm wondering the same thing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I've been wondering that since 2002.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. Oh, my God. The price tag for his defense in this trial was 530 or $517,351.

[Jimmy Wissman]

And who paid that?

[James Petregallo]

That's not him. He didn't have any fucking money for that. The county or whatever. The state. Out of somebody. So he appeals, obviously. Gonna appeal. He appeals on several factors. I'll give him quickly here. One is ineffective assistance of counsel. We knew that was coming. He was setting that up in his jailhouse interview. Right away, he says that the counsel was ineffective for not rebutting Weekley's claim that he received no benefit from for trial testimony. Said he did get out of solitary and he got out of trying to hold a guy hostage in an escape attempt for that. So the court says, though, that this claim fails as it lacks arguable merit. Attorney Brown elicited testimony from Weekly on cross examination that his plea agreement provided that charges related to several robberies and possession of child pornography were dropped. They dropped his child porn charges.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

He's in for life in federal prison, that's why. So, yeah. So this guy's a scumbag you were hanging. I'm sorry, Hugo. Either way, you're hanging out with child.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Porn scum, like hanging out with dudes attracted to kids. So you got a bad judge of character.

[James Petregallo]

Man, I was trying to fuck your sister. Allegedly so, man. Part of his federal plea agreement has also agreed not to prosecute him for the instant murders, which could have led to a potential death sentence. Also, that they should have challenged that neighbor, that old lady neighbor, near and farsighted. More, he argued that her overreaching account was not challenged enough by trial counsel and that she should have been asked by various questions on cross examination, including why she contradicted her deposition testimony that her children were of elementary school age by testifying at trial that they were in junior high and high school. Well, Christ, by the time the trial came, they were fucking had careers and three kids, for Christ's sake.

[Jimmy Wissman]

401Ks.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. She. They further note here. He does, Hugo. That the trial counsel did not call into question this witness's improbable testimony that she was working at her desk in her home by the window, and yet somehow was paying close enough attention to what was happening outside her window to see him. He posits that trial counsel should have asked her why she continued to stare with locked eyes at him despite the fear this aroused in her. And why? Because when people are scared, they look at things, right? That's how they do it. You can tell a lot of times when you see an interrogation, you see somebody with their eyes locked on the interrogator. That's like a predator, prey thing. That's. Yeah, you're keeping them in your sight because you're scared of them. So that's actually a thing. But they said that she should have done that. Also why she did not tell police about this memorable episode, notwithstanding the fact that she kept a journal at the request of Krakowski's mother, of the comings and goings from the house beginning on May 3, 2002. They said lawyers should have also attacked the Krakowski's mom more as well. Should have went after. You go after the victim's mother. That's how you win the murder case. You go after the dead guy's elderly mother. That'll get the jury on your side, they said. Though the. As was pointed out in a hearing, Geraldine Krakowski was in her 80s at the time of the trial, of diminutive stature and she had recently lost her husband, so they said, probably. The attorney said it was their strategy, that it wouldn't benefit the defense to disparage an aging widow who's also the mother of a murder victim by trying to accuse her of illegal acts. Because that's what he wanted.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She's been a tough week. Let's let her be.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they said the strategy. His attorney said the strategy was to try to get her on and off the stand as quickly as possible because she's nothing but sympathy. So get her the fuck out of there. The more you try to attack her, the jury's gonna start throwing things at you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I mean, you can't leave the old lady alone.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they said. The attorney further explained that the victim's father was much more involved with the illegal acts than his mother and therefore would have raised the issues with the father if he had been alive, but he wasn't. So he said it would be very difficult to get to the bottom of these issues through Mrs. Kurkowski and she could just go, I don't know what you mean, sonny boy. And then the jury thinks you're a monster. Also that the lawyer should have called Hugo's uncle in. They said the first individual, as to which the appellant argues trial counsel is ineffective for failing to call as a witness is Robert Higdon, his uncle. They say that Higdon would have testified that he had worked for him in the past. Higman had previously lent him money, Hugo money. And that Hugo could have asked Higdon for money in May of 2002 if he needed, and he would have given it to him. With respect to Higman, the attorney agrees with the trial at the Council that the first three factors of the five part test for ineffectiveness claims related to a figure to call a witness for satisfied. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He did plenty. It's just. It was. Some things aren't an effective assistance of counsel. They're just strategy decisions. That's all there is to it. And also the prosecution's timeline is off. Remember the 3:35 o'clock, this one's at 7:00. All that bullshit here. So there's that. By the way, they've. So anyway, they tell him, fuck off, keep going. Appeal denied. Obviously. I mean, he's not gonna get off on appeal. No one. Yeah, he's got a plus two life sentences, consecutive. No one has ever figured out who the fifth body was.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Are you shitting me?

[James Petregallo]

We have no idea who the fifth body was and we have no idea where the Bone fragments are for up to seven more people. We have no idea who they are.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the fuck?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, Nobody knows.

[Jimmy Wissman]

It could be anybody.

[James Petregallo]

Could be anybody.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Those could be Civil War soldiers. They don't know.

[James Petregallo]

They could be. Well, no, they're burned. And in his burn. So probably not. Unless he dug up Thomas Stonewall Jackson and fucking burned him. I don't think that. So next up here. Now he's in prison. You think the story's over, but it's really not here. I am going to read an article here. This is about a woman named Felicia Thomas. This is from truecrimenews.com okay. I got to give them credit for this because this, this is. This is legwork that they were doing. So I got to give him credit. So here we go. There's a woman here named Pauline who says about Felicia Thomas, who is a young lady who has disappeared. Said, quote, I think she was killed because she came and told us what was going on. The article. I'll just read the article. When it comes to unsolved murders, sleepy towns like this are. This one are notorious for wild rumor and innuendo. But you've never heard anything quite like what you'll hear from locals here in Luzerne county in northeastern Pennsylvania. Everything is in here. Anybody or everything is in here. Anything anybody told us. Pauline said. Pauline, with the help of family friend Judy Fisher, have compiled thick casebooks full of hundreds of tips, leads and newspaper articles about Felicia's disappearance. And Pauline won't stop until she learns what happened to her daughter. Felicia was the eldest of seven children, just like fucking Hugo. Look at that. And grew up helping mom care for the younger ones. They say Felicia still might be around. Had one of her friends, Jennifer Barzlowski, another Polish person, had not gone missing three years before Hugo Szelensky's backyard burial ground was discovered. Now that she disappeared while Hugo was in prison. Okay, but we'll talk about this. This is what I mean. A possible link to these other bodies and possible other shit. Felicia was looking for her. She was telling people she was looking for Jen. She literally went out like a. Like a. Like a fucking detective to find her friend. So they said Felicia became obsessed with finding her. She wouldn't let it go. Pauline, her mother said. And while playing amateur detective, she may have learned too much for her own good. Enter a guy with two comedians names, which is weird. Steve Allen Martin. Steve Allen is a very famous old comedian. And Steve Martin is fucking Steve Martin. So Steve Martin, he goes by Steve Martin here. She quote this is Pauline. Quote, she says, I think Steve Martin killed her and buried her in her basement.

[Jimmy Wissman]

His basement? Her basement or his basement?

[James Petregallo]

In her own basement. I guess I said, felicia, that's so crazy. People don't just kill people and bury them in their yards and basements and get away with it. I guess in his basement. She might have misspoke. But yeah, imagine that. Steve Martin killed my daughter. Oh, come on now. Steve Martin was the boyfriend of Jennifer's sister and is said to be a friend of neighbor Hugo Zelensky.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

Yes, this is all connected. This is crazy. This is so deep. We couldn't even get into this because you guys gotta all look into this on your own or we gotta do a patreon on Steve Martin or something here. But they said Trooper Kelly, who was involved in all of this shit, said he was definitely a person of interest in Jennifer's case right from the start. He was the last person to be known to be with her on the day she went missing. Then up to 12 bodies were found on Zelinsky's property and authorities thought Jennifer and another missing girl, 18 year old Cindy Song, might be among them.

[Jimmy Wissman]

What the fuck is going on?

[James Petregallo]

They said it was a case that shocked this area. Trooper Kelly said even though Selinski would admit he killed. Wouldn't admit he killed Cindy Song. He. She was not. I guess they're saying that he might have admitted he killed her at some point. The Cindy Song person, after he was convicted, she was not counted among the victims because the bodies were burned so badly that the police couldn't say exactly how many there were. They said some of them were in a burn pit where the bodies were burned to almost a powder. Jesus. Because he used coal in there too. He wasn't using. Yeah, coal fired. Said some of them were in a burn pit where the bodies were burned to almost powder. Forensic. Forensics expert experts were only able to identify two and Jennifer was not among them. She. So Pauline said she tried to tell me, tried to bring her girlfriend justice and I didn't listen. Then the year after Zelensky's arrest, Felicia Thomas goes missing.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So the friend, he was in prison both times that these people went missing here on the night.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Did he give his crazy neighbor unfettered access to his property to Barry Byrne?

[James Petregallo]

Was his neighbor already doing this before he even moved in, showed him how to do it? That's what I mean. Did they talk. How would you get together with Steve Martin to talk about how you both like to kill people and dispose of their Bodies. I don't even know how that would come up. They say on the night Felicia vanished, police say she had left work at a convenience store between 11:30 and midnight. She went home and her boyfriend was on the couch sleeping, said Trooper Kelly. She woke him up and asked him if he wanted to do anything, if he wanted. If he wanted a beer. I think I've already had a couple. I'm sleeping. Yeah. He told her there was something. He told her that there was some beer outside on his ATV and that's it. He went back to bed, and she was never seen by him again. He was interviewed several times. He's been cooperative with the investigation. So truly, no one is ruled out as a suspect at this time. And everything he said to us was checked out and appears to be true. Officer Kelly said Felicia went to a party that night, quote, when she left that party with Steve Martin and another male, and the other male was dropped off, and her and Steve Martin continued on their way. Felicia Thomas was never to be seen again. So Steve Martin was also the last person to see Jennifer Barzilowski before she vanished. So they're saying Felicia went to investigate, saying she thinks the Steve Martin killed her friend, but then she went to a party with him and took a ride from him. That's odd. It's weird. So Kelly says, I think there's a lot of peculiarities, like Steve Martin was the last person to be seen with both people. Both people ran with the same circle of friends. So they say a massive search is launched. But it appears right from the start to be an impossible mission. She went missing in June, which is full bloom in our trees in this area. Heavy canopy, very dense wooded areas, caverns, ravines, creeks, dams, says Kelly. This body gives you, or this gives you a sense of just how complicated the search has been for Felicia's body. The focus has been on these wooded areas and forests punctuated by vast swamplands and muddy creeks. The mom, Pauline, said hundreds of people came out. They came out on quads, on horseback. Everyone was really trying to help. When the official search was called off after two months, Felicia's family keeps going out on their own and looking for her. Then, by accident, a pair of teenagers out riding SUV or SUVs, ATVs in a ravine. Yeah. Found, quote, one of them observed to be what he believed was a skull.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Whereas forensics came back, it's a human skull. Quote, both the dental records and DNA on the skull came back to that being Jennifer Barzilowski. Police hope to find more evidence at the location they said the scene was scoured relentlessly by forensic services unit to come up with more of the remains. But the only thing that was located was that skull. And he said, the officer said, quote, I will say that skull was found within 1 mile of Stephen Allen Martin's home. Yeah. He said, you'll recall Stephen Martin was the first last person to see them. Now Pauline suspects Felicia may have been made to disappear because she knew too much. Police have also considered that story. Kelly said for me to say how close she was getting, I can't officially say that because we don't know. But it's definitely something that's been tossed around that she had information. Information allegedly suggesting that Martin and other men had said to have been friends and neighbors of diabolical killer Hugo Selenski may have carrying been carrying on his evil handiwork after he was locked away. Felicia reportedly had a direct connection to silencing through their live in boyfriend Eric Rudoski, who allegedly took Felicia to a party where Selensky was among the guests. Felicia? Yeah. Felicia had actually partied with Selenski alleging allegedly more than once. One person said the only connection between them is Ed and Steve Martin. They were all friends. Felicia used to go to the parties that Hugo was at. Steve was Steve was at with Ed. From all the leads and tips coming in from to Judy and Pauline, there emerges one common story allegedly told by many witnesses that adds up to a horrifying account of May what may have happened to Felicia at the after the party that night. One witness reportedly told you or what? Yeah, told Judy this other person, Steve Martin was there and a couple of other guys were there and they talked Felicia into going into the bedroom to smoke and she went and she said soon there was screaming coming from the bedroom and that the man in the bedroom had a camera. They saw a camera go in the room with the one guy and they were scared they were taping and that she was going to be raped. Several others allegedly told Judy that they heard Felicia screaming once claiming they got that he got afraid the cops were going to come because of the screaming. He left because he was scared. He thought they were beating her up. Several days. Judy says several witnesses said Felicia's boyfriend edwardaski was also at the party and in the bedroom despite telling the police he went to bed after Felicia left the house. They say they told him to take a walk and he did take a walk. He left her there to die because he left while she was screaming and he couldn't take it. So Another witness allegedly told Judy that several guests saw Felicia's body in the room. She said that when they opened the door that Felicia was wrapped in a blanket and they took her and buried her. So they say, how much weight do you put in that? This person says, well, I do know that I wouldn't be telling you this if I didn't confirm it with the state police. The state police did get the same story many times, but they've dismissed these stories, saying they believe whoever's telling these stories were affected by drugs at the time. It doesn't matter if they were on drugs. So the article goes on to say, I asked state police officer Tom Kelly about claims that snuff films were being made and is there any truth to these wild rumors? And he said, to my knowledge, no, I have no information or have heard anything about that. So, yeah, nothing. He's heard nothing. He said, is that something that's crossed paths of the investigators and on this case, was it something at one time that was being looked into that there might be a snuff group operating? And Kelly said, yes. I mean, if people related the investigate of the information to investigators, they may have that information, but me personally, I do not. So you'll recall that Felicia was last seen leaving the party with Steve Martin in a car and with a second unidentified man. But despite that fact, he was last to see both Felicia and Jennifer. Police were never able to charge him with the murders, but Kelly said Steve Martin was arrested and incarcerated for an unrelated charge and hung himself inside his prison cell, quote, unquote.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I wonder why.

[James Petregallo]

So there's a lot of signs and inferences that can say maybe he was our guy. But officially we don't have a confession right now, so it's still unknown. He was, was he? He had to be involved in all this something, Right? That's what I'm saying. So. Wow. So Edward Radaski has not been charged with any wrongdoing and has cooperated with police. Yeah. So Crime Watch Daily visited Ed Radaski's mother and said, did Ed have anything at all to do with Felicia's disappearance? No, no, no. She said they go on to say, getting a door slammed in your face is nothing compared to what happens when I go into an auto shop to talk to some of Ed's neighbors. Good morning, sir. How are you? Sorry we've been rolling around the back of your property. I apologize for that. I wasn't sure. And they get cut off. Quote, you're lucky because my daughter in law had the gun aimed at you. That's her job. She called me and told me, she said she was all ready to bang. And I told her to hold off.

[Jimmy Wissman]

She was gonna murk you.

[James Petregallo]

There's a lady walking around your yard. Shoot her now. And he said, well, I'm glad she said. The reporter said, well, I'm glad you said that. We're working with Felicia Thomas, his family. And he said, I don't know nothing about it other than what I read in the paper. No idea. So anyway, there is a book that just came out in 2024. It's a paperback called Hugo's Graveyard.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Written by. Who the hell wrote this fucking thing? Edward Lewis. It has 4.8 stars out of 15 reviews. It's only 296 pages and it's only available in paperback. So no Kindle, no audiobook. I don't know. So there you go, everybody.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Holy.

[James Petregallo]

That is some crazy shit in Pennsylvania, boy. That is insane.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I hate it so much.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking insane. So if you like that story or if you hated it a lot either way, please tell the world about how great the show is. It doesn't matter. Get on whatever app you're on. Give us five stars. Also follow on social media at Smalltown Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook. Definitely had to shut up and getmemurder.com that's the website. Head over there and get your tickets for live shows. April 19th is the 4:20 virtual live show. Want to come to a live show but there's none in your area or just can't wait to go anywhere in the world you want to watch this that has Internet. We can do it just like a regular live show, but in your living room and available for two weeks after the show as well. To buy, purchase, watch 100 times. Do whatever you want with. So do that and get tickets for regular live shows. Chicago, May 18th at the Riviera. You are next up. Get your tickets right now for that and the night before. Sold out. So you definitely want that. So do that. Hang out with us. Definitely get Patreon. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. This week is no different. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get hundreds of bonus episodes immediately upon subscription. New ones every other week. This week you get one for crime and sports. We're going to do fraternity hazing issues, which you get access to, of course. And then for Small Town Murder, we are going to talk about the Karen Reed debacle as this retrial comes up to a boil. So that'll be a lot of fun. That's patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right now. Jimmy hit me with the names of the most wonderful fucking people in the world who would never, ever, ever bury us in their yards. Jimmy hit me with them right now.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This was Exandra Bruce's, our Elena Zemel's son, Noah. Happy birthday, bud.

[James Petregallo]

Hey.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Happy Birthday, birthday. I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

Well, happy birthday. You called him bud like he was eight.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Raptor 1. Happy birthday. Raptor 2. So Raptor 1 and 2, Gary Howard and Jordan Brockwell. Brock Hell. Thank you all so much for what you're doing. And you're great.

[James Petregallo]

People can't do this without you.

[Jimmy Wissman]

You're amazing. Other producers this week are Michelle Centeno and her wolf pack at Centenno Farms in Centennial Kennels in Canada. Peyton Meadows. Elizabeth Rockefeller. We got Rockefeller money. Janice.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, boy. Give more.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Tiffany Townsend. Robert Baker. Your Highness. Justin Daggett. Travis Freeman. Shell Sinclair. Rosie with no last name. Devin. Devin Hughes. Or maybe it's Devon mentioned something else, but it doesn't matter because it's not spelled the same. Brandon M. Tyler Blevins. Vince Oswald. Corin Nilka Janilka Sierra Cash. Sophia Hernandez Ortiz. Derek Patterson. Madison Benson. Jeremy Brent. Killmas. Kilimas. Ramon Wood. Woodrow Wuthrich. Wutrich. Sierra Payne. Heidi with no last name. Matt and Tiffany Laws. Ian Harrington. Jeff with no last name. Michael Werramay. Wormy band for Bam Fur 1987. Maybe it's bad. Bad, bad, bad. I think that's what it's supposed to be. Connor Brown. Jen Veenstra. Lindsay Nadalski. Amy Ice. Rusty Ingerson. Heather Annis. Boy, oh, boy. OG Bumps. Bump Sniff. Okay, Shauna. Bump Sniff Cummings.

[James Petregallo]

I think.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Sienna.

[James Petregallo]

Maybe.

[Jimmy Wissman]

I don't.

[James Petregallo]

I think Bump Sniff is putting your. Your cards and your coke right on the table. Isn't it really telling you a lot.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Letting you know what they do? Kajell Kiel. Kell Anderson. Faye McCalkey. McCully. Brynn Coffer. Kaufer. Rachel Ruthless. I think that might be a total.

[James Petregallo]

Is that a roller derby name?

[Jimmy Wissman]

What is it?

[James Petregallo]

Is that a roller derby name?

[Jimmy Wissman]

Probably. Kalyn Spiker. Spycher. Maybe another roller derby chick. Darcy Lenhart. Todd with no last name. Tabitha Martin. Aslin Aislin A. Ashland Smith.

[James Petregallo]

Hey, there we go.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Aslin Smith. Terry Bruyre. Bruyere.

[James Petregallo]

Brier. Delicious.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Yeah, that's her last name. Is that.

[James Petregallo]

It's cool.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Isn't that A type of cheese. That's how it's spelled.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. Brier is absolutely a cheese.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Christine Harnett. Carter Rowe. Amanda Clabo. Nick. Nick Cameron. That Nick Cameron? Is there an actor or somebody famous named Nick Cameron? I don't know. It's possible. But he says that guy April would know. Last name. Kerry O'Brien. Riley Foster, Courtney Jones. Skip with no last name. Probably not that one. Anami. An. Ana Mia. Anna Mia Rumley. Oh, like, all right, like Anne Marie. But somebody named somebody Ana Mia. That's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

Animia. Well, I guess it's people are named Mia and people are named Anna.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Right? That's a fascinating together. Megan Boone, the nature girl. James the one Flair's daughter. John with no last name. Bernard Ernie with no last name. Vaughn Holding. Jessica Armstrong. Jeanette Sealy. James Shy Scheidel. Manchester United and pints. They drank that and watch that. Sue Demacia demadia. Sandra Usury. Allison. Michaela Snana. What? That's not a name. Joan Marie. Oh, boy. Ernie? I don't know. Dan. Daniel Barnes, Biff deadlift. KK's vlogs. Corey Strong, S. Wolverine. What is this one? Mary Wilson, Very easy. Cody Lot Vola, Carrie Dixon, Tim Bohner. Bomer.

[James Petregallo]

So, yeah, Dixon and Boner, back to back.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Carrie Dixon and Tim Boner, Right back to back. All right. Eldon Dixon, Tim Boner, Justin with no last name. Cake with no last name. Virginia Gibbons.

[James Petregallo]

Homie.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Like Homie. Tighter. James Southern Girl. Tyler Foster, Squishy, Cthulhu. What are those things? Kumquat McGillicuddy.

[James Petregallo]

That's not enough.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Becca with no last name. Mike O'Neill. Carly Punt. Punt. Maybe Brandon Johnson, Lisa Dominic. Jen with no last name. David D. Christina with no last name. Big imt85. I don't know what that is. Casey Pearson, Bibler or Bibbler Moss with no last name. Cindy Wolf, Morgan Greaves. Monica Schulte Schultz. Steel Toe. Joe T. Remy, C.J. frisch, Anita Lindsay, Johnny Bravo. Probably not. Kate hibbert. Tierra and Mr. Cassandra Tabor. Tabor. Maybe Molly Tamu. Themu. Uh, Temu. Uh, Jack Mason. Josie Smith. Elizabeth Stanton. Yep. Drew Con Coran Corcoran. Bill Automata. Poopy Pants.

[James Petregallo]

Kylie Trick.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Brit with no last name. Laura Robinson. James Su Madik. That's a person.

[James Petregallo]

Very nice. We have a lot of Korean listeners, so that would make sense.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Dwight Shaw. Nicholas Wrigley. Regal. Regal. Matt with no last name. Tara. Helen Thal. Helen Thal. Joel. Joelle Rose, Brandi Davis. Monica Trevino, Jacqueline Lemensky. Katie Wood, Kendra, Kendra Lemon, Shannon Hoffmeier, Kylie Vogelsang and all of our patrons. Thank you all so much.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you so much everybody. You fantastic, wonderful people. God damn it do we appreciate all you do for us. We, we really do. We can't, can't do this without you. So thank you for what you do for us. Thank you Patreon people especially. We owe you everything. We owe you the freedom to do whatever we want. So thank you so much. Thank you for supporting the show in that way. It really means the world to us. You want to follow us on social media? Shut up and give me murder.com as dropdown menus take you wherever you want to go. That said, until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Foreign.

[James Petregallo]

If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey are you captivated by the dark and mysterious world of true crime? Wondery offers you the ultimate true crime.

[Jimmy Wissman]

Experience with early access to new episodes.

[James Petregallo]

Exclusive content and a seamless ad free listening journey. With Wondry, you'll get access to hundreds of podcasts, including more than 50 true crime series like Dr. Death, the shocking.

[Jimmy Wissman]

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[James Petregallo]

Brought unimaginable pain and suffering to his patients.

[Jimmy Wissman]

This was not an operation that was performed.

[James Petregallo]

This was attempted murder. And there's Morbid, the hit podcast that's a light hearted nightmare. With Wondery plus, you get access to exclusive bonus content too, allowing you to dive deeper into the cases you love. Like in Suspect, where an ordinary Halloween party turned into a terrifying murder mystery that left its mark on the community. This case is one of those roller coaster rides where it's like, no, he did it right for sure. No, for sure he did it. Each story is crafted to keep you enthralled, revealing the complexities and motivations behind every crime. Subscribe to Wondery on the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify today. Unlock the door to a world of true crime like never before with Wondery. The best true crime stories are always at your fingertips.