Jimmy Whisman (4:19)

Why is that, James?

James Petregallo (4:20)

Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's real easy to do if you do that. You can do it real tasteful, real easy there. So that sounds good. I can't wait to get into the story. For anybody out there that thinks true crime and comedy should never ever go together. I don't know what to tell you. Check it out. You might. We might change your mind. We'll see. Either way, no complaining later. That said, I think it's time to sit back, everybody. Let's all clear the lungs and let's all Shout shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

Jimmy Whisman (4:57)

Okay.

James Petregallo (4:58)

Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We're going to Tennessee this week. Selmer, Tennessee. S E L M E R. Selmer, Tennessee. It's down in southwestern Tennessee about an hour and 45 minutes to Memphis. If you wanted to go all the way to the end of Tennessee. If you want to go the other way, it's about two and a half hours to Nashville. And it's about seven hours and 40 minutes to our last Tennessee episode.

Jimmy Whisman (5:23)

Oh, wow.

James Petregallo (5:24)

That was all the way in the northeastern part of the state. So that's how big Tennessee is.

Jimmy Whisman (5:28)

It's a big, big wide state. People don't realize it's a big fucker.

James Petregallo (5:34)

When you drive through it like on the 40. It's just a hill after hill after hill after hill. The last one we did was Mountain City, Tennessee. That's episode 611, the Facebook Catfish murders, which were. Oh yeah, I remember that episode. That was a lot. This is in McNary county, area code 731. Little bit of history of the town. Apparently the rumor is and what they think is that it was named after Selma, Alabama. Oh. Which makes very little sense because Selma is Selma. And this is S E L M E R. They went with hard R. I don't understand. Well, there you go. That's maybe that's part of it. The town was incorporated in 1901. Now a couple of things in the history, they're gonna be more modern history here. June 16, 2007. A pro modified drag racing car driven by Troy, Troy Warren Critchley lost control while performing a. They were doing like a demonstration thing. He was doing a burnout routine. Look at me, burning out, going in circles. During a car show charity parade on Mulberry Avenue in downtown Selma. His car left the road and struck a bunch of people in the crowd that were attending the parade, which was for the title was America Cars for Kids. That's what this was. Unfortunately for them, they didn't realize they'd be on the hood of these cars pressed up against the windshield. Jesus Christ.

Jimmy Whisman (7:08)

Sending them into the crowd for them.

James Petregallo (7:10)

That's horrible. And this part here is definitely not funny. Six young people were killed. Six.

Jimmy Whisman (7:16)

Oh my God.

James Petregallo (7:17)

Six children were killed. Two died at the scene of the accident and four died later at hospitals. That's horrifying. That's horrible. Imagine you go to a nice downtown small town event to raise some money for charity and your kid is killed by a fucking drag. Racing car.

Jimmy Whisman (7:32)

What did he do? How did.

James Petregallo (7:34)

He was doing burnouts.

Jimmy Whisman (7:36)

Yeah. And it just got loose.

James Petregallo (7:37)

The circle didn't catch at one point and he shot off into the crowd.

Jimmy Whisman (7:41)

Why would you do.

James Petregallo (7:42)

Oh my God.

Jimmy Whisman (7:43)

I see. You see those all the time on TikTok now or Instagram, whatever. They, they. These kids sounds so old.

James Petregallo (7:51)

I tell you what these kids are doing. This wasn't a kid doing this. This was something.

Jimmy Whisman (7:55)

No, this isn't a grown ass adult. But that's what these are. These are adult people with their fucking souped up Dodge Charger and they gotta do burnouts in the. In a. In a city intersection with dipshits standing all. And they run from the car and they've got their phones out.

James Petregallo (8:12)

It's crazy.

Jimmy Whisman (8:13)

And every time there's a video of somebody getting blasted with the ass end of this car. And why do you keep doing this?

James Petregallo (8:19)

And this was like, you know, completely sanctioned by the town and everything. Like, this wasn't like a charity event. Yeah, this is for charity. Lawsuits were filed against the city and the event organizers asking for more than $85,000 or $85 million in damages. On March 4, 2008, the McNary County Grand Jury returned an indictment against Critchley, the driver on six counts of vehicular homicide due to recklessness and 22 counts of reckless aggravated assault. For all the people here.

Jimmy Whisman (8:52)

Yeah, that's the person that's there.

James Petregallo (8:53)

Neither Cars for Kids nor the city of Selma were named in the indictment. Critchley pleaded guilty to 28 charges of reckless assault and was sentenced to 18 months probation. Six kids died. He didn't do a day. That's crazy.

Jimmy Whisman (9:06)

That's crazy.

James Petregallo (9:07)

In 2025, this year, April 3, 2025, an F3 tornado struck the city early in the morning, killing five people and injuring 14 others. The city lost an estimated $10 million in property damage as well.

Jimmy Whisman (9:22)

Oh, my God.

James Petregallo (9:24)

Yeah. The tornado touched down in downtown and Oak Hill neighborhoods, destroying a lot of homes and buildings. Another quick piece of history here. This town, by the way. Okay. It is. Had a sheriff you've heard of? Probably. This is where Sheriff Buford pusser came from. McNary County. Yes. They made a movie in the 70s called Walking Tall starring Joe Don Baker. Then they made a sequel to it called Final Justice. And if you're an MST fan, Mystery Science Theater fan, you will definitely know that one. That's actually Mike Nelson's first episode as the host there when he replaced Joel. And there's the famous line. You guys watch Showdown Baker movies Which is fucking hilarious. But yeah, in 1964, in August, his wife Pauline. He and his wife Pauline were ambushed and she was shot fatally. So he basically. He had scars that he got shot with in his face. And he basically was like trying to hunt people down after that. So it's an interesting thing.

Jimmy Whisman (10:23)

Take it easy, Buford.

James Petregallo (10:24)

And then he died seven years later. And Joe Don Baker immortalized him in a movie. So reviews of this town. Let's see here. Here's five stars. Selmer is a small, quiet town filled with so much history and kind residents. Famous for our Rockabilly Slug Burgers. I don't even want to know. That sounds worse than scrapple and famous Buford Pusser history. There's so much to see and visit in our town. The only change I wish we had was more places for families to do activities.

Jimmy Whisman (10:57)

Those activities.

James Petregallo (10:58)

Yeah, well, let's not have a. Let's not have a Cars for Kids event. That was an activity for families. That's what happened.

Jimmy Whisman (11:05)

Enough activities for a long time.

James Petregallo (11:06)

Yeah, you guys chill. Stay in your houses, why don't you? Well, then you'll get hit by a tornado. I don't know what to tell you. Hide. Get in the basement.

Jimmy Whisman (11:12)

Get the fuck out of there.

James Petregallo (11:13)

I don't know what to tell you. Three stars. I would like to see High speed Internet. Yeah, you'd like to see it.

Jimmy Whisman (11:21)

Wouldn't that be nice?

James Petregallo (11:22)

This isn't a review from 1997 either. This is recent. The farmer's market is delightful. The school system is okay. Bethel Springs school is amazing. I wish there were more chances for technology advancement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd like high school.

Jimmy Whisman (11:39)

Catch up.

James Petregallo (11:40)

Yeah, we'd like to be in the 21st century, please. Thank you. Two stars. Moved here to get out of Podunk. Moved here to get out of Podunk.

Jimmy Whisman (11:50)

They don't even have.

James Petregallo (11:51)

Why? What? Where did you live before?

Jimmy Whisman (11:54)

Where were you?

James Petregallo (11:56)

In a dugout. Like just a dugout cave in the side of a hill. The hell are you talking about? That worked until the hospital closed. Moved here to get out of Podunk. That worked until the hospital closed. Now this town is worse than the much smaller town I moved here from. Yeah, you gotta have a hospital, for Christ's sake. McNary county doesn't have homestead taxes for the elderly to receive free land taxes after a certain age. That's the sentence. I don't know what it means. Doesn't have homestead taxes for the elderly to receive free land taxes after a certain age. Very, very few you can get if you own it.

Jimmy Whisman (12:33)

After a while it stops.

James Petregallo (12:35)

Gotcha. Or I didn't know if that was if you. Homestead tax is a weird way to put it.

Jimmy Whisman (12:40)

Yeah, I don't like that one.

James Petregallo (12:41)

That's a different.

Jimmy Whisman (12:42)

That creeps me out.

James Petregallo (12:43)

Well, it's like it's a different thing than just property tax. I don't get whatever. Very few job opportunities has a very retirement town feel. But drugs here are a huge all caps problem in this area. Huge problem. If I hadn't bought a house here and had children, I'd pull up stakes and leave in a heartbeat. But I'm gonna, since I have kids, I'm gonna leave them here. In a town where drugs are a huge problem and there's no hospital.

Jimmy Whisman (13:07)

Yeah, if you leave, you can take your kids with you.

James Petregallo (13:10)

He's like, I gotta leave them behind, man. It's too rough. I'm gonna keep them here and protect them.

Jimmy Whisman (13:14)

Holy shit.

James Petregallo (13:15)

People in this town, 4421, it's a small town. Small town kind of in the middle of nowhere by itself. Men and women break down. Women are 50.1% of the population. So just over median age here, 37, which is just below the national average. It's about 50, 50 married, which is normal in the country. More people are single with children. Here it's about 24%. The rest of the country, it's about 10%. So interesting there now the race in this town, 89.5% white, 3.4% black, 0.0% Asian, 5.8% Hispanic. Religion in this town, 54.3% religious. So above the national average by a few points here. And by far and away the number one. And really looking at all the numbers, the only religion in the town is Baptist. It is 35% Baptist and it is like 0.0% Episcopalian, Lutheran, Mormon, 0.6% Catholic. It's like two people.

Jimmy Whisman (14:17)

I just found out how dominant this religion is in the.

James Petregallo (14:22)

Every time we've done this show. Yeah, the Baptists are, as we know, the Catholics of the South.

Jimmy Whisman (14:26)

Yeah, that's right.

James Petregallo (14:27)

Ubiquitous. 0.0% Jewish. Unemployment is a little bit above the national average. Slightly high. Median household income here is low. It's less than half the national average. The rest of the country, it's about 69,000. Here it is 32,704 household. That's rough. Now cost of living, maybe it's dirt cheap. Let's find out. Cost of living is 100. In the rest of the country, that's average and par whatever. Here it's 73. So that's low. And the housing is the lowest thing by far. Median home cost here, $131,200.

Jimmy Whisman (15:03)

Not bad.

James Petregallo (15:03)

1992 prices. Yeah, 1992 prices. Well, I mean if you make 32 grand a year, you can afford $131,000 house. That's about right.

Jimmy Whisman (15:14)

Barely.

James Petregallo (15:15)

I mean, I mean that's, you know, at least it's not a half a million, you know, that's pretty good. And maybe we'll find some gems here as we look at the Selmer Tennessee real estate report. Average two bedroom rental here goes for $760 a month, which is well below them over 1200 in the rest of the country. House number one is a hovel. Not going to lie. There it is. Yeah, it's all the paint is peeling off the outside. The inside is somehow worse. Look at this.

Jimmy Whisman (15:54)

Rustic.

James Petregallo (15:54)

Wild. You'd call that rustic? I would call that living in the woods, basically. Yeah.

Jimmy Whisman (16:02)

It's distressed all right.

James Petregallo (16:03)

It's awfully distressed. It's a two bedroom, one bath, 1240 square foot house on a 0.34 acre lot. It's built in 1944 and hey, doesn't look like it's been touched since, so that's nice. Hasn't been messed with at all. This house is 29,900 bucks.

Jimmy Whisman (16:24)

Very affordable. It's on sale.

James Petregallo (16:26)

Well, the price, it recently had a price cut of $15,000. So 40%. They took a third of the house off. Basically just 45,000. Now it's 30,000. That is crazy. It says Charming downtown. Opportunity awaits. The word opportunity is a red flag. In a real estate listing that means shithole.

Jimmy Whisman (16:47)

And charming is oftentimes a red flag.

James Petregallo (16:50)

I mean small. Yeah, yeah, an old small. And old is charming.

Jimmy Whisman (16:54)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (16:54)

Opportunity means shithole that you need to.

Jimmy Whisman (16:58)

Rebuild back to an earlier time centuries ago.

James Petregallo (17:02)

God. House number two. Three bedroom, two bath. This is kind of your typical little suburban. Nice little 1,000, 1096 square feet. So not a big house.

Jimmy Whisman (17:12)

Small.

James Petregallo (17:13)

Pretty small. It's on one acre total. They're built in 2004. This is 1069 1. Or I'm sorry, $169,900. This is just small. It just had a price cut of $15,000 as well.

Jimmy Whisman (17:29)

Jeez. And then whole town's on sale.

James Petregallo (17:31)

Every, every real estate listing in the country that I look at for this show. Everyone has a price cut. Everything's on sale. And then finally, here's this one. 3 bedroom, 4 bath, T bowl for all your B holes here, each and every B hole. 4,336 square feet, big yard, big fountain out front.

Jimmy Whisman (17:49)

Yeah, I love the yellow light at night like that. That warm, warm light color. It's such a great color.

James Petregallo (17:56)

This is on 1.63 acres built in 1961. $449,000 and just went on the market. So not produced yet. Things to do here. All right, let's get into it. The Rockabilly Highway Revival Festival. Yeah, yeah, here it is. The Rockabilly Highway Revival Festival is an annual event in Selmer, Tennessee. It features rockabilly music from old and new artists alike. Yeah, Hot rod show the music, motorcycles, hot rods and great food are a perfect way to kick off the summer. Dress in your best rockabilly. Yeah, yeah. Look like one member of the Stray Cats if you possibly can. So there's live music, a pinup contest. Yeah, that's interesting. Vendors, all that garbage. A McNary County Music hall of Fame induction.

Jimmy Whisman (18:51)

Oh, boy.

James Petregallo (18:51)

And then just people from this county. Buford Pusser is in it. June 1st is the Miss Rockabilly Highway Revival at the some little theater. So you can pick Ms. Rockabilly. Yeah, they have, let's see, BoJack and Lloyd. BoJack and Lloyd is a band playing.

Jimmy Whisman (19:15)

BoJack and Lloyd.

James Petregallo (19:16)

BoJack is one guy and Lloyd's a separate guy, not three guys. I was trying to cruise in at the Wilson Sweet Treats Bakery and Diner. Okay, that's not a band. I thought that was a band. I was like, that's a lot. That's a wordy fucking band name. MC Carl Perkins will be at the car show. Then they'll have the hall of Fame induction. Then the Rooster Run Trio's gonna play at the coveted 11:30am spot that all the bands are fighting for. And then Dale Rushing and the Rust Bucket Roadies will be playing.

Jimmy Whisman (19:46)

Yep.

James Petregallo (19:48)

At one o'. Clock. And then there is the McNary Fried Pie Festival, which, no description needed. There's pies and they're fried. I'm in. Let's do it. Then there's the McNary County Harvest Festival, which is like a fall thing. Come pick out the perfect pumpkin, savor some great food, or shop for unique handmade items. Shop for crap that some lady put on a table and buy a pumpkin is what it is.

Jimmy Whisman (20:18)

This town is 20 years behind the country.

James Petregallo (20:20)

Homemade earrings and pumpkins is what that is. Yeah, I would say so. They don't have high speed Internet, for Christ's sake. It seems a little behind.

Jimmy Whisman (20:28)

And they're still doing Rockavilly shit. That was 2004.

James Petregallo (20:31)

Jesus. That was 2004, 1981, 1954.

Jimmy Whisman (20:36)

Every 20 years.

James Petregallo (20:37)

Yeah. Property crime in this town is high. Like almost 50% above average high. Real high. What is going on? 4400 people. What are they doing in this town? Must be a drug thing. And then violent crime, Murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is almost double the national average. Wow. What are you people doing in this? There's 4400 people. Get along.

Jimmy Whisman (20:59)

This is a dangerous place to be.

James Petregallo (21:01)

That's why. Now I see why that guy wanted to leave. For God's sake.

Jimmy Whisman (21:04)

But he can't leave his kids.

James Petregallo (21:06)

Yeah. Leave them behind. I mean, I figured I'd leave him some food out like a cat, you know?

Jimmy Whisman (21:10)

I can't believe he said that.

James Petregallo (21:12)

Someone could put some more food down every three, four days, maybe see what goes on. That said, let's talk about a murder. Okay, let's do this. Let's talk about a man first here. Let's talk about a young man at the time. Let's talk about Matthew Brian Winkler. Just like Henry. Henry's kid. Matthew Brian Winkler. He's born November 21, 1974. He's born down in Texas, but he doesn't grow up in where he's born at all. No. His father is a preacher and goes from place to place as preachers do. Preachers are like morning radio guys. Like, one day they're in Tampa, and then the next day they're in Baton Rouge. And then, oh, shit, here I am in St. Paul. You know what I'm saying? Oh, there we are in Bremington, Washington.

Jimmy Whisman (22:01)

It's like truckers, for Christ's sake. Slow truckers.

James Petregallo (22:04)

Yeah, well, truckers go home at the end.

Jimmy Whisman (22:07)

It would be like set up a new house in.

James Petregallo (22:09)

Fucking enroll their kids in a new school and everything. Imagine if a trucker did that every time he dropped a load off. All right, kids, into the school. Let's go.

Jimmy Whisman (22:16)

Yeah. You live in Vegas this day.

James Petregallo (22:19)

That's it. That's kind of what it is. His grandfather, Wendell Winkler, was an evangelist. Preached for over 50 years all across the Southeast. He's a real. This is. His family is some real fire and brimstone. Oh, you're going to hell in the world. And you know, they're this short of whipping a snake out. Like they're that fucking close to getting a rattler out of a. Out of a bag here. So his father, Dan was the. His grandfather was Wendell, his father here. Matthew's Father Dan was the Church of Christ minister and adjunct professor and his mother was a teacher as well. So it's a family business, basically. He has two older brothers, Dan Jr. And Jacob as well. The family moved constantly, all the time. They're always on the move. Dad would go from one church to another church and Matthew would be in three, four different schools in a year. I mean, just wherever there was work, that's where they went. But he's. Which makes him good at transitioning into different places. I went to a ton of different schools. That's where I got humor.

Jimmy Whisman (23:32)

Figure out how to get comfortable.

James Petregallo (23:33)

That's it. Yeah, I was like, that's where you get humor. And he's an athletic kid, he's popular, he's handsome at the time. So he makes friends easy. And if you're like a nine year old boy, a ten year old boy and you go to a new school, if you go outside and you play kickball and you're half decent at it, you have a bunch of new friends now you got friends, they don't care, you know what I mean? Nobody everywhere. Hey, look at you. You're a good guy to play with now. Excellent. In high school again, he's a great athlete. He plays multiple sports. He graduated from Austin High School in Decatur, Alabama. Of course, where you'd expect Austin High School to be. This was in 1993, he graduates. He from the start knows where he's going and that's into the ministry.

Jimmy Whisman (24:20)

All right.

James Petregallo (24:20)

That's what he is doing, you know. And the family is of course pushing him into it also. But he seems thrilled to go along with it. Here he ends up going to Freed Hardiman University in Henderson, Tennessee, which is a small 2000 student Christian college.

Jimmy Whisman (24:39)

Nice. Where's that in Tennessee?

James Petregallo (24:40)

Henderson, Tennessee. Smaller than my high school. I mean.

Jimmy Whisman (24:43)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (24:44)

You know. Yeah. So that's where they go. And this is a Church of christ town. Like 90% of the town is Church of Christ. Very strict. This is a. They're real strict, these people. You know, they go to. Some of these people go to church every day.

Jimmy Whisman (25:01)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (25:02)

And in the school, midnight curfew, strict rules at this school. Midnight curfew, you had to go to chapel every day. Oh, every day. And dorms are segregated by gender. So that's old school. That's like what they used to do, you know. The only time the opposite sexes were allowed to visit each other's dorms beyond going to the lobby to go up into the rooms and everything was Halloween. Why then it's so weird. I don't know. It's strange that this Bible college would be so into Halloween too, where it's like, oh, we let some rules slide for Halloween. You know, we usually say dress modestly. Now we're into slutty nurses. Anybody who's dressing up as that, just.

Jimmy Whisman (25:43)

A weird Satan and.

James Petregallo (25:48)

Witches and devils. Yeah, it's strange. Now Matthew majors in Bible study and he is going to be a minister. So he is at college at Freed Hardiman University. He's a handsome guy, six foot one, athletic, very good looking. The girls like him. And he's a charismatic preacher kind of guy. So you can pull people in with your energy like that. And he does. He meets a young lady who he pulls right into his aura pretty quickly. Here he meets a young lady named Mary Carol Freeman.

Jimmy Whisman (26:22)

And her name's Mary Mary.

James Petregallo (26:25)

It's all biblical, man. Mary Carol Freeman. And that's with an A. Freeman, free man. She's born December 30, 1973, about a year older than him. She had just transferred from David Lipscomb University.

Jimmy Whisman (26:39)

Yeah, where's that?

James Petregallo (26:40)

David Lipscomb. Who knows where? We'll find out where she studies elementary education.

Jimmy Whisman (26:45)

Oh, you study that?

James Petregallo (26:47)

Yeah, yeah, you got to get into that for a teaching degree. She's born in Knoxville. Her father's name is Clark, her mother's name is Mary as well. So when she's a kid she goes by Carol to differentiate herself from her mom. And then she'll. That's her middle. But then later on she'll go by Mary when she's an adult and goes to college and everything. So Mary is her mother, She's a teacher, very devout Christian, very strict. Her father is a deacon at the Laurel Church of Christ also, and he's also a real estate guy. So if you could possibly be more full of shit than being a real estate selling fucking preacher as I don't even know how you could possibly. Yeah, you couldn't. It'd be impossible. What else could you do? I mean, sell crypto. Like what else is there? I don't know what else mine.

Jimmy Whisman (27:43)

Crypto.

James Petregallo (27:44)

I don't know. That's what I mean. Or whatever guys are doing and they get in trouble for. Yeah, whatever Sam Bankman Fried was doing, is that.

Jimmy Whisman (27:51)

Yeah, whoever he ruined.

James Petregallo (27:53)

Yeah, I read his book. I read a book about him. I know what he did, but I don't know what other people are doing. So it's a very conservative Christian household. Very much, you know, in terms of modesty and, you know, that kind of thing. And you know, parents tell you what to do when you do it. It's very old school. Hey everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you how to get the best holiday gift of all time. Aura frames auraframes.com oh, you need this. What'd you get people last year for Christmas? Did you screw up? You probably messed up. You got your mom something she didn't want. You got your grandma something she didn't want. You screwed up. You got your aunt something. You know. Make it better this year. Redeem yourself by getting aura frames for people this year. This they will love you. They'll forget every lousy gift you've gotten them in the last five years. You can wipe the slate clean with an aura frame. They're so good. I'm telling you. I get everybody this for Christmas because everyone loves them. It's prominently displayed in everybody's kitchen. And you'll end up sitting around talking about memories while you walk. It's really cool. While the pictures go, it's great. You have unlimited free photos and video you can put on there. You just download the Aura app and connect to wifi. You're all set. You can add a message before it arrives. You can upload photos and videos straight from your phone all year long. Comes in an awesome gift box. It's great. It's featured in 495 gift guides during 2024 alone. It's the best gift selected three times as one of Oprah's favorite things. The number one digital picture frame by Wirecutter, the Strategist, Wired and PC Magazine. Do I have to go on? It's awesome. It's just awesome. The photos look great. They're really high quality. It's private. It's so good. Get yourself an orb. Get somebody something good this year. So don't wait. Win the holidays this year with aura frames. For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Smalltown Murder at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code small Town Murder. This exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year. So order now before it ends. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

Jimmy Whisman (30:15)

Now back to the show.

James Petregallo (30:18)

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Jimmy Whisman (32:16)

Now back to the show.

James Petregallo (32:19)

Mary has a younger sister that's born very premature and has I have heard, I've seen from many different sources different things that she was born with. So I'm not sure what it is. I've seen everything from cerebral palsy. She developed spinal meningitis after a while, had seizures, epilepsy. Not in good shape, this kid. They tried everything. They went to specialists and experimental therapies and prayer groups and everything. And nothing helps the kid obviously here now. She was also a quadriplegic. Patricia, her younger sister, she had, apparently when Mary's 13 years old, or this is the other thing. We don't know if this happened when Mary was 8 or 13. We don't know. We don't know if Patricia was 8 or Mary was 8 when this happened, but I think it was when Mary was 13 and Patricia was 8. If I had to pin it down here. Apparently Mary. Patricia was taking a bath. Mary was helping with the bath. She stepped away for a minute. And the girl had a seizure in the bathtub.

Jimmy Whisman (33:26)

Oh, my God.

James Petregallo (33:27)

And this was horrible. She went to get a towel and came back. Epileptic seizure. And Patricia, they find her under the water and they try to resuscitate her and everything else. And the poor kid dies.

Jimmy Whisman (33:41)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (33:43)

So imagine how Mary feels now.

Jimmy Whisman (33:44)

Can't imagine.

James Petregallo (33:46)

Indescribably, unconsolably guilty. I mean, just absolutely feels awful about herself. She goes to school, blames herself. She's clearly having some distress in school. So the teachers, even back then, if they see you in the early 70s and send you to the school psychologist, that means something's really wrong. Because back then nobody gave a shit. So she sent to the school psychologist, they call the parents just to say, hey, we're talking to the kid. You know, all that, and dad freaks out. You do not tell anybody outside the family this stuff. He said these things are discussed only within the family. He was mad at Mary for going to the school psychologist and mad at her for being a human being. That is sad that her sister died and she feels guilty for it. So there's no therapy, there's no counseling. There's nothing like that. It's just, it's fine, get over it type of deal. It's tough after that. The Freeman family adopts five children from the same family. Two boys and three girls. It's apparently a family. They couldn't keep up with the kids, and it was a dysfunctional deal. And they adopt all of them, and Mary becomes basically their de facto mom. She is taking care of these five kids, essentially. So that's tough. Now, Mary in school, she does a lot of extracurricular activities here. She's in Spanish clubs. She's in religion society things. She does tennis. She does Future Teachers of America. She's in the choir. She keeps busy. Which sounds to me like I don't want to go home and take care of these five kids. I'm going to get involved in every activity I can. Yeah. Whenever I see a kid with a million things, I'm like a just one of those achiever kids. Or baby doesn't like being home, hates it. Or both. Achiever kid who doesn't want to be home. One of the two.

Jimmy Whisman (35:40)

There's that, too, yeah.

James Petregallo (35:41)

So she Graduates in 1992 from South Doyle High School, which was part of Knoxville's school system there. She spent that year, the next year, at Nashville's David Lipscomb University, like we said, which is a flagship college for Churches of Christ believers. So this is a very Christian church put up by the churches endorsing it. Then the next year transferred to Freed Hardiman University, which is another Church of Christ affiliate that's in Henderson, Tennessee, which is 20 miles north of Selmer. And that's where she meets Matt. Now, a friend of hers who knew her at the time said life was good there at the college. She said it was a lot of fun. This woman, Elizabeth gentlemen, she transferred to the school in 94, same year as Mary, and they went through orientation together and remained friends throughout the whole year. She said that she recalled Mary as a tiny woman. She's small. She's 5 1. She's small, gentle. Said she was a nice girl. She was quiet. She was unassuming. She had a pretty smile on her face. She was easy to get along with. I sat next to her in Bible class, and she always had a good attitude. She was willing to socialize, and she could be funny. She just had a sweet spirit about her. I can't say anything bad about her. So that's Mary in college, kind of a sweet, go with the program kind of kid.

Jimmy Whisman (37:04)

Sure.

James Petregallo (37:05)

Which from her background, that seems about right.

Jimmy Whisman (37:07)

And she's got a little bit of trauma.

James Petregallo (37:09)

Yes. Oh, absolutely. That'll scar you to have that.

Jimmy Whisman (37:14)

Fuck, yeah.

James Petregallo (37:14)

I couldn't imagine feeling responsible for killing my sibling, you know, not killing her. She didn't kill him. But as a kid, you'd feel responsible for that. You don't know.

Jimmy Whisman (37:23)

She couldn't. She can't do anything about it. It's just there now.

James Petregallo (37:27)

And as a kid, too, you can't process or even. You just can't synthesize in your brain all of these medical things. And maybe that's what did it, and this triggered that. It's not my fault. You just think I'm watching her. I walk away, she's dead. My fault, period.

Jimmy Whisman (37:41)

There's a dead child. Right?

James Petregallo (37:42)

End of story. Now, here is I'm going to read from an Ann Rule book. There's one called Smoke and Mirrors and something else. I'll read the whole title later on, but Ann Rule describes Mary. Mary Was both pretty and plain, if such a thing is possible. At 5ft 1, she was a full foot shorter than Matthew. And she weighed 150 pounds, although no one would have guessed that she was that heavy. She carried it well with good posture, despite her full bosom. She's got a rack is what they're saying here.

Jimmy Whisman (38:15)

She stood tall with giant boobs.

James Petregallo (38:16)

And when you see pictures of her, that is the best way to describe her. Yeah, she's. Yeah, she's a little bit. You know, she's not real thin, but she definitely doesn't look heavy or anything like that. She carries it very well. She's got kind of a. Kind of a fullish face that's like youthful, you know what I mean? So that's kind of what she looks like. So they said she or Ann Rule said she had dark brown hair cut in a short bob that wasn't particularly flattering to her round face. Her high, rounded forehead gave her a resemblance to actress Winona Ryder and Christina Ricci. Her skin was lovely. She even had features. And she even had features. That's an odd line. And she was very pretty when she smiled. She didn't wear much makeup, which was to be expected of this type of kid. None of them were all gussied up, you know what I mean? That was. Forget about it, man. That's a. You're a painted lady, aren't you? You can't do that. They said her preference in clothing was for something tailored rather than ruffled. Mary dressed in solid colors and often wore black and white. So that's Roman rule. Now, Mary described at the time talking about meeting Matt and said, we were friends first and our friendship furthered. And then we began dating. It was fantastic. We just clicked, which. I mean, similar interests, similar backgrounds, both their dads, preachers. And if sometimes girls look for somebody like their dad, here's a guy who's gonna be a preacher. There you go. Just like him. So they date for about three months before Matthew proposes.

Jimmy Whisman (39:49)

Three months?

James Petregallo (39:50)

Three months, 90 days.

Jimmy Whisman (39:52)

And he's in.

James Petregallo (39:52)

Called a long courting in the Church of Christ community. I think that would be considered well beyond what he needed to do for this group, though. Yeah, you meet a girl, you marry her, period. That's it. Stay together forever, have kids and shut the fuck up. That's kind of how it works. So three months they're in, which seems like a little. Seems a little short for that.

Jimmy Whisman (40:14)

Bit fast.

James Petregallo (40:15)

Bit fast for that. Young Mary at the campus was a member of the Evangelism Forum and she was active in the Phi Kappa Alpha, which was one of six campus social clubs. So she's very active. She likes to talk and move and do things. This isn't a sorority or a fraternity, by the way. It's just a social club. No. Now, the lady, the Elizabeth gentlewoman who talking about Mary in high school, said she also knew Matt and said that he was always wearing an infectious smile. She said, I can't say anything bad about him either. He loved life, loved people. They were just a good Christian couple.

Jimmy Whisman (40:55)

Yes, they were.

James Petregallo (40:56)

There you go. April 1996 is their wedding day. They get married in Mary's family backyard in Knoxville. Very nice, very nice. Clark Freeman, her dad, officiates, of course. Mary's 22, Matt's 21. Very advisable. Then they go back to college, they go back to Freed Hardiman. Now, Obviously, for a 22 year old and a 21 year old, they've never lived with anybody before. They've never lived with each other. This is all brand new. This is an adventure here. Now at some point, Mary sees the real part of Matt. What is that if you've barely known someone, if you dated someone for three months and then you got married, you don't have a full picture of them yet. You've never lived with them, you've never traveled with them.

Jimmy Whisman (41:50)

Sure.

James Petregallo (41:50)

You don't know what will happen when a flight gets delayed by two hours. Will they punch out the gate agent or will they say, all right, let's go to the Chili's and fucking get something that's important, you know what I mean? So they've never had any of that before. And after a minute, she sees kind of a different person. She said at one point, quote, I just remember some point just being shocked at the yelling, at the. Just, this is a different person. That's what she says. She said he had a temper and of a bad temper. She says that her friends too, that Mary's father gave her a desk. It was a desk that belonged to somebody else in the family. It's kind of a family heirloom. And it wouldn't fit in their apartment storage unit. They tried to put it in the unit and they couldn't fit it in there. So Matthew got so frustrated, he just destroyed it with his bare hands. Just broke it up into pieces.

Jimmy Whisman (42:42)

Just broke it.

James Petregallo (42:43)

Just destroyed the fucking thing. Had a complete freak out. Mary said, I remember being so embarrassed and all I cared about was that nobody was looking outside their apartment at him, freaking out, taking the Lord's name in Vain over a fucking one of those roll top desks. So real weird. Also, the couple's super broke. Matthew has to drop out of college and take a construction job.

Jimmy Whisman (43:07)

Okay.

James Petregallo (43:08)

He hates it, as everyone does. Go to a construction site, go around and see if it's a real happy place to be. It's not.

Jimmy Whisman (43:18)

See what the attitude is around there.

James Petregallo (43:19)

Not great, put it that way. Everyone's. It's the most cynical environment that's ever existed. Is there more than a comedy green room even, which is saying something. So they start to have some kids here as they go on, because, you know, you're broke, you're young, gotta have children. So they do.

Jimmy Whisman (43:40)

Is that what they did?

James Petregallo (43:41)

Absolutely. October 97, with Matthew hating his life working construction, them having a really hard time making ends meet. They of course have a daughter named Patricia at that point. Then they end up moving to Baton Rouge. In July of 1998, Matthew accepts his first job at a church.

Jimmy Whisman (43:59)

Nice.

James Petregallo (44:00)

So despite not graduating, he has enough charisma to get by on this. So the whole family moves to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where he became the youth minister at the Goodwood, Goodwood, Goodwood Boulevard Church of Christ. So if I see the word youth minister, I just picture Kelvin from the Righteous Gemstones, and that's all I see. That's it. I can't unsee this guy being Kelvin now. Perfect. Perfect. So seven months later, they move on again. Like I said, like a morning radio show host. There to Pegram, or Pegram to Tennessee, which is a small 2000 resident town outside of Nashville. That's what it was at the time. I'm sure it's bigger now because Nashville's blown up, but at the time it was small. Matthew got a new job as youth minister with the Bellevue Church of Christ. So they're settling in. They buy their first house, as a matter of fact. So good for them in a neighborhood that's got smaller houses and a lot of young families in it. A lot of. A lot of, you know, first house buyer time in this area. So they look very happy. Mary and Matthew, you know, they're doing from the outside, seem to do fine. Mary said later on told somebody that Matthew had actually been at his worst at this time. Oh. Which I don't know if that's stress or him being more comfortable or who knows what his. What the deal is. But the congregation loves them, though. They are told. A church elder said they were a real benefit and a blessing. He was a good daddy, she was a good mommy, and he was an excellent youth. Minister. Okay, so year 2000, Mary is pregnant again. Now, during the time she's pregnant, her mom is diagnosed with cancer and dies.

Jimmy Whisman (45:55)

Oh, no.

James Petregallo (45:56)

She had like an aggressive colon cancer that was. She was done before the gestation period of a baby is up. So that's rough. Her daughter now is born. Mary has another daughter named Mary Alice, who they call Ally. So that's another Mary. April 2002, moving again. Again, moving on. Matthew is doing well. So he gets a call and going up to the Central Church of Christ in McMinnville, Tennessee. So they moved there. McMinnville is a little bit bigger than the other town. They're going like, it's like morning radio. They're going to bigger markets, like, hey, I just got a job in Tucson, you know what I mean? Modesto is next. Like, I'm getting there. Boy, you have no idea. Moving along, moving right along. Eugene, Oregon, I'm this close. I swear to God, I'm going to get there one of these days. So this is a place that's southeast of Nashville. They buy a house there in September 2002, but aren't able to sell their other home that they bought until May of 2003. So that's about eight months of, nine months of double mortgage. That's rough. Double mortgage, double taxes, double insurance, double all that shit. And Ann Rule says this, says the Winklers having to carry two mortgages on two houses for eight months on a minister's salary was a financial burden for them, essentially. With two small girls and her church duties, it would have been hard for Mary to take a teaching job, even substitute teaching. She ends up finding a job at the post office. And that helped a little bit. A part time post office gig. In the fall of 2004, he started teaching. Matthew started teaching Bible classes to boys at the Boyd Christian School in McMinnville for a couple extra bucks, so they say. Anne Rule says as far as their neighbors knew, the Winkler marriage was sound. Some thought Mary was more friendly than Matthew was. While one man described her as odd, quote, odd, she wasn't too friendly. She didn't mix well, which doesn't sound like Mary at all. She's involved in every social activity possible. So that's odd, they said. Also, sometimes Mary and Matthew engaged in little PDAs. You know, they were hugging each other and even a little kiss during a church party or church meeting or something a little, which is considered. Ooh, look at them. Get a room, you two. You peck your wife on the cheek. They're like oh, Jesus. My kids are here. What the fuck, man?

Jimmy Whisman (48:30)

Zip it up.

James Petregallo (48:31)

Come on, take a zip. So in McMinnville, here, he's teaching all of this. The principal at the boys school or Boyd Christian School that he's teaching at said Matt had it all. He was handsome, he was full of personality, he was smart. But most importantly, he had a good Christian soul.

Jimmy Whisman (48:52)

Sure did.

James Petregallo (48:52)

I don't know what handsome would matter. Teaching kids the Bible. I don't know.

Jimmy Whisman (48:57)

It's easier to follow him if he looks better than me.

James Petregallo (49:00)

Oh, man. Yeah.

Jimmy Whisman (49:01)

Do whatever he does.

James Petregallo (49:03)

It's wild. So he's a fifth generation minister, by the way.

Jimmy Whisman (49:08)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (49:08)

His great grandfather was even a minister. Oh, wow. He is going at it. So at this point, Mary's unassuming, quiet, small, five one, long brunette hair. Everybody says she's always looking at the floor.

Jimmy Whisman (49:24)

What does that mean? She's shy.

James Petregallo (49:26)

Shy, which is. They like that, though, in the church. They say that that's supportive, submissive, silent. That's what they want for their wives.

Jimmy Whisman (49:34)

Insecure. It's fucking submissive.

James Petregallo (49:36)

Yeah. You got to be behind him because he's the. You know, that's just how the church goes there. So in this particular church, anyway, I don't want to cast a large aspersion now. They have cute little daughters. They got everything. They live in a nice brick house in a shady yard. Very nice. They have a pet dog named Firefly. Great. People said. Here's some quotes about them. They were the ideal family next door. They seem to live and breathe the Bible. One neighbor described them as, quote, perfect. So, you know, there's trouble. You just know it.

Jimmy Whisman (50:12)

It's a nightmare.

James Petregallo (50:13)

Yeah, you just know it. So some of the younger members of the congregation had, like, crushes on him, too, because he's the. You know, that happens a lot with religious leaders just because it's kind of like why people fall in love with their therapist or something. It's the trusting relationship that you have.

Jimmy Whisman (50:33)

Yeah, we've just built so much here.

James Petregallo (50:35)

Yeah, exactly. The young church members have a nickname for him. They call him Wink.

Jimmy Whisman (50:41)

What does that mean?

James Petregallo (50:42)

Winkler is his last name. Hey, Wink. Which. God damn it, that's bad. They said not. Not because he was a flirt or he wasn't winking at people. His name was Winkler. So everybody. There was no talk of him not being faithful to his wife or her not being faithful to him or any of that. They were just the perfect couple. Maybe not so perfect, though. Here are some people who saw some things that they didn't really like about this whole situation. Here's a friend of Mary's who said later he once saw her with a black eye when Matt was the youth minister at the Central Church of Christ in McMinnville. She had told this friend at the time that she was messing around with her two daughters, the two older daughters here. And one of them elbowed her in the eye. And so that was what they said. So he said, I don't know. I saw her with a black eye. She explained it away, which could very easily happen if you've had little kids. They are wild.

Jimmy Whisman (51:45)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (51:47)

My daughter split my fucking lip one time. It looked like somebody beat the shit out of me, but she had a toy and just turned. Turn quick and smash me in the face with it. Absolutely. Just my shit up when she was, like, 2 years old, bleeding all over the place. So, I mean, that's a fair thing. Just because someone has a black eye doesn't mean that their husband punched them.

Jimmy Whisman (52:06)

Right? And they throw things. Catch a fucking Hot Wheels in the face.

James Petregallo (52:13)

If she said, I slipped and fell into a doorknob, then you go, okay. Come on, Mary. What's going on? Are you okay? You know what I mean? But I was playing with my kids, and one of them threw an elbow at me. Seems reasonable.

Jimmy Whisman (52:24)

So easy.

James Petregallo (52:24)

Yeah. Also, another woman here, who's a woman named Laurie Boyd, who is a former Church of Christ secretary, said that it seemed to her that Matthew decided how much Mary ate and what she wore.

Jimmy Whisman (52:40)

Oh, I don't like that at all.

James Petregallo (52:41)

Which is the two most basic pieces of autonomy. What you wear and what you're putting into your body. Like, don't tell me how much to eat and what to wear. Imagine you've had girlfriends all the time.

Jimmy Whisman (52:53)

I don't tell anybody anything.

James Petregallo (52:55)

I'll go in the house and tell Sarah, stop eating and put this on. She'll fucking stab me in the face with a fork. I can't do that. And it'd be. I don't understand it.

Jimmy Whisman (53:02)

Stop eating that. Have some lettuce. Put this on.

James Petregallo (53:05)

Stop eating that and put this on. Is it gonna go over big? I don't think. And I wouldn't want her to wear whatever you want. I don't care.

Jimmy Whisman (53:11)

It's fucking weird.

James Petregallo (53:13)

So another guy here, her doctor, Mary's doctor, when she lived in McMinnville, he treated her for bruises to her right eye and right cheek. This is the same time the other guy saw the bruises. And she told him that she was hit by a softball. So two different stories about that, which is interesting there. I don't like that at all.

Jimmy Whisman (53:33)

No.

James Petregallo (53:35)

That'S not good. Now, Mary's family at this point, here's another piece of the puzzle. She becomes pretty much estranged from her father at this point. Her mother's dead. Yeah. Loses contact, for the most part with her adopted siblings. She'll end up having some contact with them, but not as much as they would like, which isn't good if you're separating someone from their family. That's weird. That is the biggest relationship red flag that a lady can fucking see is if the guy's trying to keep you away from friends and family. That's not good. Now, also, at the same time, sometimes people get to be in their late 20s and they start to realize, hey, my parents were pieces of shit and I don't want to talk to them anymore. That also happens. Yeah, that also happens. But the adopted siblings, that doesn't make a lot of sense here, Mary. This is from Ann Rules book. Mary's sister Tabitha would recall a conversation with Matthew where he called the Freeman family together, you know, all of Mary's family, and explain that they would have to accept that Mary would not be a part of their family the way she had been before.

Jimmy Whisman (54:41)

Why?

James Petregallo (54:42)

It's a real good question. Well, he. He said he and their marriage, him, the kids and their marriage had to come first, which obviously your family, your nuclear unit comes first. But then you still have time to call your dad on a Sunday and say hello or, you know, go over for a. Have lunch with him on a Tuesday or something. Like you could do that. You don't have to be exclusively one people.

Jimmy Whisman (55:06)

No.

James Petregallo (55:07)

Tabitha was stunned. She didn't see why being a wife would preclude Mary from being her sister, which obviously that seems crazy to say that. To say that. That would be, yeah, I'm a wife now. I can't possibly. I can't be her sister. I mean. Oh, God. You know, so she's just her and Matthew and the kids now. So, you know, there's that, though. Now, January 2005 is when they moved to Selmer, Tennessee. Matthew in January 2005, takes a job as a pulpit preacher at the Fourth Street Church of Christ in Selma.

Jimmy Whisman (55:44)

Right?

James Petregallo (55:44)

Yeah. All right. Now this is. And they move in and everybody says, oh, look at the perfect family, the perfect marriage, the perfect preacher with the perfect wife with perfect kids. We love them. Oh, my God. This is exactly what they are like. The clouds have opened up and a ray from heaven brought them down. Adorable little girls and a Nice wife with her head down and him with his charisma and all that bullshit. So, yeah, there are a lot of churches in Selmer, by the way.

Jimmy Whisman (56:16)

Really?

James Petregallo (56:16)

There's over 100 churches in Selmer with 4400 people.

Jimmy Whisman (56:19)

Over 100.

James Petregallo (56:20)

Over 100. It's a lot. They really like their church down there. So now about the Church of Christ. This is just from what I'm reading, looking it up. Their general thing is this is your literal Bible reading. The earth is 6,000 years old, all that shit.

Jimmy Whisman (56:42)

This is a documentary in book form.

James Petregallo (56:45)

Yes. And it's all literal. None of it's an allegory. None of it. Everything that's said is a literal thing that happened. It's not a, you know, it's not a metaphor. It's not any of that stuff, which I think. I'm not a religious guy, but I would think that would take the. The brilliance of the writing out of it. If it was just. If you took it literally, you'd go, okay. These people were just. They were just jotting down notes as they watched it rather than the actual. There's kind of a brilliance in some of the, you know, metaphorical things that go on and shit like that, I think is what they're.

Jimmy Whisman (57:19)

How it can relate to so many people at once.

James Petregallo (57:21)

How it can relate to different things. Yeah. And I'm not, like I said, I'm not a religious guy. I'm not a biblical guy, but I always thought that was kind of the point of it. So I don't know.

Jimmy Whisman (57:28)

We live like this because we all have a shared experience.

James Petregallo (57:32)

The literal reading is. You got to be out of your fucking mind to believe any of that shit. Like, I'm sorry, I know we're gonna have. People are gonna be mad at us for that. You think the Earth is 6,000 years old? You're a fucking moron. I'm sorry. It's not. It's clearly not.

Jimmy Whisman (57:47)

There's a lot of.

James Petregallo (57:48)

Every kid in third grade with a book about dinosaurs can tell you that it's not the truth. You know what I'm saying? It's just not. So that's one thing not to get off on that shit, but in this, though, it's old fashioned. It's very old fashioned. One article called it full immersion Adult baptism forbids the use of musical instruments during services. None of this song and dance.

Jimmy Whisman (58:13)

None of these rock concerts that we have here today.

James Petregallo (58:16)

Fire and brimstone. None of this shit. No, none of that. So it's not a denomination. The Church of Christ. Apparently they regard themselves as a network of like minded, autonomous congregations, each governed by its own slate of elders. They're not related to the United Church of Christ, which is a mainline Protestant denomination not affiliated with that. So the elders are assisted by deacons who have responsibilities such as keeping the church grounds. Good. And the pews all fucking in working order. The religious leader at the Churches of Christ affiliate typically is called an evangelist or a pulpit preacher. That's what Matthew is, their pulpit preacher. So they look perfect. There's some neighbors that hear some different shit, though.

Jimmy Whisman (59:01)

What do you mean?

James Petregallo (59:02)

Well, there's a neighbor here that says, we heard them arguing sometimes late at night. But you never think. I mean, they were the preacher's family. You just assume everything's fine behind those walls, do you? Why? No matter what you do for a living, that means nothing about what your private life is like. Nothing. And usually I think the opposite of whatever you're doing. If you're, like, signaling too much, I think you're doing worse. Shit. What are you doing behind closed doors? I don't like that shit. So Dan and Sharon Everett lived across the street from them, from Matt and Mary. They had foster children. They had six foster children and a dog also. That's a busy household. Which was a Rottweiler. They had a Rottweiler, I would say so. One day the Rottweiler strayed into Matt and Mary's lawn. Your neighbor's dog comes in your lawn, what do you do? You go, hey, buddy, come here. Where are you going? And then you take them back to their house. Right?

Jimmy Whisman (59:57)

Get them back home. Yeah.

James Petregallo (59:59)

Matthew got pissed. Oh. He crossed the street and confronted one of the foster kids, started yelling at one of the kids, then started yelling at the wife, Sharon, and said, quote, if you don't keep that dog away from my house, I'll kill it.

Jimmy Whisman (60:17)

Okay. So now he's threatening to kill dogs.

James Petregallo (60:19)

He's going to murder a neighbor's dog for no reason. Which is absolutely crazy. And there's a police report behind this as well. Yeah, it's crazy. So that's a lot. Sharon, I guess, said she tried to apologize and said the dog got out accidentally, it wasn't on purpose. And also, the dog's really friendly. She's not going to hurt anybody, so it's fine.

Jimmy Whisman (60:40)

It's okay.

James Petregallo (60:40)

Kind of push her back in our direction and it's okay. Matthew said, fuck that, and said, I'll kill that fucking dog if it comes in my yard again.

Jimmy Whisman (60:46)

Wow. Ever notice how ads always pop up at the worst moments, when the killer's identity is about to be revealed during.

James Petregallo (60:56)

That perfect meditation flow.

Jimmy Whisman (60:59)

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James Petregallo (61:02)

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Jimmy Whisman (61:03)

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James Petregallo (61:13)

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Jimmy Whisman (61:15)

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James Petregallo (61:21)

Oh, hey. Welcome to gift wrapping. Whoa.

Jimmy Whisman (61:23)

So we Saldana.

James Petregallo (61:24)

Hey, can you wrap these please?

Jimmy Whisman (61:26)

Wow.

James Petregallo (61:26)

IPhone 17s.

Jimmy Whisman (61:27)

You splurged at T Mobile. You can get four iPhone 17s on them.

James Petregallo (61:31)

The new center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies.

Jimmy Whisman (61:34)

It's the perfect gift for everyone. I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.

James Petregallo (61:37)

Well, it's better than socks. So I have to trade in my old phone, right? No AT T Mobile, there's no trade ins needed when you switch.

Jimmy Whisman (61:44)

Keep your old phone or it as a gift. Incredible. In fact, wrap up my old phone.

James Petregallo (61:49)

Too for my Aunt Rosa. Forget that.

Jimmy Whisman (61:51)

Aunt Liz will be jealous.

James Petregallo (61:52)

Sounds like my family drama. Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela.

Jimmy Whisman (61:56)

I'll take reindeer paper with. Hey, where are you going?

James Petregallo (61:58)

To T Mobile. The holidays are better. AT T Mobile get four iPhone 17s on us. No trade in needed when you switch plus four lines for just 25 bucks a line. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores with 24 month legal credits and four eligible boardings on essentials for well qualified customers. Auto pay + taxes, fees and $35 device connection charge credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Contact Us Finance Agreement 256GB, $830 required Visit T mobile.com AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed.

Jimmy Whisman (62:27)

But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice.

James Petregallo (62:34)

Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation@rubrik.com that's R U B R-I K.com so Dan, the husband, he went over to try to smooth things over, which is a different way than things would go down in my neighborhood if you did that. You'd go, ew, what are you fuck you threatening my fucking wife and kids? I'll kill. Oh, I'll fucking kill you. There'd be people murdering each other. So Dan goes over to try to smooth things out and wow. Matthew said, quote I wouldn't do that if I Were you? There's a law against firing guns in city limits. That's what he told him. And then he said, and if I ever see that dog again, I'll shoot him.

Jimmy Whisman (63:25)

Okay?

James Petregallo (63:26)

Okay. Now, after that, the Everett's never spoke to Matthew again.

Jimmy Whisman (63:31)

Really?

James Petregallo (63:32)

Sharon would wave when his car drove by. He never waved back. That was over. But they said Mary was as friendly as she could be and she always returned the wave. So this had nothing to do with her. Basically, Sharon said it this way. The neighbor, quote, look, if he was that way out here in public, you can imagine what he had to be like in private. They just knew him with his suit on, meaning all the people in town just knew him, his public image, which was. Yeah. Also there was neighbors that said they saw black eyes on Mary, heavy makeup around black eyes and things like that. And they all said that Mary would always cower when Matthew was around, which was kind of how that, you know, that's kind of for show too, but I'm not sure if that was real. Also, we don't know. March 2005. They have another baby named Brianna who was born prematurely. Shit. So the baby has to be held at this Nashville hospital, which is 150 miles away, as we talked about, you know, decent drive.

Jimmy Whisman (64:35)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (64:35)

So they have to go back and forth, basically. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So this is very expensive. And they're piss poor broke at this point. Mary is the person. She does the bookkeeping and the bill paying and things of that nature. So she ends up falling for a scam. What they. Apparently in Africa, they call it the 419 scheme, the 419. Because that's the law in Nigeria that bans it. Law. 419. The scammers, basically. This is the Yahoo. Yahoo boys. Ever heard of that shit?

Jimmy Whisman (65:11)

No.

James Petregallo (65:12)

It's a huge group because they have Yahoo accounts and tons of them. So that's where they got the nickname, basically. This is the old, you've won a million dollars, you just need to send us your processing fees. Bullshit. They're like Nigerian prince shit. Hey, I have $50 million, but it's being held in escrow and I need a five grand to get by. And I give you a million dollars if you give me five grand. So Mary gets checks in the mail from these people. One's from Canada, one's from Nigeria, for a total of $17,500. She deposits them and withdraws $500 cash. But the checks are fake. Yeah, obviously. So the bank calls her and says, hey, you just withdrew money from shit that doesn't exist.

Jimmy Whisman (65:58)

Bad checks. Yeah.

James Petregallo (65:59)

So Mary, we need that money back. Mary says, oh, shit. So she starts writing checks from one account to cover checks on another account. Just basically trying to move money to make it work when there's not enough.

Jimmy Whisman (66:11)

There to cover money that. So she knows already this check bounced.

James Petregallo (66:16)

Yeah. So she's like, oh, fuck, I got scammed. This isn't good.

Jimmy Whisman (66:19)

She knows she's been scammed.

James Petregallo (66:20)

Oh, totally. Yeah. Once they tell her the check is fake and she's fucked. She knows what happened and she's like, oh, no. So she starts opening new accounts. She's moved accounts that aren't even in town. She's opening new banks. Over $500 more because it gets worse because as she starts writing more money for checks that they don't have the money, the total gets bigger and bigger and bigger that she's.

Jimmy Whisman (66:41)

A check bounced and she went and got another one.

James Petregallo (66:45)

No, she took $500 out that they didn't have. So then she had to cover other stuff. So she was writing checks from other accounts that have. Don't have the money to cover ones that she does. So it snowballs. It snowballs from there. It's not good. Then there's all the fees of bounce checks and all that stuff. Everything adds up. She changes her. Gets new accounts in her name, only to try to hide this from Matthew, apparently changes her mailing address to a P.O. box.

Jimmy Whisman (67:13)

This started over $500.

James Petregallo (67:16)

Started over $500 and got worse. And we'll talk about where they are in a minute when we get there in a sec. So she tried to remove Matthew's name from their bank account also at one point. So March 20, 2006. Church secretary Betty Wilkerson sees Mary and Matt having lunch together on March 20th. Okay. She said they were having lunch in his office, talking and laughing together. They were the ideal family next door. The perfect family. I gave them chocolate chip muffins to eat for dessert. Oh, boy, that's nice. So March 21, the family account at Regions bank is overdrawn by $5,000. This is what it snowballed to.

Jimmy Whisman (67:56)

She.

James Petregallo (67:59)

She's all fucked up. Yeah. So she is trying to fix this. This is the same day, March 21, that she has her first day of work as a substitute teacher at Selmer Elementary School, which. Substitute teaching. That's a lot of shifts to cover five grand in substitute teaching.

Jimmy Whisman (68:16)

Oh, my God. That's like both semesters.

James Petregallo (68:20)

Yes. Now there's people who say that Matthew knew about this and knew what happened and was just as involved in getting scammed. And then there's a lot of other people that say Matthew had no idea and Mary was trying to fix this on her own without having the embarrassment of telling him that she got scammed. Basically.

Jimmy Whisman (68:38)

It is embarrassing.

James Petregallo (68:39)

Nobody wants to feel like that. No. That's why people don't tell people when they get scammed. And then more people get scammed because.

Jimmy Whisman (68:43)

They'Re embarrassed, because it's fucking. You feel like an idiot.

James Petregallo (68:47)

Yeah, I've heard. I've read in books about like, like a NFL locker room. Some guy will come in with some financial shit and he'll scam 10 different guys because none of the guys will tell anybody they got scammed. So then other guys will go invest money in this guy, in this guy because they're all embarrassed.

Jimmy Whisman (69:06)

So if I get scammed in my mind, I can't wait to tell fucking everyone.

James Petregallo (69:10)

Oh, I'm so mad.

Jimmy Whisman (69:12)

I'm so mad.

James Petregallo (69:13)

I'm angry.

Jimmy Whisman (69:13)

I believe I did this.

James Petregallo (69:15)

Out of your fucking mind. So this first day of school, her co workers noticed that she is on the phone all day. It's her cell phone. It's two different banks are calling her. The Regions bank in Selmer and the First State bank in Henderson. They want. One of the banks wants Matthew and Mary to come in to meet with them the next day, March 22, to explain what the fuck's going on and how we're going to get our money back and why we shouldn't call the cops on you. Essentially. So Mary goes home after work that evening. The family orders Pizza Hut and watches the movie Chicken Little.

Jimmy Whisman (69:53)

Nice choice.

James Petregallo (69:54)

There you go. Except for the Pizza Hut, but in this area, I think that's probably the best pizza you're gonna get anyway.

Jimmy Whisman (70:00)

Probably, yeah.

James Petregallo (70:01)

So the girls go to bed at 8:30. Apparently Matthew and Mary argue about money and overdrawn accounts and all that kind of thing and then go to bed angry. Okay. That's all we know. Now. This is from a book called the Pastor's Wife by Diane Fanning. She says church elder Roger Graham's memory of the night here said, quote, matthew called me around 10 o' clock that Tuesday night. He sounded agitated. He said, mary and I had a little disagreement tonight, but everything's fine now. Okay. Now, Mary doesn't sleep very well.

Jimmy Whisman (70:39)

No.

James Petregallo (70:40)

6:15Am is wake up time. That's when the alarm always goes off.

Jimmy Whisman (70:44)

Wow.

James Petregallo (70:45)

Okay. That's what we know of what happened that night. The next day, March 22, at 2006, the Wednesday at 9:22pm Remember, that's the day they're supposed to go to the bank at noon. They never went to the bank. No, no. And that Wednesday night, it's Wednesday church service. It's a big service Wednesday. Matt doesn't show up to do a shift preaching. So they sit there and wait for him and wait for him. And you know, this is like a comic not showing up for the show. No fucking show now. Yeah, I already bought my two drinks and I got no jokes now. What's going on? So they said Matthew never missed a service, especially if he's leading the service, which he was supposed to lead this one. So bunch of the church people pile in a car and drive to the house.

Jimmy Whisman (71:29)

Really?

James Petregallo (71:30)

Wow. That is gonna call in over here. Jesus Christ. They knock on the door, Nobody answers. Windows are closed, doors are locked, lights on inside. And they hear the TV playing loudly as well. They're like, okay, somebody's gotta be home. So they keep knocking. They're calling the phone, the house phone. No one's answering. They hear it ringing in there. No one's answering it. They keep knocking. Nobody responses. So they call one of the church elders and they go, hey, we're over here. He's not answering the door. And so they said, what should we do? The church elder said, I know where the spare key is. Find it and go inside.

Jimmy Whisman (72:09)

He knows how to get into their house.

James Petregallo (72:11)

Yeah, they all have to tell each other where the spare key is. Who knows if that church elder watered their plants when they went to. You know what I mean, when they went to have the daughter and all that kind of shit. Who knows? But anyway, they say, go inside his house, even though it seems like he's in there and purposely not answering the door. You should break in with a key. So they get the key, they figure that all out, and about a half hour later, they get in. Now, inside the house, they're calling for Matthew, Mary. They're calling the girls names, calling everybody. No one answers. They hear the TV playing, but that's it. Everything's in place. There's not like a china cabinet knocked over, chairs broken. Like there was a fucking old west saloon fight in there or something. It's fine. So they reach the master bedroom. The door is closed. They open someone's master bedroom door to their formerly locked house.

Jimmy Whisman (73:06)

Just pushed right on in.

James Petregallo (73:08)

Yeah, right on in here.

Jimmy Whisman (73:09)

He'd be fucking in there.

James Petregallo (73:10)

That's what I mean. Him and Mary could be. Absolutely. I mean, they could have dropped the Kids off with the parents. And he could be just her face like nobody's business right now while she's got a giant vibrator. Yeah, they could have fucking you. This hanging from the ceiling. It could. Could be wild.

Jimmy Whisman (73:30)

They may have forgotten it was. It was pulpit night.

James Petregallo (73:33)

Yeah, that's what they for. Oh, shit. Really? Matthew's, like, suspended from the ceiling.

Jimmy Whisman (73:37)

I said it was Tuesday.

James Petregallo (73:38)

God damn it, Mary. I said it was Wednesday. I knew it. So they open the door and they find Matthew not in a good state.

Jimmy Whisman (73:47)

No.

James Petregallo (73:47)

He is face down on the floor in a big pool of blood.

Jimmy Whisman (73:50)

Oh, no.

James Petregallo (73:51)

Blood patter on the walls. Bloody foam dried on his face. Not looking good. Matthew's seen better days. Big, giant hole in his back.

Jimmy Whisman (74:00)

Oh, boy.

James Petregallo (74:01)

And very, very dead. Extremely dead. And also they automatically go for the phone and find it to be unplugged from the wall. Jack. Yeah, interesting. So they all go into the living room and pray for a minute.

Jimmy Whisman (74:16)

What?

James Petregallo (74:17)

Later. That's later.

Jimmy Whisman (74:20)

We got a body.

James Petregallo (74:22)

We gotta round up the troops here. That's later. So they go into there and pray and they call the cops, obviously. Now everybody out there is going, oh, my God. We went through the house. We saw Matthew, but who did we not see? Mary and the children.

Jimmy Whisman (74:39)

Where are they?

James Petregallo (74:40)

So they assume this is a home invasion where the kids and wife have been now taken. So they're terrified. Everybody is. I will read from the end rule book here. Roger Rickman, an investigator with the Selmer Police Department with a quarter century of police experience, was one of the first to arrive at the parsonage, which is their land plot here.

Jimmy Whisman (74:59)

Okay.

James Petregallo (75:00)

I don't know why they love calling it a parsonage in Tennessee. He saw that Matthew Winkler had apparently died where he lay. He wore a red undershirt, a green long sleeved shirt, and what could be called either pajama or lounging pants. House gear, you know. Yeah. The minister's arms were flung out with his right hand touching the bathroom door and the left extending under the bed. His right leg was straight and his left leg was bent at the knee so that his ankles were crossed. So everybody get the picture there? At first glance, there wasn't much blood apparent, save for the froth from his mouth, which indicated some sort of injury to his lungs, obviously breathing out blood. But when the investigators turned the husky minister over, they found that he had lost almost all the blood in his body, bleeding out from a gunshot wound located to the left of his spinal column in the lower thoracic area just above his waist. So not like in the middle of your back, but down low?

Jimmy Whisman (76:04)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Petregallo (76:05)

The bedding and carpet beneath were soaked with mostly dried blood. So that helps to find out when this happened. The blood is drying, things like that. They said whatever internal wounds Winkler had, his immediate cause of death would probably have been exanguation, which is bleeding out. He had bled to death. So they said the beginning of rigor mortis and the temperature of Matthew Winkler's body indicated that he'd probably been dead for more than 12 hours. So they said at this point they don't know where Mary and the girls are. And it's been at least 12 hours. They could be taken anywhere.

Jimmy Whisman (76:39)

Anywhere. 12 hour head start for 12 hour.

James Petregallo (76:42)

Head start is insane. That's huge. I mean they could be on a flight to anywhere.

Jimmy Whisman (76:46)

Six states away.

James Petregallo (76:47)

Absolutely. Well, man, Tennessee maybe not too, because it's eight hours across the state. Yeah, no, I was just making Tennessee his big joke. So where the fuck are Mary and the girls? They said they weren't anywhere in the house. And the family's Toyota Sienna minivan. Ooh, that's the worst. We've had long, we had long Toyota Sienna conversations. One time we were in some city and the only Ubers, they were all Toyota Siennas. And we're like, what's going on? Madison, Madison, Wisconsin. You will get a 65 year old lady driving you in a Toyota Sienna if you take three Uber rides guaranteed. And they'll be nice as shit. Friendly.

Jimmy Whisman (77:26)

Yeah, it'll be beautiful.

James Petregallo (77:27)

Real nice. So the minivan's missing from the driveway. So they're wondering, did Matthew die trying to protect his family?

Jimmy Whisman (77:36)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (77:36)

Someone come in and he got said, you know, you're not doing this or whatever. And then they shot him and just took everybody. They said, we're marrying the girls now. Hostages of some psychopath or what the fuck here. So they said, if Matthew had been killed, this is for mad rules book had been killed in a home invasion robbery. Something should be missing. So that's what we're looking for. So the detectives see on his dresser is a money clip with cash in it and a decent wad of cash, which is strange. So they're like, his driver's license is there too. So they're like, that's right on the dresser.

Jimmy Whisman (78:10)

If you're stealing, he's dead and there's a bundle of cash right there.

James Petregallo (78:13)

You're stealing shit. You'd grab that right off the bat on the way out the door. Like you don't even have to go in his Pocket for it, they said. A check of the other rooms in the house were a tiny bit reassuring as well. There was no signs of blood or struggle any place but in the master bedroom, they said. Still, Winkler's family was gone and Mary hadn't called to summon help for her husband and no one had heard from her. So this didn't look good. This looked like we're looking for four more corpses at some point here. Three of them are tiny. So the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation agents Chris Carpenter and Mike Frizzell arrived near midnight. From the appearance of the single wound in Matthew Winkler's back, all the detectives felt that the death weapon had been a shotgun fired from a decent distance away. Not right on top of him either. There was no gun though, in the house or the yard. They searched the whole property, found no gun. So they're like, okay, which. That means the murderer either came with a gun or took whatever. Wherever the murder weapon came from, they took it with them, obviously. So along with the family. So they issue an Amber Alert at.

Jimmy Whisman (79:22)

This point because we got two kids.

James Petregallo (79:24)

Three kids.

Jimmy Whisman (79:26)

Three kids, right.

James Petregallo (79:26)

Including a baby.

Jimmy Whisman (79:28)

Right.

James Petregallo (79:28)

This is terrifying. There are three small, four girls, a woman and three girls. Four female human beings are missing and one of them is very, very tiny and a baby. So Amber Alert is issued here for Patricia, 8, Mary Alice, 6 and 1 year old Brianna and 32 year old Mary. Family minivan, 2006 gray Toyota Sienna, also put out there on the wire for everybody. And the police assumption is they've been murdered already. Probably, yeah, they're probably. They're probably dead and in some woods somewhere. Yeah, we're in trouble or like in a burned. And the van's been set on fire in some reservoir or something. So the whole town is freaking out. And this is a crazy case. Dead pastor with his wife and three little girls kidnapped. Like the media goes bonkers. People from everywhere come to Selmer. I mean, this is not a town where anybody from outside of it ever goes to, you know what I mean? So this is crazy. It's like a movie, all these people just descending on this town. So the autopsy on Matthew begins on March 24th here. And they said rigor mortis had begun to stiffen his body, but was not yet complete. The red and purple markings on the portion of the body that had been the lowest where the blood had pooled and where his heart had stopped before lividity, as we call it, were fixed and complete on his back and buttocks with blanching along the parts that had touched the floor. Of the Winkler's bedroom. There were would be a few surprises in this autopsy. Matthew Winkler had only one real wound, along with some scratches on the front of his right knee and lower leg, which perhaps he made as he crawled on the floor in an attempt to escape. After he was shot, he said he.

Jimmy Whisman (81:19)

Might have to get away.

James Petregallo (81:20)

A couple of crawls and then he collapsed. He'd been shot in the back by a weapon far enough away that there was no soot around the wound. So definitely not a contact wound. So they said in this autopsy quote. In the middle of the back is a 3 quarter inch in diameter shotgun wound of entrance with slight irregular margins and an irregular 1:16-18 circumference, marginal abrasion. The defect is located 21.5 inches below the top of the head and at the posterior midline. 5 evenly spaced half inch by half inch rectangular abrasions surround the defect as dictated by Dr. Turner. The defect left by the shotgun shell sounded clinical and had no emotion. But the fatal wound was horrific of course, as all shotgun wounds are. Pellets of birdshot and wadding from the contents of the shotgun shell had blasted and it was back. Apparently it was 77 birdshot pellets they took out of him. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah, so they said after it perforated his skin, fatty tissue and the muscles in his back. The bird shot cut through four ribs in the middle of his back and tore through the lower lobe of his left lung. His diaphragm, stomach, spleen, pancreas and left adrenal gland. Tore him apart. Inside there were contusions in the upper lobe of his left lung and the lower lobe of his right lung. And two of the vertebrae in his spinal column were broken. Okay, so this is just a mess. His trachea and lungs were awash in aspirated blood and his stomach held a hundred milliliters of blood. White foam from his ruined lungs had bubbled from his nose and mouth, they said carefully. Dr. Turner collected scores of pellets of the bird shot and plastic wadding from the internal organs. Whoever held the shotgun had stood above Matthew. The trajectory of the bird shot could be traced from his back to the front of his body. Okay, from right to left and slightly downward. So this is not someone shorter than him that shot him while he was standing up backwards.

Jimmy Whisman (83:29)

Shot too from behind.

James Petregallo (83:31)

Either he's laying down or somebody taller or however it works because it's a downward. Okay, now they're still frantically searching for Mary and the girls at this point. Then on March 23, 2006, in Orange Beach, Alabama. Okay. An unlikely spot for the story to go. Officer Jason Whitlock. Not the sports reporter guy, not that guy. Douchebag, not that guy. Spots a gray minivan matching the Amber Alert description at one point. Now, he spots it and he sees it making a legal U turn on Perdido Beach Boulevard.

Jimmy Whisman (84:11)

Great.

James Petregallo (84:12)

So he pulls it over with standard procedure used for radio to check for wants and warrants. As you do, you run the plate. So the report came back and told him what was going on, basically. So he said, holy shit, this is a big one. I stopped with an alert, an Amber Alert. So he immediately called for backup, and three units arrived to surround the vehicle in a Walmart parking lot. Now, they said Whitlock had no idea what he might find, so he used great caution as he walked toward the driver's side window. They said that if Mary and her children were still alive and uninjured, he didn't want to do anything that would spook whoever took them and have them have this guy start. Yeah. Start shooting him in the car or something, you know what I mean? So they're like, fuck that. He said he didn't want to do anything that might place them in more danger. They said a kidnapper would probably try to hold them as shields to keep from being arrested. So they're aware of all this. You might have a baby as a human shield here. So he said. But when Whitlock walked to the window, I mean, he is like, you can imagine. Heart beaten.

Jimmy Whisman (85:15)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (85:16)

Holy shit. Walking past the tents of the back. Oh, damn it. Walks in, looks in the window. He said he was shocked. Shocked.

Jimmy Whisman (85:24)

How bad is that?

James Petregallo (85:25)

Just sees Mary at the wheel with three kids in there. Everybody's fine. No one else in the car. Just the four of them.

Jimmy Whisman (85:30)

Good news, guys. We've been looking for you.

James Petregallo (85:33)

Everybody looks healthy and happy and clean and okay. That's odd. Unhurt. They're like, okay, that's good. Everyone's healthy. But what the hell's going on? So they draw guns, man, get out of the vehicle, show your hands, all that kind of thing. Mary steps out. She's wearing a pink jumpsuit, very calm.

Jimmy Whisman (85:51)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (85:51)

No anything, no question. Even ask what's going on? Nothing.

Jimmy Whisman (85:54)

Just think, everything's fine, everything's good.

James Petregallo (85:58)

Yeah. The really weird. They said she got out. This is from the cop. She got out and she never asked why she was stopped, why there were officers pointing guns at her or anything. She really made guns, too. Yeah. They surrounded the car they had guns out and everything. She really made no expression on her face and she was detained. They said the girls were totally fine, they were having a good day. Patricia kept asking, where's mommy? What's happening? Where's Mommy going? What's going on? So Mary told the girls as this is happening, daddy's in the hospital, we're going to visit him soon. The girls are like, okay, sure, sounds good. You didn't explain why you're in handcuffs, but great. So the police take all the girls out of the car, the young, the children here, and they search the van and in the trunk they find a shotgun.

Jimmy Whisman (86:48)

Oh, they're like, what is this here for?

James Petregallo (86:52)

Okay, interesting. So where the fuck has Mary been?

Jimmy Whisman (86:57)

Yeah, well, first stop, skeet shooting pretty much, yeah.

James Petregallo (87:00)

We're going out for a nice day of target shooting at the range here. First stop, they went to Jackson, Mississippi at a Fairfield Inn and she paid cash there. The next morning they went to the Orange Beach, Alabama at the sleep in, which is 340 miles from Selmer if you're keeping track. This is basically a vacation beach spot. A lot of tourists here and shit. So she took the girls to the beach and to an amusement park that day. Oh, she actually tells the arresting officer, quote, I just wanted to be with them before they had bad days. You know, have a happy day.

Jimmy Whisman (87:36)

Right.

James Petregallo (87:37)

That's what she tells the officer. She's like, whoa.

Jimmy Whisman (87:39)

She knew the dad was dead then?

James Petregallo (87:41)

Oh yeah, apparently so. So 9:55pm Orange Beach Police Department. The cops are going to try to talk to her.

Jimmy Whisman (87:49)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (87:50)

And you could see in her mug shot she just looks, looks, looks like she's just a stone face. Yeah, looks depressed, looks sad. Just looks like you. It's like her dog just died. Looks tough. All the cops were really weirded out by her lack of any emotion whatsoever, of anything. Not even like about the kids. Nothing. It was just nothing. She was very flat on the affect there, the one. Assistant Police Chief Greg Duck said there were no tears shed. Yeah, exactly, he said that. No tears shed that I know of. And he said actually she seemed relieved. Mary. So here we go. Corporal Stan Stabler, AL Investigation or Bureau of Investigation. He sits down with Mary. She's calm, real calm, eerily creepily calm. No tears, no nothing, just flat. So he tries to do the background shit, rapport with her. How long you've been married? How was your marriage? She said, I was married 9 years, 11 months. Good marriage? It was fine. What about the kids? She said they're very sweet girls. Okay, so he says at one point, step by step, tell me what happened. She says, nothing. She just stares at him. Just stares at him. Okay. He said, why can't you talk to us? More silence. Staring at him. Okay, this is interesting. It's like kind of like Ruby Frankie style. You've seen that interrogation. When they sit her down and she just stares at them and blinks. And it's like when she stares at them and blinks, you're just like your fucking kid was starving. You fucking. I just wanna. I want someone to clothesline her out of her fucking chair. Yeah, I don't care what your excuse is. Your kids are starving and you lock them in rooms. I will choke them out.

Jimmy Whisman (89:53)

Give me an out of you, but give me an excuse for something.

James Petregallo (89:57)

Something. Tell me anything. Anything. She just blinks.

Jimmy Whisman (90:00)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (90:01)

And has that smug look on her face.

Jimmy Whisman (90:03)

It's crazy.

James Petregallo (90:04)

This Mary's not like that at all. She's just. Just flat. Like. She looks like she's been through a lot and is like catatonic almost. So he said, I feel like you have genuine concern. Tell me why a mother of three, a wife of over nine years, almost 10 years, what would make you do this since you had the shotgun and all? She says, quote, no comment.

Jimmy Whisman (90:28)

No comment.

James Petregallo (90:30)

The strangest thing I've ever heard in an interrogation room. No comment. Like the presses. Like the paparazzi's hounding her outside of a movie premiere.

Jimmy Whisman (90:40)

I didn't ask you if you're dating that hot young star.

James Petregallo (90:44)

Yeah, this wasn't what I was asking. What's going on? I didn't ask him if you're, you know, there was trouble on the set with the director here. So they talk about the ride. He changes gears and he says, well, what about the ride down there? And she said, again, I just wanted to be with them before they had bad days. And she said, they've never been to a beach that they remember. So I wanted to take them to the beach. She said, I wanted to give them one last happy memory, you know, and all that. So they said, what about affairs, Money problems? Is he having an affair? You having an affair? What's the deal? She said, no, no major problems. No good.

Jimmy Whisman (91:20)

Okay, so why?

James Petregallo (91:22)

So they said, well, explain. She explained, Matthew's a full time pastor at his church and there's about 200 people in the congregation. His only income is church salary and some from speaking engagements because they were like, well, break down financially. What do you guys do? That income was kind of random whack. A mole income that you can't count on just speaking engagements. She said Matthew was planning to start on getting his master's degree in the summer or by the fall, definitely. So she said they asked her, when was the last time you talked to him? And she said, yesterday morning at home. Okay. So he said, what did y' all discuss? And she said, no real conversation, just no comment. I don't know.

Jimmy Whisman (92:07)

What are you saying?

James Petregallo (92:08)

This is weird. So Ann Rule book goes on to say, quote, she had come out from where her mind was hiding just a little bit, but now she scurried back. She didn't want to talk about Wednesday morning. Stabler, Stabler, by the way, is Chris Maloney on fucking on svu?

Jimmy Whisman (92:26)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (92:27)

Is that his name? Stabler. Stabler, yeah. So that's pretty funny. There's a Stabler harassing or sitting here interrogating someone. Stabler talked quietly to her, asking her to tell him her side of what happened, what problems she faced. He asked her to tell him what was troubling her so much. She said, I just can't right now.

Jimmy Whisman (92:46)

Not right now.

James Petregallo (92:48)

Yeah. And so he says, okay. And she said, quote, I appreciate. I feel like you have genuine concern and I do appreciate you. I'm just not up to that right now.

Jimmy Whisman (93:00)

Not right now.

James Petregallo (93:01)

Not right now. Maybe later. So he kept talking and she kept talking. And Ann Rule goes on to say Mary Winkler rambled quite a bit, telling him she had heard children's voices when she was handcuffed in an area of the police station. And then she realized it was her own children. So she thought she was losing her mind for a minute.

Jimmy Whisman (93:20)

Oh, my God.

James Petregallo (93:21)

But that's kind of how out of it she is. She didn't even realize that the kids. The kids are there too. She's kind of out of it. She said, I about did a backflip to get out of it because I was in the line of sight. She didn't want the kids to see her in handcuffs. She said, those three right there are my only concern right now. She, I guess, used they asked her if anybody I can get a hold of for the kids and all that kind of thing. So they had called Matthew's parents. So she said, nana and papa are going to come get them and all that kind of thing. They're on the way. So she felt like she could relax when they arrived because she knew that her mother in law would take good care of the kids. So she said at that point she could take a breath and relax. She was in this interrogation room and didn't know where her kids were before that. They were in some other room and she didn't know what was going on, which would worry any parent, obviously.

Jimmy Whisman (94:13)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (94:14)

So Stabler then asked her if she would. Would you tell me what happened? Just tell me what happened?

Jimmy Whisman (94:21)

Whisper. Anything. Tell me something.

James Petregallo (94:23)

Yeah. And so he. He said, I haven't been told really anything myself. I don't know. I've talked with the girls a little bit. Okay. And they told me what they've seen and heard. And she said, right. And he said, I need you to fill in those gaps a little bit. All three know to an extent what's taken place. I don't think the one year old knows anything, by the way. The one year old doesn't know how not to shit in its pants. So I doubt that it knows.

Jimmy Whisman (94:49)

It's probably not going to give you much info.

James Petregallo (94:51)

Yeah, I wouldn't think so. So Mary, anyway, yeah, all three know to an extent what's taking place. She then said, what did you ask me? Which is a weird question.

Jimmy Whisman (95:03)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (95:05)

He said to tell me what happened.

Jimmy Whisman (95:07)

Right.

James Petregallo (95:08)

That's why we're sitting here, remember? And again she said she wasn't ready to do that yet. So they went and talked to her kids about the events of the past and anything like that as that happened. When they're talking about it, she listened. And then when she finally spoke, she talked. This is from Ann Rule's book. She talked not of her own complicity, but of her concern for Matthew and what the newspapers might say. Say about him.

Jimmy Whisman (95:38)

Okay.

James Petregallo (95:39)

She's concerned with the press spin on him.

Jimmy Whisman (95:44)

What are they going to say about him?

James Petregallo (95:46)

Well, she said, quote, no matter what, in the end, I don't want it. I don't want him smeared. That's what she said. They're sitting there going, we're trying to smear you at this point. You're the one who we found with a shotgun, so you're the one we're interested in.

Jimmy Whisman (96:01)

He is smeared all over the bedroom.

James Petregallo (96:03)

Yeah. You've smeared blood everywhere. So Mary Winkler talked in circles, Ann Rule says, saying she didn't know what words to use to explain what happened. I don't know what words to use. How about you draw us a picture, Something stick figures? She said, sometimes I think something might have happened. And then there's no way. So he says, did he hurt you? Let's go to that. That'll make it easier. Is there a reason maybe why you did this? And she said, quote, not physically is her answer for everyone who solves Crime from their couch, knows more about forensics than their own job and has trust issues with small town sheriffs. Amazon Music's millions of podcast episodes are calling. Just download the Amazon music app and start listening to your favorite true crime podcasts ad free included with Prime. So then Stabler asked Mary if she knew her husband's condition at the present time. And she said she didn't. But at one point she asked, has there been a funeral yet? Which it's the next day, so it's obviously there hasn't been a funeral yet. She's not with it all the. Her mind is somewhere else at this moment in time. So they said, was he alive when you left the house or do you know for sure? And she said, I don't know. So they said, okay, Mary, why did you shoot him? Silence. He said, had you planned ahead of time to shoot him or did it happen just in the spur of the moment? And then finally she says, quote, not planned.

Jimmy Whisman (97:39)

Okay.

James Petregallo (97:39)

That's all she'll give out at that room. Not planned. She said she had never shot that gun before. It was Matthew's like bird hunting gun or some shit. So she kept denying that she had shot Matthew at that point. But then she would go back in her mind to the time when she was driving away from Selmer the night before and just start talking about something else. She said, quote, driving down the road, something would go in my head and I thought there was no way what had just happened. And then I hadn't really seen anything or heard anything. I've used my name everywhere I went. And this was just my last time to be with them. And we were just going to have some fun. I just wanted to be with them before they had bad days. Okay. Then she said, I just don't want to talk about Matthew because I don't want to smear him no matter what. She goes back to that. So they said, the shotgun, where was it? Did you load it? Let's start there. So she said, we kept it in the top of the closet out of reach. I messed it up and put it back. And they said, okay. They said, how do you know you didn't shoot more than once? And she said, I don't. Oh, I don't. I don't know what happened.

Jimmy Whisman (98:54)

She's unaware of what she did.

James Petregallo (98:56)

Yeah. Now back to the Ann rulebook. They said, she spoke now about Matthew. She'd been thinking about him and about how he had so many rules and schedules for her to follow and all this. She said, I love him. Dearly. But gosh, he just nailed me to the ground. I was real good for quite some time. My problem was I got a job at the post office a couple years ago and the first of our marriage, I just took it like a mouse. I didn't think anything different. My mom just took it from my dad and that stupid scenario and I got a job where I have to have nerve and high self esteem. And. And I have been battling this for years. For some time. At some point it was really good. Then I don't know, we moved over a year ago, February 2005 and it just came back out for some reason. I mean that is such a. I believe everything she said there because the way it came out, it's not planned. That is literally as the thoughts entered her brain, they fell out of her mouth.

Jimmy Whisman (100:04)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (100:05)

Didn't think any different. My mom took it from my dad and that whole stupid scenario and I got a job or I have to have this nerve and high self esteem. She's just emptying whatever's up there. There's no like narrative. You know what I'm saying? There's no like narrative. She.

Jimmy Whisman (100:20)

There's not. There's no reason.

James Petregallo (100:22)

Linear.

Jimmy Whisman (100:23)

Yeah. She's not talking about anything.

James Petregallo (100:25)

No. She's just saying things because I think she's not in a good state of mind. So the stabler said he would knock your self esteem down. And she said no, just chewing whatever. And that's the problem. It's little things. That's what she was thinking about at that moment is the time that he yelled at her for chewing weird or something. But that's how she's not. Her brain isn't together at this point. She says I'm just chewing whatever. And that's the problem. I have nerve now and I have self esteem. Quote. So my ugly came out.

Jimmy Whisman (101:01)

Okay. So she.

James Petregallo (101:02)

My ugly came out.

Jimmy Whisman (101:03)

Yeah. So he said don't chew like that. And she shot him.

James Petregallo (101:09)

Not that day. But that's the type of. I think that's what she was saying. They said he would knock your self esteem down. Not that day. And she said no, just chewing whatever. And that's the problem. So she's saying it's not that. No, it was just all the time. It was just this big macro thing of her feeling that. So that's about all she says. My ugly came out's about the last thing she says. And then she's arrested for first degree murder.

Jimmy Whisman (101:36)

My ugly came out. Okay.

James Petregallo (101:37)

My ugly came out.

Jimmy Whisman (101:38)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (101:39)

Wow. So she waves her right to the Extradition hearing and is extradited back to Tennessee. The girls are placed with Matthew's parents, Dan and Diane, and they're gonna be there for the next couple years. They're gonna stay with that.

Jimmy Whisman (101:51)

Oh, my God.

James Petregallo (101:53)

So there's further investigation. Now we're back in Tennessee. So now we actually have the cops who have been investigating this talking to her. This is Agent John Mayer from the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. He's the lead investigator on the case for the tbi. He interviews Mary again in Tennessee. Now, she gives a little bit different statement. She said, quote, I've gotten a call from the bank, and we were having troubles, mostly my fault, Bad bookkeeping. He was upset with me about that. He said he. She said he had really been on me lately, criticizing me for things. The way I walk, the way I eat, everything. It was just building up to a point. I was tired of it, I guess. I got to a point and snapped. And then oxygen was like, hold on, let me write that down. We're gonna put a show on for the next 40 years where it's just about women killing people. Okay. So she said, I don't remember getting the gun. The next thing I heard was a loud boom. Matthew was shot in the back as he lay in bed. He rolled from the bed onto the floor. He asked me, his last words were, why?

Jimmy Whisman (103:04)

Right.

James Petregallo (103:05)

And she said. I said, I'm sorry. I love you. And then he died.

Jimmy Whisman (103:11)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (103:11)

I got no answer. He said, why? And she said, I'm sorry. I love you. Wow. She said she even wiped blood away from his mouth.

Jimmy Whisman (103:19)

Really?

James Petregallo (103:19)

She felt bad. Yeah. Then she just took the girls and left and drove away.

Jimmy Whisman (103:24)

Went to have a happy day. One of our last ones ever.

James Petregallo (103:27)

That's it. And she took the gun with her, though, which is weird.

Jimmy Whisman (103:30)

Yeah, that is weird.

James Petregallo (103:31)

I don't know why you do that. I don't know if it was just. She just walked out with it like she was catatonic or what. She disconnected the phone. By the way, that's her. Just in case he was alive so he can't call for help.

Jimmy Whisman (103:43)

Oh, that's filthy.

James Petregallo (103:45)

Yeah. She doesn't have an answer of why she disconnected the phone. She just said she did it and that Matthew was still alive when she left. So they're wondering whether to charge her. Now, first, everyone's first degree murder when they're charged, but then they refine it a little bit here. So they're wondering, is first degree murder the best charged for this? The evidence they have is she retrieved the gun from the closet. She pointed at his back. She pulled the trigger. She shot him. She unplugged the phone so no help could be summoned. And then she fled the scene with the murder weapon and drove 340 miles away. That doesn't look good if you look at it from a statistical standpoint. So they go first. Degree murder. They indict her on if convicted. That's life in prison with a minimum of 51 years.

Jimmy Whisman (104:32)

God dang.

James Petregallo (104:34)

So that's a big one. She gets a couple of defense attorneys who are kind of hotshots in Memphis here. Steve Farisi Sr. And Leslie Balin, B A L L I N Ballin. They're very good lawyers. High profile, very good lawyers. Get a lot of people acquitted. They agree to represent Mary pro fucking bono.

Jimmy Whisman (104:57)

Really?

James Petregallo (104:58)

That's how big of a case this is at the time, they're like, it's better for us just to get the pub. So. And they said also they believed Mary is the victim here.

Jimmy Whisman (105:09)

They do.

James Petregallo (105:10)

That's what they believe.

Jimmy Whisman (105:11)

And we'll talk about that. They think over the. Over time, you can needle a woman down enough.

James Petregallo (105:15)

No, they say there's more.

Jimmy Whisman (105:18)

Oh.

James Petregallo (105:18)

That Mary didn't talk about because she was embarrassed in the police interview.

Jimmy Whisman (105:22)

Oh, right.

James Petregallo (105:23)

Which also makes sense because she does seem embarrassed to talk about anything in the police interview. She seems like she's normally. She's a pastor's wife and all that. She's normally very private.

Jimmy Whisman (105:33)

I feel like she's got no comment right now.

James Petregallo (105:35)

No, I just got no comment. So during the bond hearing, the defense argues that Mary's a victim of abuse of both verbal, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. And she snapped after years of torment. The shooting was an accident. The gun just went off. She didn't mean to kill him. The judge says $750,000 bail. The defense says it's excessive, calling it, quote, tantamount to no bond at all.

Jimmy Whisman (106:06)

750.

James Petregallo (106:06)

7 50. No, she doesn't have 750. So she sits there for a few months. Then on August 12, her father, Clark, mortgages his properties to pay her bond.

Jimmy Whisman (106:19)

Wow.

James Petregallo (106:20)

And bails her out of jail. So she is released from jail on August 12, 2006.

Jimmy Whisman (106:25)

Jesus.

James Petregallo (106:26)

Conditions are she has to live with friends of hers in McMinnville, Tennessee, who are Rudy and Kathy Thompson. Not allowed to leave the state. Can't contact the children without supervision. Okay, that's it. She gets a job at a dry cleaning shop while awaiting trial. Okay, someone. That's a. That's a tough interview. Well, I mean, I Have a murder trial coming up, but it's not for months. I mean, I got. I think I can work here a while. Here for the long haul. That's tough.

Jimmy Whisman (106:59)

I don't see myself in five years. Well, depends.

James Petregallo (107:02)

Geez, let's see.

Jimmy Whisman (107:03)

Depends on what this judge thinks.

James Petregallo (107:06)

I don't know. Maybe ged. Course, macrame. Yeah, he'll be making some shit. Possibly license plates. I don't know. Here. So she's doing that. It's the cleaners Express shop. The town of McMinnville is on her side. They all believe her. Her friends are there and stuff, and they all believe her. November 2006 cover of People fucking magazine.

Jimmy Whisman (107:33)

Stop it.

James Petregallo (107:34)

People magazine? What whole cover? Not a partial cover. It's a family photo of the five of them in front of the Christmas tree. And it said, why did she kill him? The minister shooting. They seem the perfect couple. Then cops say she shot her husband in the back. The story of Mary and Matthew Winkler. And there they are. So, big profile, very sympathetic to everybody involved. Photos of her looking very nice and not murdery. Crucifix, demure expressions and things like that. Her father and siblings give interviews as well. Oh, and this is where they're trying to really turn public sentiment to her side. Her father, Clark says, quote, physical, mental, verbal abuse. I don't know how she took it. She's a stronger individual than I am. Mary's sister Tabitha, said, I don't remember hearing her laugh. She was not a happy person. Okay. Another sister, Amanda, said, I saw a bruise on Mary. I didn't say anything because I didn't know how to. If I was to say, who gave that to you? That would make her, and that would make her mad, then I wouldn't see her again.

Jimmy Whisman (108:44)

Oh. So they're saying that he sucked all the joy out of her.

James Petregallo (108:47)

He sucked the joy out of her. And they saw bruises and things like that. And she was scared. So that's a. You know, that says like a campaign of.

Jimmy Whisman (108:54)

Sure, yeah.

James Petregallo (108:55)

Of abuse.

Jimmy Whisman (108:56)

Asserted effort to break down.

James Petregallo (108:58)

Yeah, yeah. Break down. Holding someone hostage almost, you know. So her defense attorney, Leslie Ballin, said, what went on behind their closed doors is going to have to be told. Some of what we've got from the state of Tennessee touches on sexual abuse. Good Morning America. Mary's family appears on Good Morning America. So they got out in front of this. The People magazine article is based from her point of view.

Jimmy Whisman (109:25)

Sure.

James Petregallo (109:25)

Good Morning America appearance is Mary's family. So it's interesting. Now they go further on Good Morning America. Mary's family appears there, and Clark Freeman says he saw bad bruises on her and the heaviest of makeup covering facial bruises. Friend Rudy Thompson, who she was staying with in McMinnville, said that she saw Mary with a black eye at church one Sunday. Another friend, Amy Redmond, said he was an authority figure and he made the decisions, basically. It was obvious. But Mary's father said. Mary always denied everything to her father's face, saying. And he said. She said, no, Daddy, everything's all right. Everything's all right. So they're definitely trying to get public sentiment on their side here.

Jimmy Whisman (110:14)

Sure. Yeah.

James Petregallo (110:15)

And she's doing a good job of it until New Year's Eve 2006, where that takes a slight step back.

Jimmy Whisman (110:20)

What happened?

James Petregallo (110:21)

Now she is spotted out at a bar in McMinnville Smoking and drinking and laughing, which.

Jimmy Whisman (110:28)

Oh, ma', am.

James Petregallo (110:30)

People gotta smoke and drink and laugh. But when you're on bail for out on bond for murder, and you're saying that you're so downtrodden and you're trying to turn the public sentiment, obviously, you can't just be downtrodden and feel like that 24 hours a day. You got to have a moment where something's fine. That happens.

Jimmy Whisman (110:47)

New Year, new me, it's coming up. We're about to switch over the calendar, and I'm gonna change this thing, turn.

James Petregallo (110:53)

It on, go to a funeral.

Jimmy Whisman (110:55)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (110:55)

I don't know. Maybe this is an Italian thing, but Italian funerals, afterwards, when we go back to the house and everybody eats and people are, like, playing cards and shooting dice and eating and sandwiches and shit. Eating salted, cured meats. Everybody's fucking laughing.

Jimmy Whisman (111:08)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (111:09)

No one's sitting there going, oh, such a. It's none of that shit. It's over now. Now we're laughing. We got guys with their dress shirts off, wife beaters on, fucking rolling dice and shit. It's a different scenario at that point.

Jimmy Whisman (111:19)

Well, that person's gone. Now we start over.

James Petregallo (111:22)

That's it. What are we gonna do? We went to the funeral. We were all sad. We stood there. The women yelled and cried. My grandmother tried to jump in the casket. They all did that. And now it's over. Have some prosciutto. Shut the fuck up.

Jimmy Whisman (111:32)

If I see a battered woman who fights back and shoots the guy, if she's not smiling after that, then why do it?

James Petregallo (111:41)

You know that's true, too.

Jimmy Whisman (111:43)

Well, yeah, if you're not jacked at, this shit's finally over, I guess.

James Petregallo (111:47)

Yeah, but that's not the act that's funny. But it's not the actual, like emotional, obviously. Yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy Whisman (111:52)

You shouldn't be out there just partying up. But it seems like, I don't know, it's possible.

James Petregallo (111:57)

It's been nine months.

Jimmy Whisman (111:58)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (111:58)

Also is the other thing. So it seems like you'd want to. If anyone needed stress relief, it'd be someone who's on bail for murder. But at the same time, if you're trying to make. If your whole goal here is to get the public on your side, this ain't it. Going out smoking, drinking and laughing on New Year's Eve isn't the way to do it at all. So a customer captures her on cell phone video and it airs on local tv. So that is not good for her. No, the public is pissed. People are pissed. People that were on her side are now against her. They said this is a grieving widow, that she's so sad, she's so abused and she's so traumatized she's got to go out. Yeah. People who are traumatized have a drink and laugh once in a while still. But anyway, she's out partying and doing all this. The defense calls it a one time thing, saying she's allowed to unwind. It was New Year's Eve. It wasn't a random Wednesday night. It was New Year's Eve. She's allowed to chill out. The prosecution doesn't think so so much here. So in Ann Rule's book, Smoke and Mirror, Smoke, Mirrors and Murders, that's what it's called. They say that Ms. Rule also briefly discussed the incident on New Year's Eve when Mary was photographed in a bar with a beer, holding a cigarette. The man who snapped the picture with a cell phone camera subsequently asked Mary, are you the preacher killer?

Jimmy Whisman (113:21)

Hey.

James Petregallo (113:23)

She laughed and said, yeah, you want to be next?

Jimmy Whisman (113:27)

Oh, boy.

James Petregallo (113:28)

Not good. That does not look good for you. Not look good. Making light of the situation is just. Publicly we get. Psychologically it makes sense, but publicly it looks terrible.

Jimmy Whisman (113:38)

Not good.

James Petregallo (113:39)

No. So now her probation officer, who's keeping track of her out on bond, said that she'd done everything she'd been required to. Sitting at a bar of a restaurant does not violate probation. There's nothing, no alcohol caveats in her probation or anything like that. So that's it. She's not supposed to kill anybody, I believe, or see her kids without. Whatever.

Jimmy Whisman (114:03)

That's a pretty good rule.

James Petregallo (114:05)

Another problem for her is that she also gets a boyfriend while she's out here.

Jimmy Whisman (114:10)

What?

James Petregallo (114:11)

Which again, people meet people and it goes on, but doesn't look great. If your whole case is based on public image, it doesn't look good. While she's working at the dry cleaner, she met the boss's brother. His name is Darrell Pillow. Darryl Pillow. So they start dating. Darryl Pillow said, I saw interest in Mary. And I thought Mary saw interest in me. Saw interest. I've never heard. Have you ever heard it put like that when someone met somebody?

Jimmy Whisman (114:41)

No. Expressed. I have never seen.

James Petregallo (114:43)

Saw interest. I was attracted to Mary. I mean, we do have a lot in common. We laugh, we got the same hobbies. It felt very normal. Felt like it was meant to be. He said the first time that we sat on the couch and I hugged her. She said, oh, this is. I've missed this. And that's what she needed. She needed somebody to hold her and hug her. So on weekday, on weekends, while Mary was in the mental health facility, later on, we'll talk about. Here they get closer and talked about marriage. And Darryl said, we kind of joked around about it, but it wasn't nothing serious. It's not like we set a date or anything. Maybe years down the road may happen, I don't know. But the options there.

Jimmy Whisman (115:25)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (115:26)

Now here is Mary talking about the abuse. Okay. At different things, different times. She said, he threatened me with the shotgun many times, putting it in my face. He told me if I ever talked back to him that he would cut me into a million pieces. Yeah. So she said that he just flail. He just flailed. He's a big guy and he was just all over. He'd point his finger inches away from my nose. Whatever he was upset about, it was my fault. She said he kicked her out of bed, punched her in the face, choked her, pushed her, and constantly criticized her as well. He said if I was fat, my hair wasn't right. The girls. If something went wrong, it was my fault. If it rained, it was my fault. I didn't know when it was coming ever. She said, weight, hair, long or short, family, friends, keeping up the house. Something about the girls, just very, very critical. He also. She also said that he. She said that he isolated her as well, saying, quote, he just sat me down and told me I was his wife and we were family now. And she also said that she needed his permission to get a haircut. Oh, come on, dude.

Jimmy Whisman (116:48)

Get a haircut.

James Petregallo (116:49)

Get a haircut. Some guys are real weird about their wife's hair, and I don't understand why. Who gives a shit? I don't fucking care what you do to your Head. Who cares?

Jimmy Whisman (116:56)

They're weird about it.

James Petregallo (116:58)

You're acting like. Yes. You know that there's tons of guys who are weird about their.

Jimmy Whisman (117:01)

But guys like. I mean, I can understand being weird about, like being attracted to something, but then you're in a relationship with someone and you tell them not to fuck with their hair.

James Petregallo (117:11)

Yeah, that's very common for controlling. Or. We've talked. We've maybe mentioned that a good 40 times over the course of the show.

Jimmy Whisman (117:16)

Yeah. But I don't understand it still if you're in the relationship already.

James Petregallo (117:21)

I don't get it. I know it exists. Yeah. I don't get it.

Jimmy Whisman (117:25)

I'll never understand that if you're not.

James Petregallo (117:27)

I don't get nuclear fission either, but I know it happens. Yeah. You know, like, if you're already in.

Jimmy Whisman (117:31)

A relationship with somebody, they've got a. They're gonna fucking change. You're gonna be upset when they fucking age too.

James Petregallo (117:37)

Yeah, well, he wants her to get the haircut. He wants her to get.

Jimmy Whisman (117:41)

Yeah. Does he have a choice?

James Petregallo (117:44)

Who fucking knows what weird. You know, whatever Eve had. You know what I mean?

Jimmy Whisman (117:50)

Like, that's, that's the point. It's like, what is the biblical choice that somebody.

James Petregallo (117:54)

That somebody want long hair? They want on women for the most part, those guys.

Jimmy Whisman (117:58)

There's also the fucking shoulder length bubble flip thing that is very common.

James Petregallo (118:03)

Yeah. So who knows?

Jimmy Whisman (118:05)

Just plain, I guess, is the answer.

James Petregallo (118:06)

Plain, I think, is what? Nothing that attracts attention, colors or any of that shit.

Jimmy Whisman (118:10)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Petregallo (118:11)

So Mary says also she asked for a divorce six or seven years into the marriage. She said that he asked, do you want a divorce? And she said yes. And he said, well, we can't get a divorce, so that's not happening. I'm the preacher. I can't get divorced. That'll fuck everything up.

Jimmy Whisman (118:25)

Yeah, that looks bad.

James Petregallo (118:27)

Then there's the sex stuff. Okay. Oh, oh, here we go.

Jimmy Whisman (118:32)

Now we get some more.

James Petregallo (118:33)

Oh, man. So she says that he forced her to wear outfits and shit in the bedroom. Okay. Platform heels. Big white platform heels, like stripper shoes. Big white ones, 8 inch tall. By the way, the heels are.

Jimmy Whisman (118:51)

Oh, it's gotta be a specific length, the highest ones.

James Petregallo (118:54)

An afro wig.

Jimmy Whisman (118:56)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (118:57)

So basically, like, he wants to fuck Foxy Brown is what he's trying to do. Like, he's like, yeah, PAM GRIER In 1977, if you could make yourself that, that'd be excellent. He saw Beyonce in Austin Powers. Yeah. While she was being Foxy Brown. Yes.

Jimmy Whisman (119:13)

Right.

James Petregallo (119:14)

Yeah, yeah. So that's interesting. So she also, she claims that he wanted her to watch pornography with him as well and forced her to engage in oral and anal sex. Well, the oral you should be engaging in fucking. You're married, Put your mouth on it. But if you don't want any in the butt, Completely understandable. Understood. Everybody should be licking each other, but in the butt, that's to each his own.

Jimmy Whisman (119:42)

Yeah. You know what though? I think if you need it in her ass, then you should be open to it in yours too.

James Petregallo (119:49)

There you go. If you need it. If she likes it, great.

Jimmy Whisman (119:52)

She needs it.

James Petregallo (119:53)

Yeah, throw it on in there. But if you're forcing it in there, that's crazy. It's a different story. So anyway, she called them unnatural acts, which don't call oral sex in marriage an unnatural act. Are you joking? Get the fuck out of here. That's crazy. I'm sorry, Mayor Bear, but yeah, that's. That's third base. Yeah, that's third fucking base.

Jimmy Whisman (120:20)

That's shy of actual.

James Petregallo (120:22)

That's not even a homer.

Jimmy Whisman (120:23)

Yeah, he's got a blow job, you loser.

James Petregallo (120:27)

Yeah, that's what kids consider anyway, third base.

Jimmy Whisman (120:30)

What does 16 year olds say to each other?

James Petregallo (120:32)

Whereas sex is a home run and anal is like champagne in the locker room afterwards. Right. Corks are popping. That's ain't it. Yeah, you won the series at that point. So here is a story that the cops kind of piece together, kind of with all accounts, because Patricia has a memory of this as well. So apparently baby Brianna woke up crying around 6:15. Mary claims that Matthew kicked her out of bed. Literally, she said, caught me somewhere in the low of my back. And I was on the floor, holy shit.

Jimmy Whisman (121:09)

With his foot.

James Petregallo (121:10)

Baby's crying and he's like, take care of that bitch. And kicked her out of bed, which is, wow, that's insane.

Jimmy Whisman (121:16)

Then come back here and blow me.

James Petregallo (121:18)

Okay, Blow me. But apparently Matthew then got up to try to comfort the baby, kicked her out of bed. While she's recovering from figuring that out. Then Mary took over and Matthew returned to bed. But he was all pissed off because in his mind, if the baby cries, that's Mary's job, do that, apparently. So Mary attends to Brianna. Then they went downstairs and started some coffee. Then she went back upstairs, went to the bedroom closet and grabbed the shotgun.

Jimmy Whisman (121:47)

Oh, that was the last moment.

James Petregallo (121:49)

Walked to the bed, pointed it at Matthew's back. His back was turned, never saw her coming with it. And shot him. 77 pellets of bird shot go through him, tear up all the organs and everything that's on the bed, he rolls onto the floor because he was on the bed. He was literally in bed when she did this. He says, why? She says, I'm sorry, I love you. Wipe blood from his mouth. Then Patricia came in the room and said, what was that? Big boom. There's a shotgun blast at 6:15 in the morning. When my dog barks at the Amazon Guy At 8:30, I'm like, what the fuck is that? Jesus Christ. God damn it. This is a shotgun. Yeah. Someone do something. But apparently Mary just told Patricia, daddy's hurt, we're leaving.

Jimmy Whisman (122:39)

Oh, we're leaving. He'll take care.

James Petregallo (122:40)

We're leaving. So now it's going to come down to. This is going to come down to Will. Who's the jury going to believe?

Jimmy Whisman (122:48)

I mean, science.

James Petregallo (122:48)

Well, they believe her.

Jimmy Whisman (122:50)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (122:51)

I mean the science is 100%. We know what happened. She. And she admitted she shot him in the back while he was laying in bed and he bled out. So that's definitely. She definitely committed the killing anyway. But will the jury believe her in terms of that he's been abusing her for years and that this was a moment of snapping from being abused for years and years in every way, shape and form possible. Which if it is, then the jury believes that, then it's understandable, you know. So basically there's no medical evidence of abuse is the problem.

Jimmy Whisman (123:28)

Right. There's also no medical evidence that it didn't happen.

James Petregallo (123:32)

No, there's none. So yeah, you can't prove a negative, obviously. So yeah, but there's no she from her side to claim that she was battered and everything else. She has to prove substance abuse, Prove the shoe abuse. Yeah, yeah. So there's no medical abuse, there's no police reports, never a hospital visit, none of that. Which obviously there's tons of abuse that goes on that does not get reported. And especially if you're in a position like a pastor and a pastor's wife, then your whole income is gone. That's almost like if you're a quarterback's wife.

Jimmy Whisman (124:01)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (124:03)

If he beats the shit out of you and you call the cops now he gets cut and you and your children lose millions of dollars too. So that's why a lot of women don't report it. Not that they should do that, but they don't because they go, well, fuck, that's all. Everything we have. So anyway, friends and church members, tons and tons of them, dozens and dozens describe Matthew as gentle and very nonviolent. And even nine year old daughter Patricia Will testify and has talked to the police and said she never saw her father mistreat her mother. Uh.

Jimmy Whisman (124:36)

Oh.

James Petregallo (124:36)

At all. No pushing, no yelling, no anything, which is tough.

Jimmy Whisman (124:41)

She took it out of the kids.

James Petregallo (124:43)

And a lot of people do that. They don't do it in front of the kids. You know, There's a lot of people.

Jimmy Whisman (124:48)

That do it in front of nobody.

James Petregallo (124:50)

That's what I mean. Which is even scarier because that means they can control it and then. And direct it. Times they think they can get away with it.

Jimmy Whisman (124:59)

Yeah. Also know the wrongness of it. If you're not exactly in front of anybody, you get shame about it.

James Petregallo (125:04)

Absolutely. It's fucking diabolical. So April 9, 2007 is the trial. Okay. This is a trial with the jury is 10 women and two men. Oh, and they did that. Exactly what the defense wanted. As many women on the jury as possible. Because one or two of them may have gone through this or even known someone who went through it or their mother went through it or their sister, some chick they knew in college. Every woman has heard many stories of this, whether it's personal or a friend or family member. And they know that. And that's smart. If you're a defense, that's what you're trying to do. So they asked potential jurors these questions. Can emotional abuse be as damaging as physical abuse, in your opinion? To get an idea where these jurors stood. Have you ever talked to someone who didn't listen? Which is a weird, interesting question. Have you ever wondered why someone would stay in an abusive relationship? Is another question. So that's what they asked. Here is more about the jury from the Ann rule book here. The jurors were chosen. The jurors chosen were a fair representation of the citizens of McNary County. They would be sequestered, although after so much publicity, it seemed a little like locking the barn door after the horses ran away. Yeah, they already have heard everything from everybody. Watch. They read People magazine and watch Good Morning America for Christ's sake. One potential juror was excused quickly when she said that the Winklers had been her neighbors and that Matthew had once threatened to kill her dog if it came in her yard again. They got that guy. Wow. That's funny. So that's a dismissal. So the defense attorney submitted a list of 444 potential witnesses, while the DA only listed 13 witnesses. A lot of them are the police that found her, the cops that arrested her, medical examiner, the child, all of that. So the woman on trial scarcely resembled the image of Mary Winkler at her arraignment 13 months earlier. Then she had seemed a timid child. Now she held her head up, carried a briefcase, and often strode into court ahead of Farisi and Balin. She had dozens of hours of therapy, received many, many letters of support from around the county. She was bolstered by her attorneys. So now she's confident walking in. Head up here. So now we'll talk about this a couple of things in the trial here during the opening, the prosecution opening. Walt Freeland is the prosecutor, characterized Mary as a cold blooded woman who had intentionally shot her husband in the back as he lay in bed early in the morning. He said she had deliberately unplugged the cord from their phone so that Matthew could not call for help after she left. He noted the financial catastrophe that was about to descend on the Winklers. Because Mary had been carrying out a check kiting scheme since November 2005, depositing phony checks in several bank accounts. He said the house of cards that she set up was falling down. The defense will not produce any evidence of any good reason. Matthew Winkler was murdered by Mary Winkler because there is no good reason. Okay. The defense, Steve Farisi's opening said, called the marriage a living hell behind closed doors.

Jimmy Whisman (128:26)

Oh.

James Petregallo (128:27)

He told jurors that Matthew's demands made Mary tiptoe on eggshells. And even then, everything she did seemed to displease him. The lawyer said he would destroy objects that she loved. He would isolate her from her family and he would abuse her. He would tell her that she couldn't eat lunch because she was too fat. Not only did she have to be perfect, her children had to be perfect, too. So this is from the pastor's wife by Diane Fanning, about the courtroom atmosphere on the first day. They say the gallery was packed with reporters from as far away as Japan and England. Imagine you're from Japan and you go to Selmer, Tennessee. You're like, where the fuck is this? Interesting cameras flashed the moment Mary Winkler entered. Wearing a simple white blouse and black slacks, her hair pulled back in a ponytail, she looked more like a Sunday school teacher than a woman accused of murdering her preacher husband. Which is exactly what they want her to look like. Yeah, that's what you're going for. Now, the prosecution's case is this shotgun, 12 age pump action, 12 gauge. Mary had to rack it to load it.

Jimmy Whisman (129:37)

Oh.

James Petregallo (129:37)

So he couldn't have just pulled it, couldn't have just got by accident. Got a racket. That's a deliberate action. 77 pellets of bird shots. Broke his spine, destroyed his organs. He bled out slowly by putting that. He unplugged phone from the wall jack so he couldn't call for help. Mary drove 340 miles taking the murder weapon. Paid with cash everywhere and made no phone calls. Clearly trying to hide, they said, the money. Nigerian scam. $5,000 overdrawn. Banks wanting answers. On March 22, Matthew shot just hours before they were supposed to go to the banks and have to put all this on the table. Wow. This is from Walt Freeland's opening here. The defendant put a 12 gauge shotgun to the back of a sleeping man, her husband, the father of her children, and pulled the trigger. Then she fled the state with those little girls while he bled to death on the bedroom floor. That, ladies and gentlemen, is not self defense. That is first degree murder.

Jimmy Whisman (130:40)

You bet.

James Petregallo (130:42)

The defense say, no, no, no. Battered woman who snapped. That's it. They said it's self defense. At the most it's manslaughter. But it sure as fuck isn't first degree murder. Mary lived in fear, isolation, sexual abuse, criticism, physical abuse. She tried to leave, but Matthew wouldn't let her, saying divorce was not allowed. And she was trapped. They say Matthew kicked her out of bed. She went to check on the baby. Matthew then tried to suffocate the baby by covering her mouth and nose to stop her from crying.

Jimmy Whisman (131:15)

Oh, no.

James Petregallo (131:15)

That's what the defense is claiming. She said that. They say Mary was terrified that he was going to kill the baby, so she took the baby, then retrieved the shotgun. Not to kill him, to, quote, force him to talk through their problems. Okay, let's talk about our issues. Yeah, let's talk, sweetie. Oh, okay. She said, though the gun went off accidentally and she panicked and fled.

Jimmy Whisman (131:44)

Totally in the midst of wanting to talk seriously. It went off.

James Petregallo (131:49)

It went off. Just. I don't know what. Yep. They said Mary Winkler did not wake up on March 22, 2006, and decide to kill the man she loved. She woke up and for one tragic moment, she could not take one more day of the abuse, the humiliation and the terror. All right, witnesses here. We got bank tellers testifying about the fraudulent checks from Mary, all signed by Mary, which she signs most of the checks. So that would. Even if Matthew knew about it. Because part of the defense is that Matthew knew about all of this stuff and was just involved in everything as she was in check kiting and all that kind of shit. They talk about the overdrawn account, the phone calls demanding we've called her. So Many times to say, you two have to come in. They get church members who testify Matthew was a good man and a good father and a good husband. Never violent, never angry, never abusive. Again, they wouldn't know that from where they are, but still they bring in Patricia, age 9, and they said, was your father a good father? And she says, yes, sir. Did he ever hurt your mother? No, sir. She describes the morning of the shooting, hearing a big boom, and ran into the bedroom and saw Daddy on the floor, groaning. And asked mommy, what happened? And she said, daddy's hurt. We're leaving. That's what the kid remembers while he's groaning, groaning.

Jimmy Whisman (133:11)

Oh, boy.

James Petregallo (133:12)

This poor kid saw her dad on the floor. That's rough, man. Uh, here are some. Now the defense witnesses. Here is from the Ann rule book. Quote, the prosecution had presented a woman who was about to be exposed for writing bad checks. A woman who had admitted to shooting her husband in the back before she ran away to another state. Steve Farisley and Leslie Ballen faced a formidable challenge as they would now try to rebuild Mary's side of the case. They presented a number of witnesses who vouched for Mary Winkler's positive image in the community and in her church community. And they set about demonizing Matthew. Okay. Which is what you gotta do.

Jimmy Whisman (133:52)

Yeah. That's fucked, though.

James Petregallo (133:54)

Dr. Lynn Zager, the forensic pathologist who went 41 sessions with Mary Winkler, testified for over two hours. If Mary herself should not take the stand. Zager had clearly committed her patient's life to memory almost from birth to the morning Matthew died.

Jimmy Whisman (134:11)

Wow.

James Petregallo (134:12)

The psychologist said she had diagnosed Mary with mild depression and Post Traumatic Stress syndrome. She traced the Post Traumatic Stress disorder back to the time that Mary's sister died suddenly from a heart attack. Yeah, the Freeman family.

Jimmy Whisman (134:27)

Was it a heart attack?

James Petregallo (134:29)

No, it was the drowning. But I don't know why they put it like that. But that's fine. Yeah, that's what she said in the book. And who knows, because we didn't know if she had Ms. Or MD or this. Nobody ever knew what the hell or palsy. We had no idea. So she said the Freeman family had no counseling at that time. Dr. Zagar felt Mary had carried the emotional burden ever after. Okay, that's fair. We've all had childhood traumas and tragedies and seen bad things. And although Matthew had controlled Mary, she tried to excuse his actions to Dr. Zager. They also said, so she was trying to make excuses for him. She often said that Matthew helped her to be better. He helped her to improve herself. He was concerned about her improving herself. This is what she said on the stand. Dr. Zager presented Mary Winkler as most vulnerable for domestic violence. A woman already psychologically damaged who'd been subjected to a decade of emotionally abusive treatment by her minister husband. The defense had come up with their scenario of Matthew's murder and now they padded out that skeletal structure with more and more witnesses. A Tennessee highway patrolman testified to his contact with Matthew and McMinnville when he'd visited his terminally ill grandfather, who was a neighbor of the Winklers. The trooper said Matthew had walked across the street and shouted about a dog that was keeping him awake. A different dog now.

Jimmy Whisman (135:55)

Oh, he hates dogs.

James Petregallo (135:58)

He fucking hate, which I don't trust him right there.

Jimmy Whisman (136:00)

Especially a barking ass dog. He cannot take it well.

James Petregallo (136:04)

This is a small barking dog that was keeping him awake. That's why I know it's a different dog. Because a Rottweiler will never be called a small dog, never be considered a small barking dog. No. So the patrolman said he'd heard about the minister's reputation as a bully and that the neighborhood had nicknamed him, quote, the Tasmanian Devil.

Jimmy Whisman (136:21)

Is that right?

James Petregallo (136:22)

Apparently he comes out swinging. He's crazy. Matthew's parents and siblings watched the proceedings. His brother Dan looked startlingly like Matthew, so much so that it was almost as if the victim himself was in the courtroom. All three of Winkler's sons, Jacob, Matthew and Daniel, were large men who had once been athletes. Diane Winkler, Mary's mother in law, was extremely poised, attractive and beautifully dressed. She must have been a daunting example for Mary to emulate during her 10 year marriage. While the Winklers had been somewhat supportive of Mary right after she was arrested, they no longer were. Now they're against her for sure. Asked about a time in McMinnville when Matthew had allegedly locked Mary out of their home, his father testified that on two occasions Matthew had had a bad reaction to medications he'd taken for a toothache and an upset stomach and became disoriented. Oh, that might explain such an occasion if it had even happened, really. But he said if it was, I'm sure it was one of the times Matthew took medication, had a bad reaction. So the only time he's ever been mean it was, you know, toothache, Ambesol gone wrong. You know how it goes. So Diane Winkler remembered one of his bizarre reactions to his medications. She said he had a hallucination. He saw a woman with black hair at the end of the hall coming at him with a Knife, she testified. What.

Jimmy Whisman (137:48)

What drugs are they giving him?

James Petregallo (137:50)

That's what I mean. Toothache drugs. Holy shit.

Jimmy Whisman (137:53)

Do they give him mushrooms for his toothache?

James Petregallo (137:55)

They give him fucking oxy LSD for his goddamn.

Jimmy Whisman (137:59)

This is unbelievable.

James Petregallo (138:00)

Wow. That's crazy.

Jimmy Whisman (138:01)

I've never had hallucinations from a drug for pain.

James Petregallo (138:05)

The only thing I've ever had hallucinations on are drugs I took to get hallucinations from mushrooms and acid. So anyway, they say that caused a gasp in the courtroom. An hour later, outside the justice center, townspeople wondered about the possibility of illegal drugs being involved. By the way, Matthew and his whole. No drugs of any kind in the system, not even ibuprofen, Just so we know here. They said Mary had suffered a black eye in McMinnville. But she had explained it away at the time, saying she'd been playing with the girls and been accidentally hit, possibly by an elbow. TBI Criminal investigator Howard Patterson and Phil Hampton, a forensic computer expert. Both testified about, quote, certain images retrieved from the Winklers computers. 263 images had been printed out. They didn't spell out what the images were, but we find out later they were pornograph. They were fucking naked women. Porn pictures, downloads of porn. Some stills, some videos. Oh, but definitely shit that no one thought was on Matthew's goddamn computer. Being Mr. Mr. Jesus and everything. The earth is 6,000 years old. But in that 6,000 years, we figured out how to make porn and video. So let's get it on, motherfucker.

Jimmy Whisman (139:22)

Yeah. Beaten.

James Petregallo (139:24)

Yeah. Back and forth, testimony and exhibits went. A church secretary at the Central Church of Christ in McMinnville who had worked there for 35 years. Testified that Matthew had been nice when he first came to her, to the church. But he began to treat others as lower than himself. She said that he soon began to give orders. Stepping out of bounds considerably. She told jurors that she had heard him speak to Mary angrily. And that he sometimes locked his wife and children in his office for 20 to 30 minutes. Why? Get in there and there you go.

Jimmy Whisman (139:59)

You stay in there for 28.

James Petregallo (140:01)

I'll be back for you in 20 minutes. That makes no sense. Okay? The only time I've heard of anybody locking their wife anywhere is Macho Man Savage locking Elizabeth up in dressing rooms during wrestling shows and shit. And he was a fucking psycho with that shit. So anyway, that's what she said. She said when she asked him why. He said it was, quote, to keep them safe. They're at church, they have to be locked in an office. What's going on out in church man. She also testified that he had made frivolous purchases on church accounts. Timothy Parish, a pulpit minister at the McMinnville church, took the stand to say that he felt the Winklers marriage was not as happy as his own. I mean, they seemed happy, but I always looked and said we're much happier.

Jimmy Whisman (140:48)

Bet I'm happier than them.

James Petregallo (140:49)

I bet my wife is better than his wife and I'm nicer to her than he is. Sometimes Mary seemed happy, but there was other times when she didn't seem very happy and when she seemed like she was trying to cause problems or something. So church secretary said that she had heard Matthew berating Mary, heard harsh words and anger. We got family and friends saying, black eyes, heavy makeup. Mary's cowering and isolated. Clark Freeman, the dad said, I saw terrible bruises. I could run at her. She denied it. Psychologist Lynn Zager again says that she suffers from mild depression and post traumatic stress disorder that started when her sister died when Mary was 13. I was right. I knew Mary was the one who was 13 and got worse from Matthew's abuse. She said it's a snowball effect from that. So yeah, she said that Mary told her that Matthew was verbally, emotionally, sexually and physically inappropriate to her at times. She also said that Mary accused Matthew of putting his hand over the nose of their one year old daughter to stop her from crying on that morning. And she said that Mary said that Matthew has done this to their two other children as well. Oh, I mean they'll stop crying before they die. Is that the. You better hope either way they're going to stop crying. Is that what you're doing there? That's crazy. She said also Mary could not form intent to commit a crime because of her compromised mental state. Oh, there you go. And then finally Mary testifies. Yeah, she has to. She has to. It's all based on her man. So if she gets up there and says what she needs to, then it'll help. So Mary testifies. She's very soft spoken, eyes downcast, very humble. Doesn't come off as. Yeah, that's right. None of that chin in the air bullshit. Like the Cassotis guy was up there. That Nicholas Cassotis we did a few weeks back, he was just acting like real confident about everything on the stand. None of that shit. She describes her marriage, she said he criticized her quote, weight, hair, long or short, family, friends, keeping up the house, something about the girls. Just very, very critical. She said, he just sat me down and told him that I was his wife and we were family. And we're going to cut off from the friends. He said, talk about physical abuse that we talked about. Kicked her, punched her in the face, threatened to cut her into a million pieces. She said, he threatened me with the shotgun many times. Put it in my face. And then she describes the sexual stuff.

Jimmy Whisman (143:27)

Here we go.

James Petregallo (143:28)

Which in a court in a small town in Tennessee is like, salacious. Yeah, It's a bomb going off. Like if you watch, you know, the Staircase trial.

Jimmy Whisman (143:37)

Oh, yeah.

James Petregallo (143:38)

Okay. If you watch the Staircase documentary and you see parts of the trial, they convict him almost entirely on the prosecutor freaking the jury out with sexual things. So that is something that's easily done in this part of the country. It's at some point, if you have dealing with very religious people who don't deal with outside of their circle, sexual stuff, very often they kind of get freaked out by shit. And anyway, she said, Mary describes Matthew forcing her to watch pornography, forcing her to engage in oral and anal sex. Called them unnatural acts. Then the defense attorney pulls out a bag.

Jimmy Whisman (144:23)

Here we go. What's in there?

James Petregallo (144:25)

And says, what's in that sack, Mary? And gives it to Mary. Mary pulls it out. It is the pair of white platform 8 inch stripper shoes and an Afro wig. She puts them on there. She puts them on? No, no, she puts them on the thing, places them. The jury has an audible gasp. Oh, my God, there they are. Because she was telling the truth about that. And they said, where'd you get that wig, Mary? And she said, from Matthew. And they said, why were those shoes bought, Mary? Matthew wanted me to wear them to dress up. And she said, dress up for what purpose, Mary? And she said, sex. And the jury was just, I mean, hands over their mouth, just horrified. One person said, when they brought out the shoe and the wig and put those on the witness stand, there was a gasp in the courtroom. It was just a moment in this case, I think, that everything turned at that point. So Mary said, he made me do things I didn't want to do. I tried to say, no, he'd just do it anyway. They said, did it hurt you? And she said, yes, sir. So she said that morning, Matthew started ranting about people, problems he was having and his personal feelings about the church administration. That's what she says on the stand now. It's not even about her. It's about work. I didn't know what set him off. I was just listening to him. He calmed down. We started the movie. I fell asleep. This is the night before he woke me up, we went to bed. I remember not sleeping well. Brianna woke up crying at 6:15. Matthew kicked me out of bed. Caught me somewhere in the low of my back, and I was on the floor. She tended to Brianna. Matthew got angry. Matthew tried to suffocate Brianna, covering her nose and mouth. She said, he didn't even want her. He wanted a son is what she said. She said she was terrified, took Brianna away from Matthew. Matthew went back to bed and she followed him. She said, I just wanted to talk to Matthew. I just wanted him to stop being so mean. She said, I just wanted to talk to him, though. I went to the bedroom closet and retrieved the shotgun because I wanted to force him to work through our problems. I just wanted him to stop being so mean. I didn't pull the trigger, but something went off. Okay. And she said, I heard a loud boom. She kept saying that on cross. The prosecutor says, you know that pulling that trigger is what makes it go boom, right?

Jimmy Whisman (146:59)

That's what did it. Yeah.

James Petregallo (147:00)

You've seen that. She said, yes, sir. They said, did you pull the trigger? And she said, no, sir. They said, did you intentionally kill your husband? No, sir. Did you love your husband? Yes, sir, I still love him.

Jimmy Whisman (147:12)

Oh.

James Petregallo (147:14)

Then she. He points out her discrepancies. He said, well, why'd you tell Alabama police that Matthew never abused you? Which is it? You've told several times, several different people he didn't abuse you. And several people he did. So which is it? Was he abusive or not? Mary says, I was ashamed. I didn't want anyone to know about Matthew. And they said, did your husband do anything for which he deserved to die? And she said, no, sir. Uh. Oh. She's saying it was an accident, so she can't say it was intentional. She. The abuse is to get. The abuse part is to get her holding a shotgun.

Jimmy Whisman (147:52)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (147:53)

And then her claim is she didn't shoot him on purpose. She took the shotgun because that was the only way they were gonna have a conversation that she wanted to have.

Jimmy Whisman (148:00)

Right.

James Petregallo (148:01)

That's what. That's what she was claiming. So. And then once she had the shotgun, it just went off accidentally, and then it's an accident. So in the closing arguments here, the prosecutor said he was brutally, premeditatedly and intentionally killed. Shot in the middle of the back as he slept. He did not deserve to die. Justice demands one verdict. Guilty of murder in the first degree. Okay. Defense. They both attorneys give a closing C. Ferisi says, unfortunately, Matthew Winkler couldn't practice what he was Preaching his problems were that of a bully. And what bullies do is they pick on people that are smaller than them. If you looked up spousal abuse in the dictionary, you're going to see a picture of Mary Winkler's face looking back at you. Leslie Ballin. I hate when they say look up in the dictionary. I don't know why. It's just so trite.

Jimmy Whisman (148:49)

Stupid.

James Petregallo (148:49)

Come up with something else.

Jimmy Whisman (148:50)

Why do people still say it?

James Petregallo (148:52)

It's such a cliche, especially in court. Now, Leslie Bolin says this is a case about two people who had a tumultuous marriage of some 10 years that ended in tragedy. There are no winners. We're left with the memory of Matthew Winkler. Even though there's been a lot of negative things said about him in this trial, there was a good side to him too. So they kind of play good cop, bad cop, the two lawyers, which is nice way to do that. Now the verdict goes out. There is eight hours of deliberation. Wow. Which is quite a bit. And then they reach a verdict. They bring her in. Now there is three options, or four options. I should say guilty of first degree murder.

Jimmy Whisman (149:32)

Sure.

James Petregallo (149:33)

Or I'm sorry. Because then there would be eight options. Okay. Seven and seven. So anyway, first degree murder, second degree murder. Guilty, not guilty. And voluntary manslaughter. Guilty, not guilty or just not guilty. So that's a total of seven outcomes here. So here we go. They find her guilty of voluntary manslaughter. Wow. Not first, not second. Voluntary manslaughter. Which means they believed that the gun just went off when she was pointing it at him. For this.

Jimmy Whisman (150:05)

And they believe all the other stuff.

James Petregallo (150:08)

Yep. Under Tennessee law, voluntary manslaughter is a crime of passion produced by adequate provocations sufficient to lead a reasonable person to act in an irrational manner.

Jimmy Whisman (150:19)

Okay.

James Petregallo (150:21)

So the defense's reaction to this? They're fucking thrilled. Yeah. This is a high profile people from Japan taking pictures of their victory. This is awesome for them.

Jimmy Whisman (150:30)

She's gonna get to see the light of day.

James Petregallo (150:32)

Oh, we'll talk about it. So Farisi said we were offered 35 years.

Jimmy Whisman (150:38)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (150:38)

Then we were offered 20 years. We were offered 15 years.

Jimmy Whisman (150:43)

Prosecution was nothing at all.

James Petregallo (150:44)

No. Now we're just looking at three to six years. Yep. My reaction is the verdict was probably just balance said, there's no winners. We're just left with the memory of Matthew. He said that again. So he said, this is a case about two people who had a tumultuous marriage of some 10 years that ended in tragedy. Nothing good about it.

Jimmy Whisman (151:06)

This is unbelievable.

James Petregallo (151:07)

But also high five because, come on, we just pulled off a magic trick.

Jimmy Whisman (151:10)

That's crazy.

James Petregallo (151:12)

Sentencing comes around now. Victim impact statements. They bring in Matthew's brother, who stands up in the stand and stares at Mary and said, I've watched as the life of my brother has been turned into a circus. I don't see any remorse in you. Matthew's mother gave a 30 minute long monologue, staring at Mary the whole time. 30 minutes, that is. That's a good set right there. It's more than a feature set. Like, that's a. She has got some minutes. She said, you broke your girl's hearts, Mary. You have destroyed your husband's character. You destroyed his good name. You've accused him of being a monster who abused and belittled you. The monster you have painted for the world to see. I don't think that monster existed. There's been no remorse from you. You've never told your girls you're sorry. Don't you think that you at least owe them that? You've never told us you're sorry. I think you at least owe us that. The girls are having nightmares. They fear people with guns breaking into their house. They're terrified. Don't you think you owe them an explanation? Now the defense has 10 witnesses testify on her behalf. Also tons of letters of recommendation. Church friends, family, friends, supporters. Tons of letters. And Mary reads a statement herself. Okay, Quote. Whatever sentence you give me can never punish me enough. I've suffered the loss of someone I loved. I've lost my freedom. I've lost my children. And I've had my life on public display. I think of Matthew every day. And the guilt. And I always miss and love him. I hope this situation sheds light on unhealthy relationships and that others will find the strength and have the courage to seek help before such a tragedy occurs again. The prosecutor argued for the maximum six years in jail. Defense attorney said probation should be fine for her. No jail time. So the judge says this, quote, this offense meets the state's legal definition of a violent, shocking and reprehensible act. However, in fashioning this sentence, the court has considered the seriousness of the offense, the jury's verdict and the testimony about allegations of abuse of this defendant. You, ma', am, may fuck off. Three years in prison.

Jimmy Whisman (153:28)

God damn.

James Petregallo (153:29)

How this breaks down is 210 days in prison custody. Minus 143 days already served, which is five months in jail awaiting trial before she got out. Minus 60 days to be served in a mental Health facility on the weekends instead of prison. Total time she does in jail is seven days. She does a week in jail and then gets out for the mental health stuff. That's it. And she's put on probation for the rest of her sentence as well. So then another two years on probation. That's that. The defense obviously pretty thrilled about this.

Jimmy Whisman (154:06)

They're jacked.

James Petregallo (154:08)

Yeah, over the moon here. Now the jury foreman is pissed off and he talks to the press about it. Oh, yeah, Bill Berry, the jury foreman, gives an interview to Court tv. He says, quote, I don't think justice was done. It's the times we're living in. People are getting away with murder today. If only there was a group of.

Jimmy Whisman (154:29)

People, people who could fucking stop that.

James Petregallo (154:31)

Only there was a specially assigned group of people set to really figure out the facts of these cases and. And make sure that doesn't happen.

Jimmy Whisman (154:41)

Stop it.

James Petregallo (154:41)

Yeah, if only. And if only someone was in charge of that group of people. Maybe a four person, possibly. Oh, yeah, that's this asshole. So he says the jury was unbalanced and unfair. He said it was 10 men and 10 women and two men. And they all ganged up on the two men is what he said. He said nine of the 10 women wanted to acquit Mary entirely, wanted her to walk free. They felt like he deserved what he got. They felt like she had already lived through enough prison with the life she lived and that it was justified. Is that right, Barry? And the other man. First of all, you have to. You have to give credit to the generosity of women in this way. There are 10 women and two men. And who's the foreman? A guy. They let him be the fucking foreman. They're like fine maid, probably. Yeah, you do it. So they said that they compromised on voluntary manslaughter. It was just a compromise verdict. He said we had to settle on something. I didn't want her to just walk. He says he didn't believe Mary's abuse claims, doubted the physical abuse, wasn't sure about the sexual abuse. And he thought the sentence if there was just gonna be manslaughter should have been the maximum six years. And he said he thinks she shouldn't get her daughters back as well. Now the public is split here. Public is split, really. Here is from the Tennessee and Tennesseean newspaper. Okay, here are some. This is from their. They asked readers to email in their thoughts. And here is what they got. Here's Susan Hines. I'm glad she was convicted in this case. Even if she was just threatening Matthew with The gun with no intention of harming him. She did not protect her children from the argument by locking the bedroom door. That's what she's pissed about. Their eight year old daughter came in moments after the shooting and this alone is unforgivable concerning her sentence. The jail she will sit in can never punish her like the jail she's had to live inside of herself. Her children are gone forever. Along with her husband and the secure life she's living. She made a choice that has and will continue to affect a great number of people in a horrific way, some for the rest of their lives. This is John Salier of Kentucky. Considering the vast documented sexual, physical and emotional abuse from her husband over many, many years, vast you can say. But there is no documentation of any of this. That's. You can't really put that word in there. True or not, Mary Winkler should be credited with time served, reunited with her children and allowed to make the best of her remaining life. Here is Terry Hill. Here's another example of a justice system that's biased. Had it been the other way around, Mary Winkler's husband would have received a first degree murder verdict. Well, we know that's true, but we also know that a wife couldn't be physically and sexually abusing her husband for years either. That'd be very difficult to do. So it's not an even flip on that one. It's definitely apples and oranges. But today all a woman has to do is claim mental, physical or sexual abuse and she'll get a lesser conviction and a possible acquittal. Just look at the Scott Peterson trial. The man was convicted and sentenced to death on 100% circumstantial evidence. That piece of pizza is enough for me. I think our justice system is broke, not broken. Broke. And women like Mary Winkler need some money, are helping break it. Patricia Lewis of Tennessee. This verdict is just. It was blatantly obvious Mary Winkler was a woman who'd been battered emotionally. Her continence radiated abuse. I am a health care professional and without exception, all of my peers, one of whom was married to an abusive, dominating minister of the gospel, agreed that this man was duplicitous, controlling and demeaning. There are no winners here, but hopefully she can be reunited with her children. And then finally, Gary. I cannot believe Mary Winkler got off with a slap on the wrist for shooting her husband in the back while he slept. What is wrong in this country? No wonder murderers run rampant when there's no justice for real victims. The murder rate is so far down Shut up. Even back then, it was so far down. If her crime is excused away because of alleged circumstances. Wow. You just. Alleged circumstances, Ed. A lot. Why isn't Matthew's alleged behavior excused? If the alleged abuse did occur, where's the psychologist to explain away his behavior? Yeah, okay. That's an interesting devil's advocate type of deal there. August 14, 2007, Mary is released from.

Jimmy Whisman (159:20)

Oh, my God.

James Petregallo (159:23)

That is very quickly, very quick. She returns to McMinnville, goes back to her friends, the Thompsons, and actually goes back to work at the dry cleaning shop. Wow. Like. Well, sorry I had to take a little leave there. Sabbatical.

Jimmy Whisman (159:37)

So I was gone for a week.

James Petregallo (159:39)

Little murder, jail, mental institution, sabbatical. You know how that goes.

Jimmy Whisman (159:43)

Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

James Petregallo (159:45)

She's told by the lawyer she'll go back to work real soon. The community completely welcomes her, supports her 100%. Everybody is good. By the way, remember her relationship with Daryl Darrell Pillow? After Mary was released, she ended things with Daryl Pillow. She saw him all through the time when she was in jail, though, Darryl said, quote, she just said, darryl, I've gotta be single right now. And I said, that's fine. She needs to be focused on her children. And that's where she's at right now. All right, Daryl. At least Darryl seems like a decent guy. Then there's a custody battle. Since her arrest, her daughters have been living with Dan and Diane Winkler. And the Winklers want to keep the kids permanently. They don't think that the mother should get the kids back after the mother killed their father.

Jimmy Whisman (160:31)

I kind of agree.

James Petregallo (160:32)

So there's a file to terminate Mary's parental rights and adopt the girls. Their argument is Mary killed their father. She's unstable, she lied to the girls about what happened, and the girls are fucking terrified of her and all that shit. That's what they say. They also file a $2 million wrongful death lawsuit against Mary as well.

Jimmy Whisman (160:50)

Okay.

James Petregallo (160:50)

That's the other thing you can say it's voluntary manslaughter all you want. If it's a wrongful death, which manslaughter is wrongful, then you can win money. So Mary fights back, wanting her daughters back. Her argument is she's the victim of abuse, she's undergone mental health treatment, she's completely rehabilitated, and children need their mother, which are also strong arguments. So the case goes to court in Jackson, Tennessee. Psychologists evaluate Mary, the children, the parents, the situation, the house, the battle drags on for over a fucking year.

Jimmy Whisman (161:24)

Wow.

James Petregallo (161:25)

In the meantime, September 2007. The month after she gets out of jail, Mary appears on Oprah. What?

Jimmy Whisman (161:34)

Oprah? What are you doing?

James Petregallo (161:35)

She's on Oprah, the Oprah Winfrey show, which is her first major interview. This is September 12, 2007. Yes, I'll read. This is from the Ann rule book here. Mary hadn't been out of the mental health facility even four weeks when a startling announcement came from the Oprah Winfrey Show. As Oprah's new fall season began, Mary was slated to be one of the first week's guests. So she's like a kickoff the week, too. That and sweeps week are the big ones. So whether Reverend Daniel Winkler and his wife Diane would join the show was a question. But in the end, they declined. It was only Mary who met with Oprah, and she was not a live guest on camera, but an image on film as she met privately with Oprah Sometime before September 12, date the show aired. She wasn't out in front of the audience. It was a. Here's the interview I did with her, and they show footage of it here. So this was probably one of the oddest interviews Oprah has ever conducted, even though she has questioned thousands of people, from movie stars to criminals. Having been on the set with Oprah when she talked to Diane Downs, who was with us BY satellite in 1985, I believe that was the last time I've seen Oprah so bemused by her subjects. Mary was in her own world, and she didn't let Oprah in. Diane Downs, convicted of shooting her three young children two years earlier, denied that she had done so. And her affect was so animated and inappropriately cheerful. She actually enjoyed her moment in the spotlight on Oprah. Mary. Yeah, that's a weird. Interview her on Oprah's. Fucking weird dude. It's so weird. I mean, Diane Downs interview. Everything Diane Downs did was fucking weird.

Jimmy Whisman (163:15)

Diane Downs is just very weird. She's out of prison, too, isn't she?

James Petregallo (163:19)

Oh, I don't remember. I sure shit hope not.

Jimmy Whisman (163:22)

God damn it.

James Petregallo (163:23)

She killed her kids. There's no excuse for that. You can't. They didn't abuse her. You can't say my kids abused me. They put it in my ass. No. So Mary Winkler, having admitted shooting her husband, was certainly not animated and seemed hesitant to speak at all. Although it could not be more different, her affect was just as peculiar as Diane's. Many times during their conversation with Oprah did a subdued double take as she could not believe what she'd just heard. And she did her best to coax Some kind of response out of Mariany kind of response. Mary dressed much like she had during the trial. A white cardigan jacket cut like a sweater, cut like the sweater she wore when she testified. Her haircut was the same and her shy expression, the head ducking pose were almost identical to those shown on news clips during her murder trial. On Oprah's show, however, Mary rarely if ever met Oprah's eyes, instead gazing off to the left, which is weird. It was almost as if she existed in another dimension. And the questions, however gently probing, never quite penetrated an invisible wall that she had built around herself from time to time. Her response was only a quiet hmm and was almost cheerful in an absent minded way. For instance, when she had just mentioned how Matthew had suffocated their baby to put her to sleep, Oprah followed up with something like, what did he do? Like, holy shit. Her tone reflecting shock, Mary only, mm, yeah. Yes. Matthew often suffocated their children and she'd been powerless to stop him. Never looking into Oprah's eyes, Mary explained that she'd been terrified of Matthew that morning, but at the same time she just wanted to talk to him. She said, I wanted him to be happy, to stop being mean, just to enjoy life and tell him he didn't have to be so miserable. And Oprah said, have you ever said that to him before? And Mary said, he would have never. He never would have allowed me to say that. Some of Mary's recitation of the facts, that of the morning of the shooting tracked with the version presented by the defense at her trial. But others were slightly changed by now.

Jimmy Whisman (165:30)

Oh, she's got a new event now.

James Petregallo (165:33)

She recalled. Matthew had been sitting on the bed months ago. She said she he had gone back to bed and was laying down. Yeah, it's a very different. Those are very different things. Yeah, she said, quote, I just wanted to talk to Matthew. She explained to Oprah. And then there was that awful sound. Then she quote. She hurried to a safer subject, but Oprah tugged her back, asking her to explain what that meant. Mary could not bring herself to say the words gunshot or shotgun shells. She explained that she never in a million years would have thought there was something in there, meaning both shotgun shells. He always took it out. She meant the shotgun shells, but she couldn't say the words. Oprah was like during anal or what are you talking about? Oh, this.

Jimmy Whisman (166:17)

Where'd he take it?

James Petregallo (166:18)

She showed no emotion at all as she explained that she thought something had hit the ceiling or one of the windows. Instinctively, she had run away and then realized Matthew wasn't chasing her. Asked where the girls were at that time, she answered Oprah in a peculiar way. I want to say they were watching tv. It was, yeah, but it was early in the morning and the girls were either in bed or sitting out in the hall as Patricia had testified, frightened about what was happening in their parents room. Mary said, I still ask myself what in the world happened. She had a vague memory of Matthew laying there, but he didn't say anything. She had wiped his mouth because there was blood coming from it and it just kept coming and coming. But she couldn't see anything wrong with him and couldn't understand why he was bleeding, she claims. And now it was akin to shade coming down over Mary's eyes, although they were still open. Almost to herself, she spoke of how people's appearances can change in a matter of seconds. She meant as they died, but she could not say that. She couldn't say that either. She said, it's just terrible. Describing how dead faces change, she said, I just took off. We ran away. We didn't go to his parents because they were on vacation. I was going to Memphis. But then she had been aware that she was headed toward Mississippi instead. In the same breath that she described her fear of her husband, she said with as much feeling. With as much feeling as she had mustered so far, I do love him. I do love Matthew. She told Oprah she could not imagine life without him. She said just before something very bad happened, Mary felt like her life was in danger. But now she's better. She said she was only beginning to find out who she really was, Describing how frightened she had once been because she broke the sun visor on her car and had been afraid to tell Matthew, God, that sucks. Now she told Oprah that she had. Now she saw that it had been her car and that she shouldn't have been afraid over a broken visor. That's my car. If I want to break it, I'll break it. When Oprah asked about the financial crisis that came out after she bounced some checks in the computer scam aftermath, Mary said she wasn't even upset about it. She said she had nothing to do with it. It was all Matthew's idea, which in the beginning she said she didn't want him to find out. She said it was all his idea. Yeah, she said yes, she paid the bills and balanced the checkbook. But it was Matthew who participated in the Nigerian bank scam. She told Oprah she wasn't angry or he wasn't angry with her because it was his doing. She knew virtually nothing about the bank problem, she said that jarred with almost everything in the courtroom. Testimony about Mary's frantic efforts to hide the check kiting. There was witnesses talking about her opening other accounts and trying to get ones with him. She's not telling the truth there. And still she might have been trying to do that for the family, but she can't say she didn't know about it.

Jimmy Whisman (169:14)

Right? She was very well aware she was at the.

James Petregallo (169:17)

She could say, Matthew fucked up and I tried to fix it, but you can't say I didn't know it was happening. That's crazy. And she still seemed unable to explain what she was afraid of. The morning Matthew died. Possibly the most painful parts of Oprah's interview with Mary Winkler were the questions about the couple's sex life. During her testimony, Mary had been terribly embarrassed about Matthew's insistence on anal sex, but hadn't been disturbed by references to oral sex. Okay, so she'll throw down. That's fine. Now she included both in her litany of sexual abuse. At Matthew's hands, she waffled about whether he had struck her physically. Now she was with Oprah. She wasn't saying, he beat me all the time. A doubter might say that. Mary's excruciatingly long pauses after Oprah's asked asked a question came out, came about because she was trying to remember what she had said earlier. As Marion film spoke, her attorneys Leslie Ballen and Steve Farisi were in Oprah's alive. In Oprah's audience, Farisi sister was handling Mary's legal struggle to win back the custody of her three daughters. Will that happen? Should it happen? This is a question almost as difficult to answer as the one about her possible motivation for shooting. So Oprah said, tell me why you wanted to have this conversation today. Why did you want to talk to me? Which I'm sure she didn't call Oprah probably.

Jimmy Whisman (170:33)

What do you think?

James Petregallo (170:33)

Well, maybe the lawyers did. Yeah. Mary said, up to this point, up to my life at this point. She has weird syntax. Up to my life at this point. I can't have done all this in vain. I cannot sit back if there's anything I could do to help somebody else. That's my goal at this time. Oprah says, how soon after you married him did the problem start? She said, I would say two, three months. Just being shocked at the yelling in this different person. What surprised you the most? Mary said, the things he would say just one day he may encourage me to be with my family. Then another day he might say, we're never talking to them again. Right? They say, were there other examples of him being enraged? And Mary said, with the rage. Again with the rage against you? Just a certain thing. See, I can tell you one thing. What was the reason to begin anything? It's just. It just if some. Something upset him, if he's having a bad day, then that's all that. Then that was just all there was about it. God, that is hard to read.

Jimmy Whisman (171:39)

Some weird ways of speaking.

James Petregallo (171:41)

The words are like you jumbled up fucking Scrabble tiles and then just picked random ones. You know what I mean?

Jimmy Whisman (171:48)

Spit it out there.

James Petregallo (171:49)

It's hard to. Hard to read. Oprah asked about the sex and said, you know, things you considered unnatural. She said, anal sex, oral sex. He made me watch pornography. He made me wear those shoes in that wig. Did you ever try to say to him, I'm not doing this? She said, at that moment, no. But when we were not in the heat of the moment, I would say, I don't like that. Let's not. And he'd say, okay. Then he would get going. And that was just that. Oprah said, so when you got to the closet and got the shotgun because you wanted to talk to him? And she said, I just wanted to talk to Matthew. I was so afraid of him. Oprah said, but why the shotgun?

Jimmy Whisman (172:25)

Right?

James Petregallo (172:26)

And Mary said, I can't tell you an actual memory of a thought, but today when I think back, it's just being so afraid. I don't think if it was. I don't think if it was to intimidate him or just to get his attention. Oprah says, help me understand. You went to the closet, got the gun, and then what? And Mary said, I remember holding the shotgun, hearing the boom, and then a smell. He asked me why, and I just said I was sorry. Do you remember pulling the trigger? No. Oprah says, that doesn't make sense to me. And I imagine it doesn't make sense to you either. And Mary says, I know, I know. Rather than, yes, you're right. So it's real weird. They said, why do you think you should have your children back? And Mary says, I'm your mother or I'm their mother. And Oprah says, you killed their father. And Mary says, I did not want any of this to happen. And Oprah said, do you think you served enough time for this crime? And she said, there's no amount of time. I think you can put something like you can put on something like this?

Jimmy Whisman (173:28)

No.

James Petregallo (173:28)

I was just ready for them to lock the door and throw away the key. So. August 2008. After a prolonged year long rattle over custody. Mary wins full custody of her three daughters.

Jimmy Whisman (173:41)

Get the fuck out of here.

James Petregallo (173:43)

Nope. She picked them up on a Friday in August.

Jimmy Whisman (173:46)

Wow.

James Petregallo (173:47)

Her attorney said she was absolutely overjoyed. The girls will live with her near McMinnville. The Winklers will retain visitation rights.

Jimmy Whisman (173:54)

I cannot believe it.

James Petregallo (173:56)

Those are some uncomfortable kid exchanges there. Boy. Wow. Holy shit. 2010, Mary is diagnosed with MS, multiple sclerosis, which my stepfather has that. It's terrible. She said, I've read everything I can get my hands on. Experienced it and it's just the strangest disease. I don't fully understand it. Yeah. She sat down and she said where we rent. The man who bought this property, he bought it for the eight acres for the field. And so there's certain places where the fence is down and the girls will just get out there and will run and enjoy. That sounds like she's got three golden labs or something. They just run in the field and come back and tires them right out. They just curl up by my feet while I'm on the couch and they're just passed right out. She says that she tried to make life as normal as possible. But she started having trouble with her hands and feet. She said it was such a scary time. At one point we thought I had had a stroke just because the disabilities were on the right side of my body. But upon further testing. Because that's not something you go to the emergency room to find out you have Ms. But when you have such an exasperation. It came to that point. So they diagnosed her with that. She said I had just been accepted into nursing school that last fall. And then with the ms, I talked to my physical therapist and my occupational therapist. And the problem? She said nursing would not be an occupation to go into because I'm on my feet so much. And also they have to like lift people and you gotta be strong to be a nurse.

Jimmy Whisman (175:27)

It's tough stuff. Yeah.

James Petregallo (175:29)

So she returned here and wow. Forced to take time to care for herself. She had to give the kids back to the in laws a little bit. She said when I had the exasperation with my ms, it was a real hard time. The Winklers were wonderful because the girls had gone for a weekend visit and that turned into three months. And so the Winklers were just right there for the girls and took great care of them. She said she's getting Used to opening pill bottles and giving herself shots. She said it's a safety thing where you have to actually push two things to make it open. Honey, I can't hardly do that with two good hands. She said my right hand and right foot were just completely disabled. I could not use them. Sometimes with ms, whatever you experience may be permanent. You just don't know. So I was very fortunate that I'd been able to come back to full capacity. She said she's also fortunate and thankful for her friends. And she said, I'm doing really good, appreciating all the, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She said, whatever reason people have any problem with me, that's fine. Everybody's entitled to their opinion. But these girls are treated for who they are. Not because of what their mother's done, but because they themselves are unique. They're three very fine young ladies. Just her, just the way she puts sentences together has improved so much since then. Think about in the Oprah interview when you can't even read it because those words don't go in the right order.

Jimmy Whisman (176:59)

Is that from the ms?

James Petregallo (177:01)

I don't know if this is from that or if this is her. She's mentally more clear now or what it is, but so what really happened? Let's what the fuck, Mary? Team Mary says abused, snapped, accident or self defense, deserves a second chance. The other side, no evidence of abuse, no medical records, police records. She killed him over money, which doesn't make sense because she's not like she got anything that doesn't make sense. The shooting. She racked the shotgun, unplugged the phone, drove away. There you go. So it's weird because this is not a male, female thing, the way it's breaking down. It's not a man, woman thing because Oprah is clearly not on her side, right? And Oprah was for a long time considered the queen of all women. You know what I mean?

Jimmy Whisman (177:48)

Yeah.

James Petregallo (177:48)

She's literally their leader forever. And she didn't buy it. And Ann Rule, who is Ann Rule, does not like her if you read this fucking book.

Jimmy Whisman (177:58)

And Rule, she's not happy about her.

James Petregallo (177:59)

Does not like this Mary at all. But how the fuck do we know, you know what I mean? And also, I hate to say it because I'm not in this world and people get pissed off at me for saying this because I'm not in this world. But the image, consciousness, and the whole thing of being a pastor is such a fucking mind. Fucking mind as far as that goes, the image and this and that. And so, I mean, like, I, I, I tend to believe when someone says behind closed doors someone's doing like this, I tend to believe it.

Jimmy Whisman (178:33)

How do you say no?

James Petregallo (178:34)

Because it makes sense to me. So I got to kind of believe. I believe her, but at the same time I'm like, yeah, but then why'd you say it? Like, why'd you do it like you did it? Why'd you have the kids there like you couldn't wait? It's just a str. I don't know what happened. It's the strangest thing in the world.

Jimmy Whisman (178:49)

I feel bad. I feel bad for him too, because that's fucked up.

James Petregallo (178:54)

I feel bad for these kids. I mean, it sucks, man. So 20, 23, Matt's dad gives a sermon. Oh, yes. And in his sermon, he said, 18 years ago, trauma knocked on the front door of our house and we lost a son. I live with that emptiness all the time. And it's been almost two decades, but I remember the sound of his voice. And every time we sit down at a Christmas table as a family, there's an empty place for him. 20, 25, Mary is asked for an interview by ABC News. Oh, this is this year, she said, We've moved on. I'm busy taking care of my three daughters.

Jimmy Whisman (179:32)

I don't want to talk 20 something.

James Petregallo (179:36)

Oh, 26, 24, and 19.

Jimmy Whisman (179:39)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're full adults.

James Petregallo (179:43)

One just got, like, indicted for mail fraud for a MLM scam. No, that didn't happen. But I mean, Jesus Christ, they've stayed out of the public eye. No interviews, no social media presence pretty much since 2010 when she gave that Ms. Interview, she's shut the fuck up and stayed out of everything. The town remembers it this way. This is what a local said. This is awesome. Quote, until the Cars for Kids accident, this was the biggest thing that ever happened here. Jesus Christ. Now you know why we had to cover cars for kids.

Jimmy Whisman (180:16)

That guy plowed over six kids.

James Petregallo (180:18)

Remember that? So there you go, everybody. That is Selmer, Tennessee. We'll get through the end real quick here. That's Selmer, Tennessee. Hope you liked it. If you liked that story. First of all, we don't know what the fuck happened, number one. So don't yell at us for thinking one thing or the other because we.

Jimmy Whisman (180:33)

Have no thoughts on this.

James Petregallo (180:34)

I don't know. She did something we don't know. So anyway, if you're listening, give us five stars on whatever app you're listening on. It really does help drive the show up the charts. So thank you for doing that. You can also follow us on social media, all over the place. On Instagram, Smalltown murder. On Facebook, Smalltown pod, you do that there. Follow all of that. You can email us, you can do whatever the hell you want, but definitely get yourself Patreon. That is the thing you're gonna want. Patreon, anybody. $5 a month or above. A cup of coffee it is. You're gonna get so much. Hundreds of bonus episodes immediately upon subscription. You can binge that you've never heard before. Then every other week you get new ones that come out. One crime in sports and one small town murder. And you get it all. You get all, everything we got here this week for crime and sports. This is very interesting. You definitely don't have to like sports for this. We're gonna talk about dead bicyclists, we're gonna talk about crazy cycling accidents that have happened and all sorts of dead people. It makes NASCAR look like the safest thing in the world. It's crazy. And then for small town murder, it's Charles Starkweather time. We're gonna talk about this guy who went on a killing spree of 11 people and said no, it was really a 13 year old girl that forced me to do it. She's tough, man, she's tough. So there you go. Do that. That is patreon.com crimeinsports and in addition to all the bonus material that you get that's worth five bucks alone, you're also going to get on top of all that, you're gonna get all the shows we do ad free as well. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. Jimmy, line them up. Hit me with the names of the people who love us so much but don't mind having their name mispronounced. Hit me with them right now. Lay them down.

Jimmy Whisman (182:14)

This is executive producer Rachel. No, that's Rachelle Gentner. Kyle Norweg in the uk. He's gonna come to the DC show.

James Petregallo (182:21)

Wow. See you there.

Jimmy Whisman (182:22)

Gary Howard. Happy birthday. Hey.

James Petregallo (182:25)

Happy birthday.

Jimmy Whisman (182:26)

Align.

James Petregallo (182:26)

Yeah.

Jimmy Whisman (182:31)

Don't look at me. Aaron and Saul. Angela Golart. Happy birthday. Katie Houghton. Houghton. Happy birthday. They're coming to Philly. Happy birthday. Katie and her husband are from the UK also, I believe.

James Petregallo (182:45)

Wow.

Jimmy Whisman (182:46)

Yeah, it's amazing. People talk to you across the ocean to come see our dumb. That's fun.

James Petregallo (182:50)

Thank you. That's always. That always blows my mind.

Jimmy Whisman (182:53)

Jamie Mutts, maybe Moots. Julie Martinez, Robin Balda. Joe Welch lost his mom and he went to Tortilla. Flats, James and.

James Petregallo (183:04)

Sorry about that.

Jimmy Whisman (183:05)

Spread her ashes. That's nice.

James Petregallo (183:06)

Oh, that's nice. Okay. He was doing it for a reason stuff.

Jimmy Whisman (183:08)

Yeah. Liz Vasquez. Other producers this week. Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows. Happy hour. Fishing on the blue bayou of Low Feet, Louisiana. Where's Lafitte? Lafitte? Lafite. It's probably Lafitte.

James Petregallo (183:22)

Lafitte, Yeah. I would assume, like the wine, because that's. Lafitte is a French wine, so everything in New Orleans is French. That makes sense.

Jimmy Whisman (183:29)

Ryan Bender, Janice Hill, Mima Teresa Rubino, Pazia Kennedy. She put her name Teresa in quotes. I think Memaw is the quotable part.

James Petregallo (183:39)

We'll call you Meemaw if you want.

Jimmy Whisman (183:41)

Pazia. Pazia paisia Kennedy. Frannie McIntyre, Rainbow Preston. Valley girl. Chris with no last name. Dahlia Grayson. Paleo. Jen Bean with no last name. Corelium Locus, I think. Carolium, I don't know. Lindy Peterson, Jeff Moore.

James Petregallo (183:58)

Made out of Carilium locust. It's impenetrable.

Jimmy Whisman (184:03)

Adam Houston, Ariel Marquette, Marque Morgan Casey, Tina Amaya. Susan Walsh, Luke Quigley, Scott vp, Stanley Daly, Crystal with no last name. Tessa Rivers, George Silawash, Silo Wash. Teresa De la Torre, Natalie Rich, Jesse with no last name. Dylan Cook, Carl the Fifth. Justin Olson. Kyle Stubbs, Sarah Ash, Luna Pazdek. Vanessa Jenkins, Robin Wall, Stacy Hafner. Dale with no last name Jack with no Last name Peanut Butterfly 75. Chris Daniel Tyler. Pac Man Bates with no last name Renee Near. Near Garten. Oh, boy. Alex Smith, Jess Kennedy, Diggy with no last name. Dana Ellison. Probably resigned to just listening to podcasts at this point in his life. Pleasure to have you, Alex. It's been a long time. We barely knew you.

James Petregallo (184:59)

Sorry to offend your Mormon sensibilities, but.

Jimmy Whisman (185:02)

Dana Ellison, Astrid AKA Sastrid. Love you, James. Evidently you have to say that back now. There it is. Katherine Nichols. Emily Patterson Kane. Depeche Girl. Elizabeth Hill, Cameron K, Robbie W1, RCP Pitts. I don't know what that is. Seth with no last name. Susan Grant, Jessica Williams, Jamie Janway. Alyssa with no last name Hammer Andronicus. Todd Smith. Justin with no last name. A.J. borkman Burke. Probably William the Wicked. J if Tiger. Kristen Grimes. Speedcore Dave Megan Beasley, Krista Jackson. Speedcore.

James Petregallo (185:44)

Not hardcore.

Jimmy Whisman (185:45)

How fucking badass he is. Krista Jackson, Peter Carmichael. BBQ Beans, Shelly Fane, Anthony Fernandez, Kimberly Strebler, Chris Stevens, Philip Dion Mitchell. Nope, that's Michelle G. There was also Michelle B. That was in porn. That's probably not the same person.

James Petregallo (186:03)

It could be Brendan.

Jimmy Whisman (186:06)

Brendan Kadrowski. Chris Bedard. Vettered.

James Petregallo (186:10)

I love it.

Jimmy Whisman (186:11)

Charles Meek. Charles Meek said that? Natalie Crespo. Trevor Gordon. Alice Crawford, Eric Fowler, Chris Haas, Morgan o'. Shea. Alyssa D. Bad Mofo Inc. James.

James Petregallo (186:25)

They own company. That's good to know.

Jimmy Whisman (186:28)

Danielle Deadline.

James Petregallo (186:29)

You know.

Jimmy Whisman (186:31)

Bread Savoya. John Perry can write all that bad motherfucker off. Gabriel Stansfield. Don Harmer. Yeah, yeah. Marlowe's kid. Jessica Coburn. Chastity. Chastity. Not Chastity. Oh, Chastity Drawdy. They fucked your name up. Chastity. It's supposed to be Chastity.

James Petregallo (186:53)

We're sorry your parents did that to you.

Jimmy Whisman (186:54)

They missed a T. Sarah Young, Johnny Diaz. Lindsey Boyd. Rebecca with no last name. Mark with no last name. Chris Carr. Eric McMahon. Flapjack short stacks. Annie Nair. Jill Hanglin. Oh, we're getting that Nair money.

James Petregallo (187:08)

CG Finally.

Jimmy Whisman (187:09)

C. Green, 91Rd. Zepp 3. Jacob with no last name. Katie Olsen. Herman Horsehair Bug Fuzz the Third. Jason Novichak. Who was it? Was there?

James Petregallo (187:20)

Jay Novicek? Yeah. Tight end.

Jimmy Whisman (187:22)

Yeah, that's what it was.

James Petregallo (187:24)

I see.

Jimmy Whisman (187:25)

Check. And I go basketball kinda. With no last name. Brenna and Matthew Reicharts. Rickerts Reicherts. Kelly Rogers. Mike Robinson. Amanda Fredericks. Lord Skull Fucker. Oh, that's gross.

James Petregallo (187:40)

High exalted position.

Jimmy Whisman (187:43)

Crystal Smith, Brennan Till, Jeff with no last name. Amos with Amos. Amos with no last name. Steve Stevens, Lore El Testa, Andrew Glenn and all of our patrons. You're the best.

James Petregallo (187:54)

Thank you so much everybody. You fantastic, wonderful, beautiful people. We fucking love you to death. So thank you for keeping this show going. Always. If you want to follow us on social media, shut up and give me murder.com as dropdown menus. It'll take you anywhere you need to go, so go there and see us and keep coming back. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye.

Jimmy Whisman (188:36)

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James Petregallo (188:38)

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Jimmy Whisman (188:49)

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