Panty Sniffing Wife Killer - Greeley, Colorado

Summary

Small Town Murder – Episode Summary

Podcast: Small Town Murder
Title: Panty Sniffing Wife Killer – Greeley, Colorado
Hosts: James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman
Date: January 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the life, crimes, and eventual conviction of John Sandoval, a serial Peeping Tom and sexual deviant from Greeley, Colorado, who murdered his wife, Tina Sandoval, in 1995. The hosts mix thorough research with their signature comedic style to walk listeners through the small town’s history, the endless missteps of local law enforcement, and the escalation of John’s criminal behavior. The resolution of the case is both haunting and bizarre, involving years of failed leads and ultimately turning on evidence the police had missed for years.

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Key Discussion Points & Timeline

Greeley, Colorado: A (Mostly) Friendly Place

[05:16–19:33]

• Brief history: Founded as a temperance, religious, utopian farming colony.
• Area grew rapidly due to Denver’s expensive housing.
• Reviews swing from cozy and safe to “drug-ridden,” and the crime rate is above national average for property crime but below average for violent crime.

Meet Tina and John Sandoval

[19:56–39:44]

• Tina (born 1972 in Indiana): Bright, high-achieving, social, and aiming for a nursing degree.
• John: Older than Tina, meets her at Ames Community College; introduces her to a world very different from her own sheltered upbringing.
• Family likes John (at first), and the couple marries young despite red flags—including warnings from John’s ex-wife Renee.

John Sandoval’s Troubled Past

[39:44–105:24]

• John’s upbringing: Neglectful, boundary-less, with parents who alternately coddled or abandoned him.
• Criminal behavior begins in adolescence: Burglaries, peeping, trespassing, and public indecency.
• Frequent run-ins with Greeley police, who suspect but can’t quite nail him for escalating crimes.
• Family often blames the police or racism for John being “targeted.”

Memorable Quote:
“John’s mother and his family would back them up, claiming that the police were out to get him.” – James [55:56]

Accelerating Escalation, Stalking, and Sex Crimes

[73:34–118:22]

• John’s deviant behavior intensifies; he admits to his cousin Jesse about raping unconscious co-eds ([73:34–73:49]).
• Dating relationships are obsessive and controlling.
• Pattern: Breakups trigger violence or revenge (e.g., killing a girlfriend’s dog).
• The moniker "the Panty Sniffer" is born, as Tina moves from defending John to deciding she’ll leave him ([117:07–118:57]).

Memorable Moment:
“She now nicknamed him…the ‘panty sniffer’, which is not as cool of a name.” – James [117:10]

The Crime and Disappearance

[118:57–130:00]

• August 1995: Tina tells John she wants a divorce and moves out at age 23.
• October 19, 1995: Tina goes to John’s house to finalize divorce papers and vanishes.
• Her car is found abandoned near John’s house, with personal items left inside.
• Police, wary due to John’s history, immediately suspect foul play and focus on him.

Quote:
“We immediately sprung into action because of John’s past…we knew they were in a divorce, and by that in itself, with the domestic violence issues as they can be, we immediately suspected him.” – Lt. Brad Goldschmidt [120:48]

The (Botched) Investigation

[130:00–165:16]

• Police search gravel pits, cemeteries, and lakes, following dozens of psychic and secondhand tips, all fruitless.
• Tina’s family leads their own search, frustrated by the lack of progress.
• In an endless cycle of rumors, psychics, and jailhouse tales, the case grows cold.
• Police miss a critical piece—the presence of Tina’s credit cards in John’s bathroom for years.

Memorable Moment:
“No one had found that in 1995. No one had seen the credit card. That’s a perfect example of why you keep going back.” – James [168:29]

The Break in the Case & Justice

[165:16–188:22]

• 2009: Fresh eyes on the case. New DA reviews the record, discovers the missed credit cards.
• John is arrested in Las Vegas—police find creepy evidence of obsession (e.g., portraits and wedding albums of Tina, hundreds of videotapes, stalking victims in Vegas).
• At trial, the lack of a body is a centerpoint of the defense (“No body, no crime”).
• John is convicted of first-degree murder, but the conviction is later overturned on appeal.
• Facing a retrial, John cuts a deal in 2016: He pleads guilty to 2nd-degree murder and reveals where he buried Tina.

Finding Tina

[188:22–190:08]

• John confesses: He buried Tina beneath a preexisting grave at Sunset Memorial Gardens, in a concrete vault before a funeral was held—explaining why searches missed her for over a decade.
• Tina is finally laid to rest by her family.

Memorable Quote:
“He dug two feet below the open grave and buried the body there…The afternoon burial continued as planned. And she was under the vault.” – James [188:36]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Greeley’s Stampede
  “American bullfighting, a parade and fireworks, followed by a demolition derby.” – James [17:11]
• On John being a master manipulator:
  “He convinced Tina, a smart woman from a good family, that he was a good guy.” – James [129:15]
• On the fatal flaw of missing credit cards:
  “She had her credit cards three days before, and she hadn’t been in any contact with John for 30 days.” – James [168:08]

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Timeline of Important Segments and Timestamps

• Greeley Town Deep Dive: [05:16–16:09]
• Tina’s Background: [19:56–39:44]
• John Sandoval’s Early Crimes: [39:44–73:14]
• Escalation into Harassment and Violence: [73:14–118:00]
• Divorce and Tina’s Disappearance: [118:22–130:00]
• Police and Psychic Shenanigans: [130:00–165:16]
• Break in the Case – Vegas Arrest: [165:16–175:14]
• Conviction, Overturn, Plea, and Body Found: [186:41–190:08]

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Episode Takeaway

This chilling account exposes how dangerous red flags can be missed or ignored, and how tireless (and often tragic) the search for justice can be, especially when criminal behavior escalates over decades. The “panty sniffing wife killer” was hiding in plain sight for years, enabled by a mixture of personal manipulation, institutional failures, and one of the most bizarre body-hiding schemes ever seen in true crime.

The episode is equal parts a lesson in criminal pathology, a study of small-town law enforcement fumbles, and a showcase for the expert, comedic banter of Pietragallo and Whisman.

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Book Referenced:
“In Tina’s Shadow: A True Story of Murder, a Husband’s Guilt, and a Family’s 14-Year Vigil for Justice” by Sharon R. Dunn

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Summary by Small Town Murder Summarizer – For true crime fans, comedy devotees, and anyone left wondering if Greeley is safe to visit.

Transcript

[James Pietragallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

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[James Pietragallo]

Plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits. Credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again. But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year. What do you have to lose? Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time, 50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for three months, $90 for six month or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms this week in Greeley, Colorado. A woman disappears, leaving detectives to suspect her soon to be ex husband but just can't find the evidence causing the case to go cold. Only for all questions to be answered, including finding a body in the wildest place ever. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Oh yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I'm Jimmy Whisman.

[James Pietragallo]

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely crazy edition of Small Town Murder. And this is one of these where this is a case where I'm like, well, I don't know how we didn't do this years ago because it's so crazy. I don't know how we've passed over it, but we have and we're gonna get to it. This before we do, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com get your merchandise, but most importantly, get your tickets for live shows. Come and see us starting out February 21st in Nashville. Get your tickets right now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get them now.

[James Pietragallo]

March 6th in Durham, North Carolina. March 7th in Atlanta. Come see us. Then we're in Phoenix on the 20th and 21st of March doing small town murder and your stupid opinions. Salt Lake City, sold out. Then we're in Denver, Buffalo, Royal Oak, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Tarrytown, and Boston, Wow. Come out, get your tickets right now, come see us.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's gonna be great.

[James Pietragallo]

We're excited. A lot of those shows are selling fast. So if you want to get in there, get in there and come see us. We're very excited for that. Also listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which there's some very real crazy episodes we're doing right now. So you want to get over and do that and your stupid opinions, which is just the funniest thing going. Because making fun of people's complaints, there's nothing better than that. Then get yourself patreon. Patreon.com crimeinsports just like the name of that show, you should be listening to and get all the bonus material you could possibly handle. Anybody, $5 a month or above. You're going to get everything that we offer on Patreon, including hundreds of bonus episodes that you've never heard before immediately upon subscription. New ones every other week. One Crime and sports, one Small Town Murder. And you get them all. You take them all this week for Small Town Murder, we're gonna dive into the whole Dean Coral situation down in Houston. Yeah. And really just the. What ended up happening to his young apprentice there. And that whole thing is, it's just one of the craziest things that's ever happened in the legal system, honestly. And we can't help but talk about this. That's going to be a little while. Oh, it's going to be crazy. Patreon.com crimeinsports and in addition to all that bonus material, you also get everything. We put out all of our shows ad free with your Patreon as well. Ad free. Ad free. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, too. So there's that. That said, disclaimer time, everybody. It's a comedy show that we do here. We're comedians, so there's obviously gonna be jokes. The show is called Small Town Murder, so there's obviously gonna be murder. You go, how do those two things go together? Well, how do you do that? Well, real easily, this is what we do here. We don't make fun of the victims or the victim's family.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Why, James?

[James Pietragallo]

Because we're assholes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

But.

[James Pietragallo]

But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's real easy to do that. Plenty of other stuff to make fun of. We'll make fun of small towns because we're all from somewhere that deserves to be made fun of. But maybe a police force that screws up a case and lets a murderer Kill more people. We make fun of murderers. What's wrong with that? That's what I'm saying. So I think it's gonna be good here. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, maybe you won't like it, but I think maybe you will. There you go. So that said, I think it's time everybody to sit down. All right, what do you say here? Let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay, let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going to Colorado this week.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a great place.

[James Pietragallo]

Back to Colorado. Jimmy loves. I love Colorado. It's beautiful. Love Denver. Cool place. That's great. Greely, Colorado, is where we're going. Which Jimmy was very disturbed by the fact that we're going to Greeley this week. He was like, oh, no. Jimmy's from Colorado, so he's allowed to have whatever opinions he wants about these towns. He's not going to challenge my, you know, my classification of Albany, probably. So he could take this. This is in north central Colorado.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, it's right by Denver.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, it's about. It's not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's a wise out about an hour.

[James Pietragallo]

15 to Denver, so, you know, still closer than the airport. So that's nice. That's helpful. About equidistant, I think Salt Lake city is about 6. Same distance as the Denver airport. 2 hours and 25 minutes to Breckenridge, Colorado. Our last Colorado episode, episode 616, the Orange Sock Murders, which was so. Oh, yeah, one of the craziest cases ever.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a great town.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, that was wild. This is in Weld county, area code 970 or 748, depending on where you are.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So a couple of them.

[James Pietragallo]

Little bit of history of this town. This town began as basically like this, like, religious temperance farming community.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What?

[James Pietragallo]

That's how this town started. It started as the Union Colony of Colorado, which was founded in 1869 by a guy named Nathan C. Meeker, who was an agricultural reporter for the New York Tribune newspaper and as an experimental utopian farming community. That's what they set this up as. Based on temperance, religion, agriculture, education and family values. Basically, the Amish is what they were.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There's a couple of things in there that are the catalyst for that. I got a feeling it's not.

[James Pietragallo]

It's temperance and religion are the two.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, it's not the crop. Agriculture. It snows like a bastard in the winter. Here.

[James Pietragallo]

Exactly. So Horace Greeley was the Tribune's editor. That's how this happened. He had visited Colorado during the gold rush in 1859, and he had popularized the phrase go west, young man, which is a very popular.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's right.

[James Pietragallo]

That was from him from the New York Tribune. So anyway, they got a bunch of people together to try to find a suitable site, and they got a bunch of land. 12,000 acres.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

@ the time, no, it was known as the Island Grove Ranch and included a bunch of. A lot of this area and everything like that. They got about 5, 500 people came to take up residence here. They changed it to Greely in order of Horace Greeley, since he was the one that popularized the whole movement in 1943. Greeley had two prisoner of war camps during World War.

[Jimmy Whisman]

II. No.

[James Pietragallo]

Shit. Yes. One was for Germans and one was for Italians. So we had that there. A vote to allow the sale of alcohol barely passed in 1969, finally bringing alcohol to this town. Before that, the temperance shit, stayed on for 100 years. So that said some reviews of this town, because I know Jimmy's been there, but I've never been here, so.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I do love that they had that.

[James Pietragallo]

Word. I do love that they had. What was that? Prisoner of war.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Camps. That's it. One for you, one for.

[James Pietragallo]

Me. Yeah, for both of us. That's nice. Real nice. A vote to allow the sale of alcohol. So that's hilarious, though. I can't believe it took them till 1969.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Anyway. Oh, I.

[James Pietragallo]

Can. I'm still. I'm still hung up on that. Reviews of this town. Here's five stars. I was born in Greeley, Colorado, and have lived here since. I've had such good experiences in Greeley. It's a very small town, but I think a small town can be good depending on someone's needs or wants. I have loved living in this small but very friendly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Town.

[James Pietragallo]

Okay. And that's the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Thing. If you need to be.

[James Pietragallo]

Remote.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah. And you want to be. What is that? Just isolated, then.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. This is great. Well, and the other thing is, nowadays the population of it does not say it's a very small town. The population, it's grown so much since Denver's gotten so expensive and it's immutable. So it's grown a lot in the last, like 25 years. When our murder happened, it was still in the small town thing. But right now it's got a lot of people. Here's three stars. Not very safe on the east Side of town. But I like that it has a small town feel, even for a place a bit bigger. See, that's kind of how a lot of the reviews are like that. Hey. Feels like a small town still, even though the population's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Growing. Colorado Springs is like that too. It feels small townie, but it's fucking so.

[James Pietragallo]

Congested. Yeah, that's. That's tough. One Star. It is really scary. Oh, there are a lot of hard drugs in the area. Despite a town being in the middle of nowhere. Middle of nowhere. That's where the hard drugs are. Go to West Virginia. It's all the middle of nowhere, full of drugs. Talking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

About. Yeah, a boy digging coal out of the side of a.

[James Pietragallo]

Mountain. Yes, that's what happens. Here's One Star. I wish I didn't live by an apartment complex. They steal and are very disruptive apartment people. Yeah, here's One Star. I live by a park and every night there are cars parked there all night. And I believe there are drug sales happening. Well, there's also dick sucking happening. There's a lot of things happening there that you don't know about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here. There's a lot of commerce that is.

[James Pietragallo]

Untaxed. Yes. A lot of under the radar commerce going on there. One Star. Greeley is an interesting town on the west side. It's beautiful with parks and shopping. Anything on the east side of 35th Avenue is where a lot of crime happens. Bikes and a camera stolen from my yard in broad daylight. The police don't do much besides drive around. Not actually enforcing any laws. Dangerous people walking around constantly. Not a safe city. There we.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Go. People are just jerking off in the church parking.

[James Pietragallo]

Lot. They do that in the park at night in the parked cars. People right now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

107,014. Wow. It's really.

[James Pietragallo]

Booming. Yeah, there's about half of that when this murder happened here. And that's just in the last 30 years. How blown up. Really bad. And you see like every decade. It was like a small town in the 70s and now it's getting bigger. A few more men than women. 50.2% men, which is actually odd for a town with a lot of people in it. Median age here 31.7. There is a college here. Oh, yeah, it was at Northern Colorado University or something. So I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Believe. Yeah, it's an off brand one like.

[James Pietragallo]

That. Yeah. It's not a Division 1 football school, put it that way. Family here, it's about 48% married, so slightly below the national average. More people are single with children, which happens when you have younger people too, that'll happen. Race in this town, 55% white, 2% black, 1.3% Asian, 39.4% Hispanic. Religion, only 30% religious here. Normally it's 50, 50. I don't know. Maybe if you're up in the mountains. If you're up in the sky already, you're like, you know what? Here it is. I don't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Know. Greeley's Flat. Shit up.

[James Pietragallo]

There. Oh, okay. That drops off pretty quick then. 14.1% is Catholic. That's the most of any religion here. As we know. Catholics are the Baptists of the Rocky Mountain regions. Rocky plains of the Rocky Mountain plains. The median household income here is $60,601 a year, which is below pretty decent. Not bad, but below the national average by about $9,000. Cost of living, though, is a lot. It's expensive here because this is a. You can commute to Denver from here. And Denver is outrageously.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Expensive. My.

[James Pietragallo]

Christ. Denver, wild expensive. You wouldn't think that it is, but wow, it is pricey.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There. So I don't know what did it, but it's just not okay.

[James Pietragallo]

Anymore. I don't know. 100 is average for cost of living here. It's 113. And the housing is the highest. Median home cost here, $420,600 median. Wow, that's rough if 60,000 is the household income. So if we've convinced you. Damn it, you need to come here. You don't like the mountains, you want to be in the flatlands. We have for you. But still closer to Denver than the airport. We have for you the Greeley Colorado real estate report. Your average two bedroom rental here. Well above the national average at 1400 $30 a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Month.

[James Pietragallo]

Wow. It's about 200 bucks more than the national average. House number one is a two bedroom, one bath, 742 square foot trailer. Yeah, it's a. I'll show it to you. It's a trailer with. With nice siding and a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Porch. It's a very clean.

[James Pietragallo]

Looking. It's nice like the 70s, but yeah, very clean. It's about as good as you can make a trailer look. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's. I mean the outside, I don't know if.

[James Pietragallo]

They'Re. Yeah, nice porch and all that kind of thing. Not a lot going on otherwise in this thing. 58,000 bucks for that. Okay, so it's kind of your. Now, I don't know about.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The. Probably just on the trailer and then. Yeah, that's there's no way you own the lot.

[James Pietragallo]

Too. No, no way. Here is a three bedroom, one bath, I think one and a half bath, 1024 square foot house. So not very big. Not a big lot. Built in 1926, as you can see. Looks like an old kind of miner shack that they made into a nice house. Nice hardwood inside. It's done fine. This house, not a big lot or anything like that. 265,000 bucks for that. And they just had a price cut of 5,000 on that one. So 2,000 on the trailer and then a four bedroom, three and a half bath. 3,537 square foot house on three 30.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Acres. Oh, I gotta see.

[James Pietragallo]

This. Including a giant private lake. That's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yours. My Christ, that's.

[James Pietragallo]

Awesome. Oh, that's a big ass lake. That's your private.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Lake. Is it a big a frame house too? Is it that.

[James Pietragallo]

One? Yeah, it's this one here up front. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you have to share the lake. It says private lake. I'm not sure, but 30 acres is a lot of land.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Anyway.

[James Pietragallo]

Cool. It's a nice house. Built in 1983. So it's not like it's an old homesteader house or anything. $2,850,000. Holy, that lake. I don't know. It's not worth that, I don't think. It's not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Boatable. That's a small.

[James Pietragallo]

Lake. Oh yeah, no, you could take a rowboat around in circles. Don't get me wrong, it's a pond. Let's stop calling it a lake first. It's not a lake. Yeah, you can call anything a lake technically, but that's a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pond. I think on Golden Pond the water was bigger than.

[James Pietragallo]

That. Oh, by far. Yeah. Henry Fonda couldn't see across it when. You know what I mean. That's bullshit. Calling this a lake. Things to do here. The Greely.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Stampede. Yeah, this is much like cowboy.

[James Pietragallo]

Shit they do in like Calgary. And there's a lot of western areas, the locales that do this stampede type shit. And it's usually some kind of rodeo mixed with livestock events and shit like that. We have the Longhorn kickoff drive. Oh, the PRCA X Stream bulls, you know, with an.

[Jimmy Whisman]

X. Rodeo cowboys. James, this is great. That's a big event.

[James Pietragallo]

Actually. We got the rodeo on Thursday night, another rodeo on Saturday. On Sunday, another rodeo. Also cowboy church, which seems to be big in Colorado. Whenever we talk about Colorado, that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Comes up cowboy church and cowboy poetry.

[James Pietragallo]

Babe. They love it. Jesus. Monday, June 29th, we have boots and Bling. Whatever event that is. That sounds.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Terrible. That's a dance.

[James Pietragallo]

Babe. Another. That. Four o' clock in the afternoon. What a weird.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Dance. That's when they start that.

[James Pietragallo]

Shit. Well, they have to get it over by seven. Cause guess what's happening at.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Seven. Square.

[James Pietragallo]

Dance. It's another.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Rodeo. Time to get some. Yeah. Bulls and.

[James Pietragallo]

Blood. Then the next day, yet another rodeo, followed by a whiskey and cigar tasting. Then another Rodeo. Then Saturday, July 4th, we have American bullfighting, a parade and fireworks, followed by a demolition derby. Now, there's also music for all the weekend dates of this show. I'll save the best for last. We have Warren Zeters. I don't know. You know who that is? Yeah. You know. Okay. All right. Warren's Eaters is All right. Justin Moore with Clay Walker.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Which.

[James Pietragallo]

Nope. That just sounds like. That sounds like AI Plug in names. Clay Walker. All right. I want to be a country.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Name. Clay Walker's an older country musician. But the other one fucking.

[James Pietragallo]

Blows. Scott.

[Jimmy Whisman]

McCreary. Yeah. He won American.

[James Pietragallo]

Idol. Parker McCollum and Mackenzie.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Carpenter.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. And then, of course, Ludacris will be there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Obviously. I swear to God, Ludicrous is.

[James Pietragallo]

Headlining. He is everywhere. He is everywhere. Every goddamn county fair we talk about. He's always there. Yeah. You cannot escape Ludacris no matter where you are. Ludacris will be in your town at some point. Doesn't matter where you are, you go. No, I live in Nome, Alaska. Ludacris will be there. Don't worry about it. He's coming. There's got to be like. There's got to be like five Ludicrouses. Like five Ludicry that go around the nation. Cause there's no way one man is doing every county fair in the country.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right. Imagine sky opens for.

[James Pietragallo]

Ludacris. It's wild shit. And now Ludacris. This is ludicrous. Okay, crime, rate this down. What we're interested in property crime, just above average. Maybe about 15% above average. They made it sound like it was like, you know, Juarez. Yeah. Crazy. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime, slightly below.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Average.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh. So, I mean, yeah, this seems like a couple people made a real big deal about it. But I mean, statistically it's fine, crime wise. Yeah, maybe, like, little pockets are shitty little neighborhoods. These people live in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Those. Scotty McCreery's tiny ass is showing up here. Everything's.

[James Pietragallo]

Fine. Yeah. Ludacris is coming every. Even if it's not fine. Now it will be because Ludacris will be here. He'll take care of everything for you. Don't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Worry. Feels like something Paul Revere would have.

[James Pietragallo]

Said. Yeah. Quick, put up a tent in the stage. Ludicrous is coming. Okay, that's $20. That said, let's talk about some murder because. Wow, is this a. This is one of the craziest stories. This is so nuts. I was in. I was sold on it after the couple of things I read. And then it was like. Then it got weirder, then it got crazy. This is awesome. This keeps getting weirder. Let's talk about a woman first here. A young lady, Christina Marie Tornai. T O R T O U R N A I Tornai. She goes by Tina. Old Christina does. Here. She's born March 17, 1972, and she's born in Indiana. She is the second of nine children. Oh, yeah. Nine children. Her father's name is Michael. Her mother's name is Mary.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ellen. She's born here and grows up here with nine.

[James Pietragallo]

Kids. Huh. Indiana is where she was born, but they moved to Colorado at some point.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Here. Okay, we'll.

[James Pietragallo]

Get. And Michael's a police officer for a while. I don't know if that's his entire career, but he did that for years at some point here. I like Michael and Mary Ellen. They seem like decent people. Now. Tina graduated Windsor High School and she's, like, did everything. She's impressive. She lettered in track, volleyball, basketball. That's three sports. You let her in. That's pretty impressive. Also was in the Knowledge bowl.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So. Yeah, that's a.

[James Pietragallo]

Trivia. And she played trumpet in the band and sang in the choir as.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Well.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. I don't know. When do you sleep when you have all that shit to do? That seems like there's no.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Downtime. She's watching Jeopardy.

[James Pietragallo]

Constantly. Yeah, we're watching Jeopardy. While playing a trumpet. That's hard to do in her sleep. You can't hear. Yeah. Hard to hear the answers, you know. She ended up going to Ames Community College. Aims, all caps. It's gotta stand for something. She was going there for a nursing degree. She decides that's what she wants to get into. She very much wants to help people. Also, she's very. Nobody ever has a bad word to say about Tina. She's that kind of.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Lady. Where she was The M. & Ames stands for medical, I.

[James Pietragallo]

Imagine, possibly. But it's a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Community.

[James Pietragallo]

College. Oh. So it's probably Prereqs. Yeah. I don't know. The S could stand for, like, the end of hacky sack. We have no idea. At a community college. I don't know. So there she meets a young man. All right, okay. She meets a young man named John Sandoval. And John here is same age as her. They're both in college and, you know, both going around. Now, John has a cousin named Jesse who's kind of like his best friend. Grew up with him. Not kind of. He is his best friend. He's the closest person to him all the time. They're cousins. They grew up together. And Jesse says, you know, they. I guess the way they met. John noticed Tina in the gym one day at school and said, I, like, like her. And so Jesse, or I'm sorry, John went over, talked to her, and they started talking. Later on, he said that when John introduced Tina to his cousin Jesse, Jesse said he couldn't believe how shy and how pretty she was. She was like crazy pretty and crazy shy, which normally isn't by that. You might see that in the ninth grade. But usually by the time a girl's in college and she's gotten.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All that attention, she realizes, oh, it's this.

[James Pietragallo]

Rack that. Yeah, or whatever, I'm hot, whatever. Men are attracted to me. And usually that helps them come out of their shell anyway, as far as. I mean, sometimes they feel like kind of. That's its own little cage.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In itself, but sometimes it puts them further in the shell. But, yeah, I.

[James Pietragallo]

Get it. A lot of times it gives them confidence anyway to not be shy. You know what I mean? Jesse said, quote, I thought, this woman is going to change John's life. I even thought that when they were dating, they were so into each other. He was always talking about her. Everything was about her. That was the happiest I'd ever seen John. Yeah, so, I mean, that's just. They fell in love. Hot girlfriend. Fucking. Yeah, they fall in love. It's pretty early. This is. It's one of those things that, like, it's. You know, that's great, but please don't get married and do things like that because you're too young.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's.

[James Pietragallo]

Just. Right. It's. It's rough, but sometimes it works out. But Jesse said he started to see a much different John based on going out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

With Tina. He said that he boosted his.

[James Pietragallo]

Ego, too. He was cleaning up his act. He was trying to, like, impress her and not be a jerk off. Yeah, he'd been a jerk off up till that point, kind of. And he said, oh, no, I got to be Upstanding. This young lady. Shit, she's, you know, she's pretty. I can't fuck up, you know, so he. This is what Jesse said. I'd seen that good in him. I wanted that for him to get a degree, to get a good job, to be married and have kids and live a normal lifestyle and. And get out of that old way of life, which. Don't worry, we'll talk plenty about his old way. Oh, his old way is quite the way. I really honestly thought that things were going to change now. This is the thing, though. Tina knows nothing of any old way of anything. She just met.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A nice. She just sees the.

[James Pietragallo]

New John. She just sees a nice guy she met in college. That's it. So, I mean, you kind of take that at face value. College is one of those things that kind of wipes you clean when you. It's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A pallet. Get away.

[James Pietragallo]

From home. Yeah, yeah. If you go to college, it's like whatever you did before doesn't matter. It's almost impressive if you fucked up because now you're in college. You know what.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean? Getting.

[James Pietragallo]

It together. It's crazy like that. So their. Their relationship grows closer and in December of 1991. So she's 19 at this point, she's, I guess, always very private, but decided she wanted to introduce John to her parents because they were planning on getting married on January 1, 1992. Already in December, she's like, I guess I better introduce him to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The family.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, boy. Which is a lot. So they met for coffee.

[Jimmy Whisman]

At a Burger King with.

[James Pietragallo]

The parents. That's how they're gonna all have this meeting over. 89 cent coffee, over styrofoam cup, 89 cent coffee. And the smell of those potato fucking ovals that they make in the air, whatever the hell those are. Hash brown things. Yeah. They're basically a squash.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Tater tot. It's a stomped on tater tot. It's.

[James Pietragallo]

So good. So good. I'm not gonna.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Talk shit. Whatever's on the bottom of those Reeboks.

[James Pietragallo]

Is delicious. It's goddamn good. So he. Mike, by the way, the dad, was a cop for two years. That's how long he says. This is Mike, her dad said he came across. Well, it's something. I look back in my police training, you pick up things. But he came across fine. He was in college. He was intelligent, personable. Everything looked good. Yep. So that's it. And also when you have.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nine.

[James Pietragallo]

Kids. Yeah. How much. How much focus can you put on one of Them's boyfriend. You know what I mean? You have.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nine kids. You just got to be happy that they're happy. I.

[James Pietragallo]

Don'T know. And she's the second oldest, so that means there are. And she's only, you know, 19. So that means there are seven more that aren't even adults yet that you have to concentrate on. So you go, you make sure he's not a serial killer, like drooling with blood dripping from his fangs. And you go, great.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Checked off.

[James Pietragallo]

Enjoy yourself. There you go. Signed off.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On.

[James Pietragallo]

It. Yeah. Hey, everybody. Just to take a quick break from the show and tell you a better way to feed your dogs.

[Jimmy Whisman]

With Ollie. Oh, Ollie.com O L L I E.

[James Pietragallo]

Dot com. Absolutely. We love.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Our dogs. Oh, boy.

[James Pietragallo]

Do I. You have, you just got a new puppy. Jimmy's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Got two. I have.

[James Pietragallo]

Three dogs. Yeah. I got Frankie, Benny and Oscar. And we love our dogs. Let's be realistic here. They're, they're cuddly, they're fun. All of, all of our dogs are real friendly and real into us. So they're fun to hang out with and that kind of thing. And so we want to give them the best food they can have. We want to keep them around the longest, we want them to be healthy and we want them to be happy. And so we wanted to give our dogs the same kind of New Year's fresh start, slow down energy that we're trying to accomplish here in the New Year's. So what you do is you switch to Ollie, which is great food. It's fresh, human grade meals. You can sit down next to your dog and you can both eat it. It's great stuff. Real ingredients. Five slow cooked recipes. Tastes like a warm, comforting meal. But for your dog, your dog doesn't deserve that. It's human grade. It's great. Backed by vet nutritionists and crafted with culinary experts. Dog culinary experts. The dogs love the taste. Even your pickiest dog will dive into this stuff because they think I'm getting people food. This is great. Tailored meal plans to meet your dog's specific needs. Perfectly portioned meals in mess. Free packaging comes with a scoop for easy serving and a storage puptainer so it won't smell up your fridge. It's great. This is. They thought of everything. The Ollie app offers on demand health screenings where you can tap real experts for pup peace of mind uses data from the Ollie pack to develop new recipes and products from your dog. You're going to notice your dogs are going to be happier mealtime. You're going to notice your dogs are going to have a more manageable poop situation as well. Your yard is going to look much better after this. You really need to do this. I'm telling you right now, get with this. Your dog's well being starts with their food and, and that's why Ollie delivers fresh human grade food that your dogs will love. Head to ollie.com STM tell them about your dog and use the code STM to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O l l I e.com STM and enter code STM to get 60% off your.

[Jimmy Whisman]

First box. Now back to.

[James Pietragallo]

The show. Hey everybody, just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about what you should be feeding your cat with. Smalls. Smalls.com Ah, you know it. Brandi is my cat. We've talked about her before and she, she thinks she runs things. You know, she's got a little cocky little attitude on her and she kind of does. That's the thing. And she looks at me and I look at her and I can see it in her eyes when she wants the Smalls. I can see it. Yeah, I can see it. You'll go to pet her and she'll rub on you a little bit. She'll be like, yeah, that's fine and all, but I want the Smalls. And she walks over to her bowl and she sits next to it and then she looks at me and I go, you want the smalls, don't you? And then she goes. And I go, you want the Smalls, don't you? And she goes, and then I give her the smalls and then she eats it all. It's great. It's perfect. And she loves it. It's so good. None of this. You ever read a label on cat food? You don't know what's in there. It's crazy stuff. You need to get this. It's so much better. It's 2026. Do you still feed your cat like it's 1926? What are you doing? This podcast is sponsored by Smalls and for a limited time, get 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com STM Smalls Cat Food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients that you'd find in your own fridge and it's delivered right to your door. That's why catscott.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. Super easy to start out with Smallsies. Also you just share some info about your cat's diet, health and food preferences. Smalls puts together a personalized sampler for your cat. Your cat gets a little cocky. Now they're gonna be even more cocky because now they have personalized samplers and they deserve it. Here, no more picking between these random brands. Smalls has the right food to satisfy your cat's cravings. After switching to smalls, 88% of cat cat owners reported overall health improvements. That's a big deal. And the team at Smalls is so confident your cat will love their product that you can try it risk free. That means they will refund you if your cat will not eat this food. They love it. I love this sponsor. The cats love the food. Make 2026 your cat's healthiest year yet. Take advantage of their New Year's special and get 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.comstm one last time. That's 60% off your first order plus Free shipping when you head to smalls dot comstm now back to the show and mom too. Mary Ellen said that he seemed like a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Great.

[James Pietragallo]

Guy. Yeah. By the way, a lot of this is from a book that I'll give you the name and title of at the end and the author and all that because they did a great job. Good book. Quote this fellow was more like a very slow talking, nice guy who could make conversation with anybody who seemed genuinely interested in whoever he was talking to. He didn't come across like someone who was trying to sell you something. He was an easygoing guy. No strong opinions about anything. He just kind of agreed.

[Jimmy Whisman]

With.

[James Pietragallo]

You. Oh. Which can either be a go along to get along guy or someone who's full of shit. You.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don'T know. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, yeah. Who knows? Someone's too agreeable. I tend to think either they're dull or lying. One of the two. Right. Dull or full of shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Which one? Or just on first meeting. Perhaps he just doesn't want to tip his hand too far because. Yeah. But either way, I guess.

[James Pietragallo]

That'S lying. That's it exactly. But that's first impressions too. If you're a 20 year old kid and you're sitting down with your. You're going to get married in less than a month. And so it's a lot of pressure. It's not like you're just. This is some girlfriend you're going to have to deal with these people. You're not going to sit down and start ranting and raving about the Supreme Court over Burger King coffee. You know what I mean? You're going to keep it light, probably talk about the Broncos and be cool upon.

[Jimmy Whisman]

First meeting. You're expressing your intention is to marry. So. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty fucking.

[James Pietragallo]

Serious already. Exactly. You just start. You just say it sucks that the Broncos lost all those Super Bowls lately, right? Yeah, it does. That's all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You say? Yeah. I'm out of John.

[James Pietragallo]

Elway too.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, man. Maybe I'll do two Super Bowls in.

[James Pietragallo]

The future. We need a better game plan than that Dan Reaves. I'll tell you what. Yeah. So. Night. So they're planning to marry now, apparently before the wedding. This is December holiday season. Leading up to this New Year's wedding, the Tornays, Michael and Mary Ellen here got some phone calls from a woman claiming to be John's first wife. Oh, which the kids. 20 years old in college. He's got such a past.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's crazy. And not only does he have a past, but past has come to call.

[James Pietragallo]

Like literally. Oh yeah. On the phone calling these in laws. So they had to do some research to find she's aware. Yeah, this is Renee Daleo and Mike, who is Tina's dad, said she sounded like a raving maniac, screaming, telling us, don't let Tina do it. I couldn't remember the conversation, but I just put her off as some kind of nut. She said, don't let Tina.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Marry John. Well, now we know why she's.

[James Pietragallo]

The ex. Is Renee nuts or is Renee onto something? We don't know. So the parents told Tina of the calls and Tina blew them off. Mom, Mary Ellen said. She said Renee was calling her too. She said she thought Renee was jealous and wanted John back. So he's such a prize she can't possibly let him out of her talons. Apparently this other woman. So. January 1, 1992. I don't know if this was like a midnight wedding after New Year's Eve or what, because I saw some reports that said December 31st. So maybe they had a party and then at midnight they got married. I'm not sure, but they get married either way. Tina's got a white gown, all that kind of shit. Lace stuff, all sorts of lace sleeves and all that kind of thing. Here Tina's five foot six and. And all the heels and stuff. They're about the same size. At the great. At the altar there she's a blonde. And she pulled up her hair and did all that. John's got a black tuxedo with a yellow rose, and his cousin Jesse is his best man. There you go. Now, after the ceremony, John addresses everybody and he said, we had such little time to plan the wedding. We threw everything together at the last minute. But I felt the ceremony went well, didn't you? And Tina was smiling. Everybody's happy. And he then said, I've got the best woman a man could ever ask for. Oh. So Tina ends up going to the University of Northern Colorado to further pursue her nursing degree. So she does all of that. She was talking about being a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Doctor.

[James Pietragallo]

Actually. Really? Yeah. That's how this started. Her mom said even in college, one of her favorite classes was organic chemistry. And almost nobody says that. I know. We don't. I don't even know what that is, so. Tells you how stupid we are. She helped so many students in her track with the organic chemistry. Besides working on the weekends, she was always taking time in her study groups to tutor.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Her.

[James Pietragallo]

Friends. Nice. She's a really nice person. That's what everybody said. She ends up getting her BS in nursing from the University of Northern Colorado and she starts working as a licensed practical nurse on the weekends at the Northern Colorado.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Medical.

[James Pietragallo]

Center. Great. She graduated in the top 5% of her class as well. Wow. Yeah, that's pretty goddamn good. That's in 1995. She's gonna end up graduating, which is great. And that also helps that she's slightly a little bit older than the average student. A couple years. I think that's an advantage academically and especially if you're married. You're not going out partying, right? Yeah. You know, I think that's the thing. You're gonna go home, you're gonna go to work, you're.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gonna go. Gives you a leg up to focus and be a mature.

[James Pietragallo]

Adult. Yeah. Other kids probably aren't like eating a sit down dinner with it, you know what I mean? So it's just a different thing. During her practicum at the hospital, an instructor who evaluated her said she was an exceptional nursing student. The best he had ever supervised. Oh. And that's it. Everybody loves Tina and his family too. John's family loves her, the Sandoval family, they love her. They think she's great. Jesse, John's cousin and best friend, said everyone in our family loved Tina. Even the progression of meeting someone to family get togethers like Easter and picnics, we'd have them over for Broncos games. Different reasons Everyone in our family just.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Adored.

[James Pietragallo]

Her. Right? So there you go. She ends up having a job at the oncology department of Northern Colorado's medical center. Yeah, she goes right into that. That's rough, man. That's rough. I mean, hats off to her, that is. Someone's got to do that job. That's a hard job. Taxing, you know, real taxing. Someone's got to do it. And I. Anybody who can handle that. Wow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Incredible. Honestly, watching.

[James Pietragallo]

One person. That's what I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Mean, is. And she's doing that all day long.

[James Pietragallo]

That's crazy. God damn it. You have something. Something in you to be it. Still be able to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Be like. Have compassion for him and not just be like, yeah, you're.

[James Pietragallo]

Dying, idiot. Yeah. You think you would put up a wall at some point and be like, I don't care. They all die. They.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All die. Compassion still is.

[James Pietragallo]

Pretty impressive. Now, 1993, Mary Ellen gets a call from her daughter Tina. Tina is ballin'. She's crying, and she says that John, quote, john's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In jail.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, no. She cries. He'd been picked up on a parole violation. Parole. Not even probation. Parole violation. Which means you've been in prison and released. Yes. He's already had a wife and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A parole. Yeah. I can't wait to hear about.

[James Pietragallo]

John's past. Oh, man. It's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Old John. Must.

[James Pietragallo]

Be fascinating. Oh, man. Old John, current John, future John.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They'Re all. John's.

[James Pietragallo]

A party. Wow. For someone with such a plain name, he couldn't have more shit going on. It's crazy. So Mary Ellen said she was crying, and we came and went to the jail with her. It was a parole hearing. We sat with her in the waiting room outside the courtroom, and she said, john's been on parole because he stole from a lady he worked with in California with his first wife. She said he did it because they.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Were hungry. Oh, he was hungry and.

[James Pietragallo]

Needed food. So he's saying, yeah, these were two starving people and they stole money for food. And that's why he's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On.

[James Pietragallo]

Parole. Okay. Which sounds, you know, oh, a poor guy. You know, you can understand that. Everybody would, you know, food is food. Need to have food. You know, it's not like, basic. Yeah. He wasn't stealing for, like. What is this, the 80s, VCRs or something? Trying to think of what was expensive in the 80s. So we find out, though, that that's not what it is at all. John has quite the past. Quite the past. And let's find out about him up to this Point and then where he'll go from there. Apparently, basically his parents just let him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Run wild. What do.

[James Pietragallo]

You mean? There's no boundaries. There's no, you got in trouble, you're getting punished. There's no, don't do that. It's just kind of free range feral. Let your kids run around and be menaces to everybody. And John's cousin Jesse said his dad was super smart and he was trying to raise them. In the era where you didn't hit kids, because this is in the 70s and 80s, they were telling you not to hit your kids anymore. You shouldn't. Yeah. Like we do now. And I guess John. And John has an older brother named Ray. They were just allowed to do whatever they wanted. There's a diff. There's a huge fucking canyon between not hitting kids and not having any. Boundaries.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Of kids. Yeah. No consequences versus not hitting. They're.

[James Pietragallo]

Two different. Totally different. Yeah. You don't have to beat the shit out of your kids if you. If you have to beat the shit out of your kids, you're probably not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Communicating well. You're a very frustrated.

[James Pietragallo]

Human being. Yeah. You're not good at parenting if you have to beat the shit out of a child. So they also said that had a huge, profound consequence. This is from Jesse. He never wanted to lay a hand on his boys and he never spanked them. They knew they could get away with a lot. He's saying it like, if they would only beat their kids, everything would have been fine. John, his mother mary lou, had 13 brothers.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And sisters. My.

[James Pietragallo]

God.

[Jimmy Whisman]

13. Which? Pull.

[James Pietragallo]

Out, sir. What's he attracted to? So funny how he's attracted to a girl from a family of nine brothers and sisters. Which is. So you don't do that.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On.

[James Pietragallo]

Purpose. No. But your dad's an alcoholic. Girls. Go find an alcoholic. Your mom's from a big family or your mom's a narcissist or whatever. You go find a narcissist. It's crazy. So, Mary Lou, they said they often fought over money, I guess, as adults. The brothers, all 14 of them, in a giant battle royal, I guess would be the only way you could fight over money with that many people. Also, his mom was.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A.

[James Pietragallo]

Nurse. Okay. I mean, a nurse from a big family.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's hilarious. And got a medical.

[James Pietragallo]

Lady here. Yep. She later sold cosmetics. I don't know if that was Avon, probably back in the day, or even Amway. Mary Kay. Not sure Mary Kay could have been any. They said she was a terrible housekeeper. Nobody was a good housekeeper. In the family. And they said that basically Jesse said that you had to carve a path through the rubble in their.

[Jimmy Whisman]

House. Basically. Oh, a.

[James Pietragallo]

Hoarder too. Just shit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Everywhere.

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah. Wow. The family often had garage sales not to clear shit out, but to make money to actually get a few bucks because they.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Were short. That's.

[James Pietragallo]

The job. That's the job. Now this is from Jesse, a quote from cousin Jesse. Almost all the negative things that came out of John came from his mom's side. My mom said she had seen two of her brothers fighting over a nickel. The brothers and sisters, his aunts and uncles were always at each other's throats for money. They were money centered. Not only greedy, but really hateful toward.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Each.

[James Pietragallo]

Other. Oh. Which if you have, if there's 14 kids, they're either going to be incredibly close or they're going to murder each other. One of the two. You can't. There's no in between. That depends on how the family, how the parents are structured. Now, John's father's name was Ephraim Ephrem Sandoval, and he was an educated guy. He got a scholarship to College in the 1950s. So he's a smart guy. He wanted to become an attorney but never did. Instead he turned into a biker. Yeah. So. Yeah. And this is early incarnation of bikers too. This isn't when it was cool, this is when it was dirty. And guys just like to ride bikes and do meth, you know? So he said he was a private investigator in Las Vegas for a while too, but we don't have any confirmation.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Of.

[James Pietragallo]

That. Okay. He also had a wild side for his motorcycles. He loved to drink Jack Daniels and do drugs as well. So there's that. And they, they said that they liked to read dad's Easy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Rider.

[James Pietragallo]

Magazines. Yeah. And they once used the recipe that they found in there to make weed cookies. They.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Said too. That was a fascinating time to be alive when everybody. You knew what everybody was into just by looking at their.

[James Pietragallo]

Coffee table. Oh yeah. Go in their bathroom. Go in their bathroom. You'll see it. Yeah. That's when like everything came with a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Roach clip. You're like, I had dirt wheels and auto trader from eight months ago in.

[James Pietragallo]

My bathroom. It's like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

For sure. Why are these.

[James Pietragallo]

Still here? For sure. I liked when you go, I didn't put them there. They were my parents. Well, yeah. You didn't go out and buy them. I liked when you'd go to one of your friends divorced father's house and he'd have Wii in the bathroom and like club and like these weird.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Titty magazines. A lot of people don't know. People just know. Hustler, Playboy. People don't.

[James Pietragallo]

Know club. Club was filthy. Filthy. I know because we were. My uncle had seventh grade. We really went through.

[Jimmy Whisman]

My friends. Shitloads.

[James Pietragallo]

Of them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't. Every time I went to the bathroom in his bathroom, it was a new one. So.

[James Pietragallo]

He subscribed.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh yeah. Found.

[James Pietragallo]

It where? Yeah, this guy's dad had stacks of them. You go in there, there'd be two foot high stacks of club and Wii and Hustler. I was like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Holy shit. He liked the good stuff. Cause that those ones showed.

[James Pietragallo]

Penetration pets. Absurd. He liked it filthy. That was the same house where I ate like 150 vitamin C tablets because I thought they were candy. And then his dad got busted for selling coke. So his house got raided one night. It was a club. Yeah. You knew it just by.

[Jimmy Whisman]

His magazine? Yeah. You could tell who's a dirtbag by.

[James Pietragallo]

Their bathroom. Totally. Now you can't tell. It's all on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Your phone. I mean, that tells you that man is beating off in.

[James Pietragallo]

The. Constantly. There's so many magazines that he had to be reading them. He couldn't have just been using them for masturbation. There were so many. He had to be taking in the articles. I swear to God. Because he had all of them. So. So this is the kind of environment he's growing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Up.

[James Pietragallo]

In. Yeah. Which isn't obviously great.

[Jimmy Whisman]

For structure. Dangerous for.

[James Pietragallo]

A child. Yeah. So John's parents get divorced when he's seven and you know, that's kind of tough. And he and his older brother Ray and their younger brother Andy were kind of on their own at that point to run amok as they see fit from seven on, which is tough. He got into some shit. This is Jesse, his cousin. Said John was very mischievous. He unplugged the fridge at my mom's house once without telling anyone. And all the food spoiled.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ha. Okay. Really.

[James Pietragallo]

Shrimping them. That'll earn you a beating, like if you're a poor fan. If I did that growing up, my family, I would have gotten the shit kicked out of me, period.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's it. There was upwards $90 worth of shit in there. It would have.

[James Pietragallo]

Been ugly. Oh my God, even the pickles have gone bad. It would have been awful. And they're in vinegar. So. Yeah. He said they figured it had to have been one of the kids and found out it was. I don't know how they found out, but he eventually.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Fessed.

[James Pietragallo]

Up. Okay. So he said they were always into something. John and his brother Ray, especially. John broke his arm when he and his brother had the idea where they would jump off the roof of their house and float down with umbrellas a la.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Mary Poppins. Who hasn't.

[James Pietragallo]

Done that? And it's funny because Ray's the older brother. It's never the older brother with the broken arm. It's always, hey, jump off the house and see if this works. The older one telling the younger one to do that. I see that with my nephews. The older one gets the younger one to do stupid shit. Yeah. Just to see if he'll do it. He said that he and Ray would do this all the time because they were freaking bored. That's what Jesse said. He said they would also rig booby traps for friends and people would actually get hurt. These weren't like, fun things where a bucket of water would fall on you. This was like Home Alone pranks where you slipped on some cars and put your foot through a nail. Put your nail through a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Foot in the head with.

[James Pietragallo]

Neon tubes. Yeah. Crazy shit. So Jesse was a victim of this. At one point, the John and his brother Ray set up a faulty bicycle ramp under a big rock. On a bicycle without a seat. Okay. And Jesse said when they set up the ramp, they set it on. They set it up on a round rock, hoping I'd fall and fuck myself up. It was a bad stunt going. Bad already. When I hit it and went over, I hit my head on the dirt. The bike landed on my back. I was seriously screwed up. Well, that's. That's not really a prank. No, that's horrifying. I mean, at least that's a prank. They're the original jackass, these idiots. Yeah, that's what.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They are. No, seed is.

[James Pietragallo]

Not good. No, they're the original jackass. That's all it is. If they film that, they'd be famous.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Right now. I mean, we all were. I mean, we all did. You know what I mean? The 80s was just all. All jackass all.

[James Pietragallo]

The time. We had jarts that we just threw at.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Each.

[James Pietragallo]

Other. Yeah. Giant metal spears. And we're like, ha. Take that, motherfucker. And if you didn't move, you were stabbed with a giant dart. That's how.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It worked. Everybody had a dartboard in their house. Plastic darts didn't come around till.

[James Pietragallo]

The 90s. No. And that's inside the ones outside. Those things weighed like six pounds. And they'd go right in your rib cage. So the boys also got into weed. They got young Jesse into some weed as well. They would take shit from their dad. Their dad, I guess, was in some kind of band and would hang out. Playing in the band on the front porch like Dwight Yocum and Sling Blade. We're having a show concert tonight. Oh, Jesus. Getting the band back together here. By junior high, they were smoking weed and doing all that kind of shit. John started selling weed in high school as well. Jesse said they were always scheming to get rich. I remember going over to their house and they were going to make half catnip, half marijuana and sell bags to get rich.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Catnip? Catnip. Can you.

[James Pietragallo]

Smoke catnip? I don't know. At least use oregano or something. That is non. That's for human consumption. Put something in there that's for.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Human consumption. That's not even meant for cats to.

[James Pietragallo]

Eat, right? No, just play with it in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The bag. Yeah, they put it in bag. I mean, I know they sell it to you and just sprinkle it on.

[James Pietragallo]

The floor. My cousin got me a plant and she liked that too. Yeah, yeah. They come in like little catnip plants you can get. So Jesse was into wrestling since the third big great. I don't mean off the top rope, I mean on the mat, school wrestling. And John got mad because John's dad started calling Jesse champ. John got jealous because. So Jesse said he had a problem with that. So much so that he started wrestling himself. But he wouldn't make it through the school year in high school. He went through half the year and quit. He wasn't a finisher. He was more of a quitter. The easy buck. A more immediate gratification type of person. Wrestling's a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Tough sport. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

It is. You gotta stay with it. And if you're not that kind of person, you're not gonna run around in your sweatpants in 105 degree weather to lose 6 pounds unless you're really into it. And that describes the difference between people, is if you're an immediate gratification type person, your life always turns to shit. Because all the good shit takes a while to get to and to build to and to try for. And immediate gratification just isn't realistic. So about 1982, they said that is when he started. John started hanging out with a criminal basically here, because he's a few years older than Tina. And he said Jesse called him a straight up criminal named Michael who taught John the techniques of breaking into homes. Yeah, he said Michael always, always Had a wad of money like this and a wad of weed like this. About the size of a softball. He made his fist. He said he'd break into houses. He'd claim to have a sixth sense, which is a lot of where John started getting his weird.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Mojo mind.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, boy. Yeah. Jesse said Michael could pick a house off a block and find the one with the most cash or jewelry or drugs available for him to steal. He said if there was any criminal influence, that was it. He said, I knew he had a ton of other friends, probably just like that, but when I came on the weekends and the few people I did meet, I remember Michael and thinking, geez, man, this guy, he looks like he's everybody's hero, but he smells like something's rotten in Denmark. So kind of a Eddie Haskell type.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Too.

[James Pietragallo]

Here. Yeah. So his first contact with police being his junior year of High School, 1982. So 16, 17 at this point. Yeah. So he's about seven years older than Tina. And this is when he was caught smoking weed with friends in a parking lot. Which, dude, the amount of times I did that and didn't get caught is remarkable. So the amount of times I could have boxing. Yeah, I can't be upset with anybody for that. So that's what happened. They said that everybody knew about John, basically, that he was kind of the area fuck up. He had, you know, he had a lot. He would be a burglar, a trespasser, as we'll talk about, a lot of small crimes, a lot of little things. And members of his family worked in various capacities at the local courts. And that helped him out too, a little bit. So he didn't really get in trouble a lot when he should have. And he knew a lot about the justice system and how to go around some shit. He knew to take plea bargains and plead to minor crimes just to get them.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Over with.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, boy. He knew he'd get better deals that way. They said that basically he annoyed the cops, the cops were annoyed by his existence. And he would even taunt them. That's the other thing. And John's mother and his family would back them up, claiming that the police were out to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get him.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, boy. That's the other thing. So he would go in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There, parent on the kid's side.

[James Pietragallo]

That's dangerous. It is. Well, I mean, it's. It's. You have to be, if it's true, if they really are fucking with him for no reason. But for sure there's reasons they're. That they're fucking with him. And we'll talk about. Because he's a criminal, he's a burglar. Yes, but they said, nope. And also the family would put up. They wouldn't cooperate with the police at all to help out at all and everything like that. They. The cops would try to find him and they'd say, nope, he moved out of state. He's not here. He's a child. Where'd he go? Where's he going? Or, nope, he moved to Denver where he's not home, or I don't know where he is. Or they just wouldn't help at all. His family did not think that this was John's fault at all. He thought the police were picking on him. John is part. I believe. I don't know what. He's part Latino, part Native American. That's how he puts himself. That's how he says he is. So I don't know. He says that's why the cops are.

[Jimmy Whisman]

After him. Oh, it's a.

[James Pietragallo]

Racial thing. Yes, but the problem is it doesn't. The actual acts that he does kind of warrant his police attention. At one point, police responded to a burglary in which a woman woke up and a man was standing above her bed. And he said, be quiet, I got a knife and I'll cut you. The woman screamed and the man fled. An officer arrived and chased the man and caught him. And.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It'S John.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, boy. Standing over a woman's bed with.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A knife. A.

[James Pietragallo]

Knife, yeah. That is terrifying. So the problem is the woman, because it was dark, couldn't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Identify him. She saw a body with.

[James Pietragallo]

A knife. That's it. She couldn't identify him, even though the cops chased him and tackled him and caught him and knew he was. He said, that's not where I was coming from. I was running from somewhere else. I was running because you were there. And there's no way to charge him if she can't identify him. So he gets away with shit like that, you know, he also did things alone, always, which was smart, because then there's nobody to tell on you if they get caught, which is always smart. He also would never talk about his criminal activities either. Wouldn't tell his friends, oh, I broke into some lady's house last night, stood over in bed with a knife, which is smart. That's also scary that a teenager already figured that out, that you need to be that kind of a criminal. Yeah. It's interesting. One person said John was a guy who always worked at night. If you look back to his Crimes about ones he was suspected of. Except for a couple of stalkings, it was at night. John is a nightcrawler type of guy. Part of that is concealment. It's easier to hide in the dark. He's a total, absolute coward. Could be Richard Ramirez. Yeah, absolutely. And a coward. He's afraid. The woman screamed and he.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ran away. He's.

[James Pietragallo]

A coward. He's a coward. The police would set up stings. They would follow him at night, but they could never get him. He was smart. He had a sense for when cops were.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Watching him. The child is.

[James Pietragallo]

Outsmarting them. He just had a sense. He's got a real criminal sickness sense to him that most people don't have. One of the cops here, this was a detective named Keith Olson. He said, there were a couple of times I was involved where we'd have three or four guys on foot or in cars late at night following him because he'd always be seen walking around. Even though he had a vehicle. He takes off walking in neighborhoods.

[Jimmy Whisman]

At night. Smart. Yeah. Don't get.

[James Pietragallo]

The tag. No. But also suspicious as fuck how many people with a car go walking around neighborhoods.

[Jimmy Whisman]

At night. Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying, but yeah, on site, though, you just go. Neighbor taking a walk. You know what I mean? But if you see a car pull up, then it's so much.

[James Pietragallo]

More identifiable. Totally. But it's also super suspicious for people to be walking around at night. That's just people don't generally walk around by themselves.

[Jimmy Whisman]

At.

[James Pietragallo]

Night. Yeah. Unless they're like on a mission, going somewhere. He's just kind.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Of wandering. Or it's a neighborhood where you just walk.

[James Pietragallo]

A.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Lot. Really? It's.

[James Pietragallo]

Not that. But this is like also like 11 o' clock.

[Jimmy Whisman]

At night. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

That'S bad. There's not normal people. Yeah. So July 83, Michael here, his friend Michael, broke into a home in Greeley and John came to help him, apparently. Police noted that a man came home to find someone reaching through his bedroom window, taking a five dollar bill from a dresser. Oh, what a criminal mastermind.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That is. Yeah. You set a $5 bill within arm's reach of.

[James Pietragallo]

The window. That's pretty. And someone walked in a window. I'm gonna reach in and grab that five spot. All of this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is crazy. Look, there's.

[James Pietragallo]

A five. I'm taking it, I'm taking it. So this man said he chased him out of the house and hit him with a shovel three times before the man took off. Which God damn, I would have liked to have heard that. Clang. Clung. Clung. Wow. Leaving, I guess the man took off and left a motorcycle in the driveway. Oh, the motorcycle's registered to Michael, right? That's not great. Later that night, John called the police to report that he'd borrowed his friend's motorcycle that night and it was stolen earlier. Oh, diabolical. Michael came in and said, fuck, I left my motorcycle there. They're gonna catch me. He said, not.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So fast. I.

[James Pietragallo]

Got this. I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Got this. I'm.

[James Pietragallo]

A genius. Yep. When the police arrived to take the report, Michael was there, noticeably limping as well, beaten with a shovel. John's mother told the cops that she had taken both boys to Milliken, a small town about 10 miles south of Greeley.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That night.

[James Pietragallo]

Uh huh. So that she's trying to give him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

An alibi. She's an.

[James Pietragallo]

Asshole. Yeah. Yeah. Michael, though, insisted he hadn't gone to Milliken with them because he's a moron. Michael's not as good at this as lying to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The cops. No, I've never.

[James Pietragallo]

Been there. And so the police arrested Michael, and he had to serve 90 days in jail. Now, $5 through a window, that's one thing. But he's got another obsession here, John, and it's peeping. He likes to peep, which is bad. That leads to worse things. Became a habit early, Jesse said. He said. John, in high school, asked Jesse to check out women taking showers at the University of Northern Colorado in a dorm where the showers were on the ground floor. Now it's Porky's we've turned into what is happening. Literally. That's like from an 80s.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Teen movie. Yeah, it's literally from a movie. I mean, it's crime from fucking.

[James Pietragallo]

Years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Be. Yeah. It's such a stupid thing.

[James Pietragallo]

To do. Yes. And for. In like 1983, that was considered, and I'm using giant air quotes, Good clean fun. Good clean fun. That was considered boys being boys, trying to look at some titties. Obviously we know better now, but that's, you know, that's what it was considered at the time. But it's different to travel somewhere to do it would be.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A lot. I mean, like, there are times that I've got, like, I just. You just get an urge to see titties. Thank God for the Internet. You can just look up titties and be.

[James Pietragallo]

Like, satisfied. Yes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Thank you. Or go to a strip.

[James Pietragallo]

Club or your friend's dad's stack of club magazines. Any of those things. There's lots of ways to satiate the need to See tits. We are men. Once in a while a thought pops in our brain that says, I need to see tits. It just happens. I don't care what guy it is. You're the nicest guy, your pastor. We all want to see tits. It's just we can't help it. It's a biological imperative. So the thing is to not do it in an.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Illegal fashion. Jesus Christ. It's so. I don't know why. I wanna know why. But I.

[James Pietragallo]

Got nothing. There would be no people on earth if we didn't wanna.

[Jimmy Whisman]

See tits. That's a.

[James Pietragallo]

Good point. Yeah, there would.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Be none. It's the reason that shit.

[James Pietragallo]

Keeps.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Happening. But the Internet's probably saved countless victims to people.

[James Pietragallo]

Back then. You could've, this is the 80s, went and rented a porn from a fucking video store. He could have bought. He could have bought a hustler. You know what I mean?

[Jimmy Whisman]

There was. He could have gone into any liquor store, looked at the tits and not bought the mag.

[James Pietragallo]

And left. Not even. Yeah, you don't even have to look. You don't have to buy it. So this is, this is a. This is a power thing. This is a weird. This is a different thing that this peep. Because I've never had the desire to go peeping. You know what.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I mean? I've never had the desire to see an unknowing person me seeing.

[James Pietragallo]

Their tits. That's crazy. Half the fun is that they want to show you their tits. That's half. That's all the fun. That's half the fun. Well, half the fun is that the other half is seeing the tits. So. Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more.

[Jimmy Whisman]

About Fume. Oh, try Fum. T R Y F U M.

[James Pietragallo]

Dot com. Oh, that's right. Fum is a flavored air device designed to help people quit vaping and smoking by breaking the hand to mouth pattern. These are excellent too. It's simple, natural, and honestly, kind of genius here. No nicotine, no batteries, no vapor. Just a weighted, twisty, fidget friendly tool that gives your hands something better to reach for when cravings show up. And that's cool thing. It's so easy. Yes. The flavors are so good. They have this peach and it's just peach flavored air. Yeah, you just sit and draw in and it gives you that feeling that you want and just taking your hand away. And it's weighted too, so it really does. It feels good in your hand. It's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Really awesome. Tangerine is Nice. You can sit and.

[James Pietragallo]

Use it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Oh yeah. It's.

[James Pietragallo]

So great. Yeah. And the, the new Year's resolutions, they fail all the time because you try to remove a habit without replacing it with.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Something else. You just try.

[James Pietragallo]

Something good. Fume is the replacement. This flavored air fidget device lets you satisfy the urge to reach for something without any nicotine or vapor or batteries. Just clean natural flavors and fidget friendly design that feels good to use this January, don't just try to quit. Upgrade the habit loop. Reach for fume instead. And yeah, you want to fidget around and you grab the fume and it feels right in your hand and it really does help you kind of quash that craving. It really does. And you know, we're always trying to quit things like that. So this is excellent for us and I was so happy they sent us it to us. Honestly, it's amazing and I really like it. Feels like it's nice. It's, it's. The peach is like, it's sweet but it's not that like over sweet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It's just. And it's got bulk to it, so it doesn't feel like your hand is just empty. You know what.

[James Pietragallo]

I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Mean? Exactly. It.

[James Pietragallo]

Satisfies everything. Got that feeling. To kick off the new year, Fume is doubling down on helping people break old habits. Literally. For January only, every core you order is doubled. Order a pack, you get two. Order three, you get six. Way more flavor, way more moments to reach for something better. On top of that, when you grab a journey pack, you'll also get a free gift just for using our code Small Town Murder. But Double Core's offer disappears the moment January ends. No extensions, no exceptions. So jump on this now and don't wait head to try fume. That's T-R-Y-F-U-M.com and use the code Smalltown Murder to claim your double cores and your free gift before this new year's offer closes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

For good. Now back to.

[James Pietragallo]

The show. Hey everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you a great way to look better.

[Jimmy Whisman]

With Quince. Quince.com, q U I-n c e.com It's a.

[James Pietragallo]

New year. We got colder days. This is. This is the time when your winter wardrobe has to deliver for you. If you're craving a winter reset, start with pieces truly made to last season after season. That's where you go to Quince. Quince brings together premium materials, thoughtful design and enduring quality so you stay warm, look sharp and feel your best all season long. They have everything you need at Quint's. That's the deal here. They got men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather and suede outerwear that actually will hold up to daily wear and still look good. I got a cool leather jacket. Yeah, all the time. It's great. Love all the stuff I've gotten from quints. The shirts I've gotten from them. But their outerwear, the coats, the jackets, that's where you need to go. Their outerwear is especially impressive. Down jackets, wool coats, Italian leather outerwear that keeps you warm when it's actually cold. Each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. Now you go, well, why is. How is it so inexpensive if it's such good quality? Real easy. They cut out the. The middleman. There you go. That's. That's it. The middleman's. That's where the markup is. That's the big deal. All those traditional markups. And Quince just delivers the same quality as luxury brands at a much smaller fraction of the price. The result is classic styles that you'll love and that hold up year after year. We love Quince. We order from there all the time. All the time. Just got a box from Quince with a bunch more stuff. I got some, some cool, some cool sweatshirt Jack jacket type deals. I got really good stuff. You got to get. Go to Quince and check it out. Refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comsmalltown murder for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.comq u I n c e.com small town murder. Free shipping and 365 day return. Quince.comsmalltown murder now back to the show. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you about the safest sponsor there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is. SimpliSafe. SimpliSafe.com S I M P.

[James Pietragallo]

L I Safe.com we love SimpliSafe. We love it. They've been around for years with us. And that is because it's from the heart. It's great. It's just a great home security system. You can't beat it. You know how, like at certain times, you know, you hear maybe cases on small town murder and you're like, oh, boy, I better double check the locks on everything. And, you know, do all of that stuff. We do that too. Yeah, except what you don't Want is a home security system that only goes off after someone's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Already inside. I don't.

[James Pietragallo]

Want that. That's useless. What's that gonna do? Yeah, your whole family's in trouble. Yeah, they're making. Stacking your family up like Cord would, stealing all your stuff. And the alarm, it's woo, woo, woo, big deal. Great. That's. You don't need that. Traditional security systems basically say, hey, someone got in. Simplisafe home security is much different because it's built to stop crimes before they start. They're gonna prevent this stuff. They've got this double layer of defense. They have their AI powered cameras that can spot a threat, a real threat, while they're still outside your home and alert the live monitoring agents. And those agents, they don't just watch. They're. They'll jump in, they'll yell at him, hey, moron, get out of here. Hey, criminal, go away. The cops are on the way. They can actually talk to the intruder, let them know they're on camera and that police are on the way. And they can even trigger a loud alarm siren, a spotlight if they need to. So it's not all on you to see a notification in time and go, oh, wow, someone's in my house. We love Simplisafe. It protects our homes, our offices. We've used it for years and it's just the best there is. It's time. Top notch. You're going to feel better. Get yourself some peace of mind with the best home security system you're going to get. You're going to get and it. Simplisafe has been named one of the best home security systems by U.S. news & World Report for five years in a row, trusted by over 5 million people to help protect their homes, including us. So protect your home with SimpleLife and get 50% off any new system. For a limited time, just go to Simplisafe. That's S I M P L I safe dot com. Small. There's no.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Safe like Simplisafe. Now back.

[James Pietragallo]

To the show. That's the best part of it. So Jesse said, I was like, no, I don't want to go there. What if you get caught? So several months later, John asked him again. Jesse was a senior in high school at the time. John had dropped out of high school after his junior year, but got his ged. Jesse said, I didn't think it was serious. Then talking about the peeping, he said, I thought it was something he stumbled upon. I don't know. I didn't think a lot of it. When you're in high school, people say a lot of crazy shit. You say a lot of stupid things. I think he was actually.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Doing.

[James Pietragallo]

It, though. Yikes. Yeah, you say a lot of dumb. People tell stories about. I've done all this great. It's all this, like, posturing to look tougher or look older or look. Whatever it is, you know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What I mean? Yeah. Many times a year, somebody say, I'm going to buy a car this weekend. And then they show up on the.

[James Pietragallo]

Bus on Monday. Or that hot girl they had that just torrid affair with in Canada when their parents took them to Vancouver on vacation. There's always that bullshit, you know what I mean? I remember one of my friends had one of those girls and he. The name that they give the girl is always the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Funniest thing too. Samantha or.

[James Pietragallo]

Tabitha or something. No, no, no. He named her Chastity. And we're like, what? We're like, listen, we know you made this chick up. Why would you call her Chastity? Then he's like, I didn't make her up. Yes, you did. The one girl you bang is a chick named Chastity you met on vacation. Give me a break, dude. In South Carolina. I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Don'T think so. Because they're always the opposite.

[James Pietragallo]

Of their names. Yeah, clearly. I think that's what he.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Was.

[James Pietragallo]

Going for. Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't a dumb guy. So Jesse would later say that. Jesse. Or later. John would later confess to Jesse that he had in his evening prowls, gone into Open University of Northern Colorado house parties where he'd find girls passed out on beds.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In the.

[James Pietragallo]

Basements. And what? And he would take off their clothes, climb into bed with them, and eventually would rape these passed out girls as well. Jesse said that he's pretty sure John raped at least two.

[Jimmy Whisman]

UNC coeds that.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh, God damn. That's. This.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is the escalation.

[James Pietragallo]

This is terrible. Well, if I could see it, why can't I touch it? Well, if I can touch it, why can't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is horrifying. And they'll hate it if I do it. So.

[James Pietragallo]

If they're unaware. Unconscious. Yeah. Which is pathetic. So crazy. Jesse said John's relationships. He had relationships with women during the this time too, with young ladies. And they were. They said it was all consuming. One to the next. There was no casual. It was, this is the person, I love her, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then on to the next one. This is the person. Yep. His first girlfriend, a girl named Jenny, moved in with him when they lived in his mother's basement, like it was their own apartment down there. Jesse said that he saw a new side of John when this young lady moved in in 1981, by the way, when.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They were.

[James Pietragallo]

Six. Good Lord. This is the house where they allow their 16 year old's 16 year old girlfriend to move into the basement.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's this house. And what house did she come from that they're like, go ahead and move.

[James Pietragallo]

In with him. Exactly. A worse place than this, which sounds like shit. And where she comes from is probably worse. Yeah. Jesse said after she moved in, he was super, super jealous, wanting to make sure that she was never there alone. They were always fighting, yelling, like screaming and yelling or they.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Were having sex. Good Lord. Vol. It's.

[James Pietragallo]

Hot and cold. Yep, hot and cold. Which is a lot of times when you're young, you think that's what it's supposed to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Be.

[James Pietragallo]

It's passion. Yeah. Right, because we have passion. Yeah. So she broke up with him in 82. But that doesn't mean you can get.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Away from John. No, because we've loved hard and fucked harder. I've seen what you do and now I can't picture you doing that.

[James Pietragallo]

With somebody else. That and John just doesn't really care what other people are looking for or want. It's more about what he's about. Well, Jennifer told a cop later on he was a freak. He was almost physically abusive. He had a psychotic tendency. He was disorganized, extremely paranoid. He thought people were following him all the time. Well.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They were, actually. That also feels like.

[James Pietragallo]

An FBI profile. It really does. The fact is though, he was right about people following him all the time. The cops were following him all the time. But she said that he became physically violent with her and threatened to kill her when she decided.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To leave him. That's.

[James Pietragallo]

Not almost abusive. That's abusive. And that's at 16 he figured out good Lord. So to get away from him, she moved to Pueblo to finish her senior year of high school. She had to move to a terrible, awful little dusty shithole town to get away from this man. Jimmy, if you could see if you were in the studio, Jimmy just grabbed his chest. That's so bad for her. Like my grandmother, if you told her a baby was sick, she'd go, ah, my kikatsa. My mother. Poor baby. Oh my. Yo. She had to move to start praying in Italian Pueblo. God damn it. And he said, she said that wasn't far enough though. She said, he stalked me all the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Way down there. She has to go to.

[James Pietragallo]

Raton, New Mexico.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It.

[James Pietragallo]

Gets worse. She. She.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Moved to Wyoming. Oh. She went.

[James Pietragallo]

The other direction. And a new girl had moved.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Into her.

[James Pietragallo]

Apartment. Oh, no. That girl for her. Good for her, but bad for the new girl. That woman called the police on April 13, 1983, to report a man trying to get in. The cops just called John. They just were like, john, why were you there, dude? They know what he's doing. Like, it's. It's to the point where they don't even have to investigate shit. They just know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Who it.

[James Pietragallo]

Is. Oh, boy. He said, yeah, I did go over there. They knew it. He said he'd gone over to retrieve the keys to the car that he and Jenny owned and to retrieve a watch of his. He said he didn't know Jenny had left, so they didn't charge him with anything. They were like, well, I guess that's a mistake. Seems like a. You know, it happens. April. April 25, 1983, the cops contact John again, who admitted, yes, I went to Jennifer's apartment the month before, but that was only because she accused me of breaking into her home. So I decided to actually make her right if she wanted to be right. He told police that he denied this. He denied this to her, and they started to argue. So he told the cops that he decided to leave and his new car was running in the alley. He said Jenny was running after him, attacking him, and he said he left when the neighbors come out. Now district attorney declines to prosecute this case at all. A few months before Jenny had returned to Greeley, John was working at a Taco.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Bell in.

[James Pietragallo]

Greeley. Hell, yeah. Oh, boy. He had just turned 18. And in the week leading up to this, employees would call police complaining about a man they believed to be John making several harassing phone calls, including telling his female manager on one of the calls, I'm going to kill you. That's not a threat. I'm going.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To kill.

[James Pietragallo]

You. Oh, boy. And they found out it was John, and he got fired. Yeah. So he.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is not good. No. This. And he's 18, and he's exhibiting behavior that Ted Bundy behavior. Yeah. If it doesn't stop, this is gonna.

[James Pietragallo]

Get so bad. Oh, God. If he doesn't go to. If he doesn't have a hardcore wall, I mean, a consequence of something bad, something to correct and a lot of therapy and everything else, this is not gonna go well. He needs, like, a prison sentence with psychological intervention and everything else. He's a mess. So he does some More peeping. He'd spy on women from outside their houses. Just watch them as they did. Shit. He would set up chairs outside of windows to watch. He had ladders he would set up to just watch people walk.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Around their houses. He's rigging the town so that he.

[James Pietragallo]

Can see titties. Titties. Or sometimes.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just watching them. Just.

[James Pietragallo]

Watch them cook. Yeah. Their nightly routines just. He likes that they don't know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That he's there.

[James Pietragallo]

That's so wild. He's a fucking creep. In October 1983, he was contacted as a suspicious person in the Joslin's parking lot at the Greeley Mall. A month later, in the Holiday Inn parking lot, police found John in a car. Well, it was his car and the windows were all fogged up. So they're like, oh, there's a couple of teenagers getting it on in here. And they go up. It's just John by himself with his pants down. Oh, boy, he's masturbating so vigorously. He steamed up the car. He flipped the windows the same as two people fucking in it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That's a lot. He friction burned.

[James Pietragallo]

The fucking window. They said, what happened? And he said, I spilled something on my pants. Well, we figured that. Yeah, we could have told you that. That's what he told them. He told the officers, and the officers knew of several reports of indecent exposures in that parking lot at the time. But that's what he told them. When he took off his jacket, his pants had been pulled to his knees and his pants were dry. They said, there's nothing on your pants. What are you talking about? And he said, oh, well, I'm waiting for a friend. My pants must have just fell down to my knees while I was in a car sitting there. A couple weeks later, they contacted the police. Contact Sandoval. John again in the parking lot of the Greeley national bank after an employee who lived in an apartment building nearby reported seeing a man dressed in dark clothing walking around and going to the building second floor, where there had been a report of a burglary. In February 84, police again found him in the Holiday Inn in a report listed as an indecent exposure. Okay, talk to him again. In April, he was contacted again at the Greeley national bank in a report of a suspicious activity by a female employee. So he has his kind of spots that he goes to the Holiday.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Inn, the bank. Old John has. How did he get here? I don't get it. I don't understand what the deal. Just one dude told him how to do things, and he did it.

[James Pietragallo]

And liked it. Well, he never had a boundary. He did whatever he wanted. His dad, let's face it, is a fucking scumbag. His dad's a scumbag fucking biker who leaves Easy Rider magazines around for his kids to fucking. Yeah, he's that guy. So, yeah, this is what happens. You know, my friend with the coke dad, he's just does like fucking drywalling, you know. That's the. That's the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Best case scenario. Yeah. I mean, at least he's not in.

[James Pietragallo]

The holiday import. That's what I mean. That's best case scenario. He's got a couple of kids and you know eeks by.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On a breathing so heavy he fogged his own.

[James Pietragallo]

Windows. That's unbelievable. Then they looked at him as a suspect in the disappearance of a young lady named Janelle Matthews, who was reported missing on December 26, 1984, and her body.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Was never found. Where did she.

[James Pietragallo]

Go missing from? From this area. But John would prove be. John was proven to be working at a California restaurant at the time, so he was actually cleared from that one. Now 1985 comes around, she doesn't even. Tina doesn't meet him for another like five, six years. Think about that. She has no idea. This is the guy who's wonderful. Come meet my cop dad at the Burger King. No idea. So by 85, he's 20 years old and he was accused of sitting outside of businesses, masturbating in the open while women walk past his car. Now it's not even titties. It's just a woman that doesn't know I'm jerking off at her. This is jerking off at somebody? Yeah.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not to me.

[James Pietragallo]

That's so aggressive. This is at them, which is weird. I've never jerked.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Off.

[James Pietragallo]

At anything. No. Two things. Yes, but.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Not at things. I close my own eyes and shut the lights off. I don't even want.

[James Pietragallo]

To see it. It's a difference between laughing with and at somebody. You know.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What I mean? Kick the dog out of the room. I don't want.

[James Pietragallo]

Anybody seeing this. This is horrifying. You don't want to know this. A blue El Camino. He was often reported seen driving also. That's where he's sitting in his blue El Camino, whacking it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

God damn it. There's always.

[James Pietragallo]

An El Camino. I don't know. Jimmy's like, why'd I buy one of.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Those? Damn it. A trash individual is always driving.

[James Pietragallo]

An El Camino. Well, it was kind of like the cliche like, yeah, look at this fucking dirt bag mullet and his El Camino. That was always the. So police never pursued these cases for some reason of whacking it in the parking lot, I guess because how do you prove he was whacking it? At some point you have to catch him whacking it, really. So In October of 86, he was the chief suspect in a burglary here. A woman reported, this is wild. That John came to her house with her house keys, claiming that he had chased a burglar from her home. And he dropped these keys as he fled. Oh, but he never reported this to the police, however, he just happened to have her keys. The woman's roommate happened to work with John at a local liquor store. They said, you don't find that weird, John? The cops ask him, and he said, yeah, I did think it was ironic that she lived in the same house in which I saw the burglar. Yeah, that was strange. He said, I was just walking to my girlfriend's house when I noticed this burglar fleeing this woman's house with, quote, stuff in his pockets. Oh, yeah, he said, I yelled at him and I chased him. I almost caught him too, but I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Slipped and fell. I fell.

[James Pietragallo]

You know. Keys. Yeah, he dropped these keys, though. They said, well, easy, let's take a lie detector test and we'll know that this, you know. And he said, I can't do that. That's above and beyond. Two days later, he came to the woman's doorstep with a present in her in his hand. He brought her a present. He brought her a necklace. And he said that he felt bad for her and wanted to cheer her up. What?

[Jimmy Whisman]

What the fuck? So I felt bad for her because.

[James Pietragallo]

She was burgled. So I brought her and I couldn't catch the guy getting.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All of her stuff back, and I slipped and fell. I could have got.

[James Pietragallo]

Her shit, but I did.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get her.

[James Pietragallo]

Kitties. Goddamn Reeboks. Yeah, fucking slippery, man. I need better fucking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Soles on these. Yeah, I need something.

[James Pietragallo]

With some grip. Grip. The cops said, yeah, he's probably the burglar and made up this whole thing to try to actually burgle this woman's house and then have sex with her, too. He's trying to get in on her good side. So they tried to locate the girlfriend that he mentioned that he was going to see based off a vague description he gave of where she lived. Doesn't have an address, of course. I just know the house is green and it's sorted.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Down.

[James Pietragallo]

This way. Yeah. They never found anyone that fit that description, obviously. Yeah, no. And they also found there was no one by the name John had given listed in the phone book in Greeley either. You know, doesn't exist is the answer to that. April 1987. The police, they've only. They suspected him of sex related crimes for a long time now, but they don't have any proof. So they don't know what they really kind of. They don't really have much to do. On April 10, 1987, John is at his first day of work with a local trash company. He's 22. The company's name is BFI. And so maybe this is it. Maybe he said, damn it, this is a career. I'm gonna be a garbage man and I'm gonna make good money being.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A garbage man. And that's a huge living. That's a huge waste.

[James Pietragallo]

Management company. Bfi. There you go. So maybe that's what you do. So as a BFI trash truck went across Reservoir Road in West Greeley. West Greeley. A woman jogged by and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Was.

[James Pietragallo]

Attacked by. Whoa. So the woman told police that a man had been hiding in the bushes and jumped out as she passed. This is on his first day of.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Work while the. While a.

[James Pietragallo]

Truck drove by. No, no, no. The truck was somewhere in the area. He parked the truck and went and fucking hid in the bushes. We're alleging here. He jumped out as she passed, quote, driving his hands up her shorts and digging his fingers into her vaginal.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And.

[James Pietragallo]

Anal cavities. Jesus. At the same time. Wow, that's aggressive. He tried to pull her down, but she was able to get away, which is horrifying. She noticed that she had some sort of. That he had some sort of injury to his face. And then moments later, she saw a trash.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Truck driving.

[James Pietragallo]

Away. All right. The woman looked through 368 photographs at the police station, positively.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Identifying John.

[James Pietragallo]

Twice. Oh, wow. So they called John in for an interview. And while awaiting an officer, I guess he had tape on the bridge of his nose, an injury, and he took it off and hit it behind his chair or under his chair. The tape, he stuck it to his chair. And he told police that that was his first day at work. And he was wearing a fatigue jacket, which he'd gotten in the military, even though he's never been in the military. He's never been in the military, but he told the cops that. Then he said, do you wanna know how my nose got messed up?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sure, why not? Give us.

[James Pietragallo]

What you got. That's fucking great. He asked, this is several times he asked to tell the story of his nose during this. He said, well, I was at my dad's house and a gust of wind came up and slammed the door in my face. So.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There.

[James Pietragallo]

You go. Okay. That's what happened. The police don't believe him, but John's co worker provided an alibi for him stating that he was with John that first morning of work all throughout the day, never left his sight the whole day. Which obviously is physically impossible and kind of ridiculous. The district attorney declined to prosecute based on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That.

[James Pietragallo]

Alibi though. Really? Yep. John never came back for day two of the job.

[Jimmy Whisman]

By the way.

[James Pietragallo]

Is that right? Never came back, didn't know it was done. All done, all trashed out. He cited medical problems and quote abuse by the police. He just couldn't bring himself to be.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Out there. Yeah. If I show up to a job and then the very first day they accuse me of rape, what are they gonna accuse me of.

[James Pietragallo]

On day two? Yeah. What's tomorrow, a serial murder? What are you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Accusing me of? What's day two?

[James Pietragallo]

Child. Child rape. Is that it then from where does it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Go from there? Yeah, it's not long before I'm framed with murder. I'm.

[James Pietragallo]

Not coming back. So Next up, late 80s, he has a girlfriend he met while he was working at.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Long.

[James Pietragallo]

John Silver's. Nice. He's got a real.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Career trajectory here. He's not had a good job yet. I mean BFI is pretty close to a.

[James Pietragallo]

Career, but that's. You could have made a career out of that with a GED and you could have been there for 20 years. But in instead he's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Going to bounce back to Long John Silver slinging.

[James Pietragallo]

Them Hush Puppies. Ooh, man. Slinging some fucking fried clams. Clam strip time she moved in with him. This woman known as a pretty redhead is how Jesse described her, only to break up with him shortly after she moved in. So what did John do? He took it super well and just tried to find another relationship. He talked to his friends for a little while. They, they gave him, you know, the guidance that you need as a person to go, yeah, you know what? It's gonna be okay. That's not what happened at all. As a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Matter of fact. You're better than.

[James Pietragallo]

That. Don't worry. Yeah, no, no, no. He ended up sneaking into her parents house and killing her dog. That's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What.

[James Pietragallo]

He did. What? Yeah. Which is insane. Would be a great way to put that. How long did they Date terrifying. I mean, long enough to move in together, but when you're a Long John Silvers in play, things move fast. So that could have been on the first week. It's a fast style, fast lifestyle you got there. My God, it's like being in a band, you know? It's the same kind of shit. Killed her dog, then bragged that he left the dog's collar on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Their back doorknob. Oh, what.

[James Pietragallo]

The fuck, man? A police report documented the event on October 11, 1987, but they got nowhere on the case, and it doesn't end up being prosecuted. Jesse, the cousin, said when he told me that shit, I was like, this guy's fucking crazy. It took till this for you to realize it. After he killed that girl's dog, I think that dude went on a rampage. He told me of at least three or four times when he busted into a house and the cops coming or a guy chased him with a bat or someone calling the cops and he was up a tree or climbing a bush and they.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Couldn'T find him. Yeah, well, Jesse, this is your Frankenstein. You did.

[James Pietragallo]

This. You. You. Well, no, he's a younger cousin. He.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Didn'T do this. But Didn't. Isn't he the one that showed him how to.

[James Pietragallo]

Break.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Into shit? No. Oh, that was Eric or some shit like Michael, his.

[James Pietragallo]

Friend Michael, Right. This is his younger cousin. He's like two years younger than him. So he. He's actually the one guiding Jesse. You know, John's the one. He's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Looking up to. John, this is.

[James Pietragallo]

Too much now. Yeah, you're a fucking lunatic. Yeah, Jesse said, quote, he started calling himself the Shadow because he'd gotten away from the cops multiple times. You dickhead. You're giving yourself, like, a superhero name. Yeah, he's sick. He said the Greeley police were bumbling Barney. Fucking idiots. He's getting crazier in his own mind from calling himself that. I mean, who the fuck makes up a name for themselves? John says that's the. Yeah, you don't get to nickname yourself. You just don't. By this time, he was dangerous, obviously. Jesse said. He said the only contact he ever had with John from this point is only when he needed weed, because John sold weed, too, on the side. John had a grow operation in his house where he also kept his massive collection of, quote.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nordic, like, swords. Oh, boy, he's.

[James Pietragallo]

Got that, too. He's a sword guy. He's a. What else? Lizards. What other thing are. What other weirdo thing do you do? You know, he said it sounds like his doors are divided with those hanging beads. Yeah. All of his rooms are. No doors, just those things. That's what it feels like. He said, quote, physically, this is Jesse. Physically, I wouldn't want to mess with him. Mentally, I didn't even want to go there with the guy because he was crafty and intelligent and he might be thinking you're plotting on him. If you say anything, he'd take it wrong and you might be the next guy on his list. He's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A terrifying man. He might be the first guy on his list because he hasn't hurt anybody other than that dog. But, yeah, women, right?

[James Pietragallo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You never.

[James Pietragallo]

Know. Accelerating fast. He's got swords and he breaks into houses and he kills dogs. He's capable of anything. If you can kill a dog, you're capable of just about anything. Not in, like an old yeller way where you live on a farm and they have rabies. I'm talking like, I'm gonna kill this fucking dog. Yeah. So in August 1988, John was accused of setting a man's shed on fire, then pointing a gun.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In his face. Okay, so he's escalating to arson and animal cruelty. Yes, and assault with the deadly weapon. If the man charged him, he'd.

[James Pietragallo]

Have killed him. And he accused the man of.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Stealing.

[James Pietragallo]

From him. Okay. The victim requested John not be prosecuted because he was scared of him. He just didn't want to deal with it anymore. A month later, John's involved in a bar fight. He was prosecuted for felony menacing for cutting the victim's hand in the fight. John told the cops he was jumped in the bar and was able to disarm the victim of a broken pool cue. Before fleeing, he said he threw the cue out his van window. John did ask for an attorney. Once he saw police with the pool cue at the police station going, oh, we have it right here, stupid. This is your weapon. Having refused to go to the hospital after complaining of chest pains, this is what he does. He's 23. I'm having a big heart attack. John insisted after seeing the pool cue that he'd be taken to the hospital. Now I gotta go to the hospital. He complained that he was suddenly too weak and needed an ambulance, too. Like, he couldn't even walk to the car to go to the hospital. An officer took John to the hospital in the back of a patrol car and said he watched as John forced himself to throw up. Once at the hospital, John pretended to pass out. When the officers tried to help him up, he Screamed. He screamed, quote, please, please don't let him hit me anymore. To the passing security guard. The cops, they're like, security guards. Like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Those are cops.

[James Pietragallo]

They're beating me. I ain't got shit to do with this. He then pretended to be unconscious in the hospital, and an attending physician said he had nothing more than a bruise. They helped him back into the police car. He spit vomit at one of them and smiled. What? One of the cops? And he eventually pleaded guilty to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Third degree assault. Yeah, that's.

[James Pietragallo]

Assault for sure. No, no, not for that. For.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The pool cue. Oh, they didn't charge him for that. On.

[James Pietragallo]

The police officer? I guess not. Or they dropped it. He probably. He pled guilty, so I'm sure that was part of the deal. November 1988, he reported being the victim.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Of a.

[James Pietragallo]

Burglary. All right. Okay. Police respond to east side Liquors where John is working at around 8am to find John face down on the floor with his hands tied behind his back and his face all bloody and $4,249 missing. Uh. Oh, yeah. The police immediately suspected that John faked this, robbed himself. Yeah, he told the cops that a black man hit him with a club. And he doesn't remember anything. He just pulled the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Goodfellas, walked in. Yeah, can.

[James Pietragallo]

You believe this? Truck's gone. He said he regained consciousness at one point, was able to reach the phone to dial 911, and then he just passed out again. He couldn't take it. His boss, though, agreed with the cops and said this was staged. There's a lot of unanswered questions, very many inconsistencies in John's story. And John was not following protocol and handling the store money he wasn't dropping like he should have been in the safe, all that kind of shit. John was the day manager at.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The liquor store. What, Worked his way up to manager to rob them.

[James Pietragallo]

Of four grand. Not only that, but how terrible a job is this, that this guy's in charge of something, right? Like, what's the employee pool for a liquor store owner to hire from? It's gotta be pathetic. If this is your.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Manager, if that's the guy that you promoted to the best shift and.

[James Pietragallo]

The best position. That's what I mean, it's crazy. He said that he never arrived as early as he did that day. The boss said, what the fuck is that? It's so stupid. But the boss said the only way to get cash into the register without damaging it was to know what button to push. So anyway, the cops tried to Call John at his home several times afterwards to follow up. But he.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just.

[James Pietragallo]

Had disappeared. Right. He said John quit the liquor store shortly.

[Jimmy Whisman]

After that event. One of the cops said.

[James Pietragallo]

$4,000 is enough. Yeah. So where.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Did.

[James Pietragallo]

He.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Go? Where? California.

[James Pietragallo]

Is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That right? Yep. They got four grand. I'm.

[James Pietragallo]

Moving to California. It's a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Brand new day. He's going that stretches.

[James Pietragallo]

Like a week and a half there.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Even in 89. Two months.

[James Pietragallo]

First and last. And good God, he's 24 and maybe staying at that shitty motel where there's gunshots on Sunset. That we did. For your stupid opinions. Yeah, he went to California for work and, you know, to run from the cops essentially after a whole lot of shit here. But they end up, by the way, later on they're going to find a lot of stuff from when he left. He was a suspect in a bunch of burglaries. And later on they're going to find a bunch of shit they were looking for in his van in his California apartment. Yeah. So he's trying to just. He wanted to take the heat off of himself and start over. Clean slate. So he got a job at Shaffer Jewelry in Los Angeles. Why? That shows. Back then though, you didn't know. You just didn't know anybody. They showed whatever they wrote on their application. That's the law. What do you fucking know? There he met a woman named Nora Lawson here. I guess he would learn while she browsed the cabinets of jewelry under his watch. Registered vehicles in the state of California. So he befriended her under the guise of help in registering his vehicle. Hey, can you help me? So Lawson later told the cops that she and John agreed to meet at her House on May 18, 1989, to discuss the procedures for transferring his Colorado license plates to his van in California. Millions of people move to California. They all figure out how to go to the dmv. Not this guy. So the next day she left her house between 9 and 10am when she returned, she caught a glimpse of the van which John had driven to her house the day before. Leaving her house, she goes inside. Her house had been ransacked and she found that jewelry, money, watches and a camera.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Were stolen.

[James Pietragallo]

Inside. Oh, no. John denied the claims, but then confessed when the cops came and visited him at the jewelry store days later and searched his home also during that search. That's when he's found with property listed as stolen in several Greeley burglaries as well. But the Greeley police never followed up with their own charges, even though now they had Proof and could easily charge him. They.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Didn'T do it.

[James Pietragallo]

What's going on? On October 10, 1989, John was convicted of that California burglary and sentenced to. You, sir, they fuck off. Two years in prison. He was paroled in two Greeley in a year. So that's how.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This goes now. He got two years and within. He served 50% of it and was sent back to Colorado. I guess. I mean, California's just like, get the fuck out of here then. So we don't have.

[James Pietragallo]

To deal with. Yeah, we don't have to deal with your scumbag ass. Go ahead. So one of his parole officers said that during one of his visits, he and John began discussing an event recently where a body was found somewhere in southern weld county, about 40 miles south of Greeley. You know, a dead body. And John said, I don't know why they keep finding bodies. They're not that hard to get rid of. And the book says Pyatt, who is the parole officer, remembered that statement piqued his interest. I would hope so. You're his fucking parole officer. When your parolee begins talking of disappearing people, you should pay attention.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To that problem. That one.

[James Pietragallo]

Was rather curious. He said, what do you mean? And John said, I don't want to talk about it. Oh, no, you're going to talk about this shit or I'm going to find something to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Violate you for.

[James Pietragallo]

I've moved on. Yeah. Wow. November 14, 1991. This is when he's seeing Tina, about to get married. One year into his parole in Greeley, police called his parole officer saying that they had John on a trespassing charge. So they contact the parole officer. Police arrived at a Greeley residence on November 14, 1991, to find Bryan Christensen leading John, who was dressed in all black, out from behind the house with a broom. Like, get now scat. Like you do. Like a raccoon hiding behind your garbage cans, I guess. There's a girl named Heidi Paul, a woman who was the object of his peeping. And she said she saw him looking through the windows a week before as well. So somebody saw him and came and shooed him away with a broom. He said, I was just looking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

For my.

[James Pietragallo]

Friend. Yeah, Heidi. Normally, you know, you might knock on a door or call on the phone. I just look in the windows till I find him. That's how I come over.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To people's houses. I look in every window till I.

[James Pietragallo]

Find that man. Till I find.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Him. It's crazy.

[James Pietragallo]

I missed him. I missed Must not be here. His friend's name is Doug Smith. Very creative. A nursing student at unc. He said he had my psych book and I wasn't sure which house was his, so rather than knock on the door, figured I'd watch women through windows. Police took him home. Later they found out that he was registered as a student at Ames Community College. And they did find two Doug Smiths at unc, also University of Northern Colorado. But neither of them knew John. He was cited for third degree trespass and his parole was extended to September 1993. New Year's Day. Marriage. So this is what Tina. This is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

What I.

[James Pietragallo]

Mean. Fucking wow. Yes. This is what I'm saying. I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Know it's a. Ask.

[James Pietragallo]

More questions, ladies. Yup. I know it took an hour to get from the marriage back to the marriage, but you had to see what Tina thinks she's getting herself into and what Tina is actually getting herself. My God, she has no earthly fucking clue any of this.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is.

[James Pietragallo]

Going on. Really. None. She thinks she just met a nice student, is five years, seven years older than her, but who cares, you know?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, he's great. And who's. Who's the ex that came to.

[James Pietragallo]

Call? What was. That's this Renee person we'll talk about. So. Hey, everybody. Just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to shop.

[Jimmy Whisman]

With Thrive.

[James Pietragallo]

Market. Thrive Market.com. that's the one, Jimmy. Thrive Market.com. you will be thriving with Thrive Market. Healthy is hard. We get that. The Thrive Market will help you make it easy. You can just. With the small swaps, little things that you can swap out can help so much. Trusted ingredients and personalized shopping that fits your lifestyle. Thrive Market is the easiest way to make better choices without feeling overwhelmed. All delivered straight to your door. And they really do. They have so much stuff. Just little things you can swap out. Like sour. Can't eat gluten. So they have these awesome chips that are really good that I didn't even know are gluten free. And I'm eating them like crazy. I love their tortilla chips that they have others. The snack stuff, it's so good and not terrible for you. That's what's great. You can actually eat better and do better with Thrive Market. And it's so simple to do. It really is. I mean, it's. You don't want it to feel like all these sacrifices. You want to feel like you're living your life. You work all day, you come home, you want to sacrifice more. No you want to eat something decent. So healthy living, it's not. Doesn't have to be boring, doesn't have to be expensive. Thrive Market will get you where you need to go. If eating better feels overwhelming, that's because you're not shopping in the right place. Yeah. I'm telling you right now. Healthy eating does not have to feel like it's a restrictive diet saying no all the time. Thrive Market makes it easy to say yes to thousands of healthier versions of of your favorites without giving up on taste or breaking the bank. They make it easy. Scan anything with the barcode scanner that they have and it instantly swaps it out for a better version of that. That's so cool. So you don't have to go searching for it. Personalized shopping is also great that they have here. Instead of the struggle of trying to figure out what foods fit your health goals, Thrive Market will do the hard work for you easily. Shop by 90 plus diet and lifestyle filters to find exactly what you want without second guessing. High protein meals, low sugar meals, GLP1 friendly options or gluten free staples. AI powered cart remembers your habits. Cutting decision fatigue out too. You don't have to think because Thrive Market knows what you like. So bring it with you. And also Thrive Market ensures the food you eat has the healthiest quality, the highest quality, the healthiest quality and free of 600 sketchy and ingredients. So every choice is verified by experts and it feels intentional and safe. And it's great. Thrive Market's great. It's an easy way to shop. Really excellent for finding the healthy stuff to switch out. We use it. I think you should use it. Honestly. That's our advice as friends go out and get Thrive Market. Join Thrive Market with our link thrivemarket.com smalltown murder for 30% off your first order plus a free.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Six $60 gift. And now back.

[James Pietragallo]

To the show. They get married. That's New Year's Day 92. Then later that month, first month of marriage. Couldn't be more newlyweds. John was caught peeking into two windows into windows in the area of 15th street and 11th Avenue. Two women who lived in those homes pressed charges and another trespassing charge in municipal court was added to his list. Okay, so somehow from January 92 through March of 93, he manages to stay generally out of trouble here. Then on March 3, 1993, a woman named Wendy noticed that a car continually is behind her as she made her daily stops in downtown Greeley. As she was a sales rep for the Greeley Tribune, the newspaper. She started to get panicked here because she said that the car. She would turn in different spots and make a left here. You know, do, like, evasive driving, and the car would still be following. So she took a turn into the Greeley Tribune parking lot, and she ran inside. John followed her into the lot and parked his car there. He then went inside. He told the cops to place an ad to sell a piano. Oh, that's all he was trying to do? Yeah. I saw her out there. I figured she would know how to place a piano ad, so I followed her and stalked.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Her a bit. I was just gonna make the order with her.

[James Pietragallo]

She's right there. I figured she would just do it on the street, so. Wow. She hid in there till he was gone. When police gave her photos of suspects, she couldn't identify him, though she did get the license plate, which was enough to warrant a harassment charge against him. So more of the piano ad incident here. Tina thinks it's all a big mistake, by the way. Really? Mistaken identity. Yeah. John's arrested this time for stalking a woman through, you know, following in the car and doing all that. Tina? Yeah. Tina said no. She explained to her parents it's totally mistaken identity. They just. She picked out the wrong guy. That's all it is. She said, mary Ellen, this is Tina's mom. He was just going to put an ad in for a piano at the Tribune and wasn't following anybody. We stayed with her. We comforted her. And later I took candy bars and magazines to John while he was in jail. That's Tina's parents. His parole was not revoked, but he did have to spend some time in jail. And Mary Ellen said, we felt sorry for him. We believed him when he said he.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Didn'T.

[James Pietragallo]

Do it. Wow. They said Mike and Mary Ellen supported their daughter, supported John, and Tina was sure John was innocent. And this is ridiculous. This poor man makes her like him more. So he had been attending a therapy group since the summer of 92, which I'm gonna say, yeah, that might have been what kept him out of trouble for the next eight to nine.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Months after that. Was this court ordered, or was this just a.

[James Pietragallo]

Decision he made? Well, I'm not sure about that, but seven days after the incident with where he followed the newspaper girl. Local sexual assault counselor. That's some business card. Hi, local sexual assault counselor.

[Jimmy Whisman]

How are you? Which way.

[James Pietragallo]

Do you consult? Yeah. Yeah. Who are you counseling? Yeah, hopefully the other direction. Mervyn Davies filed a memo with the parole board stating that John had, quote, toxic Secrets, deviant sexual behaviors and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sexual offense cycle. He said, okay, but he saw it. Yeah, he knows what it is. He. He knows he's dead. He's not confessing anything that he did, but he's certainly confessing enough that, that. That doctor knows that.

[James Pietragallo]

This man's dangerous. If he'll say bodies aren't that hard to get rid of to his parole officer, imagine what he'll say to this fucking guy, you know? So he said John was working on his personal cycle of sexual violence, quote, unquote. But he believed that this was all continuing and even escalating on some levels, and noted that John represented a risk to the community. Even now. And his activity starts to pick up after this incident with the Greeley Tribune woman. He'd often just disappear for hours on end. He'd just take off. Tina wouldn't know where the fuck he went, what happened. Tina would call friends at 3 or 4 in the morning looking for John. Have you seen him? I haven't seen him. So that's what's interesting. Now, November 1993, his assault counselor there writes a second memo stating John said he was committed to attending group therapy once he was released from parole. But he never returned, obviously, after he was off parole. He pleaded guilty to misdemeanor harassment of the Greeley Tribune woman in late December 1993. But his parole wasn't extended because it was only a misdemeanor. So his parole is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Over in 9-93. That's amazing. They've changed that, right? If you, if you're on parole, any fucking brush with the law.

[James Pietragallo]

I would think. But it also depends. There's a lot that depends on the discretion of the parole officer. Discretion of a judge, discretion of a lot of different people that goes with that. And it's state to state, it's county, it's all different. So June 1994, John is arrested again. Oh, the cops must really have it in for him. I mean, this poor guy. Jesus, he's just going around, everyone must look.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just like him. The amount of police interaction he's.

[James Pietragallo]

Had is staggering. He might as well have just gotten a fucking badge and a paycheck for the last 15 years because he's at the police station just as much.

[Jimmy Whisman]

As they are. And he's really bad at crime.

[James Pietragallo]

Whether or not. Oh, he's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Terrible at it. But if a percentage of times you get caught or interact with the police, imagine the amount of. He's never not.

[James Pietragallo]

Tugging and peeping. Nope. He has just. He has gall. He just. He has such aggression. So in June 94, he is arrested for stalking two women.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In.

[James Pietragallo]

Douglas County. Okay. A woman reported a man in a green Geo prism, the symbol of success in America. Green prism, the green geoprism. And was following her when she and her friend went to the mall. When they had finished shopping, the woman reported a Hispanic man approached her. Having a little car trouble. The man said to them. When they approached the car, she noticed her tires had been slashed. And the man.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Approached them.

[James Pietragallo]

Again. Oh, boy. She said she and her friend ran back into the mall to call for help. Yeah, it's a total Bundy. He tried to Bundy her. This is fucking crazy. The license plate of the car he drove was listed to Tina. Oh, yeah. When police questions. So they. Cops.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Called.

[James Pietragallo]

Her up. Yeah. Hey, why was your car here? She lied for him. What, to get him out of it? Yeah. She doesn't want her husband going to jail. So then 1994, a female employee of State Farm, this is In July of 94 of State Farm, had reported a man stalking and following her all over town. She said this had been going on.

[Jimmy Whisman]

For two.

[James Pietragallo]

Years. Oh, boy. She'd been being stalked by.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The.

[James Pietragallo]

Same person. Yeah. This woman reported seeing the man several times. Quote, sometimes months would go by and I wouldn't notice him watching me. I just wanted God to protect me. He was making my life miserable. So he's going to plead no contest to a misdemeanor harassment charge in 1995 and get a suspended sentence, meaning if he just stays out of trouble, he won't get any jail time. But instead of staying out of trouble, he continued harassing this woman, same woman, through the summer of 1995. And that's when Tina is going to catch up to all this. We'll talk about that. Now, Tina had been calling Jesse for months because the first person she calls when she can't find John is Jesse because that's his best friend and his cousin wondering where her husband was and all that kind of shit. Now he's facing all these harassment charges and everything else. And Tina starts asking people he knows and people they know together, why am I not enough for him that he has to go around stalking women? She takes it like.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah, personally, this is a slight.

[James Pietragallo]

To our relationship. She now nicknamed him something to her friends as well. He gave him his quote, not the shadow, which is a cool name, instead, the panty sniffer, which is not as cool of a name. That's not a nickname you give yourself. You know what I'm saying? I like Tina. Tina's fun, she's good.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Shit, this dude. Yeah, that's the one that the newspaper gives you.

[James Pietragallo]

As an insult. That's the insult one. He's like, how about the Shadow? And they're like, how about the panty sniffer?

[Jimmy Whisman]

How's that sound? Police are on the case for the west side panty sniffer. And he's pounding.

[James Pietragallo]

On his desk. Fucking. How about the micropenis? Panty sniffer. How's that? That's got a ring to it. What do.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You say? So the panty.

[James Pietragallo]

Sniffer. Ah, Tina. Oh, my goodness. At first she would defend him, saying that he suffered from a disease, he's got something wrong with him.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He'S in therapy. But then as he's a sexual deviant.

[James Pietragallo]

That'S the thing. And as the cases begin to really pile up, like, yeah, snowfall on a winter's day. She's got like, this is bad. So she's decides that she's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Gonna.

[James Pietragallo]

Leave here. Yeah. Jesse remembers her crying on his shoulder that July, knowing what he knew about his cousin and somehow trying to convince her that it's gonna be okay. Jesse said, I didn't tell her of his criminal past. I was trying to look out for her as best I could, knowing the things I knew. I had no idea what the hell he was doing. I was really immersed in my own life. I was worried about her, but I had so much going on. So August 1995, she says she wants a divorce.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She moves.

[James Pietragallo]

Out. She's done? Yeah, she's done. She said, that's it. My husband's the panty sniffer. I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Can'T have this. The.

[James Pietragallo]

Greeley panty sniffer. And she's only 23, for Christ's sake. She is so young. She can divorce him, leave this shit in the past and never think about it again and go have a whole life after it. Like, this is a bump in the road. So she wants a divorce. And that's how things sit for a while. In late summer 1995, she wants a divorce, she moves out, blah, blah, blah. October 19, 1995, Tina visits John. She had a night shift that night and told the fellow co workers there that she and her and her sister. Her sister and her co workers, that she was going to visit John that night because he had not returned the divorce papers that he needed to. To sign. So she was going to go over there and try to goose him a little bit. Well, let's not say that that could be bad. Her sister. She told her sister she would call after she Left John's house to make sure she was safe because her sister said, I don't want you going over there. She said, I'll call you when I'm done. I got to get this over with. So the next day, Christina Tina.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is.

[James Pietragallo]

Reported missing. Jesus. She never comes home. So the cops obviously want to talk to John about this. Clearly. Yeah. So they said that based on his history, they considered him more dangerous than just your average person as far as potential for violence and especially sexual violence and things like that. This is Lieutenant Brad Goldschmidt here. He says that's why when Tina was reported missing, even after only eight hours, we immediately sprung into action because of John's past. Like, we didn't just fart around and go, well, we'll ask around about her and call. And they were like, where is she buried, essentially? Or where she. What closet did he stuff her in? Or what basement.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is she in? The 24 hours thing, they didn't.

[James Pietragallo]

Even consider it? No. Not even. No, they said seven or eight hours. They said, we knew they were in a divorce, and by that in itself, with the domestic violence issues as they can be, we immediately suspected him of her disappearance. They also knew that her coat had been spotted at her house, but they didn't know where the fuck she was. So this cop said, By 11:30 that night, we were in Tina's apartment. That's important. We saw her apartment. In her apartment. All indications that what they're telling us is truthful. Clothes from work, her ID badge. This is someone who quickly changed and left, right, came home, got out of her scrubs, put some shit on, and went over to his house. She said. They said everything was alerting us to, this is a girl who was just doing a visit or just going to visit and never returned. So she wasn't planning on running away. She just changed quick. Around 1am, Goldschmidt and the other cops knocked on John's door, and they find his new girlfriend, woman named Gabby. She spoke with them for a minute but would not allow them to search the house. Oh, no, not happening, they said. So they didn't do anything. They said, yeah, no, you can't search the house. They didn't have a warrant, so they just. All they had to do is they had to leave. They couldn't do anything. So they were writing a search warrant for John's house, and they stopped for a second. This guy who was writing the search warrant is Olson. He said her car is missing. Knowing human nature, if something happened, we knew he'd be Solo. So he's not gonna hide her car very far from the residence. Yeah, so we figured it's gonna have to be within walking distance.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Of.

[James Pietragallo]

His house. Yeah. And he said, that's how I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Found the car. Within a mile radius of.

[James Pietragallo]

This fucking house. I started checking parking lots around his house. I pulled into the alley behind the Save A Lot, and there it was. What? Wow.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Think about that. Right.

[James Pietragallo]

Down the street. Right down the street from his house. That's where he hid the car, apparently. Allegedly. We'll find out if it's him or not. So he said it was 3am the car was just about four blocks from John's home. It was locked, parked in an obscure place just yards away from the townhome where John had been arrested weeks prior for trespassing also. So he might have dropped the car off and stopped for.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A quick.

[James Pietragallo]

Peep. Possible, yeah. So it was locked, the car inside. They found Tina's cell phone and wallet in the glove box. And this is 1995 cell phone. Yeah. This is probably for work because she's a nurse. A lot of times nurses get called in, so that's what they do. Her keys were nowhere to be found, they said. When we found her car a few blocks away, we really felt something bad happened to Tina. That's why I assigned a patrol officer on that house, meaning John's house. 5:46am okay. There's an officer parking her police cruiser near the house, looking for signs of John sniffing around. At 5:46, the cops get a call saying John had just parked his car in front of his house. The cop said that John got out of his car, reached inside, grabbed two white bags, and walked into the house. So this cop outside awaits the detectives and said that while she's waiting for the detectives, someone came out of the rear of the house, got into a parked pickup at the residence, then walked back toward the house carrying one or two white objects from the truck. They said, this is the detectives. Goldschmidt said it was almost bang, bam. I just read the trespassing case. I had just mentioned it to Keith. And then Joy called. That's the other cop outside the house. And said that a car just drove up. I jumped in my car, drove out there, and another cop met me. It took me about two minutes to get there. So another cop was there looking into John's car through the window. Inside, he sees a bucket with a white plastic bag stuffed inside.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A wet shovel.

[James Pietragallo]

A wet shovel? A wet. A shovel that has been in the ground in the last and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Then.

[James Pietragallo]

Five hours. Yeah. Or just in the wet.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Ground. Either one.

[James Pietragallo]

Or that. Yeah. And a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Length of.

[James Pietragallo]

Rope. Ooh, wee. That's not great. They said there's no reason a wet shovel should be in your car at 5am and there's no fucking legal reason for.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That at all. That's like washing your car at 3am Both of those.

[James Pietragallo]

Indicate bad things. Bad things or you're. I've done that. Just because I'm bored at 3am and I'm an insomniac. Yeah. So I've. Like in Phoenix, I go to those 24 hour. I wasn't trying to hide evidence. I was just bored. And that's when.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I was up. You don't have to tell me, James. I don't care if you.

[James Pietragallo]

Were or not. There's so many more, Jimmy, you don't even know. So, yeah, if you're a night person, why is it okay for everyone else to do your shit at 10 in the morning when I'm trying to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sleep? Fuck you. 3am.

[James Pietragallo]

Washing a car. So they had the officers surround the house in case that he decided to take off. So they walk back to the back door and knock. It's not his girlfriend. Sorry. His aunt answers. Gabby. That's his aunt. She said. She said, I walked up to the back door. The cops that, I walked up to the back door and she said, he's in the shower. There was another sinking feeling because we know that, shoot, he's probably washing away.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Evidence.

[James Pietragallo]

Right now. Right? I almost walked in, then they said, but they didn't. And they were calling the district attorney trying to get a warrant. They need a warrant. So they waited for word that if they have enough probable cause to enter, they call back to the office, go, is there enough probable cause here? The cop said. I said, he's inside. And she tells us to make contact. So Gabby says, he's in the shower, and I'm telling our evidence. I'm saying, our evidence is going down the drain. And finally they said, okay, you can enter. So they knock on the door again. And the cop, Goldschmidt, said, I went back and I said, gabby, I need to talk to John now. That's when she said I was mistaken. John's not home, Gabby. Yeah. You know, then I saw a figure move past her and the bathroom door open. She came back and lied. And I said, okay, step aside. Get out. I knew it was a lie. That gave me the exigency to enter that house without a warrant and to try to preserve any evidence of Tina his whereabouts being destroyed. I didn't go in there to arrest him. It was to preserve evidence. They said it would have been entirely different if John had come to the store in a T shirt and said, I don't know where Tina is. They said we would have probably questioned him briefly and then walked away with our thumbs up our asses because we would have had nothing. But instead they enter the home and announce to John that they're coming in. John is wearing a black T shirt and jeans on a cold morning. He jumps out the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Back bedroom window. Why would.

[James Pietragallo]

You do that? And fucking. He's barefoot, by the way, on a frosty ground. And attempts to run away.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In.

[James Pietragallo]

The backyard. Slipped. No. One of the cops that was out there waiting. The joy. She said, freeze. And pulled her gun out. She said she aimed her gun at him, told him to get down on his knees, which he does, because he is a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Pussy. Remember that.

[James Pietragallo]

He's a coward. He's a coward. Another officer arrived, helped take him into custody. He later claimed that the cops brought. Broke his toe in the struggle. They said that was complete bullshit. They said, yeah. The only thing he ever said, though, is, I want a lawyer. That's it. Which normally he'll try to talk his way out of things, right? When it's this, he just says, I want a lawyer. Which means, you know, the legal system. So now Aunt Gabby's pissed off at the. At the cops now.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Which is ridiculous. They came in her house.

[James Pietragallo]

Without a warrant. She went and took a shower to get ready for work. She wasn't having.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Any of.

[James Pietragallo]

This. Very upset. Yeah. They said that cops thought that she was hiding evidence, too. She lied to them. They said, why did you lie? And she said, I didn't know he was here. Okay, so that's that. He keeps getting fucking.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Keeps getting fucking. Why is.

[James Pietragallo]

He so likable? Excuses. He's full of shit. He's a manipulator. And, I mean, he convinced Tina, a smart woman from a good family, that he was a good guy. He's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Full of shit. And an.

[James Pietragallo]

Oncologist nurse, too. Yeah. Now, the great thing about this is they're not arresting him on anything. They don't know what happened to Tina. But they do find out that there is a trespassing charge from a separate incident that they could arrest him for. So they go ahead and arrest him for that. And that'll at least keep him in jail for a minute while they figure out what they. The fuck's going on, keep him from running away. So he's Arrested now when he's in the patrol car, he said, why am I being arrested? And this is just a uniform cop who held him at gunpoint is transporting him. She said, I don't have any information.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To give you. They.

[James Pietragallo]

Told me to. So they sit him down at the station. 7:14am, metal table, plastic chair. The cop who sat him down immediately noticed a long scratch mark along the right side of his face, just under his eye. Not great. She went to another room and watched him through the live video feed as well and saw him start chewing his nails, really getting in there. Two minutes later, a detective who'd been at his house that morning came in and told him to stop doing that. Yeah, so John started picking his fingernails, trying to clean under him, you know, where there's. Yeah. So he. They said he quietly, he would work to clean out all the nails. And the detective, Goldschmidt again said, he's destroying fucking evidence. Go in there and babysit him and don't let him do that. So they do. So for the next hour, he sat in there in the interview room. They tried to talk to him. And basically he's just trying to find out what they know. This is a fishing expedition for him, not the other way around. He knew he was being filmed. He knew the police were on the other side watching. So he's, like, talking out loud to them. One of the cops said, after we handcuffed both hands to the wall, he repositioned his chair so he could reach it. He kept trying to chew his nails. They said he was desperate and they're trying to put together an arrest warrant for everything they have so he doesn't Skip Town. At 8:46, they returned to take photographs, and John fought them, keeping his body in constant motion to keep them from getting a clear shot with the camera. Then they took evidence from his car. A bucket, a white plastic trash bag, a round pivoted, round pointed shovel, a level, a small red flashlight on a rope, a small coil of rope, and a Taurus 9 millimeter semiautomatic pistol loaded with five rounds from.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The center console. Why does he.

[James Pietragallo]

Have all that? Hmm. That sounds like a murder burial kit. No. So they tow his car to the impound lot for further evidence tracking or processing. And they have tracking dogs sniff for potential decomposition and all that kind of shit. They continued to collect everything they could at his house. They found wet, muddy clothes piled up in the bathroom, along with wet, muddy boots and water stained glasses on the counter. Inside one of the bathroom drawers, they found two of Tina's credit cards. Oh, and put that in the evidence list. Okay, that'll come up later. The evidence list, remember that they found in another spare bedroom items, more items here. Now at the same time John is in jail and they're trying to figure out what the fuck is going on. So they are, while he's in jail they're trying to figure out was there domestic violence here, was.

[Jimmy Whisman]

There any warning signs.

[James Pietragallo]

What'S the deal? Evidence that we could have to tie him to this. So they're searching for things they didn't find much. Much later they'll find a couple of people who had some things to say. But Tina's very private, she doesn't tell everybody that. So family members said they knew of no domestic violence. But some of her siblings confided that they thought that John was strange and often lying and hiding things from Tina. So there's that. Now police are just trying to figure this out. They said that he's a peeper. He's all this, did he take the next step? So they're like, did he dump her somewhere? By his demeanor and the shovel and all that, they're like he fucking killed her and put her somewhere, period. She's muddy and everything else. They found out that John loved to target shoot in some gravel pits in Pierce which is about 12 miles north of the Greeley. This is Tina's dad told police about the gravel pits which had big mounds of dirt there. He said that's where his son in law took him to shoot once. And it was John's favorite shooting spot. And Tina's dad thought that might be a good place for him to hide the body. So they go to the gravel pits. The next day, October 21st, they're there. They arranged with the national guard to shoot aerial photographs. They search the Black Hollow reservoir south of the gravel pits. They bring several canines. They have this is an all hands on deck fucking shot here. Around one o' clock they take the dogs over to the reservoir. They noticed a boot imprint and dry irrigation ditch next to the reservoir that they thought could be a clue to this case. They bring other bloodhounds looking for things. They search the entire area. They have dive team members from the fire department dead serious, full on search. They find ugats here. Nothing, nothing, nothing. So after a while they just suspend the searches because they're like, we'd have to search the entire state. We have no idea where to start here. So police had contacted Tina's co workers, John's co workers, neighbors, friends, everybody. They could even literally their mailman to see if he had any dirt. But they couldn't find anything but just bullshit and rumors. And, you know, I heard this from this person. So they didn't know what to do. Now the cops are stopping looking, but the family isn't. Her family is hardcore looking. They put thousands of flyers up. They organize teams of searchers to search certain. I mean, they go. They want to find.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Their goddamn.

[James Pietragallo]

Daughter. Oh, yeah. Nine kids or not, they're like, we don't want eight, we want all nine. This is no way. So police, then talk.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To.

[James Pietragallo]

Cousin Jesse. Okay. And Jesse's living in Denver on the weekdays and spending the weekends in Greeley so he could visit his daughter. The cops were asking about Tina. Jesse said he hung his head and said later on, quote, when they said she'd been missing for 24.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Hours.

[James Pietragallo]

I knew. Yep. Jesse knew all about John's behavior. And when Tina had left John in the summer of 1995, Jesse says they had a short lived affair. Jesse and Tina. What? Yeah. He said she ended it when she began seeing someone else while awaiting for her divorce. She's moving on. Jesse believed if John knew of that affair that he had with Tina, that John would have killed him. And he said that, but he said that Tina told him once that if anything ever happened to her, John's the one who did it. So that's the only info he really has to offer is that here's something that might have pissed him off and she was scared that something would happen to her. So, yeah, they're searching. They printed thousands of flyers. The family. It's a lot. It's a lot. November 1, 1995. Police head to Sunset Memorial Garden, which is a cemetery, following up on a tip they'd received earlier. John had worked digging graves in the summer of 1991. Yeah. Hey, everybody stay in school or be real funny. I don't know what to tell you. One or the other that worked for us, but it might not work for you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know. He's done every awful job and a lot of them have helped him. Further.

[James Pietragallo]

Training, career training. Yeah. Yeah. So the night of Tina's disappearance, there were three open graves in the cemetery, which sat directly across the highway from Tina's apartment. That thing. So Goldschmidt asked a guy who was on duty on shift at the cemetery, is it possible someone could hide a body in these open graves? And the guy who worked there said no. When the graves are dug, a cement vault is immediately lowered into the grave to Prepare the grave site for the coffin. It wouldn't be possible for anyone to move this vault and under or around it. It just wouldn't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Be their thing. They're big, they are thick. They're 8 inches thick. Concrete caskets that a.

[James Pietragallo]

Casket.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Goes in. Exactly. And then it has a concrete lid on.

[James Pietragallo]

Top of that. It's a lot under the ground there. So this guy said he did remember John when he worked there. He said he told the cop, after reading about his wife's disappearance in the newspaper, I thought I'd look around here and see if there were any places John could have hit a body. So the cops had the same idea this guy had. So the cops said, did you find anything? And he said, we checked the areas where the cement vaults are kept. There are many crevices that would be big enough to place a body in. We checked all those areas. There was no body. So they searched dairies, they searched wells, sewers, abandoned farms. Everywhere they searched, they said. Goldschmidt said, I wouldn't say we searched top to bottom throughout the county, but a good portion of it and Larimer county, too. FBI reports showed no DNA, no fingerprints, nothing linking Tina to John's clothes or her car or his. No physical evidence. Plant life and sand collected from Tina's car and John's boots were coming up with little. Also. They didn't match either. So Goldschmidt said, it was frustrating. We had some tips that were better than others that were more plausible just by virtue of where they were and what we knew about what was discovered in John's car. In places he may have been. Some tips. Seems like they had potential and the majority did not. They check at his job here, call center in Greeley, where he called in sick the whole week of her disappearance. Right. They just said he was very quiet. He was a loner. That's it. There's a hair lady, lady that cut John's hair about a week before Tina's disappearance. She said that he seemed distraught and that he blamed his depression on the breakup of his marriage. She said that his talk made her uncomfortable as it was so intimate. He complained to the young woman that he'd missed three days of work, sitting in his bedroom in the dark, trying to deal with the breakup. She said that he told her that he finally decided to pull himself together. But he kept bitching, though. She said, he said, I gave her everything. I can't understand why she's leaving. This wasn't someone who's been cutting his hair for years and Knows him. This was his first visit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To.

[James Pietragallo]

The salon.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Nice. Jesus Christ. Thanks to.

[James Pietragallo]

Anybody that'll listen. That's amazing. Any of a stranger. John also told her that his wife was seeing another man and she kept him in a state of confusion. And she said she wanted to work things out one minute, then wants a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Divorce.

[James Pietragallo]

The next. Right. A couple weeks later, the cops get an anonymous call from a woman stating that she had spoken with someone who knew an inmate who roomed with John in the jail, who bunked with him in there and said that he talks in his sleep. And the inmate had told her that John said, in his sleep, I cut her up and fed her to the pigs. Oh, this becomes a very common one. There's a bunch of people who say that they heard him say, I cut her up and fed her to the pigs. Two weeks later, a Greeley resident called Rex Tincher called police to report a conversation with John at a bar the night before Tina's disappearance. This Rex told Goldschmidt that he had run into John at Rafferty's, a bar in west really. At about 11pm the two men sat down for a drink. They commiserated about their problems with women for 10 minutes, he said. John seemed upset when the conversation ended. And he said, quote, too bad we can't just kill him, this guy said. That was an odd.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Thing to say.

[James Pietragallo]

It was bizarre. Yeah, that's a strange thing to tell. Again, a stranger. So he was sentenced to nine months in jail for harassment and trespassing. This is in pervert court, I'm gonna call it. You know. He pleads guilty to violating the conditions of a suspended sentence he received in harassment case the year before for the woman he followed the same day. He also appeared in court to face a felony weapons charge. That Taurus 9 millimeter in his. In his car. As a convicted felon, he wasn't allowed to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Carry.

[James Pietragallo]

Any guns. Nope. So they found one in his home and one in his car. He pleads guilty in March of 96 to the trespassing charge in the other case in exchange for the gun possession charges being dropped in a plea agreement. And they sentence him to, you, sir, may fuck off. Six years.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In.

[James Pietragallo]

Prison. Finally. Wow. They said, noting his past, like, normally, I wouldn't be giving six years for this, but you have earned every day of this shit while he's in prison. They can really follow up now, but they keep getting these leads, quote, unquote, that are more like just dead ends and false trails and just shadows of nothing, basically. So Tips come in and police would interview anybody. They didn't care. They had nothing. So they need to interview anybody. Um, they did. They said, unfortunately, our investigation at the beginning was kind of rerouted from investigating John to trying to find Tina. Everybody was put in that direction, including investigators, and we shouldn't have been. He said, we should have thought from the beginning, she's dead. Investigate him. But instead, they were trying to find her. Um. April 29, 1996. Goldschmidt goes searching from the air, repeating areas that they searched on foot. A trailer court, some town over here, gravel pits, Barnesville, areas where they had once lived in that area. May 13, 1996, another call came in from a man whose friend said he overheard John in jail saying the best way to get rid of a bodies to feed it to the pigs. We've had this come up several times, so many times. There's a psychic, a psychic who sent Mike and Mary Ellen, Tina's parents, on a field trip to Wyoming, a tip about an old mine that sent them all the way on private property to some closed down mine. They could have been shot. They could have fallen in a mine. They found nothing, obviously. July 31, 1996. Weld County Jail inmate Robert Brown tells Detective Goldschmidt he once served time with John. In that time, while they were incarcerated, there was one instance in which John appeared to be drugged from some medication he was taking. So this guy said, what happened to your wife? As they lay in the bunks, John, he said, smirked and said sarcastically, they'll never find her. I cut her up. Brown said that John had either buried or burned the body, but he couldn't remember which. He also told the detective that he talked to other inmates who had apparently heard the same story from John. But Goldschmidt could find no other inmates who claimed to have heard that. A month later, another call came from a woman whose mother knew something or knew someone who was housed in jail with John. This person said that John admitted to shooting Tina, then burying her in the Red Feather Lakes area of northwest Fort Collins. Northwest of Fort Collins, also in the foothills of.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The.

[James Pietragallo]

Rock Mountains. Yeah. So they contacted the mother who was afraid of giving police information and said she firmly believed John would come back and kill anyone who provided the police information so she wouldn't talk. By the end of September 1996, there's a psychic named Mary or Nancy.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Miller that's.

[James Pietragallo]

Talking. Another one? Yeah. Mary Ellen, Tina's mom, convinced Detective Goldschmidt to talk to the psychic. Okay, now, cops kind of Discount psychics, obviously, but Goldschmidt said anything. Who knows? You know what I mean? What the fuck? He also said, about a decade earlier, Goldschmidt worked a murder case in which a man killed two women in Fort Collins, and his girlfriend at the time led police to one of the bodies, claiming only psychic abilities had led her there. That was his girlfriend, Goldschmitz. So he said, you can't discount people who claim to be psychics. They may just be using the psychic angle to provide more information. Whenever I get a psychic tip, I always think about that case. And if there's an ulterior motive, they might be the murderer. That makes sense. In this case, the psychic told Goldschmidt that Tina was involved with a married man who was a white male. And on the date of her disappearance, they met at a restaurant with the word Sizzler in it. Gee, wonder which one that was.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Sizzler. Maybe West. There's also.

[James Pietragallo]

Western Sizzlin in. Yeah, you know what? Yeah. Or isn't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

That Western.

[James Pietragallo]

Skillet? Western sizzling. Oh, it is. Okay. I thought there's a Western skillet at all those truck stops. Or iron skillet. Never mind iron skillet. Yeah, there you go. I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Mixed them together. It could be Sizzler or.

[James Pietragallo]

Western Sizzling. Both. This is Sizzler. They both have Sizzler. She said Tina was gonna break up with this person and tried to do it at the restaurant, but they began to argue loudly. Her boyfriend suggested they go somewhere private, and they went to a motel in Greeley. The psychiatrist said there. They got into another argument, and the man killed her in the room by breaking her neck. He wrapped her in a blanket and put her in the trunk of her car and began driving north of Greeley. He didn't know what to do with her when he drove past a church with a cemetery. He decided to do something with her as soon as possible. About a mile past this church, he stopped and threw her out of the car on the left hand side of the road near a culvert. This psychic said the married man has since divorced his wife because she found out about the affair and what he had done. But none of that explained John. So they're like, this doesn't connect any of our dots here. That's not our guy. 10-10-96. So we're talking. A year later, Goldschmidt receives a call from a Florida truck driver who said he saw a woman working at a restaurant there who looked exactly like Tina. Goldschmidt called in an assist from the county sheriff over there faxed over Tina's picture and the officer said she does look like Tina. She just had her second baby and her mother lives in Florida. I don't think this is your girl. Okay, so he just happened to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Look like Tina. He thought that she ran away to Florida to be a.

[James Pietragallo]

Server, a waitress rather than a cancer nurse. You know, there's only one blonde girl in Florida, obviously. So they had no tips. Dried up, nothing happened. Then there's a psychic reading. This is Mike, Dad, Tina's dad. He has a psychic reading with a man named Jonathan of the Psychic center of the Rockies. By the way, it's all psychics now. You have nothing else? This is the transcript from this call. This is great. He says, okay, I can just tell you what I get and then you're going to have to take it from there. I don't know how else to explain it to you. Okay, it seems like, why did I do that? Well, I need more information than that, don't I? It's almost as if a green automobile was involved in this. The man that was involved in this had darker hair, a little bit taller than she was, about 185in weight. His eyes are dark. In fact, it almost looks like there are two men involved in this. I can't make out the other guy. I don't think he's the one that did the deed. He was paid to haul the body. The woman's dead. Did.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You know that? So.

[James Pietragallo]

We got it. Tina's dad said we suspected. And the psychic said, because I don't feel a heartbeat around her at all. And I usually do and I don't feel anything at all. Okay, what's that? Canyon. Canyon City. Canyon Road. Canyon street, you remember? Okay, it's kind of like one of those roads. It's like a two lane road that goes straight and then drops down a little tiny hill, comes up and then curves to the left and there's like a little tiny barrier. It's a metal barrier with white, with these white looking or light colored posts. She's on the other side down into kind of like a little bit of a gully. And she's buried there. I'm not getting a real clear picture. She'll be very hard to find. How long has she been gone now? A year and a half. Then the psychic said her husband had something to do with this. How come they haven't caught him? And the dad said he's in prison for other crimes. And the psychic said, is he okay? He was arrested the Night she disappeared, dad said. And the psychic said, that's why I'm seeing there's another person involved. And dad says, my wife and I suspected it. So the psychic says, yeah. So she just got into the wrong place at the wrong time. To be quite frank, I don't know what kind of detail you wanted me to go into, but I'm not going to tell you how she died or anything along that line. I don't think you need to know. Okay. You'll find that out later. But it's a sense of. She fought them tooth and nail, I'll tell you that much. What's her birth sign? Dad says, you know, because he's a 60 year old man, he has no fucking idea. So the psychic says, birth date's fine. They say March 17th. And they say, okay, she's a Pisces in the cusp of Aries, which would make her very argumentative at times, but a lot of spunk. It's kind of interesting. This goes down, down into the gully. Like there's some green stuff around her too. I'm not sure what that is. She has not been dumped into a river or anything along that line, so you don't have to worry about that or into a lake. But it could be like a railroad track pretty close to kind of like the side of a mountain. So you need to get a map. So they said, she's in this state. And he said, yeah, in this state, as a matter of fact. So they had time, unfortunately. And he said, yeah, he did. And she lived here, correct? She did. Lived here, yes. Really? So the psychic said, if she is found, he will get a death sentence. And the guy that helped him out may be this way. The guy is a bisexual. He was abusive. He was. This could have been a boyfriend's type scenario for him that. What's the word I want to use? Ruthless type of individualist. And I think that's how all this came down. Plus she knew too much. She knew what they were all about and one more than one area, the crimes been committed and they needed her out of the way. That's how it came down. Because he thought he wouldn't be convicted of anything if she was out of the way. None of this makes sense because all the stuff that she knew. So the guy wasn't too smart in that area. Okay. I want you to remember that and I don't want you. And I don't know what else I could possibly tell you. Anything else you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Want to know?

[James Pietragallo]

Where she at? So Goldschmidt looks over all of this and decides this is classic. Somebody getting grifting the information off of this poor person and spitting it back in their face. October 97, a new tip comes in here. Goldschmidt felt he might have something here. A guy called and said he pulled a truck out of an alleyway at the 100 block of 14th Avenue in Greeley and found an unusual depression about 2 1/2ft wide and 4ft long. So Goldschmidt got a shovel and went out there. Yeah. And he dug and dug and dug, and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He found something.

[James Pietragallo]

What'd he find? Buried garbage. December 97, a psychic in Texas forwarded police a letter describing Tina's whereabouts. He said, I see a tall, lanky young man who fiddles with a chain all the time. The psychic also put a map in saying where the body was and as a side note, stated that if you put that map on top of Colorado, the location should be evident. So like, like your One Eyed Willy's gold, you got to put the thing so it lines up just right. He said there's a burned out field and what looks like the top of an extinct volcano nearby. And then said woodworm and telepathic bond were also written on the pages as well. As there was a witness to the husband's comings and goings in the apartment that day. Also a clue in the bed itself on a piece of gold fabric. None of this helps. 2.98, a man called and said two of his friends told him that when Tina disappeared, John was in the process of expanding his mother's basement. He said the two girls said John had contracted with cement workers but canceled them at the last minute and said he could have buried her in his mother's basement. Okay, that didn't work out either. August 4, 1998. A Weld county inmate, Thomas Loveland, who was a cellmate of John's in 96, wanted to make a deal. He said he'd give Goldschmidt all the information he gleaned from bunking with John if the officer would help him get back on work release detail, which had just been revoked. Now, Goldschmidt said this guy really had some credibility. He said that they spent a lot of time talking. One night, they talked till 4am and he said John gave him specific details of where Tina's body was. Loveland said John said he did not kill Tina, but he knew where the body was. He directed Goldschmidt toward a lake in rural Weld county out near Sterling, several miles northeast of Greeley in the Grasslands. He said, if you turn at a pump house on the southeast corner of the intersection and go back toward Greeley, you'll come upon a farmhouse. Directly across this house is a dirt road that goes into a lake which is fed by a large irrigation canal. They weighted down Tina's body and put her in the lake. Yeah, they don't find shit there. They find anything, they drain. They drain the fucking lake. It took a week to.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Drain the lake. Oh, my God.

[James Pietragallo]

To find nothing. To find nothing. And they said that discredited him. 1999, a body is discovered in Laramie, Wyoming. Female, similar age, turns out, not Tina. That same year, 1999, John is paroled to live with his dad in Vegas. That's gonna be a wild. What?

[Jimmy Whisman]

Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

In Vegas. Wow. So he moves to Vegas, and first year, he's got an ankle monitor. Now they're deciding, do we go after him or do we wait for more evidence? What.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Do we do? What do.

[James Pietragallo]

We do? Yeah. So they said that this is a capital case, first degree. And the prosecutor said, I decided, let's wait. We had a number of cases where we waited and the defendant was dumb enough to fuck up. Basically. They said, maybe that'll happen because if they bring him in too early and he gets found not guilty, then they can never try him again. Even if they find Tina with, you know, his driver's license, stuff down her throat, he.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Still can't prosecute. And maybe this will stop psychics from muddying the waters because there's so many calling in, just giving vague ass shit. If you're such a psychic, where the.

[James Pietragallo]

Fuck is she? Yeah, tell me exactly where to look. March 17, 2000, her 28th birthday. By the way, that is Portina there. The district attorney said that he got an anonymous call. A man with a Mexican accent. Said he had information about the case. He said he wanted the DA to promise not to seek the death penalty. Then the guy hung up. But then he called again in the afternoon saying the Sandoval family has property in Red Feather Lakes. Remember that one.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Guy.

[James Pietragallo]

Said that? Yeah. And John used to spend a lot of time there. A cabin burned down on this property. You need to look there. Then they hung up. So they end up finding this property, the Crystal Lakes subdivision of Red Feather Lakes. In May of 2000, they notice a pile of rocks in a small clearing near the property, which been obviously been put there by somebody. The pile of rocks was about 2ft wide.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And 6ft long. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

Like a grave. Oh, boy. So they Contact the property owner, who said, yeah, I piled those rocks there myself in 1998. So they went, okay, never mind. More searching in the area revealed there had been fires there in the last several times. They search everything and they said that fire. The owner said their cabin burned down in 81 when a plane crashed and started a fire. They find nothing. They get bloodhounds and everything else. Nothing. There is a dog that has a hit. They dig up the area, but nothing's there. Yeah, it's a false set. Late 2000, more tips about a grave near the Pierce gravel pits where they had searched earlier. A man said a friend of his was living across from the gravel pits. And after an argument, she said she took off walking toward the gravel pit where she thought she lost her watch and the next day went out looking for it and stumbled across a grave. And this person said, that's the Sandoval grave. You're never to ask me another question about it, and you better be quiet about it. Oh, so no, that didn't work out either. In 2002, a death certificate is issued for a well district court judge ruling that there's enough evidence that she's dead. That's just to release things and let all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The.

[James Pietragallo]

Things work. Paperwork. February 2005, a woman called police stating that the month before, Zachary Patton was telling people that John forced him to help bury Tina's body. Patton, whose sister worked at Sunset Memorial Garden Cemetery, where employees had already had searched and police had visited, told friends that there were three open graves that night and Tina disappeared. He said he had to move a board from the top of one of the graves and dug a deeper hole than that was already dug. And he said he placed Tina's body at the the bottom and then covered her. So the officer followed up with cemetery officials and learned that three graves had been drugged for burials. On the 20th, they determined two of the graves would have been impossible to penetrate. And they. They as they already had a concrete slab placed at the bottom, and both were quite visible from the highway. The next day they found. They found this woman who said that basically the cops should know that she's not there in these gravel pits. So they basically, they're looking around. They found nothing. The police, one guy here said after six, this woman, I'm sorry, Cassandra said after about six months after we met Zachary said he needed to get something off his chest because it was bothering him. He said the police were dumb and then they needed to be looking beneath a grave. He said John Sandoval picked him up and at either his house or a friend's house. And they drove to Sunset Memorial Cemetery together. They found a grave, pulled Tina's body from the trunk of the car. Now, this is a woman making a secondhand story, though not someone saying they did this. This is somebody else saying secondhand, put the body at the bottom of an open grave and covered her. He said he saw a bloody shovel with dirt on the inside of the car. He said John threatened to kill him if he told anybody. He said this woman said that he said he'd been having nightmares and couldn't see Tina's face. And he was crying. And they said, is Zach the type of person who would fake cry? And she said, he's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Done it before.

[James Pietragallo]

He does this. He's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Full.

[James Pietragallo]

Of shit. Yeah. So they said, why didn't you report this sooner? And she said, honestly, I didn't believe him. He lied so many times, and the story seems so unbelievable. Please don't tell him I told you. So then Zachary Patton, the guy they're talking about, shows up at the Greeley Police Department and they show him a picture of Tina Sandoval and say, recognize her? And he said, no, not really. And they said, do you recognize the name Tina Sandoval? He said, from the newspapers. That's the chick who got killed by her husband and he fucking ditched her somewhere. Right? Yeah. He said, my sister worked at Sunset Memorial Garden. She told me police came out to the graveyard several times and were questioning people about the graves that were open that night. They said, well, where were you during all this? And he says, oh, I was at a party doing methamphetamine and drinking alcohol with a bunch of people when a friend mentioned he had shot someone between the eyes years before and that it wasn't an easy thing to do. He said, then it got over to the Sandoval thing. So I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Just started talking.

[James Pietragallo]

I believe him. They said, you didn't do this? And he said, no. He said, man, I don't know anything about this. I never met Tina or John Sandoval and never heard anyone say they personally knew about this. I have a tendency to try to make myself look cooler.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Than I am. I'm not.

[James Pietragallo]

Cool at all. I took a bunch of meth and drank booze and wanted to be as cool as this other murderer. That's all he said. Honestly, I only made the story up to look good. He said, let me take a lie detector test. I'm telling the truth. And he was. Yeah, he was telling the truth. Just made some bullshit up. May 2005, Mike, Dad, Tina's dad, contacted the detective with a story. His friend's daughter had been having dreams. Tina was coming to her, telling her where.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Her.

[James Pietragallo]

Body was. Really? The daughter said that didn't know her father was friends with Mike, nor did she know anything about the Sandoval case. They didn't know anything about that. Police were unable to talk with her until July 2005, when she was in the Weld County Jail after being arrested on drug charges. She said, I started having dreams first about Tina Sandoval being killed. Then I heard from other people that Lori Ortega said that Tina was beaten to death and buried in a slab of concrete at a house near the Pepsi distribution center in downtown Greeley. So, you know, she's got this big story. And she said that she. She dreams of Tina doing all this. She said another man came in the room, asked John what he was doing while he was killing Tina, and John said, shut the fuck up and get out of here. And then John went back to beating her. And.

[Jimmy Whisman]

All of this. It is. I like. Okay. I'm not a fan of psychics, but that one. Knowing that the. The guy. Yeah, Somebody saying that a guy told her that he helped her, but that other psychic said, two guys did this.

[James Pietragallo]

That's too much. That's a lot. It's a lot. So they said, are you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On.

[James Pietragallo]

Any medication? Yeah. She said, no. They said, have you taken any drugs recently? She said, I smoke marijuana occasionally and I used to use methamphetamines regularly, but I have it in two months. I'm sure I've.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Been twice now. Two months. I'm.

[James Pietragallo]

Clean and sober. It's kicked. It's all good. January 2, 2007, another tip. An officer said that he'd overheard a woman talking about how her husband had helped John Sandoval dig a trench immediately preceding Tina's disappearance. They tracked the man down and he said they were there for three. For four hours and remembered them talking about going to an upcoming Led Zeppelin concert in Denver in 1995. The ground was really hard, and they were only able to get 18 inches into the ground. They did a Google search and found that the Zeppelin concert was at the the end of August that year. Giving the timeline for the trench was three months before the. It's before Tina even left him. Makes no sense. June 2007. A woman called to say she was sure Tina was buried under her house in Greeley after hearing her renters arguing and the male threatening the female with burying her beneath the house, quote, just.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Like.

[James Pietragallo]

Tina was. Okay. Police didn't bother looking that one up. Police in November of 2007 get another psychic tip from Mary Ellen. They said they brought cadaver dogs and for three hours they searched. And. Yeah, so found nothing. Late 2008, early 2009, there's some fresh eyes on the case. There's a new DA named, an assistant DA named Michael Roark. He didn't know shit about John Sandoval or anything about him. He said, I'd never heard of John Sandoval. I was in my second year of law school when Tina disappeared. I know it was a huge news story, but it never captured attention in Denver, he said. So the. He wanted the family to know prosecution could still happen. And they were still looking at this. And they. So they present a bunch of shit to the family. And said at the end of the presentation. Rourke said, my thought was, it's not going to get any better with waiting any longer. What are we waiting for? So he said that he would have waited if he was that other guy, the first old district attorney. He said, but the girl hadn't been missing long enough to really show a jury it was much more than a missing person's case. But he said, I remember reviewing the PowerPoint and I wouldn't say there was no doubt, but I felt like they had the right guy and we just had to figure out a way to prove it. I was pretty confident, but at the same time, it was a terrifying proposition, sure to take him to trial and lose. So they said, let's try to put a case together against John and see what we got. So they said, as with any unsolved case, they go back to step one and look over all the evidence because this is fresh eyes. So this Olson, who's been here the whole time, pulled out notebooks and began flipping through the pages. He said, I knew we had to have missed something. Something is here and we haven't discovered it yet. The smoking guns, so to speak. Then he was looking at diagrams of evidence found in John's bathroom. His boots, pile of his clothes, his glasses on the counter. And then he saw it, noted right on the diagram as two separate numbers indicating two credit cards found in the drawer in the bathroom. They had forgotten that was there. That never came up as evidence. That's why they haven't prosecuted her credit cards. Her credit cards that he would have no access to, no reason to have. No. So they said, I look and I see the evidence sheets, that there's credit cards listed I couldn't find anything mentioned about credit cards in the original report. Somebody completely missed it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

They fucked up.

[James Pietragallo]

What the fuck? They fucked up and let this go. They said they were booked in and there was nothing saying they were found or that they were in Tina's name. They were just in a bag sitting over there. She said these credit cards of Tina is one in which she had just used the three days before the homicide were in her possession. He could not have gotten those credit cards from her unless it was.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On that night. Right. He had to.

[James Pietragallo]

Have seen her. Yeah, because she had him three days before, and she hadn't been in any contact with John for 30 days. The cop said they're hidden in the bathroom vanity drawer. So that tells us he had them on him in the bathroom with muddy clothes and quickly hid them in the vanity. No one had found that in 1995. No one had seen the credit card. That's a perfect example of why you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Keep going.

[James Pietragallo]

Back. Oh, shit. So they look at the clothes, the credit cards, and they're looking at all this, and they said John's T shirt was drenched in perspiration. He'd been out in the middle of the night, and it was 20 degrees outside. The perspiration marks were so heavy, they left a ring of salt.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On the shirt. Ew. He'd been working.

[James Pietragallo]

His ass off. He said, this is someone profusely perspiring to leave a white stain. You're exerting a lot of energy, whatever you're doing. And then there's sand found in places where it normally wouldn't be. His pockets in the hood of his sweatshirt. How does dirt get into the hood of your sweatshirt? Because you're down below ground level throwing a shovel.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Over your shoulder. That's how you're.

[James Pietragallo]

In a hole. Yep. Sand, ultimately determined to come from a riverbed of some sort was found in the grommet of the flashlight as well as hidden in the crevices of John's clothes. They said in 1995. I don't think we put together where all the sand debris was, like in his pockets or his hood. We didn't understand the significance. They fucked.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Up a.

[James Pietragallo]

Lot. No kidding. They said also, you can envision it's dark outside, he's doing his work. He's got a flashlight around his neck. He's digging a grave. The glasses, himself, themselves with muddy spots don't mean anything. But if you put it all together, you can envision what sinister acts are occurring. He's digging in the ground.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Mud'S coming up. The rope around the flashlight was to hang it like a necklace.

[James Pietragallo]

On.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A.

[James Pietragallo]

Rope. Yep. Wow. So Roark said, when I got done reading everything, I was left with the very strong feeling that John Sandoval killed her. If we can present everything to the jury that I just read in these reports, the jury will understand.

[Jimmy Whisman]

And.

[James Pietragallo]

Get it. Yeah. He said several things stood out. Things like the background, things we knew about him, his peeping Tom activities, his panty sniffing. He knew Tina had known for a few of those things. The fact that she just up and vanishes within whatever period of time after she meets with John and there's absolutely no trace. That was the most compelling fact to me from everything we knew about Tina, her family and the investigation. She's got nothing. She's not going to do that. No one else has a motive. John has a strong motive based on his personality, his conduct and the time he had available. Then they said there was his behavior. He jumped out of a window when the cops arrived to talk to him about it, and then he wouldn't let him take pictures and tried to get forensic evidence out from under his fingernails. This is not what a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Normal person does. No.

[James Pietragallo]

Not at all. All. So can they get an arrest warrant? They said getting one signed would be difficult because there's no physical evidence to speak on. No body, no crime. That's been the whole thing. Nobody, no crime. They said that's why they haven't done anything. When reading an affidavit for an arrest on murder, judges are used to seeing a murder weapon, a crime scene, some physical evidence links that links the defendant to the death of the victim. Victim showing the victim's body, being able to explain to a judge how she died. How do we know it's a homicide? I thought getting that warrant would be more difficult than the preliminary hearing. He said at the preliminary hearing, we can argue the law to the judge and say, here are all the other cases across the country where juries have convicted on no body cases. We can't do that on an arrest warrant. We have to give the judge all the facts and we've got to hope the judge sees.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The.

[James Pietragallo]

Big picture. Yeah. So they write up the warrant and cross their fingers they're in contact with Vegas police, where John's been living. They.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Get.

[James Pietragallo]

The warrant. Really? They get it. The judge gives it to him. So they go down on June 18, 2009 to arrest him in Las Vegas. Okay. John Sandoval left his house in the heart of Vegas in the early morning hours. Cameras from A local news station were rolling. The cops did everything that way. Yeah, they could do that. They said, john, do you remember us? And he said, no. And he said, I'm Brad Goldschmidt. This is Keith Olson. We're from the Greeley Police Department. You're under arrest for first degree murder of.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Your.

[James Pietragallo]

Wife there. Yeah. So, different demeanor this time. John now sits stoically in an interview room. Seems at ease. Eats a turkey sandwich at some Sun Chips.

[Jimmy Whisman]

From.

[James Pietragallo]

The Subway. Really? Oh, yeah. And assures him, you know, he talked freely with them about his sexual escapades through Vegas after they assured him they wouldn't use that against him. He told police that it seemed odd that he knew he was being held for a 14 year old murder in his hometown, for which he always knew he was the main suspect. Yet he didn't ask one question about it. Didn't ask shit. They said he told several stories through the years about checking in on the investigation every once in a while or even running into Tina in Colorado. But they said that convinced them even more.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He.

[James Pietragallo]

Was guilty. Right. They said, if you're the number one suspect in a murder and 14 years later we show up at your house, don't you immediately say, I ran into her last year at a bar covered with tattoos. He says, none of that. If we arrest you for first degree murder, you're going to sink. You're seeing it all wrong. Give me a second to explain. You know. Hey, hold on a minute. I think you guys are fucking up here. Any normal person wouldn't sit and eat a turkey sandwich and talk about doing drugs and videotaping women in Vegas without asking about the murder. This is crazy. The shit he did in Vegas. By the way, they found in his house. First of all, he's got giant portraits of Tina.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On.

[James Pietragallo]

His wall. What? In his bedroom. Two different giant portraits of Tina in a slinky black dress he's got up.

[Jimmy Whisman]

At.

[James Pietragallo]

His house. Really? Which.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is just weird.

[James Pietragallo]

That's bizarre. Yeah. They go into his house, they found. Holy shit. This is one of the detectives. That's where the mother load came out. They said, we took two. He'd take two photos of Tina and about a hundred videotapes. John also kept his wedding album from his.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Marriage.

[James Pietragallo]

With Tina. Really? He said, I found his ID.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Card.

[James Pietragallo]

From Ames. Whoa. That was.

[Jimmy Whisman]

20.

[James Pietragallo]

Years ago. Wow. I found a check stub from one of his best friends. I took his house. He loaded up a rental car and drove back to Colorado with all this crap. Anyway, John calls his mother in jail. And says I'm their baby now. Says I might as well take advantage of the free health care. Dental, too. The showers are hot and the jail is clean. I.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Want for nothing. They're not gonna give.

[James Pietragallo]

You braces, man. No, I'm gonna get some orthodonture done and maybe some veneers, I'm not sure. Police say they listen to every word John says in jail, by the way. Conversations between him and his mother where they're trying to set.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Up.

[James Pietragallo]

An alibi. Yeah. Saying. Yeah, John said, the sewer pipe in your backyard that I was working on. Did the city tell you to change that or. Because I broke it when we were doing it in the backyard that time. That's how I got.

[Jimmy Whisman]

So muddy.

[James Pietragallo]

Remember? Remember that? She's like, oh, yeah, totally. I remember that. Trying to call this the sewer alibi. Then they get an unlikely tip here. Okay, there's interesting. The night before Tina's disappearance, a guy said that John called him wanting some tranquilizers. He said, I have a buddy who got stuck with a knife and he can't go.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To the hospital. I need.

[James Pietragallo]

To tranquilize him. Yeah. He said I hadn't gotten any dealings with him like that in three months. He said that there was a lot of red flags here. John could have used the tranquilizers to knock Tina out and then kill her. Like, you know, Knives Out Style type shit. So John's cousin Jesse was at this guy's house when the phone call arrived about the tranquilizers. So they said, that's interesting. They said, one may doubt the call from john on the 18th until you saw Jesse's reaction when I suggested the call happen. And he lit up, recalling all the particulars that I didn't offer him. Another friend talks about how weird it was to go over there and he'd have fucking pictures of his ex wife up there. He said he thought that was weird. He goes, I don't have pictures of my ex on my fucking wall. Then they found a friend and colleague of Tina's named Madonna Ewing, which is the most 80s name of all time. So Patrick Ewing married Madonna? Or J.R. ewing, one.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Of the two. If she'd gotten him.

[James Pietragallo]

Instead of Rodman. Totally. And this Madonna told the detective of tensions in Tina's marriage and her impressions of John's increasingly domestically violent behavior, such as once slamming Tina's head against a wall and choking her during an argument. That's the type of shit they need. Now, there's the videotapes. They estimated there were thousands of tapings one over another on many tapes capable of carrying four hours of footage. All edited almost expertly into what they called sexual mosaics of women John had stalked and assaulted. They found 100 plus videotapes in a box in his Las Vegas bedrooms. They said. Found others atop his vcr. Some were even taped over training videos from Sam's club where he worked. He put a piece of tape over it and retaped this. There would be a 30 minute sexual harassment tape from work. He'd steal it and dub it and dub his stalking footage over it. Wow. They said. One of the tapes. Janelle Gross. And there's a bunch of tapes that play out like this. The camera's rolling. When John spied a crying Gross outside the Tao nightclub in the Venetian in Vegas. Are you okay? The shapely platinum blonde looked up to find a short man of average build, graying hair and dark eyes before her as she swiped at her alcohol induced tears in his loosely hanging plaid shirt and Bermuda shorts. John walked toward the young co ed, his sandals flapping against his heels with each step. The constant hum and dings of the slot machine in the background. An air of paternal confidence masked his true intent as he shifted the bag draped over his shoulder, ready to lend a helping hand. John had gotten off from his new job as an apprentice optician at Sam's club earlier that day and most nights he'd go out and doing this. Now this woman said she lost her credit cards on this outing. She came from California, so John told her that. I'll drive you back to your hotel. The MGM Grand a few blocks away. She got in his van. Jesus. By 2000 something we don't know not to get in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A stranger's van. And he.

[James Pietragallo]

Still got one. Yeah, that's what I mean. And she called her bank on her cell phone. And all this. Her short skirt hiked up to her hips, exposing her undergarments as she talked on the phone. This is January 2020, 2007. He found avenues to slip his fingers alongside her legs or hips as he moved about the vehicle. Want to come to my house and smoke a joint? He asked as the handheld camera rolls. While in his van, this increasingly overbearing man subtly maneuvered his camera to film beneath her skirt. Her underwear was pushed back on her legs and she sat on the leather seat. By the way, she'll be a doctoral student later. She didn't know that this camera was on her once. One time where her underwear is clearly visible. He put his hands underneath and felt her butt. She never said Anything? That's what the detective said. I called her and she instantly remembered that night and John. And she didn't like him. She was stunned at the revelations that this happened. She said he was a frickin weirdo. Yeah. She said he parked in the back of the hotel, which she found.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Unsettling.

[James Pietragallo]

And odd. Yeah. And weird. The next day, she said she found her credit cards, which she had misplaced. But also she had John blowing up her phone, calling her incessantly, trying to arrange a meeting. She declined. She said, now that I was sober, I was like, I'm not fucking talking to this gasole. So they said the purpose of the. In watching these videos is to see if a crime commit is committed. One tape. I'll go through this real quickly. Stalked a woman through her hotel as she went to her room. Based on his Google searches and the advertising and everything around and the music playing, this detective figured out it was 2008. This video was made. In the video, he stalks her to her room. She's in a slinky red dress with silver or white trim, barely covering herself there. You know, small dress. Yeah. She walked up the stairs into elevators. She didn't fully close her room door. So later he went back to the room, using the infrared light on his camera to maneuver through the room filled with three sleeping women in two beds. He crept through the room, filmed the other two women in the room before turning back to the first woman. Oh my God. You see his face appear among a collage of white rumpled blankets. Camera flashes to his own face. He taped himself pulling back the covers, rubbing her vagina and.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Removing her underwear.

[James Pietragallo]

Oh my God. He then digitally penetrated the woman and stood over her and masturbated.

[Jimmy Whisman]

This is all. I filmed this. And she was asleep when.

[James Pietragallo]

He did it. Asleep. So the cop said, once I saw the rape, I went all the way back. In the review, she had a white or silver hem that glowed in the lights. He tracked her through the cab line, all the way up the stairs to the elevators. I went through that tape 30 times. He found her outside. Wow. He said, it's a lot of. They said he'd end his nights by hitting up a whore and bringing her back home. That's the detective talking. It seems like he'd get sexually frustrated after all the filming. There was literally a time when he's picking up a prostitute and he's picking through quarters. John negotiates a $300 price down to 100. It's comical if.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It isn't.

[James Pietragallo]

Sad. Jesus Christ. John would have all his paid women slip into a set of stockings and black high heels he'd pull from beneath a dresser. That's what he wanted. That's what he was into. So they're gonna.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Go to trial. Really? Does he know they.

[James Pietragallo]

Have these tapes? Yeah, they're in his house. He knows it. Yeah. This is the defense, okay. Quote, this is a first degree murder prosecution. Without a body, without any blood, he starts singing. Nobody. No crime. Without any DNA, without any fingerprints, there's no time of death, no cause of death, no murder weapon. The time has passed since tina's disappearance. In 2009, John Sandoval was finally arrested after tunnel vision investigation. Yet none of the evidence has changed. The only thing that's changed is the passage of time. John is still the convenient suspect. The prosecution has based this case on suspicion and convenience, but not on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What's important to remember about the People's statements is not what they tell you on the stand, but what they told police in 1995 when they were concerned with Tina still being missing. When memories were still fresh in their minds and how they perceived the relationship. No one will tell you John was violent toward her. She never called 911 for a domestic disturbance. And she never told anyone John was abusing her in any fashion. They didn't get cell phone records. They didn't pursue all avenues. They said that she. The police never investigated where there was two men that had relationships, one with her and one with her cousin. And, you know, where are they? Where's Jesse, who she had an affair with? They said that despite evidence of some unknown mail found on her cell phone and wallet which were locked in her car after she disappeared, police continued to overlook potential suspects. They said what is of importance is what we found on her cell phone and wallet which were in her glove compartment. On the outside.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Is.

[James Pietragallo]

Male DNA. Okay? And John Sandoval was excluded from that DNA. Some unknown male's DNA. One or two males. To this day it's unknown who touched these items and put them in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Her glove compartment. Does it matter? He's got.

[James Pietragallo]

Her credit cards. He's got her credit cards. He's got muddy shit. He's got a wet shovel at five in the fucking morning. Crazy enough for me you're in cuffs at that moment. We'll figure out evidence later. And.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You tell it. Johnny. Why.

[James Pietragallo]

Is she soaked? Anybody in here ever have a Wet shovel at 5 in the morning in.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Their.

[James Pietragallo]

Car? No. No. Okay. They talked. So the witnesses are the cops. The sister, Tina's Sister who made her promise to call. And she said, I was concerned at 12:30, but things can happen and maybe something held her up. I was very afraid as the day wore on and we were going into the evening, and there was no word from her at all. So that's the other thing she said at one point. The last time she spoke to her daughter, this is the mother, was a week before her disappearance. She said, we made some light conversations. She said, how are you and dad doing with your bills? And I said, same as always. We're going week to week and using one fund to pay another. And she didn't say anything else. I know she was going to ask me for money. At the time, I didn't think it was significant. I didn't know that she needed money. Keith Olson, one of the investigators here, who is now with the district attorney's office, said that you talked all about the police shit. Said finding. Talked about finding Tina's car four blocks from his house. That's another thing. You know, all of that shit. A nurse friend of Tina's, too, named Jane Storm tried to convince Tina not to meet her husband in private, as she had planned to do. Said I remember her watching her walk down the hallway and having some concern for her. I remember her leaving the floor and. But because of the conversations we had and the concern I had for her, I just had a not very good feeling watching her walk down the hallway. So let's see here. He is found guilty. Oh, guilty.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Of this crime. He went through trial. I mean, he got her.

[James Pietragallo]

Credit cards, man. Yeah, he got her credit cards. That's a lot. So he is found guilty here. Okay. Which is terrific. Good. That's excellent here. So he is going to be sentenced. You, sir, may fuck off. They give him life, but it's the life that you get where you get.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Parole.

[James Pietragallo]

And shit. Yeah. Then in March 2016, by the way, still haven't.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Found.

[James Pietragallo]

Tina. No. Tina. That's coming. We.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Will find.

[James Pietragallo]

Tina. Okay, great. March.

[Jimmy Whisman]

2016.

[James Pietragallo]

He appeals. Really? The court ruled that the introduction of prior acts of stalking other women as well as domestic violence experts correlating stalkers with murderers, that's enough to reverse.

[Jimmy Whisman]

The conviction. Overturned. What.

[James Pietragallo]

In the fuck? Over fucking turned. So. And the prosecutor said, because that jury found him guilty doesn't necessarily correlate with a new jury looking at it the same way. That's a gamble. So 2016, they say we're gonna retry him. Fuck it. John finally says for a reduced sentence. I'll tell you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Where she is. Yeah.

[James Pietragallo]

We'll take it. Yeah. I'll tell you.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Where.

[James Pietragallo]

She is. Okay. So they said that we ultimately came to the conclusion that we would extend an offer of plead guilty to second degree murder because it was crucial to us that he had to stand up in court in front of the public, and admit that he was, in fact, the murderer of Tina. In exchange for that guilty plea, there was an agreement. He would serve 25 years in the Department of Corrections. So the family said their first objective was find Tina's body. Who cares? I don't care what he does. So they said, it's like you were gambling with the devil, because we know he would only do it to gain something. So.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Where is she? Where did he. What.

[James Pietragallo]

Did he do? The Sunset Memorial Garden Cemetery is where.

[Jimmy Whisman]

He buried her. The one where.

[James Pietragallo]

He. Where he. The one where they've.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Searched multiple times. The one that he worked at and the one that that guy said he.

[James Pietragallo]

Helped him bury. He said he dug a grave further by 2ft and buried Tina under a World War II.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Veteran.

[James Pietragallo]

Who died. Old. Old, old person. So they found.

[Jimmy Whisman]

She was found. So he's a grave.

[James Pietragallo]

That was open. He said he found an open grave site, and it was scheduled for burial. He dug two feet below the open grave and buried the body there. Well, well, down further where they would have looked. Eight feet. Eight feet. And he was wrapped in several layers of industrial plastic. The afternoon burial continued as planned. And she was under the vault. That's how it went. They put the thing.

[Jimmy Whisman]

On after her. Man. I'll bet you that's where that viral tweet came from. Somebody heard this and wrote that. That if you ever murder somebody buried underneath a grave, and then the dogs will.

[James Pietragallo]

Always hit there. Exactly. I mean, it's.

[Jimmy Whisman]

A good plan. They.

[James Pietragallo]

Got it from.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Never found.

[James Pietragallo]

It. Fuck no. They'd have.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Never.

[James Pietragallo]

Found her. Never. So. But that was. That came out. This was only 2017. They found her, so. Wow. The prosecutor said for 7,826 days, 3 hours, and 22 minutes, the location of Tina's remains have remained a myst. One that's haunted her family, investigators, and everybody else. And goes on to say, now she can finally be laid to rest. In a statement, Tina's family said, you might wonder what's it like to be asked to weigh in on a plea offer in exchange for knowing where the body of your loved one was tossed aside. They said this. They were all in agreement on this. So you, sir, may fuck off again. 25 years in prison. He'll receive credit for the Time. He's already served in jail and could be eligible for release as early.

[Jimmy Whisman]

As is 2028. Not.

[James Pietragallo]

A chance, right? Very soon he will serve five years of parole after his release. I would think not. February 23, 2017. Jesse dies at.

[Jimmy Whisman]

52. Cousin.

[James Pietragallo]

Jesse. That's young. Completely natural death. They said, whoa, I don't know why. 2020, they're talking about him being up for parole. They said he's eligible for parole in 2020. They did some wrong math and it was 2020. The detective testifying in front of the parole board said, he's a career criminal. He has a lifelong felon. He's one of the worst criminals I've ever dealt with. We had no body. We had no scene. We had no witnesses, no confession. We had nothing. She vanished. He never came out and said, this is what happened. This is how Tina was murdered. Or this is why I chose this disposal site. I think this case is unlike any that's ever been prosecuted in this country. In this whole country, says world. So his next parole hearing is scheduled for.

[Jimmy Whisman]

2026 this year.

[James Pietragallo]

What the fuck? Tina's family said, we're working as a family to try to keep him put away. He gets good behavior when he's in prison because there's no women in prison. And that's his favorite.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Thing, collecting women. That's gotta be.

[James Pietragallo]

Awful for him. Yep. So Tina is finally buried in a good way at Lakeview Cemetery in Windsor.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In.

[James Pietragallo]

Weld County. Wow. The book that we got a lot of this out of, they did very good reporting from all the police reports and everything. In Tina's shadow, a true story of murder, a husband's guilt, and a family's 14 year vigil for justice. You can see why we couldn't give you that title in the beginning. You'd know what happened. By Sharon R. Dunn. So there you go, everybody. That's really Colorado. We're running way late. I got to hit this up real quick. Definitely. Shut up and give me murder.com. get your tickets for live shows. Nashville, February 21st, your first up. March 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Get in there. Get your tickets right now for those. Shutupandgivemerder.com Patreon.com CrimeInSports $5 a month or above. Get you huge back catalog. New stuff every other week, including this week. You get all the everything. But for small town murder, we're gonna do the Dean Coral thing and Henley, his little partner. And that's kind of a crazy. Wow. That's a wild story. We'll get into what happened to this kid who was clearly forced to do a lot of crazy shit. So we'll do that. Patreon.com crimeinsports and you get it ad free. All. Every show we put out ad free and you get a shout out. Jimmy. Hit me with the names of the people who would never bury us below a World War II veteran. Hit.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Me right now. This week's executive producers are Claude Cavallo. I'm gonna call him.

[James Pietragallo]

Claude Muscle Man. Claude Muscleman. Hanging out.

[Jimmy Whisman]

With the Criterion. Claude Musselman. Wasn't.

[James Pietragallo]

That the guy? Claude Musselman buried in the.

[Jimmy Whisman]

In the yard.

[James Pietragallo]

You're an angel. For you're having the last words real.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Important around here. Claude's a good man. Gary Howard in Oklahoma City. Get the fuck.

[James Pietragallo]

Out of there. Hope you're.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Doing well. Gary. Lisa Stevens, Amber Lounes, Alana Zemel and Neil Pauling. You guys are the best. Thank you for everything you're doing beautiful without you. Other producers this week. Peyton Meadows, Joanne Tinkler, Janice Hill, Willie Goat and Butt. Go eatin Butt. I don't know what he's doing there. I don't this. He's trying to get.

[James Pietragallo]

Me to say something filthy about a.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Eating a goat. You gotta make it much easier than that, man. Ryan Bender. Steffi Hand Pie. All right. That's a real name. Theo Rust. Holly Norman. Lane C. Melanie with no last name. Dean McAnalty. Huh. Jocelyn. Jocelyn Wrangle. Jared Warren. Meredith Dixon. Courtney Harvey. Talia L. Shelby Nicole Cindy Adams. Quinn 6. Nikki's kid. Caitlin with no last name. Megan with no last name. April L. Laura Claire Roswell McIntosh.

[James Pietragallo]

Hank Nitardis.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Boy. Oh, okay. Troy Hill. Josh User. Sue Cece S I S I ting. Ty. Is that what that is? T I G H e Is that.

[James Pietragallo]

Ty Warner. Scott. Tig.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Tig. Tige Tagay. Tige Dan. No last name. Ilham Ahmed. Thank you. Wendy Fleming. Courtney Summers. Mark Maylon. Danielle Schmalls. Jackson Legrand. Hunter Billings. Kylie Scott. Candace Kowalski. Mark Fazza. Nicole Helton. Shelby Boyd. Laura Muse. Christian Guru Lay. Lyle with no last name. Anthony Festa. Brandon Hernandez Allen with no last name. Claudia Brown. Amber Horton. Molly Kules. Jazz with no last name. Rebecca Laylor Leffler. Connie. Connie.

[James Pietragallo]

Hansen. Maybe Coney.

[Jimmy Whisman]

I don't know. Claire Powell. Leo with no last name. Crystal Williams. Keanu Wilson. You can thank Reeves.

[James Pietragallo]

For me knowing how.

[Jimmy Whisman]

To say that. Becky Jean Magia. Jaska Maggio. Melissa with no last name. J.J. howell. Sheila with no last name. Amber Rich. Lonnie Voyles. Sam Hoy Nicole Flax. Alicia with no last name. Daniel with no last name. Amy Brighton, Andrea Adams, Clay Stovall, Danny B. Sarah Montgomery, Kyle kruliki, Christy Miller. Mr. Minnie Muggins. I know that because of your favorite actor. Big cheddar, Autumn DePaul. Liz Duran Duran. John would know last name. Chad Jones, Bridget Huffman. Lori Lee Gomez. Steve with no last name. Richard Winter, Stephanie Nicole Naosha. No last name Cherise Sherice. Maxwell Mason Crier Carol with no last name. Camille with no last name Ernesto Bermudez. Magic with no last name. Magic like MC or Mr. Elizabeth at Lee. Josh Foster. Janice with no last name. Russell Friesen, Lisa Powers, Kenneth Nash. Stupid lamb. I don't know what that means. Heidi Rochelle Mahoney.

[James Pietragallo]

Ricau.

[Jimmy Whisman]

Lynn. What? Bro? I was on such.

[James Pietragallo]

A roll. Briswell. You were cooking. Dude. You had it.

[Jimmy Whisman]

You had it. H.T. smith. Raquel Raquel. Raquel Heigl, Donna Brickell, Melissa Ohana, Jody Arsenault Latoya Love. Rusty Shackelford. Is that. That's somebody right? What is Rush? I don't know.

[James Pietragallo]

What that is.

[Jimmy Whisman]

It sounds familiar. Is that the guy from no. Shackleford is the neighbor in King of the Hill. But is it? It's not Rusty. Is it? Is it Rusty Shackle? All right. Corey Wachter. 616 Barbecue and Fab. Hannah with no last name. Laura with no last name. Amber Brandon. String cheese. My favorite snack. And all of our patrons. You guys are the.

[James Pietragallo]

Best. Thank you. Thank you so much everybody. You beautiful glorious bastards. We can't tell you how much we appreciate all that you do for us. The Mason crazy shit. Thank you so much. If you want to find us on social media or anything about us. Shut up and give me murder.com as dropdown menus take you where you need to be. Keep coming back and seeing us and until next week everybody. It's been our pleasure. Foreign. Is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses. Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates potential savings. Savings will vary. Not available in all.

[Jimmy Whisman]

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[James Pietragallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

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[James Pietragallo]

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[Jimmy Whisman]

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