#594 - Family Murder Spree - Chugiak, Alaska

Summary

Podcast Summary: Small Town Murder Episode #594 - Family Murder Spree: Chugiak, Alaska Release Date: May 9, 2025 Hosts: James Petragallo & Jimmy Whisman

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Introduction

In Episode #594 of Small Town Murder, hosts James Petragallo and Jimmy Whisman delve into a chilling case from Chugiak, Alaska—a seemingly tranquil suburb where tragedy strikes unexpectedly. This episode uncovers the layers of a family-involved murder spree, exploring the motivations, actions, and aftermath of the perpetrators.

The Town of Chugiak, Alaska

Chugiak is portrayed as a small yet affluent suburb of Anchorage, Alaska, with a population of approximately 6,563. The town is characterized by large estates, extensive land plots, and a median household income of $69,000. Despite its size, Chugiak offers a close-knit community atmosphere with events like the annual Bear Paw Festival, featuring peculiar contests such as the Slippery Salmon Olympics and Human Foosball.

"Chuggiak was first really heavily settled in the 1950s, mainly from former military personnel who were stationed in Alaska during World War II. They just stayed up there."
— James Petragallo [06:04]

The Murder Incident

On the evening of October 19, 1990, a tragic event unfolded when an 18-year-old named Jeffrey Kane was fatally shot in the back of the head by a bullet fired from a passing car. Kane was in a red Toyota MR2, heading to a date, when his vehicle was struck by a bullet from a copper-colored AMC Eagle driven by Raymond (R.D.) Cheeley Jr., with Douglas Gustafson in the passenger seat.

"The bullet went through the rear window, hit Jeffrey Kane in the back of the head, killed him instantly."
— James Petragallo [27:42]

The Perpetrators and Their Background

Douglas Gustafson and Raymond Cheeley Jr. were both 18-year-olds residing in Chugiak. Gustafson worked evening shifts at South Central Air and was a baggage handler at the local airport. Cheeley, though driving Gustafson's car, had a history of vandalism and conflicts within the community, including a previous incident where he retaliated against a neighbor who caught him vandalizing mailboxes.

Peggy, Douglas’s older sister, played a significant role in escalating the family's criminal activities. Coming from a Jehovah's Witness family, Peggy had a tumultuous past, including shoplifting convictions. Her involvement deepened as she coordinated with her brothers to seek vengeance against Jeffrey Kane, whom they wrongfully blamed for the earlier highway shooting.

The Investigation

Following the murder, George Kerr, a friend of Gustafson, felt guilty and reported the incident to the authorities. This act initiated a series of investigations that eventually led to the unraveling of the murder plot. Experts highlighted the improbability of accurately hitting a moving target under the described conditions, suggesting Gustafson's act was both deliberate and calculated.

"Hitting a moving target in the first place is tough. And then when you're moving also, it just adds to the problem."
— Jimmy Whisman [28:52]

The Bombing of David Kerr and Michelle Kerr

In a bid for revenge, the Gustafson family orchestrated a bomb plot targeting David Kerr, George Kerr’s father. On September 17, 1991, David and his wife Michelle received a mailed package that exploded, killing David instantly and leaving Michelle with severe injuries. The bomb was meticulously crafted by Peggy with the assistance of her brother Craig, involving intricate components that evaded prison security measures.

"I sent that puppy flying over my car, and I looked back and he moved, and I went back and he was still alive. And Douglas said, so you backed over it? No, she replied, I let him know exactly who I was, and then I broke his neck."
— James Petragallo [60:00]

The Arrests and Trials

The investigation led to the arrest of Douglas Gustafson and Raymond Cheeley Jr. in November 1990. Peggy and Craig Gustafson were apprehended in 1992 for their roles in the bomb plot. Their trials revealed the extent of the family's involvement, with Peggy expressing remorse during sentencing, claiming her actions were influenced by her brother's behavior and personal turmoil during pregnancy.

• Douglas Gustafson was sentenced to life in prison without parole, plus an additional 30 years for tampering with evidence.
• Raymond Cheeley Jr. received two life sentences without the possibility of parole, plus 85 years.
• Peggy Gustafson was sentenced to 24 years and three months in prison.
• Craig Gustafson initially fled but later pleaded guilty, receiving 21 years and 10 months, followed by five years of probation.

"If I could give my life to bring David Kerr back and fix Mrs. Kerr, I would. Fix her face."
— Peggy Gustafson [69:25]

Conclusion and Aftermath

The Chugiak murder spree left an indelible mark on the small community, illustrating how underlying family issues and misguided vengeance can culminate in devastating violence. While most of the perpetrators remain incarcerated, the repercussions of their actions continue to affect the lives of those involved, particularly Michelle Kerr, who endured lifelong physical and emotional scars.

James and Jimmy conclude the episode by reflecting on the severity of the crimes and the lasting impact on Chugiak, emphasizing the unpredictable nature of small-town dynamics and the hidden darkness that can lie beneath seemingly peaceful façades.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Murder in the second degree is when you commit an act that's so outrageous you would have to assume it endangers life."
  — James Petragallo [42:10]

• "It's one of the worst second degree murders he could think of... is among the very worst that could be possibly done."
  — Judge during Sentencing [47:04]

• "You're never getting out of prison."
  — James Petragallo [75:38]

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Key Takeaways:

• Family Dynamics: The Gustafson family's internal conflicts and misguided loyalty led to extreme actions.
• Community Impact: Small towns can harbor hidden tensions that, when ignited, result in tragic consequences.
• Justice System: The trials showcased the complexities of prosecuting familial conspiracies and the challenges in ensuring fair trials amidst high publicity.

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Listen to the full episode for an in-depth exploration of this harrowing case and the intricate web of motives that fueled the family murder spree in Chugiak, Alaska.

Transcript

[James Petragallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, shutterfly.com.

[James Petragallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petragallo]

Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit more about aura frames. What are you going to get your mother for Mother's Day? Something boring. Here's a gift certificate. Or don't do that. Mother's Day gifts are a little predictable. You can be unpredictable. Here, get them an aura frame named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter. And it's great. You're gonna love it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's terrific.

[James Petragallo]

I have literally gotten every single member of my family aura frames. It's the best gift. Everybody uses it, too. Every single person has it on their counter, and it becomes a focal point for when you're hanging out over there. Oh, there's a picture of grandpa. Oh, look, it's that. It's so cool. And you really need this. And aura frames come with unlimited storage, so you can share as many photos as you want from your phone to Mom's aura Frame. Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, our listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling carver mat frame. That's auraframes.com promo code. Small town murder. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And now back to the show.

[Unknown]

You're not at your house.

[James Petragallo]

You're at a lavish seaside estate. You're not walking the dog. You're hunting for clues in an Agatha Christie mystery. See it differently with Britbox. Stream an endlessly entertaining collection of British tv, including new original series Ludwig, starring David Mitchell. Bit awkward, really. I think I might just have solved a murder. And outrageous. A scandalous true story. Seems there's a political extremist in every family these days. See it differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Hello, everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay. And choo choo. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm Jimmy Whisman.

[James Petragallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us. All aboard the murder train pulling away from the station. We got some crazy stuff for you this week. It's up in Alaska and people move there to hide out and, and apparently murder each other. So we'll find out all about that. It's pretty wild stuff. Before we get to that, very quickly, head over to shut upandgivememurder.com get your tickets for live shows. Chicago, May 17th at the Riviera. Get your tickets. Still some left for that show. St. Louis the Night before is sold out. Chicago, do you want St. Louis to beat you in ticket sales? I don't think you do. I don't think Chicago wants St. Louis to beat them in anything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Anything.

[James Petragallo]

Hockey, baseball, whatever, ticket sales. So get in there, get your tickets right now. Get them for the rest of the year too, because they are going fast. We have shows in November that are sold out. So get them. Get them right now. Shut up and give me murder.com. also get all your merch while you're there. If you've listened to everything else, you listen to crime and sports, all 10 parts of Evel Knievel that we just finished up, which is wild. You listen to your stupid opinions. Our other show about crazy Internet reviews and you still want more. We have more for you. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all of the bonus material. Patreon is p a T r e o n by the way, that anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get, first of all, a gigantic hundreds of episodes Deep back catalog that you're going to be able to binge on as soon as you subscribe. And then new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. You get it all, everybody. So this week, what you're going to get for crime and sports, we are going to talk about college coach sex scandals. They are the horniest people in the world. College college athletics coaches, man. They are. Wow. They have a lot of affairs and do a lot of weird stuff. So we'll talk about that. And then for small town murder, we're going to dip into some death row last meals.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

We did one a few years back on some of the more famous ones, but we're gonna go a little under, dive a little deeper than that this week and find some weird last meals that people had or just some last meals. I find the psychology behind the last meal fascinating. So check that out. That is patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the show, so can't beat that. That said, I think it's time, everybody, let's do this. Let's sit back. Let's all clear the lungs here. Arms to the sky and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's go on a long trip. We're going up to Alaska this week.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

This is who? Chugiak. I've, I've, I looked it up and I've heard three different pronunciations. I've heard Chuggiak. I've heard Chugiak. C H U G I A K. Alaska.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a very thirsty yak.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, I tried. I really did. I looked it up. I really tried to get it, but it's people. It's apparently a disputed pronunciation. This is down in southern Alaska. It's a kind of a suburb of Anchorage. Basically, it's about a half hour to Anchorage, about six and a half hours to our last Alaska episode, McCarthy, Alaska, which was episode 533, Mountain Massacre. And it was a wild one because all the Alaska ones are crazy. They're all nuts. Population of this town, 6563. So pretty small town. But for Alaska, I think it's about the fourth largest city in the whole state, probably for Alaska. There's not a lot going on there. Median household income up here and it's usually about 69 grand. In the rest of the country, $143,312. Wow. Yeah, that's My God.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What are they doing?

[James Petragallo]

They're people that. This is a suburb. This is like the, you know, nicer outside of Alaska. Plus there's a lot of large estates, like large land things out. If you buy a house, it has 30 acres with it. It's not just a. It's not a little quarter acre plot or something in a neighborhood. Median home price here, and it reflects it. $417,563. So, yeah, it's a little pricey. And everything is. Yeah, and everything is expensive in Alaska except for, like, you know, salmon and bear pelts probably. I assume everything else is gotta be brought in. Yeah, that's plenty. You get plenty of those. Halifucking halibut is just dirt cheap. Sell it out of buckets on the sidewalk. But whole filets history of this town. The settlement along the Palmer highway in an area that had begun, I guess, had been home to the. I am going to absolutely destroy this. The tribe that was here before Denia Ina. Athabascans. Athabascans? Yeah, Athabascans. Wow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Are there apostrophes in there?

[James Petragallo]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. This is not an easy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a tough language.

[James Petragallo]

Holy. I don't get it. It's tough. For thousands of years. And was named Chuggiak or Chugiak in 1947 by, you know, people who came here. Non native people here that came here. It is said to have come from a native word meaning place of many places.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right.

[James Petragallo]

Wow. Why would you have a word for that? For some shit that makes no sense? And Chuggiak means also mushroom trip, as a matter of fact, also because that makes me feel like I'm on one. Chuggiak was first really heavily settled in the 1950s, mainly from former military personnel who were stationed in Alaska during World War II. They just stayed up there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah.

[James Petragallo]

They were like, oh, this is nice up here. So, yeah, it's. This is a kind of suburban expansion of Anchorage is basically what this is. Here are some reviews of this town. Here we go. Five stars. Chuggiak is a small town neighborhood. A close community that bands together when the need arises. Everyone knows everyone and they look out for each other, whether it's through community prayer or just pulling over when one of their own is having car problems. Well, yeah, you have to do that. Otherwise they'll be eaten by a bear on the side of the road. I better pull over before a grizzly comes out of the woods and takes him. It's a great community to be a Part of. Here's four stars. There are both positives and negatives about living in a small town. But there are many activities to keep the community involved. My favorite is the top notch community band. Available to anyone and everyone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What does that mean?

[James Petragallo]

I don't know. I don't know. If you call them up and they come over and play a song. I don't understand. Available to anyone and everyone. Picture a bunch of. A bunch of guys sitting in a shed with their instruments awaiting the call.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You're allowed to listen.

[James Petragallo]

You're allowed to listen. Four stars again. Chuggiak is a suburb outside of Anchorage. It is surrounded by ocean and. And mountains which offer lots of opportunities for skiing, snowboarding, hiking, kayaking, fishing, hunting and much more. It's a safe town with a lot of parks for sports. There isn't much nightlife here, but you can find that in downtown Anchorage, which is only 20 minutes away.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There it is.

[James Petragallo]

All that hot Anchorage nightlife that you're always hearing about. You hear about. You know, you hear certain spots. You know what I mean? Hollywood's got some cool shit. New York, Miami. You heard of Vegas, Nashville, Chuggiak. You know, it's all. It's all pretty relative, I think. Things to do here. The Bear Paw Festival. Bear Paw?

[Jimmy Whisman]

The whole festival.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. The Chuggiak Eagle River Chamber of Commerce presents the annual Bear Paw festival. The whole town turns out for a weekend filled with fun for all ages. Sometimes unexpected, but always a good time. Events run the gamut. The Slippery Salmon Olympics are perhaps the best known event. Slippery salmon. Yeah, I think we know what that is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Grab it by the hand. Yeah, grab it with your hands.

[James Petragallo]

Teams of two race against the clock and each other with real salmon as the critical item to take along while tackling all the obstacles. You have to run like a. An obstacle course while carrying salmon.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Carrot.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, Like a football.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gasoline or something on it.

[James Petragallo]

Grease it up. Greased up salmon.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The running salmon from a Diddy party.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, that's all it is. It's got a lot of lotion on it, A lot of sanitizer, a lot of baby oil. What'd I say? Sanitizer. I meant to say baby oil and sanitizer came out. I don't think you want to use that as lube. That would be better. This is making my ass hurt even worse than it should. Jesus Christ.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why are you using now? It's got alcohol in it.

[James Petragallo]

Ow. Ow. Also, the running of the bears.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Which would be way worse than the running of the bulls. I would Imagine. Yeah, that's a bull.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's got claws.

[James Petragallo]

A 300 yard fun run races alongside costumed animal mascots for many levels. Who cares? That's stupid. Just some guy trying not to fall over because his head is too much, too much weight for him, that's all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They probably chug beer or something and then do it. Or you can't do that.

[James Petragallo]

Would be not fun at all. At least be stoned for that, you know. And also human foosball takes the popular rec room game and replaces the plastic men with real life players. That's called soccer, everybody. Are they connected to a giant pole over their heads? If not, that's soccer what you just described, not fucking foosball.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Are you kebobing these people?

[James Petragallo]

If not, I don't get it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Other popular events include the Teddy bear picnic. I assume that's for children. I hope up there though. I think teddy bears would have a different connotation because bears are scary there. They're not like cuddly. It's holy shit, watch out. They're a real. They're a real problem. A classic car show, a parade, carnival rides and the. I did a duck race, which who can come inside a duck fastest is what that is. Which end either way. Whatever. Whatever floats your duck boat, whatever. You're not sure. Yeah, which is a rubber duck regatta actually. Which made it sounds not like that at all. It sounds gross. That said, let's talk about some murder here that took place because this is some twisted shit, man. This is one of those that maybe could have been a full length episode. So we're going to hit the high points here. Okay, let's start out on the evening of October 19, 1990. All right, now on this night there are. There's a car driving down the highway, all right, and this is. Got some people in it. It has a young man named Douglas Gustafson, who's 18 years old. It's his car. It's a copper colored AMC Eagle.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hell yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Hot shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a fun car.

[James Petragallo]

If only there were some wood paneling on the side, it'd be perfect. So it's his car. And in the car is George Kerr, who's a friend of his. And driving the car, even though it's not his car and it's Gustafson's car is a guy named Raymond Cheeley Jr. And R.D. he goes by R.D. cheeley Jr. And he's 18 also. So three 18 year old kids in the car, George Kerr in the backseat, Douglas Gustafson, whose car it is in the pass seat. Rd Chili doing the driving here for some folks.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Jesus.

[James Petragallo]

Some od re about 3 guys in a car. 318 year olds and in an Eagle. In an Eagle. That's a four. It's a. It's not a two seater. An Eagle? No, no, it's a piece of. It's just a box. Yeah, well, I've stuffed like six in an Escort, so it's not a problem. Teenagers, we used to put people in the trunk for sake. It's just hang on the roof. It's not that far.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That Escort hatchback had people in the.

[James Petragallo]

Oh, for sure, Absolutely. Like. Okay, so now, Doug Gustafson, he comes from an interesting family, to say the least. Here we'll talk about his family a little here as a little background. Now, first of all, they're Jehovah's Witnesses, this family. Okay. Now, he has two siblings. He's got. Peggy is his sister. She's older. She's about nine years older than him. A little bit about Peggy because she's a wild card here. Apparently they're from Michigan, this family. I don't know if they moved here to knock on doors in Alaska or spread the word of Jehovah or whatever they're doing, but they're from Michigan. They moved here. She has moved around a little bit because she was married and stuff. At this point in 1990, she's a dental assistant and her boss says she's a very good dental assistant who meets the public well and seems concerned and caring with her patients. So that's nice. She spent her teen years caring for her younger brothers. She described it like one of my own children. She said she got her driver's license as soon as she could so she could do the family shopping and errands and stuff like that so she could help take care of the brothers because there's another younger brother named Craig. Also, there's two brothers and a sister here. Now, apparently she said that there's a lot missing from her memory as a child. There's been abuse in this family as well that we know of. And when we hear what they do, you go, yeah, this doesn't. Normal families don't have the whole. Everyone in the family do this. Now, Peggy got married in 1980 when she was 18 years old, 17 maybe. She married a guy named Craig Behrens in Washington state and they had a daughter named Amanda a couple years later. Apparently Amanda had some problems. A friend of hers said Peggy put a lot of money into her daughter, which sounds weird. You put A lot of money into like an old car or into like a house you're flipping.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Generally to improve it or fix it.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. You just say you're taking care of your child and say putting a lot of money into this kid. I should do that Every time my daughter smiles. Put a lot of money in that face right there. That's a lot of. You got a lot of braces and everything else all fixed up now. So she said she put a lot of money in her daughter. She was born with a cleft palate and needed a lot of hospital care. Peggy did all of that. So the Barons ended up moving to her and her husband, the Barrons as a couple moved to Miami, Florida.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure.

[James Petragallo]

Which you can't get further like climate or geographically. Geographically than Alaska and Miami.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Across the entire whole country. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Holy shit. Where they were divorced in 1987. She's got a new husband as of 1990. But she's also had some run ins with the law. She was convicted twice in 1990 for shoplifting. Peggy was. Yeah, that's. She's like A what, a 27 year old lady? You're too old to shoplift at this point.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Cleft palate. If you were born with a cleft and had it fixed, you can't break the law.

[James Petragallo]

No, no. That's her daughter. Oh, remember Peggy? Peggy put a lot of money into her daughter. Remember?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Got it.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. With the cleft palate, you can't be. No, no. Yeah, you might be noticeable. Yeah, you might be noticeable. So she's convicted of shoplifting twice for trying to take perfume from Lamont's some store and for taking about $110 in merchandise from the Cars quality center on Diamond Boulevard. A Cars employee, guy named Anthony Rice tried to stop her when she was shoplifting and she bit him. She bit the security guard for trying to stop him. She was sentenced to about 22 days in jail. And that's about it. She never served her sentence. She never showed up to report. So she has a look at warrant for her the whole time for all of this. She's also charged with theft in January of 1990 after prosecutors say she took more than $50 in coats from Lamont's also. So Lamonts is her spot now in recently here because we're starting out in October 1990. Over the summer and in recent months she was accepted as a pre major in the three year dental hygienist program at the University of Alaska Anchorage. And she just had another son and all and she just got married and so she's trying to turn it all around here. And I, I don't know if she was just a single mom with a couple of kids and medical problems and just decided to shoplift. I'm not sure what's going on there. But anyway, there's also Craig Gustafson. He's the middle child here he is in between Peggy and, and, and Doug. He's born in 1967. And then Douglas Gustafson is the one in the car who owns the Eagle here Now. Doug works the evening shift at South Central Air and South Central Air and is a baggage handler at the airport. All these guys work at the airport, by the way. Everybody here now, like I said, he's got the friends in the car. George Kerr in the backseat. RD Chile driving his car for some reason. Gustafson's in the passenger seat. Doug. And Doug Gustafson is holding an HK rifle, HK 91. Okay. He had just bought it that day. Just bought it. He's just holding.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wander around with it.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. In the passenger seat with sitting on his lap. There's other guns in the car as well as we'll find out. But because they just, they went target shooting earlier and in Alaska, to have high powered weaponry with you all the time is extremely common apparently up there. From what I've seen at any point, a gigantic monster, deadly animal can attack you when you need to have like a high powered weapon with you at all times or else you'll be eaten. It's, it's not, you know, it's not a, it's not a civilized area.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, no forgiving climate.

[James Petragallo]

No, it's not. Yeah, no, it's not. And if you're out in a rural area, you are in bear country and in who the fuck knows what else is up there. The moose are dangerous, for Christ's sake. They'll attack caribou, wolves. There's all kinds of crazy, all sorts of shit up there. So they were headed for a big night of partying. Boy. Three 18 year olds out on the town. They were headed to the Big timber motel on 5th Avenue where they plan to listen to this get down tonight. They're gonna party. They're gonna rent a room, quote, watch MTV and party.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sounds great.

[James Petragallo]

That sounds. How would you like to go in a time machine to 1990 and make yourself 18 years old and you're going to go party in a room and watch some fucking mtv. That sounds awesome, right?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Smoke weed and drink beer.

[James Petragallo]

Watch MTV on Kurt Loder and Tabitha Soren. Tabitha Soren that's it. Yeah. Shit, that sounds awesome. So earlier in the day, Gustafson Doug had purchased the HK rifle from a local dealer and had it in the car with him. It's apparently at that point it was selling for about $1,000 in the gun catalogs. Really in 1990. Very expensive gun. Yeah. Not a. Yeah, not a cheapy. Apparently they had stopped making it is why. So it's expensive. They stopped making it like the late 70s or something. So apparently it's a pretty badass gun. I mean it's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It sounds like it. Yeah. What caliber is it, do you know?

[James Petragallo]

It's a.308.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh yeah. That's a. That's a lot of weapon.

[James Petragallo]

That's not to fire them out that fast. Yeah. And there's two other guns in the car too. A.223 caliber rifle and a shotgun. Because they spent the day target shooting at the gravel pits in Uklunta or Uklutna. I don't know what the fuck. All right. As they're driving, I mean they're headed for. This is a big night on the town for these kids. And as they're driving, a red Toyota Mr.2 with dark tinted windows passes them. Now, anybody remembers A Toyota Mr.2? Basically I could pick it up and carry it with me in a place.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's like it's somehow a smaller Fiero.

[James Petragallo]

It's insane. I knew a kid that had one and he was like 5 foot 3. Like it fit him perfect. And he gave me a ride home from school one time and it was hilarious. I was like, this car is ridiculous, dude. I can't fit in this fucking thing. He had to like help me get out of the thing. It's so tiny. Real tiny little car. It looks like a toy. It doesn't even look real. It looks like something a rich person would buy for their 12 year old to drive around the yard. Doesn't. It doesn't look real. So Cheeley RD Cheely, the driver of the car thought the Toyota had tried to cut him off and also came a little bit too close to the side of his car.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He thought, this is an eagle. It's a priceless vehicle. It's an heirloom.

[James Petragallo]

So I'm gonna hand this down to my grandkids. What are we talking about here? So he thought he was trying to maybe rub up against the car type of thing. Like they were. Yeah. Dale Earnhardt passed him on the left and trying to push him off. So Cheerle gets really pissed off. This isn't even his car, by the way, as we know he's driving someone else's and said, hey, let's get those guys. Okay. And in a response, Gustafson in the passenger seat, Doug said hey, I'm gonna shoot that car. They didn't give him the finger as they passed. They just passed them, that's all. There's no reason for this whatsoever. So then Cheely and Gustafson are talking about shooting the Toyota. Should we shoot it or not? And apparently they said, well these, Sheely said, these guys are fucking with us. And Gustafson said all right, I'm going to shoot the car. And Sheely said let's get them. They're not going to push us around. Let's show these assholes. Okay, okay.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now they're hyping each other up.

[James Petragallo]

Yep. And the two in the car didn't even notice them. They were just driving. They didn't even care. They were doing their own thing. They had another big night ahead of them. Here the Toyota. Inside the Toyota are two people. Rob are Robert Chamberlain is the driver and his passenger is Jeffrey Kane. They're both 20 years old. C A I N Kane. Now they're about to exit the highway at the Muldoon Avenue exit. The Toyota is by the way, Jeffrey Kane is a computer operator at Fort Richardson and he was just closing on a two bedroom house near his parents house as well. So he was doing well for himself. At 20 he was staying temporarily with his parents while his house closed and he had a date with his girlfriend later that night. Oh, he was hooking it up. Rather than, you know, having a circle jerk while watching MTV in a motel room, he was going to hook up with an actual female here. So he told his dad, I'll catch you later when he left. And this is about 9:30 that night. Now they're driving. Their plan is to get off on the Muldoon Avenue exit and go to the Kentucky Fried Chicken. Not. Not for chicken to pick up Kane's car. He had parked it there earlier in the day. So that's how it happens. The Toyota's in the far left lane doing the passing. So they see this Toyota Mr. 2. This is Gustafson and Chile and Kerr in the other. In the Eagle here. The eagle sees the Mr. 2 about 100 yards ahead. So Cheeley hits the gas and gets up to about 80 miles an hour. Yeah, Doug rolls down the passenger window and rests the hk by the way, it's like an assault rifle if you don't know. So it's got A one of those. So he rests the HK on the ledge, the barrel on it ready to shoot. As Cheeley approaches the Toyota, he slows down so Doug can have a better shot, more steady thing here. So as Chamberlain slowed down to go to the ramp, that's when Doug fired the rifle at the car. So it's going like that. So the bullet went through the rear window, hit Jeffrey Kane in the back of the head, killed him instantly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dang.

[James Petragallo]

One shot, back of the back of the skull. Oh boy. Dead. So Chamberlain. Holy shit. What the fuck? He's driving. He raced to the KFC and called for help because the KFC is right off the highway. So he calls for help now. It's fucked up. Jeffrey's mom, Teresa said he's a nice kid who didn't deserve what he got and said, you know, the last thing that she said was while he was heading out was she asked him if he needed any money and he told her, no, he's fine. And the mom said, he looked at me and said, mom, I really love you, and then left. The dad said it's a stupid and needless death. And you know, basically this is ridiculous. It's stupid. Now a local gunsmith, kind of the local gun guy here named Will Fowler, he said that the shot described with both cars moving is a very difficult shot, even for a very good, for an expert marksman, that's not an easy shot. You might, might seem like it is, but the way things are moving and the way physics work, it's not easy at all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hitting a moving target in the first place is tough. And then when you're moving also, it's just adds to the, adds to the.

[James Petragallo]

Problem and anybody slows down or speeds up a half a mile an hour, the whole thing's off. So. And they said also the Toyota had heavily tinted windows, so you can't see shit. Damn good shot. They said the average person shooting in that situation would be lucky to even hit the car, nevermind get through the window and hit someone in the head. So this is. And then they drive off in the Eagle. And that's how this goes. Now this isn't the first time that Kerr and the Gustafson boys and Cheele have had some dumb shit. Let's talk a little bit more about them. Summer of 1989. So the previous summer, year before, they got into some bombs then like boom.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Explosives, but like got into some bombs, like found them or like got into it. Like you get into Flock of Seagulls.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, get into it like it's like. It's something cool. Get into, like sniffing glue. Basically got into glue for a little bit of glue. There's a neighbor named Roy Kennedy. He lives near the Kerr household where George Kerr, the guy in the backseat of the Eagle, lives. Y and basically, at one point, this Roy Kennedy caught R.D. cheeley and somebody else vandalizing his mailbox and shot out the back window of Cheele's truck in the summer of 1989. That's the response in Alaska is shoot first and figure out shit later. Apparently. So Cheeley, Doug Gustafson, and George Kerr, the three from the car, put a pipe bomb with a fucking timer delay circuit. Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is, like bombed somebody.

[James Petragallo]

They put it on the motorhome's gas tank. The guy who shot at them, he shot at them because they were vandalizing his mailbox. And now they're so mad about that, they're gonna blow up his house. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about our safest sponsor, Simplisafe. We love Simplisafe. Easy to say. We love it. You make decisions all day long. That's all we do. But one of the easiest decisions we've ever had to make is to secure our homes and offices with Simplisafe. They're so good. When you arm that system, you know that your family's gonna be protected. I do. I know. I'm like, everything's protected. My pets are protected. My. My stuff is protected. It's fantastic. You could, whether you're stepping out for the day, whether you're gonna go to sleep at night, that is going to give you peace of mind. Just knowing that you are going to be secure in there. You can focus on what matters. I rest easier. I can go about my day knowing that if anything happens at all, floods, fires, burglaries, whatever happens, Simplisafe has got my back. They have me covered and they give me confidence, and I like it. Visit simplisafe.comsmall to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's S I M p l I safe.com small there's no safe like Simplisafe. Now back to the show. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit more about Thrive Market. Jimmy, myself, we both want to be healthy and know how to eat healthy. But the thing is, where do you start with that if you don't know what you're doing, it's very Difficult. And that's why we love Thrive Market. It's our go to online grocery store for getting all of the healthy essentials delivered. And we don't even have to leave the house. It's the no junk online grocery store that bans over 1,000 harmful ingredients from anything they have there thing. I know you have one thing you're.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Particularly pasta sauce drives me bananas. And rouse is rouse is there and it tells me what's, what's good and what's not.

[James Petragallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

Back to the show.

[James Petragallo]

Okay, so Kennedy, the guy who lives there, said he had decided to teach a lesson to the vandals who had destroyed 15 to 20 of his mailboxes over a six month period. Dude, I would just get decoy mailboxes at that point that were just 14ft in the ground in solid steel. So you hit it with your car or a bat, you're gonna feel that shit. No box. Nothing's in there. Just a solid steel box.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The fence would just be. Every column would be a mailbox.

[James Petragallo]

Who knows which one it is?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, take a guess.

[James Petragallo]

So this guy said I was armed, needless to say, and I punched about six holes through the back of the pickup truck with my rifle. The next night I was gone about 30 minutes and my motorhome blew up. They blew his house up. He said the bomb did not ignite the gasoline when it ruptured the tank though, thankfully. So it was less of an explosion. This guy reported the incident to police, but nothing ever happened after that, even though he said this is who did it. Now back to October 19th and the shooting day. Now, after they shoot Jeffrey Kane and you know that car, the Mr. 2 goes off the highway and the eagle keeps going. Apparently, according to George Kerr, the guy in the backseat, Doug Gustafson, didn't know that he had hit anybody at the time. There's really no way to. No way to know if you hit anybody. I mean, the car didn't go out of control like grand theft auto when you shoot somebody. So they figured he didn't hit the driver, but either way, the guy in the backseat. Kerr was very upset and asked to be let out of the car so he could take a cab home. He didn't want to go party. MTV was ruined for the night. Just ruined, you know. So Gustafson and Sheely, though, they continued on to the Big Timber Motel where they continued their plans for the night. MTV and, I don't know, fingering each other. I'm not sure. Yeah, right. So the next day, October 20, 1990, the guilt of all this must be getting to George Kerr, which is funny because he didn't feel guilty about blowing a man's house up at all. But this he feels guilty about, apparently, that Gustafson and Shealy were trying to hide evidence and Kerr was deciding whether or not to tell on them. So he talked to his boss at JD's Bar BQ, IN. That's how it's spelled, Bar BQ, one of those in Eagle river about the shooting. So he tells his boss about the shooting. This is what happened last night. Yeah, well, you know the assistant. We did the assistant manager at a barbecue joint. That's like a lawyer or a priest. You can tell them anything, really. Right.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I think it's like a therapist. Really?

[James Petragallo]

Really. A counselor, a therapist, a psychiatrist. It's similar. Similar, except he gives you pulled pork afterwards, which is way better than anything you've ever gotten at church. Admit it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That'll cure what ails you for sure.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, that'll do it. So his boss put him together with a lawyer he knew. And George Kerr and the lawyer head to the police station at 4:30 the next day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, we're gonna turn them in.

[James Petragallo]

George is not fucking around now. Kerr called his father from work and explained to him that he's helping. He's going to help the police in their investigation of the shooting. Kerr told his father he intended to engage Gustafson in a conversation that would be recorded by the police. So he's like, I'm gonna wear a wire and talk to this guy. So Kerr doesn't know, though, that R.D. cheely is in Kerr's father's house while this call is taking place right now. Right fucking now. So the dad is talking to him, saying, I'm gonna turn these guys in. And one of them is standing next to his dad right there. So dad's got to turn into quite the actor here. He does. And Kerr's father said that when he had when he. The phone conversation ended, Sheely asked him about the conversation, and the dad suspected Sheely might be involved also. So he lies to Cheelie and tells him that, oh, yeah, no, George said he's in Anchorage with his girlfriend. That's what the call was about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

So Cheele, though, after he. Then Sheely left. So Kerr's father called back to tell the police he thought Cheele knew or suspected that Kerr was helping with the authorities. So protect my son, essentially. Now they do just that, too. They wire up George Kerr and they send him out to hang out with Doug Gustafson to try to get a recorded conversation. So they fit him with the transmitter, they send him off. They drove around in the. In the AMC Eagle, of course.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure, sure.

[James Petragallo]

So this is on an early Sunday morning, and Gustafson made some incriminating statements before dropping George off. Now, they agreed that apparently there was a burglary that took place that we'll talk about of a place called Mike's Meats that George was involved in. And the prosecutors agree that they won't charge Kerr as an accessory or for the burglary he'd taken part in that night if he got the confession from Gustafson. So you get the goods and you're off the hook. At one point in the two different conversations, Kerr asked Gustafson why he killed the man. And Gustafson replied that he didn't mean to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I was just trying pot shots at a guy. Yeah, just shooting at a moving vehicle with people in it, you know, like.

[James Petragallo]

You do when they pass you, because that's annoying. So an article in the Anchorage Daily News recounted Kerr's description of the shooting. The article reported that when Kerr was asked to explain why CH had been driving Gustafson's car, Kerr stated that Gustafson viewed Shealy as an authority figure. Even though they're the same age, it's like his husband, like, you know, he's gonna drive and then they're gonna go to a motel room together. It's weird, strange. Like an old time couple or some shit. So the article also noted that a source described Cheele and Gustafson as trouble. Yeah, they blew up a guy's house, for Christ's sake. That's trouble.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They love improvised explosives, man. That's definition of trouble.

[James Petragallo]

That's trouble. So they said that on the recording, Gustafson gave a really crude description of the area where he had hidden the rifle. He just said an open area with trees in the vicinity of the Big Timber Motel. Police scoured the area, but didn't turn up the murder weapon. Doesn't know anything about it. They can't find it. So also, Gustafson said on the recording that he's a pilot. He's an 18 year old pilot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't think so.

[James Petragallo]

And talked on the wire about having access to the. To a plane if the police got onto him and he had to flee. He's gonna go fly away somewhere, fly out of here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But you know what? All those people up in Alaska, they fly everywhere. They do. They have water. Water. What are they? They have grocery, land on water. Everybody has them. It's crazy.

[James Petragallo]

It's wild up there. A lot of these towns are only accessible by air, right? So that's what they do. Everybody, they all got a fucking plane somehow. So strange. So they chose to follow Gustafson even though they had all the evidence they need because they thought maybe he would lead them to the murder weapon. But apparently he spotted them and started trying to like, drive evasively. So they just called ahead and had cops block a road and took him into custody. Now, a colleague of his at South Central Air, the airport Gustafson works at or the airline, said he was shocked to hear of this charge. He said he was very quiet and withdrawn. That's a pilot named Bob Edison. He said, yeah, he was very. Another guy said, yeah, real quiet and easy going. He's planning murders. That's why. So an article in the Chuggiak Eagle River Star newspaper quoted a teacher from high school who described Cheeley and Gustafson as, quote, gun nuts. And the article mentioned that Gustafson may have been involved in the Mike's Meats burglary that we'll talk about. But the article didn't tie Cheerlee to that incident. But he was involved. Now, that same day, Cheeley goes to another friend's house, apparently who he had talked to and made death threats to the friends, telling him, I'll fucking kill you if you say anything about anything I've done. It was like, gee, I don't. I'm not going to say shit. He said he would get revenge on anyone who provided information leading to his arrest for anything. There you go. So anyway, so Doug Gustafson's arrested here. R.D. cheeley is finally arrested on November 2, 1990. And yeah, they said that. They're, they're quoting. This is the lieutenant, Police lieutenant from Anchorage said, quote, murder. They charge him with murder in the second degree. And they say murder in the second degree is when you commit an act that's so outrageous you would have to assume it endangers life. Cheeley was driving the car. He was slowing down, maneuvering the car in such a way that Gustafson could get a shot off. We're going to get them both. Gustafson on first degree murder and Shealy on second.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, we're going to get him.

[James Petragallo]

The article further states that Shealy had also been indicted for tampering with evidence and for interfering with official proceedings for second second degree theft and second degree burglary in connection with the break in at Mike's Meats, which is a grocery store, and for second degree assault and for threatening a couple who knew about his involvement in the burglary because they told on him too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What did he take from Mike's?

[James Petragallo]

They took a bunch of money. They got a bunch of money? Yeah, a lot of money. They must have busted the safe or something because they got Thousands of dollars. $19,000 were stolen from Mike's Meats.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Mike's Meats has 19 grand on.

[James Petragallo]

It's probably three months worth of take. Basically they took or some shit, who knows? But the. Yeah, that's. That's wild. And they think that the. Basically they stole that money. And then that same day he went and purchased the rifle and then shot a kid with it. So big day. And then watched mtv. Big day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Mike's Meat's money.

[James Petragallo]

To get Mike's Meats money. Jeffrey Kane's dad said, I feel better knowing that somebody who is responsible or allegedly responsible, I feel better that they were apprehended and I can go on with my life now. Chile wants a change of venue because this is big news up there. Big news. They presents the Superior Court with a compilation of newspaper articles about the case and argues that the publicity makes it impossible to receive a fair trial. March 1991. Doug Gustafson goes on trial for this murder and they try him for first degree murder. But he is convicted of second degree murder and tampering with physical evidence. Okay. He is sentenced to. You, sir, may fuck off. 65 years for the murder and two years for tampering with evidence. See you later. Life's over and it's not even close to over in his court proceedings because he's all, there is another major thing that's about to happen here. This is nowhere near the end of the story. So Cheely keeps trying to get them to change venues. He brings in all these articles and, you know, all the articles describe what happened. So he's like, you know, people know about this shit, but the Judge ruled that they would deny the motion because they basically did the juror selection. And it's like, well, if we can't find a jury, then, yeah, we'll move it, but let's try to find a jury first. So April 1991 is Cheeley's trial. There's a jail tape, a tape of him talking to people, because he talks to people on the phone, and it's all recorded.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So, okay, so it's on the phone.

[James Petragallo]

On the phone, or in person. Cheeley's comments about the shooting are clearly discernible in this tape. In these tape conversations, they contain Cheeley suggestions to other inmates that because other inmates wear wires for him, that George Kerr fired the shot, not Gustafson, and that Cheeley had told Kerr to use his own gun, but that Kerr had used Gustafson's gun and that Kerr had intended all along to frame Gustafson and that Gustafson had hidden the gun. The next day, and the prosecution will call the inmate to the stand and talk about the tape conversations. And the prosecutor is going over all this. So you have these jail conversations, and he's got the transcripts on an overhead projector and all the whole deal. So not looking good. The jury here, they deliberate, and apparently the judge convened the court and read aloud a note from the jury. And they said, last night, one of the jurors drove out the Glen highway and Muldoon Road interchange and drove back and forth between the Fort Rich interchange and the Boniface interchange twice. This juror has not expressed her findings or opinions of what she saw or believed, etc. As we stopped her the minute she told us that she had done it. We would like to know if this trip was permissible or not. If it was, may she discuss her findings with the jury? The judges tell the jury, you're not allowed to do any of your own investigation. That's not allowed. So this is absolutely well outside the scope of what a juror is supposed to do.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why would they do that?

[James Petragallo]

That's crazy. The judge, you know, said. The judge talked to the juror, and she said she was trying to get it straight in my mind. I guess she added that the drive, that during her drive, she wasn't really looking for anything because I didn't think there would be anything to look for. I was just thinking. And I drove it twice, and I went home. She said she didn't stop. She didn't look around for evidence. She didn't make any time, anything, or take any notes or pictures. She said she Observed nothing different from what she had heard, what she had earlier observed when the entire jury was taken to view the spot.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay?

[James Petragallo]

So, yeah, they ended up basically saying that this didn't really matter is how it was. So they deny a mistrial. Cause the defense wants a mistrial for that. So instead they convict him guilty of murder in the second degree.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay?

[James Petragallo]

So during sentencing, the judge who he gives it to, this fucking Chili good in court, man, he says that it's one of the worst second degree murders he could think of. He said, quote, it's difficult to talk about one murder being worse than another murder, but indeed, one can categorize them. And considering the aspects which I've already reviewed here, it's clear to me that this murder, totally unprovoked of an unsuspecting person and committed in a way that in a very real sense threatened us all by its very random nature, is among the very worst that could be possibly done as a second degree murder. That's not a good start for Chile.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No. Maybe for me. Not for him.

[James Petragallo]

Not for him. That's not what you want to hear. He said there was plenty of time to think about what was going on. I'm convinced from the trial testimony that I heard and observed that Raymond Chile Jr. Not only incited this thing, but he created the whole incident out of whole cloth. The other car did nothing wrong. It was Ray Chili Jr. That invented an incident out of whole cloth. And then he incited Gustafson to take part in the scheme of events that came about. And then Ray Chili Jr. Sped up to catch the other car. And I'm absolutely convinced that when they got near the Muldoon overpass that he synchronized the speed of his vehicle with the speed of the victim's vehicle. Counsel can argue to me all year long that Mr. Cheeley did not pull the trigger. Indeed he did not. But he played a very direct role in the commission of this murder. He's fully as fully culpable as Gustafson. You, sir, may fuck off. 60 years in prison.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay, just as much.

[James Petragallo]

Almost just as much. Yeah. Really showed very little discerning between the two. Now Peggy is concerned about her reputation. The sister of Doug. Yeah, yeah. Her friend said she used that expression that maybe people didn't like her now because of her brother and she was afraid she wasn't going to be hired anywhere. I always thought that was real strange. I wanted to say, no, Peggy, nobody cares. How can anyone know that's your brother unless you tell them? You know, because she's married she can use. She has a different last name.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everybody in town that knows her knows.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah, but, like, she doesn't have to work in a small town. You know what I mean? Like, nobody knows who the fuck she is. They're separated by years. They're not like they're seen out together or anything. So summer of 1991, everybody's in prison and Peggy and her two brothers, Douglas and Craig, and R.D. chielli, who's in prison. So Douglas and R.D. are in prison, and Peggy is out, and so is Craig, who's the other Gustafson brother. Apparently. They come up with a little plan to get even. Okay. Together, they cook up a plan to get even with George Kerr for telling on them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

Okay. So September 17, 1991, David Kerr, who's George's dad, he's at home with his wife, Michelle Kerr, who's 34 years old. Not George, not George's mom, but stepmom. They receive a package in the mail.

[Jimmy Whisman]

No.

[James Petragallo]

They receive a package. David Kerr opens it, it fucking explodes. A major explosion, immediately killing David and absolutely mangling Michelle.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

Suffered massive facial, chest and neck injuries in the blast. Michelle had to undergo nearly a dozen surgeries to her face, torso, eyes and ears. It took surgeons three days to sew up her face, half of which was completely blown off in the blast. She has to have plastic surgery to straighten out her face. Basically, her eyes were cut by tiny pieces of glass that still worked their way out and send her back to the hospital. Every once in a while, she's got glass in her eyes. The deafening blast shattered her eardrums. Doctors repaired one eardrum, but they will not know for several weeks if it'll work or not. This is crazy. She also lost her sense of smell and taste and blew all her teeth out of her mouth. This woman is destroyed, Just destroyed. Poor lady. For a few days, she was unable to walk or talk at all. She passed notes to her sister and brother at the hospital telling them that she remembered the explosion. She later said, I asked them if Dave was dead, and they said yes, but I was pretty certain of that. Still, it took four days to sink in that my husband was gone.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure, yeah.

[James Petragallo]

So after the explosion, the next day. Remember Roy Kennedy? The guy whose motorhome got blew up there back in the day?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Well, he.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Did he get a package, too?

[James Petragallo]

No, no, no. But he heard about it and he said, that's interesting. He said, seems a bit, you know, coincidental. He said that, quote, I live probably three or four miles from Thunderbird Heights. That's the neighborhood where the Kerrs lived. And I don't know how many people know how to make bombs. It seems like kind of a rare talent to be able to make a good bomb like that. And so he said Thunderbird Heights is kind of close quarters to have two bombs go off in the same general vicinity. So I called the postal inspector and he took note of it. That puts in. That sets the ball rolling now. Okay? Because he says, listen, blah, blah, blah. The day after the bombing, one of Cheeley's cellmates told the police that Cheeley had a list of people he wanted to kill.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, that guy better be careful with this. Guy wants to send packages to people, and he's already been. He just sent it to somebody that's ratted on him.

[James Petragallo]

He just killed you from prison. He killed somebody. So, I mean, if you're in the cell with him, watch out. The list included the District attorney, police. Even the mafia doesn't kill the District Attorney. District. The District Attorney, police officers, all of the jurors who found him guilty.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

And the judge who presided over the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Trial, that is 14 people.

[James Petragallo]

Wow, that's a lot. That's. Yeah, at least all of the police, too. So the list was handwritten on the back of some legal documents in Chile's cell. The document, they said Cheeley told the informant that the people he wanted to kill, he would blow up either them or their houses. And the persons he wanted to suffer, he would wait till he got out of jail. Then he would dig a pit under his house so he could starve and torture them to death. Now he's Buffalo Bill. He's turned into angry.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Wow. Yeah. This chili, if you pass him on the highway, he wants to murder you. Like, this guy is nuts. So they do an investigation here. This is the postal inspectors, the Bureau of Tobacco, Alcohol and Firearms, you name it, the fucking FBI. Everybody's involved in this. When you're sending mail bombs that could affect anybody, ask Ted Kaczynski. They take that shit seriously. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Rocket Money. Smart money moves are all about getting more out of every dollar. With Rocket Money, you can easily find forgotten subscriptions and then have them negotiate bills for you. Putting money back in your pocket with all this savings, it's great. Rocket Money practically pays for itself. It really does. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. I've used Rocket Money because I, I was paying for something for like four years that I didn't use, which is amazing that they found that. Thank you, Rocket Money. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when they use all the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com SmallTownMurder today. That's RocketMoney.com SmallTown Murder RocketMoney.com SmallTown Murder.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[James Petragallo]

Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show and tell you about something awesome. Fast Growing Trees. Did you know Fast Growing Trees is the biggest online nursery in the US with thousands of different plants and over 2 million happy customers. They have all the plants your yard needs like fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs, and so much more. Fast Growing Trees makes it easy to get your dream yard order online and get your plants delivered directly to your door in just a few days without ever leaving home. This is awesome. This is very awesome. I love putting trees in the yard. You know that and I know you have planted a bunch in your yard. And I've done so much with my trees in my yard.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's fun to watch them actually thrive.

[James Petragallo]

I love it and I'm telling you, we have hired people to do stuff and I've complained about it on the show before, how expensive these people are. They turn you upside down and shake you, these tree people and landscapers. This is a great way to do it and save so much money. So much money. It is awesome. Absolutely. This spring they have the best deals for your yard. Up to half off on select plants and other deals. And listeners of our show get 15% off their purchase when using the code Small Town Murder at checkout. That's an additional 15% off at fast growing trees.com using the code small town murder at checkout fast growingtrees.com code small town murder Now's the perfect time to plant. Use Small Town Murder to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions apply.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Now back to the show.

[Unknown]

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[James Petragallo]

So they focused on Chilean Gustafson, who had a history of bullying witnesses. They said they got an affidavit and they piece this all together. They figure out that Peggy. Remember Peggy, older sister, while pregnant, at the direction of her imprisoned brother, built the bomb herself.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Peggy's a bombsmith.

[James Petragallo]

Pregnant, Peggy built a bomb.

[Jimmy Whisman]

God damn.

[James Petragallo]

She sat there in maternity clothes putting a bomb together. That's wild.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that.

[James Petragallo]

That's wild.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dangerous, man.

[James Petragallo]

Then a third sibling, Craig, the middle child, helped put the finishing touches on the device and package it for delivery. The whole family's involved here. Yeah, I'd rather have them knock on my door, talk about Jehovah's Witness shit like. And that's saying something because I don't want to hear that shit. So Cheeley and Gustafson vowed to get even. They were housed in different parts of the prison at the Spring Creek Correctional Facility at Seward. That's where Gustafson was. And then Cheele was at the Cook Inlet pretrial facility. They communicated through notes passed by a third party. Investigators said they interviewed an informant who, aided by his girlfriend who knew Chile, passed notes to Gustafson during prison church services. So she'd go get the note, then visit and take it over here and then. Yeah. Corrections officials said the bomb components allegedly smuggled into the Cook Intel Pre trial facility to be inspected by Gustafson before the bomb was made. They said the parts were so small that metal detectors and routine searches wouldn't have detected them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They missed them.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. So they said that the director of Institutions said security measures at the jail were sufficient to keep contraband from being smuggled in. But tiny plastic components about the size of a computer chip were not contraband. They were really looking for. They were looking for knives, guns, drugs.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Things that they can escape with.

[James Petragallo]

Prison stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I. Apparently it was Peggy who produced the bomb, constantly consulting with her incarcerated brother on how to hook the device up. Yeah, conversations between the two that were recorded by the jail were. They basically pretended to be discussing car repairs.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[James Petragallo]

They said that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Peggy, you got to get the.

[James Petragallo]

I got. I got quotes from that. Exactly. Oh. Investigators said Gustafson Peggy told her brother she burned up batteries trying to build the device. The document said that Peggy managed to smuggle parts of the bomb into jail so her brother could show her how to assemble the device. Here's a quote from the affidavit here. Doug and Peggy reminded each other to remember that they were discussing something to fix Peggy's car. Doug told Peggy that she should wire the two batteries, hook em both positive together and both negative, but not crossing over. They also discussed how Peggy and Craig stalked George Kerr. They called him Gorgeous, by the way. That was their nickname for him was gorgeous. She was trying to find out when he was joining the Navy because he had joined the Navy. They said they'd spotted him at work and driven by his house to see what he drove. Now, in a recorded conversation with Doug, Peggy described a graphic dream of vengeance where she had seen Gorges hitchhiking and ran him over. I sent that puppy flying over my car, and I looked back and he moved, and I went back and he was still alive. And Douglas said, so you backed over it? No, she replied, I let him know exactly who I was, and then I broke his neck. And then Doug and Peggy laughed. And then Doug said, I hope you took the car to the car wash afterwards. Ha ha ha. Holy shit. So then Craig. Enter Craig Gustafson. He's the one who's going to put the finishing touches on. And he's the one who'd been stalking George Kerr also to find out where he was and everything. They knew Kerr had enlisted in the navy but didn't know when he was leaving. The bomb got completed on September 13. It was described as a gray substance that filled half of a small white box in which were red and yellow wires and a battery. Yeah, they said that Craig asked at first Peggy what was in the box. And her answer was, quote, it's justice.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm carrying around some justice.

[James Petragallo]

This is some crazy shit here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

These are bad people, man.

[James Petragallo]

Sounds like it's the 1880s right now. They're gonna blow up a stagecoach because somebody told on them for.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They're gonna blow up a train and tie a woman to it.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. On the tracks. So apparently, they bring Craig in and talk to him. And Craig told authorities that two weeks ago, the whole scheme started when his brother and Shealy stole a large amount of explosives before their arrest.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

Don't know where they got that from. Craig became first aware of the plan to send the bomb when Peggy approached him weeks before the explosion. She asked her brother for Help with the device. And he drew her a simple diagram. Does everyone in this family know how to build a fucking bomb? This is crazy. Do you know how to build a bomb like that that goes off when you open a package? I don't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I only. I only know one bomb.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, yeah, we know that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's the only one.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Or the. There's other ones, but they're simple. They're not this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But. Yeah, they're not thi. There's no wires and batteries.

[James Petragallo]

No. It's shit that you make when you're 13.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

Blow up a mailbox. Exactly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's. Get the fuck away.

[James Petragallo]

Get the fuck away. Oh, man. I guess the box, it was a white box, about 8 inches by 8 inches by 8 inches. One of those. When he asked what it was, she said, it's justice. He also told investigators that he saw two mailing labels, One with George Kerr's name on it and address, and the other said state of Alaska on it. That was the return address. It just a typed out thing that said State of Alaska. Like the state sent it to him. So anyway, Peggy brought the bomb to Craig's house, fearing her husband would find it if she kept it at her home. Craig took the suitcase with the bomb inside, stored it in his truck until it was mailed. It was placed in a brown box addressed to George Kerr and sent to the house. And that is when David Kerr picked it up from the post office, took it home, and he opened it up to determine if it was something that needed to be forwarded to George. Because it said State of Alaska. That's why he opened it. Otherwise he would have just saved it for George. He stood near his wife and. Yeah. The package exploded with such force, killed him instantly, and blew out the kitchen wall. God dang decent bomb.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's force. Yeah.

[James Petragallo]

So Peggy gets arrested on April 1, 1992. She's arrested without incident at her home. And in the interval between arrest and arraignment, she confesses to everything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, yeah. What is she going to do?

[James Petragallo]

She'll later say that she wants it thrown out because they arrested her. She asked for a lawyer. And then a couple days later, she talked to them again without the lawyer, waved her Miranda rights and talked. But she said that they shouldn't have talked to her without the lawyer later on. But they say, no, no, no. You asked to talk. So everyone's arrested. Doug's arrested again, Cheelie's arrested. Even though they're in prison, Peggy's arrested, and Craig is arrested as well. Oh, and there's another guy. Ryan is his last name. He'll be arrested also for helping deliver the materials to Peggy. So the four could face the death penalty if convicted on federal charges of mail bombing. So murder and mail bombing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The mail part, like, makes it way worse.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it makes it terrorism. That's what. That's crazy. Craig remains at large. There is a $10,000 reward offered for his capture. And the other guys, the ones that were in prison, were transferred to a federal facility at that point. So they're. They're searching for Craig. He's 25 years old, and we're described as suicidal. They're looking for him. He hadn't been seen since Sunday. He is a maintenance worker at Northern Air Cargo. They search his house, and they find two letters in a drawer addressed to mom and dad and to Barb, who's his girlfriend.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, okay.

[James Petragallo]

Both signed by Craig. The letter to his parents read, I am sure that the cops will talk to you. Listen to them. What they say is true. It's not a government conspiracy. Because in Alaska, you have to. Back then. Now it's everybody. But back then, the conspiracy people moved to the middle of fucking nowhere. They moved to, like, the Upper Peninsula, Michigan, or fucking Alaska. So he said things got out of control, and I didn't have enough smarts to know when to say something like, stop. It's all true. I know. And he says, well, time to get I love you both and see you again someday. He quit his job after the interrogation that he went under, walked away from his rented home that he shared with his girlfriend and left two notes. That was it. He told the one he left for his girlfriend. Just said he was going out for a beer. Didn't explain anything else to her. He's arrested on April 17, 1992, in Hollywood, California. That's where he went. He went to Hollywood. That's pretty fucking funny.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Blend in for sure.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, you could be a weirdo. No one cares. So, July 15, 1992. Craig is going to plead guilty to this. He feels bad about it. And he doesn't seem like as big a scumbag as the rest of the family, if I'm being honest.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Seems like.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, well, he at least has remorse, you know? Nobody else does. Everyone else is pissed off they got caught. He agrees to testify against the others, too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's big.

[James Petragallo]

That's big. And the judge even said, I do believe that Mr. Craig Gustafson is not a danger to the community, at least not to the level of the others.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right. Pregnant ladies building palms For Christ.

[James Petragallo]

That's. Yeah. He is sentenced to. You, sir, may fuck off. 21 years and 10 months in prison.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a pretty good stretch, though. Jesus.

[James Petragallo]

Followed by five years of probation.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Okay.

[James Petragallo]

February 4th, 1993. Peggy pleads guilty. They have her dead to rights. I mean, it's everything. She pleads guilty in a Los Angeles federal court here. And she. During her sentencing, by the way, Douglas is also gonna plead guilty. We'll talk about him in a second. During her sentencing, she said that she first started helping Doug with his bomb plot because she thought it was George Kerr who had done the highway shooting. She said I was misled. She said I never thought Doug was capable of what the press said he did and what the court said he did. I thought my brother was innocent. Wouldn't you stop thinking that? Once he said, let's make a bomb to murder these people. Oh, man, he's capable of anything. She said that her brother became obsessed with getting back at George Kerr. And she tried to just keep him going until the appeal could come through. She said she never intended to hurt anyone with the bomb. She said she became more and more upset as her pregnancy progressed and her brother seemed to be suffering in prison. Then shortly before she was to mail the bomb, she said she was told that Douglas had been gang raped in prison. So now she's really mad? She said. Yeah. She said she never took it, the plot seriously until she saw news of David Kerr's death. Shortly after the birth of her son, she gave a bomb to somebody to finish off in mail. What are you talking about? She fucking typed out the mailing labels and everything.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why does she feel anything?

[James Petragallo]

She said, I was shocked, mortified. I had hoped this didn't have anything to do with what I had put in the mail. Are you stupid?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Wow.

[James Petragallo]

I was hoping someone else sent this family a bomb and it killed them. Not the one I made, right. She said. I was praying against all odds. She said she feels worse every day about it. She said, if I could give my life to bring David Kerr back and fix Mrs. Kerr, I would. Fix her. Fix her fucked up face.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Put it all together.

[James Petragallo]

I'm so sorry. If I could Humpty Dumpty her ass, I would. I'm so sorry. You don't know how much I hate myself. If there's anything I can do to fix this, just tell me what it is and I will do it. I bet the judge is gonna have a couple ideas.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Probably go to jail for a long time.

[James Petragallo]

She then said, it doesn't matter if I go to prison or I go home. I get harder on myself every day.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, I'll tell you one place you're not going.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. She said that during the final days of planning, she became out of touch with reality. She said I was detached. I saw myself going through the motions, but it wasn't me. It was like watching myself on television. And during cross examination, though, she conceded that the bombing. She talked about it at length with her brothers. And she said. But there was a lot of things that were said that I didn't mean. It was to keep him happy and off my back. Her attorney urges the judge, said she's a victim of the terrible men that were around her and urges the judge to give her probation. Probation? Are you out of your fucking mind? Even a judge would say that. Excuse me. From a legal standpoint, you're out of your fucking. Out of your fucking gourd. Goodbye. She said, he said, in reality, the truth we all know from seeing Peggy Barnett pour her heart out on the witness stand is that she did not intend to cause anybody harm. That's all. And also that she. They said she had a hormonal imbalance caused by the last stages of pregnancy that clouded her judgment.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, that pregnancy, man, that pregnancy brain is a motherfucker.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, they usually. What you do is you mail 4 pounds of high explosives to somebody. That's. That's part of it. Yeah. You gotta watch that third trimester. The doctor warns you, you will want to build pretty high powered bombs in the third trimester. Watch out for that. So the judge said, the defendant herself has stated she conspired to kill George Kerr and knew that the bomb she mailed was designed to do just that. You, ma' am, may fuck off. 24 years and three months in prison.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Michelle Kerr, with her face all fucked up, said, she said that, quote, maybe it's sexist, but I never would have imagined it would have been a woman. Never thought about it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It was a little sexist.

[James Petragallo]

She's like, maybe it's sexist. She said she was trying to get people to feel sorry for her. She was an eager and willing participant. She said that Peggy was probably only sorry that George Kerr wasn't killed in the attack. She said, I think she deserves more than 24 years. Obviously my husband is dead and she did it. She should get life. I mean, it's. You know, I don't know how she's, like, the least responsible, considering she made the fucking bomb and, like, had the communication, like she's the central wheel she's the hub of the whole wheel here.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She got everything.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah, it's crazy. Now there's also a guy named Joseph Ryan, and he pled, saying that he had delivered explosives to Peggy and that it was material that went into a bomb. And so he's going to be on trial, too. Craig is going to testify in this trial. And Ryan's lawyer gets Craig Gustafson on the stand and said that Craig had sought to avoid the death penalty and wanted a plea agreement. Worse than anything he said. Didn't you continually tell postal inspectors that you wanted a deal to save yourself? And he said, yes. Yeah. And yeah. Now they said they portray Gus Craig as someone. The defense attorneys try to portray Craig as someone who's just a constant liar, a prodigious liar. And they said that Gustafson told many, many lies to postal inspectors. Craig acknowledged untruths, saying he wanted to save himself and his brother and his sister at first, but then he spilled it later because they're saying from his first interview he gave certain details but didn't really tie him or his family into it. And then went on the run. But then once he came back, he told everything. Mark Bonner, an assistant US Attorney, asked Craig if he had any reason to name people who weren't involved. And Craig said, quote, I ain't dragging nobody into this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Keep it between me and y' all.

[James Petragallo]

Ain't dragging nobody else into this. He has given you, sir, may fuck off. 40 years for Joseph Ryan, which is more than the person who made the bomb, which is a little crazy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So many prison sentences and so much crime.

[James Petragallo]

So much crime. May 7, 1993. Doug who pleads guilty here, right? He is sent, well, yeah, I'm done with this. He is sentenced to you, sir. Hopefully it wasn't by grizzly bears and moose. That's the danger up there. You never know what's gonna gang rape you. You, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison without the possibility of parole, plus 30 years a consecutive. On top of that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holy shit.

[James Petragallo]

Eat lots of dicks, Doug.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gang style.

[James Petragallo]

Gang style. Yeah. So then Cheeli going to court now here, Cheeley, when he first. This is hilarious. He came to court dressed in his prison blues, had a beard and all that kind of shit. Real cocky asshole. Like the picture. He's such a cocky asshole, this guy. He told the magistrate that he wanted to help represent himself. He said, quote, I'm the co counsel. Me, an 18 year old moron who blows shit up. That's. I'm the co counsel. Wow. And the judge said we'll consider that next time and see what happens. So during the trial here, he is convicted, obviously. I mean, I just gave you all. Craig's gonna testify. They get all the affidavits. He's convicted of this plot and he is sentenced to. This is a good one here. You, sir, may fuck off. Two life sentences without the possibility of parole, plus 85 years. Consecutive.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean, it's just a joke at this point.

[James Petragallo]

Yeah. Sir, you're never getting out of prison. Let's just tell him that you are going to die in prison. If you can knot your bed sheet together, go ahead and sling it over the highest thing you can and get ending because it's not going to go good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm going to do a lot of paperwork. I don't even need to tell you the numbers. You're never getting out.

[James Petragallo]

You're never getting out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well, tell your lawyer he could tell you later. It's wasting time.

[James Petragallo]

You're fucked. So 2005, Forensic Files does an episode on this. It's season 10, episode 25. Signed, Sealed and Delivered is the name of it here. And yeah, it's pretty fucking pretty interesting. They talk about the shooting and then at the end says the resulting trials don't end the carnage. No, they don't. June of 2013, Peggy is released from prison.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She's out there.

[James Petragallo]

She's out. Don't know what she's doing. She's out, though. And I believe. I can't find it. But I think Craig should be out by now too. Okay, but everybody else is probably still.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Less than her, right?

[James Petragallo]

He got. Yeah, I think it was like three. She got like three years less than him. So I would hope that if she's out that he's out because he was the one that testified against everybody and cooperated more. So he should probably get out before the lady who tried to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Probably back in.

[James Petragallo]

Probably. Yeah, well, she was all fucked up from everything else. So now Raymond Shealy and Doug, as per federal prison records, Doug is currently incarcerated in the US Penitentiary at Victorville in California. And Raymond is serving his sentence at the US Penitentiary in Tucson.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is that right?

[James Petragallo]

Miserable. You can go down and say hi to him if you feel like. Maybe when we're so warm. Maybe when we're done recording, we'll take a trip on down to Tucson to say, give a Heidi ho to old Raymond.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Miserable place to serve time.

[James Petragallo]

Fuck. Fucking good Lord. It's a miserable place to be wealthy and have a mansion Never mind serving.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Time Miserable place to be wealthy and free.

[James Petragallo]

If you said you can have $20 million but you have to live in Tucson and like stay there all the time. No more than a week out of Tucson. Fuck no. I'd rather make 60 grand a year and live anywhere else on earth. Literally. I'd rather live in fucking Honduras than there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'd probably just use the all that 20 million for air conditioning.

[James Petragallo]

That's what I mean. That's all you're gonna do. Fucking miserable there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Air conditioning fees to repair it.

[James Petragallo]

What a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Buy a second unit to keep. To keep on hand in case this.

[James Petragallo]

One breaks down because it's gonna keeping the temperature on 65. They never go off. You just have a guy on call. He comes in and replaces them every couple of months or so.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Rotate them out, man.

[James Petragallo]

So anyway, there you go. That is Alaska and that is fucking Fern Express. That is a ten pounds of murder in a two pound bag that explodes when you mail it. That's pretty goddamn crazy. If you like that story, please tell everyone about it. Tell the world. Get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars. It helps the show so much and it takes so little time. So please do that. It really helps us also head over to shut upandgivemerder.com get all your merchandise, get your tickets for live shows. Chicago, May 17 at the Riviera, baby.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's gonna be great.

[James Petragallo]

Get your asses in there. It's gonna be awesome stuff. We're very excited for it. And we'll also have. It'll be the first a story that we'll tell for the first time at Chicago too. So that'll be a lot of fun. Get your asses in there and come see us. That's going to be a great time. Shut up and give me murder.com. head over to certainly follow us on social media. Smalltownmurder on Instagram, smalltown pot on Facebook. You definitely, Definitely want Patreon patreon.com CrimeInSports which is the name of our other podcast that you should be listening to. That and your stupid opinions as well. What you do there, anybody? $5 a month or above, you are going to get a catalog of hundreds of bonus episodes to binge immediately upon subscription, then new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder and you get them all, baby.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Absolutely.

[James Petragallo]

This week, what you're going to get for crime and sports, we're going to talk about corny college coaches. They are horny, those college coaches. College coach sex scandals for small town murder. We're going to look into some last meals of death row inmates because the psychology of that is fascinating to me. So we'll check all that out and more. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show. That said, you want to follow us on social media, head over to shutupandgivemerder.com drop down menus take you anywhere you want to go. Keep coming back and seeing us each and every week. And until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Unknown]

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