#591 - Best Friends Murder - Hudson, Ohio

Summary

Small Town Murder: Episode #591 - Best Friends Murder - Hudson, Ohio

Release Date: May 1, 2025
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman

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Introduction

In Episode #591 of Small Town Murder, hosts James Pietragallo and Jimmie Whisman delve into the dark and twisted case of the Best Friends Murder in Hudson, Ohio. This episode unravels the intricate details of a homicide that shook a seemingly quiet and affluent community, blending thorough investigative research with the hosts' signature comedic flair.

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Background of Hudson, Ohio

Hudson is portrayed as a tight-knit, affluent suburb located roughly 20 minutes outside Akron and 40 minutes from Cleveland. With a population of approximately 23,001, the town boasts a high median household income of $143,143, making it one of the wealthiest areas featured on the show. The community is characterized by low crime rates, excellent schools, and a vibrant downtown area, although some critics note a lack of activities beyond shopping and dining.

James provides a historical context, mentioning that Hudson was founded in 1799 by David Hudson from Goshen, Connecticut. The town experienced significant growth through various industries but faced challenges like multiple devastating fires in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Despite these setbacks, Hudson developed into a prosperous and family-friendly suburb.

Notable Quote:
[08:32] James Pietragallo: "They got two area codes for this place."

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Key Individuals Involved

1. Butch Pratt (Roger Pratt):
   Born in 1966, Butch overcame early childhood challenges, including a bone disease that caused him to limp for two years. He became a star athlete at Steel Valley High School, excelling in football and wrestling. Known for his strength and flexibility, Butch was perceived as a kind and dependable individual with a promising future.

2. Eddie Swiger:
   Born in 1966, Eddie is portrayed as a charismatic and manipulative figure. A fellow student at Thiel College and fraternity brother to Butch, Eddie held leadership positions within their fraternity, Delta Sigma Phi. Despite his outward appearance as a respectful and studious individual, Eddie exhibited tendencies of overachievement and manipulation.

3. Linda Carlin:
   Born in December 1952, Linda was the personal secretary and manager for Dr. John F. Steele, overseeing multiple businesses under his empire. She lived a life of luxury with expensive cars, jewelry, and numerous pets, including a 38-foot Burmese python. Linda's relationship with Eddie became increasingly enmeshed, leading her to play a pivotal role in the unfolding events.

Notable Quote:
[26:28] Jimmy Wisman: "38."
[26:34] James Pietragallo: "38 foot long. Imagine what that eats."

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The Crime Unfolds

In March 1987, Eddie and Butch were implicated in a series of burglaries targeting their fraternity houses, stealing approximately $3,500 worth of electronics. Although both denied involvement initially, Butch later confessed to these crimes, implicating Eddie and their younger brother, Mike Swiger, who sold the stolen items at Case Western Reserve University.

The situation escalated when Butch began contemplating turning against Eddie and testifying against him. Fearing the repercussions, Eddie masterminded a plan to silence Butch permanently. On June 17, 1988, Butch rode a Greyhound bus to Akron to meet Theresa Walker, whom he was interested in. Unbeknownst to Butch, Linda had orchestrated an ambush involving Eddie and Mike.

Upon reaching a secluded area near Hudson, Ohio, Butch was confronted by Eddie and Mike. Eddie aggressively assaulted Butch, beating him beyond recognition before both brothers handcuffed him and placed him in the trunk of Mike's car. They then transported Butch to Linda's farmhouse, where they buried his body on her property.

Notable Quote:
[97:22] James Pietragallo: "Jesus Christ, man. So they say that she was the one who invaded the place and killed him."

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Investigation and Legal Proceedings

Linda Carlin became the case's focal point following a separate arson incident at her property in Pennsylvania, which was suspected to be a cover-up for embezzlement activities related to the furniture store owned by Dr. Steele. Her involvement raised suspicions about her role in Butch's disappearance and subsequent murder.

Eddie and Mike Swiger were arrested in October 1989, facing charges including aggravated murder, kidnapping, and arson. During their trials, testimonies painted Eddie as the primary aggressor and orchestrator of the crimes, while Mike maintained a more subdued role, claiming limited involvement.

Linda's trial in January 1990 resulted in her conviction for conspiracy to commit kidnapping and firearms violations. Prosecutors depicted her as a manipulative sociopath who played a crucial role in planning and executing the murder to protect the embezzling operations. Her defense centered on coercion and fear of Eddie, but the jury found her culpable, sentencing her to seven to fifteen years in prison for kidnapping and additional years for arson.

Eddie Swiger received a life sentence without parole after being found guilty of aggravated murder and kidnapping. Mike Swiger was sentenced to 28 to 53 years for his involvement.

Notable Quote:
[146:22] Jimmy Wisman: "So you did all this to him and then what?"
[146:27] James Pietragallo: "He’s gonna be an impact person."

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Aftermath and Continuing Impact

Despite serving time, the trials left lingering tensions within the community. Michael Pratt, Butch's brother, remained vocal against Linda and the Swiger brothers, campaigning against Linda's parole in 1999 and continuing to seek justice for his brother's untimely death.

In 1997, a TV movie titled "What Happened to Bobby Earl?" dramatized the case, closely mirroring the real events but with altered names for legal reasons. The Pratt family appreciated the portrayal, finding solace in seeing their story depicted, albeit with minor discrepancies.

By 2006, Linda was set to begin her sentence in Pennsylvania for arson after appealing her initial charges. Eddie remains incarcerated, facing the full extent of his crimes, while Mike is also serving his lengthy sentence.

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Conclusion

The Best Friends Murder case in Hudson, Ohio, showcases a tragic narrative of betrayal, manipulation, and the dark underbelly of seemingly perfect suburban life. Hosts James Pietragallo and Jimmie Whisman effectively peel back the layers of this complex case, presenting listeners with a comprehensive exploration of the events that led to Butch Pratt's murder and the subsequent legal battles that ensued. The episode underscores the fragility of trust and the devastating consequences that can arise from its betrayal within close-knit communities.

Notable Quote:
[183:51] Jimmy Wisman: "Keep living right. We love you too much."

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If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Small Town Murder on your favorite podcast platform and follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Smalltown Murder. For exclusive bonus content and behind-the-scenes insights, visit our Patreon page at Patreon.com/CrimeInSports. Thank you for listening!

Transcript

[James Petregallo]

Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit more about aura frames. What are you gonna get your mother for Mother's Day? Something boring. Here's a gift certificate. Or don't do that. Mother's Day gifts are a little predictable. You can be unpredictable. Here, get them an aura frame named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter. And it's great. You're gonna love it. I have literally gotten every single member of my family aura frames. It's the best gift, everybody. Every single person has it on their counter and it becomes a focal point for when you're hanging out over there. Oh, there's a picture of grandpa. Oh, look, it's that. It's so cool. And you really need this. And aura frames come with unlimited storage so you can share as many photos as you want from your phone to Mom's Aura Frame. Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, our listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver Matte FR. That's auraframes.com, promo code. Small town murder. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit about Gold Belly. That's right. It's incredible. It's an unforgettable gift you can get. Hey, how about mom on Mother's Day? That's coming up. It's Gold Belly, everybody. This amazing site that we order from all the time and where you can get the most iconic famous foods from restaurants all across the U.S. this is great. We all move around the country and then we want the things we want from back home and it's not there. Or even from somewhere else that you just want to go to. And they'll ship it anywhere across the country for free in time for Mother's Day.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

Unbelievable. And there's so much good stuff on there too. There's so much good stuff. I mean, everything from the New York bagels. That's what we got, which is excellent. Gold Belly will ship gift worthy cakes from Ina Garten and Martha Stewart Magnolia bakeries, famous banana pudding, New York bagel brunch directly from the city, or even authentic deep dish Chicago pizza. If you're looking to make your Mother's Day perfect or you want to impress your friends and family with an epic meal, next time you Host go to goldbelly.com and get free shipping and 20% off your first order with promo code Small Town Murder. That's goldbelly.com code Small Town Murder for free shipping and 20% off your 1st order.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

When Luigi Mangione was arrested for allegedly shooting the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, he didn't just spark outrage, he ignited a cultural firestorm. Is the system working or is it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Time for a reckoning?

[James Petregallo]

I'm Jesse Weber. Listen to law and crimes. Luigi. Exclusively on wonder this week in Hudson, Ohio. After a body is found buried on a rural farm, a sinister plot comes to light involving multiple people, a brutal killing and a betrayal that can only be described as senseless. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Oh yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'm Jimmy Wisman.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you so much for joining us on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. It's been crazy lately. Oh, obviously there's been a lot of lots of bodies being uncovered here on the show lately. It's been a wild ride and it's not going to change this week. We have a really twisted, really unnecessary murder today. Just a nasty, awful, mean, brutal and not needed whatsoever. It's really crazy. We'll talk all about it. But first, definitely head over to shut upandgivemerder.com get your tickets for live shows and merchandise too. But the virtual live show still available to buy if it's within the two window. It was April 19th, so if you're within two weeks, April 19th, get in there and get it. It was terrific. It's the best one we've ever done. I think it's, it was really, really amazing. Great story, very funny and we had some good times with the weed and everything else. So it was really perfect. Get in there and check it out and then while you're there, get tickets for May 17th at the Riviera in Chicago because we will be there the night before in St. Louis is sold out. So get your tickets right now. Shutupandgivemerder.com you also certainly want to listen to our other two shows, Crime and Sports, which we just finished up a 10 part Evel Knievel series. Wow. You don't have to know anything or care about sports whatsoever. You just like to have to hear a crazy story about an insane person and you got your going there just a. Oh my God. That's why I needed 10 parts. He's so bad. So then you definitely want also listen to your stupid opinions. Our other show about we look at reviews from all around the Internet because that is hilarious. And then when you got all that, head over to Patreon. Patreon.com crimeinsports that is where you get all the bonus material and it's the best value going anybody, $5 a month or above. You are going to get an entire back catalog. Hundreds of bonus episodes. You've never heard that you can binge immediately and then you get new ones every other week. One crime and sports, One small town murder and you get it all. Just give it to you. There you go. This week, what we're going to do for crime and sports, we're going to dip our toes back into the horrible fraternity waters here and do a part two of fraternity hazing and see. Maybe we'll figure out why the hell people would sign themselves up for that and then maybe we'll figure it out this week. Who knows? Then for small town murder, we are gonna talk about the Lori Valo Daybell trial in Arizona which just ended with a verdict. Won't spoil it if you haven't heard, but we'll talk all about that. She represented herself and that's the hilarious part. We'll go over some of her awful lawyering choices. Cause it was my word, it was incredible to watch, man. I watched every second of it. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show too. Jimmy will screw your name all up. Don't you worry about that. That said, disclaimer here. Listen, this is a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. We're definitely going to make jokes. The whole story is nothing is embellished or anything like that for comedic effect. This is really, we, we try to do research that would put Dateline to shame. And you know, shows like that, that's what we do. Honestly. We want to get every last little detail and then we figure out what is funny there. And there's usually plenty because there's usually someone going, I can get away with murder. I think even though I don't know what I'm doing, you can't. And then we're gonna make fun of you for two hours. So that's how that works. So that's how it is. Now what we do is to avoid, you know, being bad people. We don't make fun of the victims or the victims families.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why, James?

[James Petregallo]

Because we're assholes. But we're not scumbags. See how that works? Now, if you think that sounds good to you, you're gonna hear a wild story. If you think that true crime and comedy should never, ever mixed together here, I don't know. You might not like it, but I think it might. I think you might. Either way, no complaining later. There we go. That said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. What do you say? Let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. What do you say? Let's go on a trip. Here we go. We are going to Ohio this week. Oh, yeah, we're going to. That's the reaction. Ohio Garners going to Ohio. Uh huh. Not oh, or even ew. It's just uh huh, uh huh. Northeastern Ohio. This is. It is right outside Akron. Yeah, it's about 20 minutes outside Akron, Ohio. About 40 minutes.

[Jimmy Wisman]

James Country.

[James Petregallo]

That's where we are right here. About 40 minutes to Cleveland and about two hours to our last Ohio episode. Caldwell, Ohio, which was the Craigslist Killers. That was back in, I want to say November or October of last year. This is in Summit county. Area code 330 and 234. They don't have a motto, but I feel like if you're in Ohio, so people just don't go, oh, you should probably should get a motto, maybe try to lure them in here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They got two area codes for this place.

[James Petregallo]

You know what? You know what? I think I come up. I just came up with one. You're 40 minutes from Cleveland. I think it works. Motto is you don't have to root for the Browns. No, you come here, you don't have to. You know, the Bengals are down fine.

[Jimmy Wisman]

More area codes than we deserve, more than we need.

[James Petregallo]

The city is named. A little bit of history here. City's named for its founder, David Hudson. He was from Goshen, Connecticut, and I'm surprised he didn't.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Henry Hudson.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, not Henry Hudson. That's 1600s, 1500s. So this was 1799. He came from Goshen, Connecticut. I'm surprised he didn't call it Goshen. Cause they used to always just rename the towns. The village of Hudson is located in the middle of Hudson Township. The village here was incorporated in 1837 in Hudson. David Hudson built the first log house in Summit County, Ohio. First house in the whole county. He built. Made out of logs. So I guess there's a lot of early. The early influence here is all New Englanders. Because this guy came from Connecticut and then told other people to come here. So all the people were coming from Connecticut in that area. So it's kind of interesting. It was the home of the Western Reserve College and Preparatory School founded in 1826 by David Hudson and some others. It was called the Yale of the West. Northeastern Ohio was the west back then, by the way. Just the Wild West.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not even Michigan yet.

[James Petregallo]

No, no. The. The college moved to Cleveland in 1882 and later as Western Reserve University merged with Case Institute of Technology to form the modern Case Western Reserve University. This will come up later in the story is why I'm telling you that there was a fire on the west side of Hudson's Main street in 1892. As we know, from 1890, 1885 to 1915, about probably what, 97% of the country was just on fire all the time.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Crazy.

[James Petregallo]

Constantly. The fire destroyed the buildings between Park Lane and Clinton street. And even A.W. lockhart's Saloon and mansion hotel burned down as well. The another guy here, a Pennsylvania coal mine owner named James Ellsworth assisted in the rebuilding of Main street after the street had been destroyed by another fire in 1903. Jesus Christ. Also, he refinanced the Western Reserve Academy because it was closed from 1903 to 1916. They had no money to operate the school then.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We don't learn our lessons.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that guy kind of came in and saved the town untold miners dead by his hand. You know what I mean? A mine owner in the late 1800s. Holy balls. I mean monster. Yeah, it collapsed. They go, well, I lost a few hundred down there. Moving on. Like they didn't give a shit about people back then. Reviews here, five stars. Tight knit, safe community with little to none crime. Little to none crime, little to none, great schools, big library and cute new shopping district that is the hotspot for a lot of outings. Oh, it's a hot spot. Wow. Very family friendly. Although I wish to see some more involvement with the high school youth. Involvement in what?

[Jimmy Wisman]

I hope so too.

[James Petregallo]

More involved.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Every time I'm anywhere I go. This place could use a lot more high school. You.

[James Petregallo]

Anybody that says that I am concerned about who they are. Anyone who doesn't want to fuck kids never wants high school youth around them unless they're like their own children. They don't even want their kids friends over. You know, you don't ever want to deal with these people.

[Jimmy Wisman]

There's some tight high school ass around.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's gross. I know that. That's not me, because I never want to be around children that aren't mine. Ever. Not for five fucking minutes. No interest. My nephews play with them for a little while. High schoolers. What? Are you kidding me? Holy shit. That's wild. So a lot can happen, but it is easily covered up or forgotten and not necessarily managed well, yeah, that's pretty vague. It's some conspiracy theory shit going on there. A lot can happen and can be covered up easily. I won't explain what or why or how. 5 stars. I absolutely love living in Hudson, Ohio. My family moved here approximately three years ago. I wanted to get like a lifelong resident. And then a new transfer. We relocated from the Chicagoland area. Hudson is a quaint, clean and quiet town. The culture is very relaxed and friendly. I highly recommend Hudson to anyone looking to move to northeast Ohio. Okay, three stars. There isn't a lot of crime in the area at all. Crime is not a problem.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

That just. That's the whole review. And then two stars. The area is known for our downtown area. Too many areas. But there is barely anything to do downtown. There are summer weekend events, but otherwise there is only restaurants and overpriced shopping.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

That's all there is. Okay. People of this town, 23,001. And one and one. They got one extra here. About 51% women, 50, 49% men. Median age here is about five years above the national average. It's about 43 and a half. The 45 to 54 is very high. This is a place. And we'll find out. It's an expensive place too. So you have to make a few bucks to move out here. It's one of those places. You're not going to move out here if you're just starting out and you're 24 and you just got out of college. Yeah. So the young adults, very low. They can't afford to live here. Basically. Family. 71% married. Normally 50, 50. These people are too rich to get divorced. Too much to lose.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, I don't.

[James Petregallo]

You get a big house and you stay on that side and I stay on that side and we'll. Don't worry about it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They got things.

[James Petregallo]

We'll stay together for tax purposes, you know. So only 6% divorce rate, which is extremely low. 43% married with children. Only 5.9% are single with children here too. This is very wealthy area. Race of this town. 90% white, 1.8% black. 3.8% Asian, 2.9% Hispanic. Religion about 47%. And it's a mixed bag. It's Ohio, so you never know. The most here is Catholic, actually. Maybe that's the Northeast influence. I don't know. Catholics, The Baptists of the far west, apparently, as Ohio is. Great Lakes region is known the Lake Erie region. The median household income here is $143,143, which is one of the highest median household incomes we've seen on this show.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, no kidding.

[James Petregallo]

Maybe a couple places in Long island were a little high or something like that. That's more than double the national average, so not too bad. Cost of living here, 100 is regular, here it's 80. Low cost of living and affordable. The housing is not affordable, though. Median home cost here, median 431,500 bucks. They are gonna cook you on housing, man. That's. Everything else is pretty cheap, but not that. So maybe we've convinced you. Damn it. Maybe you've had enough of the hustle and bustle and you want to move out to a leafy suburb we have for you and you can afford it. The Hudson, Ohio real estate report. Average two bedroom rental here goes for 1400 bucks a month, which is actually not that far above the national average when you consider the housing prices. That seems like the only real affordable way to live here. Because here's house number one, which is normally like, you know, a manufactured home or something like that. Four bedroom, two bath, over 3,000 square feet on 2.63 acres. Yeah, it's a very nice house. Built in 1880. It's got a big giant porch with a porch swing, like total grandma coming out with cookies and an apron and like, you know, while you're playing the sprinklers or some shit type of thing when you're a kid. It says here's from the listing. Step back in time and experience the timeless elegance of this exquisite historic Victorian farmhouse. Sounds fucking nice. That is 705,000 bucks.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's a starter house.

[James Petregallo]

That's your starter? Yeah. There's no trailer parks here? Yeah, nothing. That's. That's the low one. Here's a five bedroom, four bath, 4,421 square feet. Big old house on 1.45 acres. It's nice on the outside, looks like a big like, older farmhouse, but the inside's got some questionable choices. But still a very nice house. And it better be 1,599,000 bucks for that house. Out of your fucking mind.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Here is a five bedroom, six bath, 5,500 square foot house. This thing's a monster. One T bowl for all your B holes and room for everybody on 5.48 acres.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Huge. It's hideous looking, by the way. Hideous. It's like a big box and it's brick, which is nice, but then there's columns on it that don't go with the black and the brick. It's just a weird. It's a real weird house. It's a strip, but inside it's like ridiculous. Like some. It's all they say, come on in. And there's a hand painted mural in the entrance and it's kind of ugly. Like somebody went gaudy on this thing. Like it was ridiculous. 2,650,000 bucks your ass.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's not even desirable. And nice.

[James Petregallo]

No, I wouldn't even. I wouldn't even want it. Like, put it that way. I don't like it. It's a weird house. Here is things to do in this town. Here we go. Number one, sausage fest. There we go.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why would you call anything.

[James Petregallo]

Which, I mean, I guess I understand it like. We had a comic friend of ours had a joke where he said, you know, sausage fest. That sounds delicious. And I was like, yeah, yeah, it does sound delicious. He goes, why is that bad? I love sausage. So. And that's what they're saying here, they're embracing it. This is going to be a celebration of all sausages.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Best sausage fest ever.

[James Petregallo]

No discrimination. Bring your sausage dangling down in whatever state it's in. Hot dogs and various other cylindrical meats. If it looks like a dick, we got it and we're gonna cook it for you. We got fucking cock shaped food for you all weekend. A fun day of polka music, belly dancers. How the fuck do belly dancers and polka music go together?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Don't ask me. I just felt it here.

[James Petregallo]

This is amazing eating. Shopping, a sausage eating contest, best sausage food vendor contest, a cruise in car show. And some pretty hilarious sausage themed games and activities. I mean, they're all going to be winky winky. That's a dick type of thing, right? How many can you fit in your mouth? Shit like that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's all that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

How many inches?

[James Petregallo]

How many holes can you fill at once? Then there's also the summer music festival, okay? And apparently it's held on the green in downtown Hudson. It's been going on since 1977. And they got some people. Here we go. Let's find out.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Let's find out who's going to be there this week. Or not this week, but whatever. This year the Hudson High School Jazz one and two will be there. Yeah, the jazz bands one and two, which probably not good. Then on the Sunday show, Wish Garden will be there. It's kind of like Soundgarden, but you have to really want it bad. Hope for it, they say lively roots rock. Roots rock? The fuck is that? Cover and original tunes, boy. Sponsorship to be determined. Nobody's sponsoring Wish Garden quite yet. Otherwise they have a sponsor for every other show. Three Birds and the Wire is on. Also, they're a vocal trio. Eclectic repertoire crossing over many genres.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. The Cleveland Jazz Orchestra will be there. They got that. Then there is the Western Reserve Big Band. These are college bands now. Then we got the Freedom Big Band. I don't know what that is, but it's okay, because Sunday, July 6, hot potatoes will be there. Hot Potatoes, A mix of blues, swing and originals. Okay. Clock Tower will be there July 13th. Let's all watch out for them. Clock Tower? Jesus, that's just. Are you a big Back to the Future fan or are you gonna start shooting people? Which one?

[Jimmy Wisman]

And you can't. Wasn't that in Ohio? Oh, no, that was in Texas. Huh?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was Austin University.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Didn't somebody climb a clock tower in fucking Ohio?

[James Petregallo]

I'm sure that after that people went, how come I never thought about the clock tower? It's the highest point in town, obviously.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So it had to have happened.

[Jimmy Wisman]

State did that. I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

No, that was. That was the National Guard.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Killing Vietnam War protesters. Totally different. Yeah, that was a. Not that. So July 20, the Neo Big Band. Neo Big Band. Blue lunch, Blues, soul, New Orleans. New Orleans rhythm and jazz. What is this? LA flavor with a U. LA flavour.

[Jimmy Wisman]

French Canadian flavor.

[James Petregallo]

Guy doesn't say what they do. And then the Jack Shantz Jazz Unit with Barbara Rosen will be there. Now, I wasn't going to go, but if Barbara's going to. That seals it. You know, I'll go for Jack Shantz. Obviously, I want to go, but I'm like, I don't know, I'm busy. But then Barbara's in.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She wasn't there.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean. They might never perform together again. You know what I mean? This is like seeing the Beatles reunited in the 70s or something. This is crazy. Jesus. And then finally they close it all out with the Bel Airs. You know what they sing sounds from the 50s. You knew that. Now, crime rate in this town, what we as small town murder people are interested in here. Property crime is about 1/4 of the national average. So very low. But 75% under it. So low. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one third of the national average. So this place is safe. It's a very safe. And I think, you know, big properties and everybody being rich, no reason to really fuck with each other. Maybe, I don't know, very happy folks. That's all I can think is. Yeah, or just shit to lose. I don't know what it is, but I don't know. But that said, let's talk about some murder that happened.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Wow. Okay, now let's talk about some people first. Let's start out with a lady, Linda Carlin. Not Carlin like George. K, A R, L, E N. Nothing like George. Yeah. So Linda Carlin, she's born in December 1952. Right now we'll catch up with her kind of in the 80s here. In the 80s, she's starting to really come into her own. She was hired in 1980 by a very generous and successful orthopedic surgeon named John F. Steele. Now this guy hired her to be his personal secretary and then also kind of oversee all of his other shit. We'll talk about, like, she's. She's kind of his, like, personal assistant, I guess you could say now. But back then, office manager, they'd call him a. Call her a personal secretary. But she's in charge of kind of everything here. By 1987, this steel guy, the doctor, he owned and she managed a shitload of businesses. There's a health spa called the Pro Body Shop, three store retail furniture business called Old Town Furniture, A tavern, a construction company called Crown Construction, commercial buildings. The steel corporation, which is an umbrella company. All these different companies. So he is really making an empire, this guy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Basically plenty of businesses.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah. And she is managing these businesses for him. This is in the Greenville area. So she's kind of managing everything. She's just kind of his overseer of all the stuff here. Umbrella, Umbrella job. So by 1987, she is living in a big giant house that he owns, Right? She stays there. She has two Cadillacs and a Corvette. Oh, she's got just. All the multiple bedroom closets are full of expensive clothes that she has. Fur coats, jewelry. She likes animals. She's got two rottweilers, seven horses. You know, expensive it is to keep seven horses. No, expensive it is to keep a horse. One horse.

[Jimmy Wisman]

To put one of those down when it dies.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, my God, the upkeep. Well, they do it by the pound. It's Expensive. They're fucking huge. That's the point. That's why people kill them and collect insurance money because it's big. Remember on the Simpsons? They got the fucking pony. They got the horse. Bart had the horse and it fucking. They couldn't afford it. It was eating them out of house and home for Christ's sake. They should have really known better. He can't bring home elephants and horses. I mean the kids, really, livestock.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Just keeping anything like that alive is crazy.

[James Petregallo]

No shit. She also had two pet snakes, including a 38 foot Burmese python. 38ft. A four story tall fucking Burmese python.

[Jimmy Wisman]

38.

[James Petregallo]

38 foot long. Imagine what that eats.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I didn't even know those grow that big.

[James Petregallo]

Maybe 38 in Burma, maybe in the fucking Myanmar jungles. They grow that big, but in a fucking fish tank.

[Jimmy Wisman]

38.

[James Petregallo]

Where do you house a 38 foot snake outside? You can't in the jungle. She does. She's got such a big house. She can somehow fit with a 38 in the garage. Wow, that is crazy. 38, 38ft. I don't get it. It's crazy. So in addition to pretty much getting a free house, she also gets a company car, which I believe is one of her Cadillacs, and $75,000 a year in the mid 80s, which is great money in the mid 80s. 75,000 a year in the mid-80s is crushing it. Especially if you don't have to pay for a house or car. You're really crushing it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's really amazing.

[James Petregallo]

You can afford jewelry and 38ft of snake at that point.

[Jimmy Wisman]

38.

[James Petregallo]

You can afford to put, you know, two or 300,000 mice into the thing every year. Not even dollars in mice.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean, you're feeding that thing rabbits.

[James Petregallo]

Probably, I would imagine. So you're feeding that thing like villagers.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Like toddlers, something big.

[James Petregallo]

Someone from like a Burmese village. I think you gotta feed. They have a very specific taste.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You know, you get like feeder chihuahuas or something for that.

[James Petregallo]

Some like, you know, jungle person from there that wears like a loincloth, you got to stuff there him And I don't understand.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I guess at that point you just have a contract with the Humane Society.

[James Petregallo]

That whatever your gimme, come on and stuff it in my snake's gullet here. Wow. So that's what's going on. Linda's life is at this point in the 80s. You know, she's a businesswoman. She's got tailored suits, she's got expensive jewelry, cars, animals, giant fucking snakes, you name it. Just all sorts of shit. She's living it up. She had an antique Jaguar, also an old one. A 60s Jaguar.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not an animal, a car.

[James Petregallo]

A car, yeah. With her you got to ask because you never know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

The Jaguar might be to feed to the snake. We have no idea. So she also has a boyfriend. Now we're talking in the say 87. When she's in her mid-30s, she's pushing, you know, mid-30s. Her boyfriend is a college kid. Yeah, he is about 21, 22 years old. That's who she's going out with. Yeah, she is going out with a guy named Ed Swiger. We'll talk a little bit about him, but that's who she's going out with. He's a much younger guy, kind of a cocky college kid. And old Eddie. Yep. Ed Swagger and Eddie. She put down $4,000 for a black and gold cheap Cherokee for him and co signed the fucking loan for him. Oh, yeah, yeah. She's treating him like, you know, like mom, you can fuck. Weird. Real weird.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not like to. No, he's doing it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So she's managing properties. One of the properties that she has access to is a farm near who Pima Tuning. Pima Tuning. Lake P Y M A T U N I N G. Sure. You know what I'm saying?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. Another was Stonegate, which was a posh home on Methodist Road in Greenville where she lived later on with Swiger as we'll talk about. Yeah, she brings him in. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit more about Thrive Market. Jimmy, myself, we both want to be healthy and know how to eat healthy. But the thing is, where do you start with that? If you don't know what you're doing, it's very difficult. And that's why we love Thrive Market. It's our go to online grocery store for getting all of the healthy essentials delivered and we don't even have to leave the house. It's the no junk online grocery store that bans over 1,000 harmful ingredients from anything. They have their thing. I know you have one thing you're particularly.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Pasta sauce drives me bananas and rouses rouses there and it tells me what's, what's good and what's not.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wisman]

So now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

According to her assistant because Linda had an assistant, a woman named Jody Snodgrass. That's not a good name. Snodgrass. That sounds terrible. Linda met Ed when he was 21 and she was 35. They met at the pro body shop, the gym. That because he's a big workout guy, weightlifter, kickboxer guy like that. She runs the gym. And this friend said that she really liked him a lot. She said that they became like boyfriend and girlfriend. Like people have relationships.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure, sure.

[James Petregallo]

It sound like that was odd for they became almost like a boyfriend and girlfriend. Weird, strange.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Like an item.

[James Petregallo]

Like an item. Just two people that like to fuck each other. Yeah, that's what happens. So that now Linda's described here as fair skinned with a thick full head of Red hair. Swiger is described as dark and muscular, a bodybuilder and kickboxer. Now, Linda describes him as 5, 10, and 260 pounds, which he's not, is about, you know, 220. He's a big, muscular guy with, like, big, like, thick thighs. That kind of guy. Real sturdy kind of cat. But she thinks that's 260 pounds, which is pretty funny. So soon here. She's so taken with Ed that she wants to help Eddie out even more than basically buying him Jeeps and hires him to work for her in the furniture store that we talked about, the three unit furniture store where she made him assistant manager. There we go. Now we got to find out a little about ed. Edward Swiger Jr. Goes by Eddie. He is born in 1966. So good. 14 years younger. She's very generous to him, as we. As we would say, even when she. She would often lend him cars. But sometimes he would say, I don't feel like driving, and would tell her to chauffeur me. And she would take him around wherever he needed to go.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, toss over calf.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, there you go. There you go. I'm gonna sit in the back and, you know, I'm gonna bring a chicken here too. I hope you don't put this hat on. Come on. So, yeah, that's Ed. He's born in 66. He's got a brother named Michael Swiger. Old Mike here, he's born two years later. So two year difference with his brother Mike. Important to know about him too. Now, about the family, the Swagger family. Mike and Eddie grew up in Tiltonsville, Ohio, they call it midway between Steubenville and Wheeling, West Virginia. Midway between two terrible places. Yeah, so that's not great. And the town that he comes from there lost a lot of its residents kind of over the course of the 80s. They went from 5,000 to about 2,500. So a dying Midwestern town.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's not good.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, the steel mills and coal mines shut down, so that was that. Half the people left. But the Swiger family did pretty well for themselves. Apparently. Their dad owns a furniture store and their father, Ed Swiger Sr. Is a Jefferson county commissioner as well. So they do pretty well compared to other people in the area. Connected a little bit. Yeah, connected. And have a business and a job with the county as well. So they're known as kind of a prominent Jefferson County, Ohio family because dad's a politician or whatever. Now, a little bit about Eddie. Eddie is known as. I'll use an old Old reference. That was old when we were kids. He's known as a bit of an Eddie Haskell. Now, if you're young and you don't know what that is, there was a show called Leave it to Beaver. And I'm saying this because there's, like, four Leave it to Beaver references in this episode. So Leave it to Beaver was a show in the 50s that was about, you know, it was that bullshit, perfect family, you know, thing. The two boys would come home, oh, hey, Mom. Hey, kids, how you doing? There's lemonade in the fridge for you. And dad would come home, and the big problem would be like, you know, the beef has a project due, but it's not quite done the next day. So we got to teach. The Beave broke a window about managing his time. You know, he broke a neighbor's window and, you know, be. You got to go over there and, you know, work that debt off, like, stuff like that. And the older brother Wally, tell him, you did it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You got to own up to it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You got to take responsibility.

[James Petregallo]

Beaver was the younger brother, and he was the one that, you know, they were always getting into, you know, scuffle, scrapes and whatever. And then the older brother Wally had a friend. His best friend was Eddie Haskell. And Eddie Haskell is down the street. Down the street or some shit. Now, the actor who played Eddie Haskell ended up being an LAPD officer for, like, 25 years, which is what. Yes, he absolutely did, because there was no work after Eddie Haskell because he was Eddie Haskell.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Imagine getting arrested by Eddie.

[James Petregallo]

By Eddie Haskell. Be like, are you seriously upset with me or are you full of shit right now? So Eddie Haskell is the friend who comes over and you go, hi, Mrs. Cleaver. Oh, you look so lovely today. Oh, my goodness. Your flowers in the garden are wonderful. And then they get outside, and he's like, we're gonna go finger these two broads. I got his 12 pack hidden under the bush, and, yeah, here, unroll them cigarettes from my sleeve. Let's go smoke. All right, Wal, let's hit the fucking. Let's hit the fucking. The makeshift casino. That's kind of what he's like. So that's what Eddie is kind of known as. Kind of appropriate that his name's Eddie because he's kind of an Eddie Haskell. Now, they said that, you know, Swiger is like a beefy Eddie Haskell. Eddie Haskell. But that'll kick your ass.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay?

[James Petregallo]

Now, people described him as a kid as unfailingly polite and respectful, but kind of phony.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. There's one guy here, Craig Klasser, who is the Jefferson county school superintendent and was also the mayor of Yorkville. And he said, quote, Eddie was the only person I knew who called me Mr. Mayor. Like, very formal, you know what I mean? At school. And then the Clara Swiger said that he was, quote, the only first grader with an attache case. E. Weird. Yeah. A briefcase, a bri. And back then, too, in the set, like, early 70s, that is an invitation to get the shit kicked out of you back then. Fuck, yeah. With the attache case, as they beat you over the head with it and then shit in it and close it and hand it to you back. So that is wild.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, no. The whole football team jerked off in it.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, Jesus. On top of the turd. Gross. So Eddie is also. But he's known as studious and quiet in high school. Anyway, he was a lineman for the football team in high school. He ends up going to Thiel College in Greenville, Pennsylvania, where he is elected student body president.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

So, yeah, Eddie's got some charisma to him. He's that kind of guy. He's a. He's a leader. He's known as a bit of manipulator, too. He can manipulate people into doing things that he wants, basically. He's also a weightlifter, a kickboxer, and that kind of thing. Known as a real. Kind of a tough guy. Does everything masculine, does all sorts of shit. Now, his brother Mike, two years younger, is actually more outgoing of the pair. They say he was the president of his senior class in high school. And he also was on the. He was a tailback on the football team, had a B plus average, and he earned the school's prestigious Clark Hinkle Award. And we all know when you're talking about Clark Hinkle, you know, you keep his name out your fucking mouth if you don't have respect on it. You know what I'm saying? That's Clark. That's the Hinks right there. So he won that. One of his teachers, his chemistry teacher said, quote, if I had to pick one person who would be a success in life, it would be Mike Swiger. He's as good as they come.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So this family's producing confident, successful young men. Now. That's. So Eddie is going out with Linda Carlin. Mike's his younger brother. A little background there. Now, let's introduce another young man, same age as Eddie. This is Roger Pratt. Everybody calls him Butch Pratt. Butch Pratt. Now, Butch grew up a little bit differently here. His family isn't like royalty in the county or anything like that. He grew up in Munhall, Pennsylvania, which we know very well because we played the Munhall. What is it?

[Jimmy Wisman]

The Music Hall.

[James Petregallo]

Music hall. I was gonna say center for the Performing Arts, but that's another place. We've played there several times. Yeah, it's a real. It looks like fucking coal miners live there. Steel workers live there. I mean, it's a row houses kind of a thing. Or like apartment buildings. A lot of brick. Even the fucking roads aren't paved. The roads are bricks. It's one of those places, you know, a lot of the roads, like the one when you turn on to get dropped off at the. At the performance center, it's all uneven and rocky. Every Uber driver is like, oh, shit. When they pull onto their. God damn it. Like, sorry, man, my bad.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I didn't put it here.

[James Petregallo]

I didn't. But I didn't say, this isn't. I didn't pave this. So the mom here, his mom Rose, who divorced his dad when they were kids. When the kids were kids. So when Butch was a kid here, she ends up raising two sons and a daughter, kind of as a single mom here. So Butch's brother and a sister, Roger. Butch is the youngest child of the three. Now, at age 5, Butch had a bone disease in his right leg. He had to limp around with a brace on for over two years. Yeah. Which, again, not the kindest. You know, children are cruel. And if you're the kid with a brace on, one leg limping around, you're probably not socially. You know, you're gonna have a hard time back then. It's hard. So he did that somehow, though, he ends up growing up to be Steel Valley High School's best male athlete of 1984.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

Very unlikely, right? That's fucking crazy. That's like. What's his name had polio.

[Jimmy Wisman]

The president.

[James Petregallo]

No, no, no. A famous professional athlete had polio. I can't remember who the fuck it was. Oj. OJ had polio? Yeah. Thank you. Oh, what, it was oj or. No, he had. He had rickets or something. He had something else that fucked his legs up. But it's one of those scenarios where it's not. You're not expected to be a professional. I think there's a bunch of baseball players back in the day who had polio and then ended up being pro bas players.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So people got it, from what I'm.

[James Petregallo]

Told, a Lot of people now when he's a junior in high school, he starred on the Steel Valley High School's undefeated football champion team. So really, yeah, he was the big star the next season he made all conference at guard, which is the offensive line, which even if you don't know anything about football, you know how before they start when the quarterback standing there and they're saying 44, you know the giant guys in front of him that are all kind of with their finger, hands on the ground. One of those guys, he was five, he's five eight, 165 pounds and an all conference guard.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

A tenacious bastard is what he is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Who had polio and was in fucking braces.

[James Petregallo]

Apparently he's known as being insanely strong. He's like legendarily strong and I would assume he'd keep himself that way. Somebody here remember from the area remembers that he could do 40 dips on the parallel bars when he was a kid. I don't know if that's good or not. He said that? Yeah, he remembers that he one time he strode over to an 85 pound barbell and snapped it over his head one handed. And this tiny guy though, little guy, not expected out of him. Not like a big giant guy. So they said that one friend of the family said that he called him a quote, piece of rock. The toughest kid I ever met.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Piece of rock.

[James Petregallo]

Piece of rock. He kept the leather and steel bracelet in his bedroom propped up in the corner all the time.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I would too.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's his, that's his jam. He had to do it. Now he's a blonde guy rocking a mustache at 18 and it looks, it's like a good mustache. It's not, not one of those wispy little 18 year old. He looks like his picture at 18 looks like a 42 year old man with a mortgage and three kids, you know, and worried about a promotion and you know, been through it though, thinking about putting a new lawn in this year, stuff like that. Yeah, it's what he looks like. Like, it's just weird. He is a very good athlete. Like we said. He also was a good high school wrestler. He was voted the most valuable male athlete in the school and he was also voted and given the good humanitarian award as well.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, that's great.

[James Petregallo]

So successful looking like you're going to be a successful kid here. His mother said, quote, it was a pleasure to raise him. Yeah. One time even he confronted a boy who was chasing his sister and apparently he had a broken hand. Did he Say or he did. He did. He came home with a broken hand and he was like fucking with my sister. That's all. The mom was like, all right then, fair enough. Yeah. His parents don't have quite as much money as the Swigers, but they're not poor at all. Father owns an extermination business and pays child support and all that. And the mother works full time as a registered nurse. So they do okay their house. Like, you know, she owns her house and all that kind of thing. They don't rent or anything. So, you know, kind of solidly middle class family he comes from. Now when it's time for high school to be over and they start talking about college, he started thinking about going into the Marines. Swiger, no, no, Butcher.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Butch.

[James Petregallo]

So Butch started thinking about going into the marines and because, I mean, physically, he's kind of cut out for it, you know. But his.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, he's a football boy.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I mean. He's just a strong guy. Seems strong willed. It seems like he could, you know, get through that and be fine.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sneak it in if you had polio.

[James Petregallo]

I think if you, if you're the best athlete in high school. I think as long as you. It's a physical. So as long as you pass the physical, it's fine. So his dad, though, talked him out of it. His dad said, yeah, he said, quote, I talked him out of it. I told him, you're the only one who's going, who's been able to go to college. You'd be the first person in the family to go to college, and you have an opportunity to go to college. What are you doing, basically? So, yeah, he said, we'll help you. We'll get you through. We'll do whatever we can money wise to pitch in. We'll make sure you can do it. So, you know, they and the parents remained co parents that which is good. His dad didn't like go away and never talk to him or pay any money or anything like that. So they ended up coming up with about the $3,000 a year it would cost to send him to Thiel College. Okay. And then once he got in, his dad said he never talked about quitting. He was into it. He loved it. Just did it every day. And his mom tells little stories about him. Like one time he called her from college just to get a baked chicken recipe that she had that he liked. Her baked chicken. How do you make that? Back then she said that was a big deal too. A long distance call for baked Chicken recipe.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Just for a recipe.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, man, you're spending some dough on that. More than the chicken probably cost. Back then, phone calls were expensive. People don't realize that. But before cell phones and like free long distance, it was expensive to call people. So he also remodeled his mother's kitchen.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What a guy.

[James Petregallo]

And built the guy who called him a piece of rock. He built that guy a deck. So yeah, he's like a 38 year old man. Basically knows how to build shit. He is called by a lot of people beaver cleaver with muscles. So, okay, we got a beaver and he's going to hang out with an Eddie Haskell. So that's, that's the thing here. They also said that he's very trusting, a bit naive and not very street wise. Not Butch's forte is street wiseness here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Well, some people had it, some don't. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Either. Yeah, that's what I mean. And who knows? So anyway, he goes to Thiel College. Eddie Swiger goes to Thiel College. And that's where they come together. That's where they meet and they're best friends. Right off the bat, like a meeting.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Eddie and Butch.

[James Petregallo]

Eddie and Butch, Yep. They're frat brothers too. They're in the same frat together. I'm sure they did a lot of things that'll be on our patreon of fraternity hazing. They played football together. They did everything together here. So in the fall of 85, they were both sophomore classmates, fraternity brothers. They lived across the hall from each other at the frat house. Delta Sigma. Phi. PI. Phi. Phi. Is that Phi? That's Phi.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's Phi.

[James Petregallo]

Right? Okay. Yeah. So they both liked weightlifting. They both like computers.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They're both about five, eight. Swagger's a lot heavier than him. A lot more kind of muscular, thicker than. Than Butch.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Butch had a. He had some issues getting bigger.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah. It's just, he's just built different one. You know, some people are just built thicker. He's one of those guys. It's got about 20 extra, 30 extra pounds of muscle on him than Butch. They're both known as soft spoken, athletic, very strong and flexible. Both of them. Like, they're both athletes. Swiger could do like, he could like jump up and do a fucking come down in a split like a cheerleader, which is crazy for a guy to do. Like, that's insane. Your taint nutsack are destroyed with that. You need to put like a pad in there or something first. It's wild. He now Butch would. He wrestled he played baseball and football and that sort of thing. While Swiger was more into the martial arts at this point. Pratt's a big hunter and so is Ed, and he's into hunting. And he's also very fond of guns. Eddie sometimes carries a pistol as well.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Now, the president of Delta Sigma Phi said they always saw them together. Said Ed was definitely the leader and Butch was more impressionable. Ed was really cocky and arrogant. Butch was happy. Go lucky. Okay, so Beaver and Eddie Haskell. Yep. And that's, you know, as friends are a lot of times. So, you know, Butch is just calm and quiet. They said Eddie. A lot of people describe Eddie as kind of a two sided personality. That's one of those things. The guy who was the president of the fraternity said. A good guy to get along with, but he did have his times when he was difficult. That's what he said. One of those guys. Now Butch's mom said after he met Ed, he liked nice clothes. All of a sudden. Butch. Oh yeah. She said he had. They had some kind of paperback book. They knew what a businessman is supposed to wear. I don't know if they had some kind of guide to like, you know, businessman fashion or what, but they had some paperback reference book that they would look at and decide what to wear. I don't know what that is or whatever, but that's what they do. She said, though Butch didn't care about that expensive stuff. He was happy if his stomach was full. But he also was, you know, into. Look, they were trying to be grown ups. That's all it is, I think.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. And they. For, for lack of it. And they are it, right?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

College. They're grown ups.

[James Petregallo]

He's got a mustache and he's remodeling kitchens. That's a grown up. That's what grown ups do. Yeah. That's crazy. And Eddie, you know, kind of same thing. He's. He's a grown up. They're both grown ups. But now Eddie, by the way, is kind of known as kind of an obsessive compulsive, overachiever kind of a guy. He's not the smartest guy in the world, Eddie, but he does what he puts his mind to kind of thing. So he's kind of an average IQ kind of guy, but did really well in high school and in college at Thiel as well. He majored in political science at one point. Eddie is going to be president of the student government too. And Pratt was a parliamentarian. So there you go. Pratt was the interpreter of Robert's rules of order, whatever the fuck that is. Don't know what that is. Now, they say in the fraternity house, Eddie would always keep his, like, room locked and shit like that. He was very private.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

And he said he didn't want people stealing his shit, basically, which, understandable. He was a treasurer of one point of the fraternity and hatched a fundraising plan to repay the fraternity's debts. But after a while, he kind of pissed everybody off, put it that way. So in December of 86, which is the middle of both of their junior years, he moves out into an off campus house and asks Butch if he wants to come with him. So Butch does. So they end up living together. And a person who was dating Butch, a woman named Vicky, said, I thought it was a good move. Well, yeah, now you don't have to jerk him off in a frat house now you can do it in a regular house. Bunch of guys standing outside with the fucking glass up against the window or the door. You don't have to do that anymore.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That was nice to have just one guy that I was worried about blowing.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Now it's much better. She said that Eddie, quote, seemed to be more mature than the other guys as far as work was concerned, which, I mean, he's a guy who brought an attache case to the first grade. So he always seems like he wants to at least project this maturity leveling up thing. Yeah, yeah. This business, I'm an important person type of deal. And I don't know if that's growing up with a dad who had his ass kissed by people. And I think maybe that's part of it. He wanted to be like that too. I'm a big important man, you know what I mean? So it's interesting. Now, why did they move out of their fraternity house in the middle of their junior year? Seems like if you're in a frat, you're there to party in the house. That's the point. Well, they got kicked out of the house is the point. They got blackballed. They got blackballed from the frat. Both of them? Yeah, they're the frat brothers, believed that the two of them were responsible for a 1987 burglary at this frat house and one right next door as well, which tons of electronic equipment was stolen. Stereos, VCRs, TV sets, anything like that was taken. Anything that could be sold, appliances, things of that nature. So that happened on March 3, 1987. And by halfway through the year, they're. They're out of the frat House they said about $3,500 worth of shit was taken from in this robbery. So now the thing is, they did do it. They did. Rob did it. Yes. They both. Yeah, it's these two that did it. Now, Ed says that Butch instigated the burglaries as a way of getting some things he never had, which seems like a. Like a stretch, you know what I mean? Eddie seems like the type that talks you into doing shit, not the other way around. It's just not the way it is. And Butch said he told other people that Eddie talked him into it. So I believe that. More they said the arguments that Eddie made to him was that the burglaries aren't going to hurt anybody except the insurance company.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

They're not just. They'll just file a claim. They'll get money for it. Who cares? It's fine. You know, we'll get helped out. It's all good. One person said you could tell that Butch respected him. If Ed convinced him of something, then Butch would be fully convinced. Talked him into it. Now the police question both Pratt and Eddie here, Butch and Eddie, about the burglaries, but file no charges. They both deny it, but, you know, that's that. When they. They asked him, do you know anybody who could have done this? Everybody's response was those two. So sure. Now, there was somebody. An ex girlfriend of Eddie's came forward at one point and told police that she had seen good packed in the attic of his. Of his house that they rent. But then hours later, she came back to the police station and recanted it and said, no, I don't know what I'm talking about. Never mind. I didn't see it. Which is a crazy thing to do.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I seen it. No, I didn't see.

[James Petregallo]

No, I didn't see. I don't. Where do you get that from? Like, why were you here? I guess she could have said, I just mad at him because he's my ex boyfriend and I wanted to fuck him over. So I don't know what he's. What she said, but either way, police also heard from two different fraternity brothers who lost equipment but accepted $500 from Swiger to shut up. He paid them off.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He only stole $3,500 worth of shit and he's paying $700 in hush money.

[James Petregallo]

A thousand so far.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

So, I mean, that's. Right away. That's a lot of money going out. Gone. So they said half the amount they think came from Pratt, who borrowed $500 from his family. So that's what it was. We need to pull in 500 bucks a piece and pay these guys off, basically. So late 1987 here, kind of mid 1987 here. They're still very close. They live together, they're hanging out together. They're still best friends. Butch and Eddie, they both take work study jobs at Old Town Furniture in Greenville, where Eddie is made assistant manager by Linda Carlin, his girlfriend slash boss. There you go. And they hire on at Butch as well.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So this enterprise, this furniture seems. Store seems to be making some good money here. Swiger met Linda at the local gym, Pro body, like we said. And so in. He's just like operating in her universe, basically.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Going to her gym, meeting her, then living in her house. After a while, hired by her as the assistant manager of the furniture store. It's very involved and enmeshed very quickly here. So there's that. And now Pratt, Butchie ended up going out with Linda's roommate, who was also in her mid-30s.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Look at these guys go.

[James Petregallo]

I'm telling you, they're just like, we're 35, do you understand? Look at our girlfriends. They're 35 and so are we. Look at this mustache, 35 thing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And 35 year old successful women.

[James Petregallo]

Good, bad, not bad at all. That's a woman named Liz Wertz. They were going out, the two boys, Butch and Eddie, talked about moving to Pittsburgh after graduation. But then plans for graduate school at University of Pittsburgh fell through. And then they started talking about going to Philadelphia and starting a business together there after they go to graduate school. Now, spring of 1988, here, Linda is so into Eddie that at her house, a friend of hers said she came over and Ed showed this person a room that he said Linda had just set up for him before he came and moved in. And the guy, the person said it was set up, quote, as a law office, complete with leather top desk, chairs, files, and even law books.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is he a lawyer?

[James Petregallo]

He wants to be. He wants to go to law school. So she sets him up with a law office in her house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Law library.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I was gonna say. I don't even know how she knew what books to buy. Like, just give me your regular old lawyer collection. I suppose so. May 15, 1988 is graduation day at Thiel College here. And they're. They end up having their graduation party together. Even Butch and Eddie, they have a cake. They go out to dinner with the two families, the press and the Swigers. And Butcher's mom makes A big cake for them. And they, you know, they're all happy. They're making plans for the future. They're saying that Swagger wants to get his law degree and Butchie wants to get an mba.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And they would pool their expertise and somehow turn this into a business.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. One of their high school friends said Butch was very impressed with Ed as an intelligent, well spoken person at that point. So the two families went out to dinner. The restaurant was. This is Butch's brother said was very elegant. They went out to a real nice restaurant, jacket required type of place. Oh, yeah, one of those kind of joints. So they said. This guy says he really liked Mike Swiger, the brother. He said Mike Swiger was real cool. He said. He gave me his address and telephone number. We made plans to contact each other. They both even have a brother named Mike. It's Mike Pratt. Mike Swiger. We made plans to contact each other to go out sometime, socialize or whatever. He seemed like a nice man to me and my family, so that's nice. Mike is three years older than Butch, and he's known as the responsible brother. He's the guy. Yeah. He would work after school to help out with the family, while Butch would, you know, hang out with his buddies and play sports and that kind of shit. Yeah, he's the older brother kind of taking it. So Butch is always the one doing the bunny ears on the camera and the pictures and that kind of shit. And he's the silly. He's the silly one. He's the youngest, so he's got no worries. It's one of those things. It's nice to be the youngest, I think, when it comes to show and.

[Jimmy Wisman]

To have like a. Be a little coddled for that. A little coddled for polio.

[James Petregallo]

Little coddled for everything. Yeah, a little coddled for all of that. But his brother said he was great. He made everyone laugh all the time. Now, Mike is also very protective of his brother, which I bet he would be if your brother was sick when you were younger, too. You would be. He said when they were kids, when mom was working a lot, he said, I saw to it that he had something to eat, that he did his homework, that he wasn't hanging around with a bad crowd. I looked out for him, sure. So that's nice. Anyway, to have three years older is old enough to respect, but also old enough to think is, like, really cool, because you're kind of close in age, so that's. That's a good age difference. Now on graduation day, when this is all going on. Pratt here had expected to keep working at the furniture store, but that's what everybody expected. But that day, he said, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm not working. And they said, why? And he said, so my plans have changed. And he said, I need to be. You need to pick me up in a few days. I got to get out of here. So, like, that's weird.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So the next night after the graduation party, they. This is the night after graduation. This is Liz, his girlfriend Linda's roommate said that Linda woke her up about midnight and said, your boyfriend Butch is seeing another woman. Oh, seeing another woman. And then. So Linda called Ed, said, bring Butch to my house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We gotta talk.

[James Petregallo]

Summons him. Bring him here. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit from our friends at shutterfly. Oh, shutterfly.com, that's absolutely right. Shutterfly believes the moments that matter the most deserve a photo book. You want to remember these things. They're big for big moments. Weddings, graduations. That trip that you took that you've been saving up for for five years. And, you know, that's a big deal. They're also for everyday moments. So it doesn't have to be a big, giant thing. You can turn your Instagram feed into a coffee table book. You can make a. An annual memory book for your kids so they can, you know, as the years go by, they can know that's there. You can create a family cookbook. There's endless possibilities. Let's be realistic here. Your imagination is the only thing that can hold you down here with Shutterfly. I'm putting together one of us on the road. That's one that I'm putting together right now. I think that would be pretty cool. So that's kind of what I'm doing with it. Here we have an exclusive offer for our listeners. New customers get a free 8x8 photo book with promo code Small Town at Shutterfly. Enter code at checkout. See promotion details for more info. But get your free 8x8 photo book with the promo code small [e-mail]. make something that means something with Shutterfly.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petregallo]

So they do words here. The woman, Liz, and Butch talked, but on the way out of her room, he ran into Linda and Ed Swiger. Ed was carrying an Uzi.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

An Uzi. Not a regular gun. A fucking Uzi.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Big gun. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Well, little gun, but shoots a lot of bullets.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, it's generally 9 millimeter, but that's a lot.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, shoots a lot. A lot of volume there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So Liz said that that Swiger followed Pratt out the front door. Then she heard a gunshot.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

But nobody was hurt or anything. Just I don't know if he fired the gun up in the air, like, get the hell out of here, or what. Okay, now that's really interesting. So the next night, Liz, Butch's girlfriend, said she drove over to their apartment and said that they acted like nothing happened. It was Eddie and Butch just hanging out, like, drinking a beer together, chilling, watching fucking, you know, football game or whatever. So they were like, that's weird. But within 24 hours, Bill, Butchie packed up and left. He was gone. Took the fuck off.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Gone?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He didn't call anyone to do anything. His father said, quote, he showed up with a U haul. That was that. He just showed up. He was home. All of a sudden, we didn't know what the fuck out. Real weird shit that is. So that's May 15th, 16th, May 22nd, 1988. There's a huge fire at Old Town Furniture's warehouse in Greenville, where they work. Okay. Giant fire, they said they found. They tried to put in a $300,000 insurance claim, and it was turned down due to the presence of an accelerant in the debris. In other words, arson. Somebody burned it down. So, yeah, they suspect arson, obviously. And a big reason why they suspect arson not only from the accelerant, but is that there was a phone call that came into the police department right before the fire started. I mean, right before. One of the officers said, a minute before the fire alarm came in, someone called and wanted to speak with an officer. There wasn't an officer at the station. The caller left a message and just said to tell them that BP called bp. Butch Pratt? They think so when interviewing somebody the next day, the cop learned that it was most likely Butch Pratt, who was the BP that came to that called the police station.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Anybody else like that? Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Pratt denied making the call, though. He said, I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. So the guy said it was a strange twist of fate. I don't know to this day. Who called? Not sure. Now, the old Town Furniture warehouse had been burglarized four times in the previous two years, by the way. And the same name kept coming up in the police reports. And every single burglary, it was Ed Swiger.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, Ed.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. He's the assistant manager. So it came up over and over and over again. And Butch, because he works there too. But Ed is the main guy that they're looking at here. So. May 27, 1988. All right, the five days after the fire here, Pratt is brought to the. This is Butchie, brought to the police station in Munhall and asked about the fire because he was. You know, he's worked there and he knows Ed and all that kind of thing. Instead of talking about the fire, he tells them about the burglaries. Oh, yeah. He spills it about the burglary. He said, we did talk about fire. I don't talk about the fire. I don't know shit about fire. But we did do this, this, this and that. We stole all this shit. And by the way, they involved Mike Swiger as well, because all the shit they stole, it was sold off by Mike Swiger at his college. They gave it all to him and he sold it off there so they could. Yeah, it's. It's perfect crime. You know what I mean? Except for that one of the people confessed to it. So.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Except for somebody talking.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah. Butch confesses to two burglaries at Thiel College during Easter break, 1987. He said that he and Eddie had stolen about $3,500 worth of TVs, stereos, and compact disc players from the Delta Sigma Phi house where they lived and the Phi Theta Phi house next door. So they went into both. Then Mike sold the equipment at Case Western Reserve University, where he went. Now, they said a lot of people that knew him, and even the cop said. One of the cops said that Butch was a shy, really nice kid, maybe a little naive. He was a follower type, kind of an all American kid. If he did anything wrong, I think he was led to it. He'd just follow. So everybody thinks that Butchie is just kind of weak and will follow.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Just come along, go along.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, go along, get along type of guy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

There it is.

[James Petregallo]

There you go. But does he know about the fire? That's the main thing they want to know about.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's got to know something.

[James Petregallo]

That's A bigger deal. We're talking about a warehouse and insurance fraud at this point and arson rather than, you know, little burglary. Yeah. So he denies any involvements in the fire, but he does say, if somebody set a fire, I probably know what they're trying to get rid of. And that would be financial records, because according to different court documents, this furniture store either made about $4,000 a week in profit or lost money. They don't know which. So we're pretty sure they think that Linda was embezzling. I think. Is the. Allegedly the thought here that she's been taking money or Ed's been stealing money, or someone's been stealing a lot of money, and they're trying to destroy financial records. Records. That's the point of the fire. So they said that the. This is. Both Linda and Dr. John Steele filed court documents accusing unnamed former employees of embezzling more than $100,000 from the store.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So someone might want to destroy financial records if they were on the hook for that type of thing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

So they said that there was some apprehension here at the District Justices. Justice. Yeah, District Justice's office. When Butch talked to a young woman who was sitting on a bench in the hearing room, this person said. Later, when we came out of the office, I asked him who she was, and he said it was a spy. Someone went to someone sent to oversee what was going on. It was someone he knew, this person said. I laughed and said, spy, huh? That's what it looked like. There was nobody else there. She sure had guts enough to come there and listen. So maybe she was a spy, this person said. His concern grew when Butch told him that Ed Swiger had been accepted at law school because Pratt just implicated him in burglaries which will keep him out of law school. You don't get accepted to law school if you have any criminal shit. Yeah, they don't want any part of.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That because it kind of contradicts itself.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, law school and medical school, you have to be squeaky fucking clean to get into those things. So, uh, the one guy here said, I know how important that is. You can't get a traffic ticket if you're accepted at a law school. Based on our conversation and other things, I told him. I told him, you shouldn't go back there ever. Meaning to Greenville, where he is, because he might be pissed at you, you know? And he. He told him, I wouldn't go back without bringing a whole bunch of friends with you or something. People to watch your back, basically. Oh, so now Butch is very worried. He, her ma, his mom said that he found. She found Butch alone and distraught in her house. Basically, she said, I don't want to. He was telling her, I don't want to go to jail. I don't know what to do about the robbery. And then he told her what he told the police. She said, why don't you see the family attorney, Robert Garshak, who also will be around for the remainder of the story. And Garshak, by the way, would say that he thought that Butchie was very. Not streetwise was the words he used, too. He said that Butch told him he'd overheard Linda and Ed Swiger planning the fire at the furniture store also. So here's the fire story. How did the fire happen? Let's find out now, is what they.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Told the insurance company or what they.

[James Petregallo]

No, this is the real deal. This is the real thing that happened. Remember Mike Swiger, Ed's little brother there? Well, he just always. Always wants to hang out with his brother and make his brother think he's cool. Yeah, Always wants his brother to think he's cool. And he said that Ed was two years older and always bigger and seemed. Always seem more interested in beating Michael up than hanging out with him. One of those things, they're too close in age, you know, two years is they're going to fight. He said, my whole life, I wanted him to like me. That's what Mike says. That's all he was after. So then when they were in college, Mike at Case and Ed at Thiel College, Ed tried to be friends with him. He said that's when Ed started, you know, being, like, friends with me, my brother, his little brother. He said it seemed like he was making a real attempt, right? He's like, cool. This is good. I want to be friends with my brother. So Ed called one day in the spring of 1988 and asked him to come to Pennsylvania. So Michael took off and went to go see his brother. Ed said the furniture store where he worked needed a security system installed. Will you come help me install it? Sure. So Mike said, sure, he said. But when he arrived at the furniture store, he said that's when Ed's real plan started to crystallize. He said he wanted to torch the store so that his girlfriend, who partially owned it, could get some insurance money out of it. So Michael said he wanted to impress his brother, and he helped. He said that Michael, he's the one who sprinkled the place with lighter fluid, trying to help his brother out so that's. That's how. There's another person involved in it, too. But those two are the main culprits there. Now, June 16, 1988, okay, there's a woman named Theresa Walker Walkel. Chick. W, A, K, U, L, C, H, I, C or K. I'm sorry, last letter. K. Wakal, Chick. Now, Teresa here, she is the young lady that Butch has been interested in that her girlfriend that his girlfriend Liz heard about.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So on June 16, 1988, he sent her flowers, saying. He basically sent over flowers because he's going to go visit her the next day in Akron. All right? So he asked his mom, because he was on the way into town. He asked his mom, would you have flowers sent? I'll give you cash. So he does that. That day, June 16, he's getting his shit together here. And Teresa and her roommate Caroline Luley went driving around Akron that day with Linda Carlin. The day that she got the flowers. They were planning on what would happen after Pratt arrived on the bus. So Pratt thinks he is going to see Theresa to hook up with her. Meanwhile, Linda is taking Teresa and Teresa's friend around, talking about, what are we going to do with this butcher when he gets here? He's walking into a fucking ambush that is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, man, that is gonna be ugly, dude. Ugly. And now you're going out with her and I told you, and he's. You'd get right back on the bus and just sit there. I'll go wherever this fucking thing is headed. I don't care.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This is worse than Sally, Jesse. All of them combined.

[James Petregallo]

Well, what is it? Where's it going? Charlotte. Great. Take me there. I don't give a shit. I'll figure out a way to get back once I get out of this goddamn place.

[Jimmy Wisman]

As long as there's no. As long as there's no Jerry Springer or Sally Jesse or any of those fucking talk show shits.

[James Petregallo]

And they're just at the Greyhound station, too, which is the ultimate. That's the ultimate venue. That's the ultimate venue for a relationship fucking throwdown. As the. The Greyhound station in Akron. That's right.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Your girlfriend and your mistress are going to confront you in front of strangers at the Greyhound, stat.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ. By the way, you watched the Jerry Springer documentary, right?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, we talked about it. I love how they have the Springer triangle, they called it, which was an area of the country where like 90% of the guests came from.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They all came from.

[James Petregallo]

It was so funny. This is what we call the Springer triangle. So anyway, he's supposed to get there on the bus and they're going to ambush him. And the idea though is to allow Ed to have a chance to talk with him. They're going to ambush him and then say, ed wants to talk to you because we need to work this out. He's got to go to law school. We got to figure all this out. So, yeah, apparently that Theresa is supposed to pick him up at the bus station and all of that kind of shit. So June 17th, this is when this is. Butch is supposed to come to Akron. Butch had been working 12 hour days roofing and cement work and doing cement work that week. He's trying to save up for a car. He doesn't have a car at this point. Yeah, so that's what he wants. And he was trying to. He's been working his ass off. And his brother said he came down from his upstairs bedroom, took out his pay envelope and left $300 in cash for his mother to hold for him over the weekend. And then he took $100 and put it into his wallet. He said he was going to Akron to see Theresa, who, you know, he met her through Ed Swiger. So Ed knows her too. The, the previous afternoon is when he sent the flowers, by the way, the flowers, the note said, miss you, we'll see you on Friday. Love, Butch.

[Jimmy Wisman]

True.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, very nice. Now, solid words. Two weeks earlier, he had seen Teresa. He drove, he. He rented a car because he didn't have a car. He rented a car to go to a graduation party for Theresa's brother in Yorkville, Ohio.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This is a man in a relationship.

[James Petregallo]

Oh yeah, he's trying to get him, but he's 22. I mean, this is what 22 year olds do. This is why you shouldn't get married when you're 22, because that's not in your system yet. So he just trying to save money for a car. So he said a rental car. He didn't want to blow his budget on that. So that is why he wanted to take the bus there instead. So he called his friend Ed Werrer, and Ed gave him a ride to the Greyhound station in downtown Pittsburgh. A lovely, lovely location, just beautiful. In his bag he carried some shit. He had a thank you note from his mother to Teresa's family because they sent something. So she sent a thank you note. So he's got all sorts of stuff like that. He also has two plastic containers with leftover fruit salad and stuffed cabbage. For his trip, his mom packed him a. Wow Packed him a thing there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's nice to go. To go. Lunch.

[James Petregallo]

A fruit salad and stuffed cabbage is. And then you're gonna put this kid on a bus. Jesus Christ. He's gonna fucking. Yeah, he's gonna wipe that place out with his gas. Man, that is gonna.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's a lot of fiber.

[James Petregallo]

He's gonna be people hanging out the windows of this fucking thing. Holy shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

The downtown. Is that. Isn't that where I rented a car to go to Columbus?

[James Petregallo]

We know exactly where the downtown bus station is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This is not good.

[James Petregallo]

No, that's why it's a lovely location. And you didn't say anything. I was like. We were there. It was terrible. Remember that? It was ugly. Shit is ugly.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I said to the guy, I asked him, a lot of people rent cars from here. And he goes, not really. He's like, we usually just move them from here to the airport.

[James Petregallo]

It's a bus station. So, you know. Oh, people probably drop them off this fucking bus. Yeah, they probably drop them off there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

To avoid having us wait at the airport. I get it. Okay.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And it's cheaper to drop it off. Not at the airport. There's an airport fee when you drop.

[James Petregallo]

Off a rental car. So this particular day, Mike Swiger was visiting his family. I'm sorry, not Mike Swiger. Mike Pratt. Butch's brother. Getting the brothers mixed up here. He was visiting his family that day also and saw him packing up to go to Akron. Saw Butchie packing up. He said, he and I were in the house alone. I was there when Butch was packing a suitcase, and I was there when he walked out the door. So he heads to the Greyhound station. His friend Ed drove him there. He is going to the station to catch a 1205 bus to Akron from Pittsburgh. And he said. Last thing he said to me was, this is Ed talking about Butch. Last thing he said to me was, take it easy, boss. I'll see you Sunday night. Because he was supposed to call him up. You're supposed to pick him up Sunday night. But Sunday night came and he said he never called. No, Butch got no call from him, so he just went down to pick him up. He said maybe he couldn't get to a phone or he doesn't have a quarter, so he just be there. He went down there. Never showed up on the bus he was supposed to come in on. And then Monday, he's still not home. His mom went to work for her shift at the Elder Crest Nursing Home. Elder Crest. Jesus. Euphemistic.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I know those greyhounds take A long time, but. But that's three days.

[James Petregallo]

That seems like a lot. Yeah. He's supposed to get back Sunday, so now Teresa is the one who's supposed to pick him up. She goes to the University of Akron and she's the one who invited him, but she, she says he never showed up. He never. I waited at the bus station for him. He never got here. So Ed saw, didn't. He said he didn't see him get on the bus. He didn't sit there and wait for him to get on the bus. He dropped him off. He said, take it easy. He said, all right, later. And you pull away, it's not your kid, it's your friend, you know what I mean? So he said, I never saw him get on the bus. But he. Teresa says he wasn't the station. He never showed up in Akron, though. She said so. And they also asked around and there were no reports of a 5 foot 8, 180 pound kid with red hair, long sleeved white T shirt, light blue shorts and new Nike high tops getting off the bus on Friday afternoon in Akron either. No reports of that. Nobody said, yeah, I saw that guy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Very well dressed fella, jumping on a Greyhound.

[James Petregallo]

That is some 80s fashion there. He is killing it. He's killing it, but it sounds like you'd remember the guy, you know what I mean? Yeah, type of deal. So that's how that goes now. June 21, 1988, this is four days later. Butch's mom reports him missing because she hasn't heard anything from him in four days. She asks around. Teresa says, I don't know. He didn't show up. Ed says, I didn't see him get on the bus, but I dropped him off. He just seemed to disappear somewhere between Pittsburgh and Akron, vanish into thin air. So yeah, she said that. They said maybe. Do you think, the cops asked, do you think he ran away from this burglary thing that's dangling over him? Could that be? And she said, no, he wasn't worried about it because his father got him a good lawyer and it was all under control. It's his first offense. And the lawyer had told him, it's your first offense. Your record is, is perfect. Otherwise you have all these awards and everything, you'll get probation. You know what I mean? You don't fuck up again, it'll. It'll be gone.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure.

[James Petregallo]

So, yeah, and the cop said, the Smalley is his name, the investigator. He said in this sort of situation, he said, quote, they usually pop up alive. He's like I wasn't too worried about him. Yeah, it's. A guy's all athletic and you know all that, so he probably ran away. Then the cop was like, you know, the mothers don't know every girl, the guy's mom, everything. Yeah. What if he met a chick on the bus and went somewhere with her? What if he. You never know what young guys do. He has no responsibilities right now. He doesn't have a job. He's not like he was engaged to this Teresa chick. He could have done anything. So a couple days after he's reported missing, Ed Wearer, the guy who dropped him off at the bus station, and their friend Rich Baker, they go out on looking for him? Basically, yeah, they just look for him. They drove all the way to Akron and talked to Teresa. They're doing like their own PI work here. They went to Thiel College as well, asked around there and all that kind of shit. But they said nobody at the college was more helpful than Ed Swiger. Yeah, he was very helpful. And his also Linda Carlin, also very helpful.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They should be.

[James Petregallo]

They said they. When they talked to them, she. They said that Linda went right to the phone and made a series of calls asking if anyone had seen him. They said, well, we didn't know he was missing, so let's try to find him. And everybody was helping. Ed then drove them around town, checking with people who'd played baseball or gone fishing with Butch or just anywhere that Butch would hang out or had friends. They went around to every single place and asked, have you seen Butch? Have you seen Butcher look for him?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Couldn't find Butch. Nowhere to be found. So Rich Baker said he knew something wasn't right. He's one of the friends that's looking for him. He said they all seemed a little too nice. Yeah, a little too nice, a little weird. So then Baker and were they go home to Munhall and just join the Pratt family in waiting? Basically everybody waits. So several friends said they knew Butch had talks with police and all that kind of thing. They said that, but he. He didn't help set the fire? They don't think so. Why would he worry about some small time burglaries? That's not a big deal. It doesn't make any sense why he would take off. But Wearer said he might have taken off, though. They said they don't know. Maybe he didn't want to go to jail. Maybe he didn't want to be forced to put Ed away either.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

So his friend Ed Wearer said if anyone could go out and just live in the woods. It was Butcher. He was smart enough and tough enough. Mentally tough enough. They said he might have just got off the bus and went and lived in the woods. We don't know which.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So wild.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he. He got off a bus somewhere in the midway point and just wandered off from the station for the first wooded patch he could find and decide to live there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Maybe he caught wind of these two broads about to. About to ambush him down at the bus station.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus Christ, man. So that is, you know, the week it happens. That's June 88. And time goes by, a year goes by. No butch.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Mid 1989, still no butch.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No idea where he's at?

[James Petregallo]

No idea. No one's heard from him. They don't know. And now Rich Baker, he's one of the guys, too, that still thinks that. That he's hiding.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He says that he thinks that he and Ed probably, quote, worked something out. And basically, you go away and don't tell on me until all this legal shit's over. And then I'll forget about what happened that you told on me type of thing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So he said that's what they think happened because they were best friends. And he thinks that's probably what would have happened. They would have worked that shit out. Poor Rose Pratt, Butch's mom. This poor lady, she started sleeping on the living room couch just in case he came home. She wanted to jump off the couch as soon as the door opened to greet him. Type of thing. She said she can't understand why he hadn't called. It's just. It's been a year he's not calling me. I'm his mother, and she's freaked out. So we get to September of 1989.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What the hell?

[James Petregallo]

September 1989. September 18, 1989, to be exact. Linda Carlin's home here, which is at new big brick home that she lives in. It's a beautiful, big, giant property. Gorgeous. She goes on vacation to Arizona to see a new boyfriend of hers.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She's dating now.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, she's dating somebody else. Yeah, because we'll talk about it. But Ed has moved on to somebody else as well. Oh, now she. While she's in Arizona, Linda, her house burns down.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This lady, all her shit's on fire.

[James Petregallo]

Fire fucking follows her. So stay out of Arizona. You'll burn the whole state down. Jesus. So during the investigation, she said, well, the only person I can think. The only person I have any fear of, because they said it looks like it's it's been started. This is arson.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So they said, anybody want to set your house on fire that you might know? And she said, my ex boyfriend, Ed Swiger. That's all I can think of. That's it. But, you know, who knows? So the fire, by the way, 1217 Highland Road is the address. One of the cops investigating said the fire, quote, brought it all to light. If it had not been for the arson fire, I wouldn't have been looking at Mrs. Carlin and her dealings and her basic background because they're suspicious of her, obviously. So they go into her background and find out a bunch of shit that they didn't know before. Like she's connected to Ed Swiger, who was their main suspect in the furniture store fire. So car. She had just moved into this home a month earlier, by the way. It was like a brand new house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, in Ohio.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. No, this is across the border in Pennsylvania.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay, got it.

[James Petregallo]

This fire which caused more than $100,000 in damage back then. Think about. Yeah, was set in a second floor bedroom and they said it was only. That was only set to cover a burglary. There had been a burglary they figured out happened and someone set a fire to cover that up. And they rule at arson. So what are Eddie and Mike up to at this time? Let's find that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Where are they?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, because they're not with Linda. They're not hanging out with Butch, obviously. Well, Ed is a second year law student at Temple University.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Doing great.

[James Petregallo]

Doing great. And Mike is a sophomore in the mechanical engineering department at Case Western Reserve University.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Couple fellas doing fine.

[James Petregallo]

They're doing great for themselves. Rose Pratt is not going to give up finding her son, by the way. She is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You shouldn't know.

[James Petregallo]

She wants to find him. Yeah, she is. Basically for the past 15 months, has been doing nothing but investigating. Writing letters. She's writing letters to the blood banks. Did this kid come in irs she writes letters to. Do he file his taxes? Yeah, if his taxes are filed, he's alive. So Social Security, they say. Has he anything going on with that? Is he paid anything? Is he anything like that? Even the Salvation army where she knows he's donated things before even there. Has he come in to donate anything or to buy anything? Have you seen it?

[Jimmy Wisman]

That is the thing about disappearing people. When they disappear, they continue donating to their charitable.

[James Petregallo]

Well, usually, yeah. They still, they still have extra stuff they got to get rid of. You know what I mean? Like I know, I'm trying to stay low and lay Low here, but I got like five pairs of pants I'm never going to use. I really got to send them. Never going to wear these. I'm telling you right now, they're out of style. So basically, anywhere that he could have, may have, or has been in the past, just. That's anything. So she hired a private detective, draining her cash and everything else. She hand lettered 50 posters that she mailed to Greenville to have put up. She. This is fucked up. There was a crank call two days before Christmas in 1987 reporting that Butch was at an address. And the address didn't exist.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What the fuck?

[James Petregallo]

That's fucked up. Somebody. Because it was in the paper a lot. Everybody knew who she was. So some fucking asshole on the December 23rd decided to fuck with this poor lady. That's awful, man. She even went downtown because the cops had discovered a severed head somewhere. So she went downtown to look at a severed head to see if it's her son, Jesus. Turns out it has long hair and it's not red. So it's not Butch. So she's relieved that, obviously. October 5, 1989. It's been some time. He disappeared. June 17, 1988. This is about 9:00am the day before, at about 2:15pm at the Sharon, Pennsylvania police station. We had. Linda Carlin came there and they said they sat her down because they're talking about her arson, the fire still. This is because it happened less than a month ago. And this is from the prosecutor, quote, basically, she told us she was afraid of Ed Swiger. She told us about, quote, what he had done to Butch.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I guess your answer is, what do you know?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Well, let's hear it here. Come on, lay it out, sweetheart.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What do you know? That my answer is going to depend tremendously on the information that the police already possessed.

[James Petregallo]

So, yeah, what had he. What he had done to Butch now? Yeah, yeah. She said that Linda claimed that she was just a player used by Swiger. And wouldn't say why they did what they did to Butch.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So she just caves.

[James Petregallo]

She just caves and said, Ed killed Butch. I don't know anything about it. I was just a player used by him. And I don't know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But she's going to say what happened here in a minute. We'll talk all about it. But the cop said it's our theory that Butch was going to turn on Ed Swiger. And Swiger didn't want him to testify against him in the Greenville burglaries and arson. So anyway, Linda, they go, well, how can you prove that this happened?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, what do you got?

[James Petregallo]

This is also your ex boyfriend. So how do we know you're not just trying to set your ex boyfriend up to get busted or get. Just have an inconvenience in his life? She said, well, I'll show you where he's buried. And they went, we'd love to see that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Well, the fuck out.

[James Petregallo]

Turns out he is buried on one of her properties at her farmhouse.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Stop it.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. At her farmhouse. Buried in the fucking ground.

[Jimmy Wisman]

How the fuck did they do that?

[James Petregallo]

It was one of the places she had. Well, we'll talk.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, how did they get him from the fuck.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, don't worry. Yeah, from the bus station to a farmhouse in another place. Oh, it's an interesting fucking tale. It's. Dude, it's so twisted and fucked up what they did to this kid. So they. She says he's right there. Exact. Gives an exact location right where she said they dig and that's exactly where they find him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So you know exactly the whole time.

[James Petregallo]

She knew the whole fucking time what happened here? Yeah, his obviously decomposed body is. Came up an hour and a half or an hour and a half, a year and a half. In the ground.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He was wearing a T shirt, shorts, and brand new high white tennis shoes. Exactly what he left in hands were cuffed behind his back.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, what the hell.

[James Petregallo]

And we'll talk about this too. He's also tied with a necktie that they're going to be able to trace and we'll get to that in a minute. So, yeah, this is what's going on here. This is what prompted Linda. Linda said she would have never came forward except the fire at her house made her come forward.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Expose.

[James Petregallo]

Well, because she said this made her decide to, quote, blow the whistle on the Swaggers because that she assumed she was next on the hit list. She thought that fire was a warning. So I got to get the fuck. Yeah, so she said, I'm turning them in. They're trying to. They're going to kill me next.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So she picked them.

[James Petregallo]

Scared the shit out of her. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Scared her. Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Scared her good. So that's why she did the opposite.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Of what a fire would do with in theory of doing it.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. The whole point was to shut her the fuck up probably. And instead made a run to the cops. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

This is like in the mob when they. Some the FBI goes to somebody and they're like, we got a recording of your boss saying they're gonna kill You. And then they go, all right, well, I guess I'm on your team now. Fuck it. So, yeah, poor Butch had his hands cuffed behind his back and his legs were tied with what is identified later as Michael Swiger's necktie.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, shit.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. He has. Every bone in his face is fractured. Every bone in his face. He's been.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He just beat him.

[James Petregallo]

Beaten beyond recognition. Then even worse, because he could have suffocated as well. He's so decomposed. They're having a hard time telling in 1989 what did it to him. But the cops here said, the chief of police said if Lynn Carlin hadn't come forward, we'd still be under the assumption that Butch Pratt was still alive. They thought he was alive. They wanted to find him. Not to save him or help him. They wanted to find him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I told you so.

[James Petregallo]

Because he blew his arraignment. He didn't come. So he's a wanted man. There's a warrant out for his arrest because he didn't come to his arraignment on the burglary that was supposed to happen. And he didn't show up because he was dead. So the cop also said she felt it was Ed Swiger who burned her house down. She thought she'd get Ed in trouble. That was also part of it, too. A little bit of payback, they think, too. So that's what happened. Now, Butch's mom, they tell her about this, and she must be fucking devastated, because I don't think she's. She didn't. She still didn't get to the point where she was like, he's dead, and I just want to know he's dead. She thought he was alive on the couch. And a lot. The cops were telling her, he's alive, he's alive, he's alive. He's just scared. Don't worry about it. He'll come back. One of the. These days, she said, I tried to think positive, that one day Butch would come home, married, with five kids behind him, and say, look, mom, look what I brought you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I brought you five grandkids.

[James Petregallo]

I brought you. Which I'd be really pissed you got married and had kids and didn't fucking contact me. What the fuck? What's wrong with you?

[Jimmy Wisman]

I got no pictures of them.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's. Christ, my mom would stab me if I did that. You can't just come in and be like, hey, you got married, had five kids. Here they are. Can you watch them tonight, by the way, we're gonna have a Date night. Is that cool?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Never Parenthood.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Remember that? Cool. What? Cool in there Cool. I like Jason Robards going cool. His name is cool. So funny. So she said he was the all American boy. So another hair reaction. The police chief said at the time it was about the only thing anyone ever talked about. Two years running and it was still the top story in the county that where the fuck is Butch? There's so many articles of where's Butch? Where's Butcher? Anybody seen Butch Pratt? We can't find Butch Pratt. So October 6th, the next day, Eddie and Mike are arrested. Sure. Yeah, Both of them. Both brothers are arrested. Not Mike Pratt. Mike Swiger, by the way, just to be clear here. So, yeah, at the time of his arrest, Eddie is a second year law student. He's on academic probation. He might flunk out, but he's there. He's second year. He is also engaged to who? Teresa Walker. Chick. Oh, yeah? Yep. He moved in on Butchie's girl too.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yep. That's insane. And they're living together. When they found him, he was living with Teresa. Engage. And they were like, oh, this is more connections. Be Holy shit. The connections are connecting. Dots are fucking.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Did she know?

[James Petregallo]

Coming together. We'll talk about it. Maybe we'll talk about it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's terrible.

[James Petregallo]

She's a terrible person.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She's a monster.

[James Petregallo]

Wait till you hear exactly what happened. The cops said they were surprised to find her engaged to Ed Swiger, living with him in Philadelphia. I think I shocked Jimmy with that too. Yeah, so the cop said, it was a strange twist when we found out that Teresa was with Ed in Philadelphia. Now Michael was pursuing his engineering degree and had bought a house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's got a home.

[James Petregallo]

He's got a home and all that kind of thing. That is fucking wild. And Teresa and her friend Carolyn Luley had gotten their student teaching and gotten their degrees. So that's what they were doing. They were working in the school district as teachers.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They're just gonna have this disappear forever?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, law students, teachers, homeowning, engineering students, none of this shit. These people don't sound like they'd be involved in any kind of murder plot at all.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What the hell?

[James Petregallo]

Like not one of the four. And somehow it's all four. So police contend that it was Mike or. I'm sorry, that was Eddie, who mastermind the killing because he thought that obviously he'd get implicated in the burglaries and the arson. The chief said Ed was a very manipulative person and he always carried a gun. So anything's possible with that. Basically, the Swiger brothers faced two counts of aggravated murder, one count each of kidnapping, and if convicted of aggravated murder, they could get the death penalty. Because it's in the state of Ohio, it's going to be done. Not in Pennsylvania. Now, Swiger. Apparently, the deal is Swiger had learned that Butch was coming to Akron the day before and made plans to have Teresa and her roommate Carolyn pick him up and take him to Ed. Okay, so they picked him up at the bus station, and Carolyn was driving, and Theresa moved over to get in the middle of the bench seat in the front. And Ed got in on the passenger side, or not Ed. Butch got in the passenger side on the end there. And they drove. And apparently they drove him to a secluded area in Hudson, Ohio, where basically they were told. The girls claim they were told that Ed told them, take Butch there. Take Butch there. Drop him off. Yeah, and I need to talk to him. So just take him here so I can talk to him. Basically, I'll be hiding.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Drop him off at a barn in the middle of nowhere.

[James Petregallo]

Not even in a barn off an old oil well access road.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, for heaven's sake.

[James Petregallo]

So what they did is they tricked him. They. As they were going, they pulled off down this road because Theresa said she had to pee. Now, to get out of the car, Butch has to get out first to let her out because she's in the middle. This car Holland's driving, the driver doesn't get out. So Butch got out. They shut the door and fucking took off on him, bitches.

[Jimmy Wisman]

God damn it.

[James Petregallo]

Left him fucking standing there going, what the fuck? I sent you flowers yesterday.

[Jimmy Wisman]

My mom paid for those.

[James Petregallo]

Holy shit. That's fucked up. They said they left him standing on the gravel service road to an oil well off. That's. That's awful. Now, some people don't believe it. This is going around, and they seem like upstanding people. There's a lot of people. Here is Dorothy Voodragovich, who taught American history to four different Swaggers.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

She said, they're just not guilty. They weren't into anything that would cause a problem. If you knew their father, you'd understand why. He's the type of person that expected them to toe the line, but they. They didn't. They didn't. The lady, the teacher there, Voodragovich, says she has current events classes that she conducts each Friday morning and has avoided any mention of the Swiger murder case, even though it's the only thing that's in the fucking current Events in the town.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Remember? Those were so much fun.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah, that's fun. Shit, I loved them today.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They suck. It's a miserable section.

[James Petregallo]

It's a miserable section for a while. So post 911 got to be kind of a fun. So the newspaper there showed basically. Also, they showed deference to Ed's dad. Ed and Mike's dad when they basically stopped identifying the alleged killers as his sons. Really, they just stopped using their names in the paper because it embarrassed the dad and he's too powerful. A reporter for the Herald Star said. He told me he appreciated it, meaning the father.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Thank you.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, we appreciate you fucking not telling people the truth to keep me better. So. They are the talk of the town, though. It doesn't matter. There's a Hodex nightclub in Tiltonsville where Commissioner Swiger drops by for a beer once in a while. That's the dad. And the guy who owns this joint's about 80 years old. And he said, I don't know what the hell could have happened to those two boys. They were sitting on top of the world. I grew up in the Depression, and these fucking kids. They had everything, these kids. What are they doing? The other one, the manager, the president of the fraternity said they were inseparable. They were so close. I didn't think that one would be capable of murdering the other one. Talking about Adam, Butch. Now, Ed, they sit Ed down and they go, hey, listen, we got some people saying some shit. What up? And he said it was an accident.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So that's going to be our defense. His accident?

[James Petregallo]

His. His story to the cops is me and my brother handcuffed him, put a bag over his head and upper torso and put him in the trunk of Michael's. You know, Accident. Yeah, yeah. You know how accidents happen. That's what he said. That was the thing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So we did this to him and then what?

[James Petregallo]

Now Mike has a different story. Mike is not.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is his story the accidentally suffocated?

[James Petregallo]

No, no, no. Mike is not quite as hardcore as Ed. Ed is. Ed ain't gonna give shit up. For the most part, yeah. Mike's a little more pliable. He's the younger brother. Mike said that his brother, meaning Ed, laughed as he jumped up and down on the chest of Butch Pratt after he was already dead.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, my.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Laughed. That is fucked up. He. Oh, my God. He said that. That Eddie lured Butch out there to the middle of fucking nowhere and he said that he tried to stop Ed from beating him to death. He said he thought we were only there to Talk. That's what Mike said. Mike's whole thing is if I say we were only there to talk, then maybe I'm not going to be in trouble for this. And Mike says he didn't participate at all in the beating or anything like that. He said his brother got carried away by the momentum and magnitude of the whole thing and beat him to death a little too hard. He described Ed slamming Butch's head on the ground and recalling how his brother later laughed and jumped up and down on his body as they were burying him to like push him down. Haha. Wow.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Ed's a bad guy.

[James Petregallo]

He's a bad. He's a dangerous guy. He's a dangerous, manipulative person that will just stop at nothing. No, everybody in his way is his friend. Everybody in his way is expendable. Yeah, he has no loyalty to anybody. He's just best friend, girlfriend, doesn't matter. He's a bad person. He's just a bad guy. No fucking loyalty whatsoever. Like at least Ted Bundy was nice to that lady he went out with for the most part, you know what I mean? Like whatever. But this is like, he's just a dick to everybody. He's just an asshole. He's unhinged, ambitious of just whatever he wants he has to have. And he'll crush anybody in his way. So the investigation helped unravel a lot of shit. Burglaries, arsons, embezzlements, murders. All this stuff that's been open for a long time is getting closed with these two idiots. So they said that. By the way, remember the person who was the spy in the DA's office when Butch was talking about the burglary? Well, they said that unbeknownst to us, this is one of the cops. Unbeknownst to us, she went back to let Linda Carlin and Ed Swiger know that Butch's preliminary hearing was going to happen. And it sounded like Butch was going to testify against Ed so that she was a spy. Audible ignites your next action packed adventure with thrills of every kind. On your command, dive into the Silent Patient by Alex Michalides. A psychological thriller that will keep you guessing until the very end. Masterfully narrated by Jack Hawkins and Louise Freely. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms, unleash your adventurous side with gripping titles. Discover exclusive Audible originals, hotly anticipated new releases and must listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute. Because Audible knows there's no greater thrill than the one that Speaks to you. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery pod that's audible.com wondery pod hey everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our safest sponsor, Simply Safe. The days are getting longer. We got longer daylight hours, which means you might be spending more time away from your house, which gives burglars more time to rob your house. That's what happens here. FBI crime data shows that break ins are more likely during daylight hours than at night, actually, which you don't think of that. But you need to protect your home with Simplisafe's proactive security that helps stop threats before they even happen.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

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[Jimmy Wisman]

So now back to the show. He was right. 100%. He nailed it.

[James Petregallo]

Nailed it. They said before Butch left town that day, we told him not to come back to town anymore. That's his friend. We asked if he felt safe. And Butch, you know, Butch had told his friends that he was avoiding Ed by using an answering machine to screen calls. That's all. I just screen them out and it's fine. So his friend said Roger disappeared a week later, meaning Butch. At the time, we thought he was running scared or got in touch with Ed and worked it all out and ran. So either way, we thought he was hiding. So. October 25th, Carolyn Luley is arrested. She's the driver. October 26th, Therese is arrested.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, they're getting. It's all falling.

[James Petregallo]

It's all falling over. It's all going out. They drove him there. So part of the conspiracy. October 31st, Linda's finally fucking arrested. She's the last one to finally get arrested.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And she's the one that told.

[James Petregallo]

It's about fucking time. That's what I mean. I don't know. The body's buried on your property. And you know where it is as soon as you. When you're digging. Soon as you hit Nike with your shovel, hands behind your back, you pointed to it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And then we found a body. And first.

[James Petregallo]

First fucking inkling of High Top, I see you're in cuffs. You knew about a body buried on your property. You're in cuffs. She's gonna be charged with conspiracy to commit kidnapping. There, that's her. And the other two are also gonna be conspiracy. Theresa and Carolyn. And they're both teachers. Ms. Walkachuk won't be in today because she's been arrested for conspiracy to commit murder. So we have a substitute indefinitely. Yeah, we're going to learn about the ABCs from somebody else today. So I guess Carolyn was a childhood friend of Teresa and she was teaching in the field school district. She was an acquaintance of Butch's and went along for the ride. Carolyn said without knowing any. She didn't know what laid in store. She didn't know shit. She was just told that. Can you give me a ride to the bus station? We're going to pick my friend up. And also, neither woman witnessed the killing. They drove away. Yeah, so they didn't witness him. So Linda's gonna spill the whole thing here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She's gonna tell everything.

[James Petregallo]

She's gonna tell. She was the one who told him about the body. So she's her. Her only hope is I'm on your side, guys. Yeah, I was scared, too. Terrifying.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Playing Go fish. They're playing poker.

[James Petregallo]

She's totally different games.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She's gonna lose tremendously.

[James Petregallo]

Never mind checkers and chess. Yeah, this is a Go Fish and lawn darts together. I don't know what's going on here. So the police contend that Teresa met him at the Greyhound station, drove him to the wooded area in Hudson. It is near the haunted house, the Halloween haunted house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Buried him near where?

[James Petregallo]

No, no, that's where they killed him. Oh, out near the haunted house on Barlow Road between State Route 91 and Stowe Road in Hudson. That's where the oil access road was. It's fucking ridiculous. So out near a haunted house. So it's a prior arrangement. They said they sat in the back seat. They told Butch they were going to a party. We're going to a party. And they drove to Hudson. That's where the party is in Hudson. But then they turned down the service road. She said she had to pee. He got out, they drove away. Carolyn Told the police that she looked in the rear view mirror as they were down the road and saw Pratt, quote, doubled over on his knees. And then she said she saw Ed and Mike Swiger, too, in the rearview mirror. That was the last she saw, the whole thing. Now, what happened was they not they. Ed punched and kicked Butch until he stopped moving. Just beats a living shit out of him. He's a kickboxer. He just beat the shit out of the kid. And the kid didn't expect it either. So he kind of. It was out of nowhere, he. You know, he wasn't. I didn't know he was in a fight. So, yeah, best friend. So then he handcuffed Butch behind his back and strapped his ankles with Mike's necktie and then put a bag over his butt head in the upper part of his body.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

And threw him in the back of Mike's car in the hatchback trunk of it and took the car to Greenville, where the body was buried by a creek on a farm where Ed used to live with Linda at that place they lived at. That's how he knew about it. Now, they basically put him in a large garbage bag and put him in the. In the hatchback of a Pontiac Phoenix.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What even is that?

[James Petregallo]

That's what I said. What the fuck is a Pontiac Phoenix? I'm thinking of like a. Like one of those.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They mean Firebird.

[James Petregallo]

Pontiac Phoenix.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's gotta mean a Firebird.

[James Petregallo]

That's like a Grand Theft Auto car. Like, you know, the Phoenix, it's not a real car. Doesn't exist with an app that up right now. Pontiac Phoenix. It's a hatchback of some kind.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And this newspaper reported it as a car, so 1980s, I assume.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's an. Oh, boy. It's like a Chevette. It looks exactly like a Chevette.

[James Petregallo]

That's why the Pontiac.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yep, the Chevette sold better.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they liked alliteration. The Chevy Chevette. The Pontiac Phoenix, they liked that shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

A piece of shit is what it is.

[James Petregallo]

Total piece of shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's a garbage car.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. So that's what this poor kid had to ride in for his last ride, the trunk of a Chevette. A knockoff Chevette. Not even a real Chevette.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They started making a Grand Am instead because it didn't sell.

[James Petregallo]

That makes sense.

[Jimmy Wisman]

The poor kid. Jesus Christ.

[James Petregallo]

That somehow makes it way worse. Yeah. Along the way, driving back to Pennsylvania, they stopped in Kent to pick up Linda and Michael Swiger's girlfriend, Christine Cassandra, who didn't Know anything about anything. She had no idea. Yeah, she thought they were just going out that night. She didn't know there was a body in the truck. I don't know how four people could be in a fucking Chevette and not know that there's a fifth person in the fucking hatchback. I'm sorry, dude. Like, it's a Chevette. You'd see it weighed down back there. It's not tiny piece of shit. From there, after picking up the ladies, they head out to the farmhouse near Paimatuning Lake or whatever the fuck it is that we talked about earlier. That's why we brought that up. And by noon the next day, everyone was home with their parents as if nothing happened. The Swaggers went home and just went on with their lives. Went to law school and just.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

Acted like nothing even happened. Wow. So Butch's mom is pissed off, obviously. She also said that, you know that fucking harlot that lured my son out there, Teresa? She described her as her son's friend and nothing more, which isn't exactly true. He was definitely trying to make it more. I don't send flowers to my friends that say, miss you, see you soon.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Love me this weekend.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, I'm not. That's. You send that to a chick you're trying to hook up with. Now, the mom said he sent her flowers because he was coming to visit her and wanted her to know he was thinking of her. That's what's upsetting to me. He was going to get some tail. What are we talking about? He could be a nice guy, 22 years old, going to try to fuck his 22 year old sort of girlfriend that he's talking to. That's normal. He's just being a normal back of.

[Jimmy Wisman]

The 30 something year old successful gal.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. You know, behind her back. Yeah. So she said that she. This is so sad, dude. She keeps Butch's voice on her answering machine as a reminder of him so she can remember his voice always. She said, it doesn't upset me. A lot of times when I work the night turn, I come home and put it on. I say, hello, Butch. I miss you and love you. And then I go in the corner and cry a little. Jesus Christ. This poor woman. Oh my God.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's like people keeping 9 11.

[James Petregallo]

Man, that's so brutal. So sad. It's so sad. Now I've. I've saved. I've saved voicemails from friends of mine that died. Yeah. Haven't you? Have you done that?

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, no, I I had pages from them, like, on my pager. But I never really. I don't think I ever had any friends that really. Actually, I did have friends who their mom left their voicemail up on and kept their phone active and we could call it to hear them.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But I called, like, twice, and I was like, this is up. I can't do this.

[James Petregallo]

This is creepy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's too deep.

[James Petregallo]

I had a voicemail from Rod on my phone after he died. And I had that phone long past when it. I should have had it because I didn't want to. I didn't. Because once you got rid of it back then it was gone. So I didn't, like. I didn't want to get rid of it. I felt bad getting rid of it. And I finally got rid of it, though.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But I could see that.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. It's sad, though. I see it. But, you know, I wouldn't play it and cry. I just like to know there. You know what I mean? So, in an attempt to find a motive, they pieced together the scenario that the chief of police called, quote, intriguing. Yeah, I would hope so. Now they decide the cases will stay in Ohio because there's a big thing. Are they going to be tried in Pennsylvania where the bodies were found? In Ohio, where it happened? They said. This is from the District Attorney. Said the events that began in Akron ultimately led to Pratt's death. Whether he died here or died somewhere else is not an issue. Is not an issue under our jurisdiction laws. Wherever the crime started. Sure. So Edward, I guess Edward, according to Linda, Eddie admitted to her that he kicked, punched, and beat him in the face until he was unable to move about. But she. He said that he continued. That Edward continued to Linda that he and his brother handcuffed the victim, placed a bag over his head and upper torso and placed him in the trunk of Michael's vehicle. Edward Swagger contacted Ms. Carlin personally, and she had the occasion to observe him remove the body from the trunk of the vehicle while the vehicle was parked near the gravesite. Okay. Now, December 19th, 1989. Trials are coming. They're coming. Ed and Teresa are engaged. That's cute. They're gonna have. I wonder where they're registered. Can't wait to see and find out. Gotta get them a present. So. That is fucking crazy. She also. Teresa, faces three counts of obstructing justice for protecting the identities. And they all, by the way, Linda, Carolyn, Teresa, all out on bond. They all pled innocent. Out on bond.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Both the Swagger boys are on a Million dollars bond. They're not going anywhere. They're in there. Yeah, they're fucking in there. The Mercer county district attorney said this is the most bizarre case he's ever been involved with. Just the whole thing, it's so. It's like a tooth. It has roots that go way deeper than you think. So they.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fascinating.

[James Petregallo]

It really is. He said it's one of the few cases that he's ever covered that he could describe as just pure evil. Just fucking nasty. It's nasty. It's disgusting. It's mean. It's. There's no heat of the moment. There's no.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, it's just cruel for the sake of being cool.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And you couldn't even do it in a fucking easy way. You couldn't have your gun on you. And like. No, let's go talk. And wait till he turns around, shoot him in the back of the fucking head like a mob guy would do. You had to fucking beat the kid to death, which was a horrifying way to die. That's fucking disgusting. They said also, the prosecutor said that Linda Carlin and Edward Swiger are sociopaths who lie with alacrity, which. Gusto. Yeah, alacrity is a good one there. The supporting cast, they said, was equally as disturbing. The guy said, there's cruel and then there's extraordinary. These people went on with their lives like nothing happened. They knew Butch was dead and allowed his mother to wonder. You don't find people who are this evil. I agree.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And it's for what? To cover their own asses so he.

[James Petregallo]

Wouldn'T not get into law school? I mean, for something. That's. That's what I'm saying. If I didn't do anything, I'd be like, oh, what the fuck? But if I did all this shit, I'd be like, well, chickens fucking coming home to rooster. They caught me. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean, that's a story.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. It's not his fault. And he taught what was helping him. Yeah. It'd be one thing if Butch was the mastermind, talking Ed into do it. And he's like, oh, this asshole ruined my life. It's all your idea. You forced this guy to go along with you. This is crazy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You made choices, man, A lot of them.

[James Petregallo]

So January 1990 is Linda's trial. Yeah, here we go. Linda's trial. She's the first up, by the way. I mean, they found the body in October 89. She's on trial. January 90, it is. Quick. So the prosecution said that they will demonstrate that Linda had wanted to prevent Butch from testifying to cover her role in the old town arson, the furniture arson, and that she's the one who sent the spy to the preliminary hearing on the burglary charges at the magistrate's office in Greenville, which is true. That woman went back and reported back to Linda. They said that Linda enlisted the aid of Teresa by telling her that Butch was bad and that had. He had knocked up one of her friends. So this guy. Because she's like, what do you mean? And she's like. He's like. She's telling her friend, oh, this is crazy. You don't want to go out with him. He's a scumbag. He knocked up one of my friends, and now he's trying to get with you, and blah, blah, blah. That's how they talked Teresa into doing this. So for the defense, Linda tells jurors that. Basically that they tell jurors that Linda had worked her way up in a responsible position and that she had no problems in her life until she met Ed Swiger in May of 1987. Then it all changed. Everything went downhill from there. She said that Linda's motivation in the case began out of love for Swiger, but by the time of the fire, she was moved by fear of her own life. That's what it was. They said that they called Ed Swiger vicious and brutal and manipulative, and told the court that Swiger had taken advantage of his relationship with her and drained her of money and burned her house down and forced her into a murder plot. You know, all those bad things.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He made her do all this.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. At one point, she said that Ed and Butch showed up before the fire. This is her claim before the old town furniture fire, that they showed up, and Ed and Butch were in camouflage gear, and Ed told her that they're gonna kill Dr. Steele, the guy that owns all this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

And she said that Linda. Linda's lawyer, said that Linda begged Ed not to do it and that Swiger told her, either you burn the store or we kill him. Take your pick. Which would you rather? And she said, well, I guess burn the store.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fire or murder?

[James Petregallo]

That's it. And they said, okay, and they burnt that motherfucker to the ground. Now she. Her whole defense is based on fear of Ed. That's it. Fear of Ed Swagger. It's her only defense. She was forced to participate in everything. Not only the kidnapping, but also the furniture store arson forced into that also. The prosecution, though, contends that she's a very willing participant who you know, had blown the whistle on her co defendants only when she believed it was to her benefit to get out from under the another arson investigation. So they're like, she is the definition of a rat. You know what I mean? She is jumping off sinking ships left and right here. Now Carolyn testifies against her. She testifies against that. As she sped away, she looked in a rear view mirror and said Butch was on his knees and the Swaggers were standing over him. Just like she said to the cops, Linda has to testify here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Here we go.

[James Petregallo]

Because they're painting her as a manipulative monster who's trying to get out of her own shit. And she's painting herself as this horrified victim who was just scared of everything. So she's got to get up there and convince the jury that she's terrified of everything. So she said that there's, quote, two Eddies. The good one I fell in love with and the horrible one. Oh, he's a Jekyll and Hyde here. She said that she did not know that Butch was in the trunk of the car until she was driving the vehicle back to Pennsylvania. So until I was already in the car, I didn't know there. Through her whole testimony, she's sobbing, sobbing, sobbing. I mean, just everything, it's all sobbing. And she said that, you know, she testified that she said it was just great fear of Edward Swiger, who was no longer the sweet Eddie I had fallen in love with, but a horrible Eddie. That's her quote, by the way. An open court. A horrible Eddie. Which is just fucking Silly. So in October 18, 1989, upon discovering her house had been burned down, she said fear overcame her and she just went to the police. So that's why we're all here. The verdicts here, the jurors deliberate for about five hours on this one. Oh, which seems like a long time for someone who says she did shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You know, five hours is a long time for somebody who pointed out where a body was located.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's on her own property. That's wild. So, yeah, at times the jury could be heard in the jury room playing a two hour long tape recorded statement that she made and had given Pennsylvania State Police in October. So they're going over that to make sure that what she said here matches up with that, basically. So yeah, now this is wild. While the verdict comes in, no emotion. Sobbed all the way through her testimony, everything. You could ask her, what'd you have for lunch today? She'd be like ham and cheese. Like she's so Sad. But then when the verdict comes in, stone faced, which makes me think she's acting on the stand.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Bullshitting.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, bullshit. So she is found guilty of conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Oh, that's what she was. That's all she was up for.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Now then the sentencing though the judge sentences her to, you, ma'am, may fuck off. 7 to 15 years in prison for the conspiracy to commit kidnapping.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And also sentences her to a consecutive mandatory three year prison term on a firearm specification. That was based on the allegation that Edward was armed when he was. When Butch was kidnapped. So I almost called him Billy. Like Overboard. Bad Billy Pratt. It's so hard not to hold this entire fucking show. I've been saying, don't say Billy, don't say Billy, don't say Billy. It's Butch, not Billy. Which really the guy in Overboard should have been called Butcher. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He looked more like a Butch than a Billy.

[James Petregallo]

Butch Pratt. Yeah, that's what you could have called him Butch and that would have been something. Yeah, Butch Pratt. So she's also going to have more troubles because she's also going to be tried in Pennsylvania for arson.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

As well for the arson form for the furniture store.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Ten years right now to do over here.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. She will be eligible for parole on just the kidnapping and whatever the Iowa, Ohio charges. She'll be eligible for parole in seven years, eight months.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Seven years. Okay.

[James Petregallo]

So that's, you know, that's not that long, honestly. But then she's going to get more for her other bullshit for her firebug action. Now, February 19th, February 1990 is Ed's trial.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Now is Linda going to testify against him?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

No, she is not, actually.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

They said that she will not be used as a witness in the trial. She would be a hostile witness and is not necessary to prove the prosecution's case because she's still trying to protect herself about shit. So she's not gonna exactly spill everything. Ed testifies. He has no choice. They have her statements, they have the girls, they have his brother's statements to the cops. They have all this shit. So he's gotta explain his way out of this. This is gonna be. He's. The death penalty's on the table, so this is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Jesus. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

This could be the difference between this and that. So he's got to get up there. That he, by the way, does not change the tone of his voice at all through the entire testimony. Like every newspaper comments on how creepy it was that he was just monotone. Like he was A robot reciting something. Just no emotion, no dead inside. Dead inside. He said, quote, he was like a brother to me about Bush. He was like a brother to me. He said they were fraternity brothers, they shared an off campus house. And so they go, okay, yeah, we'll pick up where the murder part happened. He said that, you know, the women had tricked Butch into getting out of the car and had left him standing on the gravel service road to an oil well. So that's all true. He said that he and Michael got out of Michael's car, which had been concealed from view, tucked away in the bushes. Tucked away in the bushes. He said, we shut the car doors. He heard the noise, turned around and saw us.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Once they shut the car doors, he was like, oh, shit. Then his story goes a little off the rails here. He said that Pratt cursed at him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Butch was like, you motherfucker. And ran at him and tackled him. He said, you motherfucker, I'm going to fight a guy who's much bigger than me and his brother and his threat. Yeah, I'm going to fight them both. I'm going to start the fight, too.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

He said he couldn't remember the exact details of the fight, but he said the two of them were rolling around on the ground. Michael never got involved, by the way. Mike stood off to the side and watched all of this. He helped with everything, but he did not get involved in the beating. So questioned by his lawyer, he said, in the course of wrestling, I may have picked him up and hit his head on a rock.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Mayhem. I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

Mayhem.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Can't recall.

[James Petregallo]

Who can be sure in these trying times? You know what I mean? Asked when he knew that Pratt was seriously injured, he said, quote, I remember him not fighting back anymore. That'll do it. Questions about the role of his brother. He said, he didn't do anything, as far as I could tell. So he said while he lay injured on the ground, he and his brother taught. While Butch lay injured on the ground, Eddie and his brother Mike sat around and talked about what to do. What do we do? Obviously, what else do you fucking do? You got to talk about what to do. He said they were unable to make a decision about what to do. So you didn't have this planned ahead of time. I think you did. So he decided to load. To load him into the trunk and then drive to Kent to ask Linda what to do. Maybe she'll know what to do. She must be experienced in murder type stuff, right? We'll ask her. That's how much he like. It's a weird mom relationship. I'm gonna go ask my mom what to do with this body. I don't know. So there. Linda advised them to take Butch back to Pennsylvania. But because she was afraid that he might regain consciousness on the trip, she insisted that he be tied up and produced handcuffs from her purse.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

That's Swagger's story. That's his story. I don't believe it. I think he had the handcuffs. I don't think Linda. I think he was cuffed and tied up before he got put in the car. And they picked Linda up. That's what I would say. But this way it makes it sound like it's a total accident. So I don't know what to do. And then Linda made it much crueler by taking out these, these handcuffs and said we should tie him up. And that's so cruel. So it is a 10 man or 10 woman two man jury. And they begin deliberations at about 3pm, took a recess for dinner and then did it for another two hours and then left for the day. The next day they come in with a verdict pretty quick and they find him guilty of all murder related everything. Of everything. Yeah, he did it. You fucking did it. Now the sentencing comes around and yeah, they said, this is his friend were there who he built the deck for and all that kind of shit. He said, you don't understand what kind of a person this was, what a loss this was. He was going to be an impact person. There was going to be some day when Butch was 50 or 60 years old when they were going to have a ceremony and a dinner to toast the effect that he's made. That's nice to say. The judge, on the other hand says, you sir, may fuck off. Convicted of aggravated murder and sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 30 years.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

With a consecutive 10 to 25 year sentence for aggravated kidnapping and a consecutive three years sentence for gun specification as well.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Feels like they didn't believe anything he said.

[James Petregallo]

You is what they said. Yeah. Get your ass out of here. He will have to serve almost 40 years before he's eligible for parole. So even if you go in at 24, he's coming out collecting Social Security.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

That's wild. So in prison, yeah, he's got to serve his life sentence in Ohio. He's also serving seven to 18 years to be served consecutively for the arson too. That's another thing they try him on. And then facing more time because of drug violations committed while in prison. He fucking fell apart. He was an upstanding guy. Next thing you know, he's in prison, he's doing drugs. He doesn't even. It's over, man. He's just a mess. So February 22, 1990, right after this happens, apparently there was a lot of. There was some editorials, some people sending letters to the newspaper, the Akron Beacon Journal, about how Linda got off easy and that the jurors are fucking idiots and they don't know what they're doing. So there is an editorial written by a juror in the Linda Carlin case, which I find interesting. The most interesting thing is to find out what the jurors were thinking during the trial. Like the Laurie Daybell case there when they interviewed those jurors afterwards. It was the most interesting thing in the fucking world when they first said, when did you find out that she killed her kids, too? That's the best question. They're like, yeah, people were telling you. As soon as we left, everyone was shouting it out, google her. Google her. And yeah, the one juror goes, I looked up and there's a Netflix documentary. I think I know what I'm doing tonight. I was like, that's. Wow, you haven't even seen it yet.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's amazing.

[James Petregallo]

No, she said, I just moved to the area like a year and a half ago, so I didn't hear about it when it happened, and I just never heard about it because I don't really pay attention, that kind of thing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's fascinating how many people don't know anything about it. Nothing, I think.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, our whole business is true crime. Like, our whole life is this crime. Whereas I don't think a lot of people even pay attention. They don't know what the. Going on.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I've been about it since, yeah, forever. Long, long time.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's a pre. Amy Fisher, Joey Buttafuoco, man. I mean, we're talking back life. Yeah, man.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why Did Johnny Kill? Was a documentary I watched when I was a kid on hbo.

[James Petregallo]

So interesting.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It was. I had a weird feeling in my stomach that I was like, I want to feel this more.

[James Petregallo]

You put your hand down. I thought you put it. I thought you were putting it on your dick. And I was like. I was like, this is going to be disturbing. And I got this weird stirring in my balls and I, like, my dick got hard and I was like, I can't watch this shit ever again.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'm going to watch this all the time.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, my God. Okay. Thank fuck you were going for your stomach. You went like kind of a little low, and I really thought you were. You were going for your dick. My dick just started, really. I mean, it was like a fucking missile down there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It was hard and tingly, and I just had to rub it and keep watching.

[James Petregallo]

This is just great. Ever since then, I'm rock hard for three hours during these stories. So this editorial is called the Verdict in the Linda Carlin Trial, and I will read it. It's from a man named Jack Banis from Akron. He's the juror. He says, as a juror in the Linda Carlin conspiracy to commit kidnapping trial, I have refused to discuss with reporters the Roger Pratt murder case because Mike Swagger has yet to have his kidnapping and aggravated murder trial. This was in the middle of it, however. No, this is because Mike is after this. So Ed and Linda had already gone. Mike is going to be tried later next month, he said. However, I feel I must respond to the asinine letter by Kimberly Marie, Voice of the People, February 12, in which she asked how a convicted murderer could be eligible for parole in seven years and eight months because that's how long Linda is eligible for parole in Ohio. Ms. Carlin was not accused of either abducting Roger Pratt or of beating him to death. She was accused and convicted of being present along with Ed Swiger, Mike Swiger, Carolyn Luly, Theresa Walkachuk at a meeting when plans were made to trick Roger into meeting with the Swagger brothers, they were afraid that he was going to implicate the Swaggers in a burglary and Ms. Carlin and the swaggers in an arson in Greenville. Ms. Carlin was not present when Roger Pratt was beaten to death. I sat through two days of jury selection, six days of testimony and one day of deliberation. One of the hardest things that a citizen can be called upon to do is to vote to send someone to prison. I spent many sleepless hours as this case really got to me. I wanted very desperately to discuss the case with someone, anyone, but I knew I couldn't tell anything about the trial. During the jury deliberations, I found the others had very similar feelings. Judge Mary Spicer handled this case in a very fair and professional manner and did defense lawyer, or as did defense lawyer Robert Baker and prosecutors, whoever, it doesn't matter. We worked very hard, even bending over backward to ensure that justice was done. I'm satisfied with the verdict, and I believe the sentence is very appropriate for the level of involvement of Ms. Carlin. Sure, I Tend to agree. I don't think they told Linda that murder was afoot.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I. You can't. You gotta assume she didn't know that part.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, but maybe not. Would you. Okay, all right. Would you just, on spec, kill a guy and then show up at her house and assume that she was gonna help you rather than freak out and call the cops on you? I don't know. I mean, I guess if you knew her real well, I don't know that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'd want to be involving anybody. I don't want to tell anybody what's going to happen.

[James Petregallo]

Maybe the arson kind of tied them together because it's like, you know, one of us goes down, we're all going down. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We're already criminals together. We can just be criminals more.

[James Petregallo]

That's possibly it. I'm not sure. So March of 1990 is Mike Swagger's trial.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And it's a one day trial.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

It's one that his lawyer later on says he's never heard of and is a disgrace. A one day trial for a murder trial. He's like, that's crazy. You need some more something. So they said that he made a decision to give up a jury trial on the charges here after they announced that they would not seek the death penalty. They said they weren't going to seek the death penalty against Mike. They sought it against Eddie, but not against Mike. So once they decide that Ed waives the jury trial and goes right to a judge instead, I think it makes sense for Mike because a jury could get real over emotional about stuff and blame him more than maybe he had culpability to be blamed. Whereas a judge will look at it legally, there won't be any emotions involved in it. You know what I'm saying?

[Jimmy Wisman]

And the idea is the judge has seen this a lot.

[James Petregallo]

He's seen it a lot. And he can parse legalities and, you know, parse what's what and do that. So that's. That's the hope, I assume. But I don't know if that's always true or not. I think a judge at that point might take it upon themselves to make an example if they can. So the prosecution's only role in the trial was to formally agree with defense counsel to many of the findings of fact held over from previous trials in the case. It's pretty much it. It's just like we stipulate to all this info.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

And then what? It's a one day trial. It's really weird. Mike testifies to all the stuff he said earlier that we said he just spilled that all in court and said it was his brother and he didn't know it was going on. And they find him guilty. Yeah, he is guilty. Involuntary manslaughter with a gun specification and kidnapping. He is found guilty of. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean, if he. Even if he didn't know, as soon as his brother started beating.

[James Petregallo]

Tackle his brother off of him. Stop him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Or never stopped him. Ever.

[James Petregallo]

Never stopped him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Didn't know what it is.

[James Petregallo]

Helped bury the body.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You know what it is.

[James Petregallo]

You know what you're doing here. So he is sentenced to. You, sir, may fuck off. Grand total 28 to 53 years.

[Jimmy Wisman]

God damn.

[James Petregallo]

He gets in there. He's also given a one year sentence for his role in the arson because he cooperated with authorities on that. Linda didn't and neither did Eddie. And Linda's gonna fucking actually hope that she wish she did. Pretty soon both Swigers pled guilty in the furniture store arson. And that faced the prison sentences. And obviously Mike got his and it was an extra year. Carolyn and Teresa are our drivers. They both pleaded guilty to single counts of conspiracy to kidnap and got you young ladies may fuck off. Probation. Probation.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She looked in the rear view and saw him doubled over and two men.

[James Petregallo]

Beating him and said, that's cool. And kept driving and didn't ever go to the cops.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Probation.

[James Petregallo]

Probation. Till she was arrested. Till they were arrested. And Teresa knew a lot more. I don't know how much Carolyn knew, but Theresa was involved. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

A man is missing. The last time I saw him, he was doubled over with two guys beating him. Said nothing.

[James Petregallo]

Nothing. And Teresa was the one who said, I have to pee, get out of the car. And then close Probation and probation who? I'd give Thelma and Louise three to five to think about this show at least, right? Yeah. Even if they get out in a year and a half, you're gonna be inconvenienced for this shit. You've been out on bond the whole time. You come to court now you get probation. No, no, no, no, no. You're gonna do some time.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Every time you have a background check.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. It has to be on there. I need you to do like a year where you come out and your hair is all fucked up and it's a mess and your skin looks like shit and you feel bad about yourself. Cause that's fucked up. It's not cool. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I need you to get out and have to work to get back in shape.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. This is bad. I want you to be all carb chubby when you get out. Yeah, yeah, big time. And with a, you know, a relationship going on with a 300 pound Hispanic woman. I'd like that going on for you guys.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Keeping you safe and your hair braided.

[James Petregallo]

Keeping you safe and you keeping her hair braided. That's what I like for them, just, you know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Holy shit. Probation.

[James Petregallo]

Probation. That's the thing. That's the most mind blowing thing to me. Like, Linda got off a little bit light because I feel like she was more involved in this than she's letting on. But probation, that's crazy. You delivered him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You sandwiched a man in the backseat.

[James Petregallo]

He might as well have had a bow on his head. Like just delivered gift wrap to these people to murder.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Probation.

[James Petregallo]

Probation. Wild. I'm shocked at that. So 1997 comes around. There is a TV movie.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Called what Happened to Bobby Earl?

[Jimmy Wisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

Who the fuck is Bobby Earl?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Bobby and Earl, I don't know any.

[James Petregallo]

Of these people are. And it makes it sound like they're like hicks or something. What happened to Bobby Earl? Where's Bobby Earl at? No. So there's an article here about this movie. It's a CBS TV movie and it says for Roger Pratt's brother, movie on murder met goal. So they're not even mad. They're not upset. They're like. They actually got. The mom got $500 for it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, CBS gave him 500 bucks.

[James Petregallo]

Gave him 500 bucks for this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We're gonna sell Pepsi ads over your 500 bucks.

[James Petregallo]

500 bucks, man, that's wild. But he did, I guess they did a good job. Which, by the way, I hope it felt good for the filmmakers because we got, if you don't know, we did that Powell, Wyoming case a few weeks back. And there's an article or local article from Wyoming where the murder victim's family is not mad at us at all and is in fact really happy with us. And like, saying it's the first time they've been able to laugh about it ever. And it was. The most complimentary thing we could possibly hear would be a victim's family saying they liked the show, which was a comedy show about them.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's been crying for 30 years about it and thankful to laugh about it for once.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Fucking cool.

[James Petregallo]

That feels great. So I hope the filmmakers aren't complete pieces of shit and feel the same thing. Or else it's like, fuck him. Who cares? So they say, I'll read the article. Michael Pratt is pleased with Tuesday night's CBS movie telling the story of the 1988 murder of his brother Roger Butch Pratt. I thought it was great. He said there were a few things that have been changed, but for the most part, it's 90% true.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You know, like his name.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. What's. What the fuck? What's fucking eating Gilbert Grape over here is not the same thing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Maybe that's what we do every week from now on is just change names. Fuck.

[James Petregallo]

Change all the names.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Make some fun.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Fuck. We could say we could lie then, but then nobody would listen. They want the truth. That's the difference. Yeah. We could make shit up. It could be like. And then a dragon came out. Oh, my God.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Bobby Earl.

[James Petregallo]

Bobby Earl. So he said it tells people what happened. Pratt says, explaining A lot of the people knew. A lot of explaining. A lot of people knew about the case. But main many didn't know exactly what had happened. The names of the characters and what happened to Bobby Earl were changed for legal reasons, but the name of the Mercer county town of Greenville, where many of the depicted events occurred wasn't. Those who watched the movie looking for local scenes were disappointed as it was filmed in Toronto, which is when they do that. Nothing like central Ohio or Northern Ohio. The movie tells the story from the Pratt family's view, depicting Butch as an ambitious young man, the first in his family to go to college, who fell in with a bad crowd, which is pretty much what happened. Pratt said the screenplay was based on interviews with his family and transcripts from the trial of those convicted in Butch's murder. So they go on to say the case. We don't need to do that part. So they said that, but they talked to everybody in it. He said today that shortly before. This is a. Sergeant Tom Stroller from the police department said that shortly before Pratt disappeared, his attorney told police that Bush had information about the arson fire. So they get into that. They say Stroller thought the movie also was reasonably accurate. He said things were true, but out of sequence, he said, adding that he was surprised by the similarity of his own name to the name given to Squire. Squire's character in the movie, Tom Stahl. His name is Stroller. And this is with an R, though Stroller. And this is Stall. But he's like, I don't call the murderer close to my name. That's fucked up. Michael also. Michael said his mother, Rose. This is Michael Pratt, by the way. Butch's brother said that Rose also liked the movie, adding that the family has been deluged with phone calls from people who saw the film and they Wanted to express support for them. So Michael, 1998 comes around. Michael's appealing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really.

[James Petregallo]

He argues that the court, trial court, incorrectly denied his motion for relief from judgment and his petition for post conviction relief. Now the court affirms the judgments because one, the defendant's motion failed to satisfy the requirements for relief and the defendant's petition failed to demonstrate any substantive grounds for post conviction relief. In other words, we don't really care about you. Fuck off. So 1999 comes around and Linda's up for parole. Oh, Ohio parole. Then she's got 10 years to do in Pennsylvania for arson. They gave her 10. 10 years for that same.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She got more time for that?

[James Petregallo]

Yes, it was seven and a half to 15. She got fucking a hard 10 in Pennsylvania over that shit. So that's interesting. Now she's up for parole. And the victim's families here, the Pratt family is trying to keep her in prison.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So the Ohio Parole Board agreed to hear an appeal of its. They basically, January 2, 1999, they stay parole. Linda, she's not released right away as shit goes through. But then the Ohio Parole Board agreed to hear an appeal of its decision to release her. The family fucking petitioned them for an appeal.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We're gonna let you go after we hear whether or not we should let you go.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. From the people who really hate you a lot, by the way. They're gonna come in and say everything they hate about you. So they said she's been serving a sentence of seven to 15 years in the Ohio Reformatory for Women at Marysville since her conviction. They said two parole board members granted the parole. I think it's a three person board granted her parole after an Aug. 26 hearing agreeing to her release. If the state of Pennsylvania is ready to lock her up for five to 10 years on a guilty plea for an arson charge. So basically just, you know, if we can hand you right off to them, you can be paroled. So instead, though, the family finds out about this Michael Pratt, Rose Pratt, and they gathered more than 4,000 signatures on petitions, which is more than. And also 100 letters in opposition to granting the parole and presented them to the board before the hearing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

A lot of people.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. When Michael Pratt learned that parole was granted, he said he would file an appeal of the case and seek a full parole board hearing on the matter. He said his appeal was granted and the full parole board will HEAR the case December 14th in Columbus. And he said he hopes to enlist the support of the Summit County Prosecutor's office, which handled the murder Case as well as law enforcement and whoever else wants to come talk shit about this lady.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Anybody want to hate her out loud, Go on over.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. And Pratt said, quote, we have. We still have one more chance. I got nothing to lose.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Put on your hating pants and come on down.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. Anybody got hate pants? Put on. Put on your fucking. Your. Your. Your fucking overalls, shoes, your hating pants. You're over. Come on through your IR overalls. Yeah, put on your IR overalls and your fucking. Jesus Christ, man. Your unbelievable underwear. Get in here. So she was granted, and now the parole is revoked, by the way.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay, good, good.

[James Petregallo]

A Supreme Court decision that prohibits parole board members from considering other crimes committed means her case will be reheard.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Now, if she's released, she'll be turned over to Pennsylvania where she'll serve five to ten years on her. On a guilty plea for arson, 2002. Mike is up for parole. Oh, it's his first parole hearing. The parole board, rather than listen to him, just continues his sentence till 2008.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, no, thanks. We all got our hating pants on. Goodbye.

[James Petregallo]

Bye. Bye. I got my pissed off pen. I'm going to write this no on here and send you the fuck out. You're gone. So, yep, that's his. Continues a sentence till 2008. 2003, though, Mike has a big change of heart of everything. Oh, Mike now wants to explain everything here. He's like, this is. He wants to do it. He says that he. And that, you know, that he. Basically, he said that he told Ed, told him that him and Butch had swiped the stereo equipment from the fraternity brothers. And then they had a falling out and Butch got caught. And while Butch hadn't formally told on Ed for the crimes yet, Ed was worried and he wanted to go to law school. And if Butch told all he knew, especially about the arson, Ed's future would be fucked, basically. So Ed told Michael, hey, I need you. He said they. He's. Michael says that fucking Ed told him that they're going to meet with Butch and bribe him to keep his mouth shut. We're going to pay him off. That's all. Which is fine. You could do that. You want to pay the guy off, then it's all on him. He can decide what's more. What's important to him. So Michael said. I said I'd come. I'll go help. I'll go be moral support for you. That's the other thing. I don't know if anybody except for Ed, knew what was going to happen that day. I really don't. I don't know if he told everybody because he's not that close to Michael. He just kind of grabs him when he needs him for something.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean, nobody's going to. Nobody's going to cop to it because that makes him look bad.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's hard to tell who knew what.

[James Petregallo]

I know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Everybody knew something was gonna happen. Everybody knew something just the way Ed is.

[James Petregallo]

He just seems such. Like. Such a manipulative fuck. Every little thing. It seems like he would set. Tell everybody something different to get them there that day, you know, whatever it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Took to get him to do it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, that. Whatever. You know, if you asked all of them why you here? I think everybody have a different story of why they're here. Because Ed told him something different. It feels like. So they said, you know, obviously the two girls were enlisted. They promised they were going to a party and drove him to the remote spot. Michael said he watched in horror as Ed attacked Butch. Butch never attacked him. He said he didn't come at him. He said Ed attacked Butch first with his fists and then slamming his head into the ground and jumping up and down on his chest while laughing. Michael appeared, he said. Ed later said that Michael appeared to have frozen up. I had to shout directly into his face to get him to snap out of it and retrieve the car.

[Jimmy Wisman]

God damn.

[James Petregallo]

Mike just went catatonic.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Turned into a different guy.

[James Petregallo]

He turned into Cameron from Ferris Bueller there at the pool. He's just fucking catatonic. Just totally out of it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Couldn't believe it. So he literally had to yell in his face to, let's go, motherfucker. Yeah, dead body. So that also tends to. To me, I don't believe the original story that Ed said he was dead. And then they stood around and talked about it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Petregallo]

It doesn't seem like that's what would happen here, so. Oh, my God. At that point, though, he said Butch was motionless. And so Michael said, I helped load him into the truck, bound and handcuffed. Hear that? Though Linda didn't produce. Handcuffed and handcuffed. Getting into the trunk. Ed brought that shit with him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yep.

[James Petregallo]

Knowing exactly what he was doing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He knew exactly what he was going to do. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Exactly what he was doing. The brothers then picked up Linda Carlin, drove to a farm where they buried Butch. Ed went to Philadelphia, moved in with Teresa, started law school. Michael went back for his sophomore year in engineering at Case, and he bought a house in Euclid and got Engaged. But he said he wasn't doing so well. He said it looked like we were doing great. And he said Ed was doing fine, but I wasn't doing too great inside about the whole thing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No.

[James Petregallo]

He said, quote, it was the most terrible 16 months of my life. I thought about it every day. He said my blood pressure was up, my grades dropped. He said he was worried about the Pratts. And he was also worried about how an arrest would hurt his father, who's a Jefferson county commissioner.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Sure was.

[James Petregallo]

And he also knew that if they got caught, that Ed would be facing the death penalty. And he probably thought, I probably will be, too, because I was fucking there. And no, there's no proof. I didn't do anything. So he's lucky enough that Ed said he didn't have anything to do with it. Or else if Ed could have just wrangled him in there. And he would have been just as fucked as. As him. So he said that he was terrified his brother would come after him, too. So I didn't put that past him. I was his best friend. Butch, right? He didn't even like me, really. Like, he hung out with Butch way more than he hung out with me. Why would he not kill me? So he said he avoided family gatherings, even. Cause he didn't want to see Ed.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Unbelievable.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He said if Ed was going to be home for the holidays, I wouldn't go. I was so afraid he would show up there or show up here. I lived in constant fear.

[Jimmy Wisman]

His own brother.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Of his own brother. I think Ed is a bad guy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I think everybody knows it.

[James Petregallo]

If he didn't burn. Think about the possibility. If he doesn't burn that house down, none of this shit comes out.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Nothing matters.

[James Petregallo]

He's gonna do anything. He has to for the rest of his fucking life. He's gonna kill somebody else.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, for sure.

[James Petregallo]

He's gonna rob people. He's gonna embezzle.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He gets away with it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. If he figures out how to do a stock scam, he's gonna do that. He has no morals at all, this kid. Nothing. Nothing at all. It's fucking sad. So he said that it was almost a relief when the case actually broke. He said police were in questioning Carlin, Linda and all of that. And he said that led to the discovery of the body. And he said when the cops swarmed his driveway, he said, quote, I knew immediately what it was. I knew exactly what it was.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What the fuck else would it be?

[James Petregallo]

It was. Yeah, because I've been waiting the whole fucking time it was one of those, yeah, what took you so long? Type of deals. Like, he totally knew he waived his right to a jury trial, like they said he was charged with. Charged with involuntary manslaughter and kidnapping, by the way. The trial not lasting a day. His current lawyer, Mark Stanton, said, it's the most pathetic thing I've ever seen in a murder trial. This just railroaded him right through it. Michael said at first he was bitter and mad about this whole thing. And in prison, he ignored his brother's letters and everything. He said, in hindsight, I felt manipulated in every sense because you were. You got treated like a fucking. Like a dipshit, like a patsy. So he said, the other guys in the slam are unlike other guys in the slam. He was an innocent man. He believed my feeling was I shouldn't be here. Interesting. So he said, it's a jailhouse cliche, but a church service changed him. He said, oh, that was it. He went originally because they have free candy at church.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

And you don't get candy in prison very often for free, other than.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that why you go to church, though?

[James Petregallo]

Yep. Free candy. Yep. He said he didn't like the sermon at all. A lot of guys just go because it's chill. Yeah, A lot of guys say it's just a chill place to go. So they go there because it's like no one will stab you while you're there. Usually it's just a cool place to be for an hour.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I like to go to mass for the snack and the sip of wine.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. No wine, but they're definitely. They're nice to you in there, too. I think it's probably the only place in prison where people are nice to you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, probably.

[James Petregallo]

You know, like, I don't think anybody else is real kind or anything. So someone will buy your bullshit and listen to your sob story and all that shit, too, I'm sure. So he said he didn't like the sermon. The pastor said they were all sinners and Michael would have none of it. He said he doesn't even know me. I thought to myself, how dare you call me a sinner?

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know. You stood by while somebody got murdered, Mike.

[James Petregallo]

That seems like some kind of sin. I don't know much about religion, but it seems like that should be frowned. If it's not, you guys should add to your books. Put that in the book.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They say, don't eat shrimp like seven times. So if this isn't in it, don't.

[James Petregallo]

Stomp on your friend's Head till he dies and then laugh at him. I think that should be in there somewhere. So he said he returned to his cell intent on looking up the Bible passage to find the sermon in order to refute it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, he's going to argue it now.

[James Petregallo]

He used to be an altar boy, so he knows his way around the Bible. So he's like, I'm going to show this mother what's up. He said he didn't know where it was. So he started at the beginning of the New Testament. By the time he found it in John 4, he'd read three Gospels. He said, I saw that not only had he been right about that, but there was a lot more he was right about. So he went back to church the next week with his attitude all changed. You can sway this guy to do anything?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Anything.

[James Petregallo]

Michael is real easy going. What? Murder, no problem. Religion. Great. That sounds good. Sign me up. Like, wow.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And if I get a wild hare and I don't know, something, I'll just.

[James Petregallo]

Read everything, look it up.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'll find it somewhere.

[James Petregallo]

I'll find it. He said, I started realizing my own influence on things. No matter what my brother did, I still had choices. And I made the wrong choices each time. True. He said he eventually forgave his brother. They still haven't talked because they're not allowed to co conspirators. But they can write letters and they do okay. So they said. After 14 years in prison, Michael Swiger seems nothing like. Nothing but a nice young man, this article says, Complete with a bashful smile and an awkward politeness around women. Even in his beige scrubs, he looks more like an engineering student than a prisoner. Somehow it doesn't seem ironic that his high school class voted him most caring. And he said, I was real productive citizen for 19 years. For two months, everything went crazy. And here I am, 35 years old.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right.

[James Petregallo]

Not just two months. I guess it is two months. It's May. That's the fire. And then June is the murder. So, yeah, he went batshit for a couple of months there. Linda2003, she seeks to cancel her plea in the arson. She pled to the arson and now she wants to cancel it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't like doing time.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I want to find this. She said she's found new evidence that she's not guilty. Oh. Oh. Interesting. Why the fuck you plead then? Wow. Okay. She's serving 7 to 15 there and 5 to 10 here. Authorities said that she obviously the killing would happen there. Karen entered. They call it an Allen plea, but it Sounds like an Alford plea. I don't know. Different states might have different versions of.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This and it might be Alan is. Is something arson, whereas Alfred's in murder.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, well, it just means that she didn't actually plead guilty, but admitted the prosecution had sufficient evidence. Which is no contest. Different states. I think it's different. No contest. Alford, Alan, I don't know. Or maybe this person just doesn't know shit. And put Alan instead of Alfred. I'm not sure. Autocorrected Harold Gwynne is the guy who wrote it. So he should get his head out of his ass maybe. Or not. Or I should. One of the two. So they said it's treated as a guilty plea for sentencing. And Carlin was ordered to serve five to 10 years. She isn't scheduled to begin that Ohio prison term until she completes her Ohio sentence in January 2005. So they're saying no parole. She's going to get out there and then go right there. She filed a post conviction relief petition in Mercer County Common Pleas Court asking that it be overturned. Her petition claims that Michael Swiger, a co defendant in both the arson cases, had recently informed her that he's willing to testify that she didn't recruit him to start the fire that destroyed the furniture store. Because now he's all Christian and he wants to fucking make amends. Right. But he never said she recruited her. Him though. Ed recruited Mike. That's never been the question. The point is she recruited Ed. That's the point.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

Unless Ed says that she didn't recruit me. I don't think it matters here. Because the chain of it was. I don't even know if Michael ever met Linda. Like it was a matter of.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, they weren't in the same. They probably met each other at some point.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, maybe. I would think. Yeah, probably. Like if you get a. If you get a guy to do something, no matter who he hires with him, that doesn't mean that you're not responsible for that person. Now you got the ball rolling here. So that's very interesting. The judge. President. President. Judge Francis J. Fernelli.

[Jimmy Wisman]

President, Judge.

[James Petregallo]

President. President, Judge. I have never heard of that before.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Didn't know.

[James Petregallo]

That's crazy. I always hate it when doctors run for president because you can't be Dr. President. Stop doing that. No, pick a title. So they said, noting that Carlin's new evidence is only hearsay at this point and said that Carlin's petition also contained a request for a free court appointed attorney. And they have denied that her Petition mentions that she already has an attorney. But doesn't name that person. She'll have to explain who the attorney is and if the attorney was paid and by whom. And why she's unable to retain her counsel now. And then they'll figure out if her shit has any fucking whatever. Parole officials, by the way, say that she refuses to accept responsibility for the crime whatsoever.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh.

[James Petregallo]

2004. Which is the way you get out on parole. 2004 is the 15th anniversary of the murder here. And Michael Pratt says he routinely visits Greenville. Especially on the anniversary of his brother's murder. Which is sad as fuck. He planned to arrive at Central park in Greenville at noon on Tuesday. Armed with a sign emblazoned no parole and thank you for the support he receives in town. He's supposed to walk around with a big sign that says no parole. Thank you on either side. He said we would never be able to do all we have done without all the help we've got from everybody that helped. That's a tough sentence. There's also a student reward. Rose Pratt took the $500 she got from the production from CBS. And set up an award in Butch's name at Steel Valley High School in Munhall. Given to an honor student who's also active in two sports and doesn't. And has no money to pay for college.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow.

[James Petregallo]

So 14 have been given so far and all have graduated college.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They said, what a great lady.

[James Petregallo]

That's pretty fucking cool. Yeah. She did the pittance she got from cbs. She gave it to the kids.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She gave away.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. So she said. So I'm trying to help through Butch. Trying to keep his memory alive. That's nice. At least she's not sobbing to her answering machine anymore. Poor lady. 2006. Michael is released from prison.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What?

[James Petregallo]

He's out parole.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He got almost 50 years.

[James Petregallo]

He knew it was up.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wow. He said way early. Huh?

[James Petregallo]

They won't hear me. I'm gonna get Christy real fucking fast.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh my.

[James Petregallo]

I'm gonna get me all Jesusy real quick. And that's gonna help. And it did help that they eat that shit up in the parole board. Wow. He's released from prison. He did go on. And it might be real. Too. He did go on to work as a prison minister after that. So he'd come in and minister to the other prisoners.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's stuck with it. Huh?

[James Petregallo]

Or he's sneaking meth in. We don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Mule and something in.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. He might just really have a lucrative business going on. And then the Lord Said, here, take this. 30 bucks. There you go.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So hard at the White Sea with the razor blade.

[James Petregallo]

With a razor blade. And then it disappeared. What? Thou snort atop the temple of the nostril.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So 2012. I don't remember what station airs this, but I killed my BFF. Whatever show that is, whatever station that is, it's 2012, so I don't think they didn't make Hulu. Didn't even exist. Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean, I've seen. I've seen the thing.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, it's on now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know. I don't know what it started on. Who knows or something.

[James Petregallo]

So one of those A and E or some. But this is episode season one, episode three. So they got. Wow. Quick early on.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It was his best friend.

[James Petregallo]

Their best friends, frat brother. Homicide is the name of it. 2012, October. October, here. Linda is released from prison really completely free and clear in Pennsylvania. Everywhere she's out, she's second to last one. That's what I mean. Yeah, she is. She. And it's funny, too, because she wasn't. I don't know if.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know if she's there when he died.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know if she's the second most responsible person.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, I don't know.

[James Petregallo]

It's weirdly enough, somehow I think it's Teresa is the second most responsible person because she lured him there. She's the one who lured him there. He wouldn't even have gone to fucking Akron if it wasn't for her.

[Jimmy Wisman]

But. But both. All the ladies left and.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And that dude is still standing there. His brother, but his brothers were. His brother scared of him.

[James Petregallo]

His brother's also watching him murder a man. So he's pretty responsible, too. I think he's number two. And then Teresa and then Linda and then Carolyn, because we don't even know what they told Carolyn. They could have just told Carolyn, we're going to a party, pick this guy up. She was the one driving. She doesn't know. But they say that she will spend two years and two months on parole. They said that essentially they were the parole board when discussing paroling her. They weren't going to parole her. They didn't want to parole her. But then one of them said, well, if we don't parole her then she's going to have no supervision when she's out. And that if we parole her now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We can keep an eye on her.

[James Petregallo]

Keep an eye on her. And if she fucks up, she's back in here for the rest of the sentence and more. So they said that Ms. Carlin will now have over two years to develop a life and contacts away from Mercer county and the persons connected to her case. Hopefully at the end of her parole, she will have no reason to return the fuck out of our county and stay out is what they said. Now Butch's brother here, Michael said about the whole thing, we'll let him kind of wrap this up. He said, I wonder how many kids he would have had, what would they have looked like. He said he would have been such a good dad. He said he tries to picture what Butch would look like today. This is 2018, so I mean think about that, how long ago that was and 30.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What is that? How long is that shit?

[James Petregallo]

That is 30 years. Yeah, that's 30 fucking years, man. He said, I wonder what he would look like today. Would he be gray, would he be bald? Would he have a mustache or a beard? Trying to picture whatever he wanted. Yeah. What would he look like? Who knows? So he said, butch, though for him, Butch is forever frozen as he looked in 1998 or 1988. It's just.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's terrible.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he's like Andy Richter's character in 30 Rock who's gotten a skiing, gotten an accident and thinks it's 1985 every day. Like that's how he thinks.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's terrible.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that's awful. He said, I think of him as a handsome 22 year old fresh out of college with a full head of red hair and a red mustache. He said, for the rest of my life he'll never be older than 22. He'll always look the same. Yeah, that's so sad. That's some sad shit. That's bad. Now there's been several different productions made about this True crime with Aphrodite Jones, Blood Brotherhood, Episode Frenemies, Shattered Bonds, what happened to Bobby Earl, of course, AKA Murder in a College Town, which is a much better name for a TV show than what happened to Bobby Earl. I killed my bff, frat brother, Homicide and Most Likely to Brotherly Love. So I think that's probably like younger people.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. It's all got the twist and plot of best friend killing himself, Killing himself.

[James Petregallo]

Best friend killing himself. Now, Eddie still in prison. He is at the Grafton Correctional Institute here where he was admitted on March 27, 1990. He has is all set for his first parole hearing in August of 2029.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Holy. Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Still to be 40 years, he's going.

[Jimmy Wisman]

To be up for parole, though.

[James Petregallo]

And yeah, that's 40 years in the joint, man. That's. That's tough.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And I don't want to get out at that point.

[James Petregallo]

I mean, you're only 65, he's only 64. I think if he gets out, he doesn't know shit. Oh, he doesn't know anything. He can't do this to be gone from the 80s until now 2029. Not even now 2029. We're not even gonna know what the fuck's going on in four years. We're gonna be like, what's this app? I don't know how to do this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Chevy dealers had Pontiac Phoenixes on the Phoenixes.

[James Petregallo]

Give this guy an iPhone and be like, fuck around with that. What the is this shit? I don't know what this is. Holy shit. Like, imagine that he has no idea what the world is, no idea how to operate in it. And I mean, he'll probably be happy that he'll at least. Does he get Social Security? No, he's never worked.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's never paid in.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What do you do? How do you help that guy?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know. Does that matter?

[Jimmy Wisman]

He needs five to three grand a month to survive.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And he's got nothing.

[James Petregallo]

Is there a minimum? Like, you know, even if you didn't put in, you get. We'd give old people something. I would fucking.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's a minimum wage. He can go earn that.

[James Petregallo]

I mean. Yeah, I know. If, like, if. Because I'm thinking like old timey. Like back in the day, a housewife never worked at all. But then the husband died. Would she just starve to death? No, I think she got her husband to his shit. So I don't know how that works, but he's. I think he's gonna have a hard time out there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Keep him in just because he can't make it out.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And Linda, I mean, Christ, she's in her 70s now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So, I mean, I don't know what's going on with her. I looked for an obituary, couldn't find one for someone with her date of birth. So I don't know. She's still alive, I guess, doing something out there. Michael's hanging out out there. Everybody that I understand is still alive from this case. Except for Butch, obviously.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

So. Damn, there you go. Everybody that is Hudson, Ohio. At least the murder part is Hudson, Ohio. It's about six different places. That's one of those. We could have picked four different towns to do this. And so thank you so much for listening to that. If you like the show and if you like how we tell these stories, please get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars. It really helps out a lot. You might think it doesn't, but it really fucking does. It takes 10 seconds. Hook it up. Thank you so much for doing that. Please head over to Shut up and give me murder.com. get your tickets for live shows. The virtual live show is still available to buy. It took place April 19th, the 4:20 virtual live show. And if you're within the two week window of April 19th, you can still purchase it. And I think it's our best one that we've ever done.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's so good.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, fucking hilarious. And we've gotten great feedback on it. So thank you everyone who bought that and thank you everyone who's going to continue to get it for the next couple weeks. We really, really appreciate that. Thank you. Also get your tickets for live shows in person. Live, which are Chicago at the Riviera, May 17th. Well, the next one's St. Louis, but that's sold out. You can't get the next.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right. The next one you can buy tickets too.

[James Petregallo]

You can get in Chicago. And I might advise you if you want to come for any of the rest of the shows for the rest of the year, get them now. Get them now because we have like half of those show shows after the summer are sold out already. So get in there and get them. Like Philly, D.C. seattle. Get those tickets now because like Portland, sold out. Grand Rapids, sold out. They're all getting sold out. San Diego's getting sold out. So I think there's a few left in Irvine. The Improv there. Yeah, get in there too. That'll be a fun one. Come to the Improv because we, we play theaters now. Yeah. And the Improv is a real. It's a real kind of intimate venue.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That one's deep. It's a. It's one of the bigger improvs in the country. It's going to be so much fun.

[James Petregallo]

It's going to be great or it's going to be a blast. So please come out and see us there and all that. Shut up and give me murder.com also certainly follow us on social media. We are at Smalltown Murder on Instagram, at Smalltown Pot on Facebook. You absolutely positively want to get patreon. Patreon.com Crime in sports is where you get all of your bonus materials. Holy shit. Is there a lot too. Anybody $5 a month or above. You're gonna get hundreds and hundreds of episodes you've never heard before to binge immediately. So some people say, oh, I'm all caught up. What do I do now? Hundreds of episodes to binge. We got you covered. Get in there and do that. And then you get new ones every other week. We're not done. We keep coming, man. We'll keep coming at you. So at you is a very important way to do it. Not on you. Not on you or in your direction. That would be gross. So definitely do that. What you're going to get this week here for crime and sports, which you'll get access to. We're going to talk about our second part of fraternity Hazing Accidents. Yes. These are horrible things that happen to people who were doing something dumb that they shouldn't have done to begin with. It's real stupid. And then for small town murderer, we are going to talk all about the Lori Valo Daybell trial that just finished in Arizona where she represented herself and it was all you could ask for from someone representing herself. Terrible at it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Everything we ever wanted.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, just really not good at this at all. Like, Ted Bundy was terrible, but at least he, like went to law school and knew something. She actually looks like she studied. We'll talk all about it. But she, ooh, boy, her crazy came out in court, we'll put it that way. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all of that and you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever lure us into a car to take us to a rural location and murder us. Hit me with them right fucking now.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This week's executive producers are Michelle Miller, who got a mortgage in the worst way. I hope you're doing well, Michelle. Congratulations, Michelle.

[James Petregallo]

I remember you. Thank you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, it's got ruined in a storm.

[James Petregallo]

That sucks.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Jordan Bennett in jolly old England.

[James Petregallo]

Her new English gal.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, she moved.

[James Petregallo]

She's complaining that Tim Horton sucks over there. I saw. I was like, oh, I'm sorry. You know, different.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Dipping his chicken and ketchup. That's gross. Kyle knocked that shit off.

[James Petregallo]

Jesus.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Karen Vanden Hendy. Hendon Vanden Hendy. I think Latonya Willis and Maddo. I don't. I don't know how to say that. I hope I got that right.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You guys are the best. Thank you so much for everything you're doing.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Keep it up, keep it up. Keep living right. We love you too much.

[James Petregallo]

Keep doing that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Keep, keep, keep on this side of the grass.

[James Petregallo]

You're the best.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Other producers this week. Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows. John Magnotto. Oh, I think we lost John. God damn it.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, no.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, he passed away. That's what happened. Well, John, I'm saying your name. Speak your name. I don't know. I miss you already.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Gary Howard. Happy hour checking in. In Freer, Texas. Janice Hill. Catherine Domero. Domer. Chelsea Ingram. Katie. Nope, that's Kate. Kate Kennedy. Janelle Aquistapachi. Thank you. Wayne Brown. Jordan Webster. Sarah Eld. Elba Elbadwi. Tana. Tana Krangle. Alicia Furquire Farquhar. What else do we got? Lana Reed. Jacqueline Tireman. Ethan Martinez. Renee Taylor. Deborah Spencer. Chris with no last name. Emily Boland. Bright. Michelle Milner. Shara. Shara Brown. Blake Gibb. Aaron Goats. Samantha Keeler. Allison Bryant. Courtney Eads with no last name. Colonial goat banger with no last name.

[James Petregallo]

Old school bewigged goat banger.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Christian Back. Michelle Montgomery. Angela McCormick. Ashwood. No last name. Adam Seal. Brett Marsh. Ron Davis. Ashley with no last name. Jennifer Heidkamp. Sherry Zyestra. Zilstra. Walter Butler. Christina with no last name. Vince with no last name. Jamie Rubio. Allison Woford. Amber McCarty. Mindy Welch. Sarah Sparks. Linda Oldham. Oldham. Oldham. That's gross. Ally with no last name. Shannon Spall and Spolen. Jacqueline Lowe. Rebecca Rebecca Goldsmith. Stephanie Lodisi. Elijah Mullins. David Powell. Janelle with no Last name. Richard McAllister. Alexa Kessel. Christian Shade. Shoddy. Perhaps. Kirk Barnett. Christy Pennington. Kevin with no last name. Riley Jones. Joneston Johnston, obviously. God damn it, you don't pronounce the H. Rachel Ballos. Tony Two times. Melinda. Fiddler Fidler. It's probably Fiddler. Deb Would. No last name. Karen Furn. Fernicola Furnicola. Yep. Woody with no last name. Anthony Rapacelli. Yep. Brandon De Haas. Tanya with no last name. Misty Marshall. Gents Jensey. Maybe. Bassette Basset. Gary Donault. David Sundstrom. Jasmine Villanueva. Matt Christian. Reese H. Colleen Tanaka. Brian Beard. Robert Joyce Edward with no last name. Jessica Spilly. Ham. Ham. I don't think that's true.

[James Petregallo]

I don't think that's true.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Molly Angle. Michaela M. Josh Moon Christie. What is this? Mamarello Cecilia Edward Zachary. Mangles. Donnell R. Aaron Spence. Josh. Nope, that's Scott. What? Scott Bergland. Why did I do that? Veronica Veronica Bottel. Ho. But Beth in Boston. Jay Briz. Schwabi. Schwabi schwab. 19. Jennifer G. Robin DeFranzo. Nikki Corbin, Sam Devine, Russell Payton, Cheryl Burnett, Sherry Patreon Swan. Alden. Aiden Swan. Aiden Kelly with no last name. Katie Nickel. Nickel. Probably Michael Weeks. Dylan Jessup. M and K. The letters M and K. Magen. Or Megan. Megan. Tara laporte. Arabella with no last name. NASA Necessaris with no last name. Melissa Richards. Jason. Connie Kanetska. Connie what? Konieska. I don't know how to do that. Heidi.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Heidi. I don't know how to do yours either. Arns. Arn Suzuka. Our Susa. Our Sous lag.

[James Petregallo]

Those are three completely different names you just said. You guys can pick one that you want and figure it out.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Ashley Canton, Lizzie Palota Palada. Perhaps Alicia Clark, Michelle Ortiz. Or Ortez. Jenny Thiel. Stacy Frost, Shira Dawkins. Amanda Diller. Justin Justina Manspeaker. Mary Kate Costenza, Beth Rampley, Christopher Tarjan, Autumn Barrero, Shannon Depatti, Crystal Rucker, Beth Williams, Lynn mood, Stephanie Hafferty. Icelander 2733. James Jackson, Matthew Lear, Amanda Prince. Dark side Dole. Dark side Dolls on Facebook. That's what that is. Carrie Frank, Luke Rogers, Carly Dir. What Durdinski. Sandra Rutherford, Robin Chambers, Marianne Keeswood Wells, Dalton Durbin. Dalton Durbin. Jesus, that's an interesting name. Justin Christ.

[James Petregallo]

Motorcycle jumper. Like evil.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Dalton Durbin. Christ. I hope that's your last name. Melissa Thomas, Ned White, Shannon Panga. Panagon Panagonopoulos. D. Tramble. Marlena Guadrama. What? Guadrama. Stephanie Puttman. Poop man Putnan. Jackie with no last name. Giraffe. Giraffe. Giraffe with no last name. Don Jackson and all of our patrons. You guys are the best. Thank you.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you so much, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all that you do. Honestly, you're the best. And we. We couldn't do without you. Thank you for everything. Patreon, you're the heart and fucking soul of what we're doing here. So thank you for everything. We really appreciate it. You want to follow us on social media? Head over to shutupandgivemeamurder.com there's dropdown menus. You can't stop them. They'll take you everywhere you want to go, God damn it. And won't even lure you to a wooded area to have you murdered. So do that. Keep coming back and hanging out with us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

[Jimmy Wisman]

By.

[James Petregallo]

If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad Free now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey in the early hours of December 4, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him. We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world and the suspect he has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was targeted, premeditated, admit to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever. He's awoken the people to a true issue. Free finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system. Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery on the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.