Birthday Murder Present - Oro Valley, Arizona

Summary

Small Town Murder – “Birthday Murder Present – Oro Valley, Arizona”

Podcast: Small Town Murder
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Episode: "Birthday Murder Present – Oro Valley, Arizona"
Release Date: February 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, James and Jimmy turn their comedic yet thoroughly researched lens onto a horrific murder that took place in Oro Valley, Arizona—a wealthy, rapidly-growing Tucson suburb known for sprawling golf courses, retirees, and anxiety about “outsiders.” They dig into the history and culture of Oro Valley before unraveling the tragic story of Lisa Berry, a young mother murdered in 2008 by her partner, Paul Beam, as she tried to escape an abusive relationship. The show blends small town observations, dark humor, and deep empathy for the victims and their families.

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Setting the Scene: Oro Valley, Arizona

Town Breakdown & Host Banter

• Oro Valley is described as "outside of Tucson; awful, awful country down there. Just terrible. It's unforgiving." (James, 04:12)
• Historically an agricultural community, post-WWII landowners found it more profitable to sell off citrus farms for development.
• Demographics: By 2008, boasted a median household income of ~$92k, median age of nearly 54 (“families that want to live behind a gate,” “very old people that want to ride horses and play golf.”, James, 06:30).
• The hosts riff on Tucson vs. Phoenix college rivalries, local festivals (including a “Fine Arts festival” and “Wangs and Thangs” food truck: “A wang is a dick. You're selling chicken dicks? Is that what you're selling? You can't sell chicken dicks.”, James, 10:56), and Oro Valley’s self-mythology as “the safest community in Arizona.”
• Local review highlight: “Most bigoted, misogynistic, awful privileged place I've ever had the displeasure of living.” (James relaying, 09:46)

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Main Story: The Murder of Lisa Berry

Key Figures

• Lisa Berry: 25-year-old Starbucks manager, mother of two, business student, “lively, energetic, happy,” described by her sister as a “strong Viking woman.” (James, 16:24)
• Paul Beam: 35, produce manager at Bashas’ grocery. Quiet at work, but with a “history of violent or assaultive behavior, alcohol abuse, and theft.” Two felony and eight misdemeanor arrests (James, 20:28).
• The Berry Family (Linda & Mark): Lisa’s supportive parents, move from Delaware to Tucson post-murder to care for their grandchildren.

Timeline

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Lisa & Paul’s Relationship

• They met at work, started as roommates, evolved into a romantic and co-parenting relationship.
• Paul is described as “quiet and distant” (Jimmy, 23:10); Lisa found him unhelpful with childcare.
• Privately, Lisa told her parents she was afraid: “He monitored her actions and threatened to do something to her if she tried to leave...attack her, kill her, take the kids.” (James, 24:15)
• Lisa had spent months planning an escape to Delaware, with a job and housing lined up (“She was laying the groundwork and doing the research," James, 24:36).

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The Crime (August 12, 2008)

• Lisa told her father on August 11 that Paul threatened to kill her if she left.
• The next night, Paul called his own father, not 911, to come to the apartment. When the father arrived, he found Lisa “lying on the floor of the master bedroom, unresponsive and covered in blood.” (James, 30:08)
• Paul was seen trying to flush a blood-soaked grocery bag down the toilet as police arrived.
• Details of the Attack: Lisa was beaten unconscious (possibly with a clothes iron), then strangled to death. Her packed suitcase and car's positioning showed she was in the process of leaving.
• Both children (ages 2 and almost 7) were in the apartment at the time. Jeremy, the older child, heard his mother being attacked ("He could hear her saying, 'get off and leave me alone.'" (James, 37:38)).

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Arrest, Family Devastation, and Legal Fallout

• Paul confessed to the killing, claiming it was a “heat of passion” after an argument (“I snapped and went crazy,” Paul to police, 36:36).
• Lisa’s parents flew to Arizona, unable to immediately gain custody of their grandkids due to interstate CPS bureaucracy. Eventually, they uprooted their lives and moved to Tucson, losing their financial security.
• The children were placed into therapy; Lisa’s daughter cried herself to sleep, asking for her mother.

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Trial(s) and Sentencing

Prosecution and Defense Arguments

• Prosecution: First-degree murder (strangulation “takes effort and takes minutes and sustained compression. You have the opportunity to stop, and he didn't.” James, 44:56)
• Demonstrated prior threats as evidence of premeditation.
• Defense: Manslaughter, "heat of passion" after argument about Lisa leaving with the children. Paul testified, claiming he was provoked to uncontrollable rage.

Notable Quotes from Family in Court

• Mark Berry: “Paul gave him a dead mother for his seventh birthday.” (James quoting, 39:20)
• Mark: “We had to sit across from our daughter's killer, who grinned at us in a senseless delight.” (James quoting, 43:35)
• Suzanne (Lisa’s sister): “He is not a man. He is an animal, and he should be treated as such. This state frowns on euthanasia. So he should be caged until his heart stops.” (Suzanne, 56:49)
• Jeremy (aged 8, testifying with a teddy bear): “My sister is an orphan, he killed my mom and he will probably stay in prison for the rest of his life. … This man deserves to stay in prison for the rest of his life.” (Jeremy, 59:59)

Major Trial Moments

• Jury originally finds Paul guilty of first-degree murder. He is sentenced to life in prison with a possibility of release after 25 years.
• A retrial is ordered when it’s revealed a juror failed to disclose a personal history of domestic violence—potential bias.
• Before the new trial, Paul pleads guilty and is resentenced to 22 years flat (earliest possible release: ~2030).

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Notable, Memorable, and Emotional Moments

• Mark Berry’s devastating line: “Paul gave him a dead mother for his seventh birthday.” (39:20)
• The image of Jeremy testifying, holding a teddy bear, showing the jury a picture of his mother (59:43–60:11).
• The Berry grandparents’ sacrifice: leaving their retirement, selling their home at a loss, moving across the country for their grandchildren (43:00–43:23).

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Observations, Analysis, and Hosts’ Tone

• The hosts use humor to lighten the bleakness (especially poking fun at the area, the “Wangs and Thangs” food truck, and the suspect’s criminal ineptitude), but are deeply empathetic to the Berry family and children.
• They heap scorn on Paul’s feeble legal excuses (“If you kill a kid's mother, you don't care about the kid at all. Period. That’s it.” James, 54:51), and repeatedly highlight the trauma to the children—especially Jeremy’s lost childhood.
• They applaud the Berry grandparents (“those are good grandparents though...They're willing to do anything for their grandkids.” James, 43:23), and the courage shown by Jeremy on the stand.

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Key Timeline (Timestamps)

• Town Breakdown & Oro Valley banter: 04:12–12:01
• Lisa Berry’s backstory & relationship: 13:12–19:59
• History of Paul Beam & abusive dynamics: 19:59–24:23
• Lisa’s plans to leave, parental intervention: 24:23–25:42
• Murder incident & discovery: 30:00–33:14
• Crime scene and aftermath: 33:14–35:42
• Impact on children, family, and “birthday murder present” line: 35:42–39:20
• Legal battles for custody & family upheaval: 40:26–43:23
• Trial and sentencing, first verdict: 44:38–54:12
• Family/victim impact statements: 54:12–56:49
• Jeremy’s testimony: 57:17–60:11
• Retrial, plea deal, final sentence: 65:55–68:14

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Closing Remarks

The episode is a blend of dry humor, town mockery, compassionate victim advocacy, and anger at legal loopholes. The hosts use humor to make the brutality bearable, but never at the expense of empathy for Lisa, her children, or the Berry family. The line “Paul gave him a dead mother for his seventh birthday” and the image of Jeremy testifying holding a teddy bear linger, reminding listeners of both the rippling destruction wrought by domestic violence and the strength required to piece together shattered lives.

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If you’re interested in more cases like this, supporting the show, or attending their live events, the hosts encourage listeners to check out their Patreon (patreon.com/crimeinsports) and follow them on social media.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[James Petregallo]

For everyone who solves crime from their couch, knows more about forensics than their own job, and has trust issues with small town sheriffs. Amazon Music's millions of podcast episodes are calling. Just download the Amazon music app and start listening to your favorite true crime podcasts ad free included with prime. Small Town Murder is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, but potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Hello everybody and welcome back to small town Murder Express. Yay.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And choo choo.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'm Jimmy Wisman.

[James Petregallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today. All aboard the murder train.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Leaving the station. Here we go. We got a crazy one as usual. We're gonna go to Arizona today, which is always fun. We like to make fun of Arizona more than most states because they deserve it. We've earned it. Live there long enough to earn it. So there we go. We'll get into all of that and more. First though, head over to shutup and givememurder.com get your tickets right now for first of all, March 6th in Durham at the Carolina Theater. March 7th in Atlanta at the Tabernacle. Get in there and come see us. We can't wait. Those are gonna be fun shows. They always are. And then also the March 21, you stupid opinion show at standup live in Phoenix. So get into that shutupandgivemerder.com as well as you definitely, definitely want. Patreon. Oh, yeah, where you going? Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything. We put out everything. We're talking as soon as you subscribe. Hundreds of back bonus episodes you've never heard before. New ones every other week. One prime in sports, one small town murder. You get it all.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's crazy.

[James Petregallo]

We don't care. We're giving it away for crime and sports this week. You're gonna get dead cyclists part two, because part one, we didn't have enough dead cyclists. So there's more.

[Jimmy Wisman]

There's so many bodies.

[James Petregallo]

So many bodies on the roads. And then for small town murder, the death of Kurt Cobain. What happened? We'll try to figure it out. You know, 30 years later and without the assistance of any kind of police or investigations or anything like that. We'll look at what other people have come up with and see if we can figure it out on our own or all that and more. Patreon.com CrimeInSports Just like the name of the other show that you should be listening to. In addition to that, you definitely get all the shows we put out. Crime and sports. Your stupid opinion, Small town, murder. All ad free as well. You can't beat it, honestly. Ad free.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's the best deal there is.

[James Petregallo]

And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show also. So that said, I think it's time, everybody. I mean, all right. And I love when people tell us about where they were yelling this and somebody caught them either in their car and then someone's walking by, like walking a dog and then speeds up quickly or something like that. So wherever you are out there, everybody, I think it's time to do. Where are you? At a grocery store right now. You check it out. That's right.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Grab an avocado, chuck it.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. Take that big turkey off the conveyor belt, spike it on the ground, arms to the sky, and let's all shout, Shut it up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. All right. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah, let's go. We're going to Arizona this week. Not too far of a jaunt here. We're going to Oro Valley, Arizona. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just outside of Tucson there. Awful, awful country down there. Just terrible.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's unforgiving.

[James Petregallo]

It's bad. Good.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Way to put it.

[James Petregallo]

Ugly.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Hot.

[James Petregallo]

The people get stupider as you go toward Tucson. Like, I'd love to see. I'd love to see aggregate, like IQ of Phoenix and Tucson. I swear to God, it's 20 points lower in Tucson. I swear. For some reason.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Well, I don't know. They seem to be smarter there, don't they?

[James Petregallo]

Not that I've seen. They live in Tucson. That. Right away.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's not brilliant.

[James Petregallo]

Right away is a dumb move, I gotta say.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Like, right off the bat, artsy bunch.

[James Petregallo]

Artsy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I just love all the. All the wars between Phoenix and Tucson.

[James Petregallo]

What wars?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Like, just being. I don't know, the rivalry between the colleges, obviously.

[James Petregallo]

It's like our wars with Iraq. It's not much wars.

[Jimmy Wisman]

There's just a lot of jokes about this.

[James Petregallo]

A lot of joke. I get what you're saying. So you like how all the trees

[Jimmy Wisman]

lean south, south of Phoenix? Because Tucson sucks.

[James Petregallo]

You like the spirit of Rivalry between the two. Yeah, I think they both suck. That's the fun part. It's just also.

[Jimmy Wisman]

U of A are. Whoever runs it, they're absolute twats. They've tried to kill things at ASU because they want them to be done at U of A. There's like.

[James Petregallo]

Like mascots or.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, no, no, no, no. Like trees. Programs. Oh, programs, yeah. They've killed, like, medical things.

[James Petregallo]

I see what you're saying.

[Jimmy Wisman]

To keep it at U of A. It's just ugly. Well, it's part of why Tempe and the greater metropolitan area hates them.

[James Petregallo]

There's other reasons for everyone. Now, you know. Never cared. Now you know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's just ugly.

[James Petregallo]

This is in southeastern Arizona. It's about 20 minutes outside of Tucson. Would be, like, downtown Tucson. It's about an hour 45 to Phoenix. If you want to get somewhere better. It's about five hours to Grasshopper Junction, Arizona. Our last Arizona episode. Episode 636, Murder in the Blood. And again, I don't even remember where

[Jimmy Wisman]

the fuck that is.

[James Petregallo]

Way up by, like, Vegas up there. All right.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Near Kingman.

[James Petregallo]

Way up there. Yes. This is in Pima county. Area code 520. Population here has spiked like crazy. It's 46,515 at this point.

[Jimmy Wisman]

The fuck is that?

[James Petregallo]

It was, like, in 1990. It had 6,600 people. That's it. Is shot up like crazy. And median household income here. This is a rich area, by the way. Median household income, 92,548. Well above the national average. Median home cost, $476,300. This place is yuppie. Families that want to live behind a gate because they're terrified of everything. And very old people that want to ride horses and play golf, those are the only people that live here. Pretty much, that's it. Median age here, 53.9. We don't usually say that on express, but I had to put that in there because it's so much older than the average here. A little bit of history. After World War II, the Tucson area had a big growth in population. And so Oro Valley got population as well. And property owners that had all the citrus farms out there saw that there was more money in selling land than there was in growing fruit, growing oranges. Yeah. So they started subdividing and selling shit off. And so they got their first development in 1948. Big suburban development. And it's a giant chunk of Arizona.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's a big piece that realized that lemons, limes, oranges and Decorative oranges and grapefruits are not near as lucrative as fucking Trac homes.

[James Petregallo]

Shitty particle board track homes. Those fucking oranges that don't have juice in them, that aren't oranges are the most useless. Whoever put that together, whatever scientists should be drug out in the street and shot.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What they're for, James, is for 13 year old boys to throw them at each other.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, I remember I did that plenty. But besides that they're useless. Cause if they're in your yard, all it is is a garbage tree that you have to go clean up.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Just ammunition and bug food.

[James Petregallo]

A rat tree is what that is. So anyway, that's a little bit of history there. They didn't incorporate until 1974 because they have fought. They didn't want to be a part of Tucson and they wanted thing. Yeah, it was a big mess there,

[Jimmy Wisman]

but they just want to be county.

[James Petregallo]

They just. I don't know what they want. Reviews of this town, a few here. Here is five stars. Oro Valley is a lovely town. The people are all this person sounds 101st of all right away. The people are all very nice and have a great sense of community. It is very safe. The police department is wonderful. Yeah, they're old. Yeah, they're wonderful. They never mess with you and they really have an attitude of serve and protect. We have enjoyed living here for the past eight years. Yeah, that's a retirement person there. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This guy that's jacked that the sheriff department has a fucking Instagram page where ridicule people who speed.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. This is a guy who whenever he sees somebody pulled over he goes yeah, get him. That's the guy. Yeah. And keeps driving. He beeps at the guy and waves. 3 stars. It is a great retirement community. A lot of food and golf courses. Although it's not the best place for teenagers. I would assume not. Jesus. There's not a lot around that's not too far of a drive so you can get there. And then here is one star. Most bigoted, misogynistic, awful privileged place I've ever had the displeasure of living in Oro Valley. Government workers tell you to look it up on Google. Look what up on Google?

[Jimmy Wisman]

What are you talking about?

[James Petregallo]

Did check the website? Did you check the website? No. This is one of those things where they're in the middle of a rage and they put you in like 3/4 into the conversation. You don't know how it started. I called OV water and the obnoxious gal said to look up my question regarding OV Water conservations on Google because she was ignorant of such things. I was absolutely stunned. How is. How is a lady telling you to look something up on Google? Misogynistic. That's what I don't understand. That would be. Or bigoted things to do here. Horseback riding. Shit like that. There's a fine arts festival that just looks like a lot of old women selling each other trinkets. That doesn't look great.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oro Valley Art Festival.

[James Petregallo]

Fine Arts festival. Yeah. They have a juried event for contemporary and traditional art and. Sounds pretty boring. There's also a concert series at the Steam Pump Ranch.

[Jimmy Wisman]

We're right next to Tucson. This should be great.

[James Petregallo]

Should have something. Let's see here. Food trucks on site. What do we have? March 6th. Those dudes. Those dudes will be there. That's the name.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Just wear hey dude shoes.

[James Petregallo]

The food truck that'll be there is Big sexies. Chicken wangs and thangs. A wang is a dick. You're selling chicken dicks? Is that what you're selling? You can't sell chicken dicks.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I hate when these people do this. Wangs and thangs. It's enough.

[James Petregallo]

A wang is a dick. You can't say I'm selling chicken wangs. You're selling fucking poultry cocks. I don't want any. The Mark Miller band will be there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that dark me you think?

[James Petregallo]

It's gotta be. Yeah. Well if they're big. Yeah. So big fat greens. Yeah, they're big. I mean. And obviously it's dark meat. Mark Miller Band. Zenora Z Nora, Hardscrabble Road and Cat Mountain.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I think they could do better.

[James Petregallo]

I think they probably could. That said, let's talk about some murder. What do you say here?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Let's do it.

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Yeah. That all sounds awful. Jesus Christ. They're not selling the stuff.

[Jimmy Wisman]

30 minutes from Tucson and you can't get a decent act.

[James Petregallo]

You can't get an act that played Tucson the night before or something.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Somebody that played the fucking Rialto.

[James Petregallo]

It's right there. Where's Ludacris? He's got to be available. What are we doing here?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Nelly.

[James Petregallo]

Nelly, somebody. One of the Ludicry can take over and do that one. He's got an army. All right, let's do this murder here. Okay. We're going to go back in time a bit here. Not very long. 2008. I mean other than pre Instagram. It's the same exact shit that's. You got a phone in your hand and you're looking up everything on it. So it's the same thing. Now we have to say as of this point in 2008, the town's chamber of Commerce Commerce markets the town as the safest community in Arizona. They're very. This is like basically they might as well just gate it off. This is a gated community. And judging, judging by a lot of the reviews and how much they love the police force, I think it's like Paradise Valley where those. It's an insular community. The cops work for them, keeping the riff raff out, all that bullshit. So I think that's how they're looking at it, quote unquote, riffraff. So I think that's what they try to do. So they're like, if you're old and scared, this is the place to come, you know.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Safest community in Arizona is a fascinating.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I bet there's like middles of the desert that are a lot safer. There was nobody there. Who knows?

[Jimmy Wisman]

There's so many places in Arizona that

[James Petregallo]

are pretty fucking safe, I guess. Violent crime rate ran about eight times lower than the state average here. So that's why statistically like we're in 2008 and the last murder happened in 2006 in this town in November of 2006. So in a year and a half they haven't had a murder so far where we are. And that was a 34 year old man named Scott Brannan found shot to death in his home. And it was still unsolved. So no, they never. Oh my God, they never figured it out. So someone shot his ass and we don't know. Let's talk about some people who were alive in 2008, unlike poor Scott there. Lisa M. Berry. Let's talk about B E R R I e Berry. She's 25 in 2008 and she's getting her shit together is what she's doing. Basically. Her parents are Linda and Mark and they I guess had moved from Delaware several years earlier. Linda had come from Delaware then they ended up moving back to Delaware after they were. It's odd. They moved to Arizona to work and then retired to the East Coast. It's a very strange, very strange thing. I don't get that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's expensive.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, it's an odd mix. So Linda, her mom had spent 26 years as a schoolteacher in the Tucson Unified School District, which means that she must possibly did a terrible job because there are a lot of dumb people there. So you never know. Didn't do it. But I don't think so. I think maybe she was good and the kids were just dumb. And you can't help that. You can't help that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's jeans, James.

[James Petregallo]

Just jeans. Yes. So she was involved in the Girl Scouts. Her mom, both parents are, like, very respected, well known in the Tucson community as nice people and all that. The berries. Now, Lisa, she's had it a little bit interesting because she had a child when she was 18, which is never. It's usually not planned. That's usually not starting my family at 18 in 2008 anyway. Maybe in 1946. But outside of that, probably not. So she has been going to school and working at the same time, working her way through school to try to better herself and get a better position. Currently, in 2008, she is a manager at Starbucks inside of a bash's. Oh, yeah, A bash's, the grocery store. Yeah. I was gonna say, if you don't know bashes, I don't even think it is a grocery store anymore out there, is it? I thought they sold them all.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know if they sold them or not. They still operate.

[James Petregallo]

Okay, good. Yeah, I like bashes. Okay. So, yeah, she's had a child when she's 18. She's also a business student at Pima Community College as well. So she's been going there trying to get her business degree while she's managing a Starbucks. And everybody describes her as very lively, energetic and happy and being a people person, which if you manage a Starbucks, you gotta be. Those are your attributes, I think.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And in 2008, that's like. It's like the real heyday of the prime Starbucks time.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Before everyone started taking pieces out of them. Yeah, that was when they were ruling the world, which was weird. So she's a good problem solver. Everybody said. Her sister Suzanne called her a quote, strong Viking woman, which is a very. That brings up images in your mind, you know what I mean? But she's not.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She wears a horned helmet.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, horned helmet. Goes about 280, you know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

That big wild mustache.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, I think we're all. We're all looking at, like either the Vikings mascot or like at the end of an opera.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I think that's all I'm looking at

[James Petregallo]

at the end of an opera with the horns, you know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

The Vikings, the Minnesota Vikings have really made me not even think about what a Viking looks like. It's just the guy on their helmet.

[James Petregallo]

They just have a wing on the helmet. Or a horn, I should say.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is it.

[James Petregallo]

It is. Huh?

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's not a guy.

[James Petregallo]

No. No, no, but the guy's on the sideline. They have a mascot who looks insane that stands over there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And Hopper from Stranger Things was a Viking in the Santa Claus movie. He did.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, was he?

[Jimmy Wisman]

I see that.

[James Petregallo]

So you're seeing him seeing David Harbour now?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, David Harbour as a Viking is pretty rad.

[James Petregallo]

So she's working on the business degree, managing the Starbucks inside, trying to build some stuff. She's got a son, like I said, who's like 7 years old in 2008. So, I mean, she's 25, got a 7 year old and working her way out of this, so that's good. She also has a boyfriend that she met in 2005 and his name is Paul Beam. B E A M, like a beam of light. He's 35, so he's 10 years older than her. But they're going out. That's fine. He is the produce manager at Bash's.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, that's how you meet him.

[James Petregallo]

Made in heaven here. I mean, he's stacking chicory, she's coming over, you know, he's the manager, bringing him a latte. He's the produce manager.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Third highest paid guy in that store. That guy makes a shitload of money.

[James Petregallo]

What's a shitload of money in a grocery store?

[Jimmy Wisman]

For a grocery store that probably clears 85 grand a year.

[James Petregallo]

That's good money for any store they crush. That's good shit. He's a quiet guy. Everybody says they started out just talking as friends, platonic bullshitting around the store. Because I'm sure a lot of the employees go get Starbucks or she gets cherries, who knows? Whatever, she gets lettuce, I'm not positive. So then it comes up that she has a two bedroom apartment where she lives with her young son. But she can't really afford the two bedroom apartment so she needs a roommate. So he decides. Paul says, I'll take the room, I'll move in. He moves in just as a roommate. Everything's platonic. But while they're living together, you know, if you put any two animals in a cage, it's gonna end up. Things are gonna happen.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Except pandas.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, most of the time in the zoo, you want them to reproduce, just put them in the same cage. There you go.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Nothing except pandas does it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they're lazy. Too lazy to fuck. So they moved in together. This is in an apartment at the 8800 block of North Oracle Road. And Jeremy is the son. He lives with them and his name is well out there. Cause it's In a million newspapers. Otherwise I wouldn't bother saying it. Now his history, he's got some. He's a quiet produce manager, so he seems like he's fine, but there is some history with this guy where he

[Jimmy Wisman]

doesn't seem a five year old single guy moving in with a young girl with her kid.

[James Petregallo]

Well, it doesn't seem like he's just a mild mannered produce manager here. He's got some other issues. A sheet later from the Pima county attorney's office states that he had a history of violent or assaultive behavior. Alcohol abuse and theft, dishonesty. So he's a fraudulent alcoholic fucking abuser. That's not good.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He's a crooked man.

[James Petregallo]

Perfect guy to bring in to your apartment here. But I don't think she knows about any of this at work. He's just known as a steady guy, so I don't think she even knows about this. He has two felony arrests on his record and eight misdemeanor arrests. That's 10 arrests by 35.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's a lot of police intervention.

[James Petregallo]

That is so much, man. We don't know if he was convicted or what happened in those cases, but we just know that. Do you have two felony and eight misdemeanor arrests? No. I don't either. So 2006, they have a daughter together.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yes, they have a daughter here. I won't get into her name because she's still pretty young and she didn't have to testify later or anything like that. So we'll leave her out of it. So they never get married, but they're living together. From a roommate arrangement into a romantic arrangement into a co parenting arrangement here. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is he, is he running the role of like stepfather too?

[James Petregallo]

And being a good assume, he'd have to really. I mean you're in a two bedroom apartment. I don't know how you'd ignore a seven year old and that's your sister.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So according to the Berry family, what they said later, Lisa did not want to marry him. She didn't fully trust him, but she stayed with him because they were living together and they had a baby. But she didn't really trust him and didn't think that, you know, he would be the best candidate for marriage here. At some point here he receives a promotion to be produce manager at a bigger store. Oh, even more fruits.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Marketplace bashes.

[James Petregallo]

Look at that now. Holy shit. So early 2008, they move into a larger apartment in the same complex, I believe. So he said. And he was telling Everybody, this is a real positive step. And he felt like they were doing this together because before that was like her apartment. Now this is their apartment that they can have. Yeah. He told everybody that, you know, their relationship was generally good and, you know, normal, but they had some occasional disputes that weren't anything big, you know, no cheating or anything like that. It was just typical, you know, couple bickering around the house. Things that people disagree about here. Now, there are some issues. Co workers at the bashes, Starbucks here recalled that she was a little bit frustrated with Paul's reluctance to help with childcare. Apparently, he wasn't real into diving into

[Jimmy Wisman]

childcare, like being a dad.

[James Petregallo]

Being a dad. And not only just being a dad, but doing the annoying things that you have to do to be a dad, like picking the kids up from school or daycare when she worked. Late parent shit.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. The diapers, the walks, all the shit.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. They said. Now, her friends at work said that she described him as kind of quiet and distant, and that's kind of the way it is here. He's kind of quiet and distant, and she's kind of more lively and upbeat and that sort of thing here. But none of them suspected any physical violence or anything like that going on.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That should contribute to each other, right?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, compliment, compliment. And that's a. That's a complaint that a lot of new parents have with this. One doesn't do this. I mean, it happens. Yeah, it happens. And some people do slack, so who knows? Now, Lisa's parents here said that she had grown. That Lisa had grown afraid of Paul, which she didn't tell her friends that. Just that he was annoying a little bit. But they said that he monitored her actions and threatened to do something to her if she tried to leave. Attack her, kill her, take the kids, different things. You're not allowed to leave. Basically. Now, during 2008, from what her parents said, basically, she had spent a good six to eight months planning to leave.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. She had all of her ducks in a row. She wants to move to Delaware, where her parents are living now. So that's the plan. Now, that's a tough thing, though, because if you leave now, there's parental shit with him. So you're gonna have to let him take the kid. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

And unsupervised.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely, yeah. If you're leaving the state, as a matter of fact, to leave the state, if there's. You have to agree to that in court to be able to do that. So you can't just take Kids out of state like that. But she wanted to go. And I'm sure she had that lined up because she had been making these plans to move. She. She researched housing. She was getting a job first and all that. She wasn't just showing up with boxes and going, what do I do? She wanted to set in. She wasn't fleeing, you know what I mean? She was planning a move. Her mom, Linda, said she wanted to have a job lined up in her own place. She was laying the groundwork and doing the research. Now her parents said, move here now and just move in with us. Go ahead and move in with us. And she said, no, I'm not doing that. I'm 25 years old and I've been living on my own and I'm not going back.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Regressing life, I've already.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. She said, I want to leave on my own terms and be comfortable and do it the way I want to do it. August 11, 2008. Okay. All I can think of is hot, hot, fucking hot. It's so hot.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Miserable time.

[James Petregallo]

So hot. Tucson. Good God. So Lisa calls her father Mark, in Delaware. And Lisa told her father that Paul had threatened to kill her. So that's a step up. Now we're talking. I don't give a shit about. You want your own apartment, get the fuck out of that house now. Period. No one should be threatening to kill anybody. A direct threat. And Lisa told her father, he said he'll kill me if I leave. We don't know if he found out about her jaunt to Delaware or what the deal is, but that's what it is. So Mark and Linda begin making plans to get her the fuck out of Arizona, away from Paul. Basically, they were gonna help her get out. They said, forget the jobs, forget all this shit, get on a plane, come home, bring the goddamn kids and we'll figure out the rest of it later. So Mark the dad said we were going to get her out as soon as possible. That's what it is. So that's August 11th now. August 12th, 2008 again. Next day, hot, hot, hot at the apartment. This is the 8800 block of North Oracle Road. Yeah, it's about 9pm so still 107 degrees is what that says to me. Miserable. Paul rings up his dad, calls his dad on the phone and asks his father to come to the apartment. Can you come over right now? He's here. Yeah, yeah, come to the apartment right now. Now, I don't know if his dad asked questions and Paul wouldn't Answer them or what? But his dad just drove over. Okay. My father would be like, for what? Why? Yeah, I mean, if you need help, great. But what do you do? I need to bring tools. What's going on? You know what I mean? Paul's dad's aware something's going on here, so. Hey, everybody. Just going to tell you about the safest sponsor that we have to offer here, SimpliSafe.

[Jimmy Wisman]

SimpliSafe.com, s I M, P L I safe dot com.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. We all want peace of mind, don't we? Yeah, we all need that. And for everybody, this should be how you get peace of mind. Knowing that your home and your loved ones are safe. And that is the peace of mind that we get when we use Simplisafe, which is always. Simplisafe is tremendous. We use it in all of our homes, studios, you name it. They've been a sponsor of ours for a long time and they're great and their product is amazing. You'll love it. We trust SimpliSafe, the security system millions of Americans rely on to protect what matters most. And this month we are excited to tell you about an exclusive offer that we can share with you. 50% off a new SimpliSafe system. When you order one today. This is the time, everybody. Don't wait anymore. Do this. Traditional security systems, they take action after someone's already broken in. You've heard the show, that is way too late. They're in the house, you're in trouble. So that's not good. Simplisafe's active guard outdoor protection can help prevent break ins before they happen. They have these cool AI powered cameras backed by live professional monitoring agents. They can monitor, they detect suspicious activity. Let's say someone's creeping and lurking, acting all weird. The agents can talk to them and say, get out of here, I'm calling the cops. Turn on a spotlight, put on a siren, you can do all that stuff and even contact the police before these people even have a chance to get in your home. Simplisafe is the way to go. No long term contracts or cancellation fees. Monitoring plans start affordably at around a dollar a day. 60 day satisfaction guarantee or your money back. Named best home security systems by U.S. news World Reports. Five years in a row ranked number one in customer service among home security providers by both Newsweek and USA Today. So why wait? Protect your home today and enjoy 50% off a new SimpliSafe system with professional monitoring at SimpliSafe.com smaller. That's SimpliSafe.com small S I M P L I safe.com small there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Now back to the show.

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[James Petregallo]

When Paul's dad arrives, he. Paul leads him in and just basically goes, look at this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

There it is.

[James Petregallo]

There's Lisa lying on the floor of the master bedroom, unresponsive.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, no.

[James Petregallo]

And covered in blood.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

So Paul's father, being apparently just a normal human being, calls 911 because Paul called her. She needs help. Yeah, Paul called his dad, not 911, which is insane. Unless his dad's a doctor, you know, or a fucking emt. Who are you calling here?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is he the shift leader at the fire department?

[James Petregallo]

Is he gonna dispatch all the ambulances or what are we doing here? So that's what's going on. Covered in blood. And he said basically that there's a domestic violence incident at my son's apartment. And he says that his son's girlfriend has been injured. That's what he says.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

She is not injured. She is dead. She's dead.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's over already.

[James Petregallo]

She's dead. I mean, it's apparent she's dead. She'll be pronounced dead at the hospital later. But injured is a. You wouldn't look at her and go, oh, she's just injured. You'd go, oh, she's hurt. Yeah, there's a problem here. She's definitely. There's no saving her at this point, as we'll find out. So police arrive. Paul is outside the apartment when police arrive, standing outside. When they arrive. He goes back into the apartment and closes the door.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know what I'm talking about.

[James Petregallo]

They know where they're going. They see him outside. So it's not like, you know, I

[Jimmy Wisman]

don't like those guys.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he didn't have binoculars. And see him from two blocks away. And close it up. He was like, nope, no, thanks. Don't want any. He goes inside like they're Jehovah's Witnesses and turns all the lights out.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay, there's bad news here.

[James Petregallo]

I don't need you. Bad times. So they go knock on the door, obviously. And Paul opens the door and says, everything's okay. You can leave. Bye, and closes it again. It's all good. Everything's fine. They were like, what the fuck?

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, Paul, no.

[James Petregallo]

Then they heard a toilet flush while they were standing outside. So they're like, what is going on in there? Finally, when they get inside, I think dad ended up helping them get in. When they get inside, they found a plastic grocery sack inside the. They describe it in the newspaper as a sack, which is a weird way to put it. It's a bag.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, it's a plastic.

[James Petregallo]

Plastic bag, yeah. Inside, I assume. Yeah, probably a bash's bag. Inside the master bathroom's toilet and the

[Jimmy Wisman]

floor flooded, flushed the bag.

[James Petregallo]

He tried to flush a plastic bag down the toilet, which doesn't work well, no. So apparently it's not a plastic. It's a paper bag. Not a plastic bag. Because they looked in and it looks like that he tried to. Someone tried to wipe the blood in the bathroom down with a paper grocery bag. Very absorbent. A paper grocery bag. And then flush it afterwards while the cops are standing on the porch. By the way, is he all right? I don't think so. He might be. You know what? It's Tucson. He's a fucking moron, that's what it is. Yeah. This is why we make fun of Tucson. I can clean up all the blood with this here plastic. Paper bag. And then it should fit right on down the toilet hole.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You ever seen somebody try to wash a window with a newspaper? Like they say in the old Streak, this shit doesn't even work.

[James Petregallo]

They spit on it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Shit all.

[James Petregallo]

Fucking wipe it with a newspaper.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, it doesn't absorb, man. It's paper.

[James Petregallo]

This is terrible. So there is a brief standoff here. Goes back and forth where he doesn't want to go with the cops. And they're like, oh, you're coming with us. You're coming.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Can't do it.

[James Petregallo]

Obvious here. Now, there is some discrepancy. I believe it's the bathroom floor, but she's in the master bathroom floor. That's how it works technically, in the master bedroom, but more in the bathroom section of it. She's transported to the hospital where she is pronounced dead. And when they do an autopsy, they find that there's bruises and blood that said she had been. First of all, she got strangled to death, but she had been severely beaten beforehand. Her head has been bashed in. She was beaten unconscious. They think she wasn't conscious while she was being strangled, which. Good Christ, I guess if you're gonna die, I guess I'd rather be unconscious. But still, that's horrifying. To be beaten unconscious and Strangled. To strangle an unconscious. They're already unconscious.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right. What's the deal?

[James Petregallo]

There's no resistance, you know what I mean? I don't understand what you'd like. Wouldn't you feel? I don't. I guess I never strangled anybody. So.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I don't know, I guess that's. I mean that's certainly gonna be easier, right?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, gonna be a lot easier. But I would think just takes the

[Jimmy Wisman]

challenge out of it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. On the psyche. It would be hard. You know what I mean? It would be weird.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Unless you really want them not alive.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. That's the only thing. Again, I'm thinking like a sane person who isn't from Tucson and doesn't want to kill someone.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You don't need somebody dead right now.

[James Petregallo]

I don't. Yeah, that's the problem.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not at the moment.

[James Petregallo]

We'll see tomorrow. You never know. Now the evidence that she was about to leave is all over the apartment. On the bed is an open suitcase, half packed. She was in the middle of leaving tonight. And that's the problem. Her car is parked outside, backed in near the stairs. She can carry shit down. I mean it's exactly what you'd do if you were leaving and taking off. She was going now, she was going now. And her mom said her suitcase was on the bed and it looked like it was being packed. Her car was backed in by the stairs. She was leaving. Now 7 year old Jeremy and the 2 year old sister are in the apartment.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh boy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, they were here for this. A two year old, you know, they don't really know what's going on. I mean they can, they know it's not good.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Get a story out of them.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Ever have a 2 year old, 2 year olds don't tell good stories at all?

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, they don't know what to do.

[James Petregallo]

They'll tell you a story, but it makes no sense. It's total shit. That's exactly right. It's garbage. But seven year olds, boy can they tell you. They can take it all in now. They don't know exactly what time the argument began or what exactly was going on. But looks like you can tell by what's happening. She's leaving. He doesn't want her to. That seems to be what's going on now he, by the way, will tell the cops that he snapped and she was going to take the baby and I just snapped. And it was a heat of passion thing. That's what he tells the cops.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Just heat of passion. Just. I snapped and went crazy.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He knows he's fucked. He knows he's in a lot of

[James Petregallo]

trouble and I'm sure his dad is also going, this is not good, brother. You know, son, this is bad.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This is not bad. He's heard some phrases that help a

[James Petregallo]

lot in a court of law. Absolutely. Heat of passion. So later on the state's gonna argue a lot different than that. But seven year old Jeremy was in the next room. And Linda, Lisa's mom, said Jeremy heard his mom fighting for and losing her life. He could hear her saying, get off and leave me alone. So that's gonna haunt that poor kid, you bet. Forever, obviously. And at 7, there's 6. He wasn't even 7 at the time yet. He was going to be 7 in four days, by the way. At 6 years old, it's even more horrifying because there's nothing you can do about it. You can't do about it. If you were 12, you might be able to go grab a lamp and hit the guy over the head with it from behind or something. You might think in your head you could do it. But at 6, you're just totally helpless. That's so scary.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And this just ruined his birthday in four days.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, completely ruined his birthday.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh boy, is he about to have the most fucked birthday.

[James Petregallo]

As we'll talk about the father, Lisa's father has a quote that is just. Man, it is rough. Yeah, I'll talk about it. It's wild. So they think the attack happened or at least concluded in the master bathroom. According to them, he hit her first, then strangled her. And the sequence matters because it's not a single act. Then if you're beating someone, then strangling them, if you lost your mind and just strangled them, that's a different thing. If you beat them first, unconscious, the

[Jimmy Wisman]

threats and focus one place, if it's multiple locations, you had time to think about this.

[James Petregallo]

Absolutely. Now a neighbor told the cops that they saw Paul earlier throw an iron into the trash bin. Like clothes iron into the trash bin. Later on, they wouldn't say whether they think this was what she was beaten with or not, but they took it as evidence. So possibly, yeah, maybe she had an iron in her suitcase and he picked it up and whacked her with it or was sitting there in the bathroom, I'm not sure. But he was arrested. He's charged with one count of first degree murder and bond is set at $750,000. He admits, they had an argument and I snapped. She was gonna take my baby. That's what he said. So he's considered a considerable flight risk. Cause he doesn't have any community ties or anything like that. And court records show that he's failed to appear for at least three court hearings in the past.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh my God. Yeah, because he's gonna rest in daytime. Yep.

[James Petregallo]

So they set his bond pretty high. Four days later is Jeremy's birthday. Mark, Lisa's father said, quote, paul gave him a dead mother for his seventh birthday. Oh, God. Jesus.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Damn it.

[James Petregallo]

Talk about cutting through the bullshit. My Christ. Wow, that is cutting through the bullshit right there, right? Sp. Mark, that is brutal. Paul gave him a dead mother for his seventh birthday. This guy, man. Good for you, Mark. It's true. It's true.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Those words almost kill her again, man. Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Oof. Man. Mark, I get it, dude. That's exactly what you'd say, you piece of shit. That's what you gave him, you fucking mutt. He's just an honest guy. I like him. Now, about one week after the death, Mark and Linda held a press conference in Tucson. They had flown in from Delaware. And they're exhausted and obviously sad and broken up and everything else. And they say that they're trying to get custody of their grandchildren and having a nightmare doing it. Because Mark and Linda lived in Delaware, the children live in Arizona. CPS Child Protective Services wouldn't process an interstate adoption because, you know, kids can't possibly live outside of the state of Arizona and survive. Clearly, who cares?

[Jimmy Wisman]

So what, do they want him to go with his parents? Well, yeah, his dad was there too. I mean, granted he didn't do anything, but. And he did the right thing. But I don't know, what's it matter? Both parents are in a lot of trouble.

[James Petregallo]

Well, and Paul, even though he's charged with murder, still has parental rights to Gaitlin legally.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, but is he capable of exercising that?

[James Petregallo]

That's what's gotta go through the courts. That's the problem. And these people are like, can we just say he's in jail for murder and I can watch the goddamn kid? So that's crazy. So they place Jeremy and Caitlyn temporarily with Mark's sister and brother in law, which the sister came up wherever he came up. So no, no, thank you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Wait, Mark's. That's the parents?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, but they live there, right? Oh, that's right. Not Mark, not Paul. I'm sorry. Yes, Mark. I was like, what are you talking about? Yeah, Mark. Yeah, you're right.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So it's the great grandparents, a great uncle.

[James Petregallo]

It's the great aunt and uncle, basically. So Jeremy's biological father was cooperative and supportive of the grandparents getting custody. Apparently he had no interest or just thought knew that was a better environment. But the daughter, that's a problem because that's, you know, he still has rights. So Linda, Lisa's mother, said to the parents of the children whose lives I've touched, which sounds terrible unless you were a teacher for 26 years. That's the only time that's okay to say that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Parents of anything that I've touched, anything I've touched, don't touch things.

[James Petregallo]

I would like them to get ahold of CPS and let them know the content of my character, that I would be a good person to raise these children. Seems like an ideal person to raise these children. I would imagine. They asked people to write letters to cps. They set up donations through Homicide Survivors, which is a Tucson based victim assistance organization. They had to leave their jobs in Delaware to come to Arizona. Lisa here. I'm sorry. Linda, the mom told reporters about the relationship with Paul that Lisa didn't trust him, she wouldn't marry him. She stayed either out of fear or because she was kind of tied up with the kids and finances and all that kind of thing. She said Jeremy overheard what had happened and it's been very difficult for him. We feel we would like to have both of them together. I don't want them separated. So because of the CPS situation, not allowing interstate adoption, the Berrys move to Tucson.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, Jesus.

[James Petregallo]

Leave their jobs, pack up and leave.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Leave Delaware for Tucson.

[James Petregallo]

Yep, they left. They couldn't sell their house in Delaware at the time because. What year is it?

[Jimmy Wisman]

2008. Yeah, it's fucked.

[James Petregallo]

It's totally fucked. So they're screwed. They drain their savings. They uprooted everything, their retirement and all this type of thing so they could move to Arizona to raise kids, which that's tough all around in retirement.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Those are good grandparents, though. I mean, Jesus, they're willing to do anything for their grandkids. That's awesome. They also had to go to child custody hearings where Paul would be there too.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Mark said the hearings were especially difficult for us because we had to sit across from our daughter's killer, who grinned at us in a senseless delight.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He did what?

[James Petregallo]

Grinned at. Jesus Christ. You know what? I love the way Mark phrases things, though. He gave him a dead mother, grinned at us in senseless delight. Like this guy, he's a wordsmith. I like him.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why would he do that?

[James Petregallo]

I can't imagine why he'd do that, like I'm gonna fucking twist it in.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Did he get bail or is he in?

[James Petregallo]

Oh, no, he's in.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is he? Jail.

[James Petregallo]

He's in jail, yeah. No one's getting him out at the moment here. Meanwhile, the kids are in therapy. The daughter's crying herself to sleep because she doesn't understand where her mother was. She just asked for her mother every day. Where's Mommy? Why can't I see her? I mean, imagine that. That's fucking horrifying. So the trial comes up here, okay? Now the prosecutor is saying it's first degree murder, period. He said strangling someone is not an instantaneous act. As we've gone over in previous episodes,

[Jimmy Wisman]

not easy to do.

[James Petregallo]

Remember the Michigan episode where the prosecutor put a very loudly ticking clock on the jury box and let it go for 4 minutes and 15 seconds and just sat there, sat there and let it tick away and said, you have the decision now. You could stop anything.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Still doing it.

[James Petregallo]

Still doing it. And that's what they're saying. They're saying it takes effort and it takes minutes and sustained compression. You have the opportunity to stop, and he didn't. And under Arizona law, premeditation doesn't require a huge. Doesn't require, like, you to write a map and a thing and a manifesto doesn't require that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It takes some forethought.

[James Petregallo]

It can literally be seconds. The decision can be, I'm going to walk across the room and strangle you. And that's premeditation. That's different in some states. Some states are a little more stingy with the premeditation as far as what it is. But in Arizona, it's. That's literally, if I look at you and decide to kill you, that's a premeditated act then. Which is weird. I think, honestly, you're kind of fucking the definition of premeditation. You might as well not even have it at that point.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean, if it's seconds, then. If it's seconds before the act, that's a bit much.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. To me, premeditated is anything outside of the room that it happened in right now. You know what I mean? Like, if I planned it from the other room and then I went in and did it, that's premeditation. If I went into a room with the intent to kill you, that would be premeditation. But not if we were in a room and I ended up killing you and I didn't intend to when I got in there. To me, that's not premeditation. That's second Degree murder, I would say, but that's just me, who knows. So they said that he did have time to reflect on what was going away, what was going on and all that kind of thing. And, and, but the defense argued that strangling is an inherently reflective act or that's the prosecution and therefore the murder is premeditated. Because you have time to reflect while you're doing it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, you're reflecting the whole time you're doing it.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. And also they present evidence that he beat her before strangling her. Now it's very premeditated. If you beat someone unconscious, even if they were attacking you with a fucking. A sprinkler key. It doesn't matter at that point. That's fine, it's over, they're unconscious.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You change attack weapon, any mode of attack that you switch in the midst of the attack, you certainly had time

[James Petregallo]

to say no, you had time to not do it. Yep. And then there's the evidence of prior threats because Lisa had told her parents that. That Paul had threatened to kill her the day before. So that's now a pattern of violence and controlling and threatening behavior. It's not a snap out of nowhere. The defense has a totally different take on it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What did they say?

[James Petregallo]

They said you should he killed her. There's no doubt about that. That is not under.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, he said that.

[James Petregallo]

There's no dispute there. He certainly killed her. But it should be manslaughter. Why manslaughter? Let's let him. Might as well. Jesus, let's get him a pizza and send him home, why don't we? Jesus, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Jimmy Wisman]

How are they going to say that?

[James Petregallo]

They said heat of passion. Lisa told him she was leaving and taking the two year old daughter. And the heat of passion is obviously a very legal term. It doesn't mean the killing was justified. It just means they were provoked to the point where a reasonable person might lose self control. And the killing happened in that emotional state before the person could cool down. So that would be, that would be. The stereotypical one would be you come home, you find somebody in bed with your wife and you fucking jump on him and beat him to death. That's a heat of passion, not a planned thing. A reasonable person might have snapped and done that. That's the normal, like you know what you'd set up as the standard of that? Probably, I'm not sure. So that's the defense.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What's a reasonable person too? You know what I mean? Cause they got that in there when you Start throwing. Yeah, yeah, right.

[James Petregallo]

Like would. Something you could have snapped about, you know, a regular per. I think that's what it is. That's why they say, but when you beat someone, then strangle them, you lose. That. That's not.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's all gone.

[James Petregallo]

That's not manslaughter. No. Now in this trial here, they said he was so overwhelmed that rage consumed him and his ability to control himself couldn't help it. Okay. He testifies. He has to. The whole point is, I didn't mean to. I didn't want to. So he's gotta testify and try to ply his wares up there on the stand. Good luck, asshole. So he takes the stand and he describes their relationship as it was normal. He had some arguments, but we recently moved to a larger apartment and everything was going good and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He said that on the night of August 12th, Lisa returned home angry that he hadn't made dinner.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Because he said he fixed her car earlier instead and that took longer than he expected and he didn't have time to prepare dinner. That's his thing. And he said the argument escalated. He said she pushed him and punched him in the chest and started packing her belongings from the closet and announced she was leaving with the children. And he said that she said that he would never see his daughter again. And then she called him. Only worth a one night stand. I don't see. I just don't see that happening. Like he just. All of a sudden he turns into a sponge for abuse and he's just. Oh, now she's. I don't know about that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You didn't cook dinner tonight. You've been working on my car all day. I'm leaving. You weren't worth the jizz. You shot at me. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Basically what he's saying is if you flip the script, what a guy would say type of thing, what would make a woman upset if the guy said all this stuff to her. So maybe that's what he's trying to do, a little reverse psychology with the jury. That's all. I can imagine this is, because that seems silly.

[Jimmy Wisman]

She had to have said that before.

[James Petregallo]

Right.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Because you wouldn't put those words into

[James Petregallo]

somebody's mouth if you're trying to get out under a murder charge, you put

[Jimmy Wisman]

any words you can say, anything. That's a real strange quote to say. A woman said, you're worth a.

[James Petregallo]

What's probably something he said to somebody before.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Right?

[James Petregallo]

That's what I'm thinking. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's the women don't talk like that.

[James Petregallo]

That's what I'm saying. That's why it sounds like what a man would say. And I think that's a hard thing to say. Yeah. So he's trying to get the women on the jury to go, oh, that would sound terrible. If someone said that to me, I would hate that. That's what it feels like. He said they physically shoved each other. They fell onto the bed, rolled onto the floor, and then continued into the bath, rolling into the bathroom. You know, like when people fight, they're always rolling distances on the ground. Obviously that's what happens here. He's seen like Heathcliff cartoons and he thinks that's how fight.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's it. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Then a big cloud of dust came and no one could see what was happening in there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

He rolls around with each other.

[James Petregallo]

Pow. And bam. Happened around.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's not how arguments happen. And that's not what women say.

[James Petregallo]

Nope, this sounds very made up. So he said he beat Lisa and strangled her in a moment of what he called profound emotion over fear of losing not only her, but his precious daughter as well, in his mind, obviously because he's killing her mother. So obviously she's very precious to him. Fucking asshole. So he portrayed it as a very spontaneous action, just driven by rage and loss. And he expressed remorse, saying he was saddened that his daughter would grow up without her mother and that he could never forgive himself for this.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, good.

[James Petregallo]

That's good. Well, we don't. Good. Cause we're not either. So I'm gonna go out on a

[Jimmy Wisman]

limp, but I don't think Mark's ever gonna forgive me.

[James Petregallo]

No, I doubt it. I think Mark would beat him to death if he could. I think he'd like to beat him and strangle him probably.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, with a shoe. He wants to do it slow.

[James Petregallo]

I would do the same thing. I gotta. You know, I have a 24 year old daughter. If you kill her, guess what? Better be looking over your shoulder. I mean, that's. I would think anybody with kids would think that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I'd love to beat you to death with her, cat. With her heads. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Perfect. Let's get it on. Well, my daughter wears Doc Martens. Be easier to beat with.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

Take hers and really whack them. Good.

[Jimmy Wisman]

My daughter wears real light volleyball shoes. That'll take a long time.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, Jesus Christ, dude. You'll have a heart attack before you're done with that. You'll fall over dead next to him and he'll be like, I guess I win.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And he'll just be pink.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, he'll be. If he pushes like this in his face, he'll be a little fingerprint.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, I might change colors.

[James Petregallo]

That's it. That's all he's got going on. Like he was in the sun for a while. The defense here on closing arguments argues for the manslaughter or second degree murder. You know, my worst case, he said it was passionate rage and he lost control. That's passion. He's just passionate. Does he tell you he's part Italian? He's just very passionate. That's all it is. It's fine.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So passionate. He strangles before or beats before.

[James Petregallo]

He strangles Passion. Passion oozing from this man. The verdict comes in and he is guilty, obviously of something, but he is guilty of. What do you think they're gonna do?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Did they give him second?

[James Petregallo]

What do you think they're gonna do?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Second degree, Right.

[James Petregallo]

First degree murder. Oh, fuck you.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And oh, because of the double dope.

[James Petregallo]

It's the two attacks. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's the two modes of operation.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And the fact that I think, in my opinion too, that the kids were in the house.

[Jimmy Wisman]

That's extra shitty.

[James Petregallo]

That stank to it right there. That adds some wang to it right there from an earlier era.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, some wangs and thangs.

[James Petregallo]

Wangs and thangs up there.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Some spicy wang that. It's also the daughter that he claims to love so much that she's gonna take away from her. He did this while she's there, while she's present. It deletes all affection that he proclaims to have for her.

[James Petregallo]

If you kill a kid's mother, you don't care about the kid at all.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Not at all.

[James Petregallo]

Period. That's it. Kids need their mothers, especially two year olds. They need mothers, period. That's all. So anyway, the Berry family in sentencing asks the judge for the maximum, which is life without parole. That's what they want. Every member of the family said it. Mark came up, the dad, and he's up there crying his eyes out and saying that it's just been devastating. The kids have been in therapy the whole time. Their lives are in financial ruin because they had to abandon their home and move to Tucson. And they had to sit across from this guy during custody hearings. It's been a fucking nightmare.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They'll be here in fucking August.

[James Petregallo]

In August he acts awful. I had to come here in August. Do you understand how hot it is? He said that the daughter, the two year old still cries in her sleep most nights. And can't understand why she can't be taken to see her mother. And this is where he gave the mic drop quote of Paul gave him a dead mother for his seventh birthday. Which to me, I mean, if you're on the jury, that is crazy. I am listening to that. So Linda also describes a pattern of abuse and control. She was afraid and she was trying to escape to Delaware. And Linda says that he has ruined so many lives, he doesn't deserve another chance to continue the pattern. He made his own daughter an orphan. Please keep him out of decent society.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

Yep. Told the court that she had to retire. They lost all their savings. She said, the whole thing. Her sister Suzanne, Lisa's younger sister here, this is where she called her a strong Viking woman who she said would have fought back if given the chance. So she thinks that he caught her from behind or from the side or something. And then she said about Paul, this is as good as fucking. This is as good as gave him a dead mother. He is not a man. He is an animal, and he should be treated as such. This state frowns on euthanasia. So he should be caged until his heart stops. Wow, she's like a poet.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean, can we just put him at the Humane Society? And the next dog up to be killed, we'll just do him instead.

[James Petregallo]

We'll give him seven days in case someone claims it. But no one claims it. Somebody will dot though he's going down. We'll just bring him in, keep him

[Jimmy Wisman]

in a cage until his heart stops.

[James Petregallo]

Until his heart stops. Then here is the coup de grace here. Jeremy gets on the stand.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, the boy.

[James Petregallo]

The boy. He gets on the stand holding a big stuffed teddy bear for emotional support. Poor kid.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Holy shit.

[James Petregallo]

He wrote his own statement. Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Jimmy Wisman]

How old is he now? Nine?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, about eight and a half. Probably because he just turned seven. It's been 18 months.

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[James Petregallo]

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[James Petregallo]

he stood before a judge. This is the guts on the kid. Number one. To be in the same room with a guy you know killed your mother.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You watched.

[James Petregallo]

Take some fucking clunes right there. Then to be able to go up and talk. There's adults that won't talk in front of groups of people. For a child to be able to go up in that environment that adults are uncomfortable in, even first time, you

[Jimmy Wisman]

do it too, it's bizarre because you just hear your voice in your ears and you hear nothing else. And it's just the most nerve wracking thing to talk in front of people as you're a child.

[James Petregallo]

A child. It's crazy. It's crazy. So he said, you, Honor, I feel mad and sad because of this man. My sister is an orphan, he killed my mom and he will probably stay in prison for the rest of his life. My sister was only two when it happened. This man deserves to stay in prison for the rest of his life. Okay.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Nice job, buddy.

[James Petregallo]

That's not bad. And then he whipped out a picture of Lisa and said, this was my mother.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, my God.

[James Petregallo]

Teddy bear in one hand, picture in the other. Oh, man, you got broken hearts all around, man. That is brutal.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Don't let him listen to Pearl Jam.

[James Petregallo]

No. Jesus Christ. For whatever you do. So Paul gets to speak and he said, I would like to express my extreme regret for my actions. He said that he's so sad about his daughter growing up without a mother. And he plans to use his time in prison wisely. He said, I cannot give back what I have taken, and for that I'm truly sorry. I do not ask for forgiveness because I can't forgive myself. This never should have happened and I accept responsibility for that.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, good.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, terrific. His defense attorney called him a multifaceted Person. Yeah. You know, like, he's like, not a murderer. And he's, like, also a murderer. You know, he's multifaceted.

[Jimmy Wisman]

You know, he's a dad, but also one of the worst ones, but also,

[James Petregallo]

like, terrible because he killed his kids, moms, you know, that kind of thing. It's bad. He said that he's been using his time in custody productively and deserves a chance at parole. So the judge says, you, sir, may fuck off. Life in prison with the possibility of release after 25 years. What, 25 is all he got? Pretty much.

[Jimmy Wisman]

They didn't take into account that he's clearly a habitual offender. It just escalates, obviously, from misdemeanors to felonies to fucking murder.

[James Petregallo]

I don't know what the mitigation is here.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What is that?

[James Petregallo]

I don't know what the mitigation is to be. I know that's not a mitigation because it's not a death penalty case, but I don't understand the mitigation of. Well, I think.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I guess he's got motivation to be a better person because he's got a young girl out there growing up without a father.

[James Petregallo]

But he's been a fuck up.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. He hasn't done anything right.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Other than his knowledge of produce. I don't know what use he is to the world. He doesn't really have much. He also is ordered to pay $81,000 in restitution to the Berry family. And he received 525 days credit or credit served for time served. Credits.

[Jimmy Wisman]

So almost two years credited.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, because that's where he was sitting waiting for court. That same week, though, some good news here. Finally, Mark and Linda finalized the adoption of both children. Great. So that works out very nice. He appeals, wants a new trial.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Why?

[James Petregallo]

Okay. Defense attorney told the court immediately after sentencing, she would file a motion for a new trial, which usually they all say that and it goes nowhere. But she went through the jury selection process, went back and reviewed it, and reviewed all the pretrial questionnaires that each juror had filled out and found something one of the jurors who convicted him had failed to disclose on her jury form that she herself had been both a suspect and a victim of domestic violence on both ends. She had been.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, she's been abused and abusing.

[James Petregallo]

Yes. So this is.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And it's been documented because otherwise they wouldn't know to prove that. Right?

[James Petregallo]

That's the thing. Yeah. So the prosecution's case was built on a pattern of domestic violence control and this and all that kind of thing. So the questionnaire asked direct questions about experience with domestic violence, and the juror did not answer those honestly. Apparently, according to the state. Allegedly, this is. Her name was Diana. You're quite as. And she lied on the form. She answered no or otherwise failed to disclose any personal involvement. When asked about that, she did voluntarily disclose that her uncle was a convicted murderer. Wow.

[Jimmy Wisman]

What's going on with her fam?

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, right. But she didn't reveal her own documented history of violent, intimate relationships with a former boyfriend who's the father of one of her children. Court records and news reports later said that in 2000, the ex boyfriend obtained a restraining order against her. He alleged she hit him and tried to stab him with a knife.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Good Lord.

[James Petregallo]

In 2003, she obtained a restraining order against him, telling the authorities that he pushed her and burned her with a curling iron. Break up, God damn it.

[Jimmy Wisman]

This is a toxic ass relationship.

[James Petregallo]

Holy shit. This is crazy. Like, I get that people can take out restraining orders on each other, but as a society, can we take out restraining orders to keep people away?

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

You're violating the peace and sanctity of the world if your two are together.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And perhaps maybe she's on the right side of the law and maybe this relationship is over now.

[James Petregallo]

That's great.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I might want that person on the jury.

[James Petregallo]

Possibly. But the thing is, you have to know who they are so you can use your challenges. If you don't know the strategy that they have, that's why they give them those questionnaires and they're under oath that they're true.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. Who's to say that she's not the aggressor and has a bunch of restraining orders against her and she didn't disclose it? That's fucked up.

[James Petregallo]

Even if she's the victim, the defense might wanna use that as a strike because they don't want domestic violence victims on a jury for a domestic violence case, which legally makes perfect legal sense. I mean, so anyway, the judge argued. I'm sorry. The defense argued that this information could have led to her being struck, like we said. And it raised questions about potential bias, emotional triggers, or inability to impartially weigh evidence. In a case of this manner, the non disclosure was deemed willful, not an innocent forgetfulness. Because the questions were clear, the topic was prominent in the case, and she had no apparent memory issues.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And she checked no.

[James Petregallo]

She checked no. Or whatever it said on the thing. Allegedly. We don't know what that is exactly. That she checked or said but that's what happened post trial investigation by the defense uncovered police reports and court records of the restraining orders. So he is granted a new trial. Wow. Yep. He remains in custody. They're not letting him out anywhere. But he's still there in April 2010, right after that. But some bad news for him. The parents here, Linda and Mark, file a wrongful death suit against him. Uh oh, not only against him, against his dad, Billy Don Beam. Billy Don Beem. Sounds like a booze, by the way. Yeah. Billy Don Beem's wife, Georgina. Billy Don and Georgina. Wow. The lawsuit alleges that Paul killed her and that Billy dawn failed to render aid to her. When he came over, he didn't even try to help her. So that's why they're seeking punitive and compensatory damages on behalf of the children. October 2010. New trial starts in two weeks. We are almost to new trial time. And he pleads guilty.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Really?

[James Petregallo]

Yep. He says, fuck it, I'm pleading guilty.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. They're gonna get me.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. And I mean, yeah, he admits that he did it. Yeah. So the only reason to go through the new trial is if he thinks he could get it to manslaughter, which you're not getting it to manslaughter.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No, no, no, no, no. There's two acts.

[James Petregallo]

Two acts. And the.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And the. You're not going to get the luck of the jury thing again.

[James Petregallo]

Nope. And Jeremy and his teddy bear are going to be there every fucking time, God damn it. And haunt you, I hope.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah. And he's going to be a year older. He's going to have a much more succinct thought. Oh yeah, you're going to get fucking hammered by Jeremy.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah. Jeremy might try to stab you as he leaves the courtroom by then, but let's hope he does. So he pleads guilty. Now during sentencing here, they all do the same things again. They come up, they sell their stories. The judge sentences him to, you, sir, again, may fuck off. 22 years in prison.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Okay.

[James Petregallo]

Not 25 to life like before. 22 years,

[Jimmy Wisman]

why?

[James Petregallo]

So that means the parole is, you know what I mean? Like, this is just 22 years flat. That's what he's gotta do.

[Jimmy Wisman]

And he's already served for four.

[James Petregallo]

His earliest possible release would be around 20, 30, which is coming up very, very, very fucking soon here. Yeah, that's wild. And like, looking him up at his jail stuff here, it makes it even worse because it's not like he's 5, 6, 140 pounds. He's 6 foot tall, 180 pounds.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, that's a big guy.

[James Petregallo]

He's a decent sized guy that fucking beat a woman to death and strangled her like a. And he's gonna get out. Right now here he's at the Winslow Apache unit, which sounds to me Winslow complex. That sounds awful.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Is that in Winslow, Arizona?

[James Petregallo]

That's in St. John's up there. Oh, yeah. Which we've done. I think that was our first Arizona episode with St. John's it's a bad neighborhood, James. Yeah.

[Jimmy Wisman]

It's not clean.

[James Petregallo]

We know that. It's shitty up there now. I looked at his profile, like his classifications. Yeah. And originally he was low internal risk. And close, I guess, is his custody risk. Then he goes to medium. Medium on the custody risk, but low on the internal list. Internal risk list. So I guess whether he'll. I guess that's whether he's a problem

[Jimmy Wisman]

inside or whether he's trying to get out. Yeah.

[James Petregallo]

And then he is classified as the lowest By August of 2025, the lowest internal risk. Then now he's up to medium again.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Oh, he did some bad shit.

[James Petregallo]

But he's in the minimum custody risk, so I don't know what that means. But I found all of his work assignments here. He did custodial maintenance work. He did something with impact, crime and victims. He did. He did changing offender behavior, which is. It says credentialed staff only, I guess on that one. Then he was a maintenance helper. And then it says one LDS service. So I don't know if he went to Mormon church now or maybe that's. Maybe his job is to hang out at the church. I'm not sure. But either way, that is Arizona, my friend. Oro Valley, Arizona, that was wild stuff. I love the dad and the son's fucking at sentencing.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Dropping hammers off people, man.

[James Petregallo]

They have to be. They have no choice. I mean, they're.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Boy, oh, boy.

[James Petregallo]

They really don't have much of a choice. It's tough.

[Jimmy Wisman]

No. Sucks they're answering the call.

[James Petregallo]

Oh, yeah. No, the fact that those people just uprooted their lives, quit their jobs, liquidated their retirements, left their house unsold and moved here to take care of these two kids. They could have just said, I don't know. I mean, let's let somebody else handle them. Yeah, we'll. We'll give my sister and brother there a few bucks, you know what I mean? And whatever. No, they said we're gonna raise our grandkids, which. Holy shit, that is impressive. Honestly.

[Jimmy Wisman]

I mean, it's all they have left of Lisa. So that's why they're doing it.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, that too. I mean, that's not why they're doing

[Jimmy Wisman]

it, but you know what I mean.

[James Petregallo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that too. So, I mean, Jeremy has gotta be. Christ, he's gotta be 24, 25 now. And the daughter is 20. She's 20. Pushing 20 at this point. So. Shit, man. I mean, the kids are older now and who knows what they feel like or what goes on in their heads or whatever. But our wow hearts go out to you guys out there. That's horrible shit. So there you go, everybody. If you enjoyed that show, not the story because it's horrible, but at least the telling of the story. Get on whatever app you are on. If you're not on Netflix watching, hello Netflix people, and definitely give us five stars. It helps a lot. Helps drive us up charts and gets more people to see the show. So that's fun. Get in there. Definitely also follow us on social media. We are Smalltown Murder on Instagram, smalltownpod on Facebook. You can certainly, certainly head over to shut upandgivememurder.com get your damn tickets to live shows. March 6, Durham, NC. Get your tickets right now. Carolina Theatre, March 7, Atlanta at the Tabernacle. Come out and see us. We're jacked. And then of course, March 21st, come see the your stupid opinions live show in Phoenix.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Gonna be great.

[James Petregallo]

We promise you. That's gonna be an insanely fun, wild good time of a live show. Can't wait. We're gonna have a personal item, so that'll be a lot of fun in a full comedy club. That'll be good.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Just all personal items.

[James Petregallo]

It's good. That would be wild. No, we gotta do some, an Arizona thing. We're gonna. It'll be fun. We're gonna do it all up. We're planning it now, so can't wait for that. Shut up and givememurder.com patreon.com crimeinsports that's where you get everything, all of the bonus material. All you have to be is $5 a month or above. And you get everything we put out that we could possibly give you immediately upon subscription. You're going to get hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before. There's so many. Once you get through all those, we also do every other week you get new ones. You get one crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get it all. And the way we try to do it too is so like the crime and sports bonus episodes for the most part. You don't have to like even crime and sports as a show. You'll like the bonus episodes or weird off subjects and things like that. This week we're gonna talk about dead cyclists. You know, this is just. We did a part one of this of all like the 1800s and into the early 1900s. This is like competitive cycling, not just some dipshit who fell off his bike and into traffic. It's crazy how many people die doing this. It's wild. And then for small town murder, we're gonna get into the death of Kurt Cobain, something we both followed for the last 30 years.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Yeah, a huge part of childhood.

[James Petregallo]

Fuck huge. And it's one of those very curious things. And who knows? Did he kill himself? Did somebody kill him? There's a new investigator on it that says it's definitely murder. And so we'll look into that and we'll look into everything else. There's documentaries I've seen over the years. Yeah, we'll get into all that and more. Patreon.com CrimeInSports Then on top of all of that, you get everything we put out. Crime and sports, your stupid opinion. Small town murder all ad free with your Patreon ad free. Ad free.

[Jimmy Wisman]

Then you're nuts.

[James Petregallo]

We're crazy. We're giving it away. Then at the end of the regular show, there's no time for it here, you're gonna get a shout out too. So Jimmy will fuck your name all up. Don't you worry about that. So that said, patreon.com crimeinsports get in there, Be a part of it. It's a lot of fun. Come to a live show, come see us. Keep coming out and coming back. You want to follow us on social media, that is a pretty easy thing to do. Just head over to shutupandgivememurder.com there's a dropdown menu that shit takes you wherever you need to go. So do that. Keep coming back and seeing us because we will be here. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure by. Small town murder is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things that people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. But potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Hey everybody listening to small town murder out there. Hi. Hello. Good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmy too. And this is an ad, but not an ad for a product. This is an ad for tour dates. Yes. Come see a live show. The 2026 Tour. All the tickets are for sale right now. Starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 6th in Durham. March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets though to your stupid opinions. On 21 March, Salt Lake City sold out. Denver has tickets. Be there on May 2. May 29, Buffalo sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan. May 30, we have. We have September 18, Milwaukee. September 19, Minneapolis. October 3 in Dallas. October 16 in San Jose. October 17 in Sacramento. November 13 in Tarrytown. November 14 in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other STM people. You're gonna meet so many people. You're gonna have fun. Make some new friends like crazy. And make some new friends. Come out and see us. Shut upandgivemerder.com is where you go for those tickets. Get em right now while they're hot.

[Jimmy Wisman]

See you on the road.